ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January

[Yahweh]

"A big hand to all the guys and girls across all three stations for standing up for each other and finally doing something that will hopefully improve our lot"

It's a real pity its not like that all the time
Hopefully this might bring an end to the constant oneupmanship and my station is better than yours argument that I have observed through my time in ATC.

Although I sincerely doubt it

Anyway enough of that rant, now that Impact is on board let's get this party started

[norby]

Is the decision not to do overtime voluntary or is it peer pressure....

Angus
You Are missing the point completely...
Whether or not you do overtime is up to you full stop.
If an official overtime ban is brought in, then you have no choice.
The Labour Court demand that All industrial actions cease as a precursor to any talks.
Therefore you must attend for overtime and if you don't management will run to the labour court and the press and claim non compliance and wildcat action to derail any negotiations.

Either way the only way overtime remains voluntary is if it stays out of the official industrial action scenario.

I, like most other ATCO's enjoy the "rewards" of the odd bit of overtime and would like to continue but I would also like the time off to enjoy that spending power.
Read the complete thread and LISTEN the issues here are way bigger than payment for overtime, withdrawing overtime is purely the way we choose to highlight those issues.
No industrial conflict is ever going to be easy but Angus is right about one thing, we are doing this to protect our selves and our profession from the depredations of bad managers. So, lets look out for each other, a little zeal is good but fanaticism is always bad

[baw676]

Thank you Norby thats what i meant.

[COMICALIAM]

IAA Financial and Corporate

IF anyone is in any doubt about the IAA's obsession with MONEY, COST SAVING ,PENNYPINCHING , and their blatant disregard for safety and their staff.....just take a look at where they have placed their PRESS RELEASE....... not under SAFETY REGULATION and not under
AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND TECHNOLOGY. OH NO NO NO......
FINANCIAL AND CORPORATE
speaks volumes

[norby]

IAA Financial and Corporate

Thats only because they had to take down the Lies and B**ls**t section after the parent company F****A F**L complained about copyright infringement

[savagecabbage]

A comment more directed at ATCOs outside the IAA - especially those who are wondering where all this leaves them if they were considering direct entry positions with the IAA. I think the LAST thing this action was intended to be was some kind of 'money spinner' as the IAA 'Spinmonkeys' keep implying - we want more staff on the boards period !! We would dearly love 20 direct-entries to materialise in the coming months . We the staff want it, the union want it and now even belatedly the myopics in head office seem to want it. So I say to you - GET YOUR CVs IN !! You will be welcomed with open arms by anyone with an ounce of sense

For my part .... I severly doubt the IAA's ability to recruit those kinds of numbers - even if they are humiliated into a proper recruitment campaign .... look at the competition out there , where would you go ??

[COMICALIAM]

Time For Controllers to put up their white flag

IAA Press Release 13/2/08
IAA's Director of HUMAN RESOURCES now gaining the upper hand in this war of attrition with it's Air Traffic Controllers

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=s27Oq5ot0ZI

[baw676]

I fear we have lost the propaganda war !

How about a direct plea to Prime Minister Bush to invade HQ for us and that they can keep any oil discovered in EB's office.

[norby]

I don't think we'll find any oil but maybe there will be huge reserves of natural gas found as a by product of the bull**** that streams through HQ!!

[DFC]

Which is it?

At 9pm one of the tower rated controllers finished their duties and went home. As there were no tower rated staff in the ACC the tower closed.
This is IAA Policy on staffing
The traffic levels in Shannon are irrelevant because IAA policy states that there must be 2 tower staff present at all times. Even if Shannon was quiet at the time you must remember that you only need 2 planes on freq for a mid air or one van on the field for a runway incursion and if that happened the IAA would FK you over so fast for operating outside procedure.

I don't know about Euroland or anywhere else but in Ireland the SMC also has to do ramp control, clearancedelivery and at night the atca functions also, lumping that onto AMC would make things unfeasible very quickly ANYWHERE.

or is it;

After a certain hour in the evening ( i think 7pm-ish) the 2 controllers are self-relieving. That means that IF and only IF its quiet then one heads downstairs for a cup of tea and a break. They are contactable by the other controller at all times . When that break is over the favour is returned to the other-again only IF its quiet enough. There is no-one else to provide braeks full stop.

Are you now saying that just because there was not an ATCO drinking tea downstairs an international airport was closed.

The IAA really have to change their excess staffing levels otherwise I fear that 100 new people will simply be used to gaive a belts, braces and bailer twine system of 3 controllers watching every position.

Regards,

DFC

[Yahweh]

Just out of curiosity DFC,

You have mentioned that in many european airports they operate a system of one controller in the tower. You have also indicated that we should do likewise. Now my question is this, if your one man tower controller were to have let's say a heart attack, god forbid , what would happen with regards to airport movements? Would there be another controller on hot standby? Are there two controllers who relieve each other, one on duty one on lunch? I would just like this clarified.

There are two starting night shifts in Shannon. The first night starts at 9, 2 controllers in the tower, and the second one starts at midnight.

The reason that shannon was closed was quite simple although you do seem to have a problem grasping it

At 9.00pm there was only one tower controller to cover the position until midnight. Now despite going against company policy which requires two mandatory and despite the number of actual aircraft movements between 9 and midnight which is irrelevant, if that one controller were to have a mishap and were unable to do their job, who would take over?

You seem to be quite hung up on this tower issue. Maybe you should suggest to your own management to get two controllers in the tower. Or maybe your happy with the way it works in your neck of the woods and in that case I'm happy for you . But frankly the fact that we have two controllers in our tower and you don't is a very small part of our problem, and unless you come over here and see the situation for yourself than your unhelpful comments ain't worth ****...

[alwaysmovin]

DFC I can't decide if you can't read or are purposely trying to irritate everybody. Your point has been made... shannon tower may not always be busy but you can't leave one controller there without a break on their own to do ground ,air and assistant.......as has been pointed out to you a few times already .....There is no overstaffing in shannon- quite the oppisite. I'm sure if staffing the tower was costing the IAA anymore than they could get away with they would have changed it by now. However the situation in the center is a very real problem with not enough people being available to give adequate fatigue breaks (as required by law) and controllers working illegal amounts of time in position.

Your constant posting on here about overstaffing is pointless unless you have some hidden agenda. It also detracts greatly from the problem at hand.

If you think your points are genuinely valid, write an email to the IAA but stop harping on to the people on here -many of whom have been keeping a very porly organised system afloat for a lot longer than they should have been.

If as stated quite a number of times aready you think shannon is so bloody quiet then obviously closing it down for a hour or 2 should not be such a big problem should it....

[norby]

Jesus DFC
If it only takes 2 tower controllers going sick to close Heathrow (the worlds busiest international airport) for 4 hours then whats the problem with Shannon closing when the staffing falls below minimum there?
Why don't you apply for the direct entry intake into the IAA and then maybe you will begin to understand.......

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions......
ignore any further posts he's just looking to tick us off

[Handover]

Another thing DFC, if it's company policy to have 2 controllers in the tower at all times it is also no doubt a stipulation of their insurance. If a controller was to agree to man the tower on his own when two controllers are the requirement, HE/SHE is liable for any claim consequently made against the company because the insurance would be declared null and void and responsibility would transfer to the accepting party( at least in this jurisdiction it would). Things a little clearer now?

[beamwidth]

DFC - he likes to post a lot

It would appear that DFC is getting up everyones nose at this stage.

If you look at his profile and also some of the posts he's made, you'll find the following

1. he's a private pilot in the uk,

2. he likes to post a lot

3. in the main, his posts offer his ( often uninformed ) opinion of lots of topics, but solutions to few or none of them

4. he likes to post a lot

5. If you ignore him he'll move onto some other thread, and annoy them there.

So, if you dont engage him, he'll p*ss off sooner rather that later

Simple really

[DFC]

If you look at his profile and also some of the posts he's made, you'll find the following

1. he's a private pilot in the uk,

Wrong.

My posts offer my opinion. Your posts offer your opinion. No problem there.

If you want to know why I am interested it is that I am a customer affected by the closure(s). I don't place fault with the ATCO's but with the IAA and I think that they need to get a grip with regard to staffing. If Waterford, Kerry, Galway, Knock, Sligo and Donegal can operate with only 1 combined approach/air/ground/delivery on duty at a time there must be an Irish solution to the problem.

As for my experience of the matters - well I was there when that famous statement - "to recruit controllers just go to Kerry with a steak on the end of a long stick" was uttered. A long time ago but there will be a few of you who remember that statement.

Perhaps if I grow tired of flying, I will sign-up. Seems to suit those more accustomed to falling asleep in the chipmunk during basic training.

Getting back to the issue, there sems to be two opinions on the issue;

You have also indicated that we should do likewise. Now my question is this, if your one man tower controller were to have let's say a heart attack, god forbid , what would happen with regards to airport movements?

Ask Bournemouth. They had a lone ATCO break a leg some time ago going down the steps in the tower to make a cuppa. I am talking of lone ATCO in this sense as being the one doing Tower and Approach. In other words no distant approach radar controller to handle the zone traffic, missed approaches etc etc

I am not trying to make a point, I am trying to find out which of the following is correct;

if it's company policy to have 2 controllers in the tower at all times it is also no doubt a stipulation of their insurance. If a controller was to agree to man the tower on his own when two controllers are the requirement, HE/SHE is liable for any claim consequently made against the company because the insurance would be declared null and void and responsibility would transfer to the accepting party( at least in this jurisdiction it would).

or

After a certain hour in the evening ( i think 7pm-ish) the 2 controllers are self-relieving. That means that IF and only IF its quiet then one heads downstairs for a cup of tea and a break

If the first is correct then the second one says that Shannon operates on a requirement for controllers to breach the comanies rules whcih must be part of the approval.

--------

No-one is going to stand for being the only tower rating on duty trying to deal with an emergency on their own.

So the ATCO's at Waterford, Kerry, Galway, Knock, Sligo and Donegal can handle an emergency (have handled emergencies) while doing both Tower and Approach. At Shannon, where there is in addition Approach Radar provided by another controller, the Tower controller would be unable to cope?

As a customer, I can not see the rationalle behind such differences.

I don't think that the Public would either.

Regards,

DFC

[Yahweh]

"Ask Bournemouth. They had a lone ATCO break a leg some time ago going down the steps in the tower to make a cuppa. I am talking of lone ATCO in this sense as being the one doing Tower and Approach. In other words no distant approach radar controller to handle the zone traffic, missed approaches etc etc"

And I'm sure you will enlighten us with your vast knowledge in ATC matters as to what happened when the afforemetioned controller broke his leg. Surely the airport did'nt remain open for the aircraft to guide themselves in, god forbid that would ever happen


DFC, unless you have actually worked as a controller for the IAA and have experience in these matters then your opinion which you are perfectly entitled to is inaccurate and based on your little understanding of a complex issue. You must think that you came up with the idea by yourself and your gonna solve this problem for us before you move onto your next challenge.

So let me enlighten you, reducing the staffing in Shannon Tower to one controller would have a negligible impact on our staffing problem. The amount of controllers free for other positions would not even stretch into double figures. The IAA would have done it long ago if it saved them a few bob. Our staffing issues go well beyond this. It also seems they go well beyond your powers of comprehension

My suggestion is that you actually come into a centre and take a look at what's going on before you start posting crap. Typical left seat drivers, I have very little time for them.

So stick to trying to save the whales mate.... or just keep sprouting bull****, it seems to be what your best at

[beamwidth]

now where was i........ oh yeah,

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions......
ignore any further posts he's just looking to tick us off

good point norby, well stated

[baw676]

Stop rising to the bait lads!

He obviously can't read as the answer to his questions are all contained within the posts posted so far.

The mere fact he keeps asking the same question over and over and never reads the responses with the answers means he is out to upset.

Irrespective of what the answer may be he still won't be happy until we admit that Shannon tower is overstaffed and should actually be controlled by a monkey tied by a rope to the console.

Why does the cockpit of an aircraft have two blokes doing the one job the answer DFC is safety.
THATS WHY THERE IS TWO ATCO'S MANNING SHANNON TOWER.

[irishatco]

understaffing at cork

rte are reporting a shortage of staff tonight from midnight til 8am. of course they are blaming the ATCOs for this. where do they get their info?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0214/airport.html