MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
There is nothing written therefore there is no requirement for notice of lockout.
If QF could have just locked out the workforce as you say why didn't they just do that rather than stuff around with a safety based shutdown?
Clotted,
I don't think you could have got this more wrong. I don't agree with all of Keg's posts but he presents a reasoned argument in situations where many others have let the anger and agro take over. Maybe it's just self respect, not self-importance.
Keg is just like Senator X. Puffed up full of self importance
Nunc est bibendum
Lol. Thanks conductor. Don't worry too much though. Clotted shows his or her level of maturity and sensible contribution to the discussion by playing the man, not the ball. It's something I'm pretty used to from his sort.
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Nobody, You are one very confused individual.
Joyce gave the government 3 hrs notice of the grounding at 2 pm ,Saturday. He spoke with Albanese, Evans and Gillard's chief of staff. At 5pm he gave all who listened to his press conference approx 51 hrs notice of the proposed lockout. He said on the public record that the grounding was as the result of a safety assessment. Further, he said that the lockout was to bring the dispute to a head (didn't it how?) Fwa convened a hearing for 10 pm and at approx 2am Sunday adjourned any decision until after a hearing on Sunday afternoon. As a result of that hearing PIA was terminated in accordance with the law in the national interest (not because of red ties but because of the grounding).
Any notice that Joyce gave anyone of grounding and or lockout was purely a matter of his choosing.... not any legislated requirement.
Joyce gave the government 3 hrs notice of the grounding at 2 pm ,Saturday. He spoke with Albanese, Evans and Gillard's chief of staff. At 5pm he gave all who listened to his press conference approx 51 hrs notice of the proposed lockout. He said on the public record that the grounding was as the result of a safety assessment. Further, he said that the lockout was to bring the dispute to a head (didn't it how?) Fwa convened a hearing for 10 pm and at approx 2am Sunday adjourned any decision until after a hearing on Sunday afternoon. As a result of that hearing PIA was terminated in accordance with the law in the national interest (not because of red ties but because of the grounding).
Any notice that Joyce gave anyone of grounding and or lockout was purely a matter of his choosing.... not any legislated requirement.
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Here you go, clotted. From the FWA website :
Somebody had hidden the relevant link on the front page 
Unless the industrial action is in response to industrial action taken by the other side, at least three days' notice must be given. The written notice must state the nature of the intended action and the day it will begin.
Notice requirements—employer response action
(5) Before an employer engages in employer response action for a proposed enterprise agreement, the employer must:
(a) give written notice of the action to each bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement; and
(b) take all reasonable steps to notify the employees who will be covered by the agreement of the action.
Notice requirements—content
(6) A notice given under this section must specify the nature of the action and the day on which it will start.
(5) Before an employer engages in employer response action for a proposed enterprise agreement, the employer must:
(a) give written notice of the action to each bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement; and
(b) take all reasonable steps to notify the employees who will be covered by the agreement of the action.
Notice requirements—content
(6) A notice given under this section must specify the nature of the action and the day on which it will start.
Notice requirements—employee claim action
(1) Before a person engages in employee claim action for a proposed enterprise agreement, a bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement must give written notice of the action to the employer of the employee.
(2) The period of notice must be at least:
(a) 3 working days; or
(b) if a protected action ballot order for the employee claim action specifies a longer period of notice for the purposes of this paragraph—that period of notice.
Notice of employee claim action not to be given until ballot results declared
(3) A notice under subsection (1) must not be given until after the results of the protected action ballot for the employee claim action have been declared.
(1) Before a person engages in employee claim action for a proposed enterprise agreement, a bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement must give written notice of the action to the employer of the employee.
(2) The period of notice must be at least:
(a) 3 working days; or
(b) if a protected action ballot order for the employee claim action specifies a longer period of notice for the purposes of this paragraph—that period of notice.
Notice of employee claim action not to be given until ballot results declared
(3) A notice under subsection (1) must not be given until after the results of the protected action ballot for the employee claim action have been declared.
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Unless the industrial action is in response to industrial action taken by the other side,
This exactly the point: the lockout WAS in response to industrial action taken by the other side (AIPA, TWU, AALEA).
Therefore no notice is required.
Notice requirements—employer response action
(5) Before an employer engages in employer response action for a proposed enterprise agreement, the employer must:
(a) give written notice of the action to each bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement; and
(b) take all reasonable steps to notify the employees who will be covered by the agreement of the action.
Notice requirements—content
(6) A notice given under this section must specify the nature of the action and the day on which it will start.
(5) Before an employer engages in employer response action for a proposed enterprise agreement, the employer must:
(a) give written notice of the action to each bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement; and
(b) take all reasonable steps to notify the employees who will be covered by the agreement of the action.
Notice requirements—content
(6) A notice given under this section must specify the nature of the action and the day on which it will start.
However , prime Senator X, Senator for Scotland Cameron and Senators for the TWU from WA and SA, to ask questions about obeying a law that doesn't exist while they are on the witch hunt on Thursday.
Hey Keg, I don't hear you complaining about possible bias on the part of the 2 senators from SA (Gallacher) and WA ( both ex TWU officials) and Senator Cameron (ex AMWU official). They wouldn't be union attack dogs now would they? At least Senator X is educated enough to be able to show respect in pursuing his line of questioning.
Last edited by clotted; 22nd Nov 2011 at 09:18.
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That is exactly what he set out to do and more to the point said publicly that is what he set out to do. It is just the same in cricket when 10 batsmen are out or can't bat the innings is over...that's the rules.
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Safety Issue
So the fleet is grounded due to the "safety issue" that employees that are to to be locked out will go ballistic - ie, the pilots, engineers and ground staff? Why then were the engineers not sent home packing straight away? Instead they continued to work on the aircraft in the fleet - as well as the pollies BBJ - over the rest of the weekend and on the Monday until the lock-out was rescinded.
So the grounding was not really due to any perceived "safety issue" was it AJ?
So the grounding was not really due to any perceived "safety issue" was it AJ?
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W&B you are quite correct.
That exact question was put to Strambi during the FWA hearing on Sat night. He was unable to clearly answer or explain why the engineers were still in the hangar but suggested they must have had suitable supervision.
Executive weasels ALL OF THEM.
That exact question was put to Strambi during the FWA hearing on Sat night. He was unable to clearly answer or explain why the engineers were still in the hangar but suggested they must have had suitable supervision.
Executive weasels ALL OF THEM.
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Great stuff isn't it? Strambi holds the AOC, yet cannot answer a safety related question as to why engineers were still working on aircraft after the lockout commenced, which by the way was instigated due to 'safety concerns?
So the CEO who is the accountable person does not advise the AOC holder Strambi, nor does he tell the Board of whom some ironically advise senior management safety matters?
Sorry, where or what is CASA doing again?
So the CEO who is the accountable person does not advise the AOC holder Strambi, nor does he tell the Board of whom some ironically advise senior management safety matters?
Sorry, where or what is CASA doing again?
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Well, in this clip Albanese, has stolen AJs lines, saying "progress has been made" and there is "certainty for the traveling public over the holiday period."
meanwhile, this story breaks today in the smh...
Well as I said before, the whole thing is a great big mess, so many mixed messages. I agree with the AIPA call for a judicial inquiry. FWA has lost a lot of credibility as the umpire for this dispute keeping in mind the Victorian nurses thingy which has headed off in another direction. A judicial inquiry is needed to clear the air, there are too many questions that need some answers, before it can all go forward IMHO.
meanwhile, this story breaks today in the smh...
Qantas union raises spectre of holiday flight disruptions
Jessica Wright, Kelly Burke
November 23, 2011
QANTAS passengers could be stranded during the Christmas holidays after a leading unionist refused to rule out further industrial action against the airline.
The national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, Tony Sheldon, said yesterday that his union intended to negotiate and proceed with the compulsory Fair Work Australia arbitration process in the dispute between the airline and workers.
But Mr Sheldon accused Qantas of using ''militant'' tactics, and said union members would ''exercise their rights'' if they were dissatisfied with the process.
''If the company refuses to negotiate with us in good faith, leading up to and through the arbitration process, then there is every possibility that there would be further disruptions that would occur in the aviation industry,'' he said.
''We are not looking for that fight, but the workforce is prepared to stand up for its rights.''
Long-haul pilots with Qantas have demanded a judicial inquiry into whether the airline's chief executive, Alan Joyce, misled a Senate inquiry into the grounding of domestic and international fleets three weeks ago.
The call for the inquiry by the Australian and International Pilots Association followed a report that private couriers were booked to deliver lockout notices before the Qantas annual meeting last month.
Mr Joyce told the Senate inquiry under oath that the decision to ground all aircraft on November 1 was made on the morning of October 29, the day after the company's annual shareholder meeting.
But two couriers who work for Direct Couriers and remain anonymous supplied written statements to the ABC's Lateline program saying in the days before the Qantas grounding, drivers were booked to deliver lockout notices. They said that on October 27 they were asked to work on Sunday, October 30, to help deliver lockout notices to about 6000 Qantas staff.
There are mounting allegations that Mr Joyce was planning to lock out staff long before October 29, but kept the plans secret from shareholders.
He said there had been contingencies made for a lockout but denied making firm plans.
''There are going to be conspiracy theories. The fact is the decision was made on the Saturday,'' Mr Joyce said.
Since talks between Qantas and three of its unions have collapsed, Fair Work Australia will arbitrate on all outstanding matters, which could take up to six months.
The unions are furious the dispute has gone to compulsory arbitration. Mr Sheldon said yesterday the union would decide ''later this week whether we appeal the court decision from three weeks ago''.
He said unions would need to have Fair Work's termination ruling overturned in the Federal Court before they could seek further protected action.
The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, which is a Qantas shareholder, also expects the airline to hand over its share register tomorrow. The union plans to contact the airline's top 5000 shareholders in an attempt to muster the 100 or more required to call an extraordinary meeting
Read more: Qantas union raises spectre of holiday flight disruptions
Jessica Wright, Kelly Burke
November 23, 2011
QANTAS passengers could be stranded during the Christmas holidays after a leading unionist refused to rule out further industrial action against the airline.
The national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, Tony Sheldon, said yesterday that his union intended to negotiate and proceed with the compulsory Fair Work Australia arbitration process in the dispute between the airline and workers.
But Mr Sheldon accused Qantas of using ''militant'' tactics, and said union members would ''exercise their rights'' if they were dissatisfied with the process.
''If the company refuses to negotiate with us in good faith, leading up to and through the arbitration process, then there is every possibility that there would be further disruptions that would occur in the aviation industry,'' he said.
''We are not looking for that fight, but the workforce is prepared to stand up for its rights.''
Long-haul pilots with Qantas have demanded a judicial inquiry into whether the airline's chief executive, Alan Joyce, misled a Senate inquiry into the grounding of domestic and international fleets three weeks ago.
The call for the inquiry by the Australian and International Pilots Association followed a report that private couriers were booked to deliver lockout notices before the Qantas annual meeting last month.
Mr Joyce told the Senate inquiry under oath that the decision to ground all aircraft on November 1 was made on the morning of October 29, the day after the company's annual shareholder meeting.
But two couriers who work for Direct Couriers and remain anonymous supplied written statements to the ABC's Lateline program saying in the days before the Qantas grounding, drivers were booked to deliver lockout notices. They said that on October 27 they were asked to work on Sunday, October 30, to help deliver lockout notices to about 6000 Qantas staff.
There are mounting allegations that Mr Joyce was planning to lock out staff long before October 29, but kept the plans secret from shareholders.
He said there had been contingencies made for a lockout but denied making firm plans.
''There are going to be conspiracy theories. The fact is the decision was made on the Saturday,'' Mr Joyce said.
Since talks between Qantas and three of its unions have collapsed, Fair Work Australia will arbitrate on all outstanding matters, which could take up to six months.
The unions are furious the dispute has gone to compulsory arbitration. Mr Sheldon said yesterday the union would decide ''later this week whether we appeal the court decision from three weeks ago''.
He said unions would need to have Fair Work's termination ruling overturned in the Federal Court before they could seek further protected action.
The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, which is a Qantas shareholder, also expects the airline to hand over its share register tomorrow. The union plans to contact the airline's top 5000 shareholders in an attempt to muster the 100 or more required to call an extraordinary meeting
Read more: Qantas union raises spectre of holiday flight disruptions
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The reason for the grounding was apparently for safety reasons.
What were these safety reasons?
What were these safety reasons?
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economic truthfullness
The gnomish irishman has yet again been found to be guilding the lilly when tested.
Qantas death-threat probe ... dies
Matt O'Sullivan
November 23, 2011 - 11:53AM
The NSW Police have, without explanation, dropped their investigation into alleged death threats made against Qantas's chief executive Alan Joyce and other senior managers.
Complaints from Qantas about threatening letters and emails led to police forming a taskforce during the escalating industrial dispute with unions representing long-haul pilots, aircraft engineers and ground crew including baggage handlers.
But NSW Police have confirmed that Strike Force Barrine – made up of officers from Botany Bay Local Area Command – has decided not to continue the investigation.
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A police spokesman would not elaborate on the reasons that the investigation had ended.
"As far as the investigation is concerned, it was alive and now it's not," he said.
The Australian Federal Police have also confirmed that they were "not investigating any specific threats made against Qantas executives and employees".
The alleged threats received widespread media coverage in early October, but unions questioned whether they were a "PR stunt" by the airline to win public support.
Qantas contacted police after Mr Joyce received a threatening letter in May, which contained the name and address of the author. The police later deemed that the letter did not constitute a death threat, although the author was spoken to and the "matter finalised".
Police were also notified on October 5 about an email sent to Mr Joyce which contained in its subject line the words "death threats". However, the body copy of the email did not use those words.
Other matters referred to police included complaints that a Qantas employee had received a threatening letter on September 27 and several hang-up phone calls at their home.
The taskforce also attempted to "confirm reports that were allegedly made to company security officers about malicious damage to vehicles parked in a car park".
In early October as the bitter industrial dispute was escalating, Mr Joyce sent a memo to the airline's 35,000-strong workforce informing them that he had referred to police incidents whereby executives had "received menacing correspondence, including to their homes".
The memo stated: "Those who are in the business of using threats, violence and intimidation to obtain their industrial ends should know this: these tactics are cowardly and deplorable. They will not work. Anyone who is caught will face the full consequences."
Mr Joyce later said that Qantas decided to go public at the time because "the bullying and intimidation [of staff] seemed to be going to a new level".
But police say the matter will go no further.
Qantas death-threat probe ... dies
Matt O'Sullivan
November 23, 2011 - 11:53AM
The NSW Police have, without explanation, dropped their investigation into alleged death threats made against Qantas's chief executive Alan Joyce and other senior managers.
Complaints from Qantas about threatening letters and emails led to police forming a taskforce during the escalating industrial dispute with unions representing long-haul pilots, aircraft engineers and ground crew including baggage handlers.
But NSW Police have confirmed that Strike Force Barrine – made up of officers from Botany Bay Local Area Command – has decided not to continue the investigation.
Advertisement: Story continues below
A police spokesman would not elaborate on the reasons that the investigation had ended.
"As far as the investigation is concerned, it was alive and now it's not," he said.
The Australian Federal Police have also confirmed that they were "not investigating any specific threats made against Qantas executives and employees".
The alleged threats received widespread media coverage in early October, but unions questioned whether they were a "PR stunt" by the airline to win public support.
Qantas contacted police after Mr Joyce received a threatening letter in May, which contained the name and address of the author. The police later deemed that the letter did not constitute a death threat, although the author was spoken to and the "matter finalised".
Police were also notified on October 5 about an email sent to Mr Joyce which contained in its subject line the words "death threats". However, the body copy of the email did not use those words.
Other matters referred to police included complaints that a Qantas employee had received a threatening letter on September 27 and several hang-up phone calls at their home.
The taskforce also attempted to "confirm reports that were allegedly made to company security officers about malicious damage to vehicles parked in a car park".
In early October as the bitter industrial dispute was escalating, Mr Joyce sent a memo to the airline's 35,000-strong workforce informing them that he had referred to police incidents whereby executives had "received menacing correspondence, including to their homes".
The memo stated: "Those who are in the business of using threats, violence and intimidation to obtain their industrial ends should know this: these tactics are cowardly and deplorable. They will not work. Anyone who is caught will face the full consequences."
Mr Joyce later said that Qantas decided to go public at the time because "the bullying and intimidation [of staff] seemed to be going to a new level".
But police say the matter will go no further.
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Qantas Responses to questions on notice have been posted onto the aph website.
Apart from the carefully worded responses apparently Jetstar need additional time to compile the rosters that Senator X asked for.
Surely they have already been published some time ago and it is just a case of putting it through a photocopier!!
More to Follow
The Kelpie
Apart from the carefully worded responses apparently Jetstar need additional time to compile the rosters that Senator X asked for.
Surely they have already been published some time ago and it is just a case of putting it through a photocopier!!
More to Follow
The Kelpie
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Lads, was I was the last one to know that the lead singer in Iron Maiden, Bruce Dickinson, is a senior airline capt.? Hows that for moonlighting! Off subject I know but thought it would give you some cause for optimism, thats if you can sing of course.
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Run to the hills
Qantas Responses to questions on notice have been posted onto the aph website.
Apart from the carefully worded responses apparently Jetstar need additional time to compile the rosters that Senator X asked for.
Apart from the carefully worded responses apparently Jetstar need additional time to compile the rosters that Senator X asked for.
They were worried about what the Pilots and Engineers would do - oh hang on, we (Engineers) were performing work packages on the aircraft they were worried about on Saturday and Sunday.
Lads, was I was the last one to know that the lead singer in Iron Maiden, Bruce Dickinson, is a senior airline capt.? Hows that for moonlighting! Off subject I know but thought it would give you some cause for optimism, thats if you can sing of course.
. Now if only QF would play some onboard music like Iron Maiden, Dead Kennedys, Judas Priest and early Black Sabbath! Incidentally, 'Eddie the beast master' reminds me of Wirthless. Same stylist.
Last edited by gobbledock; 23rd Nov 2011 at 05:11.
Nunc est bibendum
Please oh please can we turn off the stupid fricking setting that changes Face B.O.O.K into FacePPRUNE and T.W.I.T.T.E.R into PPRUNE? It was interesting for a bit but with recent articles it's just bloody stupid. 
