Spanish ATC

[BeT]

@ Firefly Bob: as far as I understand it (as a controller but not from Spain).

-For several years a proportion of Spanish ATCOs 'took the piss' a little bit with the rostering rules meaning that they gained some extra-ordinary salaries through non-contracted over-time. IMO they were on slightly dodgy ground as rosters and manning was specifically arranged so that the max. overtime payments could be reached.

-For a long time AENA were happy enough with this as paying o/time was on the whole cheaper than training new controllers.

-AENA invested much €€€ in the expansion/modernisation of airports all round Spain and for whatever reason are now massively in the red.

-This is combined with an overall economic/traffic downturn, coupled with a government facing an ever-maddening population and new ministers/managers with a point to prove.

-Somebody, somewhere has correlated the massive losses of AENA with the substantial ATCO salaries and this has been leaked to the press who have ran with it. In reality the ATCO salaries are a bit of a drop in the ocean.

-New laws 'decrees' (or whatever they be called) have been pushed through meaning ATCOs are having to 'work' longer hours - or the 'overtime' has been made mandatory working time with the associated loss of salary. However the new mandatory hrs arent substantially different from what any ATCO in the EU can expect to work (as far as I can tell).

-Spanish ATCOs upset with the above new hrs entered into discussion with AENA in order to negotiate a better resolution from the ATCO point of view.
(plus doubtless lots of other issues)

-Jump forward to December and AENA is in a spot of bother as they realise that the new legal hours leave most of the workforce legally unable to work in December.

-New decree pushed through scrapping previous legal limit and 'forcing' ATCOs to work extra hours.

-ATCOs not happy and do a mass 'sickie' to prove their point.

-Government militarise ATC operations and force ATCOs back to work under the threat of arrest and imprisonment.

-Public and press jump all over issue as they do a sickie on one of the busiest weekends of the year.

-Government see potential easy political gain.

-Present situation arrived at.

Situation not helped amongst 'professional' community as Spanish ATC seen as a bit of a joke - not necessarily fair, but usually no smoke without fire.


Thats my take on it anyway.

And my final 2p worth is that the Spanish Government are going to do a 'Reagan' and will end up firing everybody and re-hire on new contracts.

[calcagafo]

this is probably as good a summary as you're going to get, from an insider's point of view (kindly translated by Old Fokker):

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ml#post6104455

The only problem is:

that insider is not an ATCO anymore, not long before he wrote that, he misteriously got promoted to a nice office with a considerable pay raise.....

[calcagafo]

Still is (a controller) and still doesn't agree with (the majority?) of his colleagues. At least judging from his most recent commentary (in Spanish, sorry).

There´s a difference between having a licence and being an ATCO, he has not talked to any pilot for a very long time.

In Spain, Rome DOES pay traitors...

[calcagafo]

Still is (a controller) and still doesn't agree with (the majority?) of his colleagues. At least judging from his most recent commentary (in Spanish, sorry). Isn´t it amazing that only one out of 2000 ATCOs is suddenly ashamed of what he claims he did?

the other 1999 are just soulless demons out of hell craving for more money....

[Old_Fokker]

max1

Who are you exactly? You seem to portray yourself as a working pilot.
You seem to have a lot of information that appears to be gleened from media and government sources. Have you thought of a career in PR for AENA or the Spanish government, or are you already in that role?

As I have stated earlier on this forum in other threads, I am neither a pilot nor anything remotely aviation related. As my nick suggests, I am a Dutchman and have been living in Spain for the past 25 years.

I rarely participate on these forums, except in those cases where topics are discussed which are not of a pure technical aviation nature, such as this case, and where I believe I can contribute positively given my location, knowledge of the Spanish and Dutch language and, as in this case, the backgrounds of a particular issue.

What has happened in the last few days has its genesis in the last 11 years, rather than the last few days. Why would a government/ANSP put out this latest Royal Decree when they did, why not wait until after this important public holiday period?

I described that extensively in earlier posts which apparently you have not read. ATCO's, via their union, threatened that much of Spain's airspace would have to be closed in December due to ATCO's reaching the maximum of their working hours, and which was already the issue at some local places such as Galicia. The dispute here is the difference of interpretation over what are working hours/overtime by the two parties involved. ATCO's knew all along that AENA did not accept their particular interpretation but followed it nevertheless. Climax was reached when the ATCO's union put out their November 29 press release, 4 days before the December 3rd decree, stating that similar situations were to be expected for the whole of Spain in December. That is why the December 3rd decree was issued so urgently, just 4 days after USCA union's press-release.

paidworker:

The notion that the guardia civil were not "polite" is one I can easily believe, they deal with shouting football fans with horse and baton ( beating football fans is a sport to them ) and would have not problem in getting a little "rough." ..

The Guardia Civil does not deal with football fans, the Policia Nacional (the so called 'anti-disturbios') usually does. See how some local knowledge can come in handy to avoid prejudice?

This was all planned...

The facts don't back you up.

1. In July the Government approves a decree in which the new working hours are established at 1,670 + 80 overtime hours.
2. At the end of November UCSA union says that Galicia airspace will have to be closed due to ATC running out of working hours and that this will very likely spread to the rest of Spain in December. And this is all due to UCSA interpreting the July decree differently, particularly regarding what can and cannot be considered as extra time.
3. As a result of that, on December 3rd the government issues a new decree clarifying the overtime issue.

There clearly is a direct relation between the union's threads regarding the closing of Spain's airspace in December and the government approving a new decree on December the 3rd. The latter was not planned, it was a reaction to the union's thread.

AngeleTor:

So if they know the problem since summer, the partial LECG shutdowns began two weeks ago, but that problem will not worsen until the end of this week, why the government publish the decree that friday instead of the week before, or the week after????

Because your union persisted in its own interpretation of the July decree regarding working hours and overtime and had already started acting in accordance to that interpretation in Galicia, despite the government/AENA's multiple warnings that that interpretation was not valid nor legal. What's more, in the November 29 union Press Release they stated that similar situations were to be expected for the rest of Spain in December.

There's just 4 days between that union press release and the government approving a new decree clarifying the working time/overtime issue which, for Spain, is remarkably fast.

By the way, along with our decree, our weak government also approved in the same act several other decrees, where they stop giving a 460€ aid to long-term unemployed, or declare to modify the maximum working age from 65 to 67 (remember France???), all of them VERY unpopular measures, but nobody has said a word about it, I'm sure that the people don't even know it. So, we were set a trap, and we bite the cheese like hungry mice...

Yes, those measures are very unpopular indeed but it is simply not true that no one has said a word about it. It certainly has been covered extensively in the Spanish press lately because that is how I found out about it. Please don't make this appear as if 'the government' is picking on you publicly to pass through other unpopular measures while no one is paying attention. That's a very weak argument to defend your case.

max1:

What has happened in the last few days has its genesis in the last 11 years, rather than the last few days. Why would a government/ANSP put out this latest Royal Decree when they did, why not wait until after this important public holiday period?

I stated this before in earlier posts and so have others. My take on the whole situation is that the ATCO's simply overplayed their cards. Not only the last few days but also the months and even years leading up to it. In this regard, the opinion of the non unionized Spanish ATCO Francisco Capella as put forth in a August 2010 article by him (see earlier post from me with excerpts) can be enlightening:

"For a long I warned my colleagues that they were going too far and were creating an unsustainable system, but obviously they never listened and continued the excesses and abuses." [Source]

(Mr Capello published a new article on this whole situation just a few days ago. I will translate it and post it here later).

Transilvana:

Knowing that ATCO´s will respond to this as they did,...

Let me clarify this: you argue that the government knew beforehand that ATCO's would resort to illegal actions once the decree was approved but did so nonetheless? If so, you really are delusional.

Furthermore, the most import issue is that Zapatero and his goverment should resign and call for new elections but issuing and State of Alarm, which now they want to prorrogate 2 months, the rest of the political parties now can´t disolve the goverment. But, there is more. There are municipal elections in April-May next year, under constitution you need 3 months separation between elections so you can´t call for national elections so you can´t disolve the parlament

You appear to be completely unaware that even Spain's opposition parties are largely behind how 'the socialists' handled this issue.

And the most important, if Zapatero wants to keep his salary for his all life paid by the spanish he must be on the goverment for 7 years, and when is that? Correct, April-May 2011!!!!!

You are not doing your ATCO friends' case a favour by posting such nonsense, you know?

Now think... you guys out from Spain and not knowing the issues on the country don´t know about this but the last 4 years have always been the same, everytime there was an important matter to solve Zapatero would come with some distraction maneuver.

Well I've been here in Spain the past 25 years and I've not seen any of what you claim. I do remember though one little guy with a moustache blaming ETA for something al-Qaeda had clearly done, 2 days prior to some general elections. But I guess that doesn't count as a 'distraction maneuver' for you.

[Blockla]

And my final 2p worth is that the Spanish Government are going to do a 'Reagan' and will end up firing everybody and re-hire on new contracts.

There is no need for them to do this, currently the Royal Decrees unilaterally alter the previous agreements, the employees can currently not even resign at the moment.

The previous collective agreement was just that, an agreement, between AENA and employees. The exorbitant salaries achieved by some Spanish ATCs was the justification for the action taken but not the cause of the problem. The cause of the high salaries was/is the chronic understaffing which resulted in massive overtime needed, (horse or cart?)... The staffing problem has been reduced by imposing effectively an extra 500 hours per annum per employee, but is still far from resolved; there is still a staffing crisis.

The 1st Royal Decree amended various 'employment entitlements'. The decree imposed changes to normal working practices; particularly relating to working hours, timetable, shift work, salary system, work and productivity system, and duties.

The second Royal Decree further amended these entitlements.

The 3rd Royal Decree was necessary due to the 'maximum annual allowed hours' contained in either the 2nd or 1st decree as a protection to the controllers was going to be exhausted only 10 months after the first Decree.

The timing of the 3rd Decree (along with it's contents) was the catalyst for the action taken; regardless of what day it was. It further amended working hours and all sorts of leave entitlements including sick-leave.

Whilst it has been stated in multiple places that the action taken was a "sick out" I ask how many reasonable men/women would not actually feel sick/stressed/whatever after the year the Spanish ATCs have endured, IMHO, the latest attack on employment conditions was the straw that broke the camels back. I wouldn't have been in the right mental place to go to work in such circumstances I'm sure of that.

None of the content of any of the Royal Decrees have been negotiated but simply imposed. What is stopping the 4th, 5th, 6th Decree etc.? What hope have the Spanish ATCs got at getting a 'fair deal' now. Sure what they had before was great, but not so since Feb 2010. What is the legality of these decrees, they may yet prove in law to be unconstitutional and thus illegal.

It matters not what the conditions of employment were, it matters what they now are. The concept of effectively no sick leave entitlements and constant changes to working conditions is not something I would want imposed on me and if you think about it logically you too wouldn't want it either.

For those that have stated they should all just quit, well it's now not a valid option, it's potentially and act of treason. But at the same time what is the realistic option, fight for your rights while employed or after resignation? What other employment options are in the Spanish economy at present?

Whether or not you are happy with the service Spanish ATC provide or have a view on the current economic conditions in Spain; it certainly is not the fault of Spanish ATC. They had a contract they worked to it. The employer with government sponsorship removed the conditions (3 times now) with no guarantees they won't do it again.

Additionally I'd argue it's not the fault of Spanish ATCs in relation to the perceptions of a 'crap service' they have been chronically short of staff for more than a decade... It's been bad, it may get worse yet?

The whole thing IMHO is very very sad and an inditement upon citizens rights from a supposed modern first world country.

[paidworker]

Its unlikely the Reagan tactic will be employed here because its not straight forward for the administration here. They are so organised that the relatively few military controllers who " were " qualified to do the job all let their ratings lapse on the 16th of October, because there was bickering in house about whether they would even be able to do the job anyway.. so apart from any localized procedures training that might be needed they apparently need to recertify in the civilian sense. The press / mob is also not calling for this as there is a memory of the loss of spanish aircraft in miltary controlled france and a recognition that all the controllers cant be sacked as most of them would probably not seek reemployment especially if they saved over the last years. Source El Mundo.

Also according to elmundo a royal decree reduced without agreement the salary of Spanish air traffic controllers to 200K ( euro )average in Feb of this year, at the same time it was made more difficult for workers to strike , with minimum staffing levels essentially comprising of a full shift. I could not find information relating to an increase in their hours in that decree but I gather there was an increase, an increase it seems was not in effect enough given the staff levels. The Union was signalling the shortfall so the latest decree clarified in favour of the administration what exactly constituted an hour worked to make up the hours requirement.

According to El Mundo , ( which is heavily critical of the manner in which ATCOs handled the situation but respects or asserts that it was strategically engineered by the administration ..this is the chief line of attack of the PP, spains opposition party who will get in at the next election so at least somebody is not baying for blood down here) AENA itself was denied funding for training more ATCOs , it apparently is very expensive and the Unions had been pushing for it. The administrations position was that they should accept drastically increased hours for further cuts in pay.

[LH2]

Originally Posted by Blockla

The exorbitant salaries achieved by some Spanish ATCs was the justification for the action taken but not the cause of the problem. The cause of the high salaries was/is the chronic understaffing which resulted in massive overtime needed, (horse or cart?)...

It would be awfully nice if people would ensure that a) they have read at least the last few day's worth of posts to avoid going round in circles (it's basic politeness), b) if possible have at least some background knowledge of the issue under discussion, and c) have something new to contribute.

The chronic understaffing issue has been discussed here before. It has been known for a long time by those of us with local knowledge that this situation was created by the controllers union itself, and we now learn that it had been made public in writing months ago (and quite possibly in other occasions prior as well).

That an unsustainable situation lasted for so long can probably be attributed to the successive governments lack of will to deal with it. It has now befallen on the current government to get its hands dirty, but I doubt it was through their own choice.

As for claims of lack of negotiation, AENA has long been a heaven for abusive unions (the controller's being perhaps the most expensive, but far from the only one). Negotiations had been held for years, and always met with the same intransigence on the union's side. But you can only pull that stunt so far.

As for salaries having been reduced from astronomic to well above Spanish average, so what? The government is the client so they decide how much they're willing to pay for the service being provided (which was ****e anyway). And when one of you (privately I know there were more, but at least one is in print) says you have gone too far and are being unreasonable, the syndicalists and minions amongst you label him "a traitor". Sure, never mind that you are hacking the golden goose to bits, and that your fellow citizens' opinions of you start at "bunch of selfish gits" and goes well downhill from there, to the point that you need police protection to avoid being lynched (allegedly).

In the meanwhile, I hear that the traffic situation over Spain has improved considerably compared to the last couple of months. As someone suggested, after all maybe they should park a couple of "lecheras" down by the tower to keep the lads motivated

[megustalavida]

increible....

@ AngeleTOR

As a professional pilot you have my full support and sympathy fighting for your conditions at work. And I am ashamed of what kind of response you earn of some of my "colleagues". The pilots profession is going down by year and year, especially, because there is no solidarity belong us. I am also ashamed towards some pilots attitude towards you, but hey, they are only victims in their system which is going in the wrong direction. Every penny (and i dont choose the word cent!) must be saved and the operation is so much focussed on economy. Save the penny, loose the pound. Thats is very often the case.

I am quite sure, that the most complaining people are the one who are flying to Spain with barely minimum fuel reserves in order to save some "pennies" on extra fuel and then gets stressed if the plan does not work for them as they expect. But hey, thats also our job to keep the operation safe and simple and to know, what it is to like to operate into Spanish airspace and that it is not like northern part of Europe. Especially when it comes to abnormals.

Even said so, there are countries whoch are much much worse ... So everything is relative

Flying in and out of Spain for more than 10year for myself i had always the support needed and felt comfortable flying in the airspace. Of course sometimes it doesnt get well, but then you do the job you are paid for.

Ok, i have to admit that i dont care a lot about direct routing unless it is offered from your side of course ... and i usually i fly my atc filed flight plan (expept wx consideration) and dont files 290 to avoid a slot and then ask for higher later.

If we pilots would have had only the half of your solidarity and balls which you are showing, our conditions would not have fallen down by to year.

The world is more and more ruled by greedy profit managers, with no values. If an ATC controler earn 300.000eur a year, so it be. Thats what a average pilot did earn 30 years ago

Coming back with this ridiculus military ruling - ordering reminds me a bit of Franco style way, which i was hoping that Spain had left behind in his history.

Good luck to all of you!!

- pls ignore english spelling or grammer mistakes as it is not my mother tongue (but hey i can speak 3 other languages better )

[paidworker]

All the bleeding hearts about spanish minimum wage and unemployment. I know four unemployed people and three of them left work in the last 2 years on purpose to claim benefits, gaming the system is a way of life for everybody in Spain as is not declaring all your income. In fact about it is known the GDP for spain is totally not accurate as nobody declares most of their income. All these hypocrits talking about the state of the nations coffers get of your potty and pay your taxes and come back to me. There are Easyjet captains earning more than the alledged annual minimum wage in Spain in a month... should they be lynched also? Should our government denounce them as privilegiados and work to turn the nation against them..and that work was well in progress before last friday. What about the 10% of uk police officers on long term sick leave on full wage ? Should mob opinion and rule be the way forward for employers and employees, knowing how fickle the mob is ? Spains unemployment rate at the best of times was close to 10% whereas its approaching that across the eurozone in the worst of times so that too needs to be put in context also. It is not as black and white as any of us is trying to make it.

[belk78]

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/1812486...ain_061210.pdf

[p_perez]

@Old_Fokker

There clearly is a direct relation between the union's threads regarding the closing of Spain's airspace in December and the government approving a new decree on December the 3rd. The latter was not planned, it was a reaction to the union's hread.

You seem to express yourself with great authority, for someone who has confessed is not a professional pilot nor ATC. Try answering this question: why didn't Spanish President Zapatero go to the Ibero-American Summit this year and decided to stay at home? This has never happened in 20 years since the first Summit.

And also: why did Spanish Economy minister Elena Salgado acknowledge during a radio interview that there could be 'problems' with Spanish ATCO's, 3 DAYS BEFORE THE NEW ROYAL DECREE WAS RELEASED?

Saludos militares!

[SINGAPURCANAC]

I have to.
for me it is amazing how some lessons from the past haven't been learnt.
First from USA, already mentioned " Regan Case" '81
The second Ex Federal Republic of Yugoslavia known as "Ceca case" '93( Ceca refers to director general of ATS Ljubisa Velickovic-Ceca,RIP)
In both cases there are lot of simmilarities:
-It was good
-it was very good
-Then system has been closed for outside solutions and ideas,because it was good
- enviroment was changed but ATC didn't suffer
- enviroment again has been changed to worse,but ATC still enjoy "preferencies"
-enviroment changed dramaticly, and someone asked :"we could take some money from ATC?"
-why not?
-there is strong ATC union
-then negotiation
- ATC union didn't recognize situation
-things became complicated
-ATC thinks that they keep the keys,they are licensed ,experienced and unchangable
-Management doesn't think so.
- ATCOs starts strike
-management said: "who doesn't appear on Monday will be fired"
-ATCOs said " No chance to fire a lot of ATCOs" They need us
-Management : "fire them ALL"
end of quote.

IFATCA keeps mouth closed as ussual , Eurocontrol doesn't bother with "internal issue of member states , Unions has bigger problems than a few hundred overpaid ATCOs, and new day starts .Unfortunattely.

And I will give my oppinion that current situation in Spain is good for ATCOs.
actually military saves your working positions.
nobody tells to ATCOs what really happens if they continiue with the protests.

1.Some ATCOs" are LOYAL to goverment and managemntmthey do not strike ever,after strike isuues,promotion

2 Some ATCOs, I call them "WELL INFORMED" were in front line for strike,but they took on that monday sick leave or started regular holiday leave, so management wasn't able to fire them because of law( you can't fire someone if somen is on sick/holiday leave)

3 Some ATCOs, I call them ENOUGH IS ENOUGH already decide to leave company,they find a better job or they save enough money during good times, and they find pretty relaxed situation. They aren't oblige to work anymore and they didn't resign itself. they have been fired,At latter stages they wiould take a lot of money from State because they have been fired illegally.

4. some ATCOs were too stupid to know those issues, continiue with strike and finally they fired. They keep each other ,they "believed" to union leaders, they "believed to IFATCA ,EC or simmilar institution,but thay see that monday empty wallet withou employment.
I will call that group " SORRY MY FRIENDS"


finnaly ,general opinnion about such cases. Private ownership provider solves all those issues easy and painless.

if State is owner it will always be like those mentioned above issues.
Soon or latter.

[Old_Fokker]

P_perez;

You seem to express yourself with great authority, for someone who has confessed is not a professional pilot nor ATC. Try answering this question: why didn't Spanish President Zapatero go to the Ibero-American Summit this year and decided to stay at home? This has never happened in 20 years since the first Summit.

And also: why did Spanish Economy minister Elena Salgado acknowledge during a radio interview that there could be 'problems' with Spanish ATCO's, 3 DAYS BEFORE THE NEW ROYAL DECREE WAS RELEASED?

Because one could deduct from USCA's November 29 press release that they would persist with their peculiar interpretation of working time/overtime rules and that as a result of that, airspace all over Spain would have to be closed in the last few remaining weeks of the year?

November 29 Press Release by USCA Union (excerpts):

"Tonight there are no ATCO's in Santiago since all available have reached the maximum hours allowed by law."

"Camilo Cela, the union president, explains that "this problem will be extended to other control units. We anticipate difficulties almost every day for intermittent closures due to the lack of professionals provided by AENA to ensure the service " (Emphasis mine)

[Original press release of 29 November 2010 by USCA union]

You're looking for conspiracy theories when there are none there. Step back and take a deep breath.

****

As promised in an earlier post, here's the translation of Fernando Capella's (*) last article, dated December 3rd, 2010

* Spanish, non-union ATCO.

Uncontrolled Blackmail

A common tactic of blackmail in the collective fight of controllers against AENA and the Government is to interpret the rules in the most restrictive and arbitrary way as possible to favour its interests as a pressure group. With all kinds of excuses they appeal to security and fear, and, while pretending to be highly responsible and the main guarantors of security of aviation, what they really get (and probably pursue) is severely damaging its fluidity and efficiency. As an example of lack of scruples to pervert language, some, when they have a night shift they claim to have worked two days, the day their shift started and the day their shift ended and so they can claim to have worked twenty days each month and that the company thus exploits and harasses them into slavery.

According to the recent law which now regulates their activity, a controller can not work more than 1,670 hours per year, plus 80 voluntary overtime. During this year the union USCA and many ATCO's felt that given the number of existing staff, there would not be enough hours to cover all services, and at the end of the year Aena would be forced by this to give in when negotiating the new agreement. USCA has consistently accused the company of poor forecasting and planning and despise their repeated warnings.

But the ATCO's were calculating their hours according to their own criteria, the wrong ones it appears. The Cabinet has clarified that for that annual limit, non-aeronautical work activities of non-aeronautical (union leave, the imaginary and the licenses and occupational disability absences, and reduced working hours) do not count. Only the hours of actual controlling work with corresponding breaks, plus time for training guards with real traffic are to be counted.

Some ATCO's apparently unilaterally decide how to interpret the rules and not listen to the decisions and clarifications of the competent authorities: a significant number have left their jobs in what could be a serious crime, while all simultaneously and suspiciously claiming that sudden health problems preclude them their work. Given the absence of staff traffic is restricted, closing the airspace almost entirely, causing multibillion-dollar losses and severe damage to many people who can not travel on the eve of a long bank holiday and in the midst of a dire economic crisis.

I do not know if this was a concerted action. I do not know if there are more air traffic controllers who think this is crazy and unacceptable attitude: perhaps there are but dare not to speak out because of some radical individuals. Hopefully they will realize that this demonstration of the damage they can do will harm their already tarnished image even more. [Source]

[paidworker]

The guy is entitled to his opinion for sure and his recent promotion , however European and global ATCO unions have interpreted the decree in the same way as the individual controllers, the friday decree was to " change " not clarify the hours according to El Mundo.

Looking beyond the 15 day period of forced work where one cannot resign or retire what do you think are the options? Given the age profile and pension packages and low number of people in civilian training combined with ( apparently) few military controllers qualified to take the work, its concievable that a percentage of people are fired and a percentage say enough is enough , what happens then. I mean it seems a common assumption that the end game is to fire them and selectively rehire on a ryanair style package but what if people dont go for that. There is much talk about the staffing crisis ( aside from the issue of who created it ) ..anythoughts on what the end game is... is the plan meantime to divide and conquer them.. the union appears quite united ? How practical is it that outside " civilian " controllers come to work in Spain. Would be interested to hear from qualified ATCOs.

[DjerbaDevil]

There would appear to be a serious overstaffing of Spanish Air Traffic Controllers and this may well be the real reason for the Spanish Controllers trying to protect their "Closed Shop" job with every ruse, be it legal or not.

Once the airports are partially privatised within the next 12-18 months and air traffic control towers are run by private firms, the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.

If you don't believe me, read on or page back to pages 14 and 15 of this thread:

19th Jul 2010, 16:45 #263 (permalink) speedbird462

Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13


approach procedures in Spain
I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!


19th Jul 2010, 20:54 #268 (permalink) calcagafo

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10


approach procedures in Spain
Hi Speedbird:

First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.

I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.

We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.

That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.

There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).

Hope this helped

How is it in London?


20th Jul 2010, 15:46 #281 (permalink) speedbird462

Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13


Approach procedures in Spain
Hola Calcagafo!
Thanks for the info. It seems that our system in the UK is slightly different. Since you mentioned that you use two runways at Barcelona, I can only compare it to the Heathrow operation, similar 27L&R. There are also 4 stacks, two to the north of the field for inbounds from the north and two to the south for inbounds from the south. There are 5 positions: Intermediate Director South & Support, Intermediate Director North & Support & Final Director. INT North is the master director and runs the show, deciding the sequence. INT south works inbounds from the south following the sequence of INT north. Both INT directors feed the traffic to Final Director for final sequencing. The TMA area controllers work all of the departures except on an easterly configuration where INT south works departures that are in direct conflict with inbound traffic. During low-medium traffic (rare at EGLL), only two positions are manned INT (North+ South+Support) and Final director. But most of the time Heathrow Approach has 4 controllers on frequency. On a normal morning shift Heathrow has 5 or 6 controllers on duty to allow for breaks, mostly 30mins to 1hr and 30 mins off. Your procedures must be very different and complicated to require 14 controllers for a shift? There is quite a difference 14 to 6 and Heathrow handles a bit more traffic than Barcelona. I just wonder… and I hope this helps too.

On a different note, Mr Blanco has clearly no idea of how air traffic works and how long it takes to train and validate controllers!! All I can say is keep a good look out if military controllers get to control civil traffic in Spain!


21st Jul 2010, 08:37 #285 (permalink) calcagafo

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Barcelona
Age: 38
Posts: 10


Approach procedures in Spain
Hi there Speedbird:

I think I see how you work, all in all the procedures seem not that different:

what we here call approach includes the whole TMA (14 controllers, six of them on frequency).

Still, the main difference I see (and it´s a big one at that) is that here, for every controller on frequency there is another one monitoring his work in an adjacent screen, and doing the coordinations with the sectors involved (talking on telephone lines or just screaming ).

That makes, 6 on frequency, 6 coordinators and two on a break; changing positions every hour or so.

I understand you don´t have that coordination position?, and every controller on frequency is on his/her own?

Thanks for your support.

[paidworker]

Thank you that is to an extent an enlightening post on face value but it seems that both sides in the "argument" here want more controllers , but lets run with that ..Ok so the objective would then be to fire a portion of the controllers ( and then spend millions on the ensuing legal / constitutional questions ), rewrite the manual , train for the new procedures in the remaining 10 days of military rule. Does Spain have autonomy in this matter of ammendment and self certification? Is that simply achieved or would there be legal/ technical barriers. It seems a very tall order. Im trying to understand if there is a plan as such or are the same people who allowed their military controllers* ratings to expire a few weeks ago running around behind the scenes trying to figure out what to do? ( The stupidity in that itself is not surprising incidentally just as some might argue the union is greedy its very easy to argue the administration is stupid beyond belief ) I gather Reagan had a large body of controllers he could call on , on the outside it appears Spain doesnt.. the French had military controllers ,..it appears Spain doesnt. The military rule could end but I doubt people will just sit there and wait for all this to happen around them over the next 12 months besides which untill its trashed out and bullet proof , the atcos are on board whos gonna pay a decent price for AENA given this is one of 100s of problems they face )


* Source: El Mundo.

[LH2]

Originally Posted by paidworker

Does Spain[....]

I'm not aware what the mid- and long-term plan is, but there is an easy way to find out: ask your Defence Minister. You don't even need a stamp if the letter is posted within Spain, and you should get a reply within a few weeks at most.

Let us know how you get on.

[paidworker]

What the minister plans and what can "practically" happen are two different things. That is of course if the defense minister does any planning since he is responsible for having no civilian qualified ATCOS if the newspapers have it right. I was directing the question at somebody who would know what is "possible". I think its a fair question and one that will begin to be asked as the dust settles.

[BrATCO]

Blockla,

The whole thing IMHO is very very sad and an inditement upon citizens rights from a supposed modern first world country.

I do totally agree with you on this quote and your whole post.

I thought being part of the EU should protect us from such political disruptions : sending the army against citizens.
But it seems we're not in the EU, we're back to EEC and there's too much money involved to take too much care about citizens rights...

And worse about it (as we're on a professional controller's thread) : too much money involved to take safety into account. Isn't there a big Human Factor issue in civilian controllers working civilian flights under a martial law (checked by warriors, potentially jailed...) ?

I stand to be corrected in saying I believe controllers all around the world work around 1500 hrs a year and they are paid twice the average national salary (not the median salary). This for obvious safety reasons : they must be fit and able to focus on planes' and passengers' safety. They should not be disturbed by external/personal problems when on duty.

Spannish controllers were overpaid ?
Fine for them. Who is jealous enough to complain about this ?
The problem, IMHO, is that they were over-paid in making overtime. One of the two HF I refer to wasn't taken into account...

Their employer should have stopped this years ago by recruiting and training before it was too late.
Now it's too late. Training a controller takes months (even years if we wish a decent one).

In a medium-long term, over-time is an operational non-sense.

Djerba Devil,

the Spanish ATCOs will need to work according to European standards and systems.

AFAIK, they already do.
The procedures they use are compatible with mine. I have to cope with the "no direct" rule, but that's all.
Their system is compatible with mine : computerised co-ordinations work between Spain and France, which is not the case with Ireland and UK.

As for the overstaffing (if any) some reasonable aviators could tell us that everything in aviation is redundant. 2 engines, 2 FMS, 2 radio boxes, 2 pilots (yet), 2 radar systems on the ground, 2 radio channels,... and so on.
I don't get why the weak link should be : only 1 tired controller with a gun aimed point-blank on the head...

Nock,
I would like to post a Gallo-French personal thought : This is the first time I read flyers from these two unions where they do totally agree. Almost word for word.