Qf LAME EBA Negotiations Begin
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keep up the good work Steve.
The new points concept sounds quite interesting but I think there's many finer details to be revealed before anyone should form opinions. Especially when it comes to Part 66 integration.
I'd also be interested to know, in such an ageing industry, how many of your knockers have a full head of hair themselves...
The new points concept sounds quite interesting but I think there's many finer details to be revealed before anyone should form opinions. Especially when it comes to Part 66 integration.
I'd also be interested to know, in such an ageing industry, how many of your knockers have a full head of hair themselves...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: australia
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve sounds like a good idear but it also looks like it will cost the company a lot of money[and they wont agree] have we done the figures on it,and where do we go from here....rim
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will cost the company money but it will also save them a fair chunk.
An extra service point per year adds about 1.25% pa. On top of 3% wage rises that makes 4.25% per year which certainly is not excessive. Then you take away the points we would have earned in training payments.
A course every six years at 4 points per course would have given you 5% over each 6 year period or .833% pa. All of a sudden the 4.25%pa reduces to 3.42%. If you take into account the fact that we have 5 and 6 point aircraft and customer training courses that are not included in the average one course in six year calculation, the rise itself sits arouns 3% pa still.
The benefits however are good for us - training will go to those who really want it and the ones who are constantly overlooked will still get paid. They are also good for the company - they can train as much as they like without worrying about additional costs and bring back as many customers as they like without worrying about additional payments.
The claim is so minimal it clears the way for other matters like the aggregate wage they promised us in 97 and elimination of those quotas.
From here - company had the ability to settle with us since before xmas. They keep stuffing us around. PIA will be lodged this week with FWA just to let them know we are serious.
Please be mindful however that our other important claims relate to job security and must be met by the company. No point negotiating a nice wage rise if you don't have a job.
An extra service point per year adds about 1.25% pa. On top of 3% wage rises that makes 4.25% per year which certainly is not excessive. Then you take away the points we would have earned in training payments.
A course every six years at 4 points per course would have given you 5% over each 6 year period or .833% pa. All of a sudden the 4.25%pa reduces to 3.42%. If you take into account the fact that we have 5 and 6 point aircraft and customer training courses that are not included in the average one course in six year calculation, the rise itself sits arouns 3% pa still.
The benefits however are good for us - training will go to those who really want it and the ones who are constantly overlooked will still get paid. They are also good for the company - they can train as much as they like without worrying about additional costs and bring back as many customers as they like without worrying about additional payments.
The claim is so minimal it clears the way for other matters like the aggregate wage they promised us in 97 and elimination of those quotas.
From here - company had the ability to settle with us since before xmas. They keep stuffing us around. PIA will be lodged this week with FWA just to let them know we are serious.
Please be mindful however that our other important claims relate to job security and must be met by the company. No point negotiating a nice wage rise if you don't have a job.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
Posts: 1,116
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
Thanks for update & details fedsec.Sounds like a good system at first glance.
Good luck with the hand.
Good luck with the hand.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve, if the quota's get lifted, would the current requirements to move through the grades also be lifted? ie. To progress through the higher grades you require Training points only. If so, would a mix of Service and Training points allow progression to any grade?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What if you have hit quota but have a dozen service points that you have not used to move up the ranks? Do the previous service points count to move up the grades or, will we start fresh from the new EBA agreement?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Expecting the training restrictions to be lifted.
Do however think it should be a fresh start for all. That way everyone will get the same percentage based rise out of the Agreement. Yes some will lose points but remember, those points are useless anyway atm.
cheers
Do however think it should be a fresh start for all. That way everyone will get the same percentage based rise out of the Agreement. Yes some will lose points but remember, those points are useless anyway atm.
cheers
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True, the service points for those that are capped out may be good for nothing under the current system but I'm about to go up a grade with service points so I can't see myself voting for anything that will cost me that grade!
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Skating away on the thin ice of a new day.
Posts: 1,116
Received 13 Likes
on
8 Posts
JA1, by the time it is finally negotiated, signed , sealed , voted and agreed (or not) I'm pretty sure you'll have your grade. Probably a good way to another point 
You won't be alone and hopefully a transitional process can be worked out.
You won't be alone and hopefully a transitional process can be worked out.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JA-1, I agree. I think that we have earned those Service points and should be used some how, rather than wiped off. Last EBA some LAMEs where in the "chicken before the egg" situation who had service points but got the Technology point first which then capped them out and unable to use their Service points. I understand if you are capped out the Service points mean sh$t, but seems a waste to wipe them clean slab. Maybe 2 Service points = 1 Training Point?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True, the service points for those that are capped out may be good for nothing under the current system but I'm about to go up a grade with service points so I can't see myself voting for anything that will cost me that grade!
I understand if you are capped out the Service points mean sh$t, but seems a waste to wipe them clean slab.
a) another 250 service points under the current system given immediately
or
b) one point per year, no quotas, no restrictions and 18 levels.
Looks like a simple answer to me.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we all need to give and take in regards to what the fed-sec is putting on the table.
Some might loose out in the short term, but we ALL will gain in the long term. We not only help ourselfs financially, but we open new windows of opportunity for Qantas Engineering to gain more third party work and increase the dwindling training that is currently on offer.
I think with some fine tuning, this could really work to everyones benifit.
At the end of the day, we want a company that is making money so we can get paid and the extra training will benifit everyone.
Some might loose out in the short term, but we ALL will gain in the long term. We not only help ourselfs financially, but we open new windows of opportunity for Qantas Engineering to gain more third party work and increase the dwindling training that is currently on offer.
I think with some fine tuning, this could really work to everyones benifit.
At the end of the day, we want a company that is making money so we can get paid and the extra training will benifit everyone.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve i see a potential flaw in this new training points system. There are guys out there at the moment who seem scared of using the licence they have, so i can see these people taking advantage of this by not doing anymore courses.
It doesnt seem fair that one person may be sitting on a 747-300 single rating for example, and just sits on that for the next few years and other guys are doing a course for a new aircraft, taking responsibility for that aircraft and yet they both will end up with the same points.
It doesnt seem fair that one person may be sitting on a 747-300 single rating for example, and just sits on that for the next few years and other guys are doing a course for a new aircraft, taking responsibility for that aircraft and yet they both will end up with the same points.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: australia
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the expanded reply Steve,sounds very good as for qf81,jet a1 and others a new system always leaves a few out dont worry about the points you have stored up you will catch up soon and as stated by Steve they mean jack sh%t in the present system ,lets just hope the company can see the rewards for them in this system....Rim
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't mind if service points for guys that are capped out get wiped. Obviously they are about ass useful as tits on a bull anyway under the current system. But the service points earned by those lower in the pay scale that would go towards the next grade should be carried over into the new system. Also, is there anything in this new system that will go towards closing the pay gap for new LAMEs that are getting up to 30% less than the starting pay in the rest of the industry in this country?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bexley
Posts: 1,792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are lots of finer details to the proposal guys and we pretty much have an answer to all the problems raised by members and management.
Management made mention of this. We haven't just dropped a concept on them, it is more detailed than the brief stuff I have put out there so far. We propose that a course be advertised by Qf like the 380's are. Anyone can apply, anyone can not apply. The 380 selection process imposed by FWA shall be used for all purposes. The selections are made from those who want to do the course. If not enough people apply (unlikely but it may happen) then Qf can tap LAMEs on the shoulder and tell them they must do it. Generally we see no point in having members forced to do courses they don't want. They should go to the willing and able.
Absolutely. No suggestion these points would be lost.
Steve i see a potential flaw in this new training points system. There are guys out there at the moment who seem scared of using the licence they have, so i can see these people taking advantage of this by not doing anymore courses.
I don't mind if service points for guys that are capped out get wiped. Obviously they are about ass useful as tits on a bull anyway under the current system. But the service points earned by those lower in the pay scale that would go towards the next grade should be carried over into the new system.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: australia
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Steve am sure the finer details may answer a few q's but knowing LAME's there are thoes who will say why is he/she getting the same money as me and he/she has only got one lic. remember when we merged and some guys were topped out with only 737 radio,do we want a system like that again......and I still think it will be too costly for QF so it looks like we are going to go into a PIA, if so then lets go......Rim
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pity City
Posts: 113
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With a management that won't engage, bring on PIA. LAMEs and pilots will make a good tag team. A common theme - management are doing anything but!!
Long term aviation professionals vs short term, bonus driven managers - no contest!
Long term aviation professionals vs short term, bonus driven managers - no contest!