Spanish ATC
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I think you may find that where NATS had divided it's lower Airspace in London Terminal Control and London Approach control, in Spain it's all called Approach control. Wich explains the difference in staffing they quote. If you would add the staffing level of Terminal to the number of London Approach control, they would be better comparable.
There would appear to be a serious overstaffing of Spanish Air Traffic Controllers and this may well be the real reason for the Spanish Controllers trying to protect their "Closed Shop" job with every ruse, be it legal or not.
Once the airports are partially privatised within the next 12-18 months and air traffic control towers are run by private firms, the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.
If you don't believe me, read on or page back to pages 14 and 15 of this thread:
Quote:
19th Jul 2010, 16:45 #263 (permalink) speedbird462
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13
approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!
19th Jul 2010, 20:54 #268 (permalink) calcagafo
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10
approach procedures in Spain
Hi Speedbird:
First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.
I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.
We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.
That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.
There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).
Hope this helped
How is it in London?
20th Jul 2010, 15:46 #281 (permalink) speedbird462
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13
Approach procedures in Spain
Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mostly 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.
On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!
21st Jul 2010, 08:37 #285 (permalink) calcagafo
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10
Approach procedures in Spain
Hi there Speedbird:
I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:
what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).
Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming ).
That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.
I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?
Thanks for your support.
There would appear to be a serious overstaffing of Spanish Air Traffic Controllers and this may well be the real reason for the Spanish Controllers trying to protect their "Closed Shop" job with every ruse, be it legal or not.
Once the airports are partially privatised within the next 12-18 months and air traffic control towers are run by private firms, the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.
If you don't believe me, read on or page back to pages 14 and 15 of this thread:
Quote:
19th Jul 2010, 16:45 #263 (permalink) speedbird462
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13
approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!
19th Jul 2010, 20:54 #268 (permalink) calcagafo
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10
approach procedures in Spain
Hi Speedbird:
First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.
I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.
We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.
That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.
There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).
Hope this helped
How is it in London?
20th Jul 2010, 15:46 #281 (permalink) speedbird462
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13
Approach procedures in Spain
Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mostly 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.
On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!
21st Jul 2010, 08:37 #285 (permalink) calcagafo
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10
Approach procedures in Spain
Hi there Speedbird:
I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:
what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).
Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming ).
That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.
I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?
Thanks for your support.
Once the airports are partially privatised within the next 12-18 months and air traffic control towers are run by private firms, the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.
If you don't believe me, read on or page back to pages 14 and 15 of this thread:
Quote:
19th Jul 2010, 16:45 #263 (permalink) speedbird462
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13
approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!
19th Jul 2010, 20:54 #268 (permalink) calcagafo
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10
approach procedures in Spain
Hi Speedbird:
First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.
I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.
We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.
That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.
There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).
Hope this helped
How is it in London?
20th Jul 2010, 15:46 #281 (permalink) speedbird462
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13
Approach procedures in Spain
Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mostly 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.
On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!
21st Jul 2010, 08:37 #285 (permalink) calcagafo
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10
Approach procedures in Spain
Hi there Speedbird:
I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:
what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).
Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming ).
That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.
I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?
Thanks for your support.
There would appear to be a serious overstaffing of Spanish Air Traffic Controllers and this may well be the real reason for the Spanish Controllers trying to protect their "Closed Shop" job with every ruse, be it legal or not.
Once the airports are partially privatised within the next 12-18 months and air traffic control towers are run by private firms, the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.
If you don't believe me, read on or page back to pages 14 and 15 of this thread:
Quote:
19th Jul 2010, 16:45 #263 (permalink) speedbird462
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13
approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!
19th Jul 2010, 20:54 #268 (permalink) calcagafo
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10
approach procedures in Spain
Hi Speedbird:
First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.
I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.
We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.
That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.
There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).
Hope this helped
How is it in London?
20th Jul 2010, 15:46 #281 (permalink) speedbird462
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13
Approach procedures in Spain
Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mostly 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.
On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!
21st Jul 2010, 08:37 #285 (permalink) calcagafo
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10
Approach procedures in Spain
Hi there Speedbird:
I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:
what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).
Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming ).
That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.
I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?
Thanks for your support.
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Hi everybody,
First of all, thanks to all of you that understand the very hard times we spanish ATCOs are going through and don't get blinded by the easy and mob focused speaking about our huge earnings and wonderful working conditions. All of that is gone and will never come back, but accepting that is one thing, and accepting slavery is a different one.
First of all, I wanted to focus everyone's attention back to the match that fired the fuel can: hours accounting. In July, they raised our yearly maximum hours from 1200 (I recognize it WAS great, I joined this job for the free time) up to 1670 plus 80 extra 'voluntary' hours (they can force you to 'volunteer' indeed), with no negotiation at all.
But the empty heads in our government don't even know how to add 2+2, so the new maximum hours are not enough in most working centers. In Spain, the maximum working hours for ANYONE is around 1800, common jobs, monday to friday, with weekends and public holidays. That maximum usually decreases if the job has special conditions, like shifts, stress, health risks, works holidays/weekends and so on. People working shifts in my own company NOT ATCs rarely exceed 1500 hours per year. Many spanish ATCOs will work, thanks to a retroactive law (illegal by definition in spain), something like 1750 'aeronautic' hours, I mean, sitting in front of your screen talking with planes (with 20% rests during day and 30% nightly). Then add to that maximum the 'non-aeronautic' hours, like training/formation, medical examinations, backup shifts where you MUST be ready to go to job, but don't get called... For me, a simple mind, every hour I spend doing any task related to my job, is a worked hour, as I can't be with my family. So you can end up with 2000~2200 hours worked a year. Split it in 8 hours per day, you work 250~275 days working... But hey!!! We work nights, do you know the term 'sleeping day'??? Okay, me too, but my company and government doesn't, so they are accounted as off days. You see the point?? In my simple mind that reminds me of slavery.
And in what european country, if your take a one month sick leave due to surgery, p.e., you have to give back to the company the days in that month that you couldn't work??? Apart of spain, I mean.
And about money, forget everything you knew or believed to, the latest 48 ATCOs contracted, are earning ~1700€/month. Rub your eyes and read it again, it's correct, ~20500€/year after taxes. The older of us are way better, a small TWR ATCO earning ~3500€/month, 42500€/year after taxes, working some 1500 hours/year.
And there are LOTS of things to add to these, like 365/24 availability, if the company calls you ANY day and you unhang the phone, you're screwed, the law forces you to attend the service. Many of us NEVER answer a call in our free days from unknown numbers, and my kids are taught not to answer the fixed line, instead my wife does and I am never home nor locatable.
Now the govmt. pres. says that he may need to extend the alarm period for 2 additional months!!! I want to quit my job and I cannot!!!! There are fellow ATCOs that had gone through the interviews to migrate to Germany, and now they are 'kidnapped' and can't take the job offer they already had... It's a mad situation, with no logical solution, and we are AFRAID about where will all of this situation end into...
By the way, I want to say that the vast majority of us are really comfortable working for the military. We are being treated with more respect now that ever in the last year and a half. I've been told that in ACC's the sectors capacity is being respected first time in MANY months since military took control. Previously, the company understaffed the shifts, opening less sectors BUT offering more capacity that even with all the positions open!!! I've seen LEMD's bay photos where 6 planes were scheduled with the same CTOT.
My only hope is that my military status finishes the soonest so I can resign and get back to a better 'civilian' job in computing, hopefully in a different country. Spain is going to need many years to recover from our current govern...
Kind regards to all of you
First of all, thanks to all of you that understand the very hard times we spanish ATCOs are going through and don't get blinded by the easy and mob focused speaking about our huge earnings and wonderful working conditions. All of that is gone and will never come back, but accepting that is one thing, and accepting slavery is a different one.
First of all, I wanted to focus everyone's attention back to the match that fired the fuel can: hours accounting. In July, they raised our yearly maximum hours from 1200 (I recognize it WAS great, I joined this job for the free time) up to 1670 plus 80 extra 'voluntary' hours (they can force you to 'volunteer' indeed), with no negotiation at all.
But the empty heads in our government don't even know how to add 2+2, so the new maximum hours are not enough in most working centers. In Spain, the maximum working hours for ANYONE is around 1800, common jobs, monday to friday, with weekends and public holidays. That maximum usually decreases if the job has special conditions, like shifts, stress, health risks, works holidays/weekends and so on. People working shifts in my own company NOT ATCs rarely exceed 1500 hours per year. Many spanish ATCOs will work, thanks to a retroactive law (illegal by definition in spain), something like 1750 'aeronautic' hours, I mean, sitting in front of your screen talking with planes (with 20% rests during day and 30% nightly). Then add to that maximum the 'non-aeronautic' hours, like training/formation, medical examinations, backup shifts where you MUST be ready to go to job, but don't get called... For me, a simple mind, every hour I spend doing any task related to my job, is a worked hour, as I can't be with my family. So you can end up with 2000~2200 hours worked a year. Split it in 8 hours per day, you work 250~275 days working... But hey!!! We work nights, do you know the term 'sleeping day'??? Okay, me too, but my company and government doesn't, so they are accounted as off days. You see the point?? In my simple mind that reminds me of slavery.
And in what european country, if your take a one month sick leave due to surgery, p.e., you have to give back to the company the days in that month that you couldn't work??? Apart of spain, I mean.
And about money, forget everything you knew or believed to, the latest 48 ATCOs contracted, are earning ~1700€/month. Rub your eyes and read it again, it's correct, ~20500€/year after taxes. The older of us are way better, a small TWR ATCO earning ~3500€/month, 42500€/year after taxes, working some 1500 hours/year.
And there are LOTS of things to add to these, like 365/24 availability, if the company calls you ANY day and you unhang the phone, you're screwed, the law forces you to attend the service. Many of us NEVER answer a call in our free days from unknown numbers, and my kids are taught not to answer the fixed line, instead my wife does and I am never home nor locatable.
Now the govmt. pres. says that he may need to extend the alarm period for 2 additional months!!! I want to quit my job and I cannot!!!! There are fellow ATCOs that had gone through the interviews to migrate to Germany, and now they are 'kidnapped' and can't take the job offer they already had... It's a mad situation, with no logical solution, and we are AFRAID about where will all of this situation end into...
By the way, I want to say that the vast majority of us are really comfortable working for the military. We are being treated with more respect now that ever in the last year and a half. I've been told that in ACC's the sectors capacity is being respected first time in MANY months since military took control. Previously, the company understaffed the shifts, opening less sectors BUT offering more capacity that even with all the positions open!!! I've seen LEMD's bay photos where 6 planes were scheduled with the same CTOT.
My only hope is that my military status finishes the soonest so I can resign and get back to a better 'civilian' job in computing, hopefully in a different country. Spain is going to need many years to recover from our current govern...
Kind regards to all of you
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interpretation??
Old_Fokker
Is it so peculiar to interpret that sick leave, maternity/paternity leave or formation should count as working time?
Because they do count in any other job in Spain (as I suppose in most democratic countries)
Regards
that they would persist with their peculiar interpretation of working time/overtime rules
Because they do count in any other job in Spain (as I suppose in most democratic countries)
Regards
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The REAL WORLD
Angele and all the other Spanish ATCOs,
I have pointed out in an earlier post in this thread that you guys will need support from the aviation community and you should aim at not making everyone your adversary. That was a short while before the ultimate clash that we have seen now and obviously too late anyway. And, as has been worked out in other posts here before, presumably you guys and your union didn't want to listen to well meaning suggestions.
To an extent I can can grasp your extreme anger you are in at the moment, however, you should realize that what you are complaining about in your current working conditions is actually the REAL WORLD for many in the aviation world, let alone the "normal" working staff. And I am not talking of some third world countries!
In the Area Control Centre (somewhat further north than Spain) where I used to work there were also some Spanish colleagues. When the first started work there, we were of course wondering why they would go for a permanent winter climate rather than enjoying nice southern European weather. The more so when we learned over time the unbelievably fantastic working conditions in Spanish ATC. But it became clear then, that our Spanish fellows weren't admitted to the national Spanish ATS because of reasons that were already discussed in this thread here before.
Maybe its about time for you guys, after having calmed down somewhat, to regain a view for what is a normal working life, particularly in the current state of your country's economy. You've had golden times, and I am saying that without any jealousy, but it is about time to face reality now!
I have pointed out in an earlier post in this thread that you guys will need support from the aviation community and you should aim at not making everyone your adversary. That was a short while before the ultimate clash that we have seen now and obviously too late anyway. And, as has been worked out in other posts here before, presumably you guys and your union didn't want to listen to well meaning suggestions.
To an extent I can can grasp your extreme anger you are in at the moment, however, you should realize that what you are complaining about in your current working conditions is actually the REAL WORLD for many in the aviation world, let alone the "normal" working staff. And I am not talking of some third world countries!
In the Area Control Centre (somewhat further north than Spain) where I used to work there were also some Spanish colleagues. When the first started work there, we were of course wondering why they would go for a permanent winter climate rather than enjoying nice southern European weather. The more so when we learned over time the unbelievably fantastic working conditions in Spanish ATC. But it became clear then, that our Spanish fellows weren't admitted to the national Spanish ATS because of reasons that were already discussed in this thread here before.
Maybe its about time for you guys, after having calmed down somewhat, to regain a view for what is a normal working life, particularly in the current state of your country's economy. You've had golden times, and I am saying that without any jealousy, but it is about time to face reality now!
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First of all, if you really want to compare your working conditions with pilots don't be surprised if many do not see the point.
First of all, the limit per year for working (duty) hours is 2000, and we do reach it nearly every year, of course depending on company and network conditions. Doesn't matter if it's day or night, or both. Doesn't matter if we work in constant jetlag conditions because we do fly eastbound and westbound longrange back to back.
Yes, it is. Even standby duty if not done at an airport is not working time. Neither is CBT training which is nowadays the main method of training, simply because we can do it over the internet from home in our spare time. Simulator time on the other hand is both working and flight duty time in my company, however the flight duty time part is only because of a collective agreement. We do have some minimum conditions for all of europe, and that is probably something you should try and lobby for via your european union but don't be surprised that it will be in all probability pretty bad as well.
In my previous desk job it was simply expected to work somewhere above 80 hours a week, allnighters preceded and followed by a normal day of work were simply, a completely free sunday was a rare luxury. Being on call 24/7 in case some server had problems was also part of the normal working life.
First of all, the limit per year for working (duty) hours is 2000, and we do reach it nearly every year, of course depending on company and network conditions. Doesn't matter if it's day or night, or both. Doesn't matter if we work in constant jetlag conditions because we do fly eastbound and westbound longrange back to back.
Is it so peculiar to interpret that sick leave, maternity/paternity leave or formation should count as working time?
In my previous desk job it was simply expected to work somewhere above 80 hours a week, allnighters preceded and followed by a normal day of work were simply, a completely free sunday was a rare luxury. Being on call 24/7 in case some server had problems was also part of the normal working life.
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Tying into the post by DjerbaDevil, if one looks at the AIPs (AD) for EGLL and LEBL, we notice:
- EGLL has four frequencies assigned to APP, one main and three used as instructed by ATC. LEBL has seven frequencies assigned to APP. It's curious that in the 'Remarks' column, the frequencies are marked as APP-H, APP-I and APP-L, while there is no definition of their meaning, one could guess "high", "intermediate" and "low".
- EGLL has one full-time frequency for TWR, and another used 0700-2200 or as instructed, for busy periods. LEBL has two frequencies for TWR, apparently full-time.
- EGLL has one frequency for delivery, which is not full-time. LEBL has also one frequency for delivery.
- EGLL has three GMC frequencies. LEBL has five GMC frequencies, marked as "GMC SC", "GMC W", "GMC E", "GMC SS", and "GMC SN". Again, there is no indication as to what the letters after GMC mean.
Now, for the numbers (taken from official BAA and AENA statistics):
- EGLL handled, in 2008, 67 million passengers and 322,000 movements.
- LEBL handled, in 2008, 30 million passengers and 152,000 movements.
Roughly, LEBL handled 47% of EGLL's movement load, and 45% of EGLL's passenger load. In absolute terms, London Heathrow handled one movement every 1.6 minutes, whereas Barcelona handled one movement every 3.5 minutes.
Does this tally with the number of assigned frequencies? Someone above mentioned every active frequency in Spain has TWO controllers assigned to it, one handling the phones and the other the radio. If Barcelona has many more APP frequencies, the logic should be that it is so due to the large number of movements - how can Heathrow cope with less? As for GMC, Barcelona is again over-resourced, as it has two more frequencies than Heathrow, and again, not as many movements.
Pilots who regularly fly to/from these two airfields could chip in - IMHO, at least in Barcelona, ATC is over-staffed for the number of movements it has, no wonder the controllers "ran out of hours" before year's end.
- EGLL has four frequencies assigned to APP, one main and three used as instructed by ATC. LEBL has seven frequencies assigned to APP. It's curious that in the 'Remarks' column, the frequencies are marked as APP-H, APP-I and APP-L, while there is no definition of their meaning, one could guess "high", "intermediate" and "low".
- EGLL has one full-time frequency for TWR, and another used 0700-2200 or as instructed, for busy periods. LEBL has two frequencies for TWR, apparently full-time.
- EGLL has one frequency for delivery, which is not full-time. LEBL has also one frequency for delivery.
- EGLL has three GMC frequencies. LEBL has five GMC frequencies, marked as "GMC SC", "GMC W", "GMC E", "GMC SS", and "GMC SN". Again, there is no indication as to what the letters after GMC mean.
Now, for the numbers (taken from official BAA and AENA statistics):
- EGLL handled, in 2008, 67 million passengers and 322,000 movements.
- LEBL handled, in 2008, 30 million passengers and 152,000 movements.
Roughly, LEBL handled 47% of EGLL's movement load, and 45% of EGLL's passenger load. In absolute terms, London Heathrow handled one movement every 1.6 minutes, whereas Barcelona handled one movement every 3.5 minutes.
Does this tally with the number of assigned frequencies? Someone above mentioned every active frequency in Spain has TWO controllers assigned to it, one handling the phones and the other the radio. If Barcelona has many more APP frequencies, the logic should be that it is so due to the large number of movements - how can Heathrow cope with less? As for GMC, Barcelona is again over-resourced, as it has two more frequencies than Heathrow, and again, not as many movements.
Pilots who regularly fly to/from these two airfields could chip in - IMHO, at least in Barcelona, ATC is over-staffed for the number of movements it has, no wonder the controllers "ran out of hours" before year's end.
Last edited by flameproof; 7th Dec 2010 at 16:35. Reason: Fixed math typo.
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P_perez:
I responded to both of them in one single answer.
None whatsoever. I translated and posted his articles here to shed some light on the issue from what appears to be 'the other side' which in my opinion is always healthy in any open discussion. If you have a problem with that, please state so.
Again, don't go looking for conspiracy theories because there are none. I already stated some personal details about myself some posts back. If you don't believe me, that is your problem.
calcagafo:
It is peculiar when the competent authorities have informed you repeatedly how to calculate those hours yet you persisted in doing it your way with the result that some towers were not staffed during certain shifts.
Nice how you compare your job to that of any other job in Spain when it suits you. How about you state here all the perks you have enjoined and still wanted which no other job in Spain has ever had.
Any answer to my 2 questions?
And also, you seem quite fond of this Capella guy ... anything personal in that?
Again, don't go looking for conspiracy theories because there are none. I already stated some personal details about myself some posts back. If you don't believe me, that is your problem.
calcagafo:
Is it so peculiar to interpret that sick leave, maternity/paternity leave or formation should count as working time?
Because they do count in any other job in Spain (as I suppose in most democratic countries)
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Oh, and before anyone jumps on my head about Barcelona's APP frequencies, there are also 14 other frequencies (civilian) assigned to Barcelona's UIR and FIR, apart from those I count on my post.
Also, commenting on AngeleToR's post:
So, you are saying that with the same staff, you had 1200 hours maximum, and they were enough. They now raise this maximum to 1670 + 80 voluntary, you have the same staff, and this is now NOT enough? Who are you kidding?
The difference is that overtime hours were paid at ridiculously high prices by AENA. No wonder the average salary went from 330k€ to 200k€. No wonder you are all 'sick'.
Also, commenting on AngeleToR's post:
Originally Posted by AngeleToR
In July, they raised our yearly maximum hours from 1200 (I recognize it WAS great, I joined this job for the free time) up to 1670 plus 80 extra 'voluntary' hours (they can force you to 'volunteer' indeed), with no negotiation at all.
But the empty heads in our government don't even know how to add 2+2, so the new maximum hours are not enough in most working centers.
But the empty heads in our government don't even know how to add 2+2, so the new maximum hours are not enough in most working centers.
The difference is that overtime hours were paid at ridiculously high prices by AENA. No wonder the average salary went from 330k€ to 200k€. No wonder you are all 'sick'.
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Flameproof: Look at my previous post, all is depending on what they call BCN APP. It can be that those 14 controllers are for an airspace that is much bigger than only the EGLL APP area. NATS UK gave the part of airspace between the LL TMA and the upper Airspace another name. (London Terminal Control) It could very well be that BCN just called all of it Approach.
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Surferboy,
Thanks, I read your post and that's why I added another one citing the ENR AIP, which lists 14 frequencies for Barcelona's FIR and UIR, so those are on top of the ones listed under APP for Barcelona. In addition, the APP frequencies are listed in the LEBL AD AIP, thus someone only going through the FIR would not be concerned by them.
Thanks, I read your post and that's why I added another one citing the ENR AIP, which lists 14 frequencies for Barcelona's FIR and UIR, so those are on top of the ones listed under APP for Barcelona. In addition, the APP frequencies are listed in the LEBL AD AIP, thus someone only going through the FIR would not be concerned by them.
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Originally Posted by Old_Fokker
P_perez;
Quote:
You seem to express yourself with great authority, for someone who has confessed is not a professional pilot nor ATC. Try answering this question: why didn't Spanish President Zapatero go to the Ibero-American Summit this year and decided to stay at home? This has never happened in 20 years since the first Summit.
And also: why did Spanish Economy minister Elena Salgado acknowledge during a radio interview that there could be 'problems' with Spanish ATCO's, 3 DAYS BEFORE THE NEW ROYAL DECREE WAS RELEASED?
Because one could deduct from USCA's November 29 press release that they would persist with their peculiar interpretation of working time/overtime rules and that as a result of that, airspace all over Spain would have to be closed in the last few remaining weeks of the year?
Quote:
You seem to express yourself with great authority, for someone who has confessed is not a professional pilot nor ATC. Try answering this question: why didn't Spanish President Zapatero go to the Ibero-American Summit this year and decided to stay at home? This has never happened in 20 years since the first Summit.
And also: why did Spanish Economy minister Elena Salgado acknowledge during a radio interview that there could be 'problems' with Spanish ATCO's, 3 DAYS BEFORE THE NEW ROYAL DECREE WAS RELEASED?
Because one could deduct from USCA's November 29 press release that they would persist with their peculiar interpretation of working time/overtime rules and that as a result of that, airspace all over Spain would have to be closed in the last few remaining weeks of the year?
YouTube - El presidente de AENA dijo que 1670 horas de jornada eran suficientes
Basically here he explained "theoretically" how many hours a controller has to work. 1670. Rough translation:
...that law dictates 1670 hours. But also, from there, if you count 48 hours for personal matters (which controllers are entitled to as [any] other workers in Spain). If there's 10 hours for the psichophysical [medical] testing. And 60 hours of training. The effective working hours, including rest/breaks, is 1552 hours.
Oh holy one I beg your mercy since I am a mere mortal and have to fulfill my chores. I swear to persevere in ensuring the right to travel of your pious flock. Amen.
AngeleToR you would have us feel sorry for you, and I think it's nothing short of disgusting. Stop blaming the government, it's YOU thats the problem.
I've been working out of Spain for two years, and you'd have us believe you were the best ATCO's in the world, when actually you're by far the worst. I'd love for any of you to go work one shift in london for the day, you wouldn't cope (the answer isnt always 220kt - 150 miles from destination).
I could honestly talk all day about this, but tomorrow when I go to work again, and hear you say, 'XXX Tower under military control' it makes me so happy.
Your entire economy relies on tourism, and you want to destroy it. You are all so bad you shouldn't even be paid what you are, let alone a pay increase!
Making the money you do, when you're country is screwed like it is, i say again, is nothing short of DISGUSTING.
STATION CALLING, STATION CALLING, STATION CALLING!!!!
I've been working out of Spain for two years, and you'd have us believe you were the best ATCO's in the world, when actually you're by far the worst. I'd love for any of you to go work one shift in london for the day, you wouldn't cope (the answer isnt always 220kt - 150 miles from destination).
I could honestly talk all day about this, but tomorrow when I go to work again, and hear you say, 'XXX Tower under military control' it makes me so happy.
Your entire economy relies on tourism, and you want to destroy it. You are all so bad you shouldn't even be paid what you are, let alone a pay increase!
Making the money you do, when you're country is screwed like it is, i say again, is nothing short of DISGUSTING.
STATION CALLING, STATION CALLING, STATION CALLING!!!!
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VJW
You´re on UK, no idea what´s going on here, it´s not the ATC, it´s a political problem. First were the pilots, now the ATCO´s, next who?
One thing about the president of AENA, Mr. Lema. His wife is the head of Human resources at AENA, he was before president of San Jose, a constractor company which by the way gets all the contracts from AENA, T1 at Barcelona 1billion €, Eng at Madrid Airport 6 billion€, Leon Airport and so, close friend of Jose Blanco, Ministry of Fomento.... During 5 months he was president of AENA and at the same time president of this builder.
This is just one thing, this goes further. How much is AENA going to save on ATCO´s salaries? 100 million€? they have a debt of 30 billion €, yep!!!
This issue has nothing to do with ATCO´s salaries or conditions, they are using them in their own interest against society so cover the real economical problems for selling AENA. Sorry to say but socialists has always been a cancer for us like they are now.
Also, do you know that if a country is on a sate of alarm you stop paying loan interests? yep, another thing
Do you know that Jose Blanco promised on february that end of the year there would be another extra 500 new ATCO´s? yep, sure, if the trainee pays more than 100.000€, they have none so far.
Do you know that there are 47 airports on Spain and only 7 have positive earnings?
Do you know that Mr. Zapatero ordered to built a 4.000 meters runway in Leon and a hughe new pax terminal? by the way, he is from Leon and do you know which is the movement of passengers per month? 600, that´s it
I can write an encyclopedia on lots of thing they are doing but this country is death and people don´t react, instead of blaming those who earn a high salary blame why there are close to 6.000.000 unemployed and the minimum basic salary is 426€...
That´s it, I don´t care how many frequencies are in London or JFK, I fly over there and I know who you can trust or not and I know your job, if I have an emergency I want to land as soon as possible, if you help me ok, if you don´t better start clearing traffic because I´m going down.
About Barcelona I know the problems very close, and some things are good and others aren´t, more than 40 different SID´s and a ton of STAR´s is a pain. I flew from UUWW for a time and there was only 2 SID´s and 2 STAR´s, plain easy, no problem, better for us and better for controllers.
By the way, russians are improving a lot, lovely country.
You´re on UK, no idea what´s going on here, it´s not the ATC, it´s a political problem. First were the pilots, now the ATCO´s, next who?
One thing about the president of AENA, Mr. Lema. His wife is the head of Human resources at AENA, he was before president of San Jose, a constractor company which by the way gets all the contracts from AENA, T1 at Barcelona 1billion €, Eng at Madrid Airport 6 billion€, Leon Airport and so, close friend of Jose Blanco, Ministry of Fomento.... During 5 months he was president of AENA and at the same time president of this builder.
This is just one thing, this goes further. How much is AENA going to save on ATCO´s salaries? 100 million€? they have a debt of 30 billion €, yep!!!
This issue has nothing to do with ATCO´s salaries or conditions, they are using them in their own interest against society so cover the real economical problems for selling AENA. Sorry to say but socialists has always been a cancer for us like they are now.
Also, do you know that if a country is on a sate of alarm you stop paying loan interests? yep, another thing
Do you know that Jose Blanco promised on february that end of the year there would be another extra 500 new ATCO´s? yep, sure, if the trainee pays more than 100.000€, they have none so far.
Do you know that there are 47 airports on Spain and only 7 have positive earnings?
Do you know that Mr. Zapatero ordered to built a 4.000 meters runway in Leon and a hughe new pax terminal? by the way, he is from Leon and do you know which is the movement of passengers per month? 600, that´s it
I can write an encyclopedia on lots of thing they are doing but this country is death and people don´t react, instead of blaming those who earn a high salary blame why there are close to 6.000.000 unemployed and the minimum basic salary is 426€...
That´s it, I don´t care how many frequencies are in London or JFK, I fly over there and I know who you can trust or not and I know your job, if I have an emergency I want to land as soon as possible, if you help me ok, if you don´t better start clearing traffic because I´m going down.
About Barcelona I know the problems very close, and some things are good and others aren´t, more than 40 different SID´s and a ton of STAR´s is a pain. I flew from UUWW for a time and there was only 2 SID´s and 2 STAR´s, plain easy, no problem, better for us and better for controllers.
By the way, russians are improving a lot, lovely country.
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Spanish ATC are the victims
I read with horror what is being done to the Spanish controllers.
They are scapegoats for incompetent management.
They are being blamed for the government's mistakes.
And the abusive language directed at them by others is ill-informed and unfair.
The Spanish controllers are being vigorously attacked and should be supported.
Basic freedoms are being stripped from them.
AENA and the government are to blame and those in charge should be sacked.
To Spanish controllers:
Keep strong, don't listen to abuse and good luck!
They are scapegoats for incompetent management.
They are being blamed for the government's mistakes.
And the abusive language directed at them by others is ill-informed and unfair.
The Spanish controllers are being vigorously attacked and should be supported.
Basic freedoms are being stripped from them.
AENA and the government are to blame and those in charge should be sacked.
To Spanish controllers:
Keep strong, don't listen to abuse and good luck!
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andrijander:
Usually I find short, edited video clips a bit suspect so I looked up what Mr Lema (Mr Lame is a lame joke, don't you agree?) actually said. Turns out that right after he stated the above, he added:
Should you not believe me, and my gut feeling says you won't, you can check it here (PDF alert).
That said, it is the decree which is legal and binding and the decree was officially accepted at the end of July. The fact that even USCA union has not used that argument indicates that either the union leaders are blind, something I cannot imagine, or that they realized it is useless.
Either that or you are running out of arguments.
I guess by "they" you mean USCA. Then how come AENA's president, Mr. Lema (or Lame, as he's better known), explained this during the summer:
YouTube - El presidente de AENA dijo que 1670 horas de jornada eran suficientes
Basically here he explained "theoretically" how many hours a controller has to work. 1670. Rough translation:
Quote:
...that law dictates 1670 hours. But also, from there, if you count 48 hours for personal matters (which controllers are entitled to as [any] other workers in Spain). If there's 10 hours for the psichophysical [medical] testing. And 60 hours of training. The effective working hours, including rest/breaks, is 1552 hours.
YouTube - El presidente de AENA dijo que 1670 horas de jornada eran suficientes
Basically here he explained "theoretically" how many hours a controller has to work. 1670. Rough translation:
Quote:
...that law dictates 1670 hours. But also, from there, if you count 48 hours for personal matters (which controllers are entitled to as [any] other workers in Spain). If there's 10 hours for the psichophysical [medical] testing. And 60 hours of training. The effective working hours, including rest/breaks, is 1552 hours.
""Es un ejercicio teórico. / It is a theoretical exercise."
That said, it is the decree which is legal and binding and the decree was officially accepted at the end of July. The fact that even USCA union has not used that argument indicates that either the union leaders are blind, something I cannot imagine, or that they realized it is useless.
Also, off topic-ish, I haven't replied to our previous exchange because...why bother? Some of your replies were "apples and oranges" and "bullsh1t". Obviously you hold the supreme truth.
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AngeleToR,
Of course, they are careful !
Even though Spanish militaries can't read English and don't understand the tens of posts here refering to March '73, they must remember : both planes were Spanish...
Will I dare say that (for silly reasons and just for two weeks), you're now working for an ANSP we (controllers) are all dreaming about ?
Their motto is : "Safety is our first and only concern"...
Exactly the way I would like ATC to be dealt with.
Note : In SES-2 as I expect it, Safety is only the 5th pillar ! That's already 2 pillars too much to be steady...
We are being treated with more respect now that ever in the last year and a half. I've been told that in ACC's the sectors capacity is being respected first time in MANY months since military took control.
Even though Spanish militaries can't read English and don't understand the tens of posts here refering to March '73, they must remember : both planes were Spanish...
Will I dare say that (for silly reasons and just for two weeks), you're now working for an ANSP we (controllers) are all dreaming about ?
Their motto is : "Safety is our first and only concern"...
Exactly the way I would like ATC to be dealt with.
Note : In SES-2 as I expect it, Safety is only the 5th pillar ! That's already 2 pillars too much to be steady...
Last edited by BrATCO; 8th Dec 2010 at 11:28.
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Thanks for the support and the comprehension. Even many people would like to see us eating from the trash forever, with our houses taken from us by the government and our families living under the bridge just because we had VERY good working conditions (don't forget that we work after all, not like our politicians), right now we are shouting for BASIC rights, that you can read in the spanish constitution, like union negotiation with your company.
Anyway, it's great to see that both IFATCA (professional) and ATCEUC (unions) have published both letters about the 'spanish affair'.
I'm ashamed to recognize that I can't take any more, my wife keeps telling me to resign. I stood until to now because I had faith in a negotiated solution to the problem, but the truth starts to show up so clear: they don't want to negotiate, they don't want even prisoners... They want to destroy ATC in spain to rebuild it from the ground up, people with 1500€/month and no laboral rights... I've got a bachelor in computing, and so does my wife, and most of my fellows ATCs are industrial or aeronautical engineers, and I know MANY of us will get back to their previous lifes.
I love my current job, and will be SO hard to quit, but I've been forced to. I hope to start a new life with my family in another country, bets winner by now are NZ and USA, see you there!!!!
Anyway, it's great to see that both IFATCA (professional) and ATCEUC (unions) have published both letters about the 'spanish affair'.
I'm ashamed to recognize that I can't take any more, my wife keeps telling me to resign. I stood until to now because I had faith in a negotiated solution to the problem, but the truth starts to show up so clear: they don't want to negotiate, they don't want even prisoners... They want to destroy ATC in spain to rebuild it from the ground up, people with 1500€/month and no laboral rights... I've got a bachelor in computing, and so does my wife, and most of my fellows ATCs are industrial or aeronautical engineers, and I know MANY of us will get back to their previous lifes.
I love my current job, and will be SO hard to quit, but I've been forced to. I hope to start a new life with my family in another country, bets winner by now are NZ and USA, see you there!!!!