Nats atcos to spain?
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could you give me a rough idea of the pre-December 2010 basic Aena salary for a non-radar-rated Tower ATCO, in an airport of say less than 100,000 movements annually, before any overtime was added on?
Therefore I'll provide you with the tools to check what the current salary would be. That basic salary hasn't changed much... the catch was precisely the overtime which allowed that number to double or even triple.
This is the arbiter's resolution and current framework for our work relation with Aena. In page 66 you can see how the different locations are categorised for the purpose of advancing professional levels.
Page 101 shows how the salary is calculated and page 140 shows the tables that formula uses.
Answering your question then, I'd say 3.000 Euros / month (after taxes).
Also, are there not some quiet Spanish airports with less than 1000 movements per month, that could realisitically be AFISO-only operated, and be paid accordingly?
, this is precisely the issue.This is the link to the official statistics from Aena. As you can see in 2011 there were 16 airports with less than 100.000 passengers (also 16 with less than 10.000 movements... although not the same airports).
If this were a business decission, you would have to make that choice and remove control service from several airports. This was done for example at Burgos, El Hierro and La Gomera. However since this is a political issue it is a hard job to explain to these provinces why they are being downgraded... not to mention to ask the question why there was an airport in the first place.
There are certainly some airports which are a social requirement (I'd say each of the Canary or Balearic Islands needs one) but others is just political vote-gathering. The most recent example would be the one at Castellón, which hasn't opened yet and so far is only a huge waste of money with Valencia at about 1 hour drive.
When the control service at El Hierro was removed, it created a great deal of social discontent so that finally the government decided to "upgrade" the afisos there and now they provide control service. Therefore it is understandable from a political point of view that they don't want to remove control service from other airports but instead want to provide control while paying the same as for fis...
Finally, on the subject of Saerco, does anyone know if their ATCOs, who have gone to complete a course in Prague, are student cadets or previously-rated controllers?
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Thanks again for all the info Daermon, much appreciated!* I take it then, from your overall attitude, that you would be more than willing to escape abroad if the opportunity arose?
*
Just wondering also, if FerroNATS fail to get enough transferring ATCOs from Aena and fail to poach enough ATCOs from NATS or wherever, could a similar overtime situation return?* (thus boosting overall salaries - and hours worked - of those remaining controllers brave enough to stick it out).* Or would those student cadets (unlucky enough not able to escape and get work elsewhere abroad) be trained in to fill the shortfall, regardless of their ability/performance?
*
Regarding the quieter airports, (although I know this is fast-forwarding 5-10 years from now), I reckon any which has less than 50,000 annual movements (of which there are currently a lot in Spain) would be vulnerable to Remote Virtual Tower (RVT) technology, and the resultant significant number of job losses that it involves... albeit bringing a huge financial saving to whatever contractor is then in charge.* Anyway, thats another day's topic!
*
Just wondering also, if FerroNATS fail to get enough transferring ATCOs from Aena and fail to poach enough ATCOs from NATS or wherever, could a similar overtime situation return?* (thus boosting overall salaries - and hours worked - of those remaining controllers brave enough to stick it out).* Or would those student cadets (unlucky enough not able to escape and get work elsewhere abroad) be trained in to fill the shortfall, regardless of their ability/performance?
*
Regarding the quieter airports, (although I know this is fast-forwarding 5-10 years from now), I reckon any which has less than 50,000 annual movements (of which there are currently a lot in Spain) would be vulnerable to Remote Virtual Tower (RVT) technology, and the resultant significant number of job losses that it involves... albeit bringing a huge financial saving to whatever contractor is then in charge.* Anyway, thats another day's topic!
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Thanks again for all the info Daermon, much appreciated!* I take it then, from your overall attitude, that you would be more than willing to escape abroad if the opportunity arose?
Actually, there are dozens Spanish ATCO´s willing to scape if the opportunity arises, count me for that too!
Many of us are actively searching for a job abroad (sending CV´s, emails, letters of interest ...), and believe me, the salary is not a crucial factor: in my case, my family is what matters, and I think things can only get worse in Spain (yesterday another 112.000 more unemployed were accounted for, now over 5.200.000).
Just wondering also, if FerroNATS fail to get enough transferring ATCOs from Aena and fail to poach enough ATCOs from NATS or wherever, could a similar overtime situation return?* (thus boosting overall salaries - and hours worked - of those remaining controllers brave enough to stick it out).* Or would those student cadets (unlucky enough not able to escape and get work elsewhere abroad) be trained in to fill the shortfall, regardless of their ability/performance?
As someone said before, wanna trade places ...?
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the infamous former minister Mr. Blanco assured that one of his goals was to have hundreds of unemployed ATCO´s waiting in line to get a job.
Blanco se jacta de que formará a 3.000 nuevos controladores "para tenerlos en el paro" - elConfidencial.com
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As you can see, there are many of us who would change workplaces without a second thought...
As pointed by Lssar, the current work situation in Spain is very dire. Leaving atc work for any other occupation is very difficult... and yet I know several cases where some colleagues have done it, either to work as a pilot, as engineers or even informatic consultant.
The other option would be to move to another country to work as atc. I thought of Canada but they are no longer accepting trained foreingers. Within Europe almost any change would involve a loss of money even with similar terms due to different cost of life. Nevertheless I would accept that even within reasonable parameters.
My problem is not really my current salary or working hours (which I believe are good given my current salary/workload ratio... but I do not work at an ACC or LEMD/LEBL, where the huge burnouts are) but rather the other stuff not currently mentioned.
Aena can do with me whatever they want at any time and with perfect legal cover. I will not say I'm a modern-era slave, I am fully aware that the mayority in spain (not to mention other countries) would kill for my job. Nevertheless I do exist as a property of the state who can do with me as it pleases... my liberty remains only to go away... and even that only when I'm not needed.
Given the current legal framework, If I did walk away if my tower was about to be privatized I could be forced to ensure training for replacements, just as those over 57 were forced to do so in 2010, when they were removed from control positions by law and some left the company to work somewhere else.
Another thing that has nothing to do with money but is also one that would make me gladly leave this country is my current branding as a criminal. When meeting new people and asked about my job I always say "technician at the airport" or when pressed some vague terms including "air navigation". Saying that I'm air traffic controller will put me automatically on the bad side of that person who has heard for the last two years that I'm an egoist, robbing poor people by making air navigation costs double so that I can reap a fat salary for working 10 hours a month.
When my children are old enough to go to school I will have to teach them likewise or they will be constant targets for bullying.
I have written to Nats and to Ireland, got in both cases polite refusals... I've heard that DFS does not require german for upper airspace so will probably try there now that Canada is also off-limits. I might consider even Dubai or thereabouts although my wife won't like it at all... and I'm not currently so desperate as one colleague who went to work to Irak.
Just curious, I heard there was a no-poaching agreement within the mayor ANSP in Europe so that they would not take controllers from one another... anybody heard anything about it?
As pointed by Lssar, the current work situation in Spain is very dire. Leaving atc work for any other occupation is very difficult... and yet I know several cases where some colleagues have done it, either to work as a pilot, as engineers or even informatic consultant.
The other option would be to move to another country to work as atc. I thought of Canada but they are no longer accepting trained foreingers. Within Europe almost any change would involve a loss of money even with similar terms due to different cost of life. Nevertheless I would accept that even within reasonable parameters.
My problem is not really my current salary or working hours (which I believe are good given my current salary/workload ratio... but I do not work at an ACC or LEMD/LEBL, where the huge burnouts are) but rather the other stuff not currently mentioned.
Aena can do with me whatever they want at any time and with perfect legal cover. I will not say I'm a modern-era slave, I am fully aware that the mayority in spain (not to mention other countries) would kill for my job. Nevertheless I do exist as a property of the state who can do with me as it pleases... my liberty remains only to go away... and even that only when I'm not needed.
Given the current legal framework, If I did walk away if my tower was about to be privatized I could be forced to ensure training for replacements, just as those over 57 were forced to do so in 2010, when they were removed from control positions by law and some left the company to work somewhere else.
Another thing that has nothing to do with money but is also one that would make me gladly leave this country is my current branding as a criminal. When meeting new people and asked about my job I always say "technician at the airport" or when pressed some vague terms including "air navigation". Saying that I'm air traffic controller will put me automatically on the bad side of that person who has heard for the last two years that I'm an egoist, robbing poor people by making air navigation costs double so that I can reap a fat salary for working 10 hours a month.
When my children are old enough to go to school I will have to teach them likewise or they will be constant targets for bullying.
I have written to Nats and to Ireland, got in both cases polite refusals... I've heard that DFS does not require german for upper airspace so will probably try there now that Canada is also off-limits. I might consider even Dubai or thereabouts although my wife won't like it at all... and I'm not currently so desperate as one colleague who went to work to Irak.
Just curious, I heard there was a no-poaching agreement within the mayor ANSP in Europe so that they would not take controllers from one another... anybody heard anything about it?
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Daermon ATC
I'm no employment lawyer, but my understanding of non-solicitation clauses is that they are there to prevent direct approaches or "poaching".
If you are merely responding to a job advert that company B posted in the public domain for all to see, then company A will likely have little case against you or company B.
Just curious, I heard there was a no-poaching agreement within the mayor ANSP in Europe so that they would not take controllers from one another... anybody heard anything about it?
If you are merely responding to a job advert that company B posted in the public domain for all to see, then company A will likely have little case against you or company B.
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Thanks again for all the info guys!
@ Lssar: Silly me, I should have remembered the 80 hour cap on overtime from last year. Equating that to (por exemplo) 10 eight-hour shifts per year... yes, its a dramatic reduction from those crazy times when some of you were working (from what I recall reading) up to 28 days per month... but 80 hours wouldn't be too far from what some ATCOs only do in other countries. At least now, I guess you should have a lot more quality time off?
@ Daermon: Surely nobody believes you only work 10 hours a month?? I recall back in 2010, that it was a clear struggle to expose through the so called "media" just how dangerous your workplace - and consequently Spanish airspace - had become, due to you guys being ridiculously overworked and understaffed etc. Has still none of this leaked through to the public? Are the Spanish media so effective in hiding the truth (especially if/when rewarded nicely by a certain Ministerio de Fomento) or is it a case that the public - some of them at least - did find out the truth but didn't want to know about it, as the country is en crisis and literally on its knees, many of them have no hope of a job, and right now that your current salary, in their eyes, is actually a damn good salary in Spain, for which you should be very grateful..??
Yes, your salaries may have been slashed by more than 50%... from the crazy overtime that you got before, when you guys were, lets face it, the best paid on the planet, to what may well be very soon one of the lesser paid in Europe. But thats looking at it on the surface, at the figures alone. You mentioned the all-important thing... cost of living, relative to what you earn. Are there not many places in Spain where you can rent a furnished 2 or 3 bed apartment for €500 a month, where you can have a 3 course meal for €15 or less, where a quality rioja costs less than €5? Just examples, mind you.
But I think you've mentioned that already, that its less the salary thats at stake here, and more the threatening bully-boy attitude of Aena and the government. The risk of licence loss, personal fines and lack of severance pay are a much bigger stick to worry about. I would have no problem tolerating some short term austerity (which seems inevitable for all of us), if it meant that my job was secure and not under threat from a Blanco-type dragon breathing down my neck!
As for working abroad, I would totally agree with mixture. I know a lot of ATCOs recently joined - and more on the way to - Abu Dhabi ACC, for those of you Area-rated. They are actively recruiting, tax-free salary starts at roughly €10k a month, and the life in Dubai (where they commute from) is a hell of a lot more westernised than a lot of people realise.. so your wife might just like it!
@ Lssar: Silly me, I should have remembered the 80 hour cap on overtime from last year. Equating that to (por exemplo) 10 eight-hour shifts per year... yes, its a dramatic reduction from those crazy times when some of you were working (from what I recall reading) up to 28 days per month... but 80 hours wouldn't be too far from what some ATCOs only do in other countries. At least now, I guess you should have a lot more quality time off?
@ Daermon: Surely nobody believes you only work 10 hours a month?? I recall back in 2010, that it was a clear struggle to expose through the so called "media" just how dangerous your workplace - and consequently Spanish airspace - had become, due to you guys being ridiculously overworked and understaffed etc. Has still none of this leaked through to the public? Are the Spanish media so effective in hiding the truth (especially if/when rewarded nicely by a certain Ministerio de Fomento) or is it a case that the public - some of them at least - did find out the truth but didn't want to know about it, as the country is en crisis and literally on its knees, many of them have no hope of a job, and right now that your current salary, in their eyes, is actually a damn good salary in Spain, for which you should be very grateful..??
Yes, your salaries may have been slashed by more than 50%... from the crazy overtime that you got before, when you guys were, lets face it, the best paid on the planet, to what may well be very soon one of the lesser paid in Europe. But thats looking at it on the surface, at the figures alone. You mentioned the all-important thing... cost of living, relative to what you earn. Are there not many places in Spain where you can rent a furnished 2 or 3 bed apartment for €500 a month, where you can have a 3 course meal for €15 or less, where a quality rioja costs less than €5? Just examples, mind you.
But I think you've mentioned that already, that its less the salary thats at stake here, and more the threatening bully-boy attitude of Aena and the government. The risk of licence loss, personal fines and lack of severance pay are a much bigger stick to worry about. I would have no problem tolerating some short term austerity (which seems inevitable for all of us), if it meant that my job was secure and not under threat from a Blanco-type dragon breathing down my neck!
As for working abroad, I would totally agree with mixture. I know a lot of ATCOs recently joined - and more on the way to - Abu Dhabi ACC, for those of you Area-rated. They are actively recruiting, tax-free salary starts at roughly €10k a month, and the life in Dubai (where they commute from) is a hell of a lot more westernised than a lot of people realise.. so your wife might just like it!
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ciao
hello D,
nice to meet you. I've just red some information about ATCO situation in Spain.
I've noticed that you are very informed about the condition of Spanish controllers.
I am an italian military radar approach ATCO and I am looking for a new work experience in Europe.Last December I sent my CV to Ferronats in Spain,and on February the 28th I went to Madrid for a face to face interview.Anywere,I went there on holiday with my family,so I decided to do the inteview in that occasion.
I did the interview with NATS personnel and I found it interesting.At the and ,they offered me an annual income of about 55/60 euro(gross salary).
They also offered me a permanent contract.
Obviously,I made my proposal against to accept with an higher income of about 70,000 euro.......and with a possibility to work in a bigger airport well connected with Italy.....In that occasion I asked also the possibility to keep all my rating update: such as radar.
from a quick read of the forums I discovered that the situation of controllers in spain is not good.Do you have further news on what's going on over there....thanks a lot .
nice to meet you. I've just red some information about ATCO situation in Spain.
I've noticed that you are very informed about the condition of Spanish controllers.
I am an italian military radar approach ATCO and I am looking for a new work experience in Europe.Last December I sent my CV to Ferronats in Spain,and on February the 28th I went to Madrid for a face to face interview.Anywere,I went there on holiday with my family,so I decided to do the inteview in that occasion.
I did the interview with NATS personnel and I found it interesting.At the and ,they offered me an annual income of about 55/60 euro(gross salary).
They also offered me a permanent contract.
Obviously,I made my proposal against to accept with an higher income of about 70,000 euro.......and with a possibility to work in a bigger airport well connected with Italy.....In that occasion I asked also the possibility to keep all my rating update: such as radar.
from a quick read of the forums I discovered that the situation of controllers in spain is not good.Do you have further news on what's going on over there....thanks a lot .
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@ Suolarium:
I am a spanish ATC but I wouldn't consider myself too informed. Nevertheless I'll try to share what I've got.
Ferronats got 10 of the 13 towers offered: Alicante, Valencia, Ibiza, Sabadell, Sevilla, Jerez, Melilla, Cuatro Vientos, Vigo and La Coruña.
Sabadell and Cuatro Vientos are only for VFR flights and I believe Melilla has only connections to mainland Spain. I'm not sure if there are any flights to Italy but probably your best choices would be Alicante, Valencia or Sevilla.
Neither of these airports has any radar rating. This was intentional so that they could be staffed with freshly minted atco-students from a basic course of a few weeks for 30.000 €/year.
Your salary is in line with a basic one at a small twr with Aena (you'll have about 35% tax rate with that salary) so I'll take it that it is an upgrade from your current one considering that the military does not usually pay too well, at least in Spain. You know Ferronats only has 5 years + option to another one? Do you have plans in case you have to return to italy?
I'm not sure if you are familiar with the current legal framework for atcos in Spain? This is really the important issue since you would be subject to all of them... except the arbitration between Usca (spanish atc labor union) and Aena which in some aspects softened some of the harsher edges... and there are a quite a few.
I'd have a look at this thread as well as another one: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/479...g-changed.html
There are links to several of these laws and regulations so you can get an idea of what you are getting into
Mind you, I'm not trying to convince you not to apply. I'm sure Ferronats will eventually find someone, even if they have to go to Australia (nothing wrong with them, I was just referring to the distance) but I wouldn't advise my friends to take this job so I'll try to let other people know the situation so that they can decide for themselves.
Please feel free to come back with any questions.
I am a spanish ATC but I wouldn't consider myself too informed. Nevertheless I'll try to share what I've got.
Ferronats got 10 of the 13 towers offered: Alicante, Valencia, Ibiza, Sabadell, Sevilla, Jerez, Melilla, Cuatro Vientos, Vigo and La Coruña.
Sabadell and Cuatro Vientos are only for VFR flights and I believe Melilla has only connections to mainland Spain. I'm not sure if there are any flights to Italy but probably your best choices would be Alicante, Valencia or Sevilla.
Neither of these airports has any radar rating. This was intentional so that they could be staffed with freshly minted atco-students from a basic course of a few weeks for 30.000 €/year.
Your salary is in line with a basic one at a small twr with Aena (you'll have about 35% tax rate with that salary) so I'll take it that it is an upgrade from your current one considering that the military does not usually pay too well, at least in Spain. You know Ferronats only has 5 years + option to another one? Do you have plans in case you have to return to italy?
I'm not sure if you are familiar with the current legal framework for atcos in Spain? This is really the important issue since you would be subject to all of them... except the arbitration between Usca (spanish atc labor union) and Aena which in some aspects softened some of the harsher edges... and there are a quite a few.
I'd have a look at this thread as well as another one: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/479...g-changed.html
There are links to several of these laws and regulations so you can get an idea of what you are getting into
Mind you, I'm not trying to convince you not to apply. I'm sure Ferronats will eventually find someone, even if they have to go to Australia (nothing wrong with them, I was just referring to the distance) but I wouldn't advise my friends to take this job so I'll try to let other people know the situation so that they can decide for themselves.
Please feel free to come back with any questions.
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Let me try to sum up the facts:
- Salary.This privatization process includes 13 twrs (10 for Ferronats and 3 for Saerco). Although the cost for each tower or even each company is unknown, AENA will pay about €16 million a year for the whole bunch. Considering management costs about 35%-40% and a margin for benefits of, at least, another 10% we have roughly 8 million left for paying salaries. Divide that between the staff needed (at least 150 controllers) and you get less than 55.000€ gross annual income per atc. So I believe there is little margin for bargaining. At this point I shall also have to remind you that your income tax as a worker and resident in Spain will be not less than 35%.
- Permanent contract. There is no such conception in Spanish Labor Law anymore. Since last february’s legal reform, any company may reduce any signed T&Cs or even layoff workers with only claiming any significant reduction in their benefits forecast. BTW, the assignment of this twrs is for 5 years plus a possible extension of one more year. After that no one can guarantee these companies will continue providing any navigation service in Spain.
- Radar rating. Forget about working with it. None of those twrs will provide app service. The only thing that AENA has consistently made clear during the last 2 years is that they reserve the provision of area and approach control for the state company. This is due to severe legal, instruction and staff limitations. There’s also little to no chance for you to eventually sign for AENA, since all this privatization process is precisely seeking to move all current Spanish controllers to ACCs, thus making unnecessary further recruitments of radar rated atcs in the next 5 years or more.
- Language. Hope you have a good level of Spanish. Although you may use English in frequency regularly, many VFR pilots won’t (and some of the airports move more VFR than IFR traffics). And of course all training with the local staff will be held in Spanish. But that’s not even the most important point: imagine all the vital conversations you’ll need to hold with many workers of the airport (fire brigade, marshals, flight plan office staff, engineers…). They will be working for another company and none of them are expected to speak English, but you must understand them perfectly or your job will be harsh.
- Transition process. Your instructors for the local rating should be the outgoing atc staff. What you may be missing is that they are not willing to. This process means they are going to leave their workplace, many of them will be forced to move out really far away with their families and so on. Also it must be noted that not only the new ANSP have shown their intention not to comply with the only valuable option the Labor Law gives to the current staff, that is, the complete subrogation with the new company (maintaining their T&Cs), they have offered even less salary to the locals than to foreign applicants. If that wasn’tenough, the government is enforcing all current controllers in these twrs to obtain the OJTI rating and threats with huge fines to anyone not cooperating with the training of the new workers (obtaining the OJTI rating and working as an instructor is, and should always be, voluntary across all Europe). Some call this process a perfect example of dumping, I personally think the term piracy fits better here. Thus you may imagine what kind of environment you will find in these twrs. The locals are really pissed off and I guess every person participating in this mischief will be received with great disdain, if not open hostility.
- Other labor considerations. You will be working up to 1670 hours annually plus 80 additional extra time (voluntarily?, who knows…), on shifts devised by the company alone (and they have scarce legal limitations on this matter), only 30 days off (again, whenever the company decides), no social benefits, no union…
- And last but not least. I strongly recommend not to sign any contract as atc in Spain before reading and fully understanding the “Ley de Seguridad Aérea” (AirSafety Law). Wiping out any trace of the “just culture” it allows fines from 90.000€ to €225.000 to atcs for simply any unjustified action they may consider affects the traffic flow or labor discipline.
So far as I can recall. Feel free to post any further questions or comments. Also, I would appreciate if any of you could share any new information about talks with Ferronats or about any colleague joining them.
Ciao.
- Salary.This privatization process includes 13 twrs (10 for Ferronats and 3 for Saerco). Although the cost for each tower or even each company is unknown, AENA will pay about €16 million a year for the whole bunch. Considering management costs about 35%-40% and a margin for benefits of, at least, another 10% we have roughly 8 million left for paying salaries. Divide that between the staff needed (at least 150 controllers) and you get less than 55.000€ gross annual income per atc. So I believe there is little margin for bargaining. At this point I shall also have to remind you that your income tax as a worker and resident in Spain will be not less than 35%.
- Permanent contract. There is no such conception in Spanish Labor Law anymore. Since last february’s legal reform, any company may reduce any signed T&Cs or even layoff workers with only claiming any significant reduction in their benefits forecast. BTW, the assignment of this twrs is for 5 years plus a possible extension of one more year. After that no one can guarantee these companies will continue providing any navigation service in Spain.
- Radar rating. Forget about working with it. None of those twrs will provide app service. The only thing that AENA has consistently made clear during the last 2 years is that they reserve the provision of area and approach control for the state company. This is due to severe legal, instruction and staff limitations. There’s also little to no chance for you to eventually sign for AENA, since all this privatization process is precisely seeking to move all current Spanish controllers to ACCs, thus making unnecessary further recruitments of radar rated atcs in the next 5 years or more.
- Language. Hope you have a good level of Spanish. Although you may use English in frequency regularly, many VFR pilots won’t (and some of the airports move more VFR than IFR traffics). And of course all training with the local staff will be held in Spanish. But that’s not even the most important point: imagine all the vital conversations you’ll need to hold with many workers of the airport (fire brigade, marshals, flight plan office staff, engineers…). They will be working for another company and none of them are expected to speak English, but you must understand them perfectly or your job will be harsh.
- Transition process. Your instructors for the local rating should be the outgoing atc staff. What you may be missing is that they are not willing to. This process means they are going to leave their workplace, many of them will be forced to move out really far away with their families and so on. Also it must be noted that not only the new ANSP have shown their intention not to comply with the only valuable option the Labor Law gives to the current staff, that is, the complete subrogation with the new company (maintaining their T&Cs), they have offered even less salary to the locals than to foreign applicants. If that wasn’tenough, the government is enforcing all current controllers in these twrs to obtain the OJTI rating and threats with huge fines to anyone not cooperating with the training of the new workers (obtaining the OJTI rating and working as an instructor is, and should always be, voluntary across all Europe). Some call this process a perfect example of dumping, I personally think the term piracy fits better here. Thus you may imagine what kind of environment you will find in these twrs. The locals are really pissed off and I guess every person participating in this mischief will be received with great disdain, if not open hostility.
- Other labor considerations. You will be working up to 1670 hours annually plus 80 additional extra time (voluntarily?, who knows…), on shifts devised by the company alone (and they have scarce legal limitations on this matter), only 30 days off (again, whenever the company decides), no social benefits, no union…
- And last but not least. I strongly recommend not to sign any contract as atc in Spain before reading and fully understanding the “Ley de Seguridad Aérea” (AirSafety Law). Wiping out any trace of the “just culture” it allows fines from 90.000€ to €225.000 to atcs for simply any unjustified action they may consider affects the traffic flow or labor discipline.
So far as I can recall. Feel free to post any further questions or comments. Also, I would appreciate if any of you could share any new information about talks with Ferronats or about any colleague joining them.
Ciao.
Last edited by pamplinas; 18th Apr 2012 at 17:10.
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Hi Daermon, are you by any chance working at one of these towers-to-be-privatised? Obviously I'm not asking you to specify where, but it would appear that you are somewhat biased and (understandably or otherwise) in fact trying to convince outsiders not to apply. That said, your insight here is hugely welcome and much appreciated.
The salary figures you mention don't appear all that bad for some of the quieter airports such as Vigo and A Coruna, where the number of daily movements would appear to be no more than 30 or 40. However I'm not so sure those salaries would appeal in the likes of Alicante or Valencia, with many times more traffic there. But then again, the cost of living in many parts of Spain is quite cheap compared to elsewhere in Europe or elsewhere.
If FerroNATS fail to win the contract again in 5/6 years time, I would assume any outsider will have the option of remaining an employee of NATS at least and working at any other of their ventures around the world (not necessarily in the UK), or of remaining at the privatised Spanish tower and working with the new contractor (and whatever conditions they enforce)... which is a very similar choice to what certain Aena employees are facing now.
The salary figures you mention don't appear all that bad for some of the quieter airports such as Vigo and A Coruna, where the number of daily movements would appear to be no more than 30 or 40. However I'm not so sure those salaries would appeal in the likes of Alicante or Valencia, with many times more traffic there. But then again, the cost of living in many parts of Spain is quite cheap compared to elsewhere in Europe or elsewhere.
If FerroNATS fail to win the contract again in 5/6 years time, I would assume any outsider will have the option of remaining an employee of NATS at least and working at any other of their ventures around the world (not necessarily in the UK), or of remaining at the privatised Spanish tower and working with the new contractor (and whatever conditions they enforce)... which is a very similar choice to what certain Aena employees are facing now.
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Well, well, well... whatever about Daermon being light to moderately biased and posting somewhat objectively, snr. pamplinas here is clearly "full-on Mr. Intimidator don't-touch-my-tower!" biased with his so-called facts..
There is no such thing as a permanent contract in Spain?? What has Rajoy's new government just done recently? Are they not clearly in favour of more permanent (instead of temporary) contracts, but without any redundancy/severance pay should an employee be dismissed, as in many other countries.Said permanent contracts are, from the outset, permanent.. as long as you don't screw up. Fact!
Regarding holidays, from what I've heard... FerroNATS are offering 30 holidays, not including your normal off/rest days in a 6-on/3-off type cycle and not including 12 bank/national holidays. Fact!
Regarding the transition... how can outgoing Aena controllers refuse to OJT any incoming FerroNATS staff, or show any form of resistance, disdain or hostility when you yourself quoted punishment such as "fines from 90.000€ to €225.000 to atcs for just any unjustified action they may consider affects the traffic flow or labor discipline", or as Daermon quoted here before, personal fines of between $250,000 and $4.5m (ridiculous and heavy-handed as that may seem!) and immediate loss of ATC licence? Do you honestly think pamplinas that your hostility will be tolerated? There are more bullying and anti-harrassment policies in force nowadays than any of us can shake a stick at... lawyers and solicitors will be circling like vultures outside these towers. The fact, pamplinas, is that your intimidation and 'hostility' will not be tolerated... the sooner you and your colleagues realise that, the better! Fact!!
Un saludo
There is no such thing as a permanent contract in Spain?? What has Rajoy's new government just done recently? Are they not clearly in favour of more permanent (instead of temporary) contracts, but without any redundancy/severance pay should an employee be dismissed, as in many other countries.Said permanent contracts are, from the outset, permanent.. as long as you don't screw up. Fact!
Regarding holidays, from what I've heard... FerroNATS are offering 30 holidays, not including your normal off/rest days in a 6-on/3-off type cycle and not including 12 bank/national holidays. Fact!
Regarding the transition... how can outgoing Aena controllers refuse to OJT any incoming FerroNATS staff, or show any form of resistance, disdain or hostility when you yourself quoted punishment such as "fines from 90.000€ to €225.000 to atcs for just any unjustified action they may consider affects the traffic flow or labor discipline", or as Daermon quoted here before, personal fines of between $250,000 and $4.5m (ridiculous and heavy-handed as that may seem!) and immediate loss of ATC licence? Do you honestly think pamplinas that your hostility will be tolerated? There are more bullying and anti-harrassment policies in force nowadays than any of us can shake a stick at... lawyers and solicitors will be circling like vultures outside these towers. The fact, pamplinas, is that your intimidation and 'hostility' will not be tolerated... the sooner you and your colleagues realise that, the better! Fact!!
Un saludo
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@ Out of the Gap:
Nope, I'm not working at one of those towers although this being a small world I obviously have good friends there. I can't avoid being biased given that I'm a spanish atco and thus I have had to live through "interesting times" for the last few years... wouldn't wish it to any of you.
I try not to hide the fact that I am biased and try to provide information so that anybody can make their own informed choices, a luxury I was not given. I have stated as my personal opinion that I wouldn't advise any friend to become atco in Spain so when I present the facts that lead me to that conclusion it is unavoidable that I sound biased. Nevertheless I try to provide all the facts so that anybody can make up their own mind.
As far as mr. Pamplinas is concerned, he may be a bit more vehement than myself but rest assured that we are of the same opinion... except where he states that the maximum fine atcos face in Spain is 225.000 €... please refer to my post #19 in this same thread where I have linked the modification to the Law raising the possible fines to 4.500.000 €.
Answering a few of your statements:
permanent contract: Your definition of permanent seems to be somewhat different than my own. Avoiding conflict over specific words I suppose we can agree that now if your company wanted to fire you for whatever reasons (e.g. earning 55.000 while the rest of your twr earns 30.000), they would have no legal or monetary obstacle to do so.
salary: I agree that for a small tower it is quite acceptable, in fact similar to entry salary at Aena as stated before. However there are no promotion possibilities so that would be the maximum you could expect from FerroNats... and I doubt any new provider after that would be willing to pay more.
holidays: The error here is you do not have those bank holidays since airports are open through the year. In Aena we have 45 days vacations precisely to reflect that fact. In any case it doesn't really matter, the maximum hours per year are 1670 so expect to work close to that regardless of how many days you have off.
OJTI: Being an instructor is an additional responsibility and as such it should be the choice of each individual atco if they want to take that promotion. Being this Spain, all atcos have been ordered to "voluntarily" apply for that rating. The exam is done via computer and it is not possible to fail it, even if you try as you can not get to the next screen unless you put the correct answer. Errors are not recorded.
While I don't see any need for hostility towards the replacements I can understand a certain resentment. In any case I'd just give them the training and get out of there.
Nope, I'm not working at one of those towers although this being a small world I obviously have good friends there. I can't avoid being biased given that I'm a spanish atco and thus I have had to live through "interesting times" for the last few years... wouldn't wish it to any of you.
I try not to hide the fact that I am biased and try to provide information so that anybody can make their own informed choices, a luxury I was not given. I have stated as my personal opinion that I wouldn't advise any friend to become atco in Spain so when I present the facts that lead me to that conclusion it is unavoidable that I sound biased. Nevertheless I try to provide all the facts so that anybody can make up their own mind.
As far as mr. Pamplinas is concerned, he may be a bit more vehement than myself but rest assured that we are of the same opinion... except where he states that the maximum fine atcos face in Spain is 225.000 €... please refer to my post #19 in this same thread where I have linked the modification to the Law raising the possible fines to 4.500.000 €.
Answering a few of your statements:
permanent contract: Your definition of permanent seems to be somewhat different than my own. Avoiding conflict over specific words I suppose we can agree that now if your company wanted to fire you for whatever reasons (e.g. earning 55.000 while the rest of your twr earns 30.000), they would have no legal or monetary obstacle to do so.
salary: I agree that for a small tower it is quite acceptable, in fact similar to entry salary at Aena as stated before. However there are no promotion possibilities so that would be the maximum you could expect from FerroNats... and I doubt any new provider after that would be willing to pay more.
holidays: The error here is you do not have those bank holidays since airports are open through the year. In Aena we have 45 days vacations precisely to reflect that fact. In any case it doesn't really matter, the maximum hours per year are 1670 so expect to work close to that regardless of how many days you have off.
OJTI: Being an instructor is an additional responsibility and as such it should be the choice of each individual atco if they want to take that promotion. Being this Spain, all atcos have been ordered to "voluntarily" apply for that rating. The exam is done via computer and it is not possible to fail it, even if you try as you can not get to the next screen unless you put the correct answer. Errors are not recorded.
While I don't see any need for hostility towards the replacements I can understand a certain resentment. In any case I'd just give them the training and get out of there.
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So then, OTG, should we consider “what you’ve heard” is the real “Fact!”?
I’d really think you’d better know what you’re talking about before shouting out.
Have you read the new Labor Law? What do you call a permanent a contract? Do you know now our T&Cs can be severely lowered or you can even be fired anytime with a minimal severance pay just because your company claims it is expecting lower benefits in the next months (regardless you screw it up or not, believe me)?
Atcs in Spain do not have any national holidays. AENA’s T&C includes 45 holidays. That has nothing to do with Ferronats, who does not offer more than the strict legal minima in this subject: 30 holidays (that’s what I originally meant). Of course you may expect some kind of cycle with the corresponding days off, but you’re going to be disappointed if you are thinking anything “normal” will apply here.
No need for lawyers. Even though there is little the staff can do to oppose with all the legal framework they’ve built to enforce this process, it’s funny how the whole thing is actually based in two dire violations of the current law: they will not respect the T&Cs of the current staff and they will enforce them to request the OJTI rating and to provide the necessary instruction forcibly. With such a scene, do you really think anything you sign today with Ferronats will be observed five years after? Don’t make me laugh.
Anyway I’m playing no intimidation role here, we’re all adults, right? I was only trying to describe the environment likely to be found in those places. Now it’s up to you to show any empathy and solidarity or to join the bunch of mercenaries that are going to do CANSO’s dirty job. I’d love to see the warm welcome you’d give them in such a situation. Well maybe we’ll even have the chance to see such a thing happen in your workplace in the future. Please let us know if you really believe this is the way things must be done.
Beware the vultures!
I’d really think you’d better know what you’re talking about before shouting out.
Have you read the new Labor Law? What do you call a permanent a contract? Do you know now our T&Cs can be severely lowered or you can even be fired anytime with a minimal severance pay just because your company claims it is expecting lower benefits in the next months (regardless you screw it up or not, believe me)?
Atcs in Spain do not have any national holidays. AENA’s T&C includes 45 holidays. That has nothing to do with Ferronats, who does not offer more than the strict legal minima in this subject: 30 holidays (that’s what I originally meant). Of course you may expect some kind of cycle with the corresponding days off, but you’re going to be disappointed if you are thinking anything “normal” will apply here.
No need for lawyers. Even though there is little the staff can do to oppose with all the legal framework they’ve built to enforce this process, it’s funny how the whole thing is actually based in two dire violations of the current law: they will not respect the T&Cs of the current staff and they will enforce them to request the OJTI rating and to provide the necessary instruction forcibly. With such a scene, do you really think anything you sign today with Ferronats will be observed five years after? Don’t make me laugh.
Anyway I’m playing no intimidation role here, we’re all adults, right? I was only trying to describe the environment likely to be found in those places. Now it’s up to you to show any empathy and solidarity or to join the bunch of mercenaries that are going to do CANSO’s dirty job. I’d love to see the warm welcome you’d give them in such a situation. Well maybe we’ll even have the chance to see such a thing happen in your workplace in the future. Please let us know if you really believe this is the way things must be done.
Beware the vultures!
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- Language. Hope you have a good level of Spanish. Although you may use English in frequency regularly, many VFR pilots won’t (and some of the airports move more VFR than IFR traffics). And of course all training with the local staff will be held in Spanish. But that’s not even the most important point: imagine all the vital conversations you’ll need to hold with many workers of the airport (fire brigade, marshals, flight plan office staff, engineers…). They will be working for another company and none of them are expected to speak English, but you must understand them perfectly or your job will be harsh.
It is total madness what's happening down there, and sadly only a crash will lead to an investigation that will uncover the true depth of the crisis that is the appalling standard of Spanish air traffic controllers.
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Pamplinas,
You asked for any additional information on the Ferronats set-up. I understand that NATS have seconded one of their Gibraltarian controllers to Jerez to take part in training the new controllers. Apparently he is currently undergoing training to validate at LEJR as a tower controller (on a UK licence). Once validated he will be part of the team training the new Ferronats guys. I would be interested to know whether as an employee of NATS (UK) he will be subject to all or any of the new draconian laws applying to Spanish ATCO's. When all the new team are in place he will return to work at LXGB.
You asked for any additional information on the Ferronats set-up. I understand that NATS have seconded one of their Gibraltarian controllers to Jerez to take part in training the new controllers. Apparently he is currently undergoing training to validate at LEJR as a tower controller (on a UK licence). Once validated he will be part of the team training the new Ferronats guys. I would be interested to know whether as an employee of NATS (UK) he will be subject to all or any of the new draconian laws applying to Spanish ATCO's. When all the new team are in place he will return to work at LXGB.
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McNulty the spanish law says all controllers have an english lvl4 at least. No exam, no training, no... nothing, just the law says it. Don´t blame the poor worker, blame the potitician that approved that law!
You should have seen the exams for the OJT in those towers. For example, one question, answer is YES or NO. You choose NO, and it´s wrong, so the computers stays on that question once and again until you press YES... and all the controllers passed the exam for OJT!!!
I could tell you more examples, but no reason, as you will blame the controllers anyway.
And radarman, as long as he is working in Spain he can be punished acording to spanish law. Anyway tell him to hurry, we want the controllers of that twr in the ACC as soon as possible so our work time can be reduced.
Cya along your flight plan route
You should have seen the exams for the OJT in those towers. For example, one question, answer is YES or NO. You choose NO, and it´s wrong, so the computers stays on that question once and again until you press YES... and all the controllers passed the exam for OJT!!!
I could tell you more examples, but no reason, as you will blame the controllers anyway.
And radarman, as long as he is working in Spain he can be punished acording to spanish law. Anyway tell him to hurry, we want the controllers of that twr in the ACC as soon as possible so our work time can be reduced.
Cya along your flight plan route
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Akhorahil:
I brought up the appalling standard of English amongst Spanish controllers in response to his claim that a less than fluent standard of Spanish amongst incoming controllers could be a cause for safety concerns. OK - so you are only concerned with safety when it is a by product of something that is threatening your terms and conditions?
And also Akhorahil, you acknowledge the fact that Spanish ATC have poor English, then why don't you and your colleagues start a protest against that? It seems all Spanish ATC give a flying f*ck about is their pay and terms and conditions, and really couldn't care less about safety. This is the reason you get absolutely no sympathy from pilots on here.
I brought up the appalling standard of English amongst Spanish controllers in response to his claim that a less than fluent standard of Spanish amongst incoming controllers could be a cause for safety concerns. OK - so you are only concerned with safety when it is a by product of something that is threatening your terms and conditions?
And also Akhorahil, you acknowledge the fact that Spanish ATC have poor English, then why don't you and your colleagues start a protest against that? It seems all Spanish ATC give a flying f*ck about is their pay and terms and conditions, and really couldn't care less about safety. This is the reason you get absolutely no sympathy from pilots on here.
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Daermon, thank you once again for enlightening us further on the bottomless can of worms that is Spanish ATC, and indeed your own predicament, wherever you are.
Not sure if you spotted it but I actually did refer to your quote of €4.5m in my last post... I'm still speechless at the thought that any government could expect any citizen to pay such a fine, regardless of how many years they were wrongly earning a footballer's salary. Nevertheless Spain is a monarchy and it seems that whatever the dictator-like hatchet says, the hatchet gets... incredibly unjust as it may be.
Firing people.. surely this cannot be done unless you breach certain clear guidelines..? Not just because you rightly earn more than your junior staff, who are just starting off in their careers, while you have 10+ years experience and multiple ratings...? Although €30k doesn't in all honesty appeal overwhelmingly, considering that some of these student controllers could very soon find themselves in some busier tower environments. But hey, Spain is obviously en crisis and employers are calling the shots and able to drive salaries offensively low.
Promotion prospects... apart from becoming a Tower Chief at a busier airport, thats probably as far as the FerroNATS cul-de-sac goes. One would need to go elsewhere within NATS itself methinks to get any further promotion. (Don't forget that in another 10 years, Remote Virtual Tower technology could well be the norm across much of the developed world, and in NATS' case, looking remotely after at least 40 of the airports in Spain from a remote barn in Wales! ..or something like that).
Bank holidays... is there not, like in other countries, a system whereby, if you work a bank/national/church holiday, you get a day-in-lieu or some sort of overtime? As you rightly say, at least now there is a cap on the annual number of ordinary and overtime hours you can work, unlike before, so one should have adequate time off..
OJTIs... well that system employed by Aena is clearly plain wrong; not everyone is suited to being or wants to be an instructor, so it should not be forced. I assume in any case there is some form of remuneration for being one?
Pamplinas! Apologies if I came across as 'shouting out', but your attitude has at times come across as intimidatory in previous posts.
Yes, I have understood enough of the labour law to realise that a permanent contract should in theory be just that.. permanent.. and workers can be disposed of with nil, or as you say minimal pay... but only for a valid offence. Otherwise, a court of law should surely come into play. In any case, are you only referring here to your own vulnerable T&Cs with Aena, as ruthless as they have become against ATCOs, or are you referring to every other Spanish employer also? That they too can equally dismiss employees unfairly, for no valid reason?? If that is so, then obviously whats 'permanent' today, can be gone tomorrow, and the system as a whole is a complete farce. For example, la policía in their various forms... do they, among other government departments, not have permanent contracts?
I've mentioned the bank/national holidays earlier to Daermon, but would still like to know if you are reimbursed for working them. If the 1670 (+ 80 overtime) annual hour limits are adhered to, then that is as much a 'normality' as anyone can expect, and should ensure that staff are not crazily overworked as before.
Regarding empathy and solidarity... don't start me! Yes pamplinas, I agree with you that this is definitely not the ideal solution to solving the problem (but what is???), by 'ousting' staff and families out of their home environments, in order that they may somehow struggle to maintain their (in most cases inflated and greed-driven, albeit earned-by-the-clock) salaries. (Maybe when the good times rolled, you all bought mansions, yachts and sportscars, building up massive debt, or maybe you all just got too used to a good thing... and then when the gravy train ran low on fuel and when the footballer salaries were slashed, you behaved like spoiled brats, wanting to keep all your candy).
I mean, the cold reality here is that Aena, through their own gross mis-management and through collective agreements with the union USCA, built up a debt of €1.2 billion (possibly the largest ever debt for any ANSP per head employee), €785 million of which was attributable to some 2300 ATCO salaries alone! Who's fault was this pamplinas??
Surely then a radical overhaul must begin somewhere?? Either in the form of privatisation starting from the 'grass roots' of the Control Towers... or else widespread dismissal a la Reagan style, as eloquently posted (in the LEBL EIN A320 thread), by Heathrow Director who, like many of us, is "all for workers rights and fair representation of workers but what you had here was a bunch of highly paid public servants who milked the system dry and when the country was facing financial ruin tried to hold it to ransom and continue to do so. For that they should, as has been said above, all be sacked. Reagan style." And then all be re-hired again at lower salaries. (Not necessarily as low as FerroNATS, mind you). I mean, was Zapatero, the previous prime minister, not earning something like €95k a year, according to a list of national salaries published some years back? How then can you ever justify the hundreds of thousands that you have earned over the same period? And all the while, when safety, the single most important aspect of all, suffers the most.
Sonnendec, and others like him, can complain all they want about not winning sympathy from anyone. But now its no longer about lowered terms and conditions, or even about inefficient or preferential controlling and enforcing SIDS, STARS and filed flight plan routes... its now about safety, people's lives, about forcing crews to declare PAN-PANs so that they can hope to land somewhere. I mean, seriously.. you guys have lost all chances of any sympathy vote from any dog on the street, let alone every pilot, controller and aviation enthusiast that reads this forum. Your own downfall has been your own greed, and the sooner you all realise that and come back down to austerity-stricken earth, the better for you. And the sooner you start to do your jobs properly, the better for the rest of us.
By the way, for the benefit of any non-Spanish can any of you please explain whats going on here.. Acoso laboral de Aena a los controladores del Centro de Control de Torrejón y censura informativa - YouTube ?
Not sure if you spotted it but I actually did refer to your quote of €4.5m in my last post... I'm still speechless at the thought that any government could expect any citizen to pay such a fine, regardless of how many years they were wrongly earning a footballer's salary. Nevertheless Spain is a monarchy and it seems that whatever the dictator-like hatchet says, the hatchet gets... incredibly unjust as it may be.
Firing people.. surely this cannot be done unless you breach certain clear guidelines..? Not just because you rightly earn more than your junior staff, who are just starting off in their careers, while you have 10+ years experience and multiple ratings...? Although €30k doesn't in all honesty appeal overwhelmingly, considering that some of these student controllers could very soon find themselves in some busier tower environments. But hey, Spain is obviously en crisis and employers are calling the shots and able to drive salaries offensively low.
Promotion prospects... apart from becoming a Tower Chief at a busier airport, thats probably as far as the FerroNATS cul-de-sac goes. One would need to go elsewhere within NATS itself methinks to get any further promotion. (Don't forget that in another 10 years, Remote Virtual Tower technology could well be the norm across much of the developed world, and in NATS' case, looking remotely after at least 40 of the airports in Spain from a remote barn in Wales! ..or something like that).
Bank holidays... is there not, like in other countries, a system whereby, if you work a bank/national/church holiday, you get a day-in-lieu or some sort of overtime? As you rightly say, at least now there is a cap on the annual number of ordinary and overtime hours you can work, unlike before, so one should have adequate time off..
OJTIs... well that system employed by Aena is clearly plain wrong; not everyone is suited to being or wants to be an instructor, so it should not be forced. I assume in any case there is some form of remuneration for being one?
Pamplinas! Apologies if I came across as 'shouting out', but your attitude has at times come across as intimidatory in previous posts.
Yes, I have understood enough of the labour law to realise that a permanent contract should in theory be just that.. permanent.. and workers can be disposed of with nil, or as you say minimal pay... but only for a valid offence. Otherwise, a court of law should surely come into play. In any case, are you only referring here to your own vulnerable T&Cs with Aena, as ruthless as they have become against ATCOs, or are you referring to every other Spanish employer also? That they too can equally dismiss employees unfairly, for no valid reason?? If that is so, then obviously whats 'permanent' today, can be gone tomorrow, and the system as a whole is a complete farce. For example, la policía in their various forms... do they, among other government departments, not have permanent contracts?
I've mentioned the bank/national holidays earlier to Daermon, but would still like to know if you are reimbursed for working them. If the 1670 (+ 80 overtime) annual hour limits are adhered to, then that is as much a 'normality' as anyone can expect, and should ensure that staff are not crazily overworked as before.
Regarding empathy and solidarity... don't start me! Yes pamplinas, I agree with you that this is definitely not the ideal solution to solving the problem (but what is???), by 'ousting' staff and families out of their home environments, in order that they may somehow struggle to maintain their (in most cases inflated and greed-driven, albeit earned-by-the-clock) salaries. (Maybe when the good times rolled, you all bought mansions, yachts and sportscars, building up massive debt, or maybe you all just got too used to a good thing... and then when the gravy train ran low on fuel and when the footballer salaries were slashed, you behaved like spoiled brats, wanting to keep all your candy).
I mean, the cold reality here is that Aena, through their own gross mis-management and through collective agreements with the union USCA, built up a debt of €1.2 billion (possibly the largest ever debt for any ANSP per head employee), €785 million of which was attributable to some 2300 ATCO salaries alone! Who's fault was this pamplinas??
Surely then a radical overhaul must begin somewhere?? Either in the form of privatisation starting from the 'grass roots' of the Control Towers... or else widespread dismissal a la Reagan style, as eloquently posted (in the LEBL EIN A320 thread), by Heathrow Director who, like many of us, is "all for workers rights and fair representation of workers but what you had here was a bunch of highly paid public servants who milked the system dry and when the country was facing financial ruin tried to hold it to ransom and continue to do so. For that they should, as has been said above, all be sacked. Reagan style." And then all be re-hired again at lower salaries. (Not necessarily as low as FerroNATS, mind you). I mean, was Zapatero, the previous prime minister, not earning something like €95k a year, according to a list of national salaries published some years back? How then can you ever justify the hundreds of thousands that you have earned over the same period? And all the while, when safety, the single most important aspect of all, suffers the most.
Sonnendec, and others like him, can complain all they want about not winning sympathy from anyone. But now its no longer about lowered terms and conditions, or even about inefficient or preferential controlling and enforcing SIDS, STARS and filed flight plan routes... its now about safety, people's lives, about forcing crews to declare PAN-PANs so that they can hope to land somewhere. I mean, seriously.. you guys have lost all chances of any sympathy vote from any dog on the street, let alone every pilot, controller and aviation enthusiast that reads this forum. Your own downfall has been your own greed, and the sooner you all realise that and come back down to austerity-stricken earth, the better for you. And the sooner you start to do your jobs properly, the better for the rest of us.
By the way, for the benefit of any non-Spanish can any of you please explain whats going on here.. Acoso laboral de Aena a los controladores del Centro de Control de Torrejón y censura informativa - YouTube ?