Spanish ATC
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And many don't want to understand....
Let's try again.
The Spanish Governemnet have sent in the Military to SUPERVISE or GUARD, if you like, the air traffic control installations and staff. The Military Controllers will not be directly active. This will give the Government direct control/supervision of the civilian air traffic controllers.
The Ministerial Council tomorrow will further increase the supervision/control by declaring a State of Alarm, which will give the Government far reaching powers to require the civilian air traffic controllers to report to work, which if they refuse will be prosecuted under the exceptional powers of the State of Alaram.
The Madrid Public Prosecutor is collecting evidence of the wild cat strike and if this evidence supports his cause, he will charge the Air Traffic Controllers, who abandoned their posts and those that did not report for duty or refused to work, with Sedition or if you wish Subversive Acts. The group of about 100 controllers meeting at the Hotel Auditorium close to Madrid Airport, since about 1700hrs this afternoon when they abandoned their posts and closed all air traffic in Spain, have been required to identify themsleves by the Guardia Civil.
Let's try again.
The Spanish Governemnet have sent in the Military to SUPERVISE or GUARD, if you like, the air traffic control installations and staff. The Military Controllers will not be directly active. This will give the Government direct control/supervision of the civilian air traffic controllers.
The Ministerial Council tomorrow will further increase the supervision/control by declaring a State of Alarm, which will give the Government far reaching powers to require the civilian air traffic controllers to report to work, which if they refuse will be prosecuted under the exceptional powers of the State of Alaram.
The Madrid Public Prosecutor is collecting evidence of the wild cat strike and if this evidence supports his cause, he will charge the Air Traffic Controllers, who abandoned their posts and those that did not report for duty or refused to work, with Sedition or if you wish Subversive Acts. The group of about 100 controllers meeting at the Hotel Auditorium close to Madrid Airport, since about 1700hrs this afternoon when they abandoned their posts and closed all air traffic in Spain, have been required to identify themsleves by the Guardia Civil.
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Andrijander:
"Excuse the "shouting" but your argument is twisted and I see it repeated everywhere."
That is because you guys have a PR problem. Today's episode wont improve your ratings, I am afraid.
As I stated in an earlier post, USCA (Spanish ATC union) did not do such a bad job earlier this year when trying to get their viewpoints across to the general public which had grown accustomed to your periodical, strategically planned real strikes. Given the economic times we are in, it is a difficult job to explain to a country with a 20% unemployment rate and a minimal wage established at some € 8,800/year, that the roughly 2,500 ATC personnel making an average of € 350,000/year are unfairly treated.
Today was simply 'one bridge too far'. There was no strike today, just a kneejerk reaction of abandoning their jobs which very likely will have grave consequences, not only for their cause, but also for their future.
"Some people even had been granted a reduced working time (=less money too, you know?) to take care of their kids or sick relatives."
Are you aware of the fact that many medical operations, some very urgent, have had to be cancelled all over Spain, and possible beyond, because of Spanish ATC's walk-out today?
"Or you're to say that people traveling this weekend are more important than people traveling any other, not universally calendar marked, date?"
More important, no. More number of people, yes.
"were do you draw the line between workers rights and other rights? (freedom of movement in this case, but who knows what next?)"
You have a right to go on strike. You do NOT have a right to abandon your work unannounced over made-up medical reasons. Because THAT is what happened today. There was no strike announcement, ATC simply left their jobs. And a collective of 'just' 2,500 certainly does not have the right to collectively abandon their work, thereby causing MASSIVE chaos all over Spain and virtually paralize it, at a time when other parts of Europe are coping with considerable weather issues. If you cannot see that then I am afraid that the quality of Spanish ATC is far worse than discussed elsewhere on this board, presuming you are a Spanish ATC, that is.
"But rumour has it that those figures were not what controllers earned, but how much those controllers cost to the company (so not the home take pay, but added tax, training costs, admin costs and even the electricity and heating bill of the facilities were they work amongst others). Fact? I do not know, but given that the government had an agenda, I'd be very careful about what they say. "
Perhaps you can enlighten us and give us the real data, preferably with a link to a credible source.
Indigopete
"But if 99% of a workforce are able to co-ordinate themselves to effectively bring their operation to a halt en masse, then maybe they have a point to make and maybe we should listen to them. They clearly haven't been up until now."
I am sorry but I don't buy it. If the new working conditions for ATC are such a risk for passenger safety as they claim, there would have been much more subtle and effective ways for them to get their message across to the general public and thus, put pressure on their negotiation partners. It is also not the first time that they deny to do their jobs over bogus medical reason, though not at such a massive scale as today, causing considerable delays. Earlier this year they did it while their union was in negotiations with AENA.
"Excuse the "shouting" but your argument is twisted and I see it repeated everywhere."
That is because you guys have a PR problem. Today's episode wont improve your ratings, I am afraid.
As I stated in an earlier post, USCA (Spanish ATC union) did not do such a bad job earlier this year when trying to get their viewpoints across to the general public which had grown accustomed to your periodical, strategically planned real strikes. Given the economic times we are in, it is a difficult job to explain to a country with a 20% unemployment rate and a minimal wage established at some € 8,800/year, that the roughly 2,500 ATC personnel making an average of € 350,000/year are unfairly treated.
Today was simply 'one bridge too far'. There was no strike today, just a kneejerk reaction of abandoning their jobs which very likely will have grave consequences, not only for their cause, but also for their future.
"Some people even had been granted a reduced working time (=less money too, you know?) to take care of their kids or sick relatives."
Are you aware of the fact that many medical operations, some very urgent, have had to be cancelled all over Spain, and possible beyond, because of Spanish ATC's walk-out today?
"Or you're to say that people traveling this weekend are more important than people traveling any other, not universally calendar marked, date?"
More important, no. More number of people, yes.
"were do you draw the line between workers rights and other rights? (freedom of movement in this case, but who knows what next?)"
You have a right to go on strike. You do NOT have a right to abandon your work unannounced over made-up medical reasons. Because THAT is what happened today. There was no strike announcement, ATC simply left their jobs. And a collective of 'just' 2,500 certainly does not have the right to collectively abandon their work, thereby causing MASSIVE chaos all over Spain and virtually paralize it, at a time when other parts of Europe are coping with considerable weather issues. If you cannot see that then I am afraid that the quality of Spanish ATC is far worse than discussed elsewhere on this board, presuming you are a Spanish ATC, that is.
"But rumour has it that those figures were not what controllers earned, but how much those controllers cost to the company (so not the home take pay, but added tax, training costs, admin costs and even the electricity and heating bill of the facilities were they work amongst others). Fact? I do not know, but given that the government had an agenda, I'd be very careful about what they say. "
Perhaps you can enlighten us and give us the real data, preferably with a link to a credible source.
Indigopete
"But if 99% of a workforce are able to co-ordinate themselves to effectively bring their operation to a halt en masse, then maybe they have a point to make and maybe we should listen to them. They clearly haven't been up until now."
I am sorry but I don't buy it. If the new working conditions for ATC are such a risk for passenger safety as they claim, there would have been much more subtle and effective ways for them to get their message across to the general public and thus, put pressure on their negotiation partners. It is also not the first time that they deny to do their jobs over bogus medical reason, though not at such a massive scale as today, causing considerable delays. Earlier this year they did it while their union was in negotiations with AENA.
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Yous guys must remember that over the past year, you have pissed off so many pilots with your strict adherence attitude, had this not been the case, I suspect you wouldn't be getting a hostile reception here. Good luck...
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Samo,
I'm not sure if you've ever had any contact with members of the Spanish air traffic services, but taken as a whole they are by far the most incompetent, unmotivated, and arrogant group of people I have had the displeasure of dealing with. They are in fact, worse than their own politicians... and that's quite something.
I'm sure you mean well, but your sympathy is misplaced here.
I'm not sure if you've ever had any contact with members of the Spanish air traffic services, but taken as a whole they are by far the most incompetent, unmotivated, and arrogant group of people I have had the displeasure of dealing with. They are in fact, worse than their own politicians... and that's quite something.
I'm sure you mean well, but your sympathy is misplaced here.
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).Friend of mine from the German Navy holds them in high regard as well. Reckons it was the whole NATO thing that brought them out of the dark ages.
As for the Air Force, whatever their aeronautical or linguistic competences, at least I expect they will have a grasp of two concepts: discipline and responsibility. That should be a massive improvement.
Pegase Driver
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Reall mess. quick notes /anwers:
Regading military taking over ( anywhere ) this is 2010 in the EU where licensing is in force, Military controllers are not licenced/trained for En-route civil ops. For TWRs at airports this is different ( mixed ops ) . Also umbers are not at all the same , a few hunded licensed military controllers in Spain 1800 civil.
Comparison with Reagan/USA/1981 .(I was involved ) in 81 huge overstaff in FAA, low working hours , so firing 60% workforce was mitigated by : calling back retired people, management and a few ( hundreds ) of military in some TWRS. Then they enforced 6 days/ week of 12 hours/day to that workfordce, and still it was a mess for 12-14 months ( big delays in the New york area,many incidents ) . Resolved after 4-5 years only.
Totally different in Spain today.
.
Regading military taking over ( anywhere ) this is 2010 in the EU where licensing is in force, Military controllers are not licenced/trained for En-route civil ops. For TWRs at airports this is different ( mixed ops ) . Also umbers are not at all the same , a few hunded licensed military controllers in Spain 1800 civil.
Comparison with Reagan/USA/1981 .(I was involved ) in 81 huge overstaff in FAA, low working hours , so firing 60% workforce was mitigated by : calling back retired people, management and a few ( hundreds ) of military in some TWRS. Then they enforced 6 days/ week of 12 hours/day to that workfordce, and still it was a mess for 12-14 months ( big delays in the New york area,many incidents ) . Resolved after 4-5 years only.
Totally different in Spain today.
.
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This is an accident waiting to happen! Having the entire workforce in an upset state of mind is not good in our business. "Work or you will be arrested!"...I mean, is this Bananistan???
I can understand the reasons of the Spanish colleagues, but I can´t approve of the manner they chose to go on strike.
I can understand the reasons of the Spanish colleagues, but I can´t approve of the manner they chose to go on strike.
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Making the military take over sectors of which they have no appropriate training or basic idea how to handle is dangerous.
When an already trained ATCO starts working at new unit the unit-/sector-specific training is anything between 6 and 16 months depending on the complexity and traffic load of the sector ...
Oh well, glad I'm not flying to spain during the next few years.
When an already trained ATCO starts working at new unit the unit-/sector-specific training is anything between 6 and 16 months depending on the complexity and traffic load of the sector ...
Oh well, glad I'm not flying to spain during the next few years.
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el periodico reports that the meeting held by the union at the hotel in Madrid was monitored by the National Police and Guardia Civil with a view to identifying those attending for possible criminal charges of sedition which here in Spain can carry a prison sentence of between 8 and 15 years...
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Good luck amigos!
Maybe others in our industry should have the backbone to stand up and fight against the constant deterioation in T and C's rather than "spouting off" about their lot on PPRune.
You're in the front line at the moment - if you lose this dispute, then be under no illusions- whether on the ground or at the pointy end, one by one we'll be next.
Saludos!
Maybe others in our industry should have the backbone to stand up and fight against the constant deterioation in T and C's rather than "spouting off" about their lot on PPRune.
You're in the front line at the moment - if you lose this dispute, then be under no illusions- whether on the ground or at the pointy end, one by one we'll be next.
Saludos!