Jetstar pilots fatigued?
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The SYD-PER-SYD (JQ988 JQ989) pattern has a flight time of 9:25. The maximum flight deck duty as allowed by the CAO48 Exemption that Jetstar operate to is 9:30. That is a 5 minute difference between the rostered FLIGHT TIME and the maximum FLIGHT DECK DUTY. Maybe the Jetstar pilots could shed some light on how they do 2 cockpit setups and post flight shut downs in 5 min. It must be worlds’ best practice!!
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Welcome to JQ A330 2 crew standouts (all local departure/arrival times)...
BKK/MEL 2215/1020 9hrs 5min.
NRT/OOL 2025/0625 9hrs.
KIX/OOL 2050/0655 9hrs 5min.
HKT/SYD 2020/1025 9hrs 5min.
BKK/MEL 2215/1020 9hrs 5min.
NRT/OOL 2025/0625 9hrs.
KIX/OOL 2050/0655 9hrs 5min.
HKT/SYD 2020/1025 9hrs 5min.
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The SYD-PER-SYD (JQ988 JQ989) pattern has a flight time of 9:25. The maximum flight deck duty as allowed by the CAO48 Exemption that Jetstar operate to is 9:30. That is a 5 minute difference between the rostered FLIGHT TIME and the maximum FLIGHT DECK DUTY.
Get off the aircraft & go to a company provided hotel for a rest.
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Either they have found a way to mitigate against fatigue that is superior to all other domestic airlines, or their pilots are fatigued. Why is Jetstar the only airline to conduct BOC operations that no other airline does?
If one Australian Airline determines that a particular pairing is fatiguing & no longer schedules crew to fly that pairing.
They should then advise CASA of such evidence & facts behind the reasoning.
If it's something like a serious incident, increases in error rates, or large proportion of crew reporting fatigued. But it must be evidence based.
CASA should then make a determination as to whether it should be an industry standard or not.
If you believe BB in the senate inquiry, because another airline flies a different aircraft type, the fatigue levels are different.
For a bit of light reading, for those that are interested, have a look at "The impacts of Australian Transcontinental 'Back of the Clock' operations on sleep and performance in Commercial Aviation Flight Crew"
ATSB publication number- 50171, published March 2007.
Clark y.
ATSB publication number- 50171, published March 2007.
Clark y.
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CCrew have to see a company aviation dr if they use more than 3 fatigue days a year. If cc take more than 1 day of fatigue leave - eg 2 consecutive days- they have to see a company dr. It's a bit of a farce. Crew ****e themselves whenever they are told they need to see a company chosen aviation dr. A lot of Cc have had really bad experiences after seeing them.
Sony Hammond thank you for the link to that research article. Thank f$&k someone cares about this issue.
Sony Hammond thank you for the link to that research article. Thank f$&k someone cares about this issue.
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Its all been done before, no need to re-invent the wheel:
House of Representatives Committees: Beyond the Midnight Oil: Managing Fatigue in Transport final report.
In addition there are a myriad of submissions that should provide the determined with a goldmine of information and data.
House of Representatives Committees: Beyond the Midnight Oil: Managing Fatigue in Transport final report.
In addition there are a myriad of submissions that should provide the determined with a goldmine of information and data.
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All this carry on goes with the shyte sandwich that is JQ. You know what you are getting into when you sell your souls to the devil. Stop whining about it.
The Regionals do "real" min rest overnights ie 9 hrs off after doing 5 sector days each side of the rest. In at 8.45pm and out at 0600. That's sign ON/OFF. They're in the cab at 0530 after getting to bed @ 2130. As we all know, multiple sector days are far more fatiguing than S&L for 8 hours.
As a previous poster said, this has been going on for years, and short of parking a/c on the ground between 11pm and 6am it aint ever gunna change. So I say suck it up and get on with it, or p1ss off and do something else. It goes with the territory!
The Regionals do "real" min rest overnights ie 9 hrs off after doing 5 sector days each side of the rest. In at 8.45pm and out at 0600. That's sign ON/OFF. They're in the cab at 0530 after getting to bed @ 2130. As we all know, multiple sector days are far more fatiguing than S&L for 8 hours.
As a previous poster said, this has been going on for years, and short of parking a/c on the ground between 11pm and 6am it aint ever gunna change. So I say suck it up and get on with it, or p1ss off and do something else. It goes with the territory!
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All this carry on goes with the shyte sandwich that is JQ. You know what you are getting into when you sell your souls to the devil. Stop whining about it.
The Regionals do "real" min rest overnights ie 9 hrs off after doing 5 sector days each side of the "rest". In at 8.45pm and out at 0600. That's sign ON/OFF. They're in the cab at 0530 after getting to bed @ 2130. As we all know, multiple sector days are far more fatiguing than S&L for 8 hours.
As a previous poster said, this has been going on for years, and short of parking a/c on the ground between 11pm and 6am it aint ever gunna change. So I say suck it up and get on with it, or p1ss off and do something else. It goes with the territory!
The Regionals do "real" min rest overnights ie 9 hrs off after doing 5 sector days each side of the "rest". In at 8.45pm and out at 0600. That's sign ON/OFF. They're in the cab at 0530 after getting to bed @ 2130. As we all know, multiple sector days are far more fatiguing than S&L for 8 hours.
As a previous poster said, this has been going on for years, and short of parking a/c on the ground between 11pm and 6am it aint ever gunna change. So I say suck it up and get on with it, or p1ss off and do something else. It goes with the territory!
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The Regionals do "real" min rest overnights ie 9 hrs off after doing 5 sector days each side of the "rest". In at 8.45pm and out at 0600. That's sign ON/OFF. They're in the cab at 0530 after getting to bed @ 2130. As we all know, multiple sector days are far more fatiguing than S&L for 8 hours.
Not sure when I got my head down as early as 2130 on an overnight but yes, up at 0500 the next morning, as you'd well remember!
There have been changes: We can put in fatigue reports now!
Now, if only the company will do something about them...
DIVOSH!
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Yeah, we did that for eons, Norma. (I don't think it was right, and whenever I felt fatigued, removed myself from duty). But the thing is that regardless of the employer and agreements under which these guys work - fatigue is a serious issue affecting flight safety, which nobody seems to wish to address.
Just because they work for xyz doesn't mean they deserve to be rostered fatigued. This is an industry-wide problem.... But you know that
Just because they work for xyz doesn't mean they deserve to be rostered fatigued. This is an industry-wide problem.... But you know that
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This is the original link (emphasis formatting is mine). Posted the text below in case the link stops working. Long rail shifts too risky, says union
Maybe some duty time lessons can be learnt from another union.
Originally Posted by TheAge
Long rail shifts too risky, says union
April 27, 2012
LIVES will be put at risk if train drivers are forced to work shifts of more than 12 hours, the railway workers union says.
The Rail, Tram and Bus Union has called on the National Transport Commission to dump a recommendation that fatigue standards for train drivers in New South Wales be relaxed - currently there is a 12-hour cap on work - to improve flexibility and reduce regulation. The current NSW cap is unique, but Rail, Tram and Bus union national secretary Bob Nanva said it should be extended nationwide as part of the move to have a single national rail regulator.
''Our concern is that uniform legislation across Australia should raise standards across Australia rather than reducing them to the lowest common denominator,'' he told the ABC.
In December 2009, federal and state governments agreed to implement a national rail regulator, which included fatigue risk management.
Ministers will discuss recommendations from the commission on May 18.
The union has cited a Monash and Sydney university analysis that found removing shift limits was ''potentially dangerous''.
April 27, 2012
LIVES will be put at risk if train drivers are forced to work shifts of more than 12 hours, the railway workers union says.
The Rail, Tram and Bus Union has called on the National Transport Commission to dump a recommendation that fatigue standards for train drivers in New South Wales be relaxed - currently there is a 12-hour cap on work - to improve flexibility and reduce regulation. The current NSW cap is unique, but Rail, Tram and Bus union national secretary Bob Nanva said it should be extended nationwide as part of the move to have a single national rail regulator.
''Our concern is that uniform legislation across Australia should raise standards across Australia rather than reducing them to the lowest common denominator,'' he told the ABC.
In December 2009, federal and state governments agreed to implement a national rail regulator, which included fatigue risk management.
Ministers will discuss recommendations from the commission on May 18.
The union has cited a Monash and Sydney university analysis that found removing shift limits was ''potentially dangerous''.
Maybe some duty time lessons can be learnt from another union.
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The people who say shut up and put up with it, it's just the industry?
Seriously! If a member of your family is on an aircraft when there is an incident related to fatigue it may lead you to alter your view point. I sincerely hope that never occurs, but do people need to be directly impacted by something to have empathy and a desire to do things better ? I thought that was what separated us from animals. But no, most animal species do exhibit empathy on various levels
Seriously! If a member of your family is on an aircraft when there is an incident related to fatigue it may lead you to alter your view point. I sincerely hope that never occurs, but do people need to be directly impacted by something to have empathy and a desire to do things better ? I thought that was what separated us from animals. But no, most animal species do exhibit empathy on various levels
This incident has very little to do with fatigue and a lot to do with command of the flight, situational awareness and basic professionalism none of which was being exhibited by the PIC.
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This incident has very little to do with fatigue and a lot to do with command of the flight, situational awareness and basic professionalism none of which was being exhibited by the PIC.
I think the point they are trying to make is that if you go and take up a job with an operator who you know is going to flog you, then don't complain to everyone else about your decision when you get flogged. Plenty of people have pulled their applications to certain airlines due to the crap rostering practices, you don't have to take the job just because its in a shiny jet.
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Headmaster,
using your logic then, I suppose there is no place for carriers like JQ , as these types of issues are the domain of that type of outfit.
RMCDONAL is nothing but a consummate professional btw.
using your logic then, I suppose there is no place for carriers like JQ , as these types of issues are the domain of that type of outfit.
RMCDONAL is nothing but a consummate professional btw.