ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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The Authority is satisfied, that through custom and practice, overtime arrangements applying to Air Traffic Controllers form part of their conditions of service. Of course it would be better if overtime was not necessary. However, in any operation requiring cover over 24 hours, extra attendance will feature as a means of addressing short notice absences such as sickness. Many Air Traffic Service Providers, including the National Air Traffic Services in the UK, have in place schemes of additional attendance to augment operational service delivery.
The Authority acknowledges that as part of an agreed flexible arrangement voluntary overtime is used to cover absences primarily caused by sick leave. The Authority rejects the IMPACT statement that the air traffic control system has become over dependent on rest day attendance. To put this in context total overtime attendance by Air Traffic Controllers in 2007 represented less than 2% of contracted hours and the average overtime attendance was less than one hour per Controller per week.
If it's not an issue why are they slandering us in their press statements?
Finally:
There is not a shortage of Air Traffic Controllers in the Irish Aviation Authority.
They have little difficulty in sending staff to Paris on projects though, wouldn't do to show ourselves up in front of Eurocontrol...
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Does Ireland have a legal restriction on controllers hours and working practices ?? The UK has a relatively robust scheme and offers the ATCO the level of protection needed in terms of duty times, rostered hours, fatigue breaks, etc. It's called SRATCOH and can be found here in Appendix D if you want a look :
We have a few " roster principles " written on the back of a cigarette box which dictate max. no of nights per annum (87), core night duty period (0000-0600, open to correction) during which time no duty will start/end, and a few other bits and pieces including max number of hours per week (34.75 net of meals) /also per individual duty ( max 9.5hrs ??)
The Government working time act ( min 11 hours between 2 consequetive duties)doesnt really come into play but attempts are made to flout this frequently, rostering night duty 8 hours after end of early duty (D/N2)
also bear in mind that fatigue breaks are running concurrently with meal breaks, and the time to handover a position is not factored into meal breaks.
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Back from my meal break so here goes:
PPrune radar's post expressed the point excellently on what 'voluntary' means and i have to say it was very very interesting reading to see how NATS treat their staff. Much food for thought there. It is also interesting to note , that if memory serves me correctly, our esteemed chief exec spent quite a while on "secondment" to NATS so Im sure he got a full run down on staffing,and T+C's of controllers.
Quote
"It is common practice among all Air Traffic Service Providers to apply traffic restrictions where demand exceeds the capacity of the system. Air Traffic Controllers are very well protected from overload through a defined workload threshold.
I take that with a very large grain of salt.
As the lowestlevel said "This in simple terms is Flow Control/Management.
These particular words are "dirty words" as far as Shannon Management are concerned. Whie restrictions do get put in place for holiday flights on the T Routes, flow restrictions are never implemented in Shannon for regular day to day NAT traffic, or are a lower number of NAT tracks requested due to staffing shortages" but if i can give a bit of background here if i may.
Controllers have been calling for a sector capacity study for years. For years it has fallen on deaf ears. As a result the CFMU have no baseline data , so they don't know when we need flow control. The CFMU have been politely told by the IAA "if we need your help we will ask for it-get the message" When ever flow control is mentioned you had better duck for cover. As a result whenever a controller sits in they have no way of knowing how busy it is going to be and if its gets really busy there is no flow control available because its too late to flow the traffic-its already there.
I have personally seen sectors that have been split both vertically and laterally to the max and yet in my opinion( not everyone wil agree) the traffic levels remained above acceptable levels. Again in my opinion the only solution would have been flow control. The amount of flow would a have been negligable ( only a few planes and only a minute or two each) but it would have made all the differance. But we dont even look at these things.
For the hours worked i think our requirement is 37.5 net. We do have a minimum rest period of 11hrs between two consecutive duties but as before this is often flouted. Its funny how in the piloting community the min rest period is completely untouchable yet not in ATC.
I know of one station where the longest duty on each shift cycle is 11 hours and 15 mins. It starts at 9pm the night before and finishes at 815am. Thats 11 hours and 15mins of peak atlantic and terminal traffic. I wonder how the travelling public would react to that if they found out that the controller keeping them safe can barely keep their eyes open from fatigue and high traffic. In our last quartely survey of MOR events it was found that 75% of lateral seperation breaches occured while the controller was on nights-the other night duty being from 0000z to 945am!
.(past 13west and south of 51 north etc) Go figure the probale cause of that issue!
On the issue of press releases nothing upsets or surprises me any more. I take it all with a large grain of salt,read it carefully and then accept or reject each point as made. I'm no master debater (pun intented
!) but i would like to think that the points and issues put forward by the IAA are easily defeated and appear to be defeated here very easily.
At the time DUB closed the IAA released a statement saying that 72 controllers were in training( widely reported in the press) .There is not ONE controller training at the moment. We are due to see 24 in the start of March. Now i see that its 36 students due in March. Great the more the better.
However i have two observations. If we catergorically dont have a staff shortage surely increasing the class intake from 24 to 36 is pure wanton economical excess.Why spend 100,000 euro plus on each trainee if we only need 24 as we are not short of staff-at all (as contented by IAA). Surely the chief exec should answer why we are training more controllers than we need? As PPrune radar said -i think someone is telling porkies!
My second observation on this is : as far as i know the max number of ab initio atco students that can be handled is 24 - hence the size of the original class. Now even if we can squeeze them into some class room and get them to pass the bookwork ( all 36) i am fairly certain that we dont have enough sims to train 36 students-unless the school converts over to a 24 hour schedule and trains students at 3am and 4 am -which would probaly be great practice for working in the real world! But then where would you get the intsructing staff from?????????
There is a rumour going around that the last bunch of early retirees are being tempted back. Yes , thats it sent on their way after a life time of work,give 'em their pension and then hire them back at a huge premium. Now if they want to come back then they are welcome but i wonder about the whole forward planning and economic value of the proposition? But then i am probabaly expecting too much of management-stuff like forward planning , and so forth. Or is it too much to expect ?
Finally i want to end on a positive note. It takes a while to get to the positive bit but bare with me. I know for a fact that there is a sizeable group who are actively looking at jumping ship. Its for the usual reasons-see the world ,adventure but now there is the added factor of the perception that the controlling staff are treated like sht. Only time will tell how many will actually go.
I find it sad that is the case. I want to work for a company that values all its staff, not just the ones in the fancy offices. It doesnt take much to make staff feel appreciated-a lot less than you think.
Imagine how the sentiment and atmosphere and perception of things would change if the staff felt valued ,appreciated and looked after.
Give us a half decent chance of getting some leave,dont try and keep sweating your assets -this isn't a toothbrush factory its a safety critical service, give us enough staff, give us decent breaks while working,reward us for ALL the HUGE projects we have delivered on and will keep delivering on, dont diss us in the press, mend some bridges, give us some humane working conditions like on night duties and night duty facilities (you know what i mean) , and if we believe you, you might find that a lot of your problems go away.
This next bit will upset some people
, but generally some of each stations local management are half decent to deal with 
. Its further up the line the problem is. The local boys are hand-tied and i do feel sorry for them as they are getting from both sides. So perhaps the upper echolons can come to their senses and see sense. This can all go away very quietly if the right tack is taken starting tomorrow morning when there are a series of meetings planned. So to mangement-be smart and play ball.
I see Angus the bull statement(further down the thread) and yes sides are getting entrenched. Its a pity things have deteriorated . Perhaps if the IAA can be persuaded to keep their mouths shut for a while and i know Impact dont like talking to the press judging by their form so far then some business can be done in the quiet. I too ,like Angus ,and all staff actually dont want to strike-it just gets very very messy and Angus is right that anyone who has first hand experince of an all out strike would counsel against it. However it is most definitely a case of lack of any progress there is only one way this will end up-in a strike. If there was progress this week I for one would keep my mouth shut and let them get on with it and wait and see what comes out of it but only within a timeframe that would generate results i.e max of a week. No progress in that week then all bets are off-if there is progress then well and good and i think all sides would welcome progress.
We shall wait and see.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
PPrune radar's post expressed the point excellently on what 'voluntary' means and i have to say it was very very interesting reading to see how NATS treat their staff. Much food for thought there. It is also interesting to note , that if memory serves me correctly, our esteemed chief exec spent quite a while on "secondment" to NATS so Im sure he got a full run down on staffing,and T+C's of controllers.
Quote
"It is common practice among all Air Traffic Service Providers to apply traffic restrictions where demand exceeds the capacity of the system. Air Traffic Controllers are very well protected from overload through a defined workload threshold.
I take that with a very large grain of salt.
As the lowestlevel said "This in simple terms is Flow Control/Management.
These particular words are "dirty words" as far as Shannon Management are concerned. Whie restrictions do get put in place for holiday flights on the T Routes, flow restrictions are never implemented in Shannon for regular day to day NAT traffic, or are a lower number of NAT tracks requested due to staffing shortages" but if i can give a bit of background here if i may.
Controllers have been calling for a sector capacity study for years. For years it has fallen on deaf ears. As a result the CFMU have no baseline data , so they don't know when we need flow control. The CFMU have been politely told by the IAA "if we need your help we will ask for it-get the message" When ever flow control is mentioned you had better duck for cover. As a result whenever a controller sits in they have no way of knowing how busy it is going to be and if its gets really busy there is no flow control available because its too late to flow the traffic-its already there.
I have personally seen sectors that have been split both vertically and laterally to the max and yet in my opinion( not everyone wil agree) the traffic levels remained above acceptable levels. Again in my opinion the only solution would have been flow control. The amount of flow would a have been negligable ( only a few planes and only a minute or two each) but it would have made all the differance. But we dont even look at these things.
For the hours worked i think our requirement is 37.5 net. We do have a minimum rest period of 11hrs between two consecutive duties but as before this is often flouted. Its funny how in the piloting community the min rest period is completely untouchable yet not in ATC.
I know of one station where the longest duty on each shift cycle is 11 hours and 15 mins. It starts at 9pm the night before and finishes at 815am. Thats 11 hours and 15mins of peak atlantic and terminal traffic. I wonder how the travelling public would react to that if they found out that the controller keeping them safe can barely keep their eyes open from fatigue and high traffic. In our last quartely survey of MOR events it was found that 75% of lateral seperation breaches occured while the controller was on nights-the other night duty being from 0000z to 945am!
.(past 13west and south of 51 north etc) Go figure the probale cause of that issue!On the issue of press releases nothing upsets or surprises me any more. I take it all with a large grain of salt,read it carefully and then accept or reject each point as made. I'm no master debater (pun intented
!) but i would like to think that the points and issues put forward by the IAA are easily defeated and appear to be defeated here very easily. At the time DUB closed the IAA released a statement saying that 72 controllers were in training( widely reported in the press) .There is not ONE controller training at the moment. We are due to see 24 in the start of March. Now i see that its 36 students due in March. Great the more the better.
However i have two observations. If we catergorically dont have a staff shortage surely increasing the class intake from 24 to 36 is pure wanton economical excess.Why spend 100,000 euro plus on each trainee if we only need 24 as we are not short of staff-at all (as contented by IAA). Surely the chief exec should answer why we are training more controllers than we need? As PPrune radar said -i think someone is telling porkies!
My second observation on this is : as far as i know the max number of ab initio atco students that can be handled is 24 - hence the size of the original class. Now even if we can squeeze them into some class room and get them to pass the bookwork ( all 36) i am fairly certain that we dont have enough sims to train 36 students-unless the school converts over to a 24 hour schedule and trains students at 3am and 4 am -which would probaly be great practice for working in the real world! But then where would you get the intsructing staff from?????????
There is a rumour going around that the last bunch of early retirees are being tempted back. Yes , thats it sent on their way after a life time of work,give 'em their pension and then hire them back at a huge premium. Now if they want to come back then they are welcome but i wonder about the whole forward planning and economic value of the proposition? But then i am probabaly expecting too much of management-stuff like forward planning , and so forth. Or is it too much to expect ?
Finally i want to end on a positive note. It takes a while to get to the positive bit but bare with me. I know for a fact that there is a sizeable group who are actively looking at jumping ship. Its for the usual reasons-see the world ,adventure but now there is the added factor of the perception that the controlling staff are treated like sh
t. Only time will tell how many will actually go.I find it sad that is the case. I want to work for a company that values all its staff, not just the ones in the fancy offices. It doesnt take much to make staff feel appreciated-a lot less than you think.
Imagine how the sentiment and atmosphere and perception of things would change if the staff felt valued ,appreciated and looked after.
Give us a half decent chance of getting some leave,dont try and keep sweating your assets -this isn't a toothbrush factory its a safety critical service, give us enough staff, give us decent breaks while working,reward us for ALL the HUGE projects we have delivered on and will keep delivering on, dont diss us in the press, mend some bridges, give us some humane working conditions like on night duties and night duty facilities (you know what i mean) , and if we believe you, you might find that a lot of your problems go away.
This next bit will upset some people
, but generally some of each stations local management are half decent to deal with . Its further up the line the problem is. The local boys are hand-tied and i do feel sorry for them as they are getting from both sides. So perhaps the upper echolons can come to their senses and see sense. This can all go away very quietly if the right tack is taken starting tomorrow morning when there are a series of meetings planned. So to mangement-be smart and play ball.I see Angus the bull statement(further down the thread) and yes sides are getting entrenched. Its a pity things have deteriorated . Perhaps if the IAA can be persuaded to keep their mouths shut for a while and i know Impact dont like talking to the press judging by their form so far then some business can be done in the quiet. I too ,like Angus ,and all staff actually dont want to strike-it just gets very very messy and Angus is right that anyone who has first hand experince of an all out strike would counsel against it. However it is most definitely a case of lack of any progress there is only one way this will end up-in a strike. If there was progress this week I for one would keep my mouth shut and let them get on with it and wait and see what comes out of it but only within a timeframe that would generate results i.e max of a week. No progress in that week then all bets are off-if there is progress then well and good and i think all sides would welcome progress.
We shall wait and see.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 10th Feb 2008 at 23:06.
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My worry with the increase of trainees from 24 to 36 is that they will be rushed through or let through the school even though they are not good enough. It has happened before.....How is an already understaffed operation going to train 36 trainees and 15 direct entries.......
With what has been going on for the last few weeks, the morale ruining press releases issued by the IAA and the seemingly unsupportive attitute of the very union that should be supporting the controllers the atmosphere must be absolutely terribe to the point of wondering is it safe to let controllers continually work under these conditions.....
There should be no politics when it comes to safety......but it seems politics is turning an already bad situatuon into a dangerous one
With what has been going on for the last few weeks, the morale ruining press releases issued by the IAA and the seemingly unsupportive attitute of the very union that should be supporting the controllers the atmosphere must be absolutely terribe to the point of wondering is it safe to let controllers continually work under these conditions.....
There should be no politics when it comes to safety......but it seems politics is turning an already bad situatuon into a dangerous one
Last edited by alwaysmovin; 10th Feb 2008 at 20:52.
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Before this and similar threads I was thinking that my management is ,
but now it seems that they know their job.
we are overstaffed for 100 % , with the highest traffic growth in Europe, with bunch of projects in progress and so on...
My advice to ANSPs all over Europe. You should do next steps in order to solve problems :
-management must possess lack of particular knowledge
-take as much as possible credits and loans from EBRD ( they don't ask anything)
-Future? Who cares about it?
and finally
-uf? it is too late
,but now it seems that they know their job.
we are overstaffed for 100 % , with the highest traffic growth in Europe, with bunch of projects in progress and so on...
My advice to ANSPs all over Europe. You should do next steps in order to solve problems :
-management must possess lack of particular knowledge
-take as much as possible credits and loans from EBRD ( they don't ask anything)
-Future? Who cares about it?
and finally
-uf? it is too late
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"Everyone should remember that if there was an incident in the morning, it would be her job to stand up for the controllers involved..."
No it would be the Corporate Communications Managers job to protect the IAA.
I, like many of my ATCO colleagues, have absolutely no doubt that the unfortunate ATCO would be left out to dry.
Now I have absolutely no doubt that IMPACT would leave me swinging too.
All we have is Each other. Stay strong
No it would be the Corporate Communications Managers job to protect the IAA.
I, like many of my ATCO colleagues, have absolutely no doubt that the unfortunate ATCO would be left out to dry.
Now I have absolutely no doubt that IMPACT would leave me swinging too.
All we have is Each other. Stay strong
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Better Believe it....
I have never seen any positive press given to controllers.
IAA management must be great at their jobs though as the pencil pushers get their yearly bonuses and company cars and great press so they must really have the whole business thing running smoothly. I'm surprised that they need us at all. Oh wait, i forgot that they need us to earn that €135 milion for them as they cant generate revenue for them selves. silly me If they stop working would anyone including the public notice?
If we stop working..........
I have never seen any positive press given to controllers.
IAA management must be great at their jobs though as the pencil pushers get their yearly bonuses and company cars and great press so they must really have the whole business thing running smoothly. I'm surprised that they need us at all. Oh wait, i forgot that they need us to earn that €135 milion for them as they cant generate revenue for them selves. silly me
If they stop working would anyone including the public notice?If we stop working..........
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My two cents ,
I understand the situation and I would like to give my support for IAA atcos but I also want to say my opinion about strike in ATC.
It'll never work.
Public pressure will be enormous but not towards management . ATCOs will be designated as primary problem. Because you have high salaries and other benefits which is usually untouchable for majority of people.
You wouldn't change management opinion because they believe that everything is OK. how it is OK? yes, it is OK because job is still done. As long as all flight planes are terminated after Missed approach point at your airfield -everything is OK!
Correct me if wrong but you didn't elect(nominate) your management so you wouldn't change it!
Management of union and ATCA always work for management of ANSP.
If you are understaffed it couldn't be changed in a few days,even you take people from LHR,FRA they will need time to plug in. Situation is even worse with local students.
From my point of view the only solution that remains in hands of IAA atcos is refusing overtime. You must choose between higher salary and private life. But it is very sensitive area. Soon or latter IAA atcos will realize that there is too much loans for pay, no one will sell the new BMW and buy FIAT 500, sell flat in Downtown in buy cottage in countryside and so on.
unreasonable wish for money ,leads you to current situation.
Just because of this( and climate of course) South of Europe is better.
I will never be able to buy the newest BMW, but I am working( and my colleagues as well) 144 hours/month- 85-95 hours on frequency- and have 2 months annual leave that is HOLLY BOOK. No one is able to steal it.
I understand the situation and I would like to give my support for IAA atcos but I also want to say my opinion about strike in ATC.
It'll never work.
Public pressure will be enormous but not towards management . ATCOs will be designated as primary problem. Because you have high salaries and other benefits which is usually untouchable for majority of people.
You wouldn't change management opinion because they believe that everything is OK. how it is OK? yes, it is OK because job is still done. As long as all flight planes are terminated after Missed approach point at your airfield -everything is OK!
Correct me if wrong but you didn't elect(nominate) your management so you wouldn't change it!
Management of union and ATCA always work for management of ANSP.
If you are understaffed it couldn't be changed in a few days,even you take people from LHR,FRA they will need time to plug in. Situation is even worse with local students.
From my point of view the only solution that remains in hands of IAA atcos is refusing overtime. You must choose between higher salary and private life. But it is very sensitive area. Soon or latter IAA atcos will realize that there is too much loans for pay, no one will sell the new BMW and buy FIAT 500, sell flat in Downtown in buy cottage in countryside and so on.
unreasonable wish for money ,leads you to current situation.
Just because of this( and climate of course) South of Europe is better.
I will never be able to buy the newest BMW, but I am working( and my colleagues as well) 144 hours/month- 85-95 hours on frequency- and have 2 months annual leave that is HOLLY BOOK. No one is able to steal it.
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2 Months AL and 90 hours a month!!!
Any jobs for tower controllers down there?
"Everyone should remember that if there was an incident in the morning, it would be her job to stand up for the controllers involved..."
Ahh the innocence......
Even when a controller has been cleared of any negligence by the AAIU or whoever they are still treated like s**t by management. One incident in Dublin last year (a Class A airprox) was "investigated" by management without interviewing the controllers or showing them play backs. Even though the incident arose from poorly thought out procedures introduced by management the controllers take all the blame in the report.
Make no Mistake Angus if you F**K up the comms manager will be in line with management shovelling s**t on your head. Her Job Is purely to insulate Management from from the press and the public
Any jobs for tower controllers down there?
"Everyone should remember that if there was an incident in the morning, it would be her job to stand up for the controllers involved..."
Ahh the innocence......
Even when a controller has been cleared of any negligence by the AAIU or whoever they are still treated like s**t by management. One incident in Dublin last year (a Class A airprox) was "investigated" by management without interviewing the controllers or showing them play backs. Even though the incident arose from poorly thought out procedures introduced by management the controllers take all the blame in the report.
Make no Mistake Angus if you F**K up the comms manager will be in line with management shovelling s**t on your head. Her Job Is purely to insulate Management from from the press and the public
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I understand the situation and I would like to give my support for IAA atcos but I also want to say my opinion about strike in ATC.
It'll never work.
It'll never work.
Stop doing voluntary operational duties or selling your leave.
Stop participating in projects if they are not taking place within your rostered hours.
Ensure that any travel time, combined with the meeting or project you are attending, does not exceed your nominal shift time if you had been on duty.
Refuse to undertake any duties which will earn you time off in lieu, make sure they are taking place during part of your rostered hours.
Insist on full manning as per the agreed staffing schedule. If full staffing can't be provided, then you either close sectors, or put in place an appropriate regulation to protect the sector (and yourself). Don't bust a gut like most of us do today to make it work.
The effect will be that projects will be delayed (leading to questions from operators and airlines as promised capacity increases will not be delivered on time), staff shortages will not be covered leading to the operation running at less capacity and probably requiring regulation, and finally, the delays racked up will be firmly attributed to the ANSP involved as staff shortages.
Realistically, this would hurt the airlines. And if they hurt, you can be sure they will be beating a path to the ANSP management and vocally asking them to get things sorted damn quickly.
And none of the above is industrial action, since you will be working exactly the hours you are conditioned to work. Nothing more and nothing less.
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@PPRuNe radar,
Now it is obvious deference between member and moderator.
You explained exactly what I wanted to say.
I hope that it will help to Irish colleagues, but they have to take proactive approach to problems. I can't plug in tomorrow afternoon instead of them.
Only if I get job at places: refer to thread "TOP 5"
Now it is obvious deference between member and moderator.
You explained exactly what I wanted to say.
I hope that it will help to Irish colleagues, but they have to take proactive approach to problems. I can't plug in tomorrow afternoon instead of them.
Any jobs for tower controllers down there?
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Amazing how the many night closures of Dublin between 0130-0200 and 0400-0500 never get mentioned by them and by the way i believe it happening again tonight and tomorrow night as well (unless things have changed).
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"either do or do not do. There is no try".......yoda
Having read the entire thread several things occur to me,
1. There are no bridges named after me
2. The bitterness and vindictiveness of The IAA press releases are a sign of the absolute terror that must be rife in HQ right now. We've lifted up the rock and exposed them to the sunshine and unwelcome attention of the public and the media in a way that they can't control so they lash out venomously in all directions. It's obvious that they have no control, I mean we're doing nothing wrong, unsafe or illegal so they have to slander us and bring in the money issue as it's all they understand.
3. We have excellent public support at the moment, the public are not so stupid as to confuse more staffing with more money, the fact that we as a group are at a financial loss because we won't do overtime is refreshing for them. Most of all, the public need to feel safe and we have the high moral ground on that. Management know this.
4. Whatever solution is negotiated it will depend completely 100% upon our support and goodwill to implement it so we should take this opportunity to stitch them because we will never get this chance again. We cannot allow a repeat of Kilkenny 2003 so we need to put IMPACT in no doubt that their PPP so far has to improve dramatically and never falter again. We must ensure that when this is over that all our concerns are addressed in a manner that is acceptable to us and that sufficient safeguards are built into the system that management never treat us (and by proxy the travelling public) this badly again.
5. Management know this. If I could credit them with any intelligence I would guess that the Slanderous press releases are designed to taunt us intodoing something stupid. WE ARE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS we should be proud of this and we can take anything that these idiots print about us because we know what real pressure is all about. If we deal with this in the professional manner we man our stations with we will beat them. Management know this. Keep the heads up, speak softly and carry a big stick.
6. This is the most Unity and Harmony I've ever known between the 3 stations. Lets keep that up, as a united workforce we have the balance of power in our favour, we must retain that power.
7. There are no statues to me either......
1. There are no bridges named after me
2. The bitterness and vindictiveness of The IAA press releases are a sign of the absolute terror that must be rife in HQ right now. We've lifted up the rock and exposed them to the sunshine and unwelcome attention of the public and the media in a way that they can't control so they lash out venomously in all directions. It's obvious that they have no control, I mean we're doing nothing wrong, unsafe or illegal so they have to slander us and bring in the money issue as it's all they understand.
3. We have excellent public support at the moment, the public are not so stupid as to confuse more staffing with more money, the fact that we as a group are at a financial loss because we won't do overtime is refreshing for them. Most of all, the public need to feel safe and we have the high moral ground on that. Management know this.
4. Whatever solution is negotiated it will depend completely 100% upon our support and goodwill to implement it so we should take this opportunity to stitch them because we will never get this chance again. We cannot allow a repeat of Kilkenny 2003 so we need to put IMPACT in no doubt that their PPP so far has to improve dramatically and never falter again. We must ensure that when this is over that all our concerns are addressed in a manner that is acceptable to us and that sufficient safeguards are built into the system that management never treat us (and by proxy the travelling public) this badly again.
5. Management know this. If I could credit them with any intelligence I would guess that the Slanderous press releases are designed to taunt us intodoing something stupid. WE ARE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS we should be proud of this and we can take anything that these idiots print about us because we know what real pressure is all about. If we deal with this in the professional manner we man our stations with we will beat them. Management know this. Keep the heads up, speak softly and carry a big stick.
6. This is the most Unity and Harmony I've ever known between the 3 stations. Lets keep that up, as a united workforce we have the balance of power in our favour, we must retain that power.
7. There are no statues to me either......
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Eoghan Corry
Just read Mr. Corrys article in the Herald today.
Unfortunately Mr. Corry seems to think that we are striking because we want to pressure those poor management types into a lucrative overtime deal and dictate staffing levels to our bosses. he even compares us to the dreaded French Air Traffic Controller and calls our refusal to work 60 hour weeks and vote for industrial action "a Disease"
Now, I may accept that management throw insults during a dispute but i will not accept them from a journalist.
Still, on the off chance he reads this (how do i post this link annonymously!!)
I will endeavour to enlighten him.
Firstly, how dare he describe any legitimate industrial action by a group of dedicated professionals whether French or Irish as a disease, that is both inflammatory and I think libellous.
The IAA have been warned by Unions and staff that there was a staffing crisis for years now. IAA refused to hire any extra staff regardless of the need until jan of this year because to hire staff any earlier would wipe out any savings made on the Voluntary retirement scheme. Ironically the IAA are now trying to re hire the people that retired under that scheme because there are no staff to train the new recruits. He states that Iaa manegment saw the shortfall coming so maybe he should ask them why they did nothing about it until now.
He says that the IAA are looking for direct entry controllers. Why are there no vacancy notices on the IAA website for controllers?
Controllers are trying to press home an advantage in negotiating a lucrative overtime deal.
Let me say this in simple English so he understands.
WE DONT WANT TO DO ANY OVERTIME ANY MORE regardless of lucrative deals. We want all the time off we are entitled to, nothing less.
I am sick of coming to work Exhausted and my phone ringing 7 times on each of my days off. Enough.
Only 2% of traffic is handled on overtime
Dublin
Jun '07 - Dec '07 400 odd days covered by call in including numerous occurences of controllers working 2 out of 3 rest days and 1 occasion where someone worked an extra 23 hours in one twist.
Jan 1st '08 til Jan 12 60 call ins
Shannon
92 callins in one month
Is this the kind of service Mr. Corry would like us to return to? The IAA lied Eoghan get over it and ask them why.
The only overtime agreement most of us want is one that limits the amount overtimean individual can do.
Staff are trying to question who decides staffing levels.
Well obviously management are not competent to decide staffing levels so we might as well try.
There are no written or unwritten agreements that say I must attend for overtime as part of my conditions. Again, the IAA lied get over it.
Simple maths
as an employer you have a number of staff ( the exact number is irrelevant)
You need that staff to
provide a service
cover for leave
cover parental leave
cover maternity leave
cover job sharing
cover project work to ensure future safety
cover Admin duties
provide fatigue and meal breaks
cover sick leave.
If in reality
You dont cover any leave or parental leave or fatigue breaks AND you still require your staff to attend for an extra 1800 duties per year you are understaffed. And have been for years. This is not a short term deficit and even if I accepted the IAA's logic I'm not obliged to cover that.
Mr Corry needs to realise that Controllers are human and need normal human things like respect and time with their friends and family.
When was the last time anyone told him he couldn't have a day off for his childs communion or wedding.
ATC is stressful enough when you only have to deal with Aeroplanes.
If he thinks I'm angry wait til the French get him!!!!
Unfortunately Mr. Corry seems to think that we are striking because we want to pressure those poor management types into a lucrative overtime deal and dictate staffing levels to our bosses. he even compares us to the dreaded French Air Traffic Controller and calls our refusal to work 60 hour weeks and vote for industrial action "a Disease"
Now, I may accept that management throw insults during a dispute but i will not accept them from a journalist.
Still, on the off chance he reads this (how do i post this link annonymously!!)
I will endeavour to enlighten him.
Firstly, how dare he describe any legitimate industrial action by a group of dedicated professionals whether French or Irish as a disease, that is both inflammatory and I think libellous.
The IAA have been warned by Unions and staff that there was a staffing crisis for years now. IAA refused to hire any extra staff regardless of the need until jan of this year because to hire staff any earlier would wipe out any savings made on the Voluntary retirement scheme. Ironically the IAA are now trying to re hire the people that retired under that scheme because there are no staff to train the new recruits. He states that Iaa manegment saw the shortfall coming so maybe he should ask them why they did nothing about it until now.
He says that the IAA are looking for direct entry controllers. Why are there no vacancy notices on the IAA website for controllers?
Controllers are trying to press home an advantage in negotiating a lucrative overtime deal.
Let me say this in simple English so he understands.
WE DONT WANT TO DO ANY OVERTIME ANY MORE regardless of lucrative deals. We want all the time off we are entitled to, nothing less.
I am sick of coming to work Exhausted and my phone ringing 7 times on each of my days off. Enough.
Only 2% of traffic is handled on overtime
Dublin
Jun '07 - Dec '07 400 odd days covered by call in including numerous occurences of controllers working 2 out of 3 rest days and 1 occasion where someone worked an extra 23 hours in one twist.
Jan 1st '08 til Jan 12 60 call ins
Shannon
92 callins in one month
Is this the kind of service Mr. Corry would like us to return to? The IAA lied Eoghan get over it and ask them why.
The only overtime agreement most of us want is one that limits the amount overtimean individual can do.
Staff are trying to question who decides staffing levels.
Well obviously management are not competent to decide staffing levels so we might as well try.
There are no written or unwritten agreements that say I must attend for overtime as part of my conditions. Again, the IAA lied get over it.
Simple maths
as an employer you have a number of staff ( the exact number is irrelevant)
You need that staff to
provide a service
cover for leave
cover parental leave
cover maternity leave
cover job sharing
cover project work to ensure future safety
cover Admin duties
provide fatigue and meal breaks
cover sick leave.
If in reality
You dont cover any leave or parental leave or fatigue breaks AND you still require your staff to attend for an extra 1800 duties per year you are understaffed. And have been for years. This is not a short term deficit and even if I accepted the IAA's logic I'm not obliged to cover that.
Mr Corry needs to realise that Controllers are human and need normal human things like respect and time with their friends and family.
When was the last time anyone told him he couldn't have a day off for his childs communion or wedding.
ATC is stressful enough when you only have to deal with Aeroplanes.
If he thinks I'm angry wait til the French get him!!!!
Last edited by norby; 11th Feb 2008 at 16:05.
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History repeats....
I am not surprised to read these comments coming from the inmates of the IAA. I find it interesting that they are exactly the same as those I heard for 35 years when I worked as an ATCO. The leopard has not and cannot change the spots.... Have a look at the Staff Attitude survey carried out in 1996 and surmise what it might contain if the same was done today - scathing management, the old boys club, ignoring the company's most important asset (ATCOs) and ensuring the corporate image projected is not tainted by the 'real' truth being told. The earlier comment about a near-miss or mid-air and the result, spoke volumes about the expected response - think back to how ATCOs were treated during and after the AirForce 1 near miss...
IAA ATCOs have the courage to follow your instincts with this one. It is not about revenge it is about ensuring that the profession is shown the respect it deserves and the place of the ATCO is protected. The job is not getting any easier in Irish airspace as those of you working there know only too well. This could be the tip of a very sharp and cold iceberg of change that may not be palatable and may I say, possibly not SAFE either....
Go neiri and bothar libh a cairdi.
IAA ATCOs have the courage to follow your instincts with this one. It is not about revenge it is about ensuring that the profession is shown the respect it deserves and the place of the ATCO is protected. The job is not getting any easier in Irish airspace as those of you working there know only too well. This could be the tip of a very sharp and cold iceberg of change that may not be palatable and may I say, possibly not SAFE either....
Go neiri and bothar libh a cairdi.
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Am I to understand that you won't be leaving your well earned retirement to give your wonderful former employers a dig out in their time of need?
How dare you indulge in wildcat industrial action by refusing to attend for extra duties!!
How dare you indulge in wildcat industrial action by refusing to attend for extra duties!!
Last edited by norby; 11th Feb 2008 at 17:41.
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First Post....here goes!
Having read all the posts here and been frustrated by the slow pace of progress in all staffing issues, (and astounded by the fast pace of system and procedural/airspace changes), It seems this issue is set to come to a head in the very near future unless............!
It might be too much to ask, but for all ATCOs (and management) would not the first and most welcome step be, for the IAA to ADMIT to a staff shortage?
The recruitment of 36 trainees, the presence of an overtime requirement, and the requests to retirees to return, all acknowlege this fact! All the IAA has to do is now is admit it publicly!
I believe that if this was done, then it would calm the situation considerably, and allow for a reasonable discussion on how best to rectify the situation and move forward.
At least then we would see that the Iaa management live in the real world!
It might be too much to ask, but for all ATCOs (and management) would not the first and most welcome step be, for the IAA to ADMIT to a staff shortage?
The recruitment of 36 trainees, the presence of an overtime requirement, and the requests to retirees to return, all acknowlege this fact! All the IAA has to do is now is admit it publicly!
I believe that if this was done, then it would calm the situation considerably, and allow for a reasonable discussion on how best to rectify the situation and move forward.
At least then we would see that the Iaa management live in the real world!
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Of course the IAA live in the real world. That's why they are getting away with everything. If they were as idealistic as us they would be corporate doormats.
There are a lot of peoples jobs in and around Shannon being affected this, hauliers for example, whose future depends on an already unsteady airport. There is bad feeling in the public domain, some because people think their jobs are at risk, some because people think their holidays they booked are at risk. The IAA is doing its best to make sure this resentment is pointed at us. Lying in the National media about us when it's their shoddy cost-driven employment strategies that caused this.
No one has refused to turn up for rostered duty or to sit in a position they didn't like. No one has even declared a work to rule. That alone would sink them. All we are doing is keeping our days off to ourselves.
Have those who never do overtime been engaging in industrial action for years now?
Would you like to start your weeks work and finish it 92.5 hours later having done 5 attendances with a gross time of 43.5 hours? That's the equivalent percentage of a 9 to 5'er starting on a Monday morning 9AM and having done 5 days work done by Friday morning 7AM. And then they want you to come in on your day off when you haven't seen your family for 4 days.
Some one made the analogy today "It's like working in a lighthouse." No one would know you were dead until the boat comes back in 4 or 5 days.
The dreaded ballot was a show of solidarity that has the IAA troubled. They have re-worded their Press releases from "Strike" to "Industrial Action" to "Disruptive Action". What's next? "Unhelpful?" Try "Dissatisfied but still working big Eejits"
We want this sorted.
We know it's going to need an interim solution until the new cadets are operational. But who wants to deal with some one who is stabbing them in the back?
NUFF SAID!
There are a lot of peoples jobs in and around Shannon being affected this, hauliers for example, whose future depends on an already unsteady airport. There is bad feeling in the public domain, some because people think their jobs are at risk, some because people think their holidays they booked are at risk. The IAA is doing its best to make sure this resentment is pointed at us. Lying in the National media about us when it's their shoddy cost-driven employment strategies that caused this.
No one has refused to turn up for rostered duty or to sit in a position they didn't like. No one has even declared a work to rule. That alone would sink them. All we are doing is keeping our days off to ourselves.
Have those who never do overtime been engaging in industrial action for years now?
Would you like to start your weeks work and finish it 92.5 hours later having done 5 attendances with a gross time of 43.5 hours? That's the equivalent percentage of a 9 to 5'er starting on a Monday morning 9AM and having done 5 days work done by Friday morning 7AM. And then they want you to come in on your day off when you haven't seen your family for 4 days.
Some one made the analogy today "It's like working in a lighthouse." No one would know you were dead until the boat comes back in 4 or 5 days.
The dreaded ballot was a show of solidarity that has the IAA troubled. They have re-worded their Press releases from "Strike" to "Industrial Action" to "Disruptive Action". What's next? "Unhelpful?" Try "Dissatisfied but still working big Eejits"
We want this sorted.
We know it's going to need an interim solution until the new cadets are operational. But who wants to deal with some one who is stabbing them in the back?
NUFF SAID!