Merged: ASA Staff Shortage
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TAAATS upgrades used to be numbered 5.2 etc. This was supposed to mean the second update of 2005. When these were then running 2 years behind schedule they started renaming them Version 12/13 etc to save embarrasment.
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Version 12 just got rolled back off the Simulator (proving ground) in Brisbane tonight. Version 5.2 put back on. Man on the ground you're probably right.
Saw a comic strip somewhere saying that if everyone is doing 'Worlds Best Practice' doesn't that mean the same as mediocre.
Also, re- the Super Centre, got advice today that the BN and ML centres, for most people , are permanent appointments. Redundancy provisions would be triggered if they wanted to move to one centre. I'll bet they haven't even twigged to that yet. If it went to CB, BN and ML would all be entitled.
Apparently the Panic Button is being belted in meetings today as the implications of the expiration of Facilitative Arrangements are starting to dawn on the bureaucrats. You can't whittle your staff down to the bone and continue to gnaw.
We have tried to get this lot to realise that what they are doing is unsustainable for over 5 years. People are leaving and still they persist in fudging with figures. They just never cottoned on that we care more than they do about a safe sustainable ATC system, that we have been doing CPR on this nearly drowned body, and that we can't keep it up.
It will take years to recover, and they act like it will all be fixed next week
Saw a comic strip somewhere saying that if everyone is doing 'Worlds Best Practice' doesn't that mean the same as mediocre.
Also, re- the Super Centre, got advice today that the BN and ML centres, for most people , are permanent appointments. Redundancy provisions would be triggered if they wanted to move to one centre. I'll bet they haven't even twigged to that yet. If it went to CB, BN and ML would all be entitled.
Apparently the Panic Button is being belted in meetings today as the implications of the expiration of Facilitative Arrangements are starting to dawn on the bureaucrats. You can't whittle your staff down to the bone and continue to gnaw.
We have tried to get this lot to realise that what they are doing is unsustainable for over 5 years. People are leaving and still they persist in fudging with figures. They just never cottoned on that we care more than they do about a safe sustainable ATC system, that we have been doing CPR on this nearly drowned body, and that we can't keep it up.
It will take years to recover, and they act like it will all be fixed next week
Last edited by max1; 24th Sep 2008 at 10:26.
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You bloody recalcitrants...
1. The main aim of the entity (in descending order of priority):
Think of your country, think of the baggy green, and have a foaming mug of harden-the-f*ck-up.
Have faith the ashes series in coming.
PS Oh, and by the way, consider if Tony said to the board, "ditch the profit caveat and be revenue neutral (not a burden on the taxpayer)"(?). Problem solved eh wot?
1. The main aim of the entity (in descending order of priority):
a. Profit. Bucks for the Governments budget surplus that they need badly;
b. Publishing. Glossy magazines with a ratio of one controller photograph per 20 pages so people realise that separating and sequencing was our Raison d'etre yesteryear; finally,
c. Air Navigation. An annoying drain on profit but brings in the revenue due service provision (hopefully eliminated as a source of income through more lucrative ventures in the coming years).
2. Australian Cricket. As a an ex-captain of Australia I envisage that the ammount of spin I detect eminating from the "House Of Spin" on Constitution Ave, they are working on the perfect 'spinner'. I hear it may almost be a cyborg - A combination of O'Reilly, Grimmett, Iverson, Benaud, Gleeson, Mallett and Warne. Imagine bowling sides out for under 150 on day 2 at Adelaide but can drink, smoke, gamble, cuss and fornicate with 2 models at once.Think of your country, think of the baggy green, and have a foaming mug of harden-the-f*ck-up.
Have faith the ashes series in coming.
PS Oh, and by the way, consider if Tony said to the board, "ditch the profit caveat and be revenue neutral (not a burden on the taxpayer)"(?). Problem solved eh wot?
Last edited by Bill Woodfull; 24th Sep 2008 at 14:09.
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yet another wasted opportunity by AsA yesterday at another (and I use the term loosely) "negotiation" meeting.here we are more than 5 months after we were supposed to commence EBA negotiations (AsA only managed to come to the first 5 weeks late) and we still have no offer to consider from AsA - only a wishlist of how AsA would like us to give up principles of rostering, agree to master rosters, substantial reductions in sick leave entitlements, obligatory overtime, etc.
Well, you can sit there and continue to field their demands until you get sick of it and start agreeing to some of them ... to shut them up (standard negotiation ploy)
Or, you can start putting forward your own vision and demands.
Or, you can start putting forward your own vision and demands.
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peuce, the boot is on the ATC foot. In addition to your suggestion, demand and follow through with delays in meeting timelines due to workload, meet with individual managers at odd times instead of the managers as a group, demand rewrites in contracts over minor nuances, negotiate with indiviual managers in separate areas of responsibility, demand different requirements in Brisbane to those in Melbourne just to frustrate and delay negotiations further, bust up managerial union by starting false rumours and innuendoes of what one manager said about another manager, invite the managers to meet on your terms and not theirs. Managers have been using these tactics for years. Turn the tables.
V12/v13
Ah man on the ground....
You beat me to it re V12 being probably 2012.
But are you really sure its a year thing??
I mean who says V13 by 2013???
You would have to be an optimist!
You beat me to it re V12 being probably 2012.
But are you really sure its a year thing??
I mean who says V13 by 2013???
You would have to be an optimist!
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I hope AsA don't see this
"Trainees In The Tower In Airliner "Swerve"
An incident that thankfully ended with some fairly rattled pilots and passengers but no more than a little lost tire rubber begs the question of who is training whom at some of the nation's air traffic control towers. The National Air Traffic Controllers Union says two trainee controllers were in on duty by themselves in the Lehigh International Airport tower when a Mesa Airlines CRJ700 had to swerve (as in the sudden deviation from a straight path) to avoid a just-landed Cessna 172 while taking off from the Allentown, Pa., airport. The widely accepted estimate is the RJ, with 60 passengers aboard, missed the 172 by about 10 feet while decelerating from 120 knots. According to the NTSB, the Cessna was told to take an early taxiway exit but missed and the pilot reported he or she was heading for the next taxiway. The trainees missed that and, thinking the 172 had left the runway, cleared the RJ for takeoff.
The Mesa crew apparently heard the 172 pilot's report that the controllers missed but started the takeoff. They were almost at rotation speed when they spotted the Cessna and swerved to miss it. While no one is so disputing the facts of the incident, NATCA is suggesting a shortage of qualified controllers played a role and it's sure to come up at a meeting of the House Aviation Subcommittee on Thursday to discuss--runway safety. "The FAA is so desperate to staff its towers they are forced to work trainees by themselves without adequate numbers of experienced controllers there to work with them," said NATCA President Patrick Forrey. "This has exposed the inexperience of our new workforce. It's unfair to these trainees and should be unacceptable to the flying public." The Mesa flight (operating for United) was cancelled."
AVwebFlash September 25, 2008
At least they have trainees in the USA...........
Regards to all
Stephen
An incident that thankfully ended with some fairly rattled pilots and passengers but no more than a little lost tire rubber begs the question of who is training whom at some of the nation's air traffic control towers. The National Air Traffic Controllers Union says two trainee controllers were in on duty by themselves in the Lehigh International Airport tower when a Mesa Airlines CRJ700 had to swerve (as in the sudden deviation from a straight path) to avoid a just-landed Cessna 172 while taking off from the Allentown, Pa., airport. The widely accepted estimate is the RJ, with 60 passengers aboard, missed the 172 by about 10 feet while decelerating from 120 knots. According to the NTSB, the Cessna was told to take an early taxiway exit but missed and the pilot reported he or she was heading for the next taxiway. The trainees missed that and, thinking the 172 had left the runway, cleared the RJ for takeoff.
The Mesa crew apparently heard the 172 pilot's report that the controllers missed but started the takeoff. They were almost at rotation speed when they spotted the Cessna and swerved to miss it. While no one is so disputing the facts of the incident, NATCA is suggesting a shortage of qualified controllers played a role and it's sure to come up at a meeting of the House Aviation Subcommittee on Thursday to discuss--runway safety. "The FAA is so desperate to staff its towers they are forced to work trainees by themselves without adequate numbers of experienced controllers there to work with them," said NATCA President Patrick Forrey. "This has exposed the inexperience of our new workforce. It's unfair to these trainees and should be unacceptable to the flying public." The Mesa flight (operating for United) was cancelled."
AVwebFlash September 25, 2008
At least they have trainees in the USA...........
Regards to all
Stephen
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What a silly thing to post!Lets all find stories about ATC from around the world and post them in the PPRuNe Forums > Dunnunda & Godzone > D & G Reporting Points > ASA Solves Staff Shortage thread....
heres my contribution -
PUSHING TIN
TT
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peuce
As cattledog said, the vision document is a very good indication of what is needed to bring Aus ATC's to parity to the average worldwide remuneration for ATC. And AsA has failed to present any offer after 11 meetings to date.
According to the financial officer at Waypoint 2008 (financial report not yet released) AsA has returned something like $27,000,000 in Avcharges to industry because traffic levels were higher than forecast. That seems like a sure indication of a bumper profit to me!
The only way AsA could have made a technical loss is by pouring HUGE AMOUNTS OF DOLLARS into infrastructure (the Tower simulator springs to mind for some reason), or by paying off debt ahead of schedule.
Now why (and how) would AsA, who made $106M in profit the previous financial year, suddenly declare a loss the following year, just prior to the expiry date of an EBA?
As cattledog said, the vision document is a very good indication of what is needed to bring Aus ATC's to parity to the average worldwide remuneration for ATC. And AsA has failed to present any offer after 11 meetings to date.
direct no speedNice rumour doing the rounds that they made a technical loss for the year.
If so, I wonder who pays for that? Yesterday 07:47
If so, I wonder who pays for that? Yesterday 07:47
The only way AsA could have made a technical loss is by pouring HUGE AMOUNTS OF DOLLARS into infrastructure (the Tower simulator springs to mind for some reason), or by paying off debt ahead of schedule.
Now why (and how) would AsA, who made $106M in profit the previous financial year, suddenly declare a loss the following year, just prior to the expiry date of an EBA?
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Kavokar,
I must not be in the know then - unlike yourself.
I know of no 'live' ATC being dont by trainees on their own - if you are referring to other training activity I fail to see how that is a precedent...
I think you find that pilots use and operate simulators or procedural mock-ups without supervision...
TT
I must not be in the know then - unlike yourself.
I know of no 'live' ATC being dont by trainees on their own - if you are referring to other training activity I fail to see how that is a precedent...
I think you find that pilots use and operate simulators or procedural mock-ups without supervision...
TT
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Hi TT,
The reason that I posted that article is that it refered to two situations that may be of some interest to Australian ATCs. The first being that the USA has a severe ATC shortage, as has Australia. Maybe some Aussie ATCs could look for alternative work there although I believe their pay on condidtions are not much better than ours.
The second is in reference to trainees being used unsupervised in "live" positions.
I found some irony in the fact that the USA has trainees, something that we do not seem to have. And as the title of my message insinuated, it would be better if AsA did not see the article because, if and when we do get trainees in the field, it may just enter management's thick skulls to use them (to alleviate staff shorages) as reported in the article.
I hope that has cleared a few things up for you.
BTW, I have seen trainees left unsupervised, albeit for short periods of time.
Regards
Stephen
The reason that I posted that article is that it refered to two situations that may be of some interest to Australian ATCs. The first being that the USA has a severe ATC shortage, as has Australia. Maybe some Aussie ATCs could look for alternative work there although I believe their pay on condidtions are not much better than ours.
The second is in reference to trainees being used unsupervised in "live" positions.
I found some irony in the fact that the USA has trainees, something that we do not seem to have. And as the title of my message insinuated, it would be better if AsA did not see the article because, if and when we do get trainees in the field, it may just enter management's thick skulls to use them (to alleviate staff shorages) as reported in the article.
I hope that has cleared a few things up for you.
BTW, I have seen trainees left unsupervised, albeit for short periods of time.
Regards
Stephen
SARMC Are you really saying this
and
Firstly, I trust you submitted an ESIR for unsupervised trainees. Secondly, AsA does have trainees, just not enough of them. Stop trying to be sensationalist and post stuff a bit closer to the truth - it will help the ATC cause more in the long run.
I have seen trainees left unsupervised
the USA has trainees, something that we do not seem to have
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What's in a name
IMHO, In the US trainees are that until they become the equivalent of FPC; so full rated etc, when doing operational duty solo, but not FPC = Trainee.
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Hi Topdrop,
The matter of the unsupervised trainees was reported to the relevent people at the time and the necessary disciplinary action was taken at that time. This was in the days before ESIRs...remember CA225s?
Yes, we do have some trainees in the field, my mistake, my reference should have been narrowed to indicate ATC trainees being actively trained within the "college". However the yanks appear to have many more in the field and have many more in the pipeline.
The initial post, and reply to TT, were made "tongue in cheek" as a broad comparison between the two countries.
I spent almost 35 years as an ATC (and Civil Air member) which included some pretty intense industrial action including strikes. So I am not un-sympathetic to the Civil Air cause.
I was able to retire from ATC some 4 years ago and have not had to experience some of the most bloody minded management actions I have ever seen and that current ATCs are enduring.
My best wishes go with you, don't give in and, if you are old enough to remember, don't be fooled by the "secret initiative" (R Garlic circa 1978)
Regards
Stephen
The matter of the unsupervised trainees was reported to the relevent people at the time and the necessary disciplinary action was taken at that time. This was in the days before ESIRs...remember CA225s?
Yes, we do have some trainees in the field, my mistake, my reference should have been narrowed to indicate ATC trainees being actively trained within the "college". However the yanks appear to have many more in the field and have many more in the pipeline.
The initial post, and reply to TT, were made "tongue in cheek" as a broad comparison between the two countries.
I spent almost 35 years as an ATC (and Civil Air member) which included some pretty intense industrial action including strikes. So I am not un-sympathetic to the Civil Air cause.
I was able to retire from ATC some 4 years ago and have not had to experience some of the most bloody minded management actions I have ever seen and that current ATCs are enduring.
My best wishes go with you, don't give in and, if you are old enough to remember, don't be fooled by the "secret initiative" (R Garlic circa 1978)
Regards
Stephen
Last edited by SARMC; 2nd Oct 2008 at 11:57. Reason: Date corrected