Jetstar pilots fatigued?

[thorn bird]

Rotum,
as with everything these departures from normal start somewhere.
Pity GA, it is a requirement these days by the FOI of the day to alter the manufacurers recommended procedures. You have to comply, otherwise you dont get a tick in the box, even if you dont agree with their "opinion".
Will they put their name to it???..not likely!!...if there is an incident you just know they will say "We accepted this change...we didnt approve it" part of the CASA "All care and no responsibility" approach. Why GA is required to rewrite the flight manual is beyond me.

[shon7]

What we (industry wide) need is some standard phone call that can be made. E.g. "I am not fit for duty". End of story, no questions asked.
We should not need to explain if it is a blocked sinus or an 18 month old baby screaming all night that has prevented sleep.
As it is, when sick, there is no requirement to disclose the nature of the illness, and this should be the same for fatigue. Should be illegal to question it whatsoever.

When your call about fatigue is genuine, you will not be bothered if it is questioned. Of course when this is abused it is a different story.

[woodja51]

Mobile phone stuff

Seceral years ago Emirates added mobile phones off to the before start cx as there was an incident where a Pilot had the fire warning bell as a ring tone.. So you can guess what happened. That caused the item to be inserted ... Problem solved .. Well not really.... Because as they also operate B777s one would think it would also be added to that checklist if considered important enough... However as it is an ECL that was too hard ( operators can mod the airbus cx as they are just paper),
so not entirely surprised this occurred however it could have just been ignored by the pilots.. As happens in a large number of flights every day most likely out there in pilot land when the left on fones come in range of the towers...

Wja

[By George]

Much of Jetstars Long Haul is North/South. This is as good as it gets, with only a few hours of time change. The real fatigue comes from East/West flying. They say "West is best" and for whatever reason I found this to be the case. SQ consider SYD-SIN a 'short sector' and use them for line-checks. DRW-SIN, is hardly worth ironing a shirt. If you are suffering fatique on a sector like that there is either something wrong with the roster or the way you're managing your own rest.

[glekichi]

When your call about fatigue is genuine, you will not be bothered if it is questioned. Of course when this is abused it is a different story.

I couldn't disagree more.
If that is so, why are so many pilots so weary of mentioning fatigue?

If it is a prior to the start of a flight, the cause of being unfit for duty is irrelevant.

If it is an in- flight onset of fatigue, then obviously some kind of report will be needed so fatigue does need to be mentioned, but should never be questioned.

[balance]

When your call about fatigue is genuine, you will not be bothered if it is questioned. Of course when this is abused it is a different story.

That comment goes to show the idiotic nonsense that "shon7" believes.

Are you actually a human being shon7, or are you some kind of a freak? Do you actually understand the way humans feel, or is it just a numbers game to you. Your comments on this and other threads truly disgust me, and apparently a lot of others too.

For what it is worth, and I doubt that you will listen and understand, but here goes anyway: anybody who is questioned about such a subjective issue WILL feel pressured. If they do feel pressured, they will be more likely to do the duty. That will and has lead to accidents.

Comprehend?

Jeez. *Shakes head and walks slowly away*

[Capn Bloggs]

Balance, you have completely misread shon7's post.

[neville_nobody]

SQ consider SYD-SIN a 'short sector' and use them for line-checks.

So short that the crews I've seen have been a CPT/FO/SO.

I suggest you read the report as these guys had been woken by a fire drill at the hotel and were on a 12 hour layover. How many of those do they do at Singapore?

[Mstr Caution]

glekichi -

What we (industry wide) need is some standard phone call that can be made.

An airline with a mature FRMS will have this, as required by ICAO & as required by the airlines SMS audited by CASA.

If that is so, why are so many pilots so weary of mentioning fatigue?

If it's not working either the process is still in it's infancy, it was incorrectly applied or their is mis trust in the organisation. Crew will be gun shy to report fatigued if management has previously made examples of other crew.

If it is a prior to the start of a flight, the cause of being unfit for duty is irrelevant.

Unless of course the cause of fatigue was induced by the company, poor rostering, insufficient rest, accumulated fatigue, poor quality hotel. A company can't wash it's hands of it's responsibilities when their actions have not allowed crew to present fit for duty.

If it is an in- flight onset of fatigue, then obviously some kind of report will be needed so fatigue does need to be mentioned....

Umm, have a look at CASA & ICAO recomendations, I'll think you'll find a report is required and Fatigue will need to be mentioned. There are also a few regs that will outline when & what sort of reports are required.

MC

[DutchRoll]

If it's not working either the process is still in it's infancy, it was incorrectly applied or their is mis trust in the organisation. Crew will be gun shy to report fatigued if management has previously made examples of other crew.

My only example of calling in too tired to operate a couple of years ago (due to serious hotel issues for which a formal complaint and report were submitted) for a major iconic Australian airline with a marsupial painted on its tail, was an unpleasant experience for several days afterwards. Fortunately it was eventually sorted out by some very blunt phone calls from one of our pilot association scheduling reps.

Regrettably you can't stop d*ckheads from floating into positions of managerial power.

[greybeard]

SIA had a 12hour min rest at Singapore, 10 hours at night stops for the so called "short haul", sleep was always an option at BKK on that one.
So called "Long Haul" had other limits due crew numbers and duty times etc.

Retirement is so much better, "Nana Naps" when tired after lunch, sometimes even with Nana bless her.

Fatigue management is a lousy cop out, just means you are legally tired, which you can't be as you have had minimum rest!!!

[Oxidant]

Greybeard,

"Fatigue management is a lousy cop out, just means you are legally tired....."

One of the most profound statements ever posted.

[framer]

SQ consider SYD-SIN a 'short sector' and use them for line-checks. DRW-SIN, is hardly worth ironing a shirt. If you are suffering fatique on a sector like that there is either something wrong with the roster or the way you're managing your own rest.

Well you must be made of stronger stuff than me....either that or you're comparing apples with oranges. ie An aircraft where one can retire to crew rest v's an aircraft where one is stuck in the same seat for the entire duty.There is a big difference. Every person is different but for me, a 13 hour trip to LAX is less tiring than a DRW-SIN-DRW, even though it is a shorter duty time.

[Kharon]

Tick tock.

Plane Talking - Ben Sandilands - Jetstar

The document could be read as confirmation of strong safety action by the airline, yet also as confirmation that it has for years been less safe than desirable, and, by inference, inadequately overseen by CASA, the body that grounded its smaller competitor Tiger, as an imminent risk to public safety.

Ministerial selective vision and hearing, Senate meek acceptance of 'expert' opinion, Airline executive pony pooh, CASA spin polished arse cover, ATSB weak sister platitude or fit aircrew bleating about being tired can not be used any longer as an excuse.

Someone's going to get hurt.

[By George]

Framer, I'm not trying to be 'Tougher' than anybody else. I think fatigue is the biggest issue for Long Haul flying and is greatly underestimated. I am guilty of flying when too fatiqued. Making best use of rest time is not easy in Hotel rooms. I don't really have any answers except to take it seriously and rest when ever you can. Incidently, when three crew with SQ, ie one Capt and two F/O's the Capt cannot leave his seat and is only allowed 'controlled rest' in the cockpit. SIN-AKL is an example, 10 hrs in the chair back-of-the-clock. They don't use Second Officers like Qantas do, it's a pilot under training rank.
During my Domestic years a layover was 'party-time' this is not possible on Long-Haul, at least not these days. Long-Haul is fatigue management, simple as that. I have one friend who flew with EVA and just couldn't hack it and gave it away. I managed 15 years of Long-Haul, with difficulty, and would never go back. I've seen pax in economy to Europe, min rest and crew back.

[gobbledock]

The final countdown

Could be a coincidence but both Tiger and JQ receive oversight from CASA's Melbourne Field Office. Could we be seeing a pattern emerging of inadequate and ****e oversight? Perhaps a brooming or a regulator enema is required?
It is unbelievable the amount of operator issues down south that are raising a very ugly head.
Most of the publicized issues could be placed in three categories;
1) Poor airline management,
2) Failure of the SMS and
3) Dysfunctional and/or a lack of regulatory oversight. Either way all 3 agenda items do fit within the regulators oversight domain.

These would be the primary issues with an absolute plethora of related issues.
Tick tock

[LHLisa]

The lovely young girl who works at my local chemist has a dad who works shift work in manufacturing. She has explained to me that if he is too tired for his night shift duty all he has to is ring in and say he is tired. No questions asked whatsoever . No 4 page form including a statement on his mental health or lack of. That sounds like a company with values including "progressive" and " forward thinking" to me.

It is only 12 months since my area changed fatigue from a psychological issue to a physiological issue.

[Angle of Attack]

What is the issue you call in and say you are unfit for duty, if they demand an explanation refer it to your union rep or your doctor who will provide the certificate, think of it this way no doctor is going to refuse to give you a medical certificate and no company is going to challenge the doctors opinions, it is easier than Grade 1 boys and girls... why the tissues for this issue?

[Capn Bloggs]

your doctor who will provide the certificate,

Have you actually done this AoA?? It costs money! Or do you have a cushy arrangement with yours for freebees whenever you want them?

[Angle of Attack]

Have you actually done this AoA?

Umm, yeah probably several times per year, best place to head is Chinatown doctors where they will provide you with bulk billed certificates still, but I just go to my local doctor non bulk billed but only out of pocket is around $32, then you can claim it on tax as it is an employer requirement to get the certificate and its another 30-40% off. So yeah I guess it costs money at worst $20 or so.