Spanish ATC
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My God! They use computer screens. Sometimes you get the feeling your being pushed around a map by wooden poles like some WWII era film! Mind you that roster looks like a recipe for disaster.
Got to agree though, religion and politics should be kept away from dinner parties, flight decks and ATCO positions.
Got to agree though, religion and politics should be kept away from dinner parties, flight decks and ATCO positions.
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"Station calling is?ŋ"
At least no we know what they are doing when they donīt answer!
The government needs some balls. Sack them all. There would be no problem getting people to staff places like Palma and Malaga.
At least no we know what they are doing when they donīt answer!
The government needs some balls. Sack them all. There would be no problem getting people to staff places like Palma and Malaga.
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Perez how can you defend the actions of the 2 females and 1 male who, in the first 10 seconds of the video, are paying absolutely no attention to their radar screens. And the male who stands up and starts arguing with the AENA bloke> The same male is then seen about 20 feet away from his screen shouting, whistling and arguing. Is he paying attention to the radar screen? IS he going to help me in an emergency? Is he keeping me away from terrain or other traffic? NO HE IS NOT. You are dangerous and shouldn't be anywhere near a radar screen.
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Surferboy,
Whilst having sympathy with the Spanish situation, and wishing as most do, a satisfactory conclusion, I find it difficult to believe any professional ATCO can find a defence for the Ops room situation and scenario as shown within the video.
A 'toliet break' either from the Flight Deck, or from an operational ATC position is surely a 'controlled' break? The whole scenario shown is ANYTHING other than that type of situation. Whilst other posters may be extemeist in reaction, please don't fall down the same path and make unworthy comparisons else any constructive comment will be entirely wasted......
30W
Whilst having sympathy with the Spanish situation, and wishing as most do, a satisfactory conclusion, I find it difficult to believe any professional ATCO can find a defence for the Ops room situation and scenario as shown within the video.
A 'toliet break' either from the Flight Deck, or from an operational ATC position is surely a 'controlled' break? The whole scenario shown is ANYTHING other than that type of situation. Whilst other posters may be extemeist in reaction, please don't fall down the same path and make unworthy comparisons else any constructive comment will be entirely wasted......
30W
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Telstar,
Looking at your previous posts and guessing who you fly for I guess this would be just the way to resolve a dispute with the employer.
I assume from this comment that you think controlling is very similar to flying?
You give the impression anyone can turn up at Palma or Malaga on day one and operate without a large degree of training, just like jumping into a B737 which will be common no matter what it says on the side.
At all but the quietest and less complicated airfields or sectors the validation period would be measured in months rather than days or weeks.
Still want them all sacked?
Sack them all. There would be no problem getting people to staff places like Palma and Malaga.
I assume from this comment that you think controlling is very similar to flying?
You give the impression anyone can turn up at Palma or Malaga on day one and operate without a large degree of training, just like jumping into a B737 which will be common no matter what it says on the side.
At all but the quietest and less complicated airfields or sectors the validation period would be measured in months rather than days or weeks.
Still want them all sacked?
250 Knots:
Have you ever experienced Spanish ATC from the front end (where the windows are)?
I have.
It started in 1962 when I was on my way south to Ascension Island and we called into Las Palmas on the way south. I was quite astonished to see a whole bunch of Buchons (Me109s) and Spanish-built He-111s get airborne.
I was totally fascinated. This was history in motion.
In many ways, things have not changed very much.
Spanish ATC have always been "interesting" and, I suspect, some of them are still in the Buchon era.
I can remember some 40 years later going into ZAZ one morning with a new F/O. When we got down town and got a beer in our hands, he told me a fantastic ZAZ story.
He was flying a Bandeirante with his previous company and was inbound to ZAZ one night when his problems started with an engine fire. His Mayday did not get too many people's attention.
Things got better, he then had an electrical failure etc. etc. etc. No radios.
He landed on 30L at ZAZ in the middle of the night (almost deadstick) which, those of you who are familiar, 30L was a standby skid strip for the space shuttle.
Just as he was breathing a huge sigh of relief for having got himself and his aeroplane on the ground in extremely difficult circumstances, the locals almost had him locked up for landing on a "military runway" despite the fact that the next scheduled space shuttle launch was not for about 60 days and the Spanish Air Force used 30R anyway.
I suppose that when you are paid 800,000 per annum and accept that a shouting match within the ATC centre is quite normal (as per the video) then there is little room for conversation.
What is the Spanish phrase for "common sense"?
Have you ever experienced Spanish ATC from the front end (where the windows are)?
I have.
It started in 1962 when I was on my way south to Ascension Island and we called into Las Palmas on the way south. I was quite astonished to see a whole bunch of Buchons (Me109s) and Spanish-built He-111s get airborne.
I was totally fascinated. This was history in motion.
In many ways, things have not changed very much.
Spanish ATC have always been "interesting" and, I suspect, some of them are still in the Buchon era.
I can remember some 40 years later going into ZAZ one morning with a new F/O. When we got down town and got a beer in our hands, he told me a fantastic ZAZ story.
He was flying a Bandeirante with his previous company and was inbound to ZAZ one night when his problems started with an engine fire. His Mayday did not get too many people's attention.
Things got better, he then had an electrical failure etc. etc. etc. No radios.
He landed on 30L at ZAZ in the middle of the night (almost deadstick) which, those of you who are familiar, 30L was a standby skid strip for the space shuttle.
Just as he was breathing a huge sigh of relief for having got himself and his aeroplane on the ground in extremely difficult circumstances, the locals almost had him locked up for landing on a "military runway" despite the fact that the next scheduled space shuttle launch was not for about 60 days and the Spanish Air Force used 30R anyway.
I suppose that when you are paid 800,000 per annum and accept that a shouting match within the ATC centre is quite normal (as per the video) then there is little room for conversation.
What is the Spanish phrase for "common sense"?
Gender Faculty Specialist
Suferboy, of course I have. When it's quiet and I'm desperate, in the cruise and only when I implicitly trust the F/O. I am allowed by my company to do this.
Would you rather have me sitting there only concentrating on not peeing my pants? Have you heard of distractors? Probably not.
I would not however, leave the flight deck to shout and scream and stamp my feet, probably distracting the F/O from his job, whenever anybody wound me up a little bit. That would be dangerous.
Leave your emotions at home.
Now go away.
Would you rather have me sitting there only concentrating on not peeing my pants? Have you heard of distractors? Probably not.
I would not however, leave the flight deck to shout and scream and stamp my feet, probably distracting the F/O from his job, whenever anybody wound me up a little bit. That would be dangerous.
Leave your emotions at home.
Now go away.
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JW411,
You miss my point completely. Telstar seems to give the impression that by sacking them all you get a usable ATC service the very next day which unlike piloting is simply not the case.
If he and his company are happy to go down this line and potentially experience many,many months of delays whilst the number of valed controllers is replenished then fine.
At no stage do I defend what is going on in Spain either from an ATC or AENA point of view. It is clear from the video that emotions are running high and un-professionalism is creeping in on both sides.
Only AENA and the unions getting round the table is going to help alleviate the present situation and neither side is likely to actually win the war. At best an uncomfortable agreement will be reached which may continue to lead to mis-trust between the 2 sides. Not brilliant in a safety conscious environment.
Common sense seems to have been forgotten by both sides here.
It's at times like this that I'm glad I work for an ANSP that puts safety right at the top of the list. Not something MOL seems to do according to his interview for the Sunday Times where costs and prices come ahead of safety and efficiency.
Now if I could only be so confident that safety will stay at the top if we are fully privatised.
You miss my point completely. Telstar seems to give the impression that by sacking them all you get a usable ATC service the very next day which unlike piloting is simply not the case.
If he and his company are happy to go down this line and potentially experience many,many months of delays whilst the number of valed controllers is replenished then fine.
At no stage do I defend what is going on in Spain either from an ATC or AENA point of view. It is clear from the video that emotions are running high and un-professionalism is creeping in on both sides.
Only AENA and the unions getting round the table is going to help alleviate the present situation and neither side is likely to actually win the war. At best an uncomfortable agreement will be reached which may continue to lead to mis-trust between the 2 sides. Not brilliant in a safety conscious environment.
Common sense seems to have been forgotten by both sides here.
It's at times like this that I'm glad I work for an ANSP that puts safety right at the top of the list. Not something MOL seems to do according to his interview for the Sunday Times where costs and prices come ahead of safety and efficiency.
Now if I could only be so confident that safety will stay at the top if we are fully privatised.
Last edited by 250 kts; 29th Jul 2010 at 18:06.
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JW411, I would tend to think ZAZ was and is manned precisely by those military controllers that the Spanish Governement wants to put in lieu of their better trained civil counterparts.
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p_perez
After reading what is on here concerning the changes Spanish ATC is going through, I do have sympathy for your cause.
I would like to give you and your colleagues my full support, but not before you help me understand a couple of stumbling blocks I have. Apologies if you have already covered the points.
1. The action taken by Controllers is obviously not working and in our eyes (Pilots') it is ineffective. Why are there no organised walk outs as the French have done?
2. During this action why are Spanish aircraft blatantly being given priority over foreign aircraft on Approach/Take-Off? (Please don't deny this. It is incredibly obvious, as we pilots have TCAS showing all aircraft 40nm around our plane. When an aircraft 20nm behind and 4,000ft higher gets in-front of me, while I'm off on some obscure headings it never surprises me that it turns out to be Spanish.)
So I implore you, go back to your colleagues, get rid of the signs in your centre and really take action and make sure it is applied to EVERYONE fairly. Make the right people hurt, because this action is only hurting your cause and foreign airlines.
Publicise your cause. Contact pilot unions in other countries and encourage them to inform pilots what you are fighting for and how you are doing it.
As soon as the action you take starts to make sense to us you will find a lot of support on the radio!
After reading what is on here concerning the changes Spanish ATC is going through, I do have sympathy for your cause.
I would like to give you and your colleagues my full support, but not before you help me understand a couple of stumbling blocks I have. Apologies if you have already covered the points.
1. The action taken by Controllers is obviously not working and in our eyes (Pilots') it is ineffective. Why are there no organised walk outs as the French have done?
2. During this action why are Spanish aircraft blatantly being given priority over foreign aircraft on Approach/Take-Off? (Please don't deny this. It is incredibly obvious, as we pilots have TCAS showing all aircraft 40nm around our plane. When an aircraft 20nm behind and 4,000ft higher gets in-front of me, while I'm off on some obscure headings it never surprises me that it turns out to be Spanish.)
So I implore you, go back to your colleagues, get rid of the signs in your centre and really take action and make sure it is applied to EVERYONE fairly. Make the right people hurt, because this action is only hurting your cause and foreign airlines.
Publicise your cause. Contact pilot unions in other countries and encourage them to inform pilots what you are fighting for and how you are doing it.
As soon as the action you take starts to make sense to us you will find a lot of support on the radio!
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Good lord that video is an own goal. Bunch of clowns walking around with paper stuck to their backs when they should be controlling - do they realise that those blips on their screens are actually real planes full of people with families? or do they just think its a computer game?
Fire them all before they get people killed.
Fire them all before they get people killed.
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For Touch'n'oops:
thank you for your constructive post, very much needed among so much hate oneīs.
Regarding a more contundent response from our part to the agression we are suffering from Spanish goverment and AENA, here is an explanation from my colleague El Molo:
"(..) And finally, we cannot strike. For 3 reasons. We are legally fighting the new law. AENA is trying to force us to go to strike far before the decree, from early 2009. If we did so, then as the conflict would be between us and AENA, the government would immediately act as a referee, and force then the new T&C not as they are now, imposed, but as a new collective agreement. Secondly, when we go to strike, the minimum services declared for us are 100 to 110 %. So the strike doesn't stop the air traffic at all. You get all the inconvenience of the strike (bad press and government's referee) with no benefits as the service will work exactly the same as if you don't strike. And third, we cannot force a savage strike, not respecting the minimum services, because we have from 2003 an "Air Safety Law" performed by another minister also very keen to us, that entitles the government to fine us with only 250.000 if we attempt against the continuity or safety of the system. Believe me, if we could gain something by strike, we would have done it far before."
The complete post is here: http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php...08#post5838111 , and he answers other questions too (have a look to our reasons for not giving so many directs or not filed FLīs).
And about the occasional priority given to Spanish companies over other foreign ones, I can only tell you that I have never, EVER, given priority to anybody because of the nationality of the carrier. I have witnessed this on very few occasions with some senior colleague. And I have been ranted MORE than on few ocassions by an Spanish pilot for not giving him priority. Seniors are more present in app sectors, of which I believe you complain more: Iīm not yet on that job, only an enroute ATCO.
Saludos!
thank you for your constructive post, very much needed among so much hate oneīs.
Regarding a more contundent response from our part to the agression we are suffering from Spanish goverment and AENA, here is an explanation from my colleague El Molo:
"(..) And finally, we cannot strike. For 3 reasons. We are legally fighting the new law. AENA is trying to force us to go to strike far before the decree, from early 2009. If we did so, then as the conflict would be between us and AENA, the government would immediately act as a referee, and force then the new T&C not as they are now, imposed, but as a new collective agreement. Secondly, when we go to strike, the minimum services declared for us are 100 to 110 %. So the strike doesn't stop the air traffic at all. You get all the inconvenience of the strike (bad press and government's referee) with no benefits as the service will work exactly the same as if you don't strike. And third, we cannot force a savage strike, not respecting the minimum services, because we have from 2003 an "Air Safety Law" performed by another minister also very keen to us, that entitles the government to fine us with only 250.000 if we attempt against the continuity or safety of the system. Believe me, if we could gain something by strike, we would have done it far before."
The complete post is here: http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php...08#post5838111 , and he answers other questions too (have a look to our reasons for not giving so many directs or not filed FLīs).
And about the occasional priority given to Spanish companies over other foreign ones, I can only tell you that I have never, EVER, given priority to anybody because of the nationality of the carrier. I have witnessed this on very few occasions with some senior colleague. And I have been ranted MORE than on few ocassions by an Spanish pilot for not giving him priority. Seniors are more present in app sectors, of which I believe you complain more: Iīm not yet on that job, only an enroute ATCO.
Saludos!
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kick the tires wrote:
you havent commented on the many postings that are horrified at the behaviour of your colleagues on the video YOU gave to us............
you havent commented on the many postings that are horrified at the behaviour of your colleagues on the video YOU gave to us............
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post5835788
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ml#post5835838
Iīm starting to get bored with guys that donīt take their time to read all the information posted in this thread and in the thread at http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ion-spain.html
I happen to have many more important things to do than serve as a tutor.
Donīt just pass your eyes over the letters, try actually reading them!
Saludos!
p_perez,
those comments were made BEFORE you posted the link to your video.
Since then many posters have expressed outrage at the behaviour of your colleagues - THAT deserves comment does it not?
those comments were made BEFORE you posted the link to your video.
Since then many posters have expressed outrage at the behaviour of your colleagues - THAT deserves comment does it not?
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kick the tires wrote:
those comments were made BEFORE you posted the link to your video. (...)
those comments were made BEFORE you posted the link to your video. (...)
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ml#post5833827
Links of my comments to the videos:
28th July, 2010, 23:54 http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post5835788
29th July, 2010, 00:27 http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...ml#post5835838
kick the tires: first you say I didnīt comment on the commentaries on the video: I DID!
Second, you say my commentaries where made before I posted the link to the video: THEY WERE MADE AFTER!
kick the tires: stop wasting our time, you already showed yourself as a bigmouth. This is my last response to your trolling.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Perez you keep banging on about hate this and hate that and hate you for breathing and you're getting fed up with it.
I don't hate you, I don't know you. I'm sure nobody else hates you at all.
What I do not like is the attitude that your fellow countrymen, and for all I know you, displayed in that video. It is awful, completely and utterly. It's as far from professional as you can get.
You want respect? You need to earn it. You do that by doing your job, well. By not behaving like petulant children, especially in front of a camera.
None of this is personal but you are bearing the brunt of our despair because you have elected yourself to be the voice of Spanish ATC here on Pprune.
If you don't like it stop posting. We are the wrong audience for your plight.
That said I am sympathetic to your situation (despite what you may think) but what would you like me to do about it?
I don't hate you, I don't know you. I'm sure nobody else hates you at all.
What I do not like is the attitude that your fellow countrymen, and for all I know you, displayed in that video. It is awful, completely and utterly. It's as far from professional as you can get.
You want respect? You need to earn it. You do that by doing your job, well. By not behaving like petulant children, especially in front of a camera.
None of this is personal but you are bearing the brunt of our despair because you have elected yourself to be the voice of Spanish ATC here on Pprune.
If you don't like it stop posting. We are the wrong audience for your plight.
That said I am sympathetic to your situation (despite what you may think) but what would you like me to do about it?
pperez, You have NOT made any comments about the reaction from many pilots on this thread, what you have done is become rude and aggressive with a number of us.
How typically spanish! You scored an own goal with that video, have lost credibility and indeed the support you had from us within this debate so you stick your head in the sand, deny everything and then start to get aggressive!
Next you'll be saying that Spanish aircraft never get priority - oh, you've already said that!!!!
WE ARE NOT THE ENEMY!!!!!
How typically spanish! You scored an own goal with that video, have lost credibility and indeed the support you had from us within this debate so you stick your head in the sand, deny everything and then start to get aggressive!
Next you'll be saying that Spanish aircraft never get priority - oh, you've already said that!!!!
WE ARE NOT THE ENEMY!!!!!