ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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DFC
"Perhaps if I grow tired of flying, I will sign-up. Seems to suit those more accustomed to falling asleep in the chipmunk during basic training."
What the F**K is that about!!!!!!!!!
Are you seriously comparing Irish controllers to lazy Student pilots????
For your information Dublin deals with 95% of the traffic levels of Gatwick with 27 tower ratings not the 40+ tower ratings in Gatwick. Shannon control all the Upper level airspace between 45north and 61 north with less staff than UKNATS by miles.
Stick to what you know best. Small airplanes and small airports.
When you get a real flying job you might have something constructive to offer us, until then the last thing we need is a whingy tit pilot telling us HE knows best, we get enough of that ****e from management.
What the F**K is that about!!!!!!!!!
Are you seriously comparing Irish controllers to lazy Student pilots????
For your information Dublin deals with 95% of the traffic levels of Gatwick with 27 tower ratings not the 40+ tower ratings in Gatwick. Shannon control all the Upper level airspace between 45north and 61 north with less staff than UKNATS by miles.
Stick to what you know best. Small airplanes and small airports.
When you get a real flying job you might have something constructive to offer us, until then the last thing we need is a whingy tit pilot telling us HE knows best, we get enough of that ****e from management.
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I'm sure I know what I thought they wrote
Thursday February 14 2008
Early-morning air passengers face disruption tomorrow as Irish air traffic controllers stage an overtime ban.
No flights will be permitted to land or take off from Cork Airport - the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) confirmed today that no aircraft could use the airport between midnight tonight and 8am.
``We expect the early morning services to be disrupted,'' added the spokeswoman.
Irish air traffic controllers issued a two-week strike notice to management on Tuesday, after 99% of controllers voted in favour of industrial action.
The members of the IMPACT trade union claim there has been a recruitment ban for the last six years.
Above extract from irish newspaper - read the use of the words.....
The members of IMPACT 'claim' there has been a recruitment ban for the last six years. Eh there has!!
Early-morning air passengers face disruption tomorrow as Irish air traffic controllers stage an overtime ban.
It's the way they tell'em.........
I'm feelin romantic I might go back to the pit...
Contract, bonus, meet the Fockers, N duties............possibilities there right enough...........
Ah maybe not cos I'd be done for somethin nasty..
If any of you IAA managment types tune in here - get the finger out!!
Early-morning air passengers face disruption tomorrow as Irish air traffic controllers stage an overtime ban.
No flights will be permitted to land or take off from Cork Airport - the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) confirmed today that no aircraft could use the airport between midnight tonight and 8am.
``We expect the early morning services to be disrupted,'' added the spokeswoman.
Irish air traffic controllers issued a two-week strike notice to management on Tuesday, after 99% of controllers voted in favour of industrial action.
The members of the IMPACT trade union claim there has been a recruitment ban for the last six years.
Above extract from irish newspaper - read the use of the words.....
The members of IMPACT 'claim' there has been a recruitment ban for the last six years. Eh there has!!
Early-morning air passengers face disruption tomorrow as Irish air traffic controllers stage an overtime ban.
It's the way they tell'em.........
I'm feelin romantic I might go back to the pit...
Contract, bonus, meet the Fockers, N duties............possibilities there right enough...........
Ah maybe not cos I'd be done for somethin nasty..
If any of you IAA managment types tune in here - get the finger out!!
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DFC and others
When the company offered 15 controllers Voluntary Early Retirement a few years ago it was because the Director of Operations believed we would be overstaffed in Shannon by 73 controllers. They also suspended training of a group of controllers who only recently graduated. They also farmed out some controllers to DFC. They also Failed to renew Tower ratings shortening the amount available. They also moved Shannon Approach to Dublin, taking more controllers with Tower ratings out of Shannon, who couldn't support the staff shortage in Dublin.
* All but 1 of the VER's would be gone by now anyway.
* 3/4 of the suspended trainees are operational.
* The DFC group are back
* They have renewed a few Tower ratings, I think and trained some existing controllers in this area so they can be pulled away from other busy positions if needed.
* The Approach controllers in Dublin, working Shannon App. have not or will not in the near future be trained into any positions in Dublin.
Regardless of haw many controllers turn up for duty at any given time in Shannon they must between them:
* Staff the Tower with 2 controllers(no assistant) H24
* Staff Low Level Area with up to 3 controllers (VFR may be separated)
* Staff High Level Area (1/4 million square miles) with anything from 2 to 9 sectors, handling not only inbounds and outbounds but 95% of the daily traffic that transits the Atlantic Eastboundand Westbound.
Work backwards from the 144ish available(99 in Ops) and tell me where the 73 extra came from.
When the company offered 15 controllers Voluntary Early Retirement a few years ago it was because the Director of Operations believed we would be overstaffed in Shannon by 73 controllers. They also suspended training of a group of controllers who only recently graduated. They also farmed out some controllers to DFC. They also Failed to renew Tower ratings shortening the amount available. They also moved Shannon Approach to Dublin, taking more controllers with Tower ratings out of Shannon, who couldn't support the staff shortage in Dublin.
* All but 1 of the VER's would be gone by now anyway.
* 3/4 of the suspended trainees are operational.
* The DFC group are back
* They have renewed a few Tower ratings, I think and trained some existing controllers in this area so they can be pulled away from other busy positions if needed.
* The Approach controllers in Dublin, working Shannon App. have not or will not in the near future be trained into any positions in Dublin.
Regardless of haw many controllers turn up for duty at any given time in Shannon they must between them:
* Staff the Tower with 2 controllers(no assistant) H24
* Staff Low Level Area with up to 3 controllers (VFR may be separated)
* Staff High Level Area (1/4 million square miles) with anything from 2 to 9 sectors, handling not only inbounds and outbounds but 95% of the daily traffic that transits the Atlantic Eastboundand Westbound.
Work backwards from the 144ish available(99 in Ops) and tell me where the 73 extra came from.
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The Approach controllers in Dublin, working Shannon App. have not or will not in the near future be trained into any positions in Dublin
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Why does the cockpit of an aircraft have two blokes doing the one job the answer DFC is safety
The two crew on larger aircraft have specific roles. Yes each can act as a back-up to the other but they can not complete the flight normally alone. A simple example being the fact that the tiller is on the left of the P1 seat............not reachable from the P2 seat.
I am sure you have heard of the Banderante pilot operating single pilot when the control column snapped off in his hand............no problem.......jumped across into the vacant right seat and on landing was patting himself on the back on saving the day when he found out that there were no brakes on that side!
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In the absence of an answer I am taking it that there is a requirement for 2 ATCO's H24 in Shannon Tower and that when one leaves to have a break (no one to provide the break) they are operating illegally. Which according to an above post happens every day after 7pm.
I must ring the IALPA rep to see what other tit pilots think regarding support to the proposed action.
Regards,
DFC
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Oh how i laugh 
Lads just ignore DFC -obviously just stirring things for the sake of it. It is very very obvious that our replies EXPLAINING the situation are falling on deaf ears . Not only that but as i said before he/she obviously has pre-conceived ideas ,probably on everything from IAA controllers to Darfur and where shergar/elvis and lord lucan are. Its obvious by now that NOTHING we say will be listened to and absorbed , so apart from this post i for one will be ignoring DFC completely. I suggest that rest of the right minded reasonable people here do the same. Don't even bother replying. We have entertained this particular poster long enough.
MESSAGE ENDS
yours as ever
OCK1F
Lads just ignore DFC -obviously just stirring things for the sake of it. It is very very obvious that our replies EXPLAINING the situation are falling on deaf ears . Not only that but as i said before he/she obviously has pre-conceived ideas ,probably on everything from IAA controllers to Darfur and where shergar/elvis and lord lucan are. Its obvious by now that NOTHING we say will be listened to and absorbed , so apart from this post i for one will be ignoring DFC completely. I suggest that rest of the right minded reasonable people here do the same. Don't even bother replying. We have entertained this particular poster long enough.
MESSAGE ENDS
yours as ever
OCK1F
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DFC Post 1806 and OckiF response at 1806
Nothing like having a prepared answer no matter what is said.
No point in reading a post before commenting.
You must be either a politician or management.
Regards,
DFC
Nothing like having a prepared answer no matter what is said.
No point in reading a post before commenting.
You must be either a politician or management.
Regards,
DFC
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Now back to the issue at hand before it was hijacked by someone or other.
So the staff shortages have finally been exposed in cork too. It has been known for years that the place just cannot operate without call-ins .
I don't know whether the IAA comms manager has wrestled back control of the FAX machine from the HOTHEADS in management or whether there is a huge change of thinking from her office but its good to see that with each press release the message is getting less and less vitriolic and slanderous.
This i welcome for two reasons 1) i dont like having my professionalism called into question with the allegation that i walked off the job 'cos i felt like it 2) It doesnt continue to inflame the situation which serves no purpose what so ever.
For an eight hour closure of the tower i was expecting a napalm coated press release but it didnt appear. Maybe they are realising that they dont have a leg to stand on after all ,and they dont want to keep pissing us off all the time.
Maybe they realise that the situation could get really really REALLY BAD for them before the LRC meeting because there is ACTUALLY a seroius staff shortage after all.There is the standard spin on it from their point of view but nothing you wouldnt expect at this stage. Its a bog standard press release and thats the way it should be.
I was having a chat with a friend of mine who works in HR for a rather large company. I explained the situation to him and his response was "just keep doing what we are doing" because it was obvious to him that there are seroius staff issues. By continueing to work our full contracted hours we are complying fully with our contract of employment. By choosing not to work on our days off THAT ALONE exposes the truth. Throw in a work to rule and its even more obvious and plain to see.
The IAA will hopefully have their eyes opened between now and the 19th and realise that they need to get staff back on side -whtaever that takes-becuase we know full well that training controllers (even direct) takes a long time. Chances are that some even bigger scenerios will occur because of the shortage.
Hopefully this will change managements view that US working overtime on our days off is THEIR right and part of our normal T+C's. Hopefully they will come around to the view that we need to be treated with respect -not slander and the expectation that we are willing to work ourselves into an early grave.
I think our message is getting home loud and clear. Remember this is not a stituation of our making - we are just standing up for ourselves and by extension our customers and the travelling public. Stick with it .
The changes for the better are coming.
yours as ever
OCK1F
So the staff shortages have finally been exposed in cork too. It has been known for years that the place just cannot operate without call-ins .
I don't know whether the IAA comms manager has wrestled back control of the FAX machine from the HOTHEADS in management or whether there is a huge change of thinking from her office but its good to see that with each press release the message is getting less and less vitriolic and slanderous.
This i welcome for two reasons 1) i dont like having my professionalism called into question with the allegation that i walked off the job 'cos i felt like it 2) It doesnt continue to inflame the situation which serves no purpose what so ever.
For an eight hour closure of the tower i was expecting a napalm coated press release but it didnt appear. Maybe they are realising that they dont have a leg to stand on after all ,and they dont want to keep pissing us off all the time.
Maybe they realise that the situation could get really really REALLY BAD for them before the LRC meeting because there is ACTUALLY a seroius staff shortage after all.There is the standard spin on it from their point of view but nothing you wouldnt expect at this stage. Its a bog standard press release and thats the way it should be.
I was having a chat with a friend of mine who works in HR for a rather large company. I explained the situation to him and his response was "just keep doing what we are doing" because it was obvious to him that there are seroius staff issues. By continueing to work our full contracted hours we are complying fully with our contract of employment. By choosing not to work on our days off THAT ALONE exposes the truth. Throw in a work to rule and its even more obvious and plain to see.
The IAA will hopefully have their eyes opened between now and the 19th and realise that they need to get staff back on side -whtaever that takes-becuase we know full well that training controllers (even direct) takes a long time. Chances are that some even bigger scenerios will occur because of the shortage.
Hopefully this will change managements view that US working overtime on our days off is THEIR right and part of our normal T+C's. Hopefully they will come around to the view that we need to be treated with respect -not slander and the expectation that we are willing to work ourselves into an early grave.
I think our message is getting home loud and clear. Remember this is not a stituation of our making - we are just standing up for ourselves and by extension our customers and the travelling public. Stick with it .
The changes for the better are coming.
yours as ever
OCK1F
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Quote:
The Approach controllers in Dublin, working Shannon App. have not or will not in the near future be trained into any positions in Dublin
Yet another prime example of IAA under using staff.
While I understand the reasoning behind having two controllers in the tower, i.e. safety, I have to agree with DFC on this point. From my understanding there is a surplus of shannon approach controllers in Dublin yet none are being trained in dub ratings? The management of the IAA must really not know what the hell they are doing.
Full support to you guys in your actions
The Approach controllers in Dublin, working Shannon App. have not or will not in the near future be trained into any positions in Dublin
Yet another prime example of IAA under using staff.
While I understand the reasoning behind having two controllers in the tower, i.e. safety, I have to agree with DFC on this point. From my understanding there is a surplus of shannon approach controllers in Dublin yet none are being trained in dub ratings? The management of the IAA must really not know what the hell they are doing.
Full support to you guys in your actions
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From my understanding there is a surplus of shannon approach controllers in Dublin yet none are being trained in dub ratings? The management of the IAA must really not know what the hell they are doing
Yep not only are they not Dublin rated the majority of them were multi rated Shannon controllers meaning their loss is felt even more when looking for bodies to cover sectors...the "wise" decision to send SNN approach to dublin was the IAA's and now they reap the whrillwind of ill thought out policy and snap decisions
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News & Press Releases
Date: February 14 2008
Headline: FURTHER DISRUPTIVE ACTION BY AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS
14 February 2008: The Irish Aviation Authority regrets to advise of further unofficial disruptive action by Air Traffic Controllers at both Shannon air traffic control centre and Cork Airport. The action at Shannon air traffic control centre takes place between 18:00 and 22:00 hours this evening and, at Cork Airport, between midnight tonight and 08:00 hours on Friday, 15 February.
This will cause major disruption to airlines and the travelling public as the Authority, for safety reasons, has to restrict services. As a result, there will be a reduced flight movement rate in Shannon airspace between 18:00 and 22:00 hours. Significant delays are expected during these times to flights operating into and out of Shannon, Dublin and Cork airports as well as regional airports. Services should return to normal by 22:00 hours tonight.
In Cork, it is anticipated that 11 early morning flights (15 February) will be affected. The Authority expects normal services to resume at 08:00 hours tomorrow. Intending passengers are advised to contact their airline for further information.
This unofficial action is taking place notwithstanding a notification from IMPACT Trade Union on Tuesday of this week that their members were prepared to take official industrial action, including a ban on overtime effective not before 26 February 2008. The present unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff and for safety reasons the Authority has to restrict traffic and reduce or close services. Air Traffic Controllers are demanding significantly enhanced extra attendance payments and changes to roster attendances both of which are included in a package of issues under discussion as part of a process at the Labour Relations Commission.
Further talks are scheduled to take place on 19 February between the Authority and IMPACT, the controllers’ union, in an attempt to find a resolution to this dispute.
ENDS
http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=449
"The present unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff"
There you have it, you ATCOs have been directly accused of DEFRAUDING the IAA.
You have just been criminalised.
I shall now go by the underworld name of 'Fingers Mc Grr nav'.
For Info: sick leave in Dublin for January and February was considerably down on the previous months.
Date: February 14 2008
Headline: FURTHER DISRUPTIVE ACTION BY AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS
14 February 2008: The Irish Aviation Authority regrets to advise of further unofficial disruptive action by Air Traffic Controllers at both Shannon air traffic control centre and Cork Airport. The action at Shannon air traffic control centre takes place between 18:00 and 22:00 hours this evening and, at Cork Airport, between midnight tonight and 08:00 hours on Friday, 15 February.
This will cause major disruption to airlines and the travelling public as the Authority, for safety reasons, has to restrict services. As a result, there will be a reduced flight movement rate in Shannon airspace between 18:00 and 22:00 hours. Significant delays are expected during these times to flights operating into and out of Shannon, Dublin and Cork airports as well as regional airports. Services should return to normal by 22:00 hours tonight.
In Cork, it is anticipated that 11 early morning flights (15 February) will be affected. The Authority expects normal services to resume at 08:00 hours tomorrow. Intending passengers are advised to contact their airline for further information.
This unofficial action is taking place notwithstanding a notification from IMPACT Trade Union on Tuesday of this week that their members were prepared to take official industrial action, including a ban on overtime effective not before 26 February 2008. The present unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff and for safety reasons the Authority has to restrict traffic and reduce or close services. Air Traffic Controllers are demanding significantly enhanced extra attendance payments and changes to roster attendances both of which are included in a package of issues under discussion as part of a process at the Labour Relations Commission.
Further talks are scheduled to take place on 19 February between the Authority and IMPACT, the controllers’ union, in an attempt to find a resolution to this dispute.
ENDS
http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=449
"The present unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff"
There you have it, you ATCOs have been directly accused of DEFRAUDING the IAA.
You have just been criminalised.
I shall now go by the underworld name of 'Fingers Mc Grr nav'.
For Info: sick leave in Dublin for January and February was considerably down on the previous months.
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The present unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff
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A Little Understanding Required...
Maybe I'm wrong, but I venture to say that most controllers have been in the cockpit of a plane (tit or otherwise) at some stage. I also doubt very much if most pilots have been in a control centre?
Understanding what each other's position entails might lead to a little more understanding here on this site?
Just a thought.....!
Understanding what each other's position entails might lead to a little more understanding here on this site?
Just a thought.....!
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I venture to say that most controllers have been in the cockpit of a plane (tit or otherwise) at some stage. I also doubt very much if most pilots have been in a control centre?
Understanding what each other's position entails might lead to a little more understanding here on this site?
Understanding what each other's position entails might lead to a little more understanding here on this site?
Understanding what each other's position entails might lead to a little more understanding here on this site?
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Shannon control all the Upper level airspace between 45north and 61 north
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Perhaps if I grow tired of flying, I will sign-up. Seems to suit those more accustomed to falling asleep in the chipmunk during basic training.
I too am wondering what the hell that's all about. I'm a US FAA ATCer who started in ATC nearly 30 years ago, before that I flew in the USAF, and I've got an advanced degree in law as well. I've spent my life in aviation. I've been to SNN, I've seen the operation and met the controllers, and I'm left trying to decide which of the following is in play here. Is it that:
1. My assumption that "falling asleep in the chipmunk" means taking a nap in a training aircraft is incorrect, and that that phrase is some sort of Irish euphemism I don't understand;
2. You have no concept of the high level of professionalism, skill, and commitment among ATCOs in Ireland in general, and at SNN in particular, and you're doing a poor job improvising; or,
3. You're an ass?
At first I considered your questions reasonable. However, when you brought out the large, indiscriminate brush, you proved that I had been naive in giving you the benefit of the doubt. I honestly did not realize that you were hanging your hat on the assumption that ATCOs were lazy until the big "chipmunk" clue. You sir, have nothing to add to this discussion.
Note that I have no investment of any kind in the outcome of the labor/management conflict in Irish air traffic control. I'm just making a factual observation. Feel free to direct your indignation at me. If you happen to fly internationally and visit my neck of the woods, we could even plan for you to do so in person. I'm anxious to learn why you believe our kind to be lazy.
Dave
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Thanks again Impact for support.anyone who is bored might chech this out:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0712/aviation.html
This is what the IAA were saying even before the Voluntary Retirements.
23 a year.
Laughable
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Having read that extract in Macker's link, can someone with inside knowledge let us know how common it is for someone to maintain ORK and DUB ratings for any extended period? SNN tower/centre is feasible, this other scenario sounds rough.
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sending controllers from Dublin to Cork to prop up up the roster in Cork. and yet the Iaa have the cheek to say there are no staffing shortages.
Enough is enough , Iaa management being seen finally in their true light as absolutely clueless . The more this goes on the more the Iaa s mismanagement over the last number of years will be seen .
Enough is enough , Iaa management being seen finally in their true light as absolutely clueless . The more this goes on the more the Iaa s mismanagement over the last number of years will be seen .