ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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Dublin Closure
The IAA said in a statement it "regrets the inconvenience to the travelling public and to airlines".
The air traffic controllers are seeking enhanced overtime and changes to their roster.
http://home.eircom.net/content/irela...view=Eircomnet
Can IMPACT please start speaking up for us?
The air traffic controllers are seeking enhanced overtime and changes to their roster.
http://home.eircom.net/content/irela...view=Eircomnet
Can IMPACT please start speaking up for us?
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Can I first of all say that I am totally behind my collegues, lets all hope that things are worked out to the satisfaction of the ATC branch this Tuesday. More staff, less call ins, more leave available ... happier controllers. I, for one, will think I'm in a dream if I get the leave I apply for.
Genex69 though, looking at your comments, I can see you are now retired and by the looks of things, very bitter .... don't know why, considering you were probably one of the lucky guys who got out on the early retirement. Can I just remind you that this is a serious issue for us all and your diatribe about individuals is taking away from it. You obviously have issues with some of these people... find somewhere else to air your blinkered views. In my view, they are taking away from the debate and I hope no one looking at this forum from the ' outside' thinks that we all have the same views as you. I'd like to think that even though this is an anonymous forum, that the majority of things being said here would be said ( and have been said ) in public.
Genex69 though, looking at your comments, I can see you are now retired and by the looks of things, very bitter .... don't know why, considering you were probably one of the lucky guys who got out on the early retirement. Can I just remind you that this is a serious issue for us all and your diatribe about individuals is taking away from it. You obviously have issues with some of these people... find somewhere else to air your blinkered views. In my view, they are taking away from the debate and I hope no one looking at this forum from the ' outside' thinks that we all have the same views as you. I'd like to think that even though this is an anonymous forum, that the majority of things being said here would be said ( and have been said ) in public.
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Unfortunately it is a small group of individuals who are the problem.
- It is these individuals who have decided that their style of managment is dictatorial and confrontational.
- It is these individuals who have orchcestrated the current situation by gross mismanagment
- It is these individuals who continue to deny the obvious.
- It is these individuals that consistently publish libellous untruths.
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Quality management
Lets get this straight.... 2000 days overtime paid at double time= 4000 days salary. That would pay the wages of 11 full time controllers and no one in management seems to think there's a problem with that.
in 2001 Bill Prafiska (the Aviation Regulator at the time) wanted the Iaa to increase terminal charges to about €3.20 (currently€2.25) and charge for every mile flown not just the last 20 as is current practice. The IAA refused claiming that it would hurt small local airlines such as RYR REA and EIN.
Since then RYR and EIN have been posting good profits and REA recoup part of thier costs from the EU.
In short, the current business strategy of the IAA is to refuse to increase charges to profitable service users when sanctioned by the regulator and pay the salaries of 11 non existent controllers.
Could you imagine the carnage if IAA controllers were as incompetent as IAA managers!!!!!
in 2001 Bill Prafiska (the Aviation Regulator at the time) wanted the Iaa to increase terminal charges to about €3.20 (currently€2.25) and charge for every mile flown not just the last 20 as is current practice. The IAA refused claiming that it would hurt small local airlines such as RYR REA and EIN.
Since then RYR and EIN have been posting good profits and REA recoup part of thier costs from the EU.
In short, the current business strategy of the IAA is to refuse to increase charges to profitable service users when sanctioned by the regulator and pay the salaries of 11 non existent controllers.
Could you imagine the carnage if IAA controllers were as incompetent as IAA managers!!!!!
Last edited by norby; 16th Feb 2008 at 16:15.
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and if the CX ever bothered to show his face in the centre
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shamrock 375
i know that it would be disastrous to bring this debate into the gutter, but with reference to the comms manager , as far as i know she was elevated to that position without interview or competition and without relevant experience. Now she is slandering and telling lies publicly about her former colleagues and calling their professionalism into question. i think that controllers have a right to refute her allegations and to call her own professionalism into question. i don't buy that crap about her only doing her job and doing what she is told. i have heard that said too many times about managers in the iaa ','ah yes they really are siding with you guys but they have to tow the management line''. Boll
s . they just don't have the balls to stand up for their staff. they don't have the balls to stand up for what is right.,
s . they just don't have the balls to stand up for their staff. they don't have the balls to stand up for what is right.,
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I wonder if management are working under the illusion that if all this gets sorted, that things will just return to normal. It would be wise for them to take on board that the feeling within our ACCs is so negative, that even if a voluntary OT scheme is agreed on, there may not be the numbers to make it work. I won't be signing up. This is one time when ATCOs would happily cut off their nose to spite their face.
Wonder if there's a new Staff Attitude Survey in the pipeline
Wonder if there's a new Staff Attitude Survey in the pipeline
Last edited by goodworker; 29th Feb 2008 at 12:29.
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Lets get this straight.... 2000 days overtime paid at double time= 4000 days salary. That would pay the wages of 11 full time controllers and no one in management seems to think there's a problem with that.
You forget the liability for sick pay, training costs, pension, leave, maternity pay, insurance etc etc. Overtime is just as good for the IAA as it is for the ATCOs.
That is why ATCOs dont want an end to overtime - they want the system adjusted and the pay increased but they still want to be able to do overtime.
Thus it seems that if the IAA was to put in place a solid plan that would bring an end to overtime permanently, there would be quite a few disapointed ATCO's.
Customers must press the IAA to end any requirement for overtime. Otherwise we will be back in the same situation in 2 years time when more money is wanted for doing overtime.
Very few well paid jobs I know of where you are goig to get the leave you want when you want unless you are at the top of a points system or whatever method they use.
Regards,
DFC
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Thanks shamrock375 for reminding me and you're right I should take my diatribe elsewhere and maybe try to be less bitter. Shucks it just slipped out without me even noticing.....
Glad you're behind yer colleagues too - fair play!
I assure you I have no agenda with any particular individuals in the IAA.
As for the history... hopefully it will not be repeated.
Lest I be misunderstood - maybe strange sense of humour....
I wish my former colleagues the very best with this ordeal and perhaps we will see a speedy resolution to the satisfaction of the ATCOs.
Now where did I leave my putter..........
BTW do you really like aeroplanes and computers?
Glad you're behind yer colleagues too - fair play!
I assure you I have no agenda with any particular individuals in the IAA.
As for the history... hopefully it will not be repeated.
Lest I be misunderstood - maybe strange sense of humour....
I wish my former colleagues the very best with this ordeal and perhaps we will see a speedy resolution to the satisfaction of the ATCOs.
Now where did I leave my putter..........
BTW do you really like aeroplanes and computers?
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YAWN DFC
Just not listening are you!
"Customers must press the IAA to end any requirement for overtime."
Is there any other way to end the requirement for overtime other than by having adequate staffing and contingency staff?
Jeez I don think anyone on this board has suggested that so far.
Don't bother replying we're not interested
Just not listening are you!
"Customers must press the IAA to end any requirement for overtime."
Is there any other way to end the requirement for overtime other than by having adequate staffing and contingency staff?
Jeez I don think anyone on this board has suggested that so far.
Don't bother replying we're not interested
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HELLO DFC
"Overtime is just as good for the IAA as it is for the ATCOs..That is why ATCOs dont want an end to overtime - they want the system adjusted and the pay increased but they still want to be able to do overtime."
You base your argument on the premise that ATCOs have stopped doing overtime in order to secure increased payments.
Says who? the media? the corporate communications manager? Al Jazera?
Are you the Director For Calamities, otherwise known as Director Human Resources, in disguise? now be honest.
Macker, have ya seen shergar too?
"Overtime is just as good for the IAA as it is for the ATCOs..That is why ATCOs dont want an end to overtime - they want the system adjusted and the pay increased but they still want to be able to do overtime."
You base your argument on the premise that ATCOs have stopped doing overtime in order to secure increased payments.
Says who? the media? the corporate communications manager? Al Jazera?
Are you the Director For Calamities, otherwise known as Director Human Resources, in disguise? now be honest.
Macker, have ya seen shergar too?
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Oh Jesus, he's back!
That is why ATCOs dont want an end to overtime - they want the system adjusted and the pay increased but they still want to be able to do overtime
Where are your facts to back up such a(nother) ridiculous statement?
Very few well paid jobs I know of where you are goig to get the leave you want when you want unless you are at the top of a points system or whatever method they use.
How do you propose to solve that one?
in the main, his( DFC's ) posts offer his ( often uninformed ) opinion of lots of topics, but solutions to few or none of them
If you still cannot comprehend whats actually going on, then maybe you should give up. It would appear that you're either not the brightest, or just a pain in the ass - my money is on both.
The IAA have their chance to do something at the LRC next week. If they really start looking for direct entries, you should apply, you'll have so many people here to give you a character reference!
Why dont you come up with some solutions, and not try to stir the ****
see you next tuesday
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Well anyway .......
I think its more than fair to say that goodworkers point is a reality. It was always the case that only a certain percentage of controllers (a minority percentage) were open to working on their days off. It is evidently clear that after they have pissed off and alienated all their controlling staff that anyone who was sitting on the fence and waiting for the new proposals has already made up their mind that 1) my days off are really precious 2) the last thing they feel like doing is doing a favour for the managemnet types who slandered them only a few weeks before.
As already said the IAA would do well to heed this sentiment when they are formulating their proposals for tuesday. They will really have to come up with some attractive and interesting ideas to get us back on side. I hope they do - to be honest.
Of course the idea that IAA staff to such an extent so that overtime or call-ins are NEVER needed is just poppycock. Unless you quantify the actual staff needed and then double it (maybe more!) then there will always be a requirement to have overtime and call-ins.
The issue as WE ALL KNOW is that up to now the number of staff needed is no where near the amount of staff available. Hence the need for excessive amounts of overtime. Hence also the lack of leave and other basic entitlements. Hence also the feeling of getting hammered whenever you sit in. This is not going to change and will even get ALOT worse before 2009/2010 when the next SCP class come on stream. So the solution is simple- put in place a new scheme thats acceptable to staff-maybe even two schemes. In the meantime a concerted recruitment drive is started icluding both direct entries and SCP classes.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
I think its more than fair to say that goodworkers point is a reality. It was always the case that only a certain percentage of controllers (a minority percentage) were open to working on their days off. It is evidently clear that after they have pissed off and alienated all their controlling staff that anyone who was sitting on the fence and waiting for the new proposals has already made up their mind that 1) my days off are really precious 2) the last thing they feel like doing is doing a favour for the managemnet types who slandered them only a few weeks before.
As already said the IAA would do well to heed this sentiment when they are formulating their proposals for tuesday. They will really have to come up with some attractive and interesting ideas to get us back on side. I hope they do - to be honest.
Of course the idea that IAA staff to such an extent so that overtime or call-ins are NEVER needed is just poppycock. Unless you quantify the actual staff needed and then double it (maybe more!) then there will always be a requirement to have overtime and call-ins.
The issue as WE ALL KNOW is that up to now the number of staff needed is no where near the amount of staff available. Hence the need for excessive amounts of overtime. Hence also the lack of leave and other basic entitlements. Hence also the feeling of getting hammered whenever you sit in. This is not going to change and will even get ALOT worse before 2009/2010 when the next SCP class come on stream. So the solution is simple- put in place a new scheme thats acceptable to staff-maybe even two schemes. In the meantime a concerted recruitment drive is started icluding both direct entries and SCP classes.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 16th Feb 2008 at 19:06.
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DFC
Quote:
in the main, his( DFC's ) posts offer his ( often uninformed ) opinion of lots of topics, but solutions to few or none of them.
1800+ posts on a variety of topics from ASBO's to Atc and all with a common thread. Listen to me! I know more than you youre wrong.
How does he get the time to fall asleep in the back of his chipmunk?
A man of his superior mental abilities should be Sec. General of the UN or on countdown or something like that.
Go away and read the thread completely DFC and stop publicly displaying your ignorance of the subject at hand.
We're not in the highlands and regions of the UK
We're not Luton approach
We're not under an ASBO
We're not confused about the quadrantal rule or VFR flight levels
When you actually understand Irish ATC better than Irish Controllers then you can talk down to us, until then, BEGONE
in the main, his( DFC's ) posts offer his ( often uninformed ) opinion of lots of topics, but solutions to few or none of them.
1800+ posts on a variety of topics from ASBO's to Atc and all with a common thread. Listen to me! I know more than you youre wrong.
How does he get the time to fall asleep in the back of his chipmunk?
A man of his superior mental abilities should be Sec. General of the UN or on countdown or something like that.
Go away and read the thread completely DFC and stop publicly displaying your ignorance of the subject at hand.
We're not in the highlands and regions of the UK
We're not Luton approach
We're not under an ASBO
We're not confused about the quadrantal rule or VFR flight levels
When you actually understand Irish ATC better than Irish Controllers then you can talk down to us, until then, BEGONE
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Actually i had a quick think about what i just said above-and i have edited it.
As for the unmentionable one dont even bother reply-for each reply he/she gets it just keeps them going. This unmentionable one has so publicly shown themselves to be ignorant , beligerent and one prawn short of a prawn sandwich and has nothing what so ever to contribute apart from making a complete ass out of themselves.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
As for the unmentionable one dont even bother reply-for each reply he/she gets it just keeps them going. This unmentionable one has so publicly shown themselves to be ignorant , beligerent and one prawn short of a prawn sandwich and has nothing what so ever to contribute apart from making a complete ass out of themselves.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 16th Feb 2008 at 19:07.
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Macker -thanks for saying my "scheme" looks about right.
However having consulted with some other forumers and having a quick think about it myself i have removed my "scheme" This is a very public forum, and that was my major concern. To anyone who didnt see it I apologise but im sure it will be talked about at work as it has been floated already i think.
AS for the complete ass just ignore him/her as we shouldnt even waste our time replying any more.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
However having consulted with some other forumers and having a quick think about it myself i have removed my "scheme" This is a very public forum, and that was my major concern. To anyone who didnt see it I apologise but im sure it will be talked about at work as it has been floated already i think.
AS for the complete ass just ignore him/her as we shouldnt even waste our time replying any more.
Yours as ever
OCK1F
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OCK1F,
While your suggestions have merit, I'm glad to see you have had the good sense to edit them.
When the reps go in on tue, it should be up to mgmt to speak and propose a solution to the current "situation". Whether they come up with a revised overtime system is irrelevant in the first instance as far as I'm concerned.
As I've said here before, their response should be:
1. Publicly admit the staff shortage!
2. Present a written (no waffling spin) undertaken on how they have a long term plan to rectify the shortage and ensure it never happens again that staff can't get what they are entitled to.
3. They may then present their short term solutions, and if this includes a new overtime system, then providing parts 1+2 are there, the should the reps even listen!
Priority is ADMISSION and LONG TERM COMMITTMENT!
While your suggestions have merit, I'm glad to see you have had the good sense to edit them.
When the reps go in on tue, it should be up to mgmt to speak and propose a solution to the current "situation". Whether they come up with a revised overtime system is irrelevant in the first instance as far as I'm concerned.
As I've said here before, their response should be:
1. Publicly admit the staff shortage!
2. Present a written (no waffling spin) undertaken on how they have a long term plan to rectify the shortage and ensure it never happens again that staff can't get what they are entitled to.
3. They may then present their short term solutions, and if this includes a new overtime system, then providing parts 1+2 are there, the should the reps even listen!
Priority is ADMISSION and LONG TERM COMMITTMENT!
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"As I've said here before, their response should be:
1. Publicly admit the staff shortage!
2. Present a written (no waffling spin) undertaken on how they have a long term plan to rectify the shortage and ensure it never happens again that staff can't get what they are entitled to.
3. They may then present their short term solutions, and if this includes a new overtime system, then providing parts 1+2 are there, the should the reps even listen!"
An apology for all the crap that's being written on the IAA website might be nice aswell
1. Publicly admit the staff shortage!
2. Present a written (no waffling spin) undertaken on how they have a long term plan to rectify the shortage and ensure it never happens again that staff can't get what they are entitled to.
3. They may then present their short term solutions, and if this includes a new overtime system, then providing parts 1+2 are there, the should the reps even listen!"
An apology for all the crap that's being written on the IAA website might be nice aswell