New Ticket Team vying to wrest control of AIPA
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Hi Nunc,
I am the "DD" you refer to in your post. This is my first look at and post on PPRUNE - as your post was referred to me by a mate. It will also be my last as I'd rather post under my real name on Qrewroom.
You suggest I have a mouth - I'd call it an opinion, and trying to stick up for the more junior fleets. A position I have held even when on the 744. If you can justify why a S/O on the 744/380 should earn more than an F/O on the 767 (all wide body aircraft on the same contract - so we're comparing apples with apples), then I might listen to you.
Why don't you join in the real discussion on Qrewroom. Much tougher to sit and throw stones from behind a keyboard as an anonymous contributor on PPRUNE.
I am the "DD" you refer to in your post. This is my first look at and post on PPRUNE - as your post was referred to me by a mate. It will also be my last as I'd rather post under my real name on Qrewroom.
You suggest I have a mouth - I'd call it an opinion, and trying to stick up for the more junior fleets. A position I have held even when on the 744. If you can justify why a S/O on the 744/380 should earn more than an F/O on the 767 (all wide body aircraft on the same contract - so we're comparing apples with apples), then I might listen to you.
Why don't you join in the real discussion on Qrewroom. Much tougher to sit and throw stones from behind a keyboard as an anonymous contributor on PPRUNE.
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Dave I've said nothing about the pay disparity you refer to- it is wrong but this stage of an EBA is it not the time to fix it. I have had my say on Qroom, pity you were not as vocal when you were on com but it is easier is'nt it to throw stones outside than achieve within. As to your first post on Pprune, utter bs. See ya round I'm going for a fly.
Nunc est bibendum
Keg has stayed in the dark on the EBA rollover...
I heard about the proposed percentage pay rises the same time as I heard about proposed A380 rates. The percentage pay rises strike me as a good deal. Whether they are enough to over ride my philosophical concerns on other matters will depend on what the deal looks like in totality.As to the timing of me raising things, the trigger for me was the voting down of EBA8 given that in terms of pay rates at least, the day 1 lottery and to a certain extent the 'value' of F/Os was addressed as part of that deal- it was probably one of the better things about EBA8. (As a side note, Dave and I disagree somewhat on that issue but that's another story). The 'rollover' document does nothing to address these issues but does exacerbate both the day 1 lottery as well as diminishing the value of 767 F/Os. Once I knew about those issues that is where I became quite focused on it. However even prior to that my feedback was to NOT engage in an rollover EBA but to get it right this time. All in all, given that I have argued against the principles behind the day 1 lottery and advocated properly recognising the 'work' done by the 767 for about a decade or so- as a search of my posts on Qrewroom will attest to- I'm not sure you can play the 'command' card in that way. In fact, it appears to be quite misleading. Perhaps a quick read through my 1000+ posts on Qrewroom over the last decade may give some idea as to when I actually became involved in these philosophical issues.
A while back someone took an shot on PPRUNE at Chuck Hennesy. I disagreed (publicly on Qrewroom) with Chuck on many issues but to target him directly on a forum such as this where he isn't known to contribute, on the basis of comments he made in another private forum, was poor form and grossly unfair. By all means debate the crux of his points but leave the personalities out- particularly when those personalities aren't even a part of the PPRUNE community.
Whilst Dave has now chosen to say his part, that same philosophy applies here with respect to Dave. He's not a PPRUNE contributor- up until his one and perhaps only post here (you'll be back Dave
)- and he has not made comment on PPRUNE for you to respond to. He's not a public figure in the industry like Dick Smith and nor has he sought to make comment in the wider public forum. For him to be 'named' by his initials behind his back and then knifed by anonymously by being called a 'loudmouth' is just crap. By all means attack his points- which you didn't- and attempt to tear them down to your hearts content but to just call him a loudmouth anonymously on PPRUNE is a low act.For me on the other hand, go your hardest on PPRUNE. If you want to call me a PPRUNE loudmouth then knock yourself out. Heck, you can even call me a Qrewroom loudmouth. It adds nothing to the debate other than to show your lack of ability to discuss the merits of the issue but at least I'm a regular PPRUNE contributor and I actually have a pretty good chance of spotting the comments and responding. As a related point, whilst many people in QF know who Keg is, not many people in the wider PPRUNE community would know my personal details. I'd very much appreciate it therefore if you did not continue to utilise my christian name on this forum. Whilst it's not a secret- and I seem to recall once signing off a post with my full name on PPRUNE when someone else was playing the 'power' card that they knew who I was- I certainly don't want it 'out there' every day of the week particularly given how the media utilise this forum.
I'm certainly not aware of the all the LOA161 issues- and nor do I intend to be- but I won't go into that on here given that I've already raised my points in Qrewroom.
As to whether S/O fleet pay as part of EBA8 is BS or not, well you've read my posts on Qrewroom. I'm not going to bother repeating myself again here. If you want to have a shot, go for it on Qrewroom.
Wingspar, 'well intentioned new crew'. Does the fact that I've been on the 767 for ten of the last 12 years make me 'new'? Does the fact that I've been advocating the same principles for most of that time mean it's time to let it go? The say forget the 767 and look to the future and then you say that the 787 will be doing domestic as well. Given the 787 is about the same size then do you think that solving the issues raised on Qrewroom will actually do something about addressing the future also? Aren't you being just a tad inconsistent here? Perhaps properly recognising the value of 767 crew- particularly the F/Os of which I am not one so nothing in it there for me- ctually is all about the future.
Catch you boys (or girls) later.
(Now, where is my 'Don't feed the trolls' smiley?!?!
)
Keg, Not talking about you specifically but historically most of these type of discussions have been promoted by 'new crew'. Yes I know you have spent some time on the a/c, so have alot of others. I for one agree totally with your arguments but to get through your ideas you have to look at the bigger picture. Have a look back at all the well intentioned 76 people over the years and see what has been actually achieved. Yeah sure 5.30 and all that is great but at the end of the day the 76 is screwed because it is a domestic a/c on the long haul award. Yep the pay disparity will be accentuated with the new rates but it is not a new problem. Enough band aids and examine cause and effect for there you will find the answer!
It's the award and people have been tickering with it and the 76 from day one. What I said is consistent because all these bandaid solutions over the years have not fixed the problem (cause and effect). The award and nothing short of a rewrite will fix it.
Sorry to digress but I have seen this all before and these discussions come about every few years.
What I will say to you personally is I wish you all the best because you do have good intentions. Even with the best intentions it is hard to think clearly with a bruised forehead!
Cheers
It's the award and people have been tickering with it and the 76 from day one. What I said is consistent because all these bandaid solutions over the years have not fixed the problem (cause and effect). The award and nothing short of a rewrite will fix it.
Sorry to digress but I have seen this all before and these discussions come about every few years.
What I will say to you personally is I wish you all the best because you do have good intentions. Even with the best intentions it is hard to think clearly with a bruised forehead!
Cheers
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EBA 8 (mark 1) would have given you the 787 at 744 rates of pay.
EBA 8 (mark 2), with the A380 pay premium, will eventually and undoubtedly give you the 787 at something resembling 767 rates, and all but kill the chance of fleet pay at the 744 rate.
EBA 7 has the 744 and A380 at the same pay rate. EBA 8 (mark 2), with an A380 pay premium, is not a "rollover". A true "rollover" EBA would have kept the 744 and A380 at the same rate, giving possible scope in the future for fleet pay at 744 rates.
Many, if not most, younger QF pilots will spend the majority of their careers flying the 787. Consider QF's projected fleet composition.
Bear in mind the effect this will have on total remuneration over a long career, and the implications this will have on defined benefit superannuation final payouts. How much more would you have earned, for example, spending 25 years of your career on 744 rates, as opposed to the now highly likely probability of spending that time on 767 rates?
EBA 8 (mark 2), with the A380 pay premium, will eventually and undoubtedly give you the 787 at something resembling 767 rates, and all but kill the chance of fleet pay at the 744 rate.
EBA 7 has the 744 and A380 at the same pay rate. EBA 8 (mark 2), with an A380 pay premium, is not a "rollover". A true "rollover" EBA would have kept the 744 and A380 at the same rate, giving possible scope in the future for fleet pay at 744 rates.
Many, if not most, younger QF pilots will spend the majority of their careers flying the 787. Consider QF's projected fleet composition.
Bear in mind the effect this will have on total remuneration over a long career, and the implications this will have on defined benefit superannuation final payouts. How much more would you have earned, for example, spending 25 years of your career on 744 rates, as opposed to the now highly likely probability of spending that time on 767 rates?
Last edited by jaded boiler; 17th Mar 2009 at 03:13.
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"EBA 8 (mark 1) would have given you the 787 at 744 rates of pay"
Bull****.
Under the (thankfully) trashed EBA8, a newly promoted Captain would get to fly the 787 on 767 pay rates.
(OK, after 7 years in rank he would, however the statement as presented is False).
N
Bull****.
Under the (thankfully) trashed EBA8, a newly promoted Captain would get to fly the 787 on 767 pay rates.
(OK, after 7 years in rank he would, however the statement as presented is False).
N
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My only point is that what was advertised was false.
EBA 8 was an utter disaster. Even (the then) CP was of the opinion that it was. Thankfully it was voted down.
Make no mistake ... EBA 8 would have been a step backwards ... and a pay drop ...
N
EBA 8 was an utter disaster. Even (the then) CP was of the opinion that it was. Thankfully it was voted down.
Make no mistake ... EBA 8 would have been a step backwards ... and a pay drop ...
N
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Ok, if the A380 has to have a pay premium to the 744 how about making it just 1%? Give the 767 3-4%, plus fleet pay for S/Os at current 744 rates. Adjust all these figures up by whatever fleet wide percentage pay rise is negotiated.
At least then if the 787 is considered a 767 replacement, a higher benchmark has been set.
At least then if the 787 is considered a 767 replacement, a higher benchmark has been set.
Last edited by jaded boiler; 17th Mar 2009 at 09:48.
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Despite what you may think ... I believe that the current AIPA (and past) ... are there to do good (as far as they are able).
I just get pissed off at "conspiracy theories" and "the A380 guys look after themselves" ... what complete, unintelligent crap.
N
PS ... the A380 is not in my horoscope ....
I just get pissed off at "conspiracy theories" and "the A380 guys look after themselves" ... what complete, unintelligent crap.
N
PS ... the A380 is not in my horoscope ....
Last edited by noip; 17th Mar 2009 at 19:51.
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Jaded,
It takes a lot to upset me .... no rewording for me personally necessary. I'm just annoyed when people assume that because the those who are in office at AIPA are on the top aircraft that they are only concerned with themselves. My experience is that it is so far from the truth ...
My view of the current EBA proposal is that it is a bastard child that has become necessary for both sides. Yes there are some holes that need digging out of, but that is for the next round of negotiations due about 2 minutes after the interim signing.
What is ideal and what must be dealt with are sometimes two separate entities. The standard argument of "the big picture" is mostly abused (mine is a Rembrant, why is the company's from Kindergarten?) however at the moment I'm inclined to go along with Team Bazza to get things sorted at the next gate.
Above all, we just need to remember that history is composed of us blundering from one disaster to the next.
Maybe my lotto number will come up next week ....
N
It takes a lot to upset me .... no rewording for me personally necessary. I'm just annoyed when people assume that because the those who are in office at AIPA are on the top aircraft that they are only concerned with themselves. My experience is that it is so far from the truth ...
My view of the current EBA proposal is that it is a bastard child that has become necessary for both sides. Yes there are some holes that need digging out of, but that is for the next round of negotiations due about 2 minutes after the interim signing.
What is ideal and what must be dealt with are sometimes two separate entities. The standard argument of "the big picture" is mostly abused (mine is a Rembrant, why is the company's from Kindergarten?) however at the moment I'm inclined to go along with Team Bazza to get things sorted at the next gate.
Above all, we just need to remember that history is composed of us blundering from one disaster to the next.
Maybe my lotto number will come up next week ....
N
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As you say Tony the EBA is 2 1/4 years old but in the current environment blind Freedy can see that it should be settled sooner that later. Interesting how you raise this Tony after you got your command not before.