Jetstar pilots fatigued?
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http://www2.icao.int/en/FatigueManag...%206%20Pt1.pdf
Shon 7
Maybe just maybe it might be because management say they have an active FRMS, but have yet to fully adopt the "International Standards & Recommended practices" from ICAO.
Shon 7
Maybe just maybe it might be because management say they have an active FRMS, but have yet to fully adopt the "International Standards & Recommended practices" from ICAO.
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The problem is Pay-For-Training.
If we didn't have it in out industry, those that had earned the right to work in our occupation would have already proved their mettle, or been washed out for lack of same.
If we didn't have it in out industry, those that had earned the right to work in our occupation would have already proved their mettle, or been washed out for lack of same.
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hey Kremin - if my opinion is so irrelevant what is getting you so worked up.
You're just a loser who cant come to terms with the fact that your little entitlement mentality is being challenged. You should be thanking your lucky stars your JQ colleagues are providing revenues that pays your salary.
You're just a loser who cant come to terms with the fact that your little entitlement mentality is being challenged. You should be thanking your lucky stars your JQ colleagues are providing revenues that pays your salary.
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Maybe just maybe it might be because management say they have an active FRMS, but have yet to fully adopt the "International Standards & Recommended practices" from ICAO.
No one is disputing that an active FRMS is a good thing but giving carte blance is a bad idea. Too much potential for abuse. And it will be the likes of Kremin that abuse it since they feel the company has done them wrong or are upset because they can't wear a silly tie to work or some other moronic reason.
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Shon 7
BB told the senate inquiry that Jetstar had an active FRMS.
That would mean that JQ had "adopted" the "recommended" practices contained within the ICAO guidelines.
Hearing JQ crew state they are unaware of Fatigue definitions, working groups, fatigue policy, reporting processes & procedures and specific crew & management training on the subject leads me to believe BB comments were lip service.
Adopting ICAO recommendations is an expensive exercise well before the first crew member ever reports unfit.
The Qantas Group has adopted an FRMS under the groups SMS.
BB told the senate inquiry that Jetstar had an active FRMS.
That would mean that JQ had "adopted" the "recommended" practices contained within the ICAO guidelines.
Hearing JQ crew state they are unaware of Fatigue definitions, working groups, fatigue policy, reporting processes & procedures and specific crew & management training on the subject leads me to believe BB comments were lip service.
Adopting ICAO recommendations is an expensive exercise well before the first crew member ever reports unfit.
The Qantas Group has adopted an FRMS under the groups SMS.
Shon,
Your assumption that there is 'too much potential' for abuse is ridiculous. Of course, as with ANY work practice in ANY workforce/industry, systems can be abused; but not to have a system that can SAVE LIVES because it MIGHT be abused, is simply fallacious.
Generally, pilots are a highly professional and conscientious group of people. As a group we have been selected EXACTLY because we are similar - we have been through batteries of tests that confirm our personality types (search 'pilot personality traits'). There are always a 'few' who will abuse the system, but the majority will use it wisely.
Fatigue management is a vital component of aviation safety, and anyone who doubts it's necessity is simply un-educated in the field.
Simply because you can't always 'see' fatigue, does not mean it isn't there.
Your assumption that there is 'too much potential' for abuse is ridiculous. Of course, as with ANY work practice in ANY workforce/industry, systems can be abused; but not to have a system that can SAVE LIVES because it MIGHT be abused, is simply fallacious.
Generally, pilots are a highly professional and conscientious group of people. As a group we have been selected EXACTLY because we are similar - we have been through batteries of tests that confirm our personality types (search 'pilot personality traits'). There are always a 'few' who will abuse the system, but the majority will use it wisely.
Fatigue management is a vital component of aviation safety, and anyone who doubts it's necessity is simply un-educated in the field.
Simply because you can't always 'see' fatigue, does not mean it isn't there.
Nunc est bibendum
Lol. The fraud that is Shon7 is put under the spotlight and his only defence is to accuse a Qantas pilot he's never met of abusing a J* fatigue system that J* contributors indicate is flawed.
Almost better than the Comedy Store.
Almost better than the Comedy Store.
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Grounded Tiger Airways faces ban until August | Inquirer Business
Shon 7
I little more history as to what happens if an airline fails to manage fatigue.
Shon 7
I little more history as to what happens if an airline fails to manage fatigue.
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Ummmm, I'm as guilty of "feeding the troll" as anyone else, but these quotes regarding shon7 spring to mind:
Just ignore the idiot.
You have been outed. No-one is interested in the opinions of a post pubescent, low-time vagabond troll with delusions of management grandeur.
Go ask Mummy and Daddy to pay for something unrelated to this industry... You are not wanted.
Go ask Mummy and Daddy to pay for something unrelated to this industry... You are not wanted.
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.
shon7 is the short name for the 7 inch shlong that hangs from his forehead.
He is a management stooge, please ignore.
He is a management stooge, please ignore.
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Hearing JQ crew state they are unaware of Fatigue definitions, working groups, fatigue policy, reporting processes & procedures and specific crew & management training on the subject leads me to believe BB comments were lip service.
I seem to remember hearing somewhere that they claim to use this software in the roster build process. Whether they do or not, I don't know.
Sometimes I get some shockers, but for the most part you can see a bit of thought goes in to giving you something liveable, previous JPA pilot reps selling out conditions for personal gain notwithstanding, but thats a whole 'nother thread.
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http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset..._modelling.pdf
Waren9
Part 5 refers to mathematical modeling.
It's but one part of the process & modeling alone won't mitigate fatigue risk.
Waren9
Part 5 refers to mathematical modeling.
It's but one part of the process & modeling alone won't mitigate fatigue risk.
Nunc est bibendum
The other point is that just because you've had more than the minimum rest period according to the law, doesn't mean that you actually got sufficient rest. Many factors can impact on that- some of which are within the control of the airline, some of them not. EG: I know that my ability to sleep improves if I've been able to exercise that day- something difficult to do when the phone goes off at 0630 and you get back to the hotel at 1800 with an 0420 call scheduled the next day.
So I couldn't give a fig what the computer model determines to be a 'fatiguing roster', it comes down to how the crew on the day(s) of that roster feel as to whether they're fatigued or not.
So I couldn't give a fig what the computer model determines to be a 'fatiguing roster', it comes down to how the crew on the day(s) of that roster feel as to whether they're fatigued or not.
One day someone is going to make ten million bucks by patenting a way of determining a persons current performance capabilities, and comparing it to their historical average.
I don't know if it will be an app that sits on the work computer desktop, or similar to a sony virtual reality headset gizmo, or a thumb prick like when a diabetic tests for glucose levels, or what form it will take. But when it is invented it will cover fatigue, drugs, alcahol, the flu, you name it, if you can't perform within cooee of your normal ability it will ping. If that ocurrs at the start of the roster you won't be allowed to sign on, if it ocurrs at sign off you'l be stood down for 24 hours.
I don't fully believe that this will happen in my lifetime but if it did, (never say never)I'd wager the decrease in accidents would compare to the advent of EGPWS.
I don't know if it will be an app that sits on the work computer desktop, or similar to a sony virtual reality headset gizmo, or a thumb prick like when a diabetic tests for glucose levels, or what form it will take. But when it is invented it will cover fatigue, drugs, alcahol, the flu, you name it, if you can't perform within cooee of your normal ability it will ping. If that ocurrs at the start of the roster you won't be allowed to sign on, if it ocurrs at sign off you'l be stood down for 24 hours.
I don't fully believe that this will happen in my lifetime but if it did, (never say never)I'd wager the decrease in accidents would compare to the advent of EGPWS.
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http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/~qji/Fatigue/siemens_talk.pdf
It's quite possible in our careers, inbuilt aircraft systems will monitor pupil & head movement & alert the pilots to the onset of fatigue or should they nod off to sleep.
It may be a graduated alert response, much like the existing "PILOT RESPONSE".
MC
It's quite possible in our careers, inbuilt aircraft systems will monitor pupil & head movement & alert the pilots to the onset of fatigue or should they nod off to sleep.
It may be a graduated alert response, much like the existing "PILOT RESPONSE".
MC
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Momentum is building
This link goes to the header for a soon to be released study that we'll find interesting.
Health News - Crew Schedules, Sleep Deprivation, and Aviation Performance
Health News - Crew Schedules, Sleep Deprivation, and Aviation Performance
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Forgive me for my ignorance, I have heard it's OK for pilots (With two pilot operation) to "Nap" while flying, if this is true what are the guidelines of pilots "Napping" while flying?
Last edited by Super Cecil; 26th Apr 2012 at 08:05. Reason: disintermediate interdisciplinary convergence
Most airlines will allow 'controlled rest'. This basically means that you inform the cabin crew that you are taking controlled rest, you then take turns to have a rest for a maximum of 30 minutes each.
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This basically means that you inform the cabin crew that you are taking controlled rest, you then take turns to have a rest for a maximum of 30 minutes each.
Or even better when buying tickets, it should be stipulated on the back of tickets something like "One of the two pilots might be asleep during the flight, it's OK though because the other pilot will wake them up before he/she goes to sleep". 
Would you rather two pilots who on final approach can't keep their eyes open because they are so exhausted. 
When you are driving a car and get the 'nodding dog' effect and scare yourself sh*tless when you fall asleep for a second or two do you pull over and have a few minutes sleep or do you push on regardless.
It is actually the safe thing to do when you are over the middle of the ocean in the pitch dark with no-one to talk to except for a radio call every hour or so to use the time to have a few micro naps so that when you are expected to land the aircraft with 300 people down the back at 05:30 you at least are awake to do it.
When you are driving a car and get the 'nodding dog' effect and scare yourself sh*tless when you fall asleep for a second or two do you pull over and have a few minutes sleep or do you push on regardless.
It is actually the safe thing to do when you are over the middle of the ocean in the pitch dark with no-one to talk to except for a radio call every hour or so to use the time to have a few micro naps so that when you are expected to land the aircraft with 300 people down the back at 05:30 you at least are awake to do it.