Spanish ATC

[BDiONU]

Dizzy Llama, that bore restating. I think that the issue here is twofold.

• AENA management spectacularly failed to have sufficient trained and in training workforce to operate their centres and covered the shortfall by paying overtime, lots of overtime. In the short term it worked but where was the long term plan?
• The Spanish government spectacularly failed to oversee and manage the ANSP that operated their countries air transport system. They failed to ensure that there was sufficient workforce, that plans were in place to recruit and train staff and that excessive hours weren't being worked by staff.

The result is a very ugly situation with massive repercutions and I have no idea how they're going to come back from this.

BD

[Nock]

Just my point of view:
I am convinced that the problem is not to determine whether spanish ATCOs have or not guns pointed at their head. The real issue is that there are in centers and towers people that now have authority over ATCO and at the same time no real knowledge of what is civil air traffic control (no offense to army, I'm just saying that our jobs are significantly different).
Who would accept to work with the pressure of someone who has no competence for the job? What are the consequences regarding safety with this situation? I read on this topic that some operational decisions had been taken away fom ATCO and been given to managers, that's already problematical but now if the manager has no training to take these decisions that's another step!
in a word, I'm not sure that we should be so spitful and say that it's only spanish controllers' fault cause one day we all may have to face that situation

Nock

[irishpilot1990]

Nock the safety implications of military control is far less then that off no control! They made their bed now ly in it or go jail

[Nock]

f I had my way I would sack you for compromising safety, 100s of european controllers would happily move Spain and work for less then you and work better!

Irishpilot1990, by reading some European controller publications, I would not be that sure that 100s european controller would like to switch with their spanish counterparts!
source: http://www.atceuc.org/upload/ATC-EUC...n-in-spain.pdf

By the way, as explained on this document, safety really is at stake in this situation, but maybe you have not heard of human factors, what a pity...

Nock

[10W]

Alternatively Irishpilot, you could take the courtesy of actually reading the thread and find out why the salaries were so high. Assuming you are not just some kind of troll of course (PROB90).

The basic pay isn't anything special in European terms. AENA have made a mess of supplying the correct number of controllers over the years. They had an inefficient roster with controllers doing a lot less hours than what could be deemed reasonable elsewhere. That's not the ATCOs fault. And the only way they could get themselves out of their self created pile of poo was to 'bribe' people to come and do extra shifts. That's not the ATCOs fault.

AENA sought to address the rostering issue by changing everyones terms and conditions in a draconian manner. No negotiation, no phased implementation, just imposition. And even then, when they realised they were still going to be short, they brought in even worse (and dangerous) practices where every staff member was at AENAs beck and call H24. They would decide when you got time off, went on holiday, could be ill, could spend time with the family. And if it suited them, they could move the goalposts whenever they needed to, by 'Royal Decree'.

I doubt even Ryanair pilots would stand for that kind of treatment .... or O'Leary would surely have led the industry and have done it by now.

Where Spanish ATCOs can be criticised is for how they have dealt with the fight, they can't be criticised for standing up against the issues they are fighting. If only UK NATS ATCOs had cojones which were as big ....

The 'work to rule' in terms of service to airline operators was misguided I believe. It acheived nothing, except to make enemies with the customers. AENA certainly were not impacted by it.

The 'wildcat' strike was also an own goal. The strike should most definitely have been held, but should have been notified and organised to give airlines time to put pressure on AENA to resolve the situation. Again, all that's happened is that the ATCOs have made more enemies, when they actually need friends who can influence people.

I just hope that the damage done can be repaired and sight gained of the real issue .... that Spain is going back to the dark days of the Franco years and the ATCOs are just pawns in that process.

[mary meagher]

In view of all the problems in Spain, BA might want to renegotiate that contract to merge with Iberia.....

How long exactly does it take to train up an ATC? where is this training available? If I were a Spanish family I would certainly recommend the career to my offspring - sorry, my son, a career of being a pilot is a non-starter, there are just too many pilots out there already. If your nerves are steady enough, opt for a career of controlling pilots instead!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<How long exactly does it take to train up an ATC? where is this training available?>>

Only a few days..... pull in any kid off the streets, give him a book to read then sit him in front of a radar at Heathrow. Bit like brain surgery really....

[songbird29]

PP wrote:

Its all about killing the Unions, flogging off the family jewels to raise cash, (yet retaining a controlling interest) and keeping the little man under the thumb.

The little man, you say. May controllers with an avarage income of € 300K in a country in economic distress be compared with little men? I don't think so. Better call them privileged men.

I have some understanding for an emotional reaction to the military takeover. But I have more understanding for the necesity of Zapatero c.s. to saveguard the economic interests of his country, in favour of the real little men in Spain. The country cannot afford to see its major industry being paralyzed by a small group who has refused to play down on its privileges.

[Denti]

By the way, as explained on this document, safety really is at stake in this situation, but maybe you have not heard of human factors, what a pity...

THis is a sad joke. As i mentioned in another thread, entering spain airspace in the best of times is a PAN PAN situaiton, exactly because of human factor issues and controller incompetence.

@10W, the new oh so bad conditions of spanish controllers are actually still better than the european norm for pilots. 1670 hours a year? Try 2000 for pilots, and we do reach it every year. Being on call 24/7 365 days a year is the norm for many pilots, days with no call out will be in hindsight relabled to fixed days off at base. Maternity leave, sick leave etc not being part of working time, well, welcome to the real world.

The only part we have that might be better, working time limits can only be changed by the european commission. But that is right now happening as well, and not for the better.

[Nimmer]

Denti,

We are talking about controllers working conditions not pilots. it is well known that controllers are harder working and most definitely more skilled than pilots.

How many planes are you responsible for??? Thats right only one, and there are 2 of you!!!!!!

Enough said.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Originally Posted by Nimmer

Denti,

We are talking about controllers working conditions not pilots. it is well known that controllers are harder working and most definitely more skilled than pilots.

How many planes are you responsible for??? Thats right only one, and there are 2 of you!!!!!!

Enough said.

Yes but they keep comparing their 1670 hours to everybody else.

Unfortunately your responsibility does not extend to my aeroplane. That responsibility is completely mine thank you. Your responsibility is to keep two little blips a certain distance apart. Something Spanish ATCOs regularly fail to do. Do you not have assistants and supervisors and another bloke on another headset monitoring you? How many does that make?

How hard is it to take a break every half an hour or when you get stressed. Something which I cannot do. Have you ever done a 20 hour duty? And then had to land, accurately, a 50+ tonne jet on a contaminated runway, in low visibility? No you haven't. Get back to your comfy wheeled chair in your air conditioned building and take another rest.

[Phalconphixer]

Its all about killing the Unions, flogging off the family jewels to raise cash, (yet retaining a controlling interest) and keeping the little man under the thumb.

The little man, you say. May controllers with an avarage income of € 300K in a country in economic distress be compared with little men? I don't think so. Better call them privileged men.

Songbird...Have you read any of the posts posted by the Spanish ATCOs in this thread?
Whilst there may be one or two who reached these high salaries, they did so through long hours of work at premium overtime rates, in order to meet the demands of the service and possibly not from choice. AENA decided to pay premium overtime rather than engage or train new controllers. That was their decision...

Spanish media and CNN+ is giving virtually continuous airplay to the government's spokespeople (Blanco and Rubalcaba) whilst the Union spokesman gets just 50 seconds...

I reiterate...

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and /or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion."

“Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.”

pp

[His dudeness]

Vinrouge the funny thing is that its not the IMF knocking on the Irish , Spanish or Portugeese door but dear old Merkel looking to ensure the greedy German banks dont have to write off the loans they made, out of greed . That is the foundation of the problem down here and in Ireland. The best thing we could do for ourselves is tell you guys to shove it and go back to the peseta , punt and Drachma and just devalue like as always was done and leave you holding your precious euro,, its just like a stone around our knecks now

Well done, you spotted the usual suspects. The Germans. Great. Well done.

Maybe you should throw us out of the EU. Coming to think of it, please do so.

I´m sick and tired of financing megalomanian projects in third world countries such as Spain. Go back and breed donkeys or whatever Spain made a living of before the EU.

[belk78]

atceuc.org - Air Traffic Controllers European Unions Coordination

[Lon More]

From LH2

If they are not controllers they must be supervising;
I have already commented on this. Please read what has been posted if you wish to reply.

So, what are they actually doing? Their very presence is intimidating.

I am not in a position to make such a judgement. May I know the basis for your assertion?

In ATC most of my career, controller, Training Officer, did a bit of development work, ended up a Supervisor at Maastricht UAC; it's in my profile.
What do you do? Do you actually work in aviation or journalism? Your profile is remarkably vague.

I would feel very concerned however, about having to fly in a sector under control of someone who needs intimidation to go to work. And no, it's not about the stress, it's about the lack of maturity shown by such a person. The former you can deal with, but the latter...

Stay out of the airspace. Until this us resolved IFALPA should red flag it and everybody stay away. Nobody NEEDS, or wants, intimidation to go to work and anyone put in that situation will not be providing a safe, expeditious service. The lack of maturity is shown by the persons who have decided to use a sledge-hammer to crack a nut.

I am genuinely interested to hear, Lon, about your experience visiting Spanish control centres and interacting with Spanish ATCOs,

Again read my profile. I worked in a multi-national environment, plenty of Spanish to talk to, also French, German, Dutch, Belgian, Greeks, even a couple of Brits so plenty of interaction there. Worked with Spanish Controllers on projects at Bretigny and visited a number of Centres when on Fam. Flights. I was appalled at the working conditions, equipment and salaries back in the 1970s and slowly saw them improve.

His Dudeness wrote

Go back and breed donkeys or whatever Spain made a living of before the EU.

another helpful comment.
The answer being to provide a training ground for somebody's Condor Legions perhaps?


edited to add - many peoples' perception, including a few here, of a controller still seems to be of the person waving two table tennis bats around. That takes a few weeks training. Even with the pared back training that today's controllers get it still takes in the region of three years from start to finish and IMHO does not produce as good a result.

[paidworker]

His Dudeness, Just as the majority of Germans did not want the euro , the vast majority of people here dont want the IMF, bailout or indeed the euro to stay. There is a hornets nest of contempt and often ignorance sometimes being stirred and directed at the controllers, the banks to whom money is owed just happen to be German Nothing would give the man on the street here greater pleasure than to default on the loans , but since the club is working to ensure that does not happen , Zappo and Blanco are working to make sure the public have a soft target , people like the controllers. Blanco will come to " our rescue " soon I am sure and announce they have sold off a chunk of AENA so that it can be " modernised to ensure that they are never inconvenience again " ..This morning the headline is " Blanco opens disciplinary proceedings against 500 controllers " , one presumes they will be allowed leave their post to attend their hearing ( under armed escort of course in case they are tempted to abscond ) ...he is quoted as saying " now we get to serve justice on these people "..I mean its like stuff that you would hear from Kim IL. only the mob applauds.

Irishpilot, there is a reason your location says the " back seat of your car ".

[BeT]

Paidworker: agree completely.

This whole collaboration of the state against controllers is disgusting - makes me think of some 3rd world country, not bloody Western Europe for Gods sakes.

[transilvana]

Security is not guarantee on Spain ATC

Please advise your airlines or operations department, this is not a threat, it´s a reality.

Spain Air traffic controller are working on ACC, APP and tower with a phisically gun aiming at their heads, they have been forced to sign a document where they are forced to be militarizied or face jail immediately, be judged under military rules for sedition . They are working under high stress and security is not guarantee.

This come from very close friends who are ATCO´s, today they already had some problems and as they tell me they can not guarantee it, they have told that to their labour union and military personnel present on towers, ACC and APP centers.

On my company we have decided not to overfly Spain ATC.

[ATC Watcher]

Translvana : First for info you want to say "Safety" not security, but that is a mis-translation from Spanish, "Securidad" is Safety in English in this context, not Security..
now you say :

Spain Air traffic controller are working on ACC, APP and tower with a phisically gun aiming at their heads

Can you tell us what your source is and in which facilities this occurred ? . Our information does not match this.
We are also very much concerned , but want to separate the facts from the rumors. You can PM me as well if you prefer .

[Denti]

the banks to whom money is owed just happen to be German

Care to check your facts? Outstanding bonds are held first and foremost by french banks (around 25%) then by BENELUX banks (around 13,5%) and then by german ones (around 7%). Asia and Africa hold round 19% while the rest of the EU holds around the same as BENELUX. In new bonds this year germany and austria combined only bought around 4,8%, behind spain with 34%, UK with 20,3%, Asia with 13,3%, Nordic countries with 6,2% and France and BENELUX each with 5%.

By the way, that information is from Dirección General del Tesoro y Política Financiera, not some foreign conspiracy theorist.

The answer being to provide a training ground for somebody's Condor Legions perhaps?

Not germans anymore, they are in the process of pretty much dismantling their whole military as they have no real need of it, anybody wishing a go at them needs to wade through the whole EU first anyway.