Spanish ATC
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That may be the theory but in Spain this means the cousin, son, brother, neighbor, etc, etc of those that do the selection will get the job. In any case the present system is plainly not working as it produces a large number of controllers of very low quality. In some cases due to a poor attitude.
.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: SV Marie Celeste
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That is also the case in some airlines but passengers at least have the choice of which airline to fly. Pilots are also the first ones to arrive at the accident so they tend to take a greater interest...
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Until now first people had to pass a tough selection process and then, and only then, if they were the top of the stack they would be picked to be trained
As an anecdote, we used to have fun in Spain by asking the controller unusual (but perfectly legitimate) questions and try to guess what nonsensical answer we would get. My favourite was "request activation status of danger area LE-XXX"--typical answers were "affirm, you are cleared to FLXXX", "contact Marseille on ...." (wrong country, my friend!), or the all-time popular "say again?"
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: a shack on a hill
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Computers - rubbish in, rubbish programming, rubbish out
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: a shack on a hill
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That may be the theory but in Spain this means the cousin, son, brother, neighbor, etc, etc of those that do the selection will get the job. In any case the present system is plainly not working as it produces a large number of controllers of very low quality. In some cases due to a poor attitude (I passed the very difficult entry barrier, I paid my dues and now I own this job) or with very poor ability. The training cannot be much worse and they are not even taught how to speak properly into a microphone (It amazes me how many times the volume is illegible because they are simply not speaking into the microphone)
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Calyso:
That is the problem with these threads they seem the favorite hiding place for bigots, North European supremacists, rancid british patriots and generally the uninformed and prejudiced. A shame really since there is a serious issue here and those attitudes also provide and excellent excuse for the same controllers not to listen
That is the problem with these threads they seem the favorite hiding place for bigots, North European supremacists, rancid british patriots and generally the uninformed and prejudiced. A shame really since there is a serious issue here and those attitudes also provide and excellent excuse for the same controllers not to listen
And the favourite hiding place of all-inclusive equalitarians who fly across Spain with their fingers in their ears shouting loudly: "this is just as good as LHR, AMS and FFT - this is just as good as LHR, AMS and FFT - this is just as good as LHR, AMS and FFT"
.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Spain
Age: 73
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello, Silverstrata,
As maybe we talked each other in AGP, Could you please, write all the phrase: "Controllers on the job... training monitored"
This is because, when new people arrives at the tower, of course, we have to train them,
Cheers
Quote: from Silverstrata
Ahhh - well when you go into AGP the ATIS often says "controllers on the job".
So now you know what they are doing.....
As maybe we talked each other in AGP, Could you please, write all the phrase: "Controllers on the job... training monitored"
This is because, when new people arrives at the tower, of course, we have to train them,
Cheers
Quote: from Silverstrata
Ahhh - well when you go into AGP the ATIS often says "controllers on the job".
So now you know what they are doing.....
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spain belongs to Africa, geologically and historically. Don't get fooled by Spain (or Greece, or Portugal) being a member of the EU. TIA!
The former 'recruiting' system was appalling, unfair and it has obviously not produced great results in terms of safe, orderly and expeditious air traffic service. I have to also admit (being Spanish and having lived in the UK for a while) that unfortunately in Spain, not only in aviation but in general 'who you know' gets you much further than 'what you know'.(by this I am not implying that every controller in Spain didn't work hard or didn't have the skills to do the job)
That is why many Spanish professionals go abroad (mainly in EU) to find opportunities to develop their careers and make the most otf their skills and be justly rewarded for it. Some, to your amazement, have ended up being controllers in the UK and can actually make themselves understood in English.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NeverLand
Age: 24
Posts: 161
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also agree that the previous selection system in Spain left room for improvement. There needed to be a change...just not this one. I think we've taken a step in the wrong direction. As some rightly pointed out, you were tested but you weren't tested in how good you were as a controller. I.e. why on earth the university degree? Personally I was being trained in the EUROCONTROL institute in Luxembourg when I had just turned 20 (no Einstein here,I'm implying I did not have a degree by then).
But at least you were tested on some things which were close to the mark. Nowadays forget about it. Only way ahead will be if you have the ca$h.
About the racism issue: it does exist. Not this a place to debate it so how about we focus on the issue at hand and we try to be constructive. I did a skydiving course some time ago and one of my instructors told me that it was surprising how many people ended up crashing against a particular tree that was near the landing field. It was a big field with just this one tree in view. It turned out so many people, on final with the chute, fixated on the problem (the tree) rather than the solution (anywere else) that because they were so fixated on it they ended up smashing into it. To all of they guys complaining "for the sake of it" bring some solutions too, maybe someone will like some of them and do something about fixing this situation.
(I particularly like the idea of the bringing the team of foreigners, but just don't think it is completely feasible just like that, but definitely there should be more inter-agencies cooperation; kinda best practices system, learn from who does it best sort of thing...I know, PMI, AGP are not LHR, FRA etc, so save the differences, but many things can be done all the same in many different places).
A.
But at least you were tested on some things which were close to the mark. Nowadays forget about it. Only way ahead will be if you have the ca$h.
About the racism issue: it does exist. Not this a place to debate it so how about we focus on the issue at hand and we try to be constructive. I did a skydiving course some time ago and one of my instructors told me that it was surprising how many people ended up crashing against a particular tree that was near the landing field. It was a big field with just this one tree in view. It turned out so many people, on final with the chute, fixated on the problem (the tree) rather than the solution (anywere else) that because they were so fixated on it they ended up smashing into it. To all of they guys complaining "for the sake of it" bring some solutions too, maybe someone will like some of them and do something about fixing this situation.
(I particularly like the idea of the bringing the team of foreigners, but just don't think it is completely feasible just like that, but definitely there should be more inter-agencies cooperation; kinda best practices system, learn from who does it best sort of thing...I know, PMI, AGP are not LHR, FRA etc, so save the differences, but many things can be done all the same in many different places).
A.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: a shack on a hill
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
However, your comment heavy.airbourne is just out of order
It seems that I did not make myself clear: I am not speaking against the individual controller, I am rather complaining about the quality and the efficiency of the system in the countries mentioned. I admit there might be really good greek, italian, spanish controllers (most probably working abroad), and I prefer spanish ATC over ATC in Chad, though these is easy, really. But there are a lot of similarities if you compare with Nigeria, Domrep, India etc. Overall, ATC in Spain, Italy, and Greece gives the impression of being in a third world country like those mentioned above. This has nothing to do with racism on my side, but rather with lack of work ethics and the resulting level of professionalism on their side. Hey, if they were doing their jobs properly, nobody would be complaining. Right?
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: L.A.
Age: 56
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
andrijander :
About the racism issue: it does exist. Not this a place to debate it so how about we focus on the issue at hand and we try to be constructive.
About the racism issue: it does exist. Not this a place to debate it so how about we focus on the issue at hand and we try to be constructive.
Oh, dear. Always a good sign of someone losing the argument, when they play the race-card. Sorry, that card does not wash any more.
Firstly, this cannot be racism as most Spanish are Caucasian. Or do you confuse racism with nationalism?
Secondly, this cannot be racism/nationalism as the contributors here have clearly explained that many European and world ATC centers are very good. This is merely an honest opinion of good controlling vs poor controlling, and nothing to do with any inherent bias or any 'isms'.
IMHO:
Good = Scandinavia, Benelux, Germanic, Eastern Europe (in general, but gets worse the further east one goes), Baltic, N America and surprisingly Italy (except they speak too fast).
Bad = France (wrong language), Spain (dubious instructions), Greece (can they replace their 1950s crystal radio sets?), N Africa ('nuff said), Turkey (try hard, but heavy accent), Eastern Med (ditto N Africa), Russia (heavy accent), and many RAF stations (slow).
It might be nice to have an exchange program across Europe, to homogenise standards. I would just love to see an AGP controller on LGW TWR freq for a month
Seriously, this would be the only way to demonstrate and cure the problems we have in the 'bad' locations..
Last edited by silverstrata; 29th Jun 2010 at 10:54.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: moon
Age: 42
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well, im from spain and can agree to a lot of things said here.
but i think the main issue is the way the ATCs have been trained so far....
The idea was to make applicants study everything or almost everything b4 the formation and make sure they had a FIRST certificate level of english.
what this leaded to was to an incredible ammount of good students trying to get the job, by memorizing the texts and subjects.
So memory monsters would get perfect scores and with a mid-low level of english the place to develope in the trainning centers.
what happened then, was that some of those students didnt have the abstract and spacial abilities to do the job.
what they are doing starting this year (july 2010) is the opposite, testing on aptitude (memory, spacial and abstract) and a much higher level of english, something in between advanced and proficiency (bt 5 and 6 out of 6 on cambridge scale).
So therefore in some years time from now , we should see some improvement in the spanish CTs as newer blood arrives .
(hopefully im one of them as im going to madrid to take the FEAST during this month)
but i think the main issue is the way the ATCs have been trained so far....
The idea was to make applicants study everything or almost everything b4 the formation and make sure they had a FIRST certificate level of english.
what this leaded to was to an incredible ammount of good students trying to get the job, by memorizing the texts and subjects.
So memory monsters would get perfect scores and with a mid-low level of english the place to develope in the trainning centers.
what happened then, was that some of those students didnt have the abstract and spacial abilities to do the job.
what they are doing starting this year (july 2010) is the opposite, testing on aptitude (memory, spacial and abstract) and a much higher level of english, something in between advanced and proficiency (bt 5 and 6 out of 6 on cambridge scale).
So therefore in some years time from now , we should see some improvement in the spanish CTs as newer blood arrives .
(hopefully im one of them as im going to madrid to take the FEAST during this month)
Guest
Posts: n/a
I am really not in a position to comment about the current situation in Spanish ATC. I have read a variety of inputs from both sides of the argument, both here and elsewhere and it seems to me that there are a good number of inconsistencies between the positions being espoused.
Looking specifically at the safety issue - as opposed to the multitude of contributory factors that might affect safety - it seems puzzling that no-one has mentioned any involvement the national regulator or National Supervisory Authority have and what, if any, actions they are taking. On the face of it, assuming that there really is a safety issue at stake, it would appear that the regulator/NSA is not actually doing its job. Is this correct?
It is, perhaps, interesting to note that there is an ICAO Universal Safety Oversight Audit of Spain scheduled for early July. Whilst this is most unlikely to result in any immediate changes to the situation, maybe it presents an opportunity to get an independent view on how Spain is providing its civil aviation services and how effectively it is conducting oversight of safety matters.
Looking specifically at the safety issue - as opposed to the multitude of contributory factors that might affect safety - it seems puzzling that no-one has mentioned any involvement the national regulator or National Supervisory Authority have and what, if any, actions they are taking. On the face of it, assuming that there really is a safety issue at stake, it would appear that the regulator/NSA is not actually doing its job. Is this correct?
It is, perhaps, interesting to note that there is an ICAO Universal Safety Oversight Audit of Spain scheduled for early July. Whilst this is most unlikely to result in any immediate changes to the situation, maybe it presents an opportunity to get an independent view on how Spain is providing its civil aviation services and how effectively it is conducting oversight of safety matters.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cernicalo
As maybe we talked each other in AGP, Could you please, write all the phrase: "Controllers on the job... training monitored
lol,,, when I hear that in Spain I cant but help write down idiot in training when copying down the ATIS.
As maybe we talked each other in AGP, Could you please, write all the phrase: "Controllers on the job... training monitored
lol,,, when I hear that in Spain I cant but help write down idiot in training when copying down the ATIS.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
zerotohero:
"when I hear that in Spain I cant but help write down idiot in training when copying down the ATIS."
"when I hear that in Spain I cant but help write down idiot in training when copying down the ATIS."
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I havenīt read the whole tread, but I just want to express my opinion about the use of native language in Spain, Greece, France etc. (basically the part of Europe where one stands up to take a dump).
IT IS ANNOYING - to say the least. Any pilot paid to fly should be professional enough to speak English while at work, that would force ATC to do the same.
I may be wasting my time here, as I suspect the people my frustration is aimed at may not even read this, because;
a) it is in English, and
b) because this website is for professional pilots
IT IS ANNOYING - to say the least. Any pilot paid to fly should be professional enough to speak English while at work, that would force ATC to do the same.
I may be wasting my time here, as I suspect the people my frustration is aimed at may not even read this, because;
a) it is in English, and
b) because this website is for professional pilots
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Where the company needs me not where I want to be!
Posts: 399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
p_perez
I don't know them personally but I do know them professionally as I fly in the airspace they work and they are idiots, there unsafe to do the job, they have no understanding of flow control at all and I have said it before and will say it again, I would trust a gypsy with my wallet before I trust them with my life. PERIOD
On another note, it may not been down to the fact that there idiots in general, that would be just saying all Spanish are idiots which I know not to be true, It may be the fact the training they receive is sub standard and the examining system is again sub standard, If I feel safe in UK airspace, French, German, Swiss, etc etc why is it on a daily basis that they are the only controllers I get frustrated at for been so useless??? please tell me!
Honestly tell me!
I don't know them personally but I do know them professionally as I fly in the airspace they work and they are idiots, there unsafe to do the job, they have no understanding of flow control at all and I have said it before and will say it again, I would trust a gypsy with my wallet before I trust them with my life. PERIOD
On another note, it may not been down to the fact that there idiots in general, that would be just saying all Spanish are idiots which I know not to be true, It may be the fact the training they receive is sub standard and the examining system is again sub standard, If I feel safe in UK airspace, French, German, Swiss, etc etc why is it on a daily basis that they are the only controllers I get frustrated at for been so useless??? please tell me!
Honestly tell me!
zerotohero
and
Perhaps you should go back to class as well?? In case you still haven't realised, here is a little test for you:
They're/their/there
There is no need to go on at the Spanish in such a bitter way. I am no great fan of the ATC here in Madrid, but had a very nice day out today - a couple of directs, not stopped on taxiway to let Iberia through and a lot of hellos and farewells.
Perhaps ATC have realised that the pilots are not the enemy!
there unsafe to do the job,
down to the fact that there idiots in general
They're/their/there
There is no need to go on at the Spanish in such a bitter way. I am no great fan of the ATC here in Madrid, but had a very nice day out today - a couple of directs, not stopped on taxiway to let Iberia through and a lot of hellos and farewells.
Perhaps ATC have realised that the pilots are not the enemy!
I have spent many years using French and Spanish airspace. Unfortunately the vast majority of comments on here are quite accurate. The unprofessional and blatant vectoring of non Spanish/French aircraft, ignoring English speaking a/c in favor of their mother tongue, and basic poor controlling are frequent occurrences.
The training and standardization in these countries is fundamentally flawed. All the above events happen many times an hour and their trainers and standardization personnel cannot fail to see it and still do nothing about it.
The poor quality of control in these countries is all the more apparent when you compare them to the high standards and professionalism displayed by the Dutch, Maastricht, German, Swiss and of course the UK, to name a few.
We had the Shorts 360 fatal at CDG some years ago when language played a key part and it will take another accident for something to be done about these poor standards.
The training and standardization in these countries is fundamentally flawed. All the above events happen many times an hour and their trainers and standardization personnel cannot fail to see it and still do nothing about it.
The poor quality of control in these countries is all the more apparent when you compare them to the high standards and professionalism displayed by the Dutch, Maastricht, German, Swiss and of course the UK, to name a few.
We had the Shorts 360 fatal at CDG some years ago when language played a key part and it will take another accident for something to be done about these poor standards.