Spanish ATC
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@ Calypso: With "perception of bad service" I was refering to issues as stated earlier by Dogsbreath where a bad service is percieved by the pilot when under closer scrutiny it was something unavoidable.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge that there is a considerable room for improvement in spanish ATC, I'm just stating that regadless of whether there is a REAL issue (which I believe there is), just the PERCEPTION of a bad service should be enough to make some changes.
As you all know, since February the conditions have gone down the drain for spanish controllers with inevitable repercussions on the service provided. It is simply not realistic to expect the same level of quality when the one providing it is exhausted and close to emotional breakdown while also in shear fear for his/her job.
I want to hammer down this last point: you do not want to provide any excuses for your company to fire you, so if they say planes have to fly standard routes, they will. If they say strict slot adherence, so be it. For you it's a delay for the spanish ATC it may be their job... However, I am sure that there is also a certain single-minded vindicationism on that attitude since it is obvious that this kind of work will hurt the company in the long run.
You may say it would be best for those so affected to request medical assistance or simply quit the job. You may know about the medical leaves in august, and you may have also heard that over 10% of current ATC staff has requested contract extinction.
In any case, even before draconian measures were imposed on spanish ATC the service provided had a thourughly bad reputation.
Several issues mentioned in this thread should be addressed to correct that, but some are simply not feasible in a reasonable timeframe (for example, as Cericalo mentioned, the need to use spanish to increase security as most spaniards are not sufficiently fluent in english... and this is more related to pilots than to ATC)
I'm not refusing to acknowledge that there is a considerable room for improvement in spanish ATC, I'm just stating that regadless of whether there is a REAL issue (which I believe there is), just the PERCEPTION of a bad service should be enough to make some changes.
As you all know, since February the conditions have gone down the drain for spanish controllers with inevitable repercussions on the service provided. It is simply not realistic to expect the same level of quality when the one providing it is exhausted and close to emotional breakdown while also in shear fear for his/her job.
I want to hammer down this last point: you do not want to provide any excuses for your company to fire you, so if they say planes have to fly standard routes, they will. If they say strict slot adherence, so be it. For you it's a delay for the spanish ATC it may be their job... However, I am sure that there is also a certain single-minded vindicationism on that attitude since it is obvious that this kind of work will hurt the company in the long run.
You may say it would be best for those so affected to request medical assistance or simply quit the job. You may know about the medical leaves in august, and you may have also heard that over 10% of current ATC staff has requested contract extinction.
In any case, even before draconian measures were imposed on spanish ATC the service provided had a thourughly bad reputation.
Several issues mentioned in this thread should be addressed to correct that, but some are simply not feasible in a reasonable timeframe (for example, as Cericalo mentioned, the need to use spanish to increase security as most spaniards are not sufficiently fluent in english... and this is more related to pilots than to ATC)
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My oh my ! this thread is become an attack-defense between Spanish controllers and what appears to be some UK pilots . I say “ appears to be " : as since this forum is anonymous, we have no guarantee that those “ remarks against Spanish ATC” are truly coming from ATPL s of just Microsoft FS users. And if indeed they are coming from ATPL holders , perhaps, who knows, they all come from the same airline with an attitude problem.
I must say , I know quite a lot of UK ATPLs and they most are far too educated and polite to use some of the language posted here. So I have my doubts. While following this thread episodically , I kept wondering how the community would feel if we controllers opened a thread on the “professional behaviors” of Airline X ?
After all we are surely they best to judge, since we control all the airlines, and there is a huge difference between the best ( in our eyes) and a few others. You’ll be surprised.
After all some of you seem to be able to “ judge” if ATC is “ good ‘ or “ bad” based on the number of direct routings and RFLs if gets ? Maybe we controllers should judge if an airline is “ good “ or “ bad” based on similarly futile criteria.
Back to the title : Spanish ATC : What do you want to achieve ? get the Spanish controllers really P..ed off ? Their management has already done this for them. So do you think adding to the pot will improve the situation in the future ?
Understanding one another is one of the strong points of PPruNe . Having a go at each each other will get us nowhere , with the best contributors leaving this thread for another with a more professional attitude/debate..
I personally would kindly invite everyone who wants to understand how ATC works and what it is there for , to reflect on a few basics :
1) ATC is there because there are aircraft and pilots , not the other way around, and controllers should never forget the notion of “service “ . We are here primarily to help and facilitate.
2) Commercial Air crews should remember that they are not alone in the sky and that there are other airspace users such as general aviation, Military and other airlines, that need equally to be served, and other constraints , like airspace avoidance to be taken into account in “refusing “ you your wishes. Flow management is a latter addition to restrict your perceived “ freedom “.
3) Finally , to make an airline aircraft fly today , it need the cooperation and good will from a hundred of staff. Pilots are only one tiny part of it, and respecting the others down the line that allow you to fly would help both punctuality and safety. Showing arrogance and disrespect to one group will bite you back one day.
That reminds me of an old anecdote in the old days of US Air. When a Captain asked the dispatch in Pittsburg if that was HIS aircraft there , a particular Ops lady used to reply : “sorry Sir, that one belongs to US Air….” Made it all around the Internet now as a joke , but she was basically right: no-one own anything, it’s all part of a big effort by everyone to make you fly. A pilot does not owns an airplane , but my fellow controllers, a controller does not owns an airspace as well.
I must say , I know quite a lot of UK ATPLs and they most are far too educated and polite to use some of the language posted here. So I have my doubts. While following this thread episodically , I kept wondering how the community would feel if we controllers opened a thread on the “professional behaviors” of Airline X ?
After all we are surely they best to judge, since we control all the airlines, and there is a huge difference between the best ( in our eyes) and a few others. You’ll be surprised.
After all some of you seem to be able to “ judge” if ATC is “ good ‘ or “ bad” based on the number of direct routings and RFLs if gets ? Maybe we controllers should judge if an airline is “ good “ or “ bad” based on similarly futile criteria.
Back to the title : Spanish ATC : What do you want to achieve ? get the Spanish controllers really P..ed off ? Their management has already done this for them. So do you think adding to the pot will improve the situation in the future ?
Understanding one another is one of the strong points of PPruNe . Having a go at each each other will get us nowhere , with the best contributors leaving this thread for another with a more professional attitude/debate..
I personally would kindly invite everyone who wants to understand how ATC works and what it is there for , to reflect on a few basics :
1) ATC is there because there are aircraft and pilots , not the other way around, and controllers should never forget the notion of “service “ . We are here primarily to help and facilitate.
2) Commercial Air crews should remember that they are not alone in the sky and that there are other airspace users such as general aviation, Military and other airlines, that need equally to be served, and other constraints , like airspace avoidance to be taken into account in “refusing “ you your wishes. Flow management is a latter addition to restrict your perceived “ freedom “.
3) Finally , to make an airline aircraft fly today , it need the cooperation and good will from a hundred of staff. Pilots are only one tiny part of it, and respecting the others down the line that allow you to fly would help both punctuality and safety. Showing arrogance and disrespect to one group will bite you back one day.
That reminds me of an old anecdote in the old days of US Air. When a Captain asked the dispatch in Pittsburg if that was HIS aircraft there , a particular Ops lady used to reply : “sorry Sir, that one belongs to US Air….” Made it all around the Internet now as a joke , but she was basically right: no-one own anything, it’s all part of a big effort by everyone to make you fly. A pilot does not owns an airplane , but my fellow controllers, a controller does not owns an airspace as well.
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Cernicalo,
I'd like to confirm but, being French, I never understand my English trainers
. Not more when they try to explain me where they are from... (they speak English !) 
We will not be the next... we ARE next.
In your 6 o'clock, we can feel your wake turbulence !
(*) As far as I know, The French controllers have English training with English native speakers all over their career. No, sorry, in Spain, we haven't. A French controller can confirm that please?
. Not more when they try to explain me where they are from... (they speak English !)
And sorry for you, fellow French controllers, you will be the next... So you know what it is going on with us in Spain.
In your 6 o'clock, we can feel your wake turbulence !
Last edited by BrATCO; 21st Sep 2010 at 23:11.
Just to be clear here, not all of those contributing are UK ATPLs, quite a lot of criticism has come from Germany. I would however say that over the last couple of weeks I have noticed an improvement in Palma. Maybe I am imagining things or just got lucky, but I hope it stays this way.
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Going nowhere
Hi there.
This thread appears to be going nowhere as far as I'm concerned. Yes, there is plenty of room for improvement and no, we are not all like most of you want to depict us. Most of my colleagues are very professional ATCO's and a lot of them (fewer nowadays) used to go to any lengths in order to give the best possible service.
I already gave a brief summary of the situation we are going through (page 22 - http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...sh-atc-22.html) and things have not improved since. The second week of August we came to a temporary agreement with our ANSP (to allow the collective bargaining of long T&C's to be held throughout the rest of the year) and since then they have already failed to comply with their obligations.
I'll check this thread every so often just in case I can be of any help to anyone with a particular request or to shed some light on a given issue. However, as long as the general bashing and moaning continues I don't feel like really coming back too often.
Oh, one last thing. We are still waiting to receive a single visit of any one of you when off duty and touring the city on holidays!! Unfortunately our ANSP has now restricted most visits, including the press by the way, and it is very difficult to obtain an authorization. We could give it a try anyway.
This thread appears to be going nowhere as far as I'm concerned. Yes, there is plenty of room for improvement and no, we are not all like most of you want to depict us. Most of my colleagues are very professional ATCO's and a lot of them (fewer nowadays) used to go to any lengths in order to give the best possible service.
I already gave a brief summary of the situation we are going through (page 22 - http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...sh-atc-22.html) and things have not improved since. The second week of August we came to a temporary agreement with our ANSP (to allow the collective bargaining of long T&C's to be held throughout the rest of the year) and since then they have already failed to comply with their obligations.
I'll check this thread every so often just in case I can be of any help to anyone with a particular request or to shed some light on a given issue. However, as long as the general bashing and moaning continues I don't feel like really coming back too often.
Oh, one last thing. We are still waiting to receive a single visit of any one of you when off duty and touring the city on holidays!! Unfortunately our ANSP has now restricted most visits, including the press by the way, and it is very difficult to obtain an authorization. We could give it a try anyway.
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May as well add my tuppence worth, I suppose.
Spanish ATC:
1. Quite often make zero response when called.
2. Make more mistakes than non-Spanish. For example recently we found ourselves very close to an a/c in front of us who had stopped his descent for some reason. The ATCO had not noticed.
3. They have secondrate English and the R/T discipline in Spain is poor. Lots of crossed tx and jabbering away for long periods in Spanish.
I think the ATC there is the worst I have experienced.
Spanish ATC:
1. Quite often make zero response when called.
2. Make more mistakes than non-Spanish. For example recently we found ourselves very close to an a/c in front of us who had stopped his descent for some reason. The ATCO had not noticed.
3. They have secondrate English and the R/T discipline in Spain is poor. Lots of crossed tx and jabbering away for long periods in Spanish.
I think the ATC there is the worst I have experienced.
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to 10W and co. If, it is controler discretion how come that discrection is, so poor. If, the idea about the -5 +10 on your CTOT is to, ajust for sequence or flow then, use it!!! If, 4 A/C taxi-out and a 5th is ready at the same time what happens then. From what I have seen that flight loses it´s CTOT! So, one minute after the 15mins taxi time in (as, an example) PMI (LEPA) means the A/C cannot push-back and start? You might be doing your job at controling but, discretion wise, hmmm!!! To get 4 A/C airborne and leaving a 2 min. seperation (heavies) you whould need in practice 8mins plus +/- 50secs for each T/O. For 5,6 or 7 imagine. So, where does the logic come into play, when you, want to be strict and let planes take of at the exact CTOT. The whole idea about the -5 +10min. is to ajust these problems...use that discretion!!!!
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MPH: I would point out that the specific incidence about CTOTs is only recent and may be only caused due to strict adherence to rules.
In an efficient and relaxed work atmosphere, you understand your function as a tool to make a system work. Therefore you can use a certain flexibility in order to help the process as a whole.
However, if you are scared of your company which is only waiting for any excuse to start disciplinary actions against you, you will follow instructions to the letter.
Most will draw a line when it comes to company orders which conflict with security (and there have been quite a few of them) but efficiency and customer satisfaction is currently at the very bottom of the priority list. Survival first, sorry.
(By the way, I would not rule out that a part of the bad job is directly intended to cause you delays. If your companies start to have losses then the complains will eventually land on our minister's desk (like those from hotel managers three weeks ago when spanish atc were considering a strike). You can not negotiate unless both sides have something to loose if they don't)
In an efficient and relaxed work atmosphere, you understand your function as a tool to make a system work. Therefore you can use a certain flexibility in order to help the process as a whole.
However, if you are scared of your company which is only waiting for any excuse to start disciplinary actions against you, you will follow instructions to the letter.
Most will draw a line when it comes to company orders which conflict with security (and there have been quite a few of them) but efficiency and customer satisfaction is currently at the very bottom of the priority list. Survival first, sorry.
(By the way, I would not rule out that a part of the bad job is directly intended to cause you delays. If your companies start to have losses then the complains will eventually land on our minister's desk (like those from hotel managers three weeks ago when spanish atc were considering a strike). You can not negotiate unless both sides have something to loose if they don't)
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Daermon ATC: I understand the situation! What I can not see is, how can you or a Spanish ATC supervisors punish an individual for using discrection in controling a sequence or flow situation. Putting pressure on airlines does not take away your duty to facilitate air traffic and ajust accordingly? We are talking about economy,schedul´s, co2 emissions, crew fatigue, etc.
Topslide6.....
Since Aug 2009 Spanish AIP has classified B757 and 737-800/900 as HEAVY when being followed by another aircraft and MEDIUM when they follow another aircraft.
So 2 minutes on take off and 5 miles on landing is appropriate in Spanish airspace in your lower series 737
But you probably knew that really didn't you
Since Aug 2009 Spanish AIP has classified B757 and 737-800/900 as HEAVY when being followed by another aircraft and MEDIUM when they follow another aircraft.
So 2 minutes on take off and 5 miles on landing is appropriate in Spanish airspace in your lower series 737
But you probably knew that really didn't you
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Topslide
Perhaps the Spanish have filed a difference with ICAO as in THIS example from the UK
Perhaps the Spanish have filed a difference with ICAO as in THIS example from the UK
State Variations to ICAO Wake Turbulence Category
States may elect to operate variations to the ICAO scheme if they wish. One example of this is the UK where the main differences are the re-definition of the lower weight end of the ICAO ‘MEDIUM’ category:
An extra category called ‘SMALL’ is defined as aircraft types with an MTOM (maximum take-off mass) of between 17000 kg and 40000 kg
The ‘LIGHT’ Category defined in the ICAO scheme is extended to cover aircraft types with an MTOM of up to 17000 kg
In addition an ‘UPPER MEDIUM’ aircraft type category is defined from within the ICAO ‘MEDIUM’ category (only) for approaches made at EGLL EGKK EGSS and EGCC.
States may elect to operate variations to the ICAO scheme if they wish. One example of this is the UK where the main differences are the re-definition of the lower weight end of the ICAO ‘MEDIUM’ category:
An extra category called ‘SMALL’ is defined as aircraft types with an MTOM (maximum take-off mass) of between 17000 kg and 40000 kg
The ‘LIGHT’ Category defined in the ICAO scheme is extended to cover aircraft types with an MTOM of up to 17000 kg
In addition an ‘UPPER MEDIUM’ aircraft type category is defined from within the ICAO ‘MEDIUM’ category (only) for approaches made at EGLL EGKK EGSS and EGCC.
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Hello Topslide6,
In Spain, in the flight strips appears 737-800H. We have been instructed to consider 737-800 as heavy, so don't blame the controllers. I don't know who is responsible, but We have to follow the RCA and if is heavy, is heavy. It is not due to the weight, is due to the wake turbulence, we have been told have a very similar wing to the 757.
And something maybe you forget. 737-800 (and 757 as well) is medium traffic when follows another, but is heavy when has somebody behind.
737-800H departs, and a second 737-800H departs 2 minutes later due to wake turbulence.
You must remember, of course, that in Spain I regularly get told (and I quote), "traffic in front is a 737-800 heavy, caution wake turbulence" when flying a different series version of the same aeroplane.
I suspect someone in Spain needs to have a word with ICAO over their wake turbulence catagorisation criteria.
I suspect someone in Spain needs to have a word with ICAO over their wake turbulence catagorisation criteria.
And something maybe you forget. 737-800 (and 757 as well) is medium traffic when follows another, but is heavy when has somebody behind.
737-800H departs, and a second 737-800H departs 2 minutes later due to wake turbulence.
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MCRM
Does CRM concepts apply to relations between flight crew and air traffic controller too?
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Still no directs
I realize that has been posted earlier but..
Does anyone have more info on this AENA directive not to provide directs ?
ATC Still not giving firects costing the airlines 1000´s of kgs of fuel.
Does AENA not care at all about the extra tons of carbon they through their own inompetence are putting needlessly into the environment ?
What about the environment ?
AENA has definitely got to wake up and grow up.
In Barcelona constant training underway.
Still people arriving with sub standard level of English.
Something worng with the selection process of Controllers in Spain.
They writre Lots of exams to be a controller.
But a number lack that ability to make quick calculations and being sharp which is different from the one who exceeds in written Exams on air law.
Does anyone have more info on this AENA directive not to provide directs ?
ATC Still not giving firects costing the airlines 1000´s of kgs of fuel.
Does AENA not care at all about the extra tons of carbon they through their own inompetence are putting needlessly into the environment ?
What about the environment ?
AENA has definitely got to wake up and grow up.
In Barcelona constant training underway.
Still people arriving with sub standard level of English.
Something worng with the selection process of Controllers in Spain.
They writre Lots of exams to be a controller.
But a number lack that ability to make quick calculations and being sharp which is different from the one who exceeds in written Exams on air law.
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An remember: Spanish is ICAO... The same than English, Russian, French, Arabic and Chinese. Anyway, always I have one English speaker traffic, and I consider He needs to know what it is going one, becuase affects (sometimes minimum affects) I will speak to all in English. I have tried to speak with ALL in English, the result is not so good, some local pilots have problems with readbacks and with General Aviation the results could be catastrophic... I prefer speak twice Spanish/English and Everybody will be informed in both languages!
.........nice way of directing the blame away from those that deserve it.
And can someone please tell me why the only times I have to tell ATC to move their cell phones away from their mikes is when I'm in Spanish air space?
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why do sids n stars when its VMC
choumby:why do sids n stars when its VMC,its waste of time n fuel......
Unless of course you can 100% guarantee that you can see every single aircraft, TCAS or not, that you can predict their trajectory, their closure rate, their intension - all in 3D. Oh, and what they will do and at what speed when they reach the FAF and have a bun flight jockeying for position on finals.
Spanish ATC are very poor, embarrassingly so at times. They are inflexible and blinkered to a short period of time and unable, or unwilling, to put some effort into predicting a traffic flow on the ground or in the air - unless there is a Spanish aircraft involved. In this case they are often very skilled at getting them as number one, all to the detriment of everyone else in the skies.
Sadly you get used to it. That said, they do seem a lot happier these days (in Madrid) and we have had a few directs over the past few days. I've also heard some controllers quote the AENA directive to many frustrated pilots!
Last edited by kick the tires; 19th Sep 2010 at 08:29.