Spanish ATC
Flameproof is far too intelligent then, and his english too a high a standard to be a Spanish ATCO. Station calling?
Who gives a dam what the government need to do now, typical standard of intelligence I'd expect from a spanish ATCO to say using the military is illegal, but to do an unauthorised national strike with zero notice is perfectly fine.
Honestly you see this everyday, Spanish ATCO's think we're all stupid!
I would hate to have an emergency in spain. I have two examples of the service I'm talking about.
1. Had a pax with heart attack on stand and we call for an ambulance and they replied clearing us for push and start! You can't make it up that good!
2. Go around at 500 agl due to small tech problem on approach, I call going around, I get the standard 'station calling!' from them. Hard not to say, 'we the damm aircraft that just buzzed the tower!'
Best one my base captain had though, ask to maintain position inbound the IAF......painful, so very painful.
Who gives a dam what the government need to do now, typical standard of intelligence I'd expect from a spanish ATCO to say using the military is illegal, but to do an unauthorised national strike with zero notice is perfectly fine.
Honestly you see this everyday, Spanish ATCO's think we're all stupid!
I would hate to have an emergency in spain. I have two examples of the service I'm talking about.
1. Had a pax with heart attack on stand and we call for an ambulance and they replied clearing us for push and start! You can't make it up that good!
2. Go around at 500 agl due to small tech problem on approach, I call going around, I get the standard 'station calling!' from them. Hard not to say, 'we the damm aircraft that just buzzed the tower!'
Best one my base captain had though, ask to maintain position inbound the IAF......painful, so very painful.
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And you think that will improve with an ATC on 1500 euros a month? Im sure ATCOs coud talk about junior first officer tail strikes , trying to land on taxiaways or P2F unable to think outside the box / things going horribly wrong when having to disconnect the autopilot...list goes on.. However such tit for tat arguments would be next to useless. Enjoy paying for your water , uniform , rating , simcheck and getting 2 hours a month in return. Its amazing that many people think good pay and conditions is " draconian ".
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@AngeleToR:
First, thanks for a polite reply, and as a foreword, I am well aware that the government is using all this to divert public attention away from their incompetent handling of the huge crisis we are in, but that's as far as it goes - they present the facts in a way that suits their needs, but in the end, facts are facts.
To comment on your points:
From what I know, the government took the average hours you worked previous years, being 1670, and took this as the new base instead of the 1200 that were set in the 1999 agreement ('convenio'). They added an extra 80 voluntary hours on top just in case. Now, can you please answer, in order to clarify things:
- Did the government set 1670 + 80 = 1750 hours as the MAXIMUM you could work this year, meaning, they PROHIBITED you from doing any extra hours than this amount?
- Did you really do an average of 1670 hours the last few years, as has been said, where everything above 1200 hours was paid as overtime? If so, how can previous years have been covered with 1670 hours, but this year we fall two months short due to a much higher "rate of consumption" of hours?
Honestly, I think the issue is not just pay - there may be legitimate claims such as shift schedules etc., but with your actions you lost all right to those claims. However, we have not heard one single ATCO say "we would gladly give up our salaries based on overtime and hire 1000 controllers to make up the difference". As for the monthly wages, yes, I have seen one that totals 5.000€ for one month clean, gross was 10.000€. I have also seen this one:
http://www.cadenaser.com/csermedia/c..._2_Pes_PDF.pdf
which comes at 30.000€ gross, 16.500€ CLEAN. In 12 months, that is 360.000€ gross, or 198.000€ clean. And we're talking november 2010, so these are wages after the cuts made last February. This brings another question:
- Is it true that AENA is paying you the difference between the old salary and the new salary after the cuts, until you reach a new agreement with them? This is what Mr. Lema, AENA's director, said before the Senate.
These days, with modern radar and TCAS, it is quite unlikely. Also, the fact that you are now using strict adherence to SIDs and STARs makes it even less likely that something bad could happen. VFR flights are not allowed in TMAs or CTRs at big airports, so the problem of stray light planes is reduced in comparison with, say, London TMA. This brings another question:
- Do you still get your 33% time rest periods? Have they been reduced to 25%? What is the maximum straight time you are actually working before a radar console or at the tower?
I sincerely hope you resolve the problems, meaning that the government stops using the issue as a political pawn/smokescreen, and you admit that you have lived extremely privileged lives for many years, and that you're now willing to be sensible and come to reasonable terms. Admit your mistakes, show that you care and are "sorry" (can't find a good word to get the point across) and you will find the people will be willing to forgive you and go back to hating politicians.
@paidworker:
You resort to bickering attacks, which shows you have no good arguments:
I said I wanted to, but I didn't even try, so how could I fail? I was told both by a military controller with many years on the job, and by the son of an Iberia fleet commander, that you plugged people in at will, and controlled the admission process. If you got lucky and all friends & family had been "placed" and there were spots left, you could get in, but that it was rather unlikely. So, why even try? Question:
- Do you deny that USCA had control, at least a veto, over the admissions process, and thus could control how many controllers were hired?
- Do you deny that USCA, as part of the tribunal that judged applicants, had the power to admit friends & family, and deny entry to others?
It may be illegal - the legal system and laws of Spain are so screwed up, almost anything is possible. What is a fact is that your irresponsible act was illegal, and could land you anywhere between three and eleven years in jail.
Questions for you:
- Can you suggest how the situation may have been resolved, instead of threatening you with jail time?
- All the public knows is that that Friday evening, your USCA delegates presented a proposal to AENA which returned everything to 2009-like conditions, i.e. 1200 hours max, the rest hugely expensive overtime, etc. is this true?
- How could work have been done with 1670 hours in the past, and not this year? What has been different?
Instead of attacking back, answer the questions.
First, thanks for a polite reply, and as a foreword, I am well aware that the government is using all this to divert public attention away from their incompetent handling of the huge crisis we are in, but that's as far as it goes - they present the facts in a way that suits their needs, but in the end, facts are facts.
To comment on your points:
We made some simple sums this summer and saw that the maximum hours will be reached by the end of the year, and government said we were menacing with undeclared strikes. They let the problem rot until it wildly exploded, I say again, we are EXHAUSTED and thousands of lives depend on us and our good job (thanks god for the TCAS)... We are AFRAID of doing our job in our current conditions (physically and psychologically tired, many are menaced with jail and losing EVERY property they have, people HATES US thanks to our incompetent government).
- Did the government set 1670 + 80 = 1750 hours as the MAXIMUM you could work this year, meaning, they PROHIBITED you from doing any extra hours than this amount?
- Did you really do an average of 1670 hours the last few years, as has been said, where everything above 1200 hours was paid as overtime? If so, how can previous years have been covered with 1670 hours, but this year we fall two months short due to a much higher "rate of consumption" of hours?
OK, we deserve it because of what we have done, screwing everybody up and all that stuff... But honestly, do you believe that what we did is a rational reaction for a group of equilibrated people just forcing the government to earn 350.000€ instead of 200.000€??? It seems more a desperate measure of desperate people trying desperately to be heard, to stop all the madness we are living in from ten months now until it's too late and we all get really sorry about it. And please, forget about money once and for all, 5.000€ gross per month sums 60.000€, google a little and you will find scanned monthly wages proving it.
http://www.cadenaser.com/csermedia/c..._2_Pes_PDF.pdf
which comes at 30.000€ gross, 16.500€ CLEAN. In 12 months, that is 360.000€ gross, or 198.000€ clean. And we're talking november 2010, so these are wages after the cuts made last February. This brings another question:
- Is it true that AENA is paying you the difference between the old salary and the new salary after the cuts, until you reach a new agreement with them? This is what Mr. Lema, AENA's director, said before the Senate.
We are playing with human lives, nobody sees??? When finally the accident happens, as we are warning since months ago, let's guess who will end up in jail... Right, the ATCO!!! Because we have warned (menaced according gov.) about colliding two airplanes...
- Do you still get your 33% time rest periods? Have they been reduced to 25%? What is the maximum straight time you are actually working before a radar console or at the tower?
I sincerely hope you resolve the problems, meaning that the government stops using the issue as a political pawn/smokescreen, and you admit that you have lived extremely privileged lives for many years, and that you're now willing to be sensible and come to reasonable terms. Admit your mistakes, show that you care and are "sorry" (can't find a good word to get the point across) and you will find the people will be willing to forgive you and go back to hating politicians.
@paidworker:
You resort to bickering attacks, which shows you have no good arguments:
Flameproof, you wanted to be an air traffic controller but failed to get in.
- Do you deny that USCA had control, at least a veto, over the admissions process, and thus could control how many controllers were hired?
- Do you deny that USCA, as part of the tribunal that judged applicants, had the power to admit friends & family, and deny entry to others?
Regardless of the maths etc. etc. the point is now that the government is using the military in an illegal manner to force people to do their work
Questions for you:
- Can you suggest how the situation may have been resolved, instead of threatening you with jail time?
- All the public knows is that that Friday evening, your USCA delegates presented a proposal to AENA which returned everything to 2009-like conditions, i.e. 1200 hours max, the rest hugely expensive overtime, etc. is this true?
- How could work have been done with 1670 hours in the past, and not this year? What has been different?
Instead of attacking back, answer the questions.
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Flameproof, if an ATCO is on 10 or 20K a month so what. So what I say , it is because the union is good and there have been good tactical negotiations. Many unions should look to the one of the controllers for what they do right and what they do wrong. Without going into the nitty gritty i see it this way.. the Government stopped trying to negotiate and started to issue dictates but could not even manage to dictate correctly due to the hours shortfall. AENA did not want more controllers but instead wanted existing controllers to increase their hours and take pay cuts but in typical fashion felt that while they arranged lucrative contracts for each other that the workers would just sit about and take it. Laws were passed meaning the unions had no recourse of strike for the last year , civilians started trying to manage centers when they had no experience or idea what they were doing and the environment for many became a very difficult one to work in , money aside. AENA moved further away from a viable negotiating position when our politicians started to appear on television mocking the controllers creating an environment where the mob would be against them ( but keeping their mouth shut about their involment in private companies recieving state contracts ) . I do not agree for a moment with the wildcat strike but I do understand how it happened , it wasnt the extreme militant manouver that some people would have it portrayed , rather i think people just "snapped" pure and simple..the lid came of the pressure cooker...as torres as said the hungry mouse ate the cheese. I do not work as an ATCO but in aviation south of Madrid and earn about 10K a month , however that does not mean I am happy to take it in the ass be dictated to or roughly treated by my employer who " needs " me. Unlike the ATCOs I can be replaced , the ATCOs cant and that brings us to present day. Now the ATCOs have had time to calm down but the military rule is not lifted..why.. because the government " needs " the ATCOS , they were so short sighted and ill organised that they have no viable replacements for the people who will surely leave..there are head hunters all over Torejon gates from Asia with contracts for 300K for qualified senior controllers but it would be treason for the ATCO to take it now.. so AENA wants Blanco to extend the rule to " keep " them.. You see the government is the one in the weak position because while the supply of what they need is limited they have to pay the price demanded for it and if they want to break that pattern they have to create more supply... letting the military ATCOs civilian ratings expire 6 weeks ago was not a good start and gives you an idea of where they are at. When a working man has no right to strike in the state, there is something wrong with the state. Our taxes did not go down when times were good , they went up. Answer me this , why is it you think that military rule cant be lifted now and you have your answer ( It appears that despite the governments wishes it will be because more and more legal sources say its illegal ). Jealous people can moan and whine all they like but i think there are few of us who would not like to have enjoyed such a strong union and pay and benefits. In fact i would suggest to anybody moaning and groaning about them on the thread to state " I would refuse on moral grounds to work in a high paid job with a strong union. "
Last edited by paidworker; 10th Dec 2010 at 19:09.
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Originally Posted by Flameproof
What is a fact is that your irresponsible act was illegal, and could land you anywhere between three and eleven years in jail.
Questions for you:
- Can you suggest how the situation may have been resolved, instead of threatening you with jail time?
- All the public knows is that that Friday evening, your USCA delegates presented a proposal to AENA which returned everything to 2009-like conditions, i.e. 1200 hours max, the rest hugely expensive overtime, etc. is this true?
- How could work have been done with 1670 hours in the past, and not this year? What has been different?
Instead of attacking back, answer the questions.
Questions for you:
- Can you suggest how the situation may have been resolved, instead of threatening you with jail time?
- All the public knows is that that Friday evening, your USCA delegates presented a proposal to AENA which returned everything to 2009-like conditions, i.e. 1200 hours max, the rest hugely expensive overtime, etc. is this true?
- How could work have been done with 1670 hours in the past, and not this year? What has been different?
Instead of attacking back, answer the questions.
What is a fact is that your irresponsible act was illegal, and could land you anywhere between three and eleven years in jail
You are 100% correct here but I would like to point out the small issue of timing. Whatever the Atcos did (regardless of whether it was a collective industrial action or a genuine chain reaction) was legal untill friday 3rd at 21:30 local time, when the royal decree making it illegal was published. How can most of the Atco's actions not be illegal when we get a specific law?
Can you suggest how the situation may have been resolved, instead of threatening you with jail time?
All the public knows is that that Friday evening, your USCA delegates presented a proposal to AENA which returned everything to 2009-like conditions, i.e. 1200 hours max, the rest hugely expensive overtime, etc. is this true?
How could work have been done with 1670 hours in the past, and not this year? What has been different?
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@Del Prado:
Meaning what? I'm not talking about airproxes, but actual collisions between commercial aircraft under ATC control. You can get airproxes even while fully rested and earning a million euros an hour.
@Daermon ATC:
Thanks for your replies - they are not offensive at all, and in fact, provide useful information.
Leaving the ATC post is, at best, a "very grave fault" according to the 1999 agreement, and it can carry penalties up to being fired. Past this, a court can decide that the ATCO acted irresponsibly and/or negligently in leaving airspace unattended, in which case the act would be deemed illegal. What the 21:30 decree did was to put in the hands of the military the ATC mission normally carried out by AENA, and mentioned nothing about making the ATCOs actions illegal.
This was not the 'state of alarm' decree, which was declared hours later, and which is what prompted controllers to return, as they now faced military laws.
Coincidentally, at 21:12 the first NOTAM closing the airspace was published, until then it was not officially closed. Thus, a space between around 18:00 (when Eurocontrol first learned of the strike) and 21:00 exists where controllers were leaving, but airspace was left open with planes departing towards Spain, and this is what could constitute an illegal act.
Indeed - we all hope so! 
If it was considered as balanced by an arbiter then why is it not up on every forum and blog where controllers are trying to make their case? There are a lot of documents ATCOs could publish to make their points tangible, yet we just hear words, which right now, in the eyes of the public, count the same - if not less - than the government's.
That's a critical piece of information that I didn't know, and would explain controllers running out of hours sooner than in past years - is that in the decree itself, or just something planners did on their own?
You've got a short memory.
@Daermon ATC:
Thanks for your replies - they are not offensive at all, and in fact, provide useful information.
You are 100% correct here but I would like to point out the small issue of timing. Whatever the Atcos did (regardless of whether it was a collective industrial action or a genuine chain reaction) was legal untill friday 3rd at 21:30 local time, when the royal decree making it illegal was published. How can most of the Atco's actions not be illegal when we get a specific law?
This was not the 'state of alarm' decree, which was declared hours later, and which is what prompted controllers to return, as they now faced military laws.
Coincidentally, at 21:12 the first NOTAM closing the airspace was published, until then it was not officially closed. Thus, a space between around 18:00 (when Eurocontrol first learned of the strike) and 21:00 exists where controllers were leaving, but airspace was left open with planes departing towards Spain, and this is what could constitute an illegal act.
Since one only negotiates when you feel you have something to gain by doing so and something to loose if you don't, could be that both sides will now get back to the bargaining table, this time for real.
I have not seen that proposal but I don't believe a return to previous conditions would count as "ballanced"
However, whe the final law was made, someone got overzealous and barred all atcos aged 57+ to work.
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more ATC
What nobody explains is; HOW come there are no more ATC? (is it true ATC has Veto over everything? if it is, THAT is what you should had taken away government and not allow to come to this mess)
Is it incompetence from the government (I believe it, they ARE incompetent in everything else)
Do the Spanish ATC have anything to do with the shortage? (I believe it, in Spain there is a long history of corruption)
More ATC, less money that they have to pay per hour, more people employ, more rest, I just do not see the downfall, FOR THE PEOPLE, I see it for some greedy buster counting his money in a closet.
Is it incompetence from the government (I believe it, they ARE incompetent in everything else)
Do the Spanish ATC have anything to do with the shortage? (I believe it, in Spain there is a long history of corruption)
More ATC, less money that they have to pay per hour, more people employ, more rest, I just do not see the downfall, FOR THE PEOPLE, I see it for some greedy buster counting his money in a closet.
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As I have said plenty of times, I couldn't care less how much a French, British, Italian, Czech, Croatian, Slovenian, etc., etc. controller gets paid. The more the better as far as I'm concerned: they deserve it.
On the other hand, when it comes to the bulk of Spanish controllers, it is appalling that they should be in the business at all, regardless of any monies made.
As usual, obligatory apologies to the few Spanish controllers who are worth their salt.
The royal decree in february used the 1750 hours figure probably calculated by Aena as the hours they would need. However, whe the final law was made, someone got overzealous and barred all atcos aged 57+ to work. This caused that all other controllers had to make huge amounts of hours during the summer.
This may of course be nothing else but a malicious, long running rumour--I recall having a conversation about it in 2007. I wonder if there is a place where one can get some stats on how many flights/hr controllers handle in different parts of Europe/World.
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Apologies to non spanish speakers. The links I provide are to the Official State Bulletin where all spanish laws are published.
It was not in the original decree but on the law made later to ratify it. Here is the link, read the "Disposición adicional cuarta", second paragraph (or just use the search function to look up "57")
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/04/1...-2010-5983.pdf
This is the link to the Aerial Safety Law published 2003.
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2003/07/0...6368-26387.pdf
Article 34.4 states that it is the duty of aeronautical personell to refrain to perform said duties (as laid out in the previous points of that article) in case of a reduction of the physical and psychological abilities needed to perform them.
I am told that atcos did not simply "walk away" but rather informed their superiors that they were not in a psychological state to work. Considering the situation since february, I wouldn't necessarilly consider this a fake. My personal opinion is that several did genuinely feel sick and that several others "jumped in" thinking that the previous ones were performing some industrial action but I do not have any information to back up this impression.
In any case the government tacitly acknowledged that their action was legal as the legal decree published the 3rd at 21:30 changes the letter of the aforementioned law. Read the "Disposición adicional segunda", second point.
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/12/0...2010-18651.pdf
I can't personally validate or refute this rumor but based on what others have told me I would consider at least the second part of your claim ("opening extra sectors not for any justifiable operational reason, but in order to make overtime") to be true.
However this is only true till 5th of february 2010 as the royal decree 1/2010 (article 2.2) puts staffing, sectoring and any other related activity firmly in the hands of Aena. It also prohibits them explicitly to delegate these functions (article 2.3).
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/02/0...-2010-1916.pdf
Quote:
However, whe the final law was made, someone got overzealous and barred all atcos aged 57+ to work.
That's a critical piece of information that I didn't know, and would explain controllers running out of hours sooner than in past years - is that in the decree itself, or just something planners did on their own?
However, whe the final law was made, someone got overzealous and barred all atcos aged 57+ to work.
That's a critical piece of information that I didn't know, and would explain controllers running out of hours sooner than in past years - is that in the decree itself, or just something planners did on their own?
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/04/1...-2010-5983.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daermon ATC
Whatever the Atcos did (regardless of whether it was a collective industrial action or a genuine chain reaction) was legal untill friday 3rd at 21:30 local time
I understand that not to be the case, given that provision of an essential public service was effectively discontinued (which is the basis under the Spanish penal code for the charges of sedition being mentioned days ago).
Originally Posted by Daermon ATC
Whatever the Atcos did (regardless of whether it was a collective industrial action or a genuine chain reaction) was legal untill friday 3rd at 21:30 local time
I understand that not to be the case, given that provision of an essential public service was effectively discontinued (which is the basis under the Spanish penal code for the charges of sedition being mentioned days ago).
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2003/07/0...6368-26387.pdf
Article 34.4 states that it is the duty of aeronautical personell to refrain to perform said duties (as laid out in the previous points of that article) in case of a reduction of the physical and psychological abilities needed to perform them.
I am told that atcos did not simply "walk away" but rather informed their superiors that they were not in a psychological state to work. Considering the situation since february, I wouldn't necessarilly consider this a fake. My personal opinion is that several did genuinely feel sick and that several others "jumped in" thinking that the previous ones were performing some industrial action but I do not have any information to back up this impression.
In any case the government tacitly acknowledged that their action was legal as the legal decree published the 3rd at 21:30 changes the letter of the aforementioned law. Read the "Disposición adicional segunda", second point.
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/12/0...2010-18651.pdf
This brings up an interesting point. Over the years I have heard persistent rumours (and I emphasise) of a curious practice by AENA controllers consisting of showing up to work on rest days and opening extra sectors not for any justifiable operational reason, but in order to make overtime.
However this is only true till 5th of february 2010 as the royal decree 1/2010 (article 2.2) puts staffing, sectoring and any other related activity firmly in the hands of Aena. It also prohibits them explicitly to delegate these functions (article 2.3).
http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/02/0...-2010-1916.pdf
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@Del Prado:
First, it's 'Flameproof'. Second, I know about Überlingen, the Tupolev was bound for Barcelona, and the case had a big media impact here. My point was that the picture of doom & gloom painted by controllers in Spain, where it would seem that a mid-air can occur any minute now, is FAR from the truth. First, because ATCOs work, more or less hours, but they have their rest periods, so it's not like they spend 12 hours straight glued to the station. Second, because we have MANY safety features that can prevent a mid-air.
On the particular accident you mention, the ATCO was probably the LEAST at fault, as there was maintenance work keeping radar on fallback mode (12 second updates), the visual proximity alert was not operational but aural was, and the phone lines were also down for maintenance, leaving one single fallback line which was malfunctioning, and prevented other ATC centers warning the controller on duty. The controller was also working two stations, something prohibited by regulations.
The accident would have been prevented had both pilots complied with the TCAS RA, which instructed the Tupolev to climb and the 757 to descend. The controller only managed to give a descend instruction to the Tupolev, and its crew ignored the RA (contrary to the Tupolev FOM which clearly stated TCAS RA to be strictly followed and ATC ignored) and descended as instructed. The 757 crew followed the descend RA and thus the collision took place. The reasoning behind the rule to follow TCAS RAs is precisely that they are automated and at best can result in an evasive maneuver for a collision that wasn't going to take place anyhow, whereas the instructions given by a controller could be misguided by his judgement or technical issues.
Thus, at fault were the Tupolev crew, and the operator of the ATC center, Skyguide. The ATCO was sadly murdered two years later by a man who lost his family in the crash.
As for your questioning of my background, I have an Aeronautical Engineering degree, and a private pilot's license. As part of a work experience program, I sat beside ATCOs for many hours, both in radar and tower duties. I frequently listen in on local control frequencies, so I am familiar with the local airspace and operations. During the close to eight years I lived in the UK, I flew back and forth to Spain some 10 times a year, and almost always riding the jumpseat (sadly 9/11 has changed this forever) - this apart from my own experiences flying light aircraft.
As I have already written, being a new member in a forum does not preclude one from posting on topics, does it? Imagine Albert Einstein joining a physics forum for the first time, and on his first post, dismantling someone's theory on subatomic particles. "Hey, you're new here, you have only just joined and this is your first post, leave this topic to professionals!".
May I ask what is your background and specific expertise in ATC?
@Daermon ATC:
Thanks for the extra info and links to the BOE PDFs. Just a comment:
I can understand if a -few- controllers walked away after reporting medical or psychological reasons that prevented them from doing their job (they would be completely right in doing this). This is one of the reasons why some ATCOs are placed on call while off-premises and off-duty, eg. at home etc. (this counts as having worked 20% of the on-call time). The normal course of action would have been to activate these reserves who would fill in the missing posts, but in fact 440 controllers walked off. About 100 of them assembled in a hotel near Madrid airport, which is something you don't do if you feel sick - you go to a hospital or you go home.
First, it's 'Flameproof'. Second, I know about Überlingen, the Tupolev was bound for Barcelona, and the case had a big media impact here. My point was that the picture of doom & gloom painted by controllers in Spain, where it would seem that a mid-air can occur any minute now, is FAR from the truth. First, because ATCOs work, more or less hours, but they have their rest periods, so it's not like they spend 12 hours straight glued to the station. Second, because we have MANY safety features that can prevent a mid-air.
On the particular accident you mention, the ATCO was probably the LEAST at fault, as there was maintenance work keeping radar on fallback mode (12 second updates), the visual proximity alert was not operational but aural was, and the phone lines were also down for maintenance, leaving one single fallback line which was malfunctioning, and prevented other ATC centers warning the controller on duty. The controller was also working two stations, something prohibited by regulations.
The accident would have been prevented had both pilots complied with the TCAS RA, which instructed the Tupolev to climb and the 757 to descend. The controller only managed to give a descend instruction to the Tupolev, and its crew ignored the RA (contrary to the Tupolev FOM which clearly stated TCAS RA to be strictly followed and ATC ignored) and descended as instructed. The 757 crew followed the descend RA and thus the collision took place. The reasoning behind the rule to follow TCAS RAs is precisely that they are automated and at best can result in an evasive maneuver for a collision that wasn't going to take place anyhow, whereas the instructions given by a controller could be misguided by his judgement or technical issues.
Thus, at fault were the Tupolev crew, and the operator of the ATC center, Skyguide. The ATCO was sadly murdered two years later by a man who lost his family in the crash.
As for your questioning of my background, I have an Aeronautical Engineering degree, and a private pilot's license. As part of a work experience program, I sat beside ATCOs for many hours, both in radar and tower duties. I frequently listen in on local control frequencies, so I am familiar with the local airspace and operations. During the close to eight years I lived in the UK, I flew back and forth to Spain some 10 times a year, and almost always riding the jumpseat (sadly 9/11 has changed this forever) - this apart from my own experiences flying light aircraft.
As I have already written, being a new member in a forum does not preclude one from posting on topics, does it? Imagine Albert Einstein joining a physics forum for the first time, and on his first post, dismantling someone's theory on subatomic particles. "Hey, you're new here, you have only just joined and this is your first post, leave this topic to professionals!".
May I ask what is your background and specific expertise in ATC?
@Daermon ATC:
Thanks for the extra info and links to the BOE PDFs. Just a comment:
I am told that atcos did not simply "walk away" but rather informed their superiors that they were not in a psychological state to work. Considering the situation since february, I wouldn't necessarilly consider this a fake.
hi flameproof,
apologies for getting your name wrong and thanks for the compehensive run down on Uberlingen.
I'm surprised it wasn't at the forefront of your mind when you posted,
Thinking back to that incident and the tragic events that followed, I don't think it's at all helpful to have the frenzy that has been whipped up against the Spanish ATCOs in the media.
you can also get airproxes while fatigued and earning 50 euros an hour. When do you think airproxes are more likely to happen?
There's surely more chance of an airprox when ATCOs are forced to work longer hours, under worse terms and conditions and 'militarised' under threat of jail? IFATCA clearly think so.
Not sure your comparison is valid.
Aeronautical engineering degree and general aviation interest is very impressive but not quite up there with Einstein. I've had many people listen in to me on work experience and I'm in doubt as to how much information they would have gleaned to contribute to a similar debate.
Your posts seem to be well researched rehashings of articles already published in the media and online. I was hoping someone that was taking such a lead in this debate would be able to provide new facts and inside information.
ATCO in London. Never worked (as an ATCO) in Spain.
apologies for getting your name wrong and thanks for the compehensive run down on Uberlingen.
I'm surprised it wasn't at the forefront of your mind when you posted,
These days, with modern radar and TCAS, (a mid air collision) is quite unlikely
You can get airproxes even while fully rested and earning a million euros an hour.
There's surely more chance of an airprox when ATCOs are forced to work longer hours, under worse terms and conditions and 'militarised' under threat of jail? IFATCA clearly think so.
Given the duress under which our Spanish colleagues are forced to work, IFATCA declares that the safety of Spanish airspace and airports is severely
compromised while this military rule is in force.
compromised while this military rule is in force.
Imagine Albert Einstein joining a physics forum for the first time, and on his first post, dismantling someone's theory on subatomic particles. "Hey, you're new here, you have only just joined and this is your first post, leave this topic to professionals!".
Aeronautical engineering degree and general aviation interest is very impressive but not quite up there with Einstein. I've had many people listen in to me on work experience and I'm in doubt as to how much information they would have gleaned to contribute to a similar debate.
Your posts seem to be well researched rehashings of articles already published in the media and online. I was hoping someone that was taking such a lead in this debate would be able to provide new facts and inside information.
May I ask what is your background and specific expertise in ATC?
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Originally Posted by Del Prado
I'm surprised it wasn't at the forefront of your mind when you posted,
Quote:
These days, with modern radar and TCAS, (a mid air collision) is quite unlikely
Quote:
These days, with modern radar and TCAS, (a mid air collision) is quite unlikely
- Did the controller have at his disposal a modern radar? No, he had a fallback system, 12-second updates, and no integrated flight plan data into his display [pages 36-39 of the accident report]
- Did the pilots follow TCAS advisories? No, the Tupolev's pilot chose to obey the controller over what his TCAS was telling him, which was a major factor in the outcome, and contrary to procedure.
- Was the controller working under a lot of stress, particularly once he realized he was facing a possible mid-air? Indeed, as he was alone, had no working phone lines, and had no working visual SCTA [pages 39-41].
- Did other facilities, with adequate radar systems, enough staff, and working phone lines, try repeatedly to contact Zurich in order to warn the controller of the impending collision? Yes, they did. Karlsruhe had an SCTA alarm, and called eleven times via the direct phone connection (which was not working at Zurich due to maintenance). [page 44].
None of what I said was met at Überlingen, so I fail to see how you can compare that situation with what is going on in Spain right now, where staffing levels are at record highs, sick leaves at record lows, and traffic delays minimal. This comes from "insider information" that you seem to care so much about (I do have contacts, you know...), but if you want media coverage, here it is too:
Los controladores, una semana después del paro masivo: "Somos civiles, no etarras" - 20minutos.es - El medio social
Let me translate a money quote for you:
"El portavoz del sindicato USCA, César Cabo, opina que trabajan "bastante mejor" bajo las órdenes del Ejército que de la gestora aeroportuaria."
"The USCA union's spokesman, César Cabo, believes that they [the controllers] are working "much better" under the military's orders than under the company management."
Another:
´Trabajamos mejor con los militares´ - La Provincia - Diario de Las Palmas
One controller is quoted as saying he was coerced by others into turning an aircraft ready for departure around and back to the terminal. This ties in with my direct observation, by listening to ATC all night until 01:00Z, that controllers were deliberately making things difficult. I have posted about this before, so I won't plaster it here again.
Thinking back to that incident and the tragic events that followed, I don't think it's at all helpful to have the frenzy that has been whipped up against the Spanish ATCOs in the media.
There's surely more chance of an airprox when ATCOs are forced to work longer hours, under worse terms and conditions and 'militarised' under threat of jail? IFATCA clearly think so.
Quote:
Given the duress under which our Spanish colleagues are forced to work, IFATCA declares that the safety of Spanish airspace and airports is severely
compromised while this military rule is in force.
Quote:
Given the duress under which our Spanish colleagues are forced to work, IFATCA declares that the safety of Spanish airspace and airports is severely
compromised while this military rule is in force.
They were simply told go back to work or face military laws. It's that simple. They don't have a gun to their head, nor they ever did, they just have a few military in each center making sure people are on time, schedules are kept, etc. You accuse me of simply regurgitating press coverage, and you go and believe a note written by a union?
The IFATCA note seems to have been redacted by a USCA representative, and it's even more poignant than the usual USCA-speak. Cross-union support is to be expected, you have exactly opposite statements by associations of airport service providers, etc.
Not sure your comparison is valid.
Aeronautical engineering degree and general aviation interest is very impressive but not quite up there with Einstein.
Aeronautical engineering degree and general aviation interest is very impressive but not quite up there with Einstein.
The point being that you have NO idea who I am, what experience I have, what connections I have, and so on, yet you are quick to dismiss my posts based on the fact that I just joined and started posting. I did not intend to compare myself with Einstein, but merely make the point that not all bright heads and experts are on this forum from day one and have 1000s of posts. I'm sure there are people out there so much more knowledgeable and intelligent that you and I who are not posting here. My point was don't judge someone by being a new forum member, but by his posts and content.
I've had many people listen in to me on work experience and I'm in doubt as to how much information they would have gleaned to contribute to a similar debate.
Your posts seem to be well researched rehashings of articles already published in the media and online. I was hoping someone that was taking such a lead in this debate would be able to provide new facts and inside information.
As an ATCO in London, you are bound to have less information than I do, not more. For starters, you don't have a plug on LECB's frequencies, and I happen to live a few miles away from the control center - so I'm hearing first hand what is going on.
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Pitotheat and others,
What you are describing is a dynamc environment.
The ATC system works around a basic plan.
Yes it does take differing times to dipatch an aircraft.
A plan based on normal assumptions!
We rely on your ESTIMATES. If your estimates suddenly change then that is your problem...slot of 2000...we have late pasengers, unserviceability, blah, blah...
Pilots are extremely good at (trying to) bring other people down...and that is your bane. Your conditions are going the same way as your attitude!
There are too many people wanting to "track direct".
Your ego is your detriment!
"How dare he say that"..."More fool you".
What you are describing is a dynamc environment.
The ATC system works around a basic plan.
Yes it does take differing times to dipatch an aircraft.
A plan based on normal assumptions!
We rely on your ESTIMATES. If your estimates suddenly change then that is your problem...slot of 2000...we have late pasengers, unserviceability, blah, blah...
Pilots are extremely good at (trying to) bring other people down...and that is your bane. Your conditions are going the same way as your attitude!
There are too many people wanting to "track direct".
Your ego is your detriment!
"How dare he say that"..."More fool you".
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@megustalavida:
You need to get serious. I'm not a frustrated office guy, if you read my previous posts you'd know that by now. What I can tell from yours is that you have a very short sight.
If 440 ATCOs leave their posts en-masse, falsely claiming to be ill (they were all seen assembling in nearby hotels, and not looking particularly ill by eyewitness accounts), after having already walked out of one control center a few days earlier, given several warnings that they were going to strike, and shoving an agreement in the government's face that returned controllers to previous outrageous conditions, then handing over the service to the military was the least of the problems.
Tell me - what should the government have done? Tell me! All of you whiners keep crying and complaining, but you don't give A SOLUTION. How do you make controllers return to their posts after they walk out en-masse? If the excuse was that they ran out of ours, what do you do, pull more hours out of your a**? Noooo, you say "hey, I'll pay you 1000€ an hour overtime, and buy you a new Ferrari, is that OK? Can you go back to work now?". Then, I guess ATCOs would all get much better thank you very much, and all go back to doing 1800 hours a year like THEY HAVE BEEN DOING SINCE 1999.
Because, if the problem was that ATCOs had ran out of hours, and were over-stressed, there is NO WAY to fix it!!! Unless you can magically invent ATCOs, how do you solve the problem? Can you answer the question?
You need to get serious. I'm not a frustrated office guy, if you read my previous posts you'd know that by now. What I can tell from yours is that you have a very short sight.
If 440 ATCOs leave their posts en-masse, falsely claiming to be ill (they were all seen assembling in nearby hotels, and not looking particularly ill by eyewitness accounts), after having already walked out of one control center a few days earlier, given several warnings that they were going to strike, and shoving an agreement in the government's face that returned controllers to previous outrageous conditions, then handing over the service to the military was the least of the problems.
Tell me - what should the government have done? Tell me! All of you whiners keep crying and complaining, but you don't give A SOLUTION. How do you make controllers return to their posts after they walk out en-masse? If the excuse was that they ran out of ours, what do you do, pull more hours out of your a**? Noooo, you say "hey, I'll pay you 1000€ an hour overtime, and buy you a new Ferrari, is that OK? Can you go back to work now?". Then, I guess ATCOs would all get much better thank you very much, and all go back to doing 1800 hours a year like THEY HAVE BEEN DOING SINCE 1999.
Because, if the problem was that ATCOs had ran out of hours, and were over-stressed, there is NO WAY to fix it!!! Unless you can magically invent ATCOs, how do you solve the problem? Can you answer the question?
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Because, if the problem was that ATCOs had ran out of hours, and were over-stressed, there is NO WAY to fix it!!! Unless you can magically invent ATCOs, how do you solve the problem? Can you answer the question?
Flameproof, ATCO training varies from unit to unit. At my unit they don't listen in, that wastes money, they do some sim time and then plug in and get on with it. Having an airband radio does not make you an expert and you have so amply proved. Thank you and good night.
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@terrain safe:
Er... are you agreeing with me, or being ironic? Because I have been saying that the only way to get ATCOs to get back to their posts, after they had walked away en-masse, was to threaten them with a stick so big they would have second thoughts. In fact, the first stick which was to turn ATC to military's oversight wasn't big enough (this was Friday at 21:30h), and they had to get the bigger one of "state of alarm" which made all ATCOs military personnel (this was during Saturday morning), and thus placed them under military law; only then did they go back to work. It appears things are running much better now (no pun, I'm being serious).
If anyone has a better answer...
OK, so at your unit you take someone that comes from the street, and stick them in front of a sim, hand them a headset, and say "here you go lad, get going". When his maggots all wonder off the scope (to use Bill Gunston's words), you point him to a manual page, and let him sort things out all by himself. Let me get this right - your new recruits don't ever observe how things are done, but are thrown right into the action on a simulator?
Ahem *cough*. Teaching is done first by explanation and example, with the pupil paying attention, writing notes, observing. Then, it is completed by supervised practice. What you describe is probably what you do with an ATCO that changes position, am I right? Otherwise, please tell me what unit you work at, because there's no way I'm flying near it.
Your condescending tone is the same used by everyone bashing those who are critic with spanish ATCOs, rather than give sensible answers, try to discredit and tarnish the critic. Does the 'ATCO' tag on your profile make you an "expert"? Really? I don't just have an airband radio, I'm an aeronautical engineer, I have a pilot's license, several years flying in UK and Spanish airspace, and three years sitting next to radar and tower controllers an average of two days a week for 4-5 hours at a time. I guess I've seen some 1.500 hours of controller time, that of course doesn't make me an expert, but it makes me someone who can talk about the subject while knowing what I'm talking about. But maybe I'm wrong, oh master of all ATC knowledge.
This is the third time someone on the forum attacks my background and labels it as 'worthless' to be discussing the subject at hand. I must be hitting some sore points...
The answer was posted above. Change the number of hours and get the military involved. I would suggest the military weren't there to count the pencils, there are there to ensure that the new military regulations were complied with, however that may be done.
If anyone has a better answer...
Flameproof, ATCO training varies from unit to unit. At my unit they don't listen in, that wastes money, they do some sim time and then plug in and get on with it. Having an airband radio does not make you an expert and you have so amply proved. Thank you and good night.
Ahem *cough*. Teaching is done first by explanation and example, with the pupil paying attention, writing notes, observing. Then, it is completed by supervised practice. What you describe is probably what you do with an ATCO that changes position, am I right? Otherwise, please tell me what unit you work at, because there's no way I'm flying near it.
Your condescending tone is the same used by everyone bashing those who are critic with spanish ATCOs, rather than give sensible answers, try to discredit and tarnish the critic. Does the 'ATCO' tag on your profile make you an "expert"? Really? I don't just have an airband radio, I'm an aeronautical engineer, I have a pilot's license, several years flying in UK and Spanish airspace, and three years sitting next to radar and tower controllers an average of two days a week for 4-5 hours at a time. I guess I've seen some 1.500 hours of controller time, that of course doesn't make me an expert, but it makes me someone who can talk about the subject while knowing what I'm talking about. But maybe I'm wrong, oh master of all ATC knowledge.
This is the third time someone on the forum attacks my background and labels it as 'worthless' to be discussing the subject at hand. I must be hitting some sore points...
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So there we go again - this from, reading your tags and prior posts, someone who is an ATCO in Seville, and last April expressed an interest in applying for a job at DFS. I guess conditions in Seville are not what they used to be...
Read this loud and clear:
I DON'T WANT ATCOs TO GO TO JAIL AND DIE. I DON'T WANT THEM TO HAVE TO PAY HUGE FINES. I DON'T WANT THEM RIDICULED, INSULTED OR THREATENED BY THE PUBLIC.
What I DO want:
1. ATCOs and USCA, their union, to admit they lived in very privileged conditions thanks to the 1999 agreement. Then, provide a credible path to a normal arrangement, in accordance with what is the norm and average in the rest of Europe.
2. ATCOs and USCA to admit that they were doing 1800 hours a year, with 600 of those hours paid at huge premiums. Then, to explain why this year they cannot get the same job done with 70 more controllers (read AENA's 2009 consolidated report, where over 70 controllers were added to the roster).
3. ATCOs and USCA to stop setting up hidden strikes, and actually announce they will go on strike, when and how, like everyone else does. People are tired of booking flights while having a Damocles' sword over their heads. ATCOs are holding the sword, by the way.
These are just basic issues - if ATCOs and USCA had done things right, the public wrath would be directed to the government, who so badly miss-managed the whole thing (I have also said this again and again). If I had a say in this, I would make USCA's heads, and minister Blanco resign, along with a few directors at AENA, and let new blood take over and make things work. It seems you are all so hard-headed in your positions, I understand it is hard to give up such good conditions, but you cannot live in an ivory tower forever.
Read this loud and clear:
I DON'T WANT ATCOs TO GO TO JAIL AND DIE. I DON'T WANT THEM TO HAVE TO PAY HUGE FINES. I DON'T WANT THEM RIDICULED, INSULTED OR THREATENED BY THE PUBLIC.
What I DO want:
1. ATCOs and USCA, their union, to admit they lived in very privileged conditions thanks to the 1999 agreement. Then, provide a credible path to a normal arrangement, in accordance with what is the norm and average in the rest of Europe.
2. ATCOs and USCA to admit that they were doing 1800 hours a year, with 600 of those hours paid at huge premiums. Then, to explain why this year they cannot get the same job done with 70 more controllers (read AENA's 2009 consolidated report, where over 70 controllers were added to the roster).
3. ATCOs and USCA to stop setting up hidden strikes, and actually announce they will go on strike, when and how, like everyone else does. People are tired of booking flights while having a Damocles' sword over their heads. ATCOs are holding the sword, by the way.
These are just basic issues - if ATCOs and USCA had done things right, the public wrath would be directed to the government, who so badly miss-managed the whole thing (I have also said this again and again). If I had a say in this, I would make USCA's heads, and minister Blanco resign, along with a few directors at AENA, and let new blood take over and make things work. It seems you are all so hard-headed in your positions, I understand it is hard to give up such good conditions, but you cannot live in an ivory tower forever.
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You are right, working conditions are not what they used to be. Not everything is about money mate. Should i have here what my colleagues out there have i wouldn´t express any interest don´t you think?
Atcos were not doing 1800 hours, just some of them. Hours over 1200 were paid very well, the company wanted it that way so they didn´t have to hire more people. I know you know you are lying, i only wonder why.
Atcos were not doing 1800 hours, just some of them. Hours over 1200 were paid very well, the company wanted it that way so they didn´t have to hire more people. I know you know you are lying, i only wonder why.
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Flameproof,
Do this to ATCOs and USCA, do that to ATCOs and USCA, and what shall we do to the management?
AFAIK the 1999 "agreement" benefited both ATCOs and management. Well paid extras to ATCOs and cheap cover up of lacking controllers to management. You do know that it was cheaper to pay those extras than recruiting new controllers, don't you?
Do this to ATCOs and USCA, do that to ATCOs and USCA, and what shall we do to the management?
AFAIK the 1999 "agreement" benefited both ATCOs and management. Well paid extras to ATCOs and cheap cover up of lacking controllers to management. You do know that it was cheaper to pay those extras than recruiting new controllers, don't you?