ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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There are at least 2 controllers in dublin and 1 in shannon who are regularly "rostered" for duty in EICK, as far as I know. This takes the form of one shift cycle in crk, one in snn, or a month in crk and a month in snn. This system certainly applied last summer and late into '07.
Obviously one of the atcos in dub was to be going there again.
Nuts, eh? Short staffed in EICK.......NAH!!!
Obviously one of the atcos in dub was to be going there again.
Nuts, eh? Short staffed in EICK.......NAH!!!
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keep up the good work collegues there is no rush we are in a great position of strength due to the joke that is IAA management.....stick together for the safety of our airspace,
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only posting to clarify ...just in case is necessary to do so as I don't want unnecessary misundertandings... opinions posted by spanador have nothing to do with the real "spanish stuff", if you know what i mean....
.regards from kiwiland.gnz.
.regards from kiwiland.gnz.
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av8boy,
Perhaps if I explain it a bit more you will realise what I am talking about.
In the early 90's the Irish ATC system was short staffed. Kind of the same position that they now find themselves in.
Taking the Dublin operation as an example -
This was despite having as an example a qualified ATCO at Dublin employed as a blip driver in the school while the operation calimed they were short of staff.
Why was this ATCO not used for operational duties - ask the union who blocked such a move.
To solve the shortage quickly the Authorities recruited qualified controllers (including bringing this ATCO back to operational duty).
However, thanks to the union, these direct entry controllers who were multi discipline qualified i.e. most qualified as Tower, approach and approach radar as well as OJTI and more than 1 qualified in area radar also...........were only permitted to check out on the approach radar function at Dublin.
Why you may ask were these controllers limited to just one position with their qualifications and experience - the answer is mind blowing -
The IAA recruited people into the ATC assistant grade. In time they did a tower course and worked in the tower only until a vacancy came up on area procedural / approach radar (15 years doing tower only not being uncomon) they then did approach radar, area procedural and tower positions until a vacancy came up on area radar whereupon they got to do area radar.
The Union recognised this as career progression and stuck a spanner in the direct entry scheme by demanding that the direct entries could only do approach radar until the most junior member of staff (an ATC assistant at the time) has passed through tower, approach radar and on to area).
There was in the early 90's an ATCO paid as an ATCO but working as an assistant at Dublin ACC.
This whole union blocking system is probably why multi qualified controllers who only do shannon approach radar at Dublin ACC. I.E the union prevents them being checked out on other positions because they would then block "career progression" of more junior Dublin based personnel.
That means that the number of sector qualifications available on a roster can be less than required - not because there is not enough staff but because those qualified to do it are not allowed to and those empty searts are reserved for other staff who are not yet qualified.
That is one example of why the situation is not just a simple shortage of staff. It is a rather complicated and unionised / politically motivated shortage of staff.
The solution may be to recruit direct entries. This is being flagged as being on a fixed term contract basis - why? Would it not seem more logical to recruit direct entries now on a permanent basis, full the gaps and recruit new trainees to cover expansion, retirements etc etc.
No. The Union insists on a fixed term contract only despite it being harder to recruit controllers on that basis. Why? We are back again to the unions positon of parachuting new controllers into Area radar positions which are seen as future promotion options for current staff........i.e. if you fill all the area radar vacancies with highly qualified 20 somnethings on a permanent basis, there is a long long wait for some approach radar controllers before they get to do area radar.
I hope that has provided you with a little insight to just how the system at the IAA is not all the union would like you to believe. Note that for balance it is not as the IAA say either. You have to take both side's positions with a big barrow load of salt.
Note that means more money for coming in - not an end to overtime.
--------------------
The Highlands and Islands in the UK has operated for years on the basis that controllers would move from one location to another to cover for example leave. They held multiple unit validations. This is not unusual in the ATC world and would not be regarded as understaffing.
Regards,
DFC
Perhaps if I explain it a bit more you will realise what I am talking about.
In the early 90's the Irish ATC system was short staffed. Kind of the same position that they now find themselves in.
Taking the Dublin operation as an example -
This was despite having as an example a qualified ATCO at Dublin employed as a blip driver in the school while the operation calimed they were short of staff.
Why was this ATCO not used for operational duties - ask the union who blocked such a move.
To solve the shortage quickly the Authorities recruited qualified controllers (including bringing this ATCO back to operational duty).
However, thanks to the union, these direct entry controllers who were multi discipline qualified i.e. most qualified as Tower, approach and approach radar as well as OJTI and more than 1 qualified in area radar also...........were only permitted to check out on the approach radar function at Dublin.
Why you may ask were these controllers limited to just one position with their qualifications and experience - the answer is mind blowing -
The IAA recruited people into the ATC assistant grade. In time they did a tower course and worked in the tower only until a vacancy came up on area procedural / approach radar (15 years doing tower only not being uncomon) they then did approach radar, area procedural and tower positions until a vacancy came up on area radar whereupon they got to do area radar.
The Union recognised this as career progression and stuck a spanner in the direct entry scheme by demanding that the direct entries could only do approach radar until the most junior member of staff (an ATC assistant at the time) has passed through tower, approach radar and on to area).
There was in the early 90's an ATCO paid as an ATCO but working as an assistant at Dublin ACC.
This whole union blocking system is probably why multi qualified controllers who only do shannon approach radar at Dublin ACC. I.E the union prevents them being checked out on other positions because they would then block "career progression" of more junior Dublin based personnel.
That means that the number of sector qualifications available on a roster can be less than required - not because there is not enough staff but because those qualified to do it are not allowed to and those empty searts are reserved for other staff who are not yet qualified.
That is one example of why the situation is not just a simple shortage of staff. It is a rather complicated and unionised / politically motivated shortage of staff.
The solution may be to recruit direct entries. This is being flagged as being on a fixed term contract basis - why? Would it not seem more logical to recruit direct entries now on a permanent basis, full the gaps and recruit new trainees to cover expansion, retirements etc etc.
No. The Union insists on a fixed term contract only despite it being harder to recruit controllers on that basis. Why? We are back again to the unions positon of parachuting new controllers into Area radar positions which are seen as future promotion options for current staff........i.e. if you fill all the area radar vacancies with highly qualified 20 somnethings on a permanent basis, there is a long long wait for some approach radar controllers before they get to do area radar.
I hope that has provided you with a little insight to just how the system at the IAA is not all the union would like you to believe. Note that for balance it is not as the IAA say either. You have to take both side's positions with a big barrow load of salt.
Air Traffic Controllers are demanding significantly enhanced extra attendance payments and changes to roster attendances both of which are included in a package of issues under discussion as part of a process at the Labour Relations Commission.
--------------------
The Highlands and Islands in the UK has operated for years on the basis that controllers would move from one location to another to cover for example leave. They held multiple unit validations. This is not unusual in the ATC world and would not be regarded as understaffing.
Regards,
DFC
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Staff shortages
Here's a thought... if the Corporate comms manager had retained her ratings and was available for duty Shannon might not have closed last night. If any of the recently promoted watch managers ops managers and domain specialists had retained ratings and come off projects and admin duties............
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lads, what's milo being doing since he left atc.?you remember him.....the guy who was atc head of ......entertainment......or something like that..before comicaliam that is....you remember him.......the great aviator that couldn't handle twins and had the personality of a brick.....a real billy no mates.......hmmmm?
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DFC,
You Say
"IAA recruited people into the ATC assistant grade. In time they did a tower course and worked in the tower only until a vacancy came up on area procedural / approach radar (15 years doing tower only not being uncomon) "
Speaking from the shannon Perspective many of these people were left in the training grade for up on 15 years through no fault of their own. All that was required was a rating course and a period of on the job training, problem solved.
Instead they spent about a third of their career in a training grade not being trained and wages to match.
If you want to understand the political motivation of this controller shortage then ask IAA management why they had a significant number of staff who had completed more than half of their controller training requirements, had years of experience with their respective units but were not progressed to controller grade.
"IAA recruited people into the ATC assistant grade. In time they did a tower course and worked in the tower only until a vacancy came up on area procedural / approach radar (15 years doing tower only not being uncomon) "
Speaking from the shannon Perspective many of these people were left in the training grade for up on 15 years through no fault of their own. All that was required was a rating course and a period of on the job training, problem solved.
Instead they spent about a third of their career in a training grade not being trained and wages to match.
If you want to understand the political motivation of this controller shortage then ask IAA management why they had a significant number of staff who had completed more than half of their controller training requirements, had years of experience with their respective units but were not progressed to controller grade.
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DFC
The staffing shortages in all centres has nothing to do with union "blocking". Its mismanagement of staff.
Last year there were 14 staff transferred to dublin to do what 7 staff were doing in shannon, thats not an issue really if they get retrained to work multiple ratings in dublin, to date most have not been given the opportunity to get other ratings. Othere have been transfered and had to wait over 3 months to begin rating training in the interm they did assistant work.
In Shannon many staff have had some ratings expire (despite their desire to hold onto them) under instruction from management, because its too much bother to keep everyone current and to do the competency checks required, a vast waste of good experienced staff!!
There are numerous other examples of wastefulness, Sending operational controllers on "projects" during the busy summer periods when non current staff were available, etc, etc, the list goes on and on!!!!!
The staffing shortages in all centres has nothing to do with union "blocking". Its mismanagement of staff.
Last year there were 14 staff transferred to dublin to do what 7 staff were doing in shannon, thats not an issue really if they get retrained to work multiple ratings in dublin, to date most have not been given the opportunity to get other ratings. Othere have been transfered and had to wait over 3 months to begin rating training in the interm they did assistant work.
In Shannon many staff have had some ratings expire (despite their desire to hold onto them) under instruction from management, because its too much bother to keep everyone current and to do the competency checks required, a vast waste of good experienced staff!!
There are numerous other examples of wastefulness, Sending operational controllers on "projects" during the busy summer periods when non current staff were available, etc, etc, the list goes on and on!!!!!
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Current management proposal's only have Shannon approach staff down for a Dublin rating in about 2011/12.
Comments were heard from management like :
"I don't think the Shannon guys have the skills to do a Dublin Rating"
"Sure don't you have a great roster with long breaks"
Comments were heard from management like :
"I don't think the Shannon guys have the skills to do a Dublin Rating"
"Sure don't you have a great roster with long breaks"
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All IAA ATCO's
Over the last 10 years or so,IAA management have,and continue to,make serious errors in their staffing calculations.To make matters worse their has been no effort made to basically right the wrongs.Staff at all 3 stations have bent over backwards to assist in trying to resolve ALL of the outstanding issues.We have been met at every juncture with nothing but disrespect and contempt despite the fact that as recent press statements stated "it is managements job to manage not ours".
We must all remain united in our stance and finally once and for all force the powers that be to finally do what they are all paid handsome salaries to do-Manage.Gone are the days of just putting up and shutting up.In this day and age,and in an industry that is safety critical,we must not only demand but also get what are working conditions that are not only the industry norm but also a basic right.
Regarding the perception that all we are looking for is money,well all I can say there is to all those out there-Grow Up.What we demand is more staff and that is all we have been looking for over the last number of years.In the absence of any significant recruitment with regard direct entries,combined with the fact that any new trainees will not be operational for at least 2 years,then a serious problem exists.This can only be solved in one of two ways,Flow Control or a dependable Call In scheme,thus protecting the ATCO's in situ.
Keep focused,stay united.At the end of the day we continue to work our contractual hours and contrary to some suggestions,it is management themselves that have either closed the Towers or implemented the flow control that has been necessary because of their own ineptitude.Incidentally all the recent staffing problems were well flagged in advance.What did they do?Nothing as always just waited till the last minute for the s
t to hit the fan.Then acted.
We must all remain united in our stance and finally once and for all force the powers that be to finally do what they are all paid handsome salaries to do-Manage.Gone are the days of just putting up and shutting up.In this day and age,and in an industry that is safety critical,we must not only demand but also get what are working conditions that are not only the industry norm but also a basic right.
Regarding the perception that all we are looking for is money,well all I can say there is to all those out there-Grow Up.What we demand is more staff and that is all we have been looking for over the last number of years.In the absence of any significant recruitment with regard direct entries,combined with the fact that any new trainees will not be operational for at least 2 years,then a serious problem exists.This can only be solved in one of two ways,Flow Control or a dependable Call In scheme,thus protecting the ATCO's in situ.
Keep focused,stay united.At the end of the day we continue to work our contractual hours and contrary to some suggestions,it is management themselves that have either closed the Towers or implemented the flow control that has been necessary because of their own ineptitude.Incidentally all the recent staffing problems were well flagged in advance.What did they do?Nothing as always just waited till the last minute for the s
t to hit the fan.Then acted.
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I don't think the Shannon guys have the skills to do a Dublin Rating"
"Sure don't you have a great roster with long breaks"
Again, Mangement display their total ignorance and complete lack of concern for the professionalism of their only source of income, sorry their staff.
I'm willing to bet that they count the 14 SNN App staff in the 100 Dublin controllers AND the 150 Shannon controllers though
In Dublin we know that the Shannon lads want Dublin ratings and Cant understand why management wont do a 4 week conversion course and give the lads ratings. God knows we would welcome 14 new approach and tower ratings.
Management in the IAA are simply not qualified to manage an ATC system and the only reason that ATC in Ireland hasn't collapsed up til now is because
Controllers cope.
"Sure don't you have a great roster with long breaks"
Again, Mangement display their total ignorance and complete lack of concern for the professionalism of their only source of income, sorry their staff.
I'm willing to bet that they count the 14 SNN App staff in the 100 Dublin controllers AND the 150 Shannon controllers though
In Dublin we know that the Shannon lads want Dublin ratings and Cant understand why management wont do a 4 week conversion course and give the lads ratings. God knows we would welcome 14 new approach and tower ratings.
Management in the IAA are simply not qualified to manage an ATC system and the only reason that ATC in Ireland hasn't collapsed up til now is because
Controllers cope.
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Lads just ignore the unmentionable one-obviously this person is not who they appear to be. Their sole function is to lob incendary grenades into this thread and detract attention away from the truth. So just ignore whoever he/she is.
Judging by their "opinions" they are being fed very suspect info like suggesting that Impact dont want the direct entries to be permanent. Its Impact PUBLICLY stated policy that they wish the direct entries to be permanent as it has a whole host of benefits for us already there. So the unmentionable speaks complete tosh.
I would like to concur with Av8boy's obvious diagnosis of the unmentionable one as being a complete ass and has nothing what so ever to contribute to this forum and discussion-so just ignore.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
P>S Anyone know why RTE are STILL reporting that Shannon shut last night-it did not and stayed open the whole time?
Judging by their "opinions" they are being fed very suspect info like suggesting that Impact dont want the direct entries to be permanent. Its Impact PUBLICLY stated policy that they wish the direct entries to be permanent as it has a whole host of benefits for us already there. So the unmentionable speaks complete tosh.
I would like to concur with Av8boy's obvious diagnosis of the unmentionable one as being a complete ass and has nothing what so ever to contribute to this forum and discussion-so just ignore.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
P>S Anyone know why RTE are STILL reporting that Shannon shut last night-it did not and stayed open the whole time?
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Anyone know why RTE are STILL reporting that Shannon shut last night-it did not and s
Wasn't de Cassin news-reader that read that one out was it?
Interesting connections between d'IAA and others
Brennan FF and yer Gaffer.
Cassin and Cassin and no doubt one or two other dependable 'objective' news script writers in RTE - anyone smellin de coffee?
Maybe those ole IAA management boys (and girls) feel that they are invincible to bad press - wonder why.......
Stick to yer guns - just for once PLEASE stick to yer guns cos this time yez are on a winner!!!!
Interesting connections between d'IAA and others
Brennan FF and yer Gaffer.
Cassin and Cassin and no doubt one or two other dependable 'objective' news script writers in RTE - anyone smellin de coffee?
Maybe those ole IAA management boys (and girls) feel that they are invincible to bad press - wonder why.......
Stick to yer guns - just for once PLEASE stick to yer guns cos this time yez are on a winner!!!!
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The current mismanagement is damaging what should be a proud small ATC provider, the staff are your best asset, use them wisely and treat them well. I hesitate to say listen to the managers on the job as I do believe they are among the most blinkered and anti-staff in the building, if mismanagement dont offer some decent proposals at this meeting next tuesday then they will have a united staff to confront, they may offer some half hearted proposals but they must realise that this will be subjected to a vote and we will not accept a return to the old ad-hoc ways of doing things-and a decent package in response to ALL our demands is required.
Oh by the way if I have heard correctly on the grapevine-staffing in Dublin is perilously tight this weekend-watch this space.
Oh by the way if I have heard correctly on the grapevine-staffing in Dublin is perilously tight this weekend-watch this space.
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I can see this whole thing spilling over into other 'talks'. With all the libellous press releases from corporate IAA, I would now be inclined to reject any deal put forward that incorporated significant change.
1, So I would say goodbye to NOTA, the UK can have it back.
2, SPO, dream on.
3, we will keep the shannon approach ATCOs in Dublin as we need them for Dublin ratings, but Shannon approach service can be delivered from Ballycasey
4. FAB, me arse.
1, So I would say goodbye to NOTA, the UK can have it back.
2, SPO, dream on.
3, we will keep the shannon approach ATCOs in Dublin as we need them for Dublin ratings, but Shannon approach service can be delivered from Ballycasey
4. FAB, me arse.
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Cork and DUB closing again
What do they expect when we are obviously incredibly short of staff.
RTE latest report:http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0215/air.html
One qoute:
At Shannon Airport last night, controllers stopped providing cover for flights between 6pm and 9pm.
Where is this LIE coming from? Really. Shannon tower and indeed Shannon center low level was kept open by the skin of its teeth last night BUT OPEN IT WAS. Whats this crap about providing cover? I dont cover anyone or anything except my own arse. I do provide an air traffic control service though.
How would one put RTE straight on such a basic mistake, and what would be the best way to educate RTE on the meaning of , and differance between " open" and "closed"
Yours as ever
OCK1F
RTE latest report:http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0215/air.html
One qoute:
At Shannon Airport last night, controllers stopped providing cover for flights between 6pm and 9pm.
Where is this LIE coming from? Really. Shannon tower and indeed Shannon center low level was kept open by the skin of its teeth last night BUT OPEN IT WAS. Whats this crap about providing cover? I dont cover anyone or anything except my own arse. I do provide an air traffic control service though.
How would one put RTE straight on such a basic mistake, and what would be the best way to educate RTE on the meaning of , and differance between " open" and "closed"
Yours as ever
OCK1F
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Listen to this-its great!
RTE Morning Ireland this morning the 15th Feb an interview with Liam Kavanagh Dir of HR.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0215/mor...37617,null,209
At least one production team in RTE have their ear to the ground!
A very interesting interview where LK publicly states that "admittedly overtime is voluntary" - at last they have actually admitted that. It must have nearly killed him to say it tho'!
Fair play to the RTE guy for asking the questions like:
"one controller is sick and all this happens,surely this is no way to run an aviation authority" Exactly what we have been saying.
"the IAA have gone to sleep for the past 5 years" Seems that way but its probably unfair to sleepers as sleeping is passive ,while the decisions that led to this debacle were not only actively taken, but the people who took them were probably conscious at the time
"What are you going to do about it" Yeah what are you going to do about it. Guess we will find out on the 19th when they have now publicly said that they will engage with us. I really look forward to that because they haven't engaged yet.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0215/mor...37617,null,209
At least one production team in RTE have their ear to the ground!
A very interesting interview where LK publicly states that "admittedly overtime is voluntary" - at last they have actually admitted that. It must have nearly killed him to say it tho'!
Fair play to the RTE guy for asking the questions like:
"one controller is sick and all this happens,surely this is no way to run an aviation authority" Exactly what we have been saying.
"the IAA have gone to sleep for the past 5 years" Seems that way but its probably unfair to sleepers as sleeping is passive ,while the decisions that led to this debacle were not only actively taken, but the people who took them were probably conscious at the time
"What are you going to do about it" Yeah what are you going to do about it. Guess we will find out on the 19th when they have now publicly said that they will engage with us. I really look forward to that because they haven't engaged yet.
Yours as ever
OCK1F