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Project Sunrise

Old 22nd Aug 2019, 05:28
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Project Sunrise

I see Qantas are about to start research flights.
https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...22-p52jm3.html
How would they route SYD to LHR?
Take off and set heading 319 degrees and just keep going?
The Great circle route takes you across the South China Sea - right through the middle of China, up the top of Kazakhstan and down, across Western Russia then down through Estonia and the Baltic to Britain...
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 06:22
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You’d be a long way from London if you put in 319 and left it for 20 hours.
Since you looked at the map you would’ve noticed the great circle route approaches London from the north east and the final heading would be 240.

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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 08:23
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Perhaps this route? Proving(?) route from 30 years ago

http://www.gcmap.com/ - featured in the home page
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 08:38
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Who else feels quite sure that the results found...will have already been ...uh...found...and relayed to the research team in advance??
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 09:00
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With the number of academics involved (probably gathering data for peer reviewed research papers), I’m optimistic the human results will be realistic.

Fuel burn & other ‘engineering’ issues I assume are solely for analysis by Qantas.

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Last edited by layman; 22nd Aug 2019 at 09:03. Reason: Clarification of what I meant ...
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 09:03
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As realistic as the epic pax positioning and a few days rest makes it
probably office types and TFOs that aren't knackered to start with
so even with good intentions (hmm) it's going to be bs
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 09:07
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So they are going to put just 40 pax in an aircraft of a different type and feel they can get results from this.

What about the impact on those pinioned in Economy window seats by those alongside who are asleep ? What about the capacity of the toilets with a full pax load ? Will they serve minimalist Economy catering to those at the back, or will everyone get something better ? Will you be told "your choice" has run out and only the veggie option is left now ? And 1,001 other issues which will not be replicated. Regarding the crew, these are apparently new aircraft delivery flights, so one way. Surely the crews should do both ways, with the proposed layover time.
The Great circle route takes you across the South China Sea - right through the middle of China, up the top of Kazakhstan and down, across Western Russia then down through Estonia and the Baltic to Britain...
I recall the nonstop LHR-SYD 747-400 from 30 years ago (gosh, really was that long ago) heading right overhead me as it departed London. If I recall correctly, it routed the "conventional" way, over The Gulf and the Indian Ocean. When you are going pretty much one side of the world to the other (I know it's not quite that) it doesn't matter hugely which way you point, and the winds become more significant. The Singapore-New York A350 sometimes routes over the Pacific, sometimes it comes overhead London.

Last edited by WHBM; 22nd Aug 2019 at 09:21.
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 09:34
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Statement of the obvious - research can rarely give a ‘final’ answer in anything -but it’s a start.

On only a quick look around, I didn’t find any papers directly referencing this type of empirical research.

The ‘only’ papers I found that are somewhat relevant were:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...g-haul_Flights

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...6969971830317X

Reoeating the experimental conditions 3 times usually gives a higher confidence level.

Might it be like Singapore airlines and be all premium / business?
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 11:09
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So they will fly 40 staff and crew, First and Business class to New York and London. Put them up in nice Hotels for a few days with a fist full of US Dollars and Pounds.
Then they will fly non stop home to SYD and then be asked;

“What do you think of that flight and how do you feel?”


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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 11:50
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Perhaps people on here should read the research proposal before commenting?

“People on the aircraft will be fitted with wearable monitors etc etc ... “

regatds
layman
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 12:31
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Some people on here will damn them what ever they do

Try and launch without testing? Damned!!!

Testing ?? Damned!!!!

Sure it may be uncomfortable for the few souls in Economy but if the price is right they'll be happy to pay for it - all the evidence shows that the economics for the airline are the go/no-go decision - the SLF will happily put up with anything...............
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 13:31
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
Try and launch without testing? Damned!!!

Testing ?? Damned!!!!
And then there's unrealistic testing. Boeing have shown they are good at that. let's not emulate them.

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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 17:05
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I wonder what the backup plan is if Boeing and Airbus both say they can’t make the distance
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 17:45
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Originally Posted by Brown Cow View Post
I wonder what the backup plan is if Boeing and Airbus both say they can’t make the distance
I'm quite sure the frames will be able to make the distance. The only issue is going to be, "at what passenger load?" Unless the plane can hold enough pax who are paying the right price, a technical success will be an economic failure.
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 18:55
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Originally Posted by Fliegenmong View Post
Who else feels quite sure that the results found...will have already been ...uh...found...and relayed to the research team in advance??
Exactly. Any results will be positive and just used to get the pilots and cabin crew to agree.

The data for the passengers will be useless. Test it with a full economy cabin. Staff who are lucky to be on the junket will tow the line.

This is a classic publicity stunt to divert attention from the lack of investment in other aircraft.


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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 19:44
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Originally Posted by SeenItAll View Post
I'm quite sure the frames will be able to make the distance. The only issue is going to be, "at what passenger load?".
Pax load is one thing. There's also "how much freight" as well. Cathay in particular commonly gross their 773ER out on substantial belly cargo loads to and from Hong Kong, on both legs of their competing flights. With a full pax load and bags, belly freight revenue is still commonly equal to the overall profit for the flight.

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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 20:49
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
Pax load is one thing. There's also "how much freight" as well. Cathay in particular commonly gross their 773ER out on substantial belly cargo loads to and from Hong Kong, on both legs of their competing flights. With a full pax load and bags, belly freight revenue is still commonly equal to the overall profit for the flight.
Commonly on 9000nm flights?
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 21:35
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Flt ops were trying to keep these flights away from the media, so they could be used for meaningful testing. As usual flt ops lose as the Qantas PR machine does it thing.
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Old 23rd Aug 2019, 00:08
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Cool

Yes, this is PPRuNe, the mouthpiece of airline sceptics anonymous (including me at times! ), but I am confident that this little project can be worthwhile.
I'm told that one of the flights will be operated by a Fatigue Panel Captain and one by an AIPA CoM member Captain (who is definitely not of the alleged AIPA to management clique).
The data will be collated by AlertnessCRC who ran the PER-LHR and MEL-LAX study, again with the full support of AIPA (and please save yourself the typing on AIPA execs moving to management roles and thus rubber stamping these results in the company's favour).

At least it's being done.
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Old 23rd Aug 2019, 00:16
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Originally Posted by layman View Post
Perhaps this route? Proving(?) route from 30 years ago

Great Circle Mapper - featured in the home page
Noted - but that was going the other way.
Clearly some concern about crews, basing etc.
But epic flight this - I see Boeing have proposed a 777-8 variant to do it.
What mods might they make - less freight and additional belly tanks to boost the range?
Which means you need more Biz and First to offset the revenue loss?
Assume that prevailing westerly winds are going to be a big factor...?


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