Project Sunrise

[Rated De]

Originally Posted by Street garbage

Don't know what Dragon Man has heard, I was told at Watermark's this week (so it must be true..) that Management pilots are tripping over themselves to tell line pilots that they Sunrise will go ahead with or without Long Haul Pilots, that the have 200 pilots for their contract company overseas (read: NZAA)...
As for Short Haul, if there is another No vote (results out tomorrow) then the will look expand Jetconnect to domestic operations and expand Network also...
Personally, I think it is all BS, but I would put nothing past them.
Beating will continue until morale improves.
FUD- that's all they've got.

Management pilots...Nothing like a little self pecuniary interest to frame the narrative. Ask the judas creepers what is in it for them and you will find that each one of them gets a bonus...Its not 30 bits of silver but it is enough at least to put your kid through an elite Sydney private school...

As to the 200 contract pilots...BA tried that with Open Skies. The BALPA position was rather simple; Good luck.
What happened to that project? It slinked away under a rock never to be heard of again. Rather like the management sleaze selling you a deal that they personally profit from if you accept.
Ask the purveyors of such "information" so What's in it for you Nathan?
It is all relatively simple. The execution risk of any such "plan" is very high.

[Seaview2]

Originally Posted by Street garbage

Management pilots are tripping over themselves to tell line pilots that they Sunrise will go ahead with or without Long Haul Pilots, that the have 200 pilots for their contract company overseas (read: NZAA)...
As for Short Haul, if there is another No vote (results out tomorrow) then the will look expand Jetconnect to domestic operations and expand Network also...
Personally, I think it is all BS, but I would put nothing past them.
Beating will continue until morale improves.
FUD- that's all they've got.

So what FRMS will this contract company operating under? Good luck with that as currently such flying is not legal in Australia.

Good luck with finding 200 people who want to do Sunrise flying with such fantastic conditions that have been suggested including things like economy paxing. Not to mention the unsustainable crewing level on flights the likes of which have never been done before. The conditions at Emirates are better than what they are suggesting.

Re short haul. Again best of luck. But remember you can’t replace the current pilots with cheaper pilots. It’s illegal if their flying reduces. Good luck with all short haul good will gone keeping the show on the road with the mess domestic currently is on a daily basis. And network is generating such good publicity at the moment isn’t it?!

Folks for once the pilots are in a very strong position and all management have is FUD. Don’t fall for it. LH SH aren’t asking the world, far from it. When management want to start talking some sense I’m sure the pilots will be happy to talk and figure out an agreement where everyone benefits-not just the managers.

[dragon man]

Originally Posted by A little birdie

My point was it’s not quite as the previous poster pointed out. It’s not quite the roster he was talking about and it’s certainly not a pay cut. I’d hate to be doing 180 hours back to back continuously with a couple of ULHs each roster as well. That’s not the intent though.

The deal will get up, or not, on it’s merits but it shouldn’t be blatantly mis-represented.

Ok, where and how please is it been misrepresented?

[Rated De]

Originally Posted by Seaview2

So what FRMS will this contract company operating under? Good luck with that as currently such flying is not legal in Australia.

Good luck with finding 200 people who want to do Sunrise flying with such fantastic conditions that have been suggested including things like economy paxing. Not to mention the unsustainable crewing level on flights the likes of which have never been done before. The conditions at Emirates are better than what they are suggesting.

Re short haul. Again best of luck. But remember you can’t replace the current pilots with cheaper pilots. It’s illegal if their flying reduces. Good luck with all short haul good will gone keeping the show on the road with the mess domestic currently is on a daily basis. And network is generating such good publicity at the moment isn’t it?!

Folks for once the pilots are in a very strong position and all management have is FUD. Don’t fall for it. LH SH aren’t asking the world, far from it. When management want to start talking some sense I’m sure the pilots will be happy to talk and figure out an agreement where everyone benefits-not just the managers.

That is it! There is nothing to fear.

The QSA 1992 is pretty clear what sort of International Flying can be done and by whom..
FWC might have a thing to say about that too.

So Nathan, what's your cut?
(or DFO, Fleet Head etc)

When these "managers" speak, other than with forked tongues it is usually from self interest.
As the saying goes, "Never ask your barber if you need a hair cut"


Little Napoleon's big bluff is just that.
They need a fleet, the A350-1000 with extra fuel tanks is the only aircraft flying that comes close to the hype they generated.
Either they buy it or they don't but their fleet metrics remain an ever festering problem...

[dragon man]

Originally Posted by A little birdie

Maggot’s post 956.



I simply pointed out in response that a PVG, MNL and a single three day domestic pattern (not patterns although I guess three single day patterns also qualifies) was more than the planning divisor and definitely not a pay cut. It’s about 18% more pay than flying those hours without the ULH.

Ok, I’m a simple person so could you supply the figures please. Credited hours plus the hourly rates.

[Jetsbest]

Asturias56 & others, (& at the risk of being wordy...)

WRT your questions there are no simple answers yet. But the views of QF pilots about their work rules are not as convoluted as some would make them out to be.

There are factors built into the QF LH contract, agreed between management and pilots over decades, with real and pragmatic aspects derived from the incremental changes to LH flying during the time the airline went from Super-Connies, to 707s, to 747s, to the 747SP, to 767 & 747-400, then finally A330/A380; Qantas is/was somewhat of a subject matter expert (SME) on the development of long-haul flying. Changes like:

• Multi-sector trans-oceanic to single hop trans-Pacific etc.
• Crews with navigators, radio operators & flight engineers eventually became only two-pilots in the seat at any time.
• Crew rests have improved to where agreement was ultimately reached, through operational experience, on what features the two separate rest spaces for ‘inactive’ crew should have.
• ‘night loadings’ for ‘back-of-the-clock’ (BoC) time spent in an aircraft which had the effect, as a fatigue mitigator, of increasing the value of night flying such that pilots so rostered got more time off under the ‘credit hours’ system. and
• ‘overtime’, which was also agreed to by Qantas, surely in part as an acknowledgement that there should be some inducement for crews to do it at all.

Many feel that, in the last few years, the dissembling from QF management has been astounding! Many point out;

• The present contract is more ‘scientific’ (by virtue of practical experience & long-standing agreement about all the factors involved) than a few spin “research (delivery) flights” with compliant passenger loads & crew.
• QF taking 10 years to introduce the 787 only to then blame the pilots for being difficult when the crew rest didn’t comply with the company’s own agreement, was too tricky by half!!
• The much talked-about contract ‘simplification’ seeks to undo, for expediency & with no scientific basis, the very agreement to which the company is a party.
• QF fails to acknowledge that, especially with the Oz-dollar where it is, QF’s pilot costs are substantially below many, if not most, serious competitors.
• HUGE mistrust brough about by constant denials about what seemed obvious plans (eg “there are no plans for an international low-cost carrier” etc) which came true shortly after the denials.
• The ‘virtue-signalling’ about Fatigue Risk Management (FRM) while;
  * inferring that CASA is already ‘on-board’ with what QF wants,
  * having only assertions to support the direction being taken,
  * stifling access to QF’s own previous LH fatigue research undertaken in the late ‘90s & early 2000s,
  * having such a ‘threatening’ current process for flagging ‘fatigue’ that most pilots would rather just ‘go sick’ or, if they do start into the fatigue protocol, pilots are deducted days sick leave (personal leave) balances anyway,
  * The expediency of circumventing even the sensible aspects (in a FRM sense) of the QF EA which saw JQ’s early 787 pilots doing heavy-crewed BoC flying with no crew rest and often sleeping on the floor of the flight deck rather than try to rest sitting upright in the passenger cabin. (just because other operators do it does NOT make it valid/safe/safer/fair/sound/humane/sensible!)

None of this says change is impossible, or even undesirable. But the massive mistrust of anything said from above is a problem of their own making. The perception of new, even lower, ambit claims after the supposed win-win of a Joyce-proclaimed 30% productivity improvement for 787 flying is galling to all. The supposed ‘contractual excesses’ of a very-few pilots pale into insignificance when compared to the perceived enormous insincerity of QF’s IR strategies. There is never any acknowledgement that perhaps the QF contract was on the right track for ULH flying; QF seems to use only cynical direction of attention to other (typically newer) operations with less-restrictive/lower-cost models. There is never any recognition that pilots have a vested interest in a successful & safe airline in all aspects of its operations; naturally that sometimes includes remuneration too.

It's almost as if the IR philosophy is; Start with a ridiculous, even knowingly unattainable, low-ball plan. That way, when any agreement is finally reached, it will look like QF gave more ground toward the solution.

So, that’s how some see Project Sunrise. If it can be made to work sensibly in terms of fatigue, health & longevity, profitability and passengers, then bring it on. But people would also like to see an end to the snake-oil and implied threats.

[dragon man]

To Jetsbest that is GOLD, sums it all up beautifully.

[dragon man]

Thank you and how many days away have you assumed for the London and JFK patterns? Do you consider 5% is adequate for 1) the larger aircraft, 2) the reduction in overtime rates and lastly the 21/22 hour TOD ?

[ConfigFull]

Originally Posted by A little birdie

OK. To put it simply.

2018 figures.

A330 Current 180 hour divisor= 180 x hourly pay rate= $ 53,236.80
MVF 180 divisor= 180+ circa 18 hour o/t=198 hours. 198 x hourly rate x 1.05= $61,488.50

Difference is about 15%.

If it’s a 160 hour divisor the gap increases.
A330: 160 x hourly pay rate= $47,321.6
MVF: 160 + circa 18 hours o/t (two ULH patterns) x hourly rate x 1.05= $55,277.54

Difference is about 16.5%.

in essence a MVF pilot flying 160 hours earns more than an A330 pilot flying 180 but will work three(ish) less days.

(The o/t I’ve used supposes 1 JFK and 1 LHR. 2 LHRs would yield slightly different numbers).

The MVF rosters you've quoted don't include any night credits! Get back into your management office and spare the rest of us. Doing that roster would be more like 195hr and 175hr on conditions as they are, including 4 sectors that are currently illegal!!

[ConfigFull]

Mate, you're quoting back to me that the rosters include 2 and 3 crew night credits where you get 3/5th of F all because of the few night hours but oh we're just going to ignore that you lose nearly 8hr in night credits per sunrise trip. You're doing exactly what everyone's best friend Nathan is doing, trying to compare a 330 roster to a fantasy land 350 roster. Ask someone on the 787 if they'd like to do longer duties and 170-180hr when they should be doing 145 - that's exactly what this crap is.

[ConfigFull]

I don't know whether you're being deliberately misleading or you just don't get it but you're close at least with the -20% compared to 330. How you can say this crap is the "same credit" is beyond comprehension - look at it the other way, if you took a third of hours off a 330 pilot right now and paid them the same hourly rate, would that be considered a like-for-like comparison to you? You are going out of your way to make the 330 (as it is) and this mythical "don't-worry-guys-it's-the-same-amount-of-work-I-promise!" look the same when really you can't compare them. The 787 deal saw away with (4 crew) night credits and, even amongst one of the worst deals QF has ever seen, the divisor was lowered to 145 to (partially) offset the loss. This 350 stuff is something else completely.

We have an agreement with our employer, there's even an agreement pre-set for the arrival of new aircraft - why on earth you'd want to go down this path is beyond me.

[Asturias56]

"why on earth you'd want to go down this path is beyond me."

I don't think he's advocating it just trying to explain the financial effects of the various possibilities

​​​​​​​

[Rated De]

Surely anything that Stream Lead, former union President says must be met with a turned back.
Surely anything Little Napoleon says, threatens or promises ought be treated the same.


What's in it for you Nathan?

The first point of call, BEFORE being drawn into a management controlled narrative about money is safety.
Management will do everything to draw the discussion back to money for they care little.
Any business capable of the claims they have made about being, terminal, transformed or Jetstar's profitability will twist, exaggerate and manipulate numbers.
They are better at it than the pilots ever will be.

Ask them about workplace health and safety and all you will hear is silence.
Get some science to support their commercial aims. That they will never want to do.

There is a reason why the FAA view ULH as 16 hours block to block.

[Street garbage]

A little birdie stated "Overtime payments would be in vicinity of 28 hours per pattern. (Presumes 22 duty hours each way.... it won’t be for the pedants but swings and round abouts depending on the direction)."

The proposal states 0.5hours of overtime over 12 hours. 43 hours of duty (22+21 per sector) would generate 9.5 hours of overtime. Your figures are inflated almost 300%. 28 hours overtime....LMAO. More management rubbish.

[Street garbage]

Originally Posted by A little birdie

Perhaps read the post again. That was talking about the current EA. IE the black book. These were my exact words:



Maybe if you weren’t so quick to shoot the messenger your comprehension skills would improve.

You blokes are supposed to be professionals. Perhaps if you spent more time using your head instead of jumping at shadows the company wouldn’t have tried such a low ball offer to start off with.

Pot calling kettle black.
Your figure are BS, just like the figure flight ops released to the media about our pay (repeated by Jetstar....)
Current EBA rates and overtime provisions are not being offered for the A350, therefore there is ZERO chance that a pattern like this will generate 28 hours of overtime. You figures are blatantly over-inflated, because current EA rate WILL NOT BE APPLIED TO A350 FLYING.
Maybe if the truth broke out in Coward Street, and you weren't so willing to repeatedly lie, then engagement levels among line crew would be greater than 20%.
And, as one our 73 Captains said to AD recently.."don't mistake our professionalism with engagement."

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

All this quibbling about credit hour comparisons, etc, is perhaps missing the point.

Consider this: in 10 or 12 years time, there’s about a 99% likelihood that there’ll be no 744, no 380 and no 330 - leaving a fleet of 787s and 350s to do all of QF’s traditional international flying, plus whatever ULH stuff they bring in. With the ‘traditional’ LH EA completely gone.

Also, it’s not hard to envisage a scenario where Sunrise gets up, with masses of publicity, banner-waving, and boasts of game-changing - all in time for the 100th anniversary. Alan gets to bathe in the glory of all this, prior to departing into the sunset with GT et al strewing a carpet of rose petals in front of him. Then, after a couple of years, someone decides that the Sunrise business case isn’t as good as it first looked, and those routes get quietly dropped. So you’re back to the traditional LH stuff, but on the new EA that was ‘required’ for Sunrise to go ahead.

Either way, the old EA is gone for good, with no guarantees whatsoever of the promised growth. This is the real agenda, IMHO, and Sunrise is just a sideshow.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Totally agree. Hopefully this time around we aren’t blinded by the company spin.

[Asturias56]

Itsnotthat hard has I think hit the nail firmly on the head.......

Quibbling about overtime may impact your paypacket short -term but the real game changer is the change to what is going to be essentially a world in which anything long haul is flown by 3, quite similar, aircraft (777, 787 A350). With A320 LR's eating into even the long haul sectors as was the game is going to change big -time - be careful you don't sell the pass for a short-term pay issue like overtime rates on an aircraft that may not be in the fleet for very long.........................

[Emmit Stussy]

..... Either way, the old EA is gone for good, with no guarantees whatsoever of the promised growth. This is the real agenda, IMHO, and Sunrise is just a sideshow.

Yep, yup & yes. Tried to make this point last year but didn’t explain it as well as you. JUST SAY NO👎

[lnavvnav]

Why not just wait for the “official” company offer then dissect it apart! 🤔