UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Age: 53
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what we are experiencing now is only the tip of the iceberg....I'm sure worse is to follow
If you don't, then what do you fancy, pay freeze for the next three years, a cut in wages? New rosters that can fulfil the company's needs but with 20% less staff? Cuts in ASAP unless you work every nightshift in a year? Take your pick, I'm sure the management have many more ideas up their sleeves.
Roll on Tuesday! Can't wait.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Just North of France
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What exact relevance does the pension vote have to your stereotypical view that "everyone at a Band 5 unit used to think they were untouchable".
I work at a band 5 unit and voted no for the pension. Do I think my unit is untouchable, no.
You talk about sticking together, having a go at higher banded units is hardly going to help your cause, whatever band they are!
I genuinely feel sorry for those that work in the NSL units, but without leadership from the top of the union, there is not a lot that people at any unit can do.
I work at a band 5 unit and voted no for the pension. Do I think my unit is untouchable, no.
You talk about sticking together, having a go at higher banded units is hardly going to help your cause, whatever band they are!
I genuinely feel sorry for those that work in the NSL units, but without leadership from the top of the union, there is not a lot that people at any unit can do.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: way down south
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATSAs have had their hours changed already and apparently Branch officers were involved but the changes were management driven and it was a "tell" not a negotiation..so members were not balloted!!! A definite case of "sod you and get on with it"! 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: at home
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"ATCOs and ATSAs used to be together if you remember but ATCOs broke away to get a better deal"
be careful what you say - you'll be accused of having a chip on your shoulder!
Many of the NSL staff should now be looking for their personal lifeboats before the ship goes down - and no matter how long it takes, be certain that there's no help (or fight) coming from the Unions.
be careful what you say - you'll be accused of having a chip on your shoulder!
Many of the NSL staff should now be looking for their personal lifeboats before the ship goes down - and no matter how long it takes, be certain that there's no help (or fight) coming from the Unions.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really think it's about time we all withdrew goodwill and AAVA/ OT. NATS can't operate efficiently without our co- operation. Some may ask what good will this do? Well it will send a message to our glorious managers that we are no longer willing to accept what they throw at us and that we, the staff are the ones which keep the company afloat and the aircraft in the air. I feel its the only weapon we have, as our unions are obviously not capable of putting up a fight.
It is time the worm turned
It is time the worm turned
Last edited by Vote NO; 17th Apr 2009 at 11:37.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: at home
Posts: 401
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kats-I
FWIW, I don't actually remember a time in the last 20 years where the Unions were ever really together (if at all), and that is a big part of the current problem.
all of what's going on now is a result of circumstances coming together. The current economic/financial situation; a Management team that has completely re-invented our Company as a potential money making machine and not much else; frightened - yes, frightened - staff members, unable to think beyond personal circumstances and possible hardships ahead, and finally, ineffective Union support with a weak-willed membership.
We all have our own ideas about what should be done, but apart from the sabre-rattlers on here and the odd one or two in the workplace, there's no stomach for a fight out on the front line. Quite understandably, we are all too conscious of our own personal situations to risk pushing the issue to the limit even for ourselves, let alone for anyone else.
Therefore, each of us needs to be looking at our own positions within this crisis, and work out the best way forward for ourselves. We are not going to resolve this collectively (ie - via the Unions), because we've already been found out to be weak and ineffective as a coherent workforce in the negotiating arena. The forthcoming meeting concerning the future of NSL will be the final chance for the Unions to flex their muscle.
Will they take it? More importantly, if the Union resolve is for all members to stand together to save the smaller fish, will those who consider themselves to be in the safer jobs/areas of the Company stand up to support those who have their backs to the wall?
Personally, I don't think so, but we shall all just have to wait and see.
FWIW, I don't actually remember a time in the last 20 years where the Unions were ever really together (if at all), and that is a big part of the current problem.
all of what's going on now is a result of circumstances coming together. The current economic/financial situation; a Management team that has completely re-invented our Company as a potential money making machine and not much else; frightened - yes, frightened - staff members, unable to think beyond personal circumstances and possible hardships ahead, and finally, ineffective Union support with a weak-willed membership.
We all have our own ideas about what should be done, but apart from the sabre-rattlers on here and the odd one or two in the workplace, there's no stomach for a fight out on the front line. Quite understandably, we are all too conscious of our own personal situations to risk pushing the issue to the limit even for ourselves, let alone for anyone else.
Therefore, each of us needs to be looking at our own positions within this crisis, and work out the best way forward for ourselves. We are not going to resolve this collectively (ie - via the Unions), because we've already been found out to be weak and ineffective as a coherent workforce in the negotiating arena. The forthcoming meeting concerning the future of NSL will be the final chance for the Unions to flex their muscle.
Will they take it? More importantly, if the Union resolve is for all members to stand together to save the smaller fish, will those who consider themselves to be in the safer jobs/areas of the Company stand up to support those who have their backs to the wall?
Personally, I don't think so, but we shall all just have to wait and see.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A work colleague (I would say friend but he's an ATSA and I'm an ATCO - the two really shouldn't mix) told me today that the ATSAs in TC have lost a leave column.
What this means in simple terms is that the ATSAs left in TC after the redundancies cannot take their full allocation of leave each year as there are not enough days available to do so.
This has been done with the full knowledge of the ATSA branch of the Union. The way management can get around the issue is simple, if not a little devious and dishonest.
There are enough days in the leave columns for ATSAs to take their annual leave allocation, but not enough for them to be able to take their bank holiday entitlement or TOIL -this does not constitute a breach of Ts and Cs.
ATSA 4s (the 5 that are left) have the discretion to give ATSAs the day off when it is anticipated to be quiet, say a Saturday afternoon shift.
Not really fair on the ATSAs, or the ATSA 4 who has to make the call. Particularly not fair considering how much of a cull there was for TC ATSAs - we now have 3 on a night shift.
The leave will have to be carried over - but when will they be able to take it?!!
This is just one example of how the Unions are 'working Together'. As Standard Noise says, if we do not stand together now, irrespective of NERL or NSL, irrespective of Banding, irrespective of Operational or Office worker, we will get shafted.
This is probably our last chance to show some balls - we flunked the pension issue - more by the lack of turnout to vote than the actual result - we really can't afford to do it again. Does anyone think PB gives any care beyond his next 12 months at NATS?
He is fat dumb and happy with a nicely secured pension - courtesy of some nice golden hellos and goodbyes along the way (I believe he was compensated when he joined NATS to make up for some pension loss in previous employment).
PB has bull$h1tted his way through the pension debacle, claiming it was as much in his interest as a pension fund member as it was in ours, when in reality he has managed to get big payrises into effect before the RPI pension cap took effect.
If you believe the spin that these guys are giving, you deserve to be shafted. It's not just management we have to convince that we are serious, it's also the Union.
What this means in simple terms is that the ATSAs left in TC after the redundancies cannot take their full allocation of leave each year as there are not enough days available to do so.
This has been done with the full knowledge of the ATSA branch of the Union. The way management can get around the issue is simple, if not a little devious and dishonest.
There are enough days in the leave columns for ATSAs to take their annual leave allocation, but not enough for them to be able to take their bank holiday entitlement or TOIL -this does not constitute a breach of Ts and Cs.
ATSA 4s (the 5 that are left) have the discretion to give ATSAs the day off when it is anticipated to be quiet, say a Saturday afternoon shift.
Not really fair on the ATSAs, or the ATSA 4 who has to make the call. Particularly not fair considering how much of a cull there was for TC ATSAs - we now have 3 on a night shift.
The leave will have to be carried over - but when will they be able to take it?!!
This is just one example of how the Unions are 'working Together'. As Standard Noise says, if we do not stand together now, irrespective of NERL or NSL, irrespective of Banding, irrespective of Operational or Office worker, we will get shafted.
This is probably our last chance to show some balls - we flunked the pension issue - more by the lack of turnout to vote than the actual result - we really can't afford to do it again. Does anyone think PB gives any care beyond his next 12 months at NATS?
He is fat dumb and happy with a nicely secured pension - courtesy of some nice golden hellos and goodbyes along the way (I believe he was compensated when he joined NATS to make up for some pension loss in previous employment).
PB has bull$h1tted his way through the pension debacle, claiming it was as much in his interest as a pension fund member as it was in ours, when in reality he has managed to get big payrises into effect before the RPI pension cap took effect.
If you believe the spin that these guys are giving, you deserve to be shafted. It's not just management we have to convince that we are serious, it's also the Union.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Cloud Nine
Posts: 359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the AAVA agreeement should be binned - NATS have now come to rely on it as 'standard practice'.
It is divisive, it pays over the 'going rate' for those at the bottom of scale, and only pays a normal days pay for those at the top. You will always get individuals who don't see the corrosive long-term effect it has on us all and will continue to trouser the cash but I would hope they will get less and less as the worth of it reduces and the 'goodwill' dries up.
I would further suggest if the Union don't have the balls for an out and out scrapping of the scheme, that they propose pro-rata rates (depending where you are on the payscale) to management. Hey, they could even propose it on the basis it saves management money
Top of scale to get the usual £500/£600 pre-tax payment - what they would get for a normal shift.
Bottom of scale gets 50% of that - also, what they would get for a normal shift.
Let's see how soon the system grinds to a halt.
Out of interest - to those that do AAVAs. Don't you feel you are being got on the cheap ? Do you ever wonder how many £000s your AAVA attendance actually saves NATS (in fines) in the short term?
It is divisive, it pays over the 'going rate' for those at the bottom of scale, and only pays a normal days pay for those at the top. You will always get individuals who don't see the corrosive long-term effect it has on us all and will continue to trouser the cash but I would hope they will get less and less as the worth of it reduces and the 'goodwill' dries up.
I would further suggest if the Union don't have the balls for an out and out scrapping of the scheme, that they propose pro-rata rates (depending where you are on the payscale) to management. Hey, they could even propose it on the basis it saves management money
Top of scale to get the usual £500/£600 pre-tax payment - what they would get for a normal shift.
Bottom of scale gets 50% of that - also, what they would get for a normal shift.
Let's see how soon the system grinds to a halt.
Out of interest - to those that do AAVAs. Don't you feel you are being got on the cheap ? Do you ever wonder how many £000s your AAVA attendance actually saves NATS (in fines) in the short term?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
General Info!
Just for info - the ATCO reps are not paid in any shape or form. They are all full time ATCOs with 'day' jobs controlling who give up their own time to represent the members the best they can. They are elected each year and can easily be removed if that is what the majority of members wish 
Equally, the door is always open if any wishes to become more active in the union. Instead of simplying saying 'the union' is crap, why not lead from the front? (and yes, we all joined the company to control, not be be union reps, but someone has to do it!)
On a slightly different note, the website ATCOs.co.uk - is now up and running. Although in its infancy, it will continue to be added to and kept current. So much so that I believe there is something coming out tonight regarding the Pay Meeting which took place today
Just taking a step back now to make room for the complaints
Equally, the door is always open if any wishes to become more active in the union. Instead of simplying saying 'the union' is crap, why not lead from the front? (and yes, we all joined the company to control, not be be union reps, but someone has to do it!)
On a slightly different note, the website ATCOs.co.uk - is now up and running. Although in its infancy, it will continue to be added to and kept current. So much so that I believe there is something coming out tonight regarding the Pay Meeting which took place today
Just taking a step back now to make room for the complaints
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Rebel HQ
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I pledged not to do another AAVA when the pension saga began ... and I'm keeping my word.
The vast majority of our Watch also have a gentlemans/ladies agreement not to do them either ... and with a couple of individual exceptions, we don't.
The unit is finding it hard to find AAVAs to cover the normal shortfall and those created by management ineptitude. That is a good thing and we need to put even more pressure on our colleagues not to help NATS out. They have shafted us over pensions, they will shaft us over pay. Non op staff have been attacked and cut back. NSL is next, then it will be an assault on everyones T&C's. Yet some people can't see beyond the paltry bag of money which will be thrown at them and get NATS management out of the mire again and again ... at their own and their colleagues long term expense.
The AAVA rate is not even worth what it was when it first came in. In addition to there being no annual increase to match RPI, National Insurance increases also mean you get less in your hand than you did when it first came in.
Stop fannying about Prospect, stop aiding and abetting the management, pull the agreement now and let NATS come up with a solution or a substantially increased price for our goodwill and sacrifice.
The vast majority of our Watch also have a gentlemans/ladies agreement not to do them either ... and with a couple of individual exceptions, we don't.
The unit is finding it hard to find AAVAs to cover the normal shortfall and those created by management ineptitude. That is a good thing and we need to put even more pressure on our colleagues not to help NATS out. They have shafted us over pensions, they will shaft us over pay. Non op staff have been attacked and cut back. NSL is next, then it will be an assault on everyones T&C's. Yet some people can't see beyond the paltry bag of money which will be thrown at them and get NATS management out of the mire again and again ... at their own and their colleagues long term expense.
The AAVA rate is not even worth what it was when it first came in. In addition to there being no annual increase to match RPI, National Insurance increases also mean you get less in your hand than you did when it first came in.
Stop fannying about Prospect, stop aiding and abetting the management, pull the agreement now and let NATS come up with a solution or a substantially increased price for our goodwill and sacrifice.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just had a quick peek at the website ATCOs.co.uk - looks good.
On the pay update it talks about a blended RPI. I think most people will, however reluctantly, agree that this is inevitable - how far the blending goes in favour of management is another argument.
However, this blended RPI had better not be forgotten when we are faced with the reverse situation we are in now i.e. when the times comes that we have a low Aug RPI and pay negotiations begin whilst costs are rising.
Management should be left in no doubt that in that circumstance, we would not be willing to accept the low offer and thatblending would need to take place.
However, knowing how they work any pay deal will be quickly hammered out during low RPI years - much to the benefit of management.
On the pay update it talks about a blended RPI. I think most people will, however reluctantly, agree that this is inevitable - how far the blending goes in favour of management is another argument.
However, this blended RPI had better not be forgotten when we are faced with the reverse situation we are in now i.e. when the times comes that we have a low Aug RPI and pay negotiations begin whilst costs are rising.
Management should be left in no doubt that in that circumstance, we would not be willing to accept the low offer and thatblending would need to take place.
However, knowing how they work any pay deal will be quickly hammered out during low RPI years - much to the benefit of management.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
KATS-I
I have been around loing enough to remember that. I don't blame ATCO's for getting a better deal, the trouble is it has been and will be used to divide ATC staff. So what happens is engineers are offered 4.8% and ATCO's 1.3%? RB (Robbing B$%£"&^D?
is often quoted as stating that ATCO's are great, but paid way too much. I think that is on the rich side coming from him The sooner this particular fatcat is gone the better 
. I wonder how big his golden wheelbarrow(s) will be? I think I will measure how much he 'acquires' in ATSA's, £ are so passe.
We should have a single union, so how the hell do we go about it??
I have been around loing enough to remember that. I don't blame ATCO's for getting a better deal, the trouble is it has been and will be used to divide ATC staff. So what happens is engineers are offered 4.8% and ATCO's 1.3%? RB (Robbing B$%£"&^D?
is often quoted as stating that ATCO's are great, but paid way too much. I think that is on the rich side coming from him The sooner this particular fatcat is gone the better . I wonder how big his golden wheelbarrow(s) will be? I think I will measure how much he 'acquires' in ATSA's, £ are so passe.We should have a single union, so how the hell do we go about it??
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: LONDON England
Age: 52
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As the employees "own " part of NATS, can we ask for an extraordinary general meeting for a vote of no confidence in PB? I know the answer is most probably no, but just a thought. My life boat is being prepared.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Down the front of my briefs
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any shareholder can propose an EGM, but you'll need to show that you have significant support to get one called. I doubt if HMG or the Airline Group will add their support to us little shareholders.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hotel CTC
Age: 54
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PCS are suffering from 'in-fighting' just before their annual pilgrimage to Brighton. The pension issue is ripping them apart (desjavous)! Add to that the culling of engineers and ATSAs.
Meanwhile Prospect seem to have created a divided membership without even trying!
No wonder PB is on a 9% (alleged) pay rise!
A UNITED front is required right now!
SHAFTED I am not (yet)!
Meanwhile Prospect seem to have created a divided membership without even trying!
No wonder PB is on a 9% (alleged) pay rise!
A UNITED front is required right now!
SHAFTED I am not (yet)!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scot,
The current trade-mark is a 'thinner' version of the 1970's logo which was slightly fatter and had a delta-winged 'widget' to the right. This logo was also shared with the newly-created CAA.
Allegedly the Wolff-Olins re-branding company was paid £1.2m for the "new' logo and Chipperfield's circus stripes.
P.S. Are you related to Uncle Tom?
The current trade-mark is a 'thinner' version of the 1970's logo which was slightly fatter and had a delta-winged 'widget' to the right. This logo was also shared with the newly-created CAA.
Allegedly the Wolff-Olins re-branding company was paid £1.2m for the "new' logo and Chipperfield's circus stripes.
P.S. Are you related to Uncle Tom?
Last edited by ZOOKER; 17th Apr 2009 at 21:23.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: way down south
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Minesapint
Sorry don't know the anwer to that one (yet)
But I do know there are several people out there that could sort management if the unions joined forces. ("anotherthing" are you reading this?..I hope so)
Sorry don't know the anwer to that one (yet)
But I do know there are several people out there that could sort management if the unions joined forces. ("anotherthing" are you reading this?..I hope so)