ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January

[shyhawk]

ock1f- i'm very interested in a lot of your views regarding the upper echelons of IAA management and there obvious comptempt for the very people who line their pockets. For someone who has only found this forum recently i am amazed that from what i have seen in the media/IAA press releases which portrays the IAA controllers in a very bad light to the general public- obviously this is not the case.

2 questions:

1. Is it not about time that IMPACT made a firm, aggresive response to the bull being tossed about by the IAA management to the general public (who are none the wiser)?

2. What would your advice be to anyone applying to become a controller with the IAA in the near future??]

Stay classy
Shyhawk

[alwaysmovin]

Shyhawk my advise would be to get trained, do your 5 years to pay off your training and then get the hell out of there. Everybody needs staff and most of europe is opening up to direct entries. You'll get treated better and paid better. These opportunies did not exist formally and because the IAA have a policy of not taking controllers back after they leave very few took the risk before and the IAA figured they could just continue to treat their staff like **** because where else could they work if not for the IAA.

Hopefully the IAA may finally realise the mistakes they have made...continually...and take responsibily for the situation that has now arisen. I very much doubt it however and as their press releases have shown they are just a bunch of overpaid idiots who just keep making the situation worse. Absolutely no thought at all was put into those releases but then again no thought at all is put into anything within the IAA unless it involves saving money...or trying to screw employees

[ock1f]

To clarify , While i have no interest in dissing the management of the iAA it may appear thats all i do! I would like to point out that i was only outlining the background to why the controllers company wide ,are so worried about the situation and upset at how their own company views them.
At the end of the day both sides have to work together but in all things give and take it required. It is the firm view of staff that all they have done and are asked to do is give ,give, give. Hopefully this will change. From what i understand of the situation so far the staff are trying to offer management solutions to their problems but they won't even concide there is a problem.
In the absence of any progress ,in the absence of any sign that management are going to engage and in the presence of sustained and slanderous attacks , the controlleers have been left with no choice especially when it comes to their legitamate and proven concerns about the lack of staff and other issues.

Skyhawk to answer your second question : My advice would be to still go ahead and join. You are needed ,badly needed , so by me saying don't join would be counter productive to actually solving the problem of low staff. Obviously there are IR issues at the moment and they may very well get a lot worse before they get better. Obviously morale is at the lowest i can ever remember ..and as we face into the hectic spring and summer months people are really ,really worried and concerned about getting a hammering. The prospect of not getting any leave due to the chronic lack of staff is also making people worried. But like i keep saying management will have to engage and act at some stage and then hopefully things will improve and we can become one big happy family again

To answer your first question : Yes it is most definitely time for Impact and Michael Landers (assistant general secretary in charge of aviation ) in particular to stand up to the plate and be counted. If union representation is to count for anything they must support their members and back them to the full. If not then the entire concept of a union in ireland is dead and gone. I haven't seen any public utterance from Impact defending their members . While i have applauded their restraint thus far i must now say the time has come for Impact to publicly refute the IAA slander. Why else are we paying a hefty union subscription every year. Why are WE paying Michael Landers salary if he then doesn't do his job by listening ,supporting and backing Impact members. If Impact run away because they dont have the balls to stick their head above the parapet then the staff will just continue on by themselves. We are stiil represented by IATCA , we have a valid mandate for industrial action up to and including strike action so that will happen if the need arises.
I have expressed my view that i sincerely hope we dont have a full stoppage strike but if that is what it takes then so be it. Each person has to stand up , take the hits and be assured that they are doing the right thing especially in matters of safety.

Why are Impact being so quiet? Well it doesn't take a genius to to make the link between Mr. Eamonn Brennan (cheif exec of the IAA) and Mr.Seamus Brennan (senior government minister) -yes they are brothers. Now the cheif exec knows that there is a major storm brewing ahead and if that storm arrives its going to make him look really really bad. So over dinner one night he has a little word with his brother, the goverment minister about his problem and this storm thats approaching. Like all Fianna Fail ministers ,Seamus Brennan says "sure leave it with me ,I'll have a word with a few people"
As is well known the top tier of the unions in Ireland and the top tier of government are joined at the hip. So political interference and pressure start to be applied. Serious pressure-the type that has people quaking in their boots and worried about their livelyhoods.
Now of course this scenario never happened and i'm not for one second insinuating or alleging that this took place-but if one was looking for a possible reason why impact have gone so quiet and are apparently on the verge of abandoning thier own members then this might be a possible candidate.

Again i express my wish that this can be sorted out but if there continues to be no progress at all then the storm is coming-Impact or no Impact.

Yours as ever OCK1F

[DFC]

Does shannon require both ground and air open at such times?
Yes-company rules.

I can bet that customers will be putting severe pressure on the IAA to have that changed. Can't argue on safety grounds since many more busy UK and European airports combine the Air / Ground position at times.

Can see a good case for the tower being a 1 ATCO and 1 ATSA position all day everyday.

What would the ATCO union position on that be?

Having 2 controllers for one position (the approach radar position) throughout the shift period but requiring 3+ controllers for what in reality is 1 ATCO position in the tower seems more than a little odd.

As an interested observer, I think that chosing Shannon Tower for this protest may have been a bit of an own goal as it could in fact show that the tower positions are over-staffed especially compared to UK airports with higher traffic levels!!

Regards,

DFC

[ock1f]

DFC-while i respect fully your right to post what you want ,I respectfully say that you really dont have the understanding of the situation. This is possibly down to my inadequate replies.I think you are applying SOPS and staffing arrangements in your neck of the woods to what would apply in shannon. Obviously there are major differences. I genuinely don't have the time to give you the full run down as i'm already late for an appointment-but one small example if i may.

There is no atsa or assistant or any other support H24 in shannon tower .The two contollers effectively do 3 jobs. No-one accepts its ok for one controller to do the 3 jobs. End of story i think.

As regards comparing APP with TWR i think again i wasn't as clear as i could have been. There are always two APP covering the one APP position at any one time obviuosly working in rotation. During a shift i guess that there could be 6 to 8 on.

Got to im really late

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[PPRuNe Radar]

Having 2 controllers for one position (the approach radar position) throughout the shift period but requiring 3+ controllers for what in reality is 1 ATCO position in the tower seems more than a little odd.

As an interested observer, I think that chosing Shannon Tower for this protest may have been a bit of an own goal as it could in fact show that the tower positions are over-staffed especially compared to UK airports with higher traffic levels!!

I think I read above that the Shannon Approach guys were located in Dublin ?? To give relief to the duty controller in the tower, aren't they going to have a hell of a commute ?

Or maybe I misunderstand DFC's point.

[ock1f]

Sound familiar ?

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=312688

Yours as ever

OCK1F

Ok im really gone this time! Im so late its not funny

[alwaysmovin]

Dfc I think you have missed the point...the controllers did not CHOOSE to close shannon tower -there was no second controller for the tower because there was nobody rostered and the management themselves would not allow it to operate without a second controller.... not the controllers problem. The controllers may have chosen not to engage in overtime but they did not purposely close the tower.
Maybe later on the staffing of shannon tower will change but at this moment in time that is the rule set by the IAA and not the controller.

Its kind of like saying you only need one pilot in the cockpit because the airspace is quiet......What happens if he needs a break to go to the toilet or gets sick???

[goodworker]

I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that the tower position in shannon closed because their was only one tower ATCO on duty.

It may have been possible for that one controller to deal with the traffic, but we cannot let a live traffic situation continue in the full knowledge that if anything happens to that ATCO (incident, illness etc) there is nobody there to even wind down the operation.

[badback]

Shannon to shut 9pm to midnight tonight:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mheyidkfqlsn/

[baw676]

and here

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0209/air.html

[grr nav]

The only reason that there have been closures in Dublin and Shannon is because the IAA do not staff for contingency.

For example, at the start of a 1400 duty if 5 positions require relieve only 5 ATCOs are rostered to come in. This is the same for all duties in Dublin and is probably the same in Shannon. If 1 ATCO goes sick, has an incident or is just late you either close the position and put in flow or it is covered by overtime.

Currently I am not comming in on overtime as

1, I have a life outside
2, I'm sick to my back teeth of the place
3, as managment don't listen to me I feel i've asserted some very small bit of control (no pun) back into my working enviroment.
4, maybe managment will wake up and realise that the IAA exsits outside of Hawkins Street.

The IAA have stated on numerous occasions that there is not a staffing problem and have not very subltly implied that controllers have conspired to cause these closures. and I supose the IAA are right.

how dare you ATCOs out there get sick and not be able to come in and spread your germs and as for you Female ATCOs, did you not read your contract with the IAA where it states that you shall not be allowed to get pregnant, shame on you all.

How on earth do you expect the IAA figures to add up if you keep malfunctioning.

As for others who expect to be able to take your A/Ls within 3 weeks of the day you need off, for minor things like your own wedding (happened) where is your commitment to our world leading organisation. If you cant take you leave the IAA will take if for you, sorry off you.

You more senior ATCOs, you know, the ones near retirement. Yes you have put in 35 years + of hard work and graft, but thats not enough. The IAA requires that you continue to operate as a healthy 25 year old and if you don't well your obviously not healthy enough to be assigned to Expert duties (which you have been doing for 20 years or so), so the IAA will dock you 2 increments moving you down the payscale. Oh but you will still be required to control aircraft.

The IAA request that you join a union that loves to talk. yes talk talk talk, its good to talk. It is important that profit making companies like the IAA and profit making companies like IMPACT engage in discussion. These are proffessional organisations who know whats best for us.

ATCOs KNOW YOUR LIMITS, what type of a crazy topsy turvy world would it be if a union listened to the wishes of its membership and a semi state listened to their primary stakeholders (thats us staff in case somebody from Corporate IAA is reading this).

oh by the way I WAS BEING SARCASTIC

[290kts]

bring it on

What IAA management and their public relations lackey need to realise is that if this situation gets ugly and it very well may after the downright lies published by that jumped up ex controller collaberator of theirs, they will come out the worse for this dispute becoming more public. I am sure the press and public would be shocked to know the ammount of overtime being worked by a small minority of staff especially in dublin. The toothless safety regulator who is so much in bed with senior management that it is starting to look incestuous, the regulator hiding in his office knows where the rosters are kept but continues to turn a blind eye to the vast abuses of maximum permissable working hours and safe rest periods between duties. Rest assured there will not be a person in the country who will not be aware of these abuses if management continue to think that there are 100 operational staff in dublin (I would love to know where the extra 35 staff were conjured from) among many other IAA mismanagement delusions. As a final point has anyone in management ever asked for a days leave 9 months in advance for a childs birthday and when the roster is finally published to find the leave is not available-no staff shortage me a**e.

[badback]

Rest assured there will not be a person in the country who will not be aware of these abuses if management continue to think that there are 100 operational staff in dublin

Its easy when you include staff who are statioed in HQ and others who do not hold valid medicals...

The IAA request that you join a union that loves to talk. yes talk talk talk, its good to talk. It is important that profit making companies like the IAA and profit making companies like IMPACT engage in discussion. These are proffessional organisations who know whats best for us.

Time for IMPACT to change their name to DAMPSQUIB.

[thelowestlevel]

Having been doing a lot of reading in this and other topics over the last few days, i thought i would add my two cents worth.

Quote from IAA web site:

News & Press Releases
Date: February 09 2008

Headline: Disruption to air traffic control services at Shannon Airport


9 February 2008: The Irish Aviation Authority regrets that due to continued unofficial disruptive action by air traffic controllers there will no air traffic control service at Shannon Airport tonight between 2100 hours and 2400 hours.

We regret the service interruption and inconvenience caused to our airline customers and passengers as a result of this unofficial action. Passengers should contact their airline for further information.

ENDS

As an operational controller, who like my collegues is currently working in an atmosphere that is not exactly wonderful at the moment, i find statements like this from our managemt not exactly pleasent, but little more than we have come to expect. The situation in shannon tonight is again down to staffing numbers, 1 controller in the tower from 2100 to 0000, when two are required, and the fact that there is no one available to work overtime is not unofficial aciton, as described in the press release, as we do NOT HAVE MANDATORY OVERTIME.

I would agree with grr nav

1, I have a life outside
2, I'm sick to my back teeth of the place

We work hard enough during our week, that management expecting controllers to work on their days off to shore up a poor roster and bad planning cannot be expected to continue.

Surely the flying public would be happier knowing that there are refreshed controllers on duty rather than dog-tired dissillusioned ones.

[grr nav]

http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=446

Date: February 09 2008

Headline: Disruption to air traffic control services at Shannon Airport


9 February 2008: The Irish Aviation Authority regrets that due to continued unofficial disruptive action by air traffic controllers there will no air traffic control service at Shannon Airport tonight between 2100 hours and 2400 hours.
We regret the service interruption and inconvenience caused to our airline customers and passengers as a result of this unofficial action. Passengers should contact their airline for further information.
ENDS

For further information contact:
Lilian Cassin
Corporate Communications Manager
Irish Aviation Authority
Tel: [phone]

iaa decode

"continued unofficial disruptive action" = we as managment dont have enought controllers to staff the positions if there is an unforseen absense.

[badback]

The situation in shannon tonight is again down to staffing numbers, 1 controller in the tower from 2100 to 0000, when two are required, and the fact that there is no one available to work overtime is not unofficial aciton, as described in the press release, as we do NOT HAVE MANDATORY OVERTIME.

Is this a regular occurence in Shannon, and how long have staff been giving them a dig out by covering on OT?

Serves them right for cutting to the bone and expecting fatigued controllers to take up the slack. How dare we want adequate rest periods?

[baw676]

only 60% of staff in Dublin do overtime, so does that mean the other 40% of staff have been conducting "industrial action" for the last god knows how long?

[DFC]

PPRuNe Radar,

Yes, you did misunderstand my point.

I was not suggesting that the APR guys provide breraks in a tower hours away.

I was making the point that

a) In European ATC terms, it is very hard to justify always having Air and Ground open at an airport as quiet as Shannon. One may find it hard to justify ever having the positions split based on the usual traffic figures.

b) The ATCO's and the IAA seem quite happy with two ATCO's for one position i.e. one on / one off breaks as seems to be the case for the aproach radar position.

c) The IAA (and also the ATCO's since they have not proposed a reduction) require 3 ATCO's at all times to man a quiet control tower - Air, Ground and one on a break.

Seems to me that 1 ATCO on a combined Air/Ground and 1 to give breaks and cover contingency plus an ATSA for busy periods would be suficient.

Can you see somewhere like Carlisle needing such an ATCO staffing level?

------------

goodworker

Dfc, would it be common practice to have only one tower ATCO available in your neck of the woods?

I think that you will find it common practice in many places.

You do not have to go as far as the UK......you only have to look at..........Kerry, Galway, Waterford, Sligo, Knock and Donegal..........Oh and of course, it is also common practice at Shannon to not have a spare ATCO to replace either the Air or Ground controller should they fall off their chair and go U/S.

Shannon can get by prefectly safely with 2 Tower ATCOs - one working and one on a break............perfectly safe since there is very little traffic.

If there was only 1 ATCO on shift then quite simply, the tower should have been operated as combined Air/Ground (with flow if necessary - can't see a reason at Shannon) for 2 hours, closed for 30 minutes while the ATCO had a break and re-opened for another 2 hours.

Heck - give the guy a 1 hour break.........still only means a 1 hour closure in 5 hours!!!!!

Why they need a 3 hour break from such hectic traffic is beyond me.

Customers affected by the lack of availability should be making these points to the IAA.

Regards,

DFC

[tin-pusher]

The IAA can solve this problem in a matter of weeks and it lies in the 20+ résumés they have from current contollers seeking Direct Entry. In early autumn, the IAA knew this crisis was coming, and encouraged Weston, military and regional controllers to submit their CV's....and that was it!

Nobody has heard anything since!

The solution is obvious, and it's lying on HR's desk