MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Alabama, then Wyoming, then Idaho and now staying with Kharon on Styx houseboat
Age: 61
Posts: 1,437
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Joyce own admission is that the Board had no involvement in the decision to ground the airline. So may I please ask:
What is the use or purpose of the board and all those remuneration packages they greedily absorb in the same manner a pig absorbs feed out of a trough? I see a huge saving in costs alone just there, if you don't need them then punt them.
Don't some of those same board members also supposedly provide 'safety advice' to the executive team as part of their role, and if that is the case what level of safety advice could they either advise or have input in if they supposedly didn't even know what was going to take place that Saturday?
To date all these decisions that have been actioned call in to question the honesty, integrity and ability of the accountable CEO, so that has an impact on the airlines AOC, what are CASA doing, apart from sitting on their thumbs?????
And finally, dear Senators, are you really prepared to allow this CEO to continue making a mockery of you by his playing this little game of cat and mouse with you? I am hopeful that you are merely giving him enough rope, but it might be time to reel him in?
Remember, there is such a thing as risk, and as long as the game continues the risks grow higher.
What is the use or purpose of the board and all those remuneration packages they greedily absorb in the same manner a pig absorbs feed out of a trough? I see a huge saving in costs alone just there, if you don't need them then punt them.
Don't some of those same board members also supposedly provide 'safety advice' to the executive team as part of their role, and if that is the case what level of safety advice could they either advise or have input in if they supposedly didn't even know what was going to take place that Saturday?
To date all these decisions that have been actioned call in to question the honesty, integrity and ability of the accountable CEO, so that has an impact on the airlines AOC, what are CASA doing, apart from sitting on their thumbs?????
And finally, dear Senators, are you really prepared to allow this CEO to continue making a mockery of you by his playing this little game of cat and mouse with you? I am hopeful that you are merely giving him enough rope, but it might be time to reel him in?
Remember, there is such a thing as risk, and as long as the game continues the risks grow higher.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ben Sandilands
The Lateline disclosures, last night, and earlier in the year, raise an important question in company law, which is whether or not the duty of senior managers and boards of directors to maximise returns to shareholders absolve them from being decent, honest citizens, or alternatively, that corporations and their executives and boards have a licence to lie in pursuit of their fiduciary duty.
That is the question of the era Ben, excellent work. The principles underpinning modern financial theory are encapsulated in that single question.
I heard a story yesterday of someone who works in flight ops who was going to Melbourne the weekend of the grounding. This was on the Tuesday. His manager said dont go but wouldnt elaborate. Later he saw a very very senior pilot and asked his opinion. The answer was the same , dont go, but wouldnt elaborate. You add in the CC manager sent to Lax on the Friday with United and the courier drivers i think its fair to say it was pre planned.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish, as to your question on the AOC, I notice Lyell Strambi, the actual AOC holder has been very quiet - for the very reasons you hint at. He is the man that actually needs to be answer questions before the inquiry. Management appear to determined to keep him as far from probing questions as possible. He is the key man, because his integrity is key to the fit and proper person test.. Perhaps the good Senator X needs to invite him to answer questions.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: gold coast QLD australia
Age: 86
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, its hard to believe the bloke got up Sat morning, had a scratch, a coffee, a bit of vege on toast, and then thought, I think I will ground Qantas today, that should put the cat amongst the pidgeons for those pesky unions, see how those overpaid bus drivers like being stranded OS. Yep I will do it, picks up phone, gives the order to the amazed person on other end of line, finishes toast, gives press interview, starts to become uncomfortable as entire nation goes ballistic. Realises bitten off more than he can chew, as the interviews heat up, so does the sweating, and then it finally dawns on him being born outside this country, did not give him the same affection for the Icon that Australians have, if QF is flying all is well, and with one phone call he took away the nations comfort blanket. Outraged population, stranded PAX, well what did he expect? And one huge lesson staring him in the face from 89, what happens to this country when its airlines are not functioning and he choose to ignore it. What a complete and absolute tosser and liar.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh for goodness sake, you were out smarted, stoop sooking and get over it.
While people sat here and told of how much harm they were and could continue to inflict, behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan.
Just face it, you loose.
MP.
While people sat here and told of how much harm they were and could continue to inflict, behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan.
Just face it, you loose.
MP.
We lost a battle, however there is a long way to go in the war. A lesson i learnt as a child was that when you told a porky pie it took on a life of its own and inevitably you had to tell more porkies to justify the first one until the whole thing blew up in your face. Sound familiar!!!
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: goulburn
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is all just a war of semantics by Joyce as he clearly had his mind made up and has continued through the current union negotiations.
The term that applies is :"Deceptive by omission".
Re the Board if he didn't need their permission, why did he call a meeting???There is something seriously wrong with Governance at Qantas if his account is correct.
It is not what he said but what he didn't say that changes the whole context of the message conveyed.
Liability...you bet.
The term that applies is :"Deceptive by omission".
Re the Board if he didn't need their permission, why did he call a meeting???There is something seriously wrong with Governance at Qantas if his account is correct.
It is not what he said but what he didn't say that changes the whole context of the message conveyed.
Liability...you bet.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Geez, even managers can't spell LOSE properly these days!! No wonder so many companies are doing so poorly! Their executives keep buggering everything by accident due to grammatical incompetence!!
Manager's Perspective,
"behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan."
-are you telling us that this was not a choice made on a Saturday morning over Vege on toast?
I think the real problem is the claim that this was not a premeditated operation. The shutdown occurred just after the AGM (at which the lockout/grounding was not announced). I agree with the beliefs above that AJ did not alone make this decision. ACCC/ASIC/ASX should be interested.
If the PR department flew home on Virgin, I wonder if those tickets were pre-booked?????
"behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan."
-are you telling us that this was not a choice made on a Saturday morning over Vege on toast?
I think the real problem is the claim that this was not a premeditated operation. The shutdown occurred just after the AGM (at which the lockout/grounding was not announced). I agree with the beliefs above that AJ did not alone make this decision. ACCC/ASIC/ASX should be interested.
If the PR department flew home on Virgin, I wonder if those tickets were pre-booked?????
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone is zero
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ohallen, my mind keep coming back to this post on a different thread by Pundit:
I had a very interesting email from a colleague who is closely associated with Irish Business. It is his opinion that we are all labouring under our Australian beliefs and teachings. AJ isn’t attached to, or constrained by, these beliefs, teaching or our history. He is not an Australian and had been brought up in a Country where intellectual betrayal, or more specifically, mental reservation, casuistry and equivocation are accepted practice.
As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.
The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!
In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.
President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!
Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.
The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’
As he (my colleague) explained, the Collins Dictionary defines mental reservation as....’a tacit withholding of full assent or an unexpressed qualification made when one is taking an oath, making a statement, etc.’ Casuistry is ....’ reasoning that is specious, misleading, or oversubtle’.
The doctrines of mental reservation and casuistry were developed in the middle ages and are most often associated with the Jesuits. Mental reservation involves truths "expressed partly in speech and partly in the mind," relying upon the idea that God hears what is in one's mind while human beings hear only what one speaks. Verbally, “I did not steal any sheep on Tuesday”, mentally continuing, “it was on Wednesday”. It is a way of telling lies while being able to claim that you’ve been completely honest. For instance, the Primate of Ireland, Cardinal Desmond Connell, was comfortable with telling journalists that diocesan funds are not used to pay off the victims of clerical abusers, and he was very pleased with the subtlety of his language. He took great satisfaction in explaining that he didn’t say such funds were not used in the past, and if the journalists happened to be hoodwinked by his clever use of language, why that was just their own misfortune for not being as slippery smart as the Cardinal!
In our culture the statement, “Mr. Boyce is not in the office” typically means that Boyce is not taking phone calls right now (or, at least not this particular phone call). The caller understands (or should understand) that this is a polite way of saying, “Boyce is not available to you at this moment, even though he is actually in the office.” No one is really fooled by this expression using ambiguous language; we simply take it for what it is.
President Bill Clinton was educated at the foremost Jesuit training centre, Georgetown University. According to Clinton's biographer David Maraniss, the President owed his formidable skills as a criminal defendant to 'his training in casuistry at Georgetown University'. Casuistry is equivocal to rationalization, “to cause something to seem reasonable, to provide plausible but untrue reasons for conduct”. We all recall Bill Clinton, a former Rhodes Scholar, insist that he did not have sexual relations with that woman, when most guys in his position would be more than happy to think of what he got up to as just that!
Closer to home there was the Australian Spycatcher affair. Sir Robert Armstrong, now Baron Armstrong, produced the magnificent phrase “economical with the truth”. The world loved the patent absurdity of Armstrong’s phrase, and laughed at it, because we all understood what he meant. Economical with the truth! Every parent knows who took the sweets, or put a football through the window. It was Mister Nobody or maybe a kamikaze.
The question that should be asked of AJ and the QF spin doctors is, ‘Do you have a mental reservation in respect of your statement?’
Managers Perspective:
Obviously you aren't even a managers fundament.
In any business dealing there are representations of good faith when purveying stuff to the General Public. If Qantas can be shown to have been taking money under false pretences, it has committed the crime of fraud.
...And no, making restitution doesn't remove the crime.
The legal dictum now to be invoked is "false in one, false in all" - if Joyce has lied, no one can ever trust anything Qantas says about anything at all - from the safety of the aircraft to the scheduled departure time.
Oh for goodness sake, you were out smarted, stoop sooking and get over it.
While people sat here and told of how much harm they were and could continue to inflict, behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan.
Just face it, you loose.
MP.
While people sat here and told of how much harm they were and could continue to inflict, behind the scenes the little fella was forming his war plan.
Just face it, you loose.
MP.
In any business dealing there are representations of good faith when purveying stuff to the General Public. If Qantas can be shown to have been taking money under false pretences, it has committed the crime of fraud.
...And no, making restitution doesn't remove the crime.
The legal dictum now to be invoked is "false in one, false in all" - if Joyce has lied, no one can ever trust anything Qantas says about anything at all - from the safety of the aircraft to the scheduled departure time.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: goulburn
Posts: 393
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Being a simple person, I wonder whether we actually pander to these types by seeking to try and explain what they are doing and their delusional logic.
There is little doubt that he knew what he was doing, there is little doubt that it was planned to the most minute detail and there is no doubt that the intentions were not disclosed.
Lying and deception come to mind I am afraid.
In the case of the former US president you refer to, he was held to account. He was publicly shunned because the public did not accept the lies rather than the deed itself (which no-one really cared about much). Seems an appropriate analogy.
There is little doubt that he knew what he was doing, there is little doubt that it was planned to the most minute detail and there is no doubt that the intentions were not disclosed.
Lying and deception come to mind I am afraid.
In the case of the former US president you refer to, he was held to account. He was publicly shunned because the public did not accept the lies rather than the deed itself (which no-one really cared about much). Seems an appropriate analogy.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
Posts: 1,116
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
It will come down to semantics on current 'evidence'.
Yes I made the slingshot, gathered the rocks to fire , painted a target on mum's fat bum, told my pals what I had done but it was only just in case I had to use the slingshot, rocks and the target, I never made the decision to shoot mum on the @rse until the last minute.
Yes it looks bad but you never know what will stack up legally.
I dont like these people , their tactics are despicable and trust them nought but they are not stupid, are well advised with plenty of clout in the establishment.
Yes I made the slingshot, gathered the rocks to fire , painted a target on mum's fat bum, told my pals what I had done but it was only just in case I had to use the slingshot, rocks and the target, I never made the decision to shoot mum on the @rse until the last minute.
Yes it looks bad but you never know what will stack up legally.
I dont like these people , their tactics are despicable and trust them nought but they are not stupid, are well advised with plenty of clout in the establishment.
Nunc est bibendum
ampclamp has neatly summed up the Qantas CEO's defence in all this. All the pre planning in the world doesn't mean the decision has been made to 'go' with the action. Again, it wouldn't surprise me if they had booked hotel rooms for the preceding week- and perhaps the week prior to that also. AJ perhaps had even thought about the day after the AGM as 'the day the war began' and war gamed the possible scenarios but he still hadn't made the actual decision until the morning.
It's a bit like crew planning a diversion in the event of bad weather at destination. You put the ducks in a row, make sure you have everything covered in case you make the decision to 'go' but the actual decision to go can be made at multiple places between 'now' and 'PNR'.
I'm not condoning it, part of me even admires the forethought. I just wish they could show the same forethought about things like aircraft configuration, fleet disposition, crewing numbers, route structure, etc. If they put as much thought and effort into actually running the airline as they do trying to screw over the workers we'd be world beaters.
It's a bit like crew planning a diversion in the event of bad weather at destination. You put the ducks in a row, make sure you have everything covered in case you make the decision to 'go' but the actual decision to go can be made at multiple places between 'now' and 'PNR'.
I'm not condoning it, part of me even admires the forethought. I just wish they could show the same forethought about things like aircraft configuration, fleet disposition, crewing numbers, route structure, etc. If they put as much thought and effort into actually running the airline as they do trying to screw over the workers we'd be world beaters.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in the classroom of life
Age: 55
Posts: 6,864
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Keg
Yet again pure gold!
And I don't work there, but as a customer, you're summary is spot on.
I am still not convinced this is AJ's work. It is a repeat of Leigh Clifford's finest, and there is one other brought to my attention who has a similar streak, Cosgrove.
Watch these guys. They were all in it for sure.
Yet again pure gold!
And I don't work there, but as a customer, you're summary is spot on.
I am still not convinced this is AJ's work. It is a repeat of Leigh Clifford's finest, and there is one other brought to my attention who has a similar streak, Cosgrove.
Watch these guys. They were all in it for sure.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Expat land
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who's steering the ship??
If they put as much thought and effort into actually running the airline as they do trying to screw over the workers we'd be world beaters.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Sunny QLD
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Managers Perspective, either you're Gen Y or thick as two planks, or both, but you might earn an ounce of credibility if you learn to spell "lose" , when you tell us we have lost.
You've been told before but you don't seem that bright so I'll tell you again. You ready?
Ok, "Loser" is what you are.
Alan is very "loose" with the truth.
Get it?
Good boy.
You've been told before but you don't seem that bright so I'll tell you again. You ready?
Ok, "Loser" is what you are.
Alan is very "loose" with the truth.
Get it?
Good boy.