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MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

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MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.

Old 22nd Nov 2011, 06:25
  #1401 (permalink)  
 
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There is nothing written therefore there is no requirement for notice of lockout.
So why then is there so much mention of the '72 hours notice' in the FWA hearing? The entire Qantas argument for the shutdown of the airline was that they had to give 72 hours notice and that it was a safety threat so therefore it is safer to ground the airline. If there is no requirement as you say the statements in the hearing are completely illogical. Their whole justification for the shutdown was that they had to give 72 hours notice.

If QF could have just locked out the workforce as you say why didn't they just do that rather than stuff around with a safety based shutdown?
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 06:36
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Clotted,

Keg is just like Senator X. Puffed up full of self importance
I don't think you could have got this more wrong. I don't agree with all of Keg's posts but he presents a reasoned argument in situations where many others have let the anger and agro take over. Maybe it's just self respect, not self-importance.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 06:36
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That'll never happen....the collingwood part that is
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 07:14
  #1404 (permalink)  
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Lol. Thanks conductor. Don't worry too much though. Clotted shows his or her level of maturity and sensible contribution to the discussion by playing the man, not the ball. It's something I'm pretty used to from his sort.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 07:17
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Nobody, You are one very confused individual.
Joyce gave the government 3 hrs notice of the grounding at 2 pm ,Saturday. He spoke with Albanese, Evans and Gillard's chief of staff. At 5pm he gave all who listened to his press conference approx 51 hrs notice of the proposed lockout. He said on the public record that the grounding was as the result of a safety assessment. Further, he said that the lockout was to bring the dispute to a head (didn't it how?) Fwa convened a hearing for 10 pm and at approx 2am Sunday adjourned any decision until after a hearing on Sunday afternoon. As a result of that hearing PIA was terminated in accordance with the law in the national interest (not because of red ties but because of the grounding).
Any notice that Joyce gave anyone of grounding and or lockout was purely a matter of his choosing.... not any legislated requirement.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 07:18
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Here you go, clotted. From the FWA website :

Unless the industrial action is in response to industrial action taken by the other side, at least three days' notice must be given. The written notice must state the nature of the intended action and the day it will begin.
Somebody had hidden the relevant link on the front page
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 07:25
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Notice requirements—employer response action
(5) Before an employer engages in employer response action for a proposed enterprise agreement, the employer must:

(a) give written notice of the action to each bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement; and

(b) take all reasonable steps to notify the employees who will be covered by the agreement of the action.

Notice requirements—content

(6) A notice given under this section must specify the nature of the action and the day on which it will start.
There is NO requirement for the employer to give 72hrs notice of lockout. The 72hr is applicable for employee notice requirements.

Notice requirements—employee claim action
(1) Before a person engages in employee claim action for a proposed enterprise agreement, a bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement must give written notice of the action to the employer of the employee.

(2) The period of notice must be at least:

(a) 3 working days; or

(b) if a protected action ballot order for the employee claim action specifies a longer period of notice for the purposes of this paragraph—that period of notice.

Notice of employee claim action not to be given until ballot results declared

(3) A notice under subsection (1) must not be given until after the results of the protected action ballot for the employee claim action have been declared.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 07:36
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Unless the industrial action is in response to industrial action taken by the other side,
Liv,
This exactly the point: the lockout WAS in response to industrial action taken by the other side (AIPA, TWU, AALEA).
Therefore no notice is required.

Notice requirements—employer response action
(5) Before an employer engages in employer response action for a proposed enterprise agreement, the employer must:

(a) give written notice of the action to each bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the agreement; and

(b) take all reasonable steps to notify the employees who will be covered by the agreement of the action.

Notice requirements—content

(6) A notice given under this section must specify the nature of the action and the day on which it will start.
This is what the couriers were placed on alert to carry out. This is what some people complained about being woken during the night when the written notice was delivered.



However , prime Senator X, Senator for Scotland Cameron and Senators for the TWU from WA and SA, to ask questions about obeying a law that doesn't exist while they are on the witch hunt on Thursday.

Hey Keg, I don't hear you complaining about possible bias on the part of the 2 senators from SA (Gallacher) and WA ( both ex TWU officials) and Senator Cameron (ex AMWU official). They wouldn't be union attack dogs now would they? At least Senator X is educated enough to be able to show respect in pursuing his line of questioning.

Last edited by clotted; 22nd Nov 2011 at 08:18.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 07:51
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Maybe AIPA and FWA needs to enlist the help of Virgin, ask them to check there bookings, when did the QF PR team book Virgin.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 08:01
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That is exactly what he set out to do and more to the point said publicly that is what he set out to do. It is just the same in cricket when 10 batsmen are out or can't bat the innings is over...that's the rules.
Why is it then considered that people working to rule is industrial action?
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 09:03
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Safety Issue

So the fleet is grounded due to the "safety issue" that employees that are to to be locked out will go ballistic - ie, the pilots, engineers and ground staff? Why then were the engineers not sent home packing straight away? Instead they continued to work on the aircraft in the fleet - as well as the pollies BBJ - over the rest of the weekend and on the Monday until the lock-out was rescinded.

So the grounding was not really due to any perceived "safety issue" was it AJ?
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 10:35
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W&B you are quite correct.

That exact question was put to Strambi during the FWA hearing on Sat night. He was unable to clearly answer or explain why the engineers were still in the hangar but suggested they must have had suitable supervision.

Executive weasels ALL OF THEM.
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 10:52
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Great stuff isn't it? Strambi holds the AOC, yet cannot answer a safety related question as to why engineers were still working on aircraft after the lockout commenced, which by the way was instigated due to 'safety concerns?
So the CEO who is the accountable person does not advise the AOC holder Strambi, nor does he tell the Board of whom some ironically advise senior management safety matters?

Sorry, where or what is CASA doing again?
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Old 22nd Nov 2011, 15:52
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Well, in this clip Albanese, has stolen AJs lines, saying "progress has been made" and there is "certainty for the traveling public over the holiday period."





meanwhile, this story breaks today in the smh...

Qantas union raises spectre of holiday flight disruptions

Jessica Wright, Kelly Burke

November 23, 2011


QANTAS passengers could be stranded during the Christmas holidays after a leading unionist refused to rule out further industrial action against the airline.
The national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, Tony Sheldon, said yesterday that his union intended to negotiate and proceed with the compulsory Fair Work Australia arbitration process in the dispute between the airline and workers.


But Mr Sheldon accused Qantas of using ''militant'' tactics, and said union members would ''exercise their rights'' if they were dissatisfied with the process.

''If the company refuses to negotiate with us in good faith, leading up to and through the arbitration process, then there is every possibility that there would be further disruptions that would occur in the aviation industry,'' he said.
''We are not looking for that fight, but the workforce is prepared to stand up for its rights.''


Long-haul pilots with Qantas have demanded a judicial inquiry into whether the airline's chief executive, Alan Joyce, misled a Senate inquiry into the grounding of domestic and international fleets three weeks ago.
The call for the inquiry by the Australian and International Pilots Association followed a report that private couriers were booked to deliver lockout notices before the Qantas annual meeting last month.


Mr Joyce told the Senate inquiry under oath that the decision to ground all aircraft on November 1 was made on the morning of October 29, the day after the company's annual shareholder meeting.


But two couriers who work for Direct Couriers and remain anonymous supplied written statements to the ABC's Lateline program saying in the days before the Qantas grounding, drivers were booked to deliver lockout notices. They said that on October 27 they were asked to work on Sunday, October 30, to help deliver lockout notices to about 6000 Qantas staff.
There are mounting allegations that Mr Joyce was planning to lock out staff long before October 29, but kept the plans secret from shareholders.
He said there had been contingencies made for a lockout but denied making firm plans.


''There are going to be conspiracy theories. The fact is the decision was made on the Saturday,'' Mr Joyce said.
Since talks between Qantas and three of its unions have collapsed, Fair Work Australia will arbitrate on all outstanding matters, which could take up to six months.


The unions are furious the dispute has gone to compulsory arbitration. Mr Sheldon said yesterday the union would decide ''later this week whether we appeal the court decision from three weeks ago''.


He said unions would need to have Fair Work's termination ruling overturned in the Federal Court before they could seek further protected action.


The Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union, which is a Qantas shareholder, also expects the airline to hand over its share register tomorrow. The union plans to contact the airline's top 5000 shareholders in an attempt to muster the 100 or more required to call an extraordinary meeting

Read more: Qantas union raises spectre of holiday flight disruptions
Well as I said before, the whole thing is a great big mess, so many mixed messages. I agree with the AIPA call for a judicial inquiry. FWA has lost a lot of credibility as the umpire for this dispute keeping in mind the Victorian nurses thingy which has headed off in another direction. A judicial inquiry is needed to clear the air, there are too many questions that need some answers, before it can all go forward IMHO.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 01:09
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The reason for the grounding was apparently for safety reasons.
What were these safety reasons?
They were worried about what the Pilots and Engineers would do - oh hang on, we (Engineers) were performing work packages on the aircraft they were worried about on Saturday and Sunday.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 01:21
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economic truthfullness

The gnomish irishman has yet again been found to be guilding the lilly when tested.


Qantas death-threat probe ... dies
Matt O'Sullivan
November 23, 2011 - 11:53AM

The NSW Police have, without explanation, dropped their investigation into alleged death threats made against Qantas's chief executive Alan Joyce and other senior managers.

Complaints from Qantas about threatening letters and emails led to police forming a taskforce during the escalating industrial dispute with unions representing long-haul pilots, aircraft engineers and ground crew including baggage handlers.

But NSW Police have confirmed that Strike Force Barrine – made up of officers from Botany Bay Local Area Command – has decided not to continue the investigation.
Advertisement: Story continues below

A police spokesman would not elaborate on the reasons that the investigation had ended.

"As far as the investigation is concerned, it was alive and now it's not," he said.

The Australian Federal Police have also confirmed that they were "not investigating any specific threats made against Qantas executives and employees".

The alleged threats received widespread media coverage in early October, but unions questioned whether they were a "PR stunt" by the airline to win public support.

Qantas contacted police after Mr Joyce received a threatening letter in May, which contained the name and address of the author. The police later deemed that the letter did not constitute a death threat, although the author was spoken to and the "matter finalised".

Police were also notified on October 5 about an email sent to Mr Joyce which contained in its subject line the words "death threats". However, the body copy of the email did not use those words.

Other matters referred to police included complaints that a Qantas employee had received a threatening letter on September 27 and several hang-up phone calls at their home.

The taskforce also attempted to "confirm reports that were allegedly made to company security officers about malicious damage to vehicles parked in a car park".

In early October as the bitter industrial dispute was escalating, Mr Joyce sent a memo to the airline's 35,000-strong workforce informing them that he had referred to police incidents whereby executives had "received menacing correspondence, including to their homes".

The memo stated: "Those who are in the business of using threats, violence and intimidation to obtain their industrial ends should know this: these tactics are cowardly and deplorable. They will not work. Anyone who is caught will face the full consequences."

Mr Joyce later said that Qantas decided to go public at the time because "the bullying and intimidation [of staff] seemed to be going to a new level".

But police say the matter will go no further.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 01:27
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Qantas Responses to questions on notice have been posted onto the aph website.

Apart from the carefully worded responses apparently Jetstar need additional time to compile the rosters that Senator X asked for.

Surely they have already been published some time ago and it is just a case of putting it through a photocopier!!

More to Follow

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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 01:47
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Lads, was I was the last one to know that the lead singer in Iron Maiden, Bruce Dickinson, is a senior airline capt.? Hows that for moonlighting! Off subject I know but thought it would give you some cause for optimism, thats if you can sing of course.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 03:57
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Run to the hills

Qantas Responses to questions on notice have been posted onto the aph website.
Apart from the carefully worded responses apparently Jetstar need additional time to compile the rosters that Senator X asked for.
Kelpie, you are spot on. How long does it take to reproduce the rosters? I made a post almost immediately when the Senator asked the roster questions of Brucey, and I suggested that any staff who had copies or originals better hide them or save them, or forward them through to Senator Xenophon, I am hoping they did.

They were worried about what the Pilots and Engineers would do - oh hang on, we (Engineers) were performing work packages on the aircraft they were worried about on Saturday and Sunday.
Aveng I couldnt agree more, why were Engineers still allowed to work when the whole 'grounding/lockout'whatever you wish to call it, was actioned due to supposed safety concerns?

Lads, was I was the last one to know that the lead singer in Iron Maiden, Bruce Dickinson, is a senior airline capt.? Hows that for moonlighting! Off subject I know but thought it would give you some cause for optimism, thats if you can sing of course.
TG, great band, one of the true pioneers of the metal movement, Bruce went from a love of one type of metal to another. Now if only QF would play some onboard music like Iron Maiden, Dead Kennedys, Judas Priest and early Black Sabbath!
Incidentally, 'Eddie the beast master' reminds me of Wirthless. Same stylist.

Last edited by gobbledock; 23rd Nov 2011 at 04:11.
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Old 23rd Nov 2011, 04:34
  #1420 (permalink)  
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Danger

Please oh please can we turn off the stupid fricking setting that changes Face B.O.O.K into FacePPRUNE and T.W.I.T.T.E.R into PPRUNE? It was interesting for a bit but with recent articles it's just bloody stupid.
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