Project Sunrise
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Todays Webinar:
We are informed that there will be Cannibalising of the incumbent routes as Project Sunrise expands into the current Market Place.
With 50-60 retirements each year expanding to 100 retirements p.a. within a decade with these figures added into the crewing mix.
This Friday is “best and last” offers from Airbus & Boeing.
December 13th the Draft Business Plan goes to the Qantas Board for determination.
AIPA has been given all the expected revenue and cost inputs to assess the Business Plan.
When asked no member within the Webinar would commit to a “hard” crewing figure and each question morphed to FRMS as the focus of discussion. It appears QF are aiming for 4 crew on these operations based on FRMS and CASA approvals.
Paris, Rome, Frankfurt, and Amsterdam are Project Sunrise (direct flight) options.
If Project Sunrise operates Ex BNE, SYD, MEL, to LON it may return through PER releasing the B-787 to other markets.
Qantas holds 4 London slots. It is only using 2.
Project Sunrise options are MEL to LON, SYD to LON, BNE to LON.
Not all Pilots of the A330 or B777 will fly MVF. No discussion on how Pilots are chosen or criteria?
PowerPoints (Based on B-787) highlighting wages offered. These include Allowances as Line Pilot Take Home Pay? Questioned by some call in Pilots as to accuracy?
5 Year Freeze on Type a major part of the Plan.
There has been no depth of explanation or any detail in regard to Rostering & Scheduling, Transport, Crew Rest Facilities, Crew Selection for MVF, MBT after such Flight Operations. No Explanation or detail in regard to any AFDP if in fact, AFDP will apply.
This Webinar appears to be the same “sell & spin” and I could not gather any clarity from what was being offered as there is no clear explanation of how any of this is going to work and therein affect our working lives.
We are informed that there will be Cannibalising of the incumbent routes as Project Sunrise expands into the current Market Place.
With 50-60 retirements each year expanding to 100 retirements p.a. within a decade with these figures added into the crewing mix.
This Friday is “best and last” offers from Airbus & Boeing.
December 13th the Draft Business Plan goes to the Qantas Board for determination.
AIPA has been given all the expected revenue and cost inputs to assess the Business Plan.
When asked no member within the Webinar would commit to a “hard” crewing figure and each question morphed to FRMS as the focus of discussion. It appears QF are aiming for 4 crew on these operations based on FRMS and CASA approvals.
Paris, Rome, Frankfurt, and Amsterdam are Project Sunrise (direct flight) options.
If Project Sunrise operates Ex BNE, SYD, MEL, to LON it may return through PER releasing the B-787 to other markets.
Qantas holds 4 London slots. It is only using 2.
Project Sunrise options are MEL to LON, SYD to LON, BNE to LON.
Not all Pilots of the A330 or B777 will fly MVF. No discussion on how Pilots are chosen or criteria?
PowerPoints (Based on B-787) highlighting wages offered. These include Allowances as Line Pilot Take Home Pay? Questioned by some call in Pilots as to accuracy?
5 Year Freeze on Type a major part of the Plan.
There has been no depth of explanation or any detail in regard to Rostering & Scheduling, Transport, Crew Rest Facilities, Crew Selection for MVF, MBT after such Flight Operations. No Explanation or detail in regard to any AFDP if in fact, AFDP will apply.
This Webinar appears to be the same “sell & spin” and I could not gather any clarity from what was being offered as there is no clear explanation of how any of this is going to work and therein affect our working lives.
Joyce's modus operandi:
To Perth Airport: "If you don't lower your charges, we won't operate any flights from Perth to Paris".
To LH pilots: "If you don't do more (and longer) work for the same wage - essentially less - we'll have to cancel Project Sunrise".
To Airbus/Boeing: "If you don't lower your prices on the A350/B777X, we won't buy any of your new aeroplanes".
Given the likely response to the last two items, I am more convinced than ever that SUNRISE IS DEAD.
To Perth Airport: "If you don't lower your charges, we won't operate any flights from Perth to Paris".
To LH pilots: "If you don't do more (and longer) work for the same wage - essentially less - we'll have to cancel Project Sunrise".
To Airbus/Boeing: "If you don't lower your prices on the A350/B777X, we won't buy any of your new aeroplanes".
Given the likely response to the last two items, I am more convinced than ever that SUNRISE IS DEAD.
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I certainly hope I am mistaken however I had the uneasy feeling listening to the Qantas CEO International on the Webinar that perhaps there had been established a type of in-principle agreement.
An in-principle agreement is a steppingstone to a contract. Such agreements with regard to the principles so negotiated are usually considered fair and equitable. Even if not all details are known.
Else what is the use of taking a Business Case to the Qantas Board this December 13?
Tell me I'm Dreaming!
An in-principle agreement is a steppingstone to a contract. Such agreements with regard to the principles so negotiated are usually considered fair and equitable. Even if not all details are known.
Else what is the use of taking a Business Case to the Qantas Board this December 13?
Tell me I'm Dreaming!
That’s very interesting CC as I’m hearing that the AIPA president has a meeting next week with Qantas and has called for a special committee meeting the next day. I wonder why?
"To Airbus/Boeing: "If you don't lower your prices on the A350/B777X, we won't buy any of your new aeroplanes".
Given the likely response to the last two items, I am more convinced than ever that SUNRISE IS DEAD."
Shark - Boeing are desperate to get orders for any of their range in the wake of the MAX issue - they'll give Joyce what ever he wants and more right now.
Given the likely response to the last two items, I am more convinced than ever that SUNRISE IS DEAD."
Shark - Boeing are desperate to get orders for any of their range in the wake of the MAX issue - they'll give Joyce what ever he wants and more right now.
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Originally Posted by dragon man
That’s very interesting CC as I’m hearing that the AIPA president has a meeting next week with Qantas and has called for a special committee meeting the next day. I wonder why?
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With Stream Lead, former AIPA President comfortably sitting in First Class, the incumbent Mr Sedgwick with a resplendent Linked in Profile, is allegedly eyeing a corner office in Fort Fumble too.
Like the IR negotiator, sitting opposite those he claimed to represent, the pressure is on: deliver the pilots again....
With respect to the domestic pilots how long has "the negotiation" been going on?
Would be an obvious tell if after a few short months, lacking regulatory approval or anything else a "deal" is announced....
Like the IR negotiator, sitting opposite those he claimed to represent, the pressure is on: deliver the pilots again....
With respect to the domestic pilots how long has "the negotiation" been going on?
Would be an obvious tell if after a few short months, lacking regulatory approval or anything else a "deal" is announced....
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My humble take.
have you noted what happened to the share price after these announcements?
Its all “smoke & mirrors”, perception without substance.
Gains/ concessions from the A or B winner will be announced and also from TC, CC and pax. Que share price increase. Whether they have in fact secured said gains.... ???
NS et all has a looong way to go with LH EA. Not withstanding the SH EA....
have you noted what happened to the share price after these announcements?
Its all “smoke & mirrors”, perception without substance.
Gains/ concessions from the A or B winner will be announced and also from TC, CC and pax. Que share price increase. Whether they have in fact secured said gains.... ???
NS et all has a looong way to go with LH EA. Not withstanding the SH EA....
With no news, Qantas resorts to cheap stunts, social discourse and selling car insurance.
With foreign nominee companies embedded in the share register, a dominant domestic position and super funds having to invest in "transport stocks" rumours and column inches will suffice.
Of course briefing selected analysts helps...
Well a big announcement on the last day of the Dubai airshow for "indicative orders" for dozens of copies of a plane that doesn't yet exist for routes that currently can't be flown legally wouldn't cost anything - and it might move the share price!
More rubbish from rated de. I get it, a group of 744 pilots are annoyed that the fleet is about to be retired and that not every future aircraft will be on 744 pay plus. They have actively sought to accuse one individual, NS the former AIPA Pres, of being solely responsible for selling out the pilot body for a job in FLTOPS. A lazy and accusation at best.
The LHEA in question was negotiated by a team of negotiators, AIPA members may like to go back and check who they were. Do they get the same treatment as NS? It was put up by the AIPA com, do they get the same treatment as NS? It was voted up by a 80/20 majority, perhaps a mirror is now in order. And for this NS was rewarded with a job as a negotiator on the current LHEA, big bloody deal.
Where was the vitriol when CM became chief pilot or WK moved into the DCP role. That’s right they were one of the gang not an uppity 737 FO.
As to MS the current AIPA Pres. From what I’ve seen he expressed an interest in moving into the superannuation area in the future maybe with QF Super. QF Super is separate entity to QFA so the idea of the much talked about Quid pro quo is naive at best and malicious at its worst. Also one of the current self appointed saviours of AIPA the former AIPA Pres BJ did exactly the same thing. Oh that right he’s one of the gang as well.
The LHEA in question was negotiated by a team of negotiators, AIPA members may like to go back and check who they were. Do they get the same treatment as NS? It was put up by the AIPA com, do they get the same treatment as NS? It was voted up by a 80/20 majority, perhaps a mirror is now in order. And for this NS was rewarded with a job as a negotiator on the current LHEA, big bloody deal.
Where was the vitriol when CM became chief pilot or WK moved into the DCP role. That’s right they were one of the gang not an uppity 737 FO.
As to MS the current AIPA Pres. From what I’ve seen he expressed an interest in moving into the superannuation area in the future maybe with QF Super. QF Super is separate entity to QFA so the idea of the much talked about Quid pro quo is naive at best and malicious at its worst. Also one of the current self appointed saviours of AIPA the former AIPA Pres BJ did exactly the same thing. Oh that right he’s one of the gang as well.
TE: That’s certainly one opinion. And there’s absolutely no denying 80% voted for it. I’d liken it to voting for a 30% levy on all technical staff towards Elaine’s holiday fund but as god only knows how, that argument worked. Well done there! Chairman’s Lounge passes all around! I’m sure the perpetrators have found a number of ways to reconcile the fact they will be reviled by generations of pilots to come.
Thank you The Equaliser for bringing a dose of reality.
Rated De’s attacks on NS are juvenile at best. The attacks on MS are utterly unwarranted and show how ignorant the poster is of what’s actually going on within AIPA but that shouldn’t be surprising as he is not a pilot but simply an internet troll.
Rated De’s attacks on NS are juvenile at best. The attacks on MS are utterly unwarranted and show how ignorant the poster is of what’s actually going on within AIPA but that shouldn’t be surprising as he is not a pilot but simply an internet troll.
From yesterday’s webinar a comment was made that “Jetstar International has a greater ROIC than that of Qantas International”. Another throw away line that has no way of being validated yet we’re meant to believe it hook line and sinker. Do they think we’re that stupid! I believe there is an underlying modus operandi to this Project Sunrise and that is to bypass the current A380/A330 conditions by stealth using project sunrise as a lever. The whole premise is to introduce a new type being most probably the 777X on current 787 rates. It’s a long term plan no doubt but you can easily envisage further orders after the initial order of sunrise requirements to become the dominant wide body long haul fleet consisting of 777 and 787s. To protect this from happening there needs to be a scope clause. You know the one like Qantas is insisting on from the manufacturers as part of their contractual stipulations. Not sure if I’m a Troo Believer anymore. Just another jaded cynical pilot unfortunately.
Comparing ROIC between JQI and QFI is not a like for like comparison. JQI doesn’t do LH. It’s an argument easy to push but they know it’s irrelevant. Capital will be applied to the area where the greatest return is likely. At the moment the company obviously sees greater returns possible in QFI for reinvestment or growth.
Where was the vitriol when CM became chief pilot or WK moved into the DCP role
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From yesterday’s webinar a comment was made that “Jetstar International has a greater ROIC than that of Qantas International”. Another throw away line that has no way of being validated yet we’re meant to believe it hook line and sinker. Do they think we’re that stupid! I believe there is an underlying modus operandi to this Project Sunrise and that is to bypass the current A380/A330 conditions by stealth using project sunrise as a lever. The whole premise is to introduce a new type being most probably the 777X on current 787 rates. It’s a long term plan no doubt but you can easily envisage further orders after the initial order of sunrise requirements to become the dominant wide body long haul fleet consisting of 777 and 787s. To protect this from happening there needs to be a scope clause. You know the one like Qantas is insisting on from the manufacturers as part of their contractual stipulations. Not sure if I’m a Troo Believer anymore. Just another jaded cynical pilot unfortunately.
They hide JQI for it is a mess. They would never segment it like they do for Qantas. They hide behind General Purpose audit under AASB 8 for a reason.
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If individuals are thin-skinned, I might suggest that they not run for a representative position on AIPA, AFAP, VIPA, QPA or any other Pilot association, entity or representative body. It appears to be a thankless job at most, and most don’t do it for the position or if it exists, any measure of prestige or power.
Such office, as realists will know, is subject to criticism from many quarters (sometimes justified and sometimes not) and as times and policy change, individuals and committees will reach an industrial “use by date”. Staying in touch with the membership and the aspirations and industrial desires of the membership over time would appear to be an aid to long term viability.
If not, change happens, as illustrated most recently at the AIPA elections!
Yes, some individuals make career moves that could open them to ridicule or conjecture (whether deserved or not). If the rules of any entity allow individuals to take up managerial appointments, and that’s unpalatable to the majority of members, then perhaps the members need to adjust the rules?
Perhaps the real measure of any representative entity, official or committee is if the elected official or officials leave the working environment for Pilots in a better position industrially than when they originally took the office.
A very big call as Project Sunrise stands!
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You mean the recent COM election where as little as 15% of the AIPA membership voting for a candidate was enough to get on the COM and where even the candidate with the highest vote only got 28% of the membership's vote? Not exactly a massive mandate for anything iMHO.
Crap Deal
This is an awful deal. It's really just a threat its so poor.
Fly 2 variants for free. Get frozen for 5 years. Get no fatigue compensation for the worst flying you can imagine.
So bad in fact that it is currently illegal to fly for so bloody long .No pilot i fly with wants to do it. Especially if your not getting paid or compensated for how its going to completely F$#% your body. I would not trust a word NS says. Getting F11 and a bonus if a deal gets up to try to lessen conditions for fellow pilots.That part is as bad as the deal. Even the company pilots and angels on here can not make this look ok.
Poor pay and no protections for the Sunrise part.
Sunrise is a shot duck anyway. This is just a way to try to finish off the LH contract for the A330/A380. A380 Replacement admitted in the webinar.
They are even trying to silence dissenters like WM on Qrewroom it is that bad a deal.
Fly 2 variants for free. Get frozen for 5 years. Get no fatigue compensation for the worst flying you can imagine.
So bad in fact that it is currently illegal to fly for so bloody long .No pilot i fly with wants to do it. Especially if your not getting paid or compensated for how its going to completely F$#% your body. I would not trust a word NS says. Getting F11 and a bonus if a deal gets up to try to lessen conditions for fellow pilots.That part is as bad as the deal. Even the company pilots and angels on here can not make this look ok.
Poor pay and no protections for the Sunrise part.
Sunrise is a shot duck anyway. This is just a way to try to finish off the LH contract for the A330/A380. A380 Replacement admitted in the webinar.
They are even trying to silence dissenters like WM on Qrewroom it is that bad a deal.