Spanish ATC
Join Date: May 2010
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Kick the tires,
Many thanks for your support. When this nightmare ends, surely with lot of controllers being fired, and cutting salaries to 1500-2000€, (Remember lots of people with 30 year mortgages around 1500-1800€ in normal apartments, dammed real-state bubble)
Many controllers will look for another career, be sure about that. Sad ending for people that has been dedicated to get this job half a life.
Private companies will enter in the market. This is not bad. The bad things are how the goverment has imposed 3 Royal Decrees, with the worst t&C from England, The worst t&C from different countries.
Anyway, at least on my behalf, where I work, I can tell you: I make no differences between nationalities, and always speak English when there are Spanish/foreign traffics. This is always a little bit more difficult with some small GA traffics
Best regards,we will meet on the frecuency,
Cernicalo (Kestrel in spanish)
Many thanks for your support. When this nightmare ends, surely with lot of controllers being fired, and cutting salaries to 1500-2000€, (Remember lots of people with 30 year mortgages around 1500-1800€ in normal apartments, dammed real-state bubble)
Many controllers will look for another career, be sure about that. Sad ending for people that has been dedicated to get this job half a life.
Private companies will enter in the market. This is not bad. The bad things are how the goverment has imposed 3 Royal Decrees, with the worst t&C from England, The worst t&C from different countries.
Anyway, at least on my behalf, where I work, I can tell you: I make no differences between nationalities, and always speak English when there are Spanish/foreign traffics. This is always a little bit more difficult with some small GA traffics
Best regards,we will meet on the frecuency,
Cernicalo (Kestrel in spanish)
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Cernicalo, most of the pilots realise that this situation has to stop and I'm sure that all of them would support you if you didn't choose the wrong enemy in the first place. What do you expect from us if we have the idea and impression that you fight against us (and the passengers) instead of the government. Do you really think your prime minister cares about the fact that you give us a CTOT of 2 hours and more and affect the life of millions of families. The only thing you've reached so far is that everybody is against you and joe public looks at you as spoiled, overpaid childeren. Pilots, airlines and especially passengers are a strong group if they stick together but so far you havn't figured out how to get them behind you. One thing is for sure, the way you're handling it now doesn't get you anywhere.
My support (and that of the colleagues I'm flying with) you have but don't expect something from our side if you shoot at us all time.
Good luck.....
My support (and that of the colleagues I'm flying with) you have but don't expect something from our side if you shoot at us all time.
Good luck.....
Uniform, do you believe that pilots, airlines and Joe Public would care one iota if the Spanish controllers continued to provide 1st class service until they dropped dead? The answer would be a resounding NO, NO and NO. Working to rule is effectively working professionally.
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Avman, They probably wouldn't but you seem to forget that they are not the ones who try to bring your terms and conditions down. I don't expect a first class service but at least joe public would support you instead of turning there backs against you. Politicians will not listen to you but they would definitaly do when you had the Spanish population behind you because they need their vote. Good luck anyway
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Avman, do you think some pilots and airlines that are not spanish complaining will change anything?
I doubt that. They have to go on strike and make the spanish tourist industry suffer, thats the only way to make something happen. I guess the spanish ATCos are aware of the spanish economy and don´t wan´t to do harm, but ultimately they have to. Some never learn -> cutting costs is all good and well, but some services are essential to a modern state that on top of it lives at least partly from tourism...
I doubt that. They have to go on strike and make the spanish tourist industry suffer, thats the only way to make something happen. I guess the spanish ATCos are aware of the spanish economy and don´t wan´t to do harm, but ultimately they have to. Some never learn -> cutting costs is all good and well, but some services are essential to a modern state that on top of it lives at least partly from tourism...
Well at last the Spanish have decided to strike rather than play dangerous games with aircraft and the passengers inside them.
This thread would never have started if it had been any other Nation. We nearly all accept is that Spain is an ATC shambles. Whether it be due to general controlling issues, ridiculous vectoring and speed control in favour of their flag carriers or the recent "work to rule". Spain comes right at the bottom of any league table for controlling but they don't see this. We as pilots fly into a Spanish airport and then 2 hours later can be in northern Europe and having experienced the Spanish the professionalism of the Germans, swiss, Dutch and London controllers to name only a few is a welcome relief.
Some of the worst Spanish culprits should go and sit at an Amsterdam or London controllers desk for a shift and I truly think they would be embarrassed at the difference in attitude and professionalism on show.
If any of these nations controllers had been targeted in such a way for reductions in their T & Cs I would be 100% on their side. Unfortunately, when ever I see a Spanish destination on my roster I think here we go again.
I am genuinely pleased the Spanish have grown some nuts and decided to strike. The only problem is I am on days off and will not benefit from it.
This thread would never have started if it had been any other Nation. We nearly all accept is that Spain is an ATC shambles. Whether it be due to general controlling issues, ridiculous vectoring and speed control in favour of their flag carriers or the recent "work to rule". Spain comes right at the bottom of any league table for controlling but they don't see this. We as pilots fly into a Spanish airport and then 2 hours later can be in northern Europe and having experienced the Spanish the professionalism of the Germans, swiss, Dutch and London controllers to name only a few is a welcome relief.
Some of the worst Spanish culprits should go and sit at an Amsterdam or London controllers desk for a shift and I truly think they would be embarrassed at the difference in attitude and professionalism on show.
If any of these nations controllers had been targeted in such a way for reductions in their T & Cs I would be 100% on their side. Unfortunately, when ever I see a Spanish destination on my roster I think here we go again.
I am genuinely pleased the Spanish have grown some nuts and decided to strike. The only problem is I am on days off and will not benefit from it.
Pegase Driver
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Bomber harris : sorry, missed the sarcasm bit. apologies.
Studi : like in other subjects , never asume what is in the media is correct. the "astronomical" salaries published are nowhere near reality today for 90% of the controllers, 60 to 100.000/year gross is more likely and this mid to below the european average. In any case the strike is not about money at all , it is about working conditions changed since february . The 12 points the controllers are asking for , and theatening to strike for, are about 28 days a month schedules, reduced rest periods, last minute extra duties ,changes, sector capacities being measured instead or imposed, etc.. that sort of things you would not accept either.The mood in Spain in the OPS rooms is not what you would call serene and concentrating on the job. This is safety related and is worrying me a lot.
This evening the military replacement threat seems to be off ( Zapatero intervened ) but the media circus is still at full blast against the controllers.
The reality is that we will all have to work together again tomorrow, so a bit of understanding and solidarity is not out of order.
Seing you're from GER, when the next Cockpit VC Luthansa pilots strike will be announced,I will also be supporting it, like I supported the last one because in the long term , it is our interest to support each other.
Greetings from MAD.
ATC W
Studi : like in other subjects , never asume what is in the media is correct. the "astronomical" salaries published are nowhere near reality today for 90% of the controllers, 60 to 100.000/year gross is more likely and this mid to below the european average. In any case the strike is not about money at all , it is about working conditions changed since february . The 12 points the controllers are asking for , and theatening to strike for, are about 28 days a month schedules, reduced rest periods, last minute extra duties ,changes, sector capacities being measured instead or imposed, etc.. that sort of things you would not accept either.The mood in Spain in the OPS rooms is not what you would call serene and concentrating on the job. This is safety related and is worrying me a lot.
This evening the military replacement threat seems to be off ( Zapatero intervened ) but the media circus is still at full blast against the controllers.
The reality is that we will all have to work together again tomorrow, so a bit of understanding and solidarity is not out of order.
Seing you're from GER, when the next Cockpit VC Luthansa pilots strike will be announced,I will also be supporting it, like I supported the last one because in the long term , it is our interest to support each other.
Greetings from MAD.
ATC W
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ATC Watcher,
Thanks for giving your side of the story, but striking/work to rule aside, what do you think of the allegations that the standard of ATC in Spain and in particular MAD, is far below the standards of control in other european countries?
Thanks for giving your side of the story, but striking/work to rule aside, what do you think of the allegations that the standard of ATC in Spain and in particular MAD, is far below the standards of control in other european countries?
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... and support from this SLF and ex- aircraft engineer, too. My nephew trained up to assistant ATC status but has refused to continue to train as a full ATC - he says the stress isn't worth the money!
Studi, in my opinion you talk absolute tripe. To start with it's not a slow-go (sic) as you profess. Secondly, Spanish ATCOs I spoke to several years ago were already very unhappy and critical of the hours they worked and the lack of adequate leave they had then. Their employer's solution to the known problem was simply to dangle the overtime financial carrot which, because of poor management recruiting policies, eventually grew beyond reasonable proportions. ATCOs subsequently suffered draconian overnight changes imposed on them because of those many years of total management incompetence!
I think you need to get real.
I think you need to get real.
Join Date: May 2010
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Uniform,
Spanish controllers don't give you a CTOT of +2 hours. They make you to comply with the CTOT. If in some sectors, there are, in instance, 5 controllers, where usually are 9, then come the regulations... Regullations come for FMP in Brussels, we just make you to comply with the slot.
And lots of regulations some weeks ago came from France, and Spanish media and in the airports were said "Due to Controllers strike flights are being delayed or cancel....", with no precission with what was going on in France.
All the goverment and all the media in Spain are against the Air traffic controllers. And the real point is to show that "Nothing is working properly" to privatice the service.
Good idea coming for the big companies and banks that will buy our workplace very very cheap. We will see what will happen with our family life in the future....
PD: The France controllers seems that they realise they will be the next!. This game will be played in all Europe!
Spanish controllers don't give you a CTOT of +2 hours. They make you to comply with the CTOT. If in some sectors, there are, in instance, 5 controllers, where usually are 9, then come the regulations... Regullations come for FMP in Brussels, we just make you to comply with the slot.
And lots of regulations some weeks ago came from France, and Spanish media and in the airports were said "Due to Controllers strike flights are being delayed or cancel....", with no precission with what was going on in France.
All the goverment and all the media in Spain are against the Air traffic controllers. And the real point is to show that "Nothing is working properly" to privatice the service.
Good idea coming for the big companies and banks that will buy our workplace very very cheap. We will see what will happen with our family life in the future....
PD: The France controllers seems that they realise they will be the next!. This game will be played in all Europe!
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I'm not a pilot, nor an ATCo, so I'm probably horribly in the wrong here...
Can someone please explain me this:
hours/month: 160-200 (here and here)
hours/year: 1670-1750 (here and here)
If my maths are not wrong, Spanish ATCos should be getting at least 2 months of holidays and if the schedules are really tight - up to 4 months. So, once you're done with your required minimum - you should be able to just fly off to Bahamas for the rest of the year, or am I missing something?
I understand this is by far not ideal and rest is needed periodically, but surely this has to be taken into account.
Can someone please explain me this:
hours/month: 160-200 (here and here)
hours/year: 1670-1750 (here and here)
If my maths are not wrong, Spanish ATCos should be getting at least 2 months of holidays and if the schedules are really tight - up to 4 months. So, once you're done with your required minimum - you should be able to just fly off to Bahamas for the rest of the year, or am I missing something?
I understand this is by far not ideal and rest is needed periodically, but surely this has to be taken into account.
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I just looked at the video posted previously and have to say that I am not surprised.
Not long ago we were in the cruise over Spain and we could not get a response on the assigned frequency where we had previously established comms.
Thinking we had missed a call, gone out of range or had a comms failure, I asked my colleague to continue making calls while I called on 121.5.
Imagine my surprise when in the background of the "Station Calling Station Calling" I could hear my colleague calling.
5 seconds later all was normal and they could suddenly hear us again - Station Calling !!
---------------------------
If you would only know, how many times per day I have to call the crews over and over again, because they don't respond to my calls....
Not long ago we were in the cruise over Spain and we could not get a response on the assigned frequency where we had previously established comms.
Thinking we had missed a call, gone out of range or had a comms failure, I asked my colleague to continue making calls while I called on 121.5.
Imagine my surprise when in the background of the "Station Calling Station Calling" I could hear my colleague calling.
5 seconds later all was normal and they could suddenly hear us again - Station Calling !!
---------------------------
If you would only know, how many times per day I have to call the crews over and over again, because they don't respond to my calls....
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The news today is that AENA is going to the negotiating table with the Spanish ATCo Union with the proposal of guaranteeing a salary of a minimum of 200,000 Euros a year for the forseeable future (3 years)for the ATCo's to avoid the announced strike action.
There is already a new law which regulates their duties and rest periods and the British system of rosters for ATCo's has been largely copied.
In so far as the calculations of the hours to be worked by Spanish ATCo's , perhaps the following may give a better idea of the reality of the situation:
364 days in a year:
Less 52 Sundays
Less 52 Saturdays
Less 30 days holidays
Less 12 days local and national fiestas
Leaves a grand total of 218 "working" days.
The new law voted in democratically by all the Spanish Parliament with only one dissenting vote in February 2010 established the new T&C's that ATCo's could not work more than 1750 hours each year(which includes some overtime hours).
If we divide 1750 hours by 218 working days, we get the figure of 8 hours per working day, which is pretty good for a guaranteed salary of 200,000 Euros per year including 42 fiestas and holidays, which are also paid in full.
The Spanish ATCo's are saying that they are going on strike but not because of money. If they are only being asked to work 8 hours per day, which every other full time working human is expected to do (if not many more hours without any extra pay) for a very considerable salary of 200,000 euros, then perhaps someone could explain exactly what is the purpose of the announced strike.
Doubtless the response from them will be that we do not understand(which of course is quite true), or that greedy bankers are coming to buy out AENA for peanuts. But this has nothing to do with the ATCo's and if they feel so strongly about it then they should put their money where their mouth is and buy shares in AENA (for peanuts) when and if these are put up for sale. The sale of shares is open to everyone. The creation of ATC Companies is also open to everyone and the Spanish ATCo's have a priviledged position to create such companies to bid for the ATC service from AENA when the ATC service goes to private companies starting at some airports, as from next year.
Control Centers will be serviced by AENA and their ATCo's, so this service is safe for them for the future.
There is already a new law which regulates their duties and rest periods and the British system of rosters for ATCo's has been largely copied.
In so far as the calculations of the hours to be worked by Spanish ATCo's , perhaps the following may give a better idea of the reality of the situation:
364 days in a year:
Less 52 Sundays
Less 52 Saturdays
Less 30 days holidays
Less 12 days local and national fiestas
Leaves a grand total of 218 "working" days.
The new law voted in democratically by all the Spanish Parliament with only one dissenting vote in February 2010 established the new T&C's that ATCo's could not work more than 1750 hours each year(which includes some overtime hours).
If we divide 1750 hours by 218 working days, we get the figure of 8 hours per working day, which is pretty good for a guaranteed salary of 200,000 Euros per year including 42 fiestas and holidays, which are also paid in full.
The Spanish ATCo's are saying that they are going on strike but not because of money. If they are only being asked to work 8 hours per day, which every other full time working human is expected to do (if not many more hours without any extra pay) for a very considerable salary of 200,000 euros, then perhaps someone could explain exactly what is the purpose of the announced strike.
Doubtless the response from them will be that we do not understand(which of course is quite true), or that greedy bankers are coming to buy out AENA for peanuts. But this has nothing to do with the ATCo's and if they feel so strongly about it then they should put their money where their mouth is and buy shares in AENA (for peanuts) when and if these are put up for sale. The sale of shares is open to everyone. The creation of ATC Companies is also open to everyone and the Spanish ATCo's have a priviledged position to create such companies to bid for the ATC service from AENA when the ATC service goes to private companies starting at some airports, as from next year.
Control Centers will be serviced by AENA and their ATCo's, so this service is safe for them for the future.
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Not sure if it is worthwhile to continue preaching in the desert ....well, another try .
Mc Nulty : do not mix up direct routings and ATC services For me , and many others, ATC in Spain is safe so far. If the niceties like directs and RFLs are no longer given , it is a nuisance but just that, a nuisance.
I do not think ATS in Spain today is any worse than say , Italy , Morocco or Portugal, to take 3 of its neighbors.
Studi, you made up your mind already, so no point in giving you a different opinion or facts correct ?
But allow me one remark , from my pilot side ; you said :
My experience is that the vast majority of the pilots that did strike for their rights still do enjoy a good employment, it is rather the ones that backed down and followed their management to the wall that did not. I can name a few airlines here.
Djerba Devil : the 200.000/year in the press in Spain this morning is another decoy. Nothing like that was proposed during the negotiations with USCA . Someone is preparing the ground ( and the public) for some drastic measures I'd say.
Finally a small anecdote I'd like to share with you : On my return flight home this evening from MAD, long talk with the Captain comparing the fate of Spanish ATC and that of Spanair . Franco died 35 years ago exactly, but the working conditions when he was in charge are back for both professions 35 years later, and re-enforced by a socialist government....
Mc Nulty : do not mix up direct routings and ATC services For me , and many others, ATC in Spain is safe so far. If the niceties like directs and RFLs are no longer given , it is a nuisance but just that, a nuisance.
I do not think ATS in Spain today is any worse than say , Italy , Morocco or Portugal, to take 3 of its neighbors.
Studi, you made up your mind already, so no point in giving you a different opinion or facts correct ?
But allow me one remark , from my pilot side ; you said :
so every pilot who is on strike risks his own job in the long run
Djerba Devil : the 200.000/year in the press in Spain this morning is another decoy. Nothing like that was proposed during the negotiations with USCA . Someone is preparing the ground ( and the public) for some drastic measures I'd say.
Finally a small anecdote I'd like to share with you : On my return flight home this evening from MAD, long talk with the Captain comparing the fate of Spanish ATC and that of Spanair . Franco died 35 years ago exactly, but the working conditions when he was in charge are back for both professions 35 years later, and re-enforced by a socialist government....
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the strike is not about money at all
That made me laugh!!
I do not think ATS in Spain today is any worse than say , Italy , Morocco or Portugal, to take 3 of its neighbors.
