MERGED: Qantas grounded effective immediately.
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@peuce - see post 238 on page 12 http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...ml#post6777414, and post 481 on page 25 http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting...iately-25.html. These give my position, and pose some questions, which QF94 addressed very cordially (thank you). I don't know if those links work - not sure of the 'system'.
And I don't think reality allows it to be up to the majority of Australians to decide what happens to Qantas. It's probably in this order:
The major shareholders, who appoint the directors, who appoint the CEO, etc. The government has a say through legislation, and the public has a say through buying tickets or not.
peuce: "But, for the life of me, I can't understand how a majority of Australians would be happy with a very limited number of shareholders lining their pockets ... at the expense of the draining of national expertise, employment opportunities, infrastructure, skills, capability and assets."
The majority of Australians have seen manufacturing infrastructre disappear, sometimes with their jobs. Read my earlier posts.
@peuce: "Can you please explain to me ... what is in it for 99% of Australians?
What am I missing?"
More affordable airfares/cheaper airfares. Do you think 99% of Australian care where their TV was manufactured, or their computer, or the clothes they are wearing? Do they pay more for Australian manufactured goods. NO - history shows this is not the case. Who owns Vegemite, where are King Gee clothes manufactured, etc etc.
I'm not saying this is "right", I'm just saying it is real.
And I don't think reality allows it to be up to the majority of Australians to decide what happens to Qantas. It's probably in this order:
The major shareholders, who appoint the directors, who appoint the CEO, etc. The government has a say through legislation, and the public has a say through buying tickets or not.
peuce: "But, for the life of me, I can't understand how a majority of Australians would be happy with a very limited number of shareholders lining their pockets ... at the expense of the draining of national expertise, employment opportunities, infrastructure, skills, capability and assets."
The majority of Australians have seen manufacturing infrastructre disappear, sometimes with their jobs. Read my earlier posts.
@peuce: "Can you please explain to me ... what is in it for 99% of Australians?
What am I missing?"
More affordable airfares/cheaper airfares. Do you think 99% of Australian care where their TV was manufactured, or their computer, or the clothes they are wearing? Do they pay more for Australian manufactured goods. NO - history shows this is not the case. Who owns Vegemite, where are King Gee clothes manufactured, etc etc.
I'm not saying this is "right", I'm just saying it is real.
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AFP investigates Qantas plane 'sabotage'
The Australian Federal Police are investigating a claim that a Qantas jet was sabotaged last week while undergoing maintenance at Brisbane Airport.
and
But the federal secretary of the Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Union, Steve Purvinas, rejected the notion that the incident was sabotage.
It was his union's engineer members who spotted damage to an entertainment system wiring loom as it was being fitted, he said.
"It happened last week when some wires were found to be damaged in a wiring loom that was being fitted to a new [entertainment] system," Mr Purvinas said.
"The most likely situation is that these wires were damaged during manufacturing.
"It was actually members of ours who picked it up - and reported it," he said.
The wiring looms normally come preassembled, Mr Purvinas said.
Read more: AFP investigates Qantas plane 'sabotage'
The Australian Federal Police are investigating a claim that a Qantas jet was sabotaged last week while undergoing maintenance at Brisbane Airport.
and
But the federal secretary of the Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Union, Steve Purvinas, rejected the notion that the incident was sabotage.
It was his union's engineer members who spotted damage to an entertainment system wiring loom as it was being fitted, he said.
"It happened last week when some wires were found to be damaged in a wiring loom that was being fitted to a new [entertainment] system," Mr Purvinas said.
"The most likely situation is that these wires were damaged during manufacturing.
"It was actually members of ours who picked it up - and reported it," he said.
The wiring looms normally come preassembled, Mr Purvinas said.
Read more: AFP investigates Qantas plane 'sabotage'
"As this is an ongoing matter it would be inappropriate for the AFP to comment further," the police said.
.
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Where is all this heading? Why make this so public now if it is a real threat?..... what will punters make of this? It's just crazy..... who leaked this story?
Again more questions than answers, more uncertainty.
Again more questions than answers, more uncertainty.
In a media war like this perception has an immediate impact , facts may take weeks or months to come out after the damage has been done and everyone has forgotten what the original issue was.
So far the reasons given for the grounding were stress and now obliquely and not said directly ... aircraft sabotage
.
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See the share price is moving down , looks like the institutional funds have run out , so no more propping up the share price . This is when we see the real impact !!!!
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As a Proud Qantas employee for more than 20 years, I am going to enforce my own democratic protest without instruction from my Union.
I am imposing an Overtime Lockout on myself until I feel a time I need to remove it.
And just to rub the salt in, I didn't have to ring anyone.
As this is my ONLY option, I wish to apologize to my wife for spending more time with her than usual.
Please feel free to join me.
Save Our Qantas
I am imposing an Overtime Lockout on myself until I feel a time I need to remove it.
And just to rub the salt in, I didn't have to ring anyone.
As this is my ONLY option, I wish to apologize to my wife for spending more time with her than usual.
Please feel free to join me.
Save Our Qantas
David 1300,
From reading your posts, you seem to have a cynical (but perhaps accurate) view of the public's view of Qantas.
That doesn't mean their view can't be changed.
If their view is as you see it, then they will indeed get a short term fix of cheap tickets... with the long term consequences of the drain I alluded to.
On the other hand, if they have (or can be convinced to have) a longer term interest in the national asset that is Qantas, they will fight for it.
Doesn't mean I, or they, have to accept it. There's always a straw to break the camel's back. This issue may be it.
Yes, and we are the Government. Not Abbott, not Gillard ... us. We have the power ... IF we choose to use it.
I take a more positive view of Australians' attitude ... and I hope I'm proven correct.
The important point to understand is that my position is a political position, not an industrial one. The 2-3% payrise and the extra coffee breaks and the extra photocopy paper will be determined in the FWA courtrooms. I think the company's direction is outside the scope of the FWA arena.
That issue will be played out afterwards ... in a political forum.
I think your generalisation is not correct in this case. I know many people, including myself, who have paid a premium for riding in a Qantas bus. Admittedly, that occurrence is reducing as the Qantas product has deteriorated.
From reading your posts, you seem to have a cynical (but perhaps accurate) view of the public's view of Qantas.
That doesn't mean their view can't be changed.
If their view is as you see it, then they will indeed get a short term fix of cheap tickets... with the long term consequences of the drain I alluded to.
On the other hand, if they have (or can be convinced to have) a longer term interest in the national asset that is Qantas, they will fight for it.
The majority of Australians have seen manufacturing infrastructre disappear, sometimes with their jobs.
The major shareholders, who appoint the directors, who appoint the CEO, etc. The government has a say through legislation, and the public has a say through buying tickets or not.
I take a more positive view of Australians' attitude ... and I hope I'm proven correct.
The important point to understand is that my position is a political position, not an industrial one. The 2-3% payrise and the extra coffee breaks and the extra photocopy paper will be determined in the FWA courtrooms. I think the company's direction is outside the scope of the FWA arena.
That issue will be played out afterwards ... in a political forum.
Do they pay more for Australian manufactured goods. NO - history shows this is not the case.
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Quote:
As a Proud Qantas employee for more than 20 years, I am going to enforce my own democratic protest without instruction from my Union.
I am imposing an Overtime Lockout on myself until I feel a time I need to remove it.
And just to rub the salt in, I didn't have to ring anyone.
As this is my ONLY option, I wish to apologize to my wife for spending more time with her than usual.
Please feel free to join me.
Save Our Qantas
I too am with you.
As a Proud Qantas employee for more than 20 years, I am going to enforce my own democratic protest without instruction from my Union.
I am imposing an Overtime Lockout on myself until I feel a time I need to remove it.
And just to rub the salt in, I didn't have to ring anyone.
As this is my ONLY option, I wish to apologize to my wife for spending more time with her than usual.
Please feel free to join me.
Save Our Qantas
I too am with you.
- Go to work, do what is asked of me, do that within the policies and procedures and within the aviation acts and regulations.
- Work with my colleagues and counterparts, not against them.
- The work will take as long as it takes to ensure maximum safety to both aircraft and human life. Safety Before Schedule.
- Sign off and go home.
Really?
Impact
Impact
Impact
Impact
Impact
Impact
I guess my question more directly then is "How does he weigh up the effect of an immediate grounding causing significant brand damage, with the option of a (say) 72hr delay that I'm sure he knew would have exactly the same outcome minus the significant trashing of the brand?"
How does a CEO justify making such a decision without incurring the wrath of almost everyone who has any interest in the travel and tourism industry?
It amazes me that some in the Tourism industry congratulate Joyce but can't see that the same result was achievable without further threatening their livelihood.
C441,
He didn't.
Considering the obviously foreseeable backlash and the huge loss of Qantas income .... imagine how large the end prize must be?
How does a CEO justify making such a decision without incurring the wrath of almost everyone who has any interest in the travel and tourism industry?
Considering the obviously foreseeable backlash and the huge loss of Qantas income .... imagine how large the end prize must be?
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The end prize is only worth something if they can put the working innards and cost structure of Jetstar under the external brand and reputation of Qantas , charging a higher end price with low cost inner workings , if the revenue drops sharply the end prize value will drop accordingly.
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Interesting that the company secretary "retired" on Monday...
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Interesting that the company secretary "retired" on Monday...
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T28D - The issue of the breaking of the mining unions in the Iron Ore areas of W.A. has no comparison with the current Qantas/union dispute.
The mining unions in the Iron Ore areas of W.A. (and the W.A. Goldfields as well, to a certain degree) in the late 1960's and early 1970's, were controlled by militant thugs, who rode over weak management like a bus flattens a childs trike.
These thugs indulged in strike action at will, initiated by any spurious reason, using thug tactics amongst their members, and ensuring that secret ballots on strike action would never be instigated.
The scenario is a common one, and as a ex-mining contractor, I used to watch this scenario in disgust. A union meeting would be held right at shift changeover, at 4:00 PM.
Beer was freely handed out, and a professional union thug would take the soapbox, and whip up the workers with regard to some petty issue.
The issue was always overblown (flies in the mess, inadequate ice-cream varieties available, inadequate food quality, or some other "perceived" grievance), and the shop steward thug would call for a show of hands for a strike.
There were always the "union men for life" scattered amongst the workers, and upon the call for a show of hands, the "union men for life" would shoot their hands sky-high... then turn and glare at those who didn't have their hands up.
This resulted in a slow increase in the number of hands raised, until the union thug on the soapbox declared he had a "majority showing", and it was "everyone out!".
I would speak to moderate-view individuals later, independently, enquiring about what had transpired, and would always get the same answer... "everyone else had their hand up, so I felt obliged to do so, too". Union intimidation at its best.
These thugs ended up controlling the Iron Ore operations at will, and their demands were utterly outrageous. Demands for prime steaks for lunch for employees, descended into outright greed, where large coolers were filled with prime steaks, that fed the workers entire family for a week, cost-free.
The breaking of these outrageous thug-driven unions was needed, and the balance between unions and management restored. We no longer have very many of these style of unions, and they deserve no place in todays society.
On the other hand, this airline grounding exercise of Joyce, Clifford and the Qantas board, in retaliation for some very modest union activism, ranks on a par with Henry Fords actions against the auto-manufacturers unions.
All that's missing is the company thugs beating the crap out of the Qantas union organisers.
The lack of management ability of this board, coupled with an inability... nay, basically a refusal... to negotiate in good faith with unions, is a sign that this management sees the workers as the "enemy", to be manipulated, ambushed, and generally trodden underfoot, until they (the board) have a group that is totally subservient to them. This is not the way management and employees should engage in a properly-functioning company.
As has been mentioned previously, the Qantas of today is the result of 90 years of unfailing effort by employees, guided by competent management (up until the last few years, anyway).
This board ranks as little more than a blip on the radar, in the history of Qantas, taken into context of the companys history and achievements. Let's hope that blip on the radar doesn't turn into a massive, out-of-control thunderhead that brings down the entire fleet.
The mining unions in the Iron Ore areas of W.A. (and the W.A. Goldfields as well, to a certain degree) in the late 1960's and early 1970's, were controlled by militant thugs, who rode over weak management like a bus flattens a childs trike.
These thugs indulged in strike action at will, initiated by any spurious reason, using thug tactics amongst their members, and ensuring that secret ballots on strike action would never be instigated.
The scenario is a common one, and as a ex-mining contractor, I used to watch this scenario in disgust. A union meeting would be held right at shift changeover, at 4:00 PM.
Beer was freely handed out, and a professional union thug would take the soapbox, and whip up the workers with regard to some petty issue.
The issue was always overblown (flies in the mess, inadequate ice-cream varieties available, inadequate food quality, or some other "perceived" grievance), and the shop steward thug would call for a show of hands for a strike.
There were always the "union men for life" scattered amongst the workers, and upon the call for a show of hands, the "union men for life" would shoot their hands sky-high... then turn and glare at those who didn't have their hands up.
This resulted in a slow increase in the number of hands raised, until the union thug on the soapbox declared he had a "majority showing", and it was "everyone out!".
I would speak to moderate-view individuals later, independently, enquiring about what had transpired, and would always get the same answer... "everyone else had their hand up, so I felt obliged to do so, too". Union intimidation at its best.
These thugs ended up controlling the Iron Ore operations at will, and their demands were utterly outrageous. Demands for prime steaks for lunch for employees, descended into outright greed, where large coolers were filled with prime steaks, that fed the workers entire family for a week, cost-free.
The breaking of these outrageous thug-driven unions was needed, and the balance between unions and management restored. We no longer have very many of these style of unions, and they deserve no place in todays society.
On the other hand, this airline grounding exercise of Joyce, Clifford and the Qantas board, in retaliation for some very modest union activism, ranks on a par with Henry Fords actions against the auto-manufacturers unions.
All that's missing is the company thugs beating the crap out of the Qantas union organisers.
The lack of management ability of this board, coupled with an inability... nay, basically a refusal... to negotiate in good faith with unions, is a sign that this management sees the workers as the "enemy", to be manipulated, ambushed, and generally trodden underfoot, until they (the board) have a group that is totally subservient to them. This is not the way management and employees should engage in a properly-functioning company.
As has been mentioned previously, the Qantas of today is the result of 90 years of unfailing effort by employees, guided by competent management (up until the last few years, anyway).
This board ranks as little more than a blip on the radar, in the history of Qantas, taken into context of the companys history and achievements. Let's hope that blip on the radar doesn't turn into a massive, out-of-control thunderhead that brings down the entire fleet.
Let me riddle you this....
Say Qantas gets what it wants. It goes offshore, it recruits pilots and cabin crew from Asia, it has all its maintenance done in Mumbai and its call centre in Shanghai. Costs have now decreased significantly.
Please tell me why I am now booking on Qantas? ... instead of, say, Emirates
Say Qantas gets what it wants. It goes offshore, it recruits pilots and cabin crew from Asia, it has all its maintenance done in Mumbai and its call centre in Shanghai. Costs have now decreased significantly.
Please tell me why I am now booking on Qantas? ... instead of, say, Emirates
