Jetstar pilots fatigued?
Or they could print:
Flight and Duty Limits, which are there to ensure that your crew do not have to operate fatigued, are viewed by this airline as targets and as such the crew who are with you today will be operating to the maximum allowed by the rules. So the Princesses we employ are not that tired that they could make a fatal mistake whilst on approach to your destination, we do allow them to have controlled rest for a period of 30 minutes on the flight"
Why we can't dock them that 30 minutes is currently being worked on in EBA negotiations
Flight and Duty Limits, which are there to ensure that your crew do not have to operate fatigued, are viewed by this airline as targets and as such the crew who are with you today will be operating to the maximum allowed by the rules. So the Princesses we employ are not that tired that they could make a fatal mistake whilst on approach to your destination, we do allow them to have controlled rest for a period of 30 minutes on the flight"
Why we can't dock them that 30 minutes is currently being worked on in EBA negotiations
Whispering "T" Jet
Would you rather two pilots who on final approach can't keep their eyes open because they are so exhausted
I would rather the Airlines roster appropriate duty and rest periods so that the crews can do a days work without needing "controlled" rest periods.
Sorry, but that is just not realistic. The roster that I always used to struggle with was a late night check in to fly from Heathrow to JFK. I can't remember the exact report time but it was around 18:30pm with a departure at just after 20:00. Scheduled block was around 8 hours which put you landing into a very busy JFK environment often in crappy weather at around 04:00 body time.
Now, this was a two crew operation so no chance for inflight rest in the bunks and often would be the first duty on the roster after days off. I don't care who you are but it is almost impossible to prepare for a duty like this so that you can do the whole sector without feeling bloody shattered at some point during the night given that you have probably only had 2-3 days at home after potentially just come back from somewhere East. Controlled rest was and is the only sensible solution.
We are digressing a little bit here as controlled rest is NOT a tool for fatigue, it is a tool to use to combat tiredness that occurs when you are flying while your body is saying sleep. If you are fatigued you should NOT be at work, if you are tired you should grab the opportunity to rest whenever you have the opportunity as allowed by you company SOP's. This tiredness will happen in any job where you are expected to work through the night, the only way that FTL's could get rid of this kind of tiredness would be to BAN all flying between the hours of 23:00 and 0600. It ain't going to happen.
Now, this was a two crew operation so no chance for inflight rest in the bunks and often would be the first duty on the roster after days off. I don't care who you are but it is almost impossible to prepare for a duty like this so that you can do the whole sector without feeling bloody shattered at some point during the night given that you have probably only had 2-3 days at home after potentially just come back from somewhere East. Controlled rest was and is the only sensible solution.
We are digressing a little bit here as controlled rest is NOT a tool for fatigue, it is a tool to use to combat tiredness that occurs when you are flying while your body is saying sleep. If you are fatigued you should NOT be at work, if you are tired you should grab the opportunity to rest whenever you have the opportunity as allowed by you company SOP's. This tiredness will happen in any job where you are expected to work through the night, the only way that FTL's could get rid of this kind of tiredness would be to BAN all flying between the hours of 23:00 and 0600. It ain't going to happen.
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A salient point made by Ollie Onion.
"We are digressing a little bit here as controlled rest is NOT a tool for fatigue, it is a tool to use to combat tiredness that occurs when you are flying while your body is saying sleep. If you are fatigued you should NOT be at work, if you are tired you should grab the opportunity to rest whenever you have the opportunity as allowed by you company SOP's. This tiredness will happen in any job where you are expected to work through the night, the only way that FTL's could get rid of this kind of tiredness would be to BAN all flying between the hours of 23:00 and 0600. It ain't going to happen."
"We are digressing a little bit here as controlled rest is NOT a tool for fatigue, it is a tool to use to combat tiredness that occurs when you are flying while your body is saying sleep. If you are fatigued you should NOT be at work, if you are tired you should grab the opportunity to rest whenever you have the opportunity as allowed by you company SOP's. This tiredness will happen in any job where you are expected to work through the night, the only way that FTL's could get rid of this kind of tiredness would be to BAN all flying between the hours of 23:00 and 0600. It ain't going to happen."
Nunc est bibendum
From my understanding, ICAO are now using the word 'fatigue' when referring to what Ollie calls 'tired'. IE. there is no difference. Happy to be corrected on that.
However , the point is hat controlled rest actually is a tool to address fatigue. It won't do a zot against cumulative fatigue though.
However , the point is hat controlled rest actually is a tool to address fatigue. It won't do a zot against cumulative fatigue though.
controlled rest actually is a tool to address fatigue. It won't do a zot against cumulative fatigue though
That controlled rest does help fatigue, that it won't help cumulative fatigue or that fatigue doesn't exist at all in modern airline schedules?
All three are regularly proven, peer-reviewed, facts!
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Shon, unlike yourself, Keg knows what he is talking about.
So what is the deal with you now? After being outed as a juvenile, frustrated wannabe, you are turning to pointless and ill-considered trolling to get your attention fix?
So what is the deal with you now? After being outed as a juvenile, frustrated wannabe, you are turning to pointless and ill-considered trolling to get your attention fix?
Nunc est bibendum
Now go serve coffee or whatever else you do while claiming to be a pilot.
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Now hang on a sec fellas, maybe we should listen to what shon7 has to say about fatigue, considering his vast longhaul operational experience.
LOL.
shon7 15th Aug 2011, 01:45
Any suggestions on a good school/FBO for an accelerated Commercial license in a one month timeframe (Nov or Dec) for someone who already has an IFR and 240 odd hours
Any suggestions on a good school/FBO for an accelerated Commercial license in a one month timeframe (Nov or Dec) for someone who already has an IFR and 240 odd hours
Sh@t 7, the reasoning behind your last post directed at Keg was unintelligible.
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Of course that could just be a figment of my imagination.
Shon7 you really are a twit.
Last edited by IsDon; 27th Apr 2012 at 02:18.
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If it makes you feel any better people don't believe I'm a pilot either.
What you need to do is grow a mustache, should only take you a year or two then yool get treated with the respekt you deserve 
You sound a bit jealous Cec. The trick is sunscreen 
I Think I may go out and buy a few more Gold Bars to wear around down town, that should foo....I mean convince them.
I Think I may go out and buy a few more Gold Bars to wear around down town, that should foo....I mean convince them.
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What's wrong with serving coffee anyway? (assuming the post was used as a taunt). I love my coffee & am always grateful for a free cup!! It's fun to see if you can make a decent cup with the galley brewer (debatable!!).
Controlled rest is like a spare tyre....if you have a flat on a drive, you're going to use it....but you shouldn't be driving around with it on all the time. It should be kept in reserve whilst you look after the normal tyres.
Controlled rest is like a spare tyre....if you have a flat on a drive, you're going to use it....but you shouldn't be driving around with it on all the time. It should be kept in reserve whilst you look after the normal tyres.
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The key to the way both CASA and Airline management look at fatigue is the statement that" the organisational aspects of fatigue management did not appear to materially contribute to the issue of fatigue ".Basically the report is saying the Crew were given 'adequate opportunity' for rest and didn't use it. None of this of course takes in to account the time of day,body rhythms, disruptions to sleep etc. All comes back to the crew because they /he 'didn't avail himself fully of the rest opportunity'.This is a big grey area for crews and a big out for Airline management."Hey the guy was too tired,he should have told us.We gave him 12 hours off "
Unfortunately in this incident have to agree with LookLeft. For a Captain to state that passing 1000ft AGL ( and getting an auto-call out of same ) he noticed that the Gear was still up and Flaps at Config.2 ( Flaps 3 and Flaps Full still to go ! ) but chose to do nothing about it does sort of beg belief regardless if you're tired or not !
From my understanding, J* only allowed the crew to continue their duty because the Captain had reported the go-around as a routine event and the true story only came out later.
Unfortunately in this incident have to agree with LookLeft. For a Captain to state that passing 1000ft AGL ( and getting an auto-call out of same ) he noticed that the Gear was still up and Flaps at Config.2 ( Flaps 3 and Flaps Full still to go ! ) but chose to do nothing about it does sort of beg belief regardless if you're tired or not !
From my understanding, J* only allowed the crew to continue their duty because the Captain had reported the go-around as a routine event and the true story only came out later.
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It would appear that fatigue management is an oxymoron at Jetstar. Either they have found a way to mitigate against fatigue that is superior to all other domestic airlines, or their pilots are fatigued. Why is Jetstar the only airline to conduct BOC operations that no other airline does?
The SYD-PER-SYD (JQ988 JQ989) pattern has a flight time of 9:25. The maximum flight deck duty as allowed by the CAO48 Exemption that Jetstar operate to is 9:30. That is a 5 minute difference between the rostered FLIGHT TIME and the maximum FLIGHT DECK DUTY. Maybe the Jetstar pilots could shed some light on how they do 2 cockpit setups and post flight shut downs in 5 min. It must be worlds’ best practice!!
For reference, the CAO48 Exemption is a public document on the CASA website. It contains the following definition of Flight Deck Duty:
“The total time a flight crewmember is on duty on the flight deck in a flight duty period.”
The SYD-PER-SYD (JQ988 JQ989) pattern has a flight time of 9:25. The maximum flight deck duty as allowed by the CAO48 Exemption that Jetstar operate to is 9:30. That is a 5 minute difference between the rostered FLIGHT TIME and the maximum FLIGHT DECK DUTY. Maybe the Jetstar pilots could shed some light on how they do 2 cockpit setups and post flight shut downs in 5 min. It must be worlds’ best practice!!
For reference, the CAO48 Exemption is a public document on the CASA website. It contains the following definition of Flight Deck Duty:
“The total time a flight crewmember is on duty on the flight deck in a flight duty period.”
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I have been on a flight deck when the entire crew were close to pushing a few zzzzzzz out, but were brought to attention very smartly when a cockroach of mammoth proportions ran up my trouser leg. I have always been fast to get the dacs off, but never at the speed I did that night. Naturally the buggers rang for the CSM who was female, and there I am in the reg grundies, trying to bash the thing to death with my shoe. Certainly brightened us all up, including the CSM who politely pointed out that my red speedo's were not standard uniform, and she would have to make a note and pass onto the company!
Nunc est bibendum
“The total time a flight crewmember is on duty on the flight deck in a flight duty period.”