UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have heard that ALL ATCO's with a validation will be forced, kicking and screaming no doubt, to actually be an air traffic controller full time, and earn the pay!
Also, my little bit of Swanwick is short of appropriately valid controllers so no doubt, given the usual standard of manpower planning, we'll be asked first if we'd like to 'volunteer'
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
separating the wheat from the chaff.... so maybe something positive in this company can happen. Its about time someone had the balls to take on the 'im to pants to hold a licence' club...... up next banding.... luton only? validate on a second sector in a given period or have a pay cut to that of a luton tower ATCO.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roffa,
"my little bit of Swanwick is short of appropriately valid controllers".
A shame.
Is that because your training system failed them?
"my little bit of Swanwick is short of appropriately valid controllers".
A shame.
Is that because your training system failed them?
Last edited by ZOOKER; 27th Jan 2009 at 20:25.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally, if the freeloaders who are too **** to validate/remain valid get the big elbow im behind that
Well let's all just hope that you are able to keep up with the traffic well into your 50's and aren't ever in the situation of being regarded as sh*t
Just because someone can't keep up with the traffic after 30 years doesn't mean they are a "freeloader" or have nothing to offer as an ATCO.
Although I see you're "up north" so no doubt it won't be an issue for you personally.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Deepest darkest Inbredland....
Posts: 606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
250 kts.
Sadly I have to agree with you. Some of the ATCOs who are none operational are not there through choice. Some for medical reasons and others who have done their 30 years or so and can't quite keep up at the peak periods. Not their fault at all. They have given there best years to the company and their colleagues, and must be respected and assisted by all, so that can reach their retirement with their dignity, and more importantly their health, intact.
Those who come out with these kneejerk reaction need to think a bit about how they wish to be treated in the later years of their career. Yes there are some who try to do as little work as possible, and we all know these people, but many are good people with much knowledge and still have alot of interest in their fellow younger ATCOs.
Think about yourself in a few years and how you would wish to be treated. It will arrive quicker than you think, the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.
Sadly I have to agree with you. Some of the ATCOs who are none operational are not there through choice. Some for medical reasons and others who have done their 30 years or so and can't quite keep up at the peak periods. Not their fault at all. They have given there best years to the company and their colleagues, and must be respected and assisted by all, so that can reach their retirement with their dignity, and more importantly their health, intact.
Those who come out with these kneejerk reaction need to think a bit about how they wish to be treated in the later years of their career. Yes there are some who try to do as little work as possible, and we all know these people, but many are good people with much knowledge and still have alot of interest in their fellow younger ATCOs.
Think about yourself in a few years and how you would wish to be treated. It will arrive quicker than you think, the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: swanlake
Age: 54
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have to agree with the comments on those that have served many years of graft and experience to the company ,but through no fault of their own either medical or just age progression which slows them down(everyone different) should not be cast out. Many factors as an atco would stop them controlling but this would have no impact on many other careers. Remember one of us could be in that position in the future. As for those that couldn't hack it or moved sideways cos they couldn't stand the heat well before these natural age related problems happen......well time to earn your spurs and roll up your sleeves and back to the coalface. ...so thats how mangement think they can lay off 40 ATCO's and do away with overtime...hmmm
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the smaller units moving sideways doesn't really exist.Any non ops jobs are promoted posts,and you maybe able to help in there for a short time.But it won't last long.There isn't corridors of little rooms people can hide in.
You have no choice but to be at the coalface.Just the situation that maybe causing the problem.Welcome to the lean mean world.
You have no choice but to be at the coalface.Just the situation that maybe causing the problem.Welcome to the lean mean world.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gents.
Lets get some perspective here. I'm not talking about ATCO's that have done their time, are towards the end of their career etc etc.... they should be respected and of course if they cannot remain competent then they should be offered something where they can apply all that experience..... and on the same pay too.
I am talking about the few that should not have had a licence in the first place, struggle to keep it and run to an office at the first chance for a newly fabricated job title that translates into nothing really. The ones that sit in front of the console and cause absolute carnage each and every time....are so scared of what they do they end up causing un-necessary delays, excessive extra track miles and are a nightmare to work with. If the LCE scheme was as great as they harp on about then this wouldnt happen, but thats another can of worms.
There are a few that I can think of here at SWANWICK, one in particular that couldnt re validate at TC and now is somewhere raking in an ATCO top of the scale salary, a right tidy sum for someone in charge of locker allocation...... couldnt even do that right.
I'm not against the older ATCO who has done the time at all, they deserve the upmost respect. Nor anyone who looses their medical.
If I were to loose my licence due to '****ness' and ended up at CTC doing an admin role, I would fully expect to get a pay cut for the job that I am doing. Why should I get paid as an ATCO if I cant do the job?
Lets get some perspective here. I'm not talking about ATCO's that have done their time, are towards the end of their career etc etc.... they should be respected and of course if they cannot remain competent then they should be offered something where they can apply all that experience..... and on the same pay too.
I am talking about the few that should not have had a licence in the first place, struggle to keep it and run to an office at the first chance for a newly fabricated job title that translates into nothing really. The ones that sit in front of the console and cause absolute carnage each and every time....are so scared of what they do they end up causing un-necessary delays, excessive extra track miles and are a nightmare to work with. If the LCE scheme was as great as they harp on about then this wouldnt happen, but thats another can of worms.
There are a few that I can think of here at SWANWICK, one in particular that couldnt re validate at TC and now is somewhere raking in an ATCO top of the scale salary, a right tidy sum for someone in charge of locker allocation...... couldnt even do that right.
I'm not against the older ATCO who has done the time at all, they deserve the upmost respect. Nor anyone who looses their medical.
If I were to loose my licence due to '****ness' and ended up at CTC doing an admin role, I would fully expect to get a pay cut for the job that I am doing. Why should I get paid as an ATCO if I cant do the job?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So maybe Prospect should be looking into improvements to the ATCO flexi retirement scheme. Personally I don't think it's reasonable to 'find' a post for an ATCO that can no longer be an ATCO? Not at £85k+ anyway. A better loss of licence/competency scheme maybe? Just a thought.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Up North
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I don't think it's reasonable to 'find' a post for an ATCO that can no longer be an ATCO
Why not offer them a post of "air traffic expert" instead of some young, dippy bird/bloke with little experience in comparison.
Why not offer them a post of "air traffic expert" instead of some young, dippy bird/bloke with little experience in comparison.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
couldnt agree more.
If I remember correctly, a recently failed trainee was attempting to move to the job title 'air traffic expert'....... gotta make you think!!!
Although funnier things have happened
If I remember correctly, a recently failed trainee was attempting to move to the job title 'air traffic expert'....... gotta make you think!!!
Although funnier things have happened
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kinglouis,
I agree with you. An admin job deserves an admin salary. In other companies (or businesses or whatever category we fall into these days), if you were not able to do your job due to '****ness', as it has been called, you would be likely to lose that job. NATS however seems to give everyone nine lives on an ATCO salary. I'm all for giving people a second chance (I had mine when I was given a recourse at the college) but there are cases out there that are just ridiculous
I agree with you. An admin job deserves an admin salary. In other companies (or businesses or whatever category we fall into these days), if you were not able to do your job due to '****ness', as it has been called, you would be likely to lose that job. NATS however seems to give everyone nine lives on an ATCO salary. I'm all for giving people a second chance (I had mine when I was given a recourse at the college) but there are cases out there that are just ridiculous
So what do you all suggest we pay all the watch managers, ops people and other necessary "evils" who dare to take a salary without talking to pilots?
They are surely admin people by definition. Would you like to be supported by admin people on admin salaries and an admin level of knowledge of aviation? Its hard enough now to get good people to take their headsets off for a VERY small payrise and all the job security risk that comes with an office. People have their own motivations for doing this, but a lot of good people are lost to the business due to lack of incintive to remove the headset and run the company properly. What are we left with? Well, young turks, screwed over by our acceptance of the T&D scale have lots of financial incentive to leap up those spine points in to a management office before they have any real idea about how aviation works and we are all lumbered with the ensuing mess.
How will the college ever get/keep good instructors if they are deemed as a lower grade and paid accordingly?
Some of you could condider what happens when you are no longer able to hold a medical or no longer feel competent to do the job (at our new retirement age of 75). Should you be kicked out witout so much as a thank-you or should the company use some of those decades of knowlege and experience to their benefit? If I am deemed worthless by NATS as soon as I don't wear a headset, then I will want to be compensated for that risk now. Put that in your business case.
Dan Dare - never previously known as a management lakkey
They are surely admin people by definition. Would you like to be supported by admin people on admin salaries and an admin level of knowledge of aviation? Its hard enough now to get good people to take their headsets off for a VERY small payrise and all the job security risk that comes with an office. People have their own motivations for doing this, but a lot of good people are lost to the business due to lack of incintive to remove the headset and run the company properly. What are we left with? Well, young turks, screwed over by our acceptance of the T&D scale have lots of financial incentive to leap up those spine points in to a management office before they have any real idea about how aviation works and we are all lumbered with the ensuing mess.
How will the college ever get/keep good instructors if they are deemed as a lower grade and paid accordingly?
Some of you could condider what happens when you are no longer able to hold a medical or no longer feel competent to do the job (at our new retirement age of 75). Should you be kicked out witout so much as a thank-you or should the company use some of those decades of knowlege and experience to their benefit? If I am deemed worthless by NATS as soon as I don't wear a headset, then I will want to be compensated for that risk now. Put that in your business case.
Dan Dare - never previously known as a management lakkey
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we all agree that highly experienced ATCO's who have lost confidence and / or medical should be valued and treated accordingly. Watch management and ops ATCO's are also necessary. What most people have a problem with is the 'Here's a desk and here's 80k and hopefully someone will think of something for you to do' cases. You must be able to think of a few
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Up North
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How will the college ever get/keep good instructors if they are deemed as a lower grade and paid accordingly?
I find that offensive.
Do you mean deemed a lower grade such as a Band 2 Atco like myself and therefore would not make a good instructor?
It may be true on the NERL side but it is awful from the NSL side that college instructors are the highest paid when some of them, not all, cannot validate at units and hold a licence!
How about get rid of the NSL college and farm everyone through an outside source. We haven't had anyone posted in to our place for years and yet are paying for it which diminishes the profit that we do make (and we do make a profit!). It is again part of our overheads as are all the admin staff/ middle managers, chief scientist, etc etc that contribute little to the running of a regional airport. Also some have had huge pay rises (management, band 5 units) over the last few years in comparison which in turn has increased their pension rights and we have all suffered as a result.
I find that offensive.
Do you mean deemed a lower grade such as a Band 2 Atco like myself and therefore would not make a good instructor?
It may be true on the NERL side but it is awful from the NSL side that college instructors are the highest paid when some of them, not all, cannot validate at units and hold a licence!
How about get rid of the NSL college and farm everyone through an outside source. We haven't had anyone posted in to our place for years and yet are paying for it which diminishes the profit that we do make (and we do make a profit!). It is again part of our overheads as are all the admin staff/ middle managers, chief scientist, etc etc that contribute little to the running of a regional airport. Also some have had huge pay rises (management, band 5 units) over the last few years in comparison which in turn has increased their pension rights and we have all suffered as a result.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: South
Age: 64
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If there are going to be any redundancies then I very much doubt they will be operational ATCOs.
I would imagine Management would be looking to scale back the in-house Engineering Projects side of NATS.
All the talk of getting rid of Old Useless ATCOs is quite funny, maybe Hotel Swanwick can be converted into The Shady Pines Rest Home or maybe we could just have a Very Big Patio
I would imagine Management would be looking to scale back the in-house Engineering Projects side of NATS.
All the talk of getting rid of Old Useless ATCOs is quite funny, maybe Hotel Swanwick can be converted into The Shady Pines Rest Home or maybe we could just have a Very Big Patio
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LetMfly,
I know about the college instructor who failed to validate at a Band 2 unit for being ''not up to standard'' (c*@p),but got to the college through the back door.
Perhaps all Atcos should be assessed to their cost effectiveness to Nats.The 40 least efficient should get the boot.£85K to drive a desk.
I know about the college instructor who failed to validate at a Band 2 unit for being ''not up to standard'' (c*@p),but got to the college through the back door.
Perhaps all Atcos should be assessed to their cost effectiveness to Nats.The 40 least efficient should get the boot.
£85K to drive a desk.
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Age: 53
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are some more than capable ATCOs willing to give up all their validations to go full time at the College and others looking for ROVI posts who would stay part valid at their unit. Why would they do it if the instructor role pay scales were reduced? There are loads of people on here who whinge that they don't get paid enough as, or to be, OJTIs, so why would expect College instructors to be paid less?