Monarch - 3

[davidjohnson6]

After the near bankruptcy of a few months ago, I imagine the owners (Greybull) of Monarch and any lenders will want to see Monarch operating profitably (that's audited accounts profits, not just EBITDA) and with strong positive cashflow before any contractual commitment is made to taking on new long haul aircraft. I presume the CAA will want a high level of certainty that the finance stack up as well.

[canberra97]

RATCHETRING

Looking back at your post 3772.

With all due respect it was yourself who actually stated this 'rumour' regarding the return of long haul to Monarch with no source or link and now your saying,

'I don't think anyone in Monarch actually believes a word of this nonsense regarding long haul'.

Of course they don't believe it because it's not true, unless you can validate your earlier claim I will just look at it as a 'rumour' made up by yourself as I have personally asked you for a credible link or source neither of which you have supplied.

As your fairly new here I suggest your more factual next time you state information you can't back up otherwise what's the point in posting rumours.

[pabloc]

As spotty m stated,it was an internal weekly update,no dates,no mention of type,just where the owners/bosses would like to see us in the future so no links or press releases....no one at monarch has got the budgie smugglers out of the loft or hit the gym for our beach bods yet:ok:

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Thank you Pabloc for defending "ratchetring".
It is not that they are going back into Longhaul, it is a fact that they are discussing the possibility of doing so.
As for canberra97 :ugh:

[TartinTon]

I may have missed something here but Monarch have never operated longhaul.
Before everyone jumps down my throat, let me qualify that. They have supplied aircraft to tour operators who wanted to serve longhaul markets and even their useless old inhouse tour operator Cosmos operated some longhaul services but Monarch themselves have never sold longhaul services.
Is Swaffield proposing to get back into bed with tour operators or are they belatedly going to do what they should have done 10 years ago and have a tour operator who is there supporting the airline instead of leaching off the airline a la Cosmos/Avro? Brown/Rawlinson and Mantegazza have a hell of a lot to answer for

[monarch767]

Just to add -

A few years ago flights to Orlando and Goa could be booked through the Monarch website as well as 3rd party tour ops. These were consolidation flights operated and organised by MON that had 4 plus different tour ops.

Cosmos didnt operate the flights using MON a/c. Cosmos blocked booked an allocation on the MON flights.

In the past there was whole allocation flights eg the Thomas Cook hols flights to MLE or Captains Choice RTW but even these were completely organised by MON. The only thing they didnt do was sell the seats.

Im sure IF they were to return to LH they would through Monarch Holidays with 3rd party tour ops being able to block book should they choose as like now with the SH ( saga etc ) Using the ZB prefix.

[canberra97]

Pabloc

And where exactly has it been stated in these recent threads that Monarch had a recent weekly internal update with no dates, no mention of aircraft (although RATCHETRING actually stated up to 7 Long haul aircraft), no mention of type, just where the owners/bosses would like to see Monarch in the future so no links or press releases!

So where are you getting that information from?

Mr A Spotty M

'It is not that they are getting back into long haul, it is a fact that they are considering the possibility of doing so'.

Where are the facts and what gives you privy to any internal facts, if you know anymore than RATCHETRING please feel free to expand on those 'facts' otherwise it's just plane spotter gossip as far as I am concerned.

Not sure what you mean by 'as for Canberra97' and I made a point of omitting the 'hitting your head against a brick wall' because that has to be one of the most immature things to add and those who don't agree with others tend to use it.

Remember this, You are nothing special your just like everyone else on here just a mere member of an aviation forum.

[johnnychips]

PPRuNe = Professional Pilots Rumour Network.

[canberra97]

Exactly as I'm fully aware but rumours can sometimes substantiated, obviously not in this case.

[pabloc]

3797 canberra (spotty m) internal communication (weekly)to all staff at monarch,it gives no date or type yes it does say that they would LIKE to see 6/7aircraft and that was all.....no one is holding their breath its like i said its where the company would LIKE to see us go,if it happens great if not ce la vie,as long as we have a job,with shiney new 737 MAX's ,thats all that most of us are concerned with at the moment....:)

[monarch767]

Let them start to reap the benefits of the MAX then in a few years when their in a stronger position Monarch Holidays could look at going back into holiday LH.

In the meantime there is no harm in them looking into it and putting a case together for its return.

I wish them all the best.

[Brigantee]

@canberra 97 , What ratchet ring stated was fact .....A MON staff member showed me the E mail in question .

[canberra97]

Well if it was in 'internal communication' it should have stayed there, it's against most company policies for 'internal communications' to be announced to the public unless it was done so by the appropriate departments, otherwise a its a disciplinary or at worst a sackable offence.

[janeyTA]

I've been following this latest 'revelation' with interest, and have been thinking exactly the same thing.

It's bad enough telling someone outside the company, but for that person to them go and join a forum especially to tell others.................

If a friend of mine did that they wouldn't be a friend any more!

[davidjohnson6]

In an era when social media is all pervasive it is naive to expect internal emails won't eventually leak onto publicly viewable parts of the Internet. As a social species, humans love to talk to each other about things- we just can't resist blabbing.

Very unfortunate certainly, but naive.

[Say again s l o w l y]

The idea that any "internal communication" will remain as such in the modern era is laughable and everyone (including those writing them) knows that.

Many companies use "internal memos" as a way of getting news out there without officially releasing it, as it always appears to be a more trusted source than were it to be released directly.

No idea if that was the case here, but the thing I often look for is who would news like that be aimed at? What is the real reason for making statements like that?

There's always a game going on somewhere and statements like this are just part of it.

Will Monarch get 787's? No idea, but it's a risky strategy committing to aircraft that are that expensive, especially when they're already in the process of bringing one new type in.

[Brigantee]

Cannbera97 ,What planet are you on ? Do you honestly think MON would have released that statement to staff expecting no one to mention the fact they may be returning to long haul to anyone outside the company ??
If a return was a senstive issue the company would have kept very quiet it until something was in concrete .



Get real ffs.

[canberra97]

Perhaps it should have been kept quiet as I am certain the internal memo/email was as it states an internal memo/email, a company such as Monarch would only want that sort of information in the domain of the public if they the company made an official press release.

I will give you an example

I work for one of the major cruise lines and a few years ago a surprise announcement was to be made to the public concerning the deployment of a particular vessel to the UK cruise market, I at that time I was on a similar site to this but for the cruise industry and one of my team had posted the information online. It didn't take long to find the culprit as he was openly discussing it online and with others, regardless of the fact there was going to be forthcoming press release the person involved was instantly reprimanded and subsequently demoted due to gross misconduct.

That's why I find this whole saga involving members of staff discussing particular internal memos or emails of there company to the public as posting them on PPRUNE. This may be a rumour site but it doesn't give a green light to those wanting to discuss what should be pvt internal emails.

[Brigantee]

As said if it was a sensitive issue the company would not have disclosed that news to hundreds of staff hoping no one would mention what is on the face of it good posotive news to anyone outside the company

They knew full well the story would leak out and that was im sure intended .

[Say again s l o w l y]

Also never forget that an internal only memo is deniable in the future, whereas were you to make a press statement that something is to happen that then doesn't is something you'll be challenged on.

An internal e-mail sent to a small and trusted group of employees getting leaked is a problem.
An internal e-mail sent to all staff that then gets leaked is a very different thing.

[inOban]

It will also depend on whether the company is listed, and therefore subject to stock exchange rules on price-sensitive information.

[ratchetring]

AFAIK It was not a confidential letter or anything of that nature it was mentioned on a monthy news letter all staff receive, Therfore hardly "Top Secret " intel !

[Crosswind Limits]

It was an internal email.

[davidjohnson6]

If info goes into a monthly newsletter for all staff at a company, then management should either expect it to leak to the wider world, or someone in management is deeply naive.

The company I work for has monthly 'ask the CEO' town hall meetings. Because the CEO knows things will leak, he imparts very little information at those meetings; the result is that none of the rank-and-file staff go to those meetings because they know the CEO doesn't want things being leaked so doesn't say anything remotely sensitive

[renort]

Everything is one step away from public domain these days. Cant believe its taken up at least two pages of nonsensical speculation.

Fact is longhaul aircraft for Monarch are nothing but a dream.
Lets see how long it is before another handout is needed.

[Crosswind Limits]

Yawn! There's so much negativity and cynicism around Monarch it's tiresome. I often wonder what motivates such people!!?? :confused:

In this modern day of social media, it doesn't matter whether you are right as long as you are first to state an opinion or throw out an off the cuff viewpoint! Keep repeating it and maybe it will become an "alternative fact"!! :rolleyes: Let's be frank, unless you are privy to board meetings and company accounts, no one really knows what's happening.

Contrary to what some think, Greybull appear to still think Monarch has a viable future. What that future exactly entails, only time will tell.

I'm sure our competitors would rather we disappeared, but we are still here and plan to be for a while yet! ;)

[matderrmount]

We just added a few more flights in Europe, so this summer we will be pretty busy.

[AP1995]

Just a quick one, does anybody know how many aircraft are based at each base for 2017? I know LBA is x2 A320, just wondering what the rest is.. Thanks

[BHX5DME]

BHX needs 10 Monarch aircraft in the afternoon but only 9 for the morning departures.
So hopefully more morning routes to come ?
Is BHX their biggest bases ?
How many at MAN & LGW ?

[MKY661]

I think it's 9 at MAN this year, probably 2x A320 & 7x A321.

[Sholto Douglas]

Yes, Manchester is planned as 9 based for Summer 2017.

[davidjohnson6]

Are Monarch dropping their Luton-Ovda route at the end of April ? It's not on sale for winter 2017/2018, the new Eilat airport seems a fair way from being finished, and Monarch have put other winter 2017/2018 routes on sale already. Furthermore, I understand that loads on Luton-Ovda have not been exactly brilliant outside the Xmas period peak

[Vokes55]

Are you surprised? Ovda is just a strip of tarmac in the middle of the desert a long way from anywhere with very few transport links. It takes over an hour to get to Eilat, which, fantastic as it is from my own experience, is in itself a fairly unknown and insignificant destination from the UK.

[mwm991]

I was in Glasgow all day yesterday and seen tonnes of adverts for Monarchs £30 fares on the side of buses which I thought was quite interesting.

[inOban]

For all the punters who are prepared to get themselves to MAN!

[monarch767]

LGW 10 A/C

8 x A321, 1 x A320 + 1A320 Smartlynx

LGW has most weekly flights ( maybe BHX now with new routes )
BHX has most destinations served

[DSA-DUB]

I was in Glasgow all day yesterday and seen tonnes of adverts for Monarchs £30 fares on the side of buses which I thought was quite interesting.

Same here in Doncaster.

[ATNotts]

Possibly a national deal with Stagecoach who I feel sure operate the buses in Glasgow.

[scr1]

Are Monarch dropping their Luton-Ovda route at the end of April ? It's not on sale for winter 2017/2018, the new Eilat airport seems a fair way from being finished, and Monarch have put other winter 2017/2018 routes on sale already. Furthermore, I understand that loads on Luton-Ovda have not been exactly brilliant outside the Xmas period peak

I hope not we are using this route again in a couple of weeks. Also it was the middle of march last year before this winter flights were put on sale

[ratchetring]

Monarch to offer upgrades to 'nice' passengers | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/monarch-airlines-upgrade-nice-passengers-budget-airline-pret-a-manger-a7629101.html)

If there were any doubts they have lost the plot over recent times this should remove those doubts once and for all....

[fmgc]

Lots of column inches though....

Seems to me to be a PR success.

BTW. Doubt you're going to get an upgrade with an attitude like that!

[ATNotts]

Monarch to offer upgrades to 'nice' passengers | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/monarch-airlines-upgrade-nice-passengers-budget-airline-pret-a-manger-a7629101.html)

If there were any doubts they have lost the plot over recent times this should remove those doubts once and for all....

Not at all, have you never heard of marketing? The numbers involved are tiny, the cost therefore minuscule - but the impact disproportionately large in terms of exposure.

The only downside I see is the call centre being swamped with callers phoning for no reason other than to try and snap up these upgrades, which are as rare as hen's teeth. The "genuine" callers, who will in the era of online bookings, only be phoning to resolve problems, and are therefore the ones they really want to reach with the scheme, may become cheesed off because they can't get through.

[ratchetring]

Monarch should not upgrade 'nice' passengers but look after travellers with delayed flights instead | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/monarch-airline-upgrade-nice-passengers-downgrade-rude-delayed-flights-economy-business-class-plus-a7633781.html)

[scr1]

Are Monarch dropping their Luton-Ovda route at the end of April ? It's not on sale for winter 2017/2018, the new Eilat airport seems a fair way from being finished, and Monarch have put other winter 2017/2018 routes on sale already. Furthermore, I understand that loads on Luton-Ovda have not been exactly brilliant outside the Xmas period peak
I hope not we are using this route again in a couple of weeks. Also it was the middle of march last year before this winter flights were put on sale

The flights to Ovda are back on sale for next winter

[james170969]

I was in Glasgow all day yesterday and seen tonnes of adverts for Monarchs £30 fares on the side of buses which I thought was quite interesting.
It's the same on the Stagecoach buses in Ayrshire. Very strange. I wonder if Monarch are planning flights from Scotland.

[inOban]

I've seen them on buses in Edinburgh. What a waste of an advertising budget.

[james170969]

I've seen them on buses in Edinburgh. What a waste of an advertising budget.
That's exactly what I thought. I could see the point of it if they flew to airports in Scotland.

[ExpectmorePayless]

I expect the rather large Project Management and PR & External Communication departments have been strategizing over this for months. If you're going to waste money, you might as well go for broke. :ugh:

[Say again s l o w l y]

I expect the rather large Project Management a. nd PR & External Communication departments have been strategizing over this for months. If you're going to waste money, you might as well go for broke. :ugh:

Don't make me laugh.

If the Project Office was allowed to run projects properly rather than simply being brought in to clear up the mess made by those who have no ability to think 5 mins into the future or understand that in a complex organisation, if you change one thing, you often need to check what else might get pulled out of whack, then you might actually see things get done properly and without the ridiculous overspend that was inevitable when anything was tried out.

I'm afraid you've hit a nerve here and as someone who spent a lot of time trying to make things work properly there, all I can say is that you haven't got a damned clue what you are talking about if you make flip comments like that.

[Council Van]

Advertising in Scotland.

You might be quite surprised how many Scottish customers my outfit carries out of Manchester.

[LBIA]

It's amazing how many gordies are travelling on Monarch's flights out of LBA.
I wonder if there are Scots also traveling down to LBA instead of using NCL and EDI?

[The Hypnoboon]

Monarch have been in doing a lot of training at PIK, I know there has been discussions in the past regarding routes from Prestwick. With the reduction in APD on the way in Scotland, maybe Monarch are building up awareness for the launch of some routes in Scotland.

[ATNotts]

I know there has been discussions in the past regarding routes from Prestwick.

Not likely without some fairly hefty bungs from Prestwick, or the Scottish government I would have thought.

[inOban]

PIK is an excellent location for training ( as it is for maintenance). Nice long fog free runway, very few scheduled flights, reasonably quiet airspace. You can practice takeoffs and landings all day. But as a location for scheduled ops? Look at a population map. Unless other airports became so busy that slots became a problem, and I don't see that in the foreseeable future.

[SWBKCB]

how many Scott's


how many jordies

How many what?

[canberra97]

SWBKCB

Unbelievable isn't it and I bet they haven't got a clue what you mean!

I read both and thought what the :mad:

As to APD in Scotland no decision if any has been made as to any reductions and more than likely nothing will change in that area for the forseable future plus Prestwick has been well used by hundreds of airlines over the decades for crew training but it doesn't mean that they intend to operate scheduled flights out of the airport, pure fantasy on behalf of the poster plus the fact he states that previous discussions have been made regarding Monarch flying from Prestwick airport.

Some posters dreams and the realities don't mix sometimes.

[inOban]

I'm as much a stickler for grammar and spelling as anyone, but we've all been caught out by the guesses of our tablets and phones. The one that amuses me is when LTNman always refers to the duel carriageway. I keep imagining that queuing drivers will resort to armed combat.

[canberra97]

In this case I have a feeling that the grammar or spelling mistakes even were intended that way and probably how the posters assumed they were spelt rather than the guesses of the tablet or phone, due care and attention with what you type will eliminate such issues.

[LBIA]

SWBKCB I've edited the offending post, that will teach me not to post after having a few beers.

[canberra97]

LBIA

Not sure if your still having a 'few beers' but your so called editing still hasn't corrected the obvious mistakes.

I suggest you start smoking weed instead of having a few beers, it does it for me :-)

[GrahamK]

The leased 738 from Pegasus(??) has been painted. Doesn't look too bad in ZB colours.

[toledoashley]

Where is it at the moment? Birmingham?

[GrahamK]

It's going to be based at BHX, not sure of it's current location. Just seen a pic passed from a friend

[toledoashley]

Doing a bit of digging, looks like it is at EMA - arrived last week along with a sister... TC-ABP

[OltonPete]

Jethro has it as TC-AAY which appeared to do an air-test out of Istanbul SAW yesterday.

The Monarch schedule is now showing the 738 in certain booking engines but the seat-map is 174 which is that of the A320. Is this deliberate for late aircraft changes or just not updated?

Monday: Faro am & Dalman pm
Tuesday: Tenerife am & Palma pm
Wednesday: Mahon am & Dalman pm
Thursday: Rome am & Alicante pm
Friday: Lisbon am & Madrid pm
Saturday: Tenerife am & Malaga pm
Sunday: Faro am & Lisbon pm

[toledoashley]

Would this be the image by any chance?

[Beanjet]

With the drama of last year, Have monarch found a buyer or sourced enough funding to take them beyond summer 17?

[750XL]

I'd be surprised if Monarch are still here in two years to be honest :sad:

[22/04]

Not sure a buyer is so urgent with the sale/lease deal done with Boeing - and Greybull have the money if they want to put it into Monarch.

Have lost track of delivery dates but what will the fleet look like this time next year with 737s vs Airbus?

[davidjohnson6]

and Greybull have he money if they want to put it into Monarch

At some point, Greybull may take a similiar view to the Mantegazza family - namely that continually pumping money into an airline with little sign of a good return on the investment is not always worthwhile

[tubby linton]

The Mantegazza family had over forty years of taking money out of the group and transforming themselves from simple ferrymen on a Swiss lake to billionaires.
Looking at beanjets other posts I can only surmise that they hold some sort of affection for Jet2 , and the latter wish that Monarch were gone.
750xl doesn't strike me as a serious financial professional and their prognosis should also be treated with contempt.
How desperate must the Jet2 staff be about their own futures if they wish to spread poisonous rumours such as this?
My own prognosis. Phillip Meeson is Approaching his seventieth birthday and negotiates personally almost all contracts affecting the Dart Group. His effectiveness as a CEO will diminish rapidly as he ages and he has not cultivated an heir to replace him. The Group will hit a brick wall whenever anything happens to him and with his age that day cannot be far away.

[The96er]

Another paranoid Monarch Fanboy/Employee in total denial again I see :rolleyes:

[CCGE29]

Little like the total denial of the following aircraft being anything to do with Monarch...


2x United 744's
1x Atlas Air 744
2x Omni 762's
1x Omni 772
1x Miami Air 738
1x Air Transat 332
1x Air Transat 310


However as soon as the CAA deal was done they all went home...

[tubby linton]

Perhaps you would like to post some substance of what I am denying, because at the moment you are just beimg mendacious The96er.
Looking at the amount of posters coming out of the swamp to attack Monarch I must have touched a raw nerve. It is hard to understand the loyalty to Philip M as he doesn't have it for his workforce, and I used to work for him. That is probably where I got my paranoia from!!

[01475]

I don't see the makings of a big conspiracy - I just see yet another legacy airline that struggled to find its place in the modern world.

The current big difference between Jet2 and Monarch is marketing, but of course Monarch probably can't afford much in the way of marketing and the events of last year weren't helpful.

[tubby linton]

You have obviously missed the television advertising,radio advertising, the posters on busses all over the UK, posters on the tube etc etc...I don't think that you are qualified to make judgements on Monarch's advertising budget.

[01475]

I've been battered by far more Jet2 advertising.

But if there's a qualification in being a consumer that I could take then I'm interested to hear about it.

[ATIS]

This Monarch employee bought a bundle of Dart group shares last year and is enjoying the ride, so thanks for working so hard.

Regarding Monarch, we ain't going anywhere, yet. The company is leaner and the planes are fuller. I'm in no doubt a sale/takeover will be on the cards further down the line. But I don't have a crystal ball.

[ATNotts]

My own prognosis. Phillip Meeson is Approaching his seventieth birthday and negotiates personally almost all contracts affecting the Dart Group. His effectiveness as a CEO will diminish rapidly as he ages and he has not cultivated an heir to replace him. The Group will hit a brick wall whenever anything happens to him and with his age that day cannot be far away.

Rather reminiscent of Morrisons, an excellently run regional business, controlled from to to bottom by Ken Morrison. When he stepped down and (allegedly) profession retail management brought in, they darn near sent an erstwhile successful business into oblivion.

[inOban]

Warren Buffet, George Soros and several others are going strong in their eighties. But I agree that succession planning is the task that entrepreneurs are worst at. The skill set needed to run a mature business is quite different from that needed to create one.

[22/04]

Back to my post- anyone got a delivery schedule for the 738 MAXs and the end of leases for Airbuses - they are all schedule between Q1 '18 and '20.

I am concerned about the rate of expansion of Jet2 - there can't be enough "new market" to sustain what they are doing so they must be banking on taking market from someone.

Monarch were advertising in Daily Telegraph travel supplement last Saturday and not much Jet2 advertising there - perhaps the first thing to do is to protect your key market- keep the "slivers" on board.

[Mr A Tis]

I'm surprised that Monarch don't make more use of their already established Vantage FF scheme, it appears to have fallen down the list of priorities. Almost looks like it could be phased out (?)
It is certainly an opportunity to retain custom, if it were slightly more beneficial and promoted.
If you book a Monarch Holiday- you don't accrue any Vantage miles on your Monarch flight & also I found, that specific seat reservations were more expensive if you are on a Monarch holiday booking rather than a flight only.

[eye2eye5]

Rather reminiscent of Morrisons, an excellently run regional business, controlled from to to bottom by Ken Morrison. When he stepped down and (allegedly) profession retail management brought in, they darn near sent an erstwhile successful business into oblivion.

Spider's web style of management. The spider sits at the centre of the web and controls everything. When the spider dies, the company also tends to go into decline. It's hard for the spider to let go, but succession planning should be foremost in Phillip Meeson's mind if he wishes his company to continue to flourish.

[Mooncrest]

Philip Meeson is the Executive Chairman (whatever that means) these days. Steve Heapy is Chief Executive and Phil Ward is Managing Director. The latter two largely run Jet2 day to day and I expect they will assume full responsibility at some point in the future. PM has his finger on the pulse in the meantime, plus I believe he is the majority shareholder in Dart Group.

[compton3bravo]

I thought this was supposed to be the Monarch thread not Jet2. Could we please get back to discussions about Monarch please.

[ratchetring]

Have to say, Having used both jet 2 and monarch numerous times if jet 2 can make a success of things with its tired shabby old aircraft and somewhat pikey image im sure monarch can

[scr1]

the posters on busses all over the UK

passed a bus today on the A9 heading north at Drumochter with a Monarch ad on the side.

Not quite sure who they are trying to reach up here

[SWBKCB]

His effectiveness as a CEO will diminish rapidly as he ages

its tired shabby old aircraft and somewhat pikey image

Must have the opposition worried when they stoop to lazy, casual ageism and racism? :=

[dude1882]

Anybody know why the ZB935 went Tech Last night in TFS, A320 G-ZBAR on the ground overnight with A321 G-ZBAJ going to rescue this morning?

[chaps1954]

Jet2 aircraft are far from shabby and don`t get the pikey image either

[Mr A Tis]

Half of the last 18 posts have been either about Jet2 or something unrelated to Monarch.
Could you guys please get on the RIGHT thread !

[Crosswind Limits]

As a Monarch employee it's sad to see that a few posters are very anti Monarch and clearly have some agenda at work. It's obvious they don't know what they are talking about but that's the problem with social media, everyone has an opinion and can share it for free anonymously! I bet if they had to put their real names at the end of every post, 99% would shut the hell up!! :rolleyes:

[ATNotts]

Too right they would!

[Beanjet]

My original post was not to incite a monarch bashing or did it mention any other company.

I do working in travel and a big fan of Monarch and "other airlines". As a regular traveller on Monarch my consumer confidence was dashed abit by last year's events. I was merely looking for some substance to reassure myself. Unfortunately a big aircraft order doesn't cut it with me. I will continue to book with and support monarch even if I'm hesitant.

[ATIS]

The CAA are happy with Monarch's progress, that is all you need to know. End of!

[OltonPete]

Just to go off at a different angle here are the Monarch BHX arrivals tonight:-

Madrid
Oporto
Stockholm
Lisbon
Venice
Barcelona
Rome
Gibraltar
Larnaca
Alicante.

Firstly there are ten arrivals already despite only 5 departures this morning and secondly note quite a change of direction with 7 destinations often used as city breaks although some double as sun routes.

I am not saying if this is right or wrong but as a BHX watcher it is an interesting change with Madrid is back despite year-round competition from Iberia and Ryanair (although Norwegian have gone), Oporto which was reintroduced by Ryanair before Monarch announced and of course the out of left-field Stockholm route. Certainly a lively summer at BHX ahead.

I wish them well.

[chinapattern]

I think the move into city break territory is certainly a good move at BHX and while I still think Stockholm might have been a bit of a gamble I think Valencia, Naples and Porto should do well.


It will be interesting to see where MON go next at - out of the current network I think only Verona and Zagreb are the only routes they don't serve from BHX so they could be contenders for new routes.


Valencia was a complete curveball and so perhaps MON might try something a bit different - Milan? Seville? Riga?

[liam4393]

Is the 737-800 to be crewed by Monarch or Pegasus? I imagine it will be Monarch given the impending arrival of their own Boeing a/c?

[Cloud1]

It will be Monarch crew Liam. From what I have seen their crew have been receiving training in readiness for the NG joining.

Re: Valencia, does anyone in the know have any indication as to bookings? Appreciate cannot share confidential info but I am not sure Valencia has received the same level of marketing as other new routes.

[Brigantee]

My original post was not to incite a monarch bashing or did it mention any other company.

I do working in travel and a big fan of Monarch and "other airlines". As a regular traveller on Monarch my consumer confidence was dashed abit by last year's events. I was merely looking for some substance to reassure myself. Unfortunately a big aircraft order doesn't cut it with me. I will continue to book with and support monarch even if I'm hesitant.

Why on earth would you be "hesitant" about booking with a carrier such as monarch??:ugh:

[SWBKCB]

Because of last years shenanigans? Never heard of the phrase "consumer confidence"?

Also, what does this comment mean:

The CAA are happy with Monarch's progress, that is all you need to know. End of!

Can't see a regulator using terms like "happy" - I think it probably means that no action is being discussed at the moment.

[Crosswind Limits]

Some people clearly don't know when to stop! As was said earlier if you can produce evidence that Monarch was in financial difficulty and losing money pre the ATOL debacle and be confident enough to provide your name with it, I and many others would take you seriously. I suspect you won't be able to do that but you'll go on about the ATOL bond and the CAA having just cause blah blah blah as if that means anything by itself! := Keyboard warriors hey!!! :rolleyes:

The fact is that Monarch was in profit and was renegotiating its ATOL contribution........end of! The CAA taking a step like that was a complete overreaction and unnecessary and this is widely accepted now both within the organisation and outside. Internally at the CAA this has been discussed ad nauseam and action taken to make sure this doesn't happen again. To not properly consider that social media would seize on the "shadow airline" and spread it like wildfire was a serious oversight by them. It almost became a self fulfilling prophecy and seriously damaged Monarch's brand.

Anyway that is all behind us now, ATOL bonded flights only ended and rightly so and a further major investment was made by our shareholders. Monarch's brand has proven to be far resilient than many thought and passenger confidence is recovering and load factors are comparable to all other airlines! :ok:

Some people will always wonder about a relatively small airline like Monarch surviving as a separate entity long term and that is a fair comment. None of us know what the future holds and Brexit has complicated the scenario immeasurably.

[SWBKCB]

I think you are missing the point - doesn't matter whether the CAA were right or wrong, the bad publicity that was generated will be enough to damage confidence.

Google "Monarch Airlines" and scroll through the pages - as you say yourself it
seriously damaged Monarch's brand.


I've no connection with the CAA but am familiar with regulators of other industries - they would never say that they "happy" with an organisation, if you push really hard they may confirm that they aren't currently taking any action, and I'd be amazed if the CAA are any different.

[Crosswind Limits]

No I've not missed any point thank you very much, I have just moved on as have most people including the CAA! To seize on my colleagues use of the word "happy" says more about your mindset and driving force than it does about whether the CAA were a barrel of laughs when the matter concluded! :ugh::rolleyes:

[chaps1954]

SWBKCB Give us a break, just because someone says that CAA were happy with whatever
doesn`t mean that that is the exact wording just the writers take of events

[crewmeal]

Agreed. What ever adjective is used happy, satisfied etc I'm sure the CAA monitor all carrier's performance in every category. I can't see the point in anyone knocking Monarch especially now they're back on track and about to embark on their next aircraft phase.

[FQTLSteve]

Am I correct in thinking that the 737NG has a smaller pax capacity than the A321? If so are Monarch downsizing capacity? If so why, or will they increase frequency if possible?

[Cloud1]

I think (and I emphasise think!) the B737 will be about 10 seats less than the A320 assuming they still pursue the extra legroom seating options to mirror the current offering. There are still lots of things being considered including keeping some Airbus for the routes that can sustain 200+ pax.

I think the new fleet will be a good opportunity to cut out any routes that don't offer enough profitability and expand those that do by upping frequency.

It will be very interesting to see what happens once the Max's do arrive. It must be quite exciting for those involved particularly as it will coincide with the airlines 50th anniversary

[inOban]

This may be commercially sensitive, but I am wondering what proportion of their PAX are flight only, what are Monarch holidays, and do they carry PAX booked by other holiday companies? These could be the specialist operators eg golf trips to the Algarve, or from the larger operators wishing to add an additional origin or destination. For example, TCX don't have any base a/c in Edinburgh, but offer holidays to Tenerife and Majorca using Easyjet; and TUI add to the offer using their single based a/c by also using Easyjet to Dubrovnik. In the past they would have also used Jet2, but they are hardly likely to use their main competitor!

[Lon12]

It will be Monarch crew Liam. From what I have seen their crew have been receiving training in readiness for the NG joining.

Re: Valencia, does anyone in the know have any indication as to bookings? Appreciate cannot share confidential info but I am not sure Valencia has received the same level of marketing as other new routes.

Bookings for BHX-VLC route are going quite good at the moment.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=139767965&postcount=9414

[toledoashley]

The proposed MAX10 would be a good replacement for the 321's further down the line. Its worth remembering some of the current fleet is heading towards 20 years old, and would fit in well with a replacement in 5/6/7 years time.

[The96er]

The fact is that Monarch was in profit and was renegotiating its ATOL contribution........end of!

I'm sure that the Mantegazza's rue the day that they sold such a money making enterprise !

[KyleRB]

Do you troll Twitter and Facebook as well?? No one is interested in your pathetic baiting and negativity. There's a big stone over there, go crawl under it!

[TartinTon]

The facts are that the old Monarch was screwed over by IR as the man knew nothing about how an integrated carrier should be run. Monarch should be where Jet2 are now. Thankfully, the new guard seem to have recognised this and are running to catch up. The questions are, have they allowed J2 into their space with the expansion into STN and can they recapture the market given the CAA inflicted damage from last year and are Cosmos/Avro a help or a hindrance in their revised structure with all the old hindrances still in place in Bromley? I realise the companies are no longer linked and that the parasitical relationship is thankfully severed but they could still be leaching bookings from the NewCo

[compton3bravo]

I see Monarch celebrated 20 years of flying scheduled services between Luton and Gibraltar today.. Over 1.5 million passengers have been flown on the route. Also the airline is to continue its new routes to Oporto, Stockholm and Zagreb through the coming winter.

[dc9-32]

Slightly off topic but I think it would be nice to see one of the new 737's delivered in an 80's retro livery. A very basic livery yes, but one that many on here would remember no doubt.

[ATNotts]

I'd rather see it in the 1970s (Britannia) scheme - that would be really retro!

[TSR2]

Out of curiousity, why would Monarch paint an aircraft in a Brittania retro colour scheme?

[ATNotts]

Bristol B175 Britannia series 312??? A la G-AOVT at Duxford

Perhaps you're a little young to remember that far back; I am verging on becoming an old f@rt!!

[easyflyer83]

Yep Britannia the aircraft type which, ironically, is where the Britannia Airways name derived if I'm not mistaken.

[750XL]

One of the first 737's is being painted in retro colours.

[canberra97]

Is there any confirmation or source to this?

[FQTLSteve]

Wished they had chosen Airbus....more comfortable wider cabin, and European!

[TSR2]

Never thought of Britannia the aircraft. Thanks for that, I remember them well. Another old fart.

[ratchetring]

Wished they had chosen Airbus....more comfortable wider cabin, and European!

Plus they could have used their LGW slots with the bus ...! Doh:ugh:

[Brakes to Park]

Yep Britannia the aircraft type which, ironically, is where the Britannia Airways name derived if I'm not mistaken.

Look at the tail , it might give you a clue.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Britannia_Airways_Boeing_757-200_JPTA.jpg

[easyflyer83]

It's no coincidence that Euravia changed its name to Britannia around the time that they introduced the Bristol Britannia. And when you rename yourself Britannia then why not have queen Boudica on the tail?

So the catalyst for Euravia changing its name to Britannia was because of the new aircraft type..... not so they could paint Queen Boudica on the tail. Hope that makes sense.

[750XL]

Is there any confirmation or source to this?

It's pretty common knowledge within the company, not sure about sources though sorry.

[Fried_Chicken]

The leased 738 from Pegasus(??) has been painted. Doesn't look too bad in ZB colours.

When is this to be delivered, is it still in Istanbul?

[renort]

https://www.planespotters.net/photo/758001/tc-aay-monarch-airlines-boeing-737-82rwl

[Mr A Tis]

Brexit: Flying could take a huge step backwards to Seventies-like conditions, says airline boss | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/brexit-monarch-flights-boss-step-backwards-seventies-warning-latest-a7751641.html)

[ATNotts]

Can't argue with Andrew Swaffield's concerns; there's a lot at stake.

[MKY661]

According to Jethro's 8 737-8 MAX's will be delivered in 2018. The A320's and A321's will also begin returning to their lessors then as well (I assume G-ZBAR and the ex. BMI A321's will be the first to go)

[Beanjet]

Anyone know if the 737 8 max are the 189 pax config or are they going for the max 200 with 200pax config?

I read 8 are due next year, any ideas on the where they will be based? Will it be one base or spread out?

Exciting times ahead

[LEEDS APPROACH]

You know what they say! 'as one door closes another one opens'. :hmm:

[FQTLSteve]

Will the 737's have extra leg room seats as the current Airbus fleet? So sorry that they have turned their back on Europe and gone for Boeing?

[Cazza_fly]

They have not turned their back on Europe just because they have chosen Boeing wow! It's a business and they will go for the best deal and opted for the equipment that they have deemed best to suit their needs. It's not all about politics.

As for extra legroom seats i would presume so. It's a good additional revenue earner for an airline like ZB. However i wouldnt expect to see the final seating plans / config until the routes and bases are confirmed.

[tubby linton]

The truth is that they missed the boat to obtain some early Neo delivery slots and the order size was not going to generate any discounts from Airbus.
Monarch have converted 15 options into firm orders today but surprisingly have specifed the Max8 rather than larger units. Surprising because this means that there will be nothing to replace the A321s
http://m.atwonline.com/airframes/monarch-airlines-firms-options-15-boeing-737-max-8s

[ratchetring]

They must have got a incredible deal from boeing to take the max over the neo..
Strong rumours the engineering branch is going to end up being sold to boeing

[tubby linton]

Read my post carefully Rachetring. The previous owners didn't spend a penny from 1999 onwards. They wanted to be rid of the airline and its pension fund. If we had been able to negotiate for new aircraft we may have been able to negotiate some Neo slots but as an established customer and with a relatively small fleet the discounts were not there.
Nothing happened apart from the cancellation of the B787 order. There must have been some value in the deposit paid for the widebodies and Boeing saw an opportunity aided by Seabury to gain an order. This is now why four hundred pilots are going to be converted to Boeing.
I fully believe that the relationship between Mael amd Boeing will continue to become further entwined, but I doubt it will be full ownership.

[Lon12]

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/whats-on/monarch-flights-valencia-split-naples-13225767

[ratchetring]

I fully believe that the relationship between Mael amd Boeing will continue to become further entwined, but I doubt it will be full ownership.[/QUOTE

Only a matter of time IMO Boeing are growing thier maintenance business Monarch engineering would be a ideal acquisition and provide much needed cash for the airline

[Jerbourg]

I note from FR24 that it has been doing lot's of training sorties but when is the 738 due to enter scheduled service?

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Starts flying commercial flights on Thursday. :ok:

[cornishsimon]

She's looking great having seen her overhead and in the circuit at NQY quite a lot recently

[Hotel Tango]

Caught her taking off at BHX recently:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/922/UEF1az.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmUEF1azj)

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Anyone else notice a small but interesting detail on the exterior of this aircraft - a first for Monarch I think?

[MKY661]

The British flag by the Registration?

[Mr @ Spotty M]

The first airline to act after Brexit. :E

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Yes, no Monarch aircraft has ever displayed that before. Perhaps the team who painted it in Istanbul exceeded their authority, but it looks good. The previous black/yellow/white scheme caused many passengers to ask if Monarch was a German airline, and you could see why.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

The flag has been taken from the original livery drawn up by Boeing for the Max. :ok:

[ratchetring]

The first airline to act after Brexit. :E

Whistling in the dark........Monarch must be very exposed now

[22/04]

In what way is this post evidence based. Actions on here can have unintended consequences. And anyway exposed to what?

The Union flag will play well with Monarch's passenger heartland - so why not use it?

The Daily Mail would

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

Well, one final day of blasting round the polygon - anticlockwise in the morning, clockwise in the afternoon - and off somewhere completely different tomorrow!

:)

[Flightrider]

The comments in this thread are becoming more oblique than a Monty Python script. Whistling in the dark and blasting round polygons - could someone kindly explain in plain English what on earth is being discussed?

[cornishsimon]

Suspect the final reference is about the final days training flights today and off on normal ops tomorrow

[pabloc]

Whistling in the dark.....That's the anti Monarch lot again ☹️

[canberra97]

The comments in this thread are becoming more oblique than a Monty Python script. Whistling in the dark and blasting round polygons - could someone kindly explain in plain English what on earth is being discussed?

I totally agree as it's really annoying when some posters feel they need to write such rubbish.

[canberra97]

The previous black/yellow/white scheme caused many passengers to ask if Monarch was a German airline, and you could see why.

How could the previous Black/Yellow on white livery be confused with a German airline especially with the Monarch name, I have never come across anyone who has ever thought that!

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

OK, I will explain.
1. I am writing from the point of view of a pilot who flew for Monarch in the era when it was virtually 100% charter. The only scheduled route was the Luton-Menorca Crown Service.
2. It was quite commonplace for passengers to tell us that that they'd never heard of Monarch before flying with us - because they'd booked with a tour operator - and asking about our somewhat 'Germanic' colour scheme.
3. I was one of the original Monarch Boeing 737-200 ADV pilots - Course 2 November 1980.
4. Long since retired, I have viewed, after a gap of some twenty years, the return of the Boeing 737 to Monarch.
5. With the passage of time virtually nobody is left in Monarch with 737 know-how.
6. With eight 737 MAX 8s scheduled for delivery next year, Monarch have obtained a seven year old 737-800 - G-ZBAV - to build up a corps of pilots with type experience.
7. For the past month, G-ZBAV has flown something approaching 150 non-revenue sectors, morning Birmingham-Darlington-Prestwick-Shannon-Newquay-Birmingham, reverse direction in the afternoon. This is the polygon to which I refer - sorry for being so opaque.
8. I've never seen this done before. I have to presume that the considerable non-revenue cost is being borne by the overall order package, the largest in Monarch's history by a substantial margin.
9. I take no responsibility for the 'whistling in the dark' comment.

[Hotel Tango]

OK, but I'm still puzzled as to what is "Germanic" about the livery. The colours of the German flag are black, red and gold.

Or perhaps it was the Germanic font styled "M" in the old livery. But that "M" has been modernised since.

[Integrated]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania_(airline)

[crewmeal]

7. For the past month, G-ZBAV has flown something approaching 150 non-revenue sectors, morning Birmingham-Darlington-Prestwick-Shannon-Newquay-Birmingham, reverse direction in the afternoon.

Wouldn't it have been cheaper to use a Sim or have negotiated a Sim deal with the lease?

[Georgeablelovehowindia]

A lot has changed since I set the park brake on my flying career - even the licence is now something called a Part-FCL - but it used to be you had to fly at least ten line sectors on the real aircraft under supervision, before being fully cleared.

Anyway, as Mr @ Spotty M accurately predicted, G-ZBAV is finally off earning its keep, Birmingham to Rome FCO.

:ok:

[cheesebag]

Caught the 737 over Cannock from Darlington the other night... the First MON 737 I've seen since the old -200 series!

[Hotel Tango]

What is your point Integrated. I don't follow.

[canberra97]

Nor do I, I don't see the point of his link!

[111KAB]

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/25m-bill-for-atol-contingency-plans-10839


https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/abta-demands-answers-over-caas-256-million-contingency-spend-10878

[squeaker]

No doubt someone in the CAA will be fired!!
Or probably not.

[ATNotts]

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/25m-bill-for-atol-contingency-plans-10839

The last paragraph in the TTG article said that as a result of Greybull's investment Monarch flights no longer needed ATOL which is surely factually incorrect since only package holidays are subject to ATOL requirements, scheduled service seat sales are not and never have been.

Sloppy journalism from what is supposed to be a specialist publication, or am i wrong?

[fmgc]

ATNotts, you are correct in that you are wrong. It is unusual but the ATOL will sometimes cover flights. Happened to TCX a while ago and MON shortly after the takeover in 2014.

[compton3bravo]

It definitely won't be the Transport Minister (the pink tie I can do no wrong in Maybots eyes) Chris Grayling who takes ultimate responsibility (think Southern Rail).

[Say again s l o w l y]

The last paragraph in the TTG article said that as a result of Greybull's investment Monarch flights no longer needed ATOL which is surely factually incorrect since only package holidays are subject to ATOL requirements, scheduled service seat sales are not and never have been.

Sloppy journalism from what is supposed to be a specialist publication, or am i wrong?

Very wrong. Both TCX and MAL flights were allowed to be placed into ATOL by the CAA as a way of helping reduce exposure to credit card acquirers and taking on any repatriation or refund risk into ATOL.

If the £25.6M bill is for the moves made in preparation for Monarch's failure which obviously didn't happen, then I suspect there will be some red faces, though I would suspect there were some mitigating facts at the time. I assume credibility was fairly low at the time.

Things were looking pretty shonky, but the action they took could easily have tipped things over the edge, so I'd hope they'd think twice about doing similar in the future.

[ATNotts]

Very wrong. Both TCX and MAL flights were allowed to be placed into ATOL by the CAA as a way of helping reduce exposure to credit card acquirers and taking on any repatriation or refund risk into ATOL.

Thanks for the information, but it raises another question from me.

Obviously not all scheduled airline seat sales are covered by ATOL (unless I'm again very wrong, BA tickets aren't covered by ATOL). So what differentiates, say a major airline's (scheduled) services against the scheduled services of, for example Monarch between BHX and Stockholm? And what is the benefit to the airline of adding their scheduled point to point air tickets into their ATOL fee? Surely in the event that an airline goes bust without ATOL cover the PAX are left high and dry, and since the airline has by that stage ceased operation they incur no cost. Is the CAA under any obligation to honour tickets of passengers for a failed airline.

I can understand why from a marketing standpoint carriers like Monarch, and say Jet2, might want to be able to tell customers that they are under the umbrella of ATOL, but they have now, according to the TTG article stopped that.

Apologies if these appear naive questions.

[renort]

nice little earner for the former Monarch staff who arranged the ghost fleet in spite of it being a non-event

[ratchetring]

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/monarch-reveals-it-is-reviewing-its-current-business-model-in-latest-accounts--11215

http://uk.reuters.com/article/us-monarch-airlines-outlook-idUKKBN1451EF

http://www.mro-network.com/airlines/monarch-adds-european-carrier-customers

[tubby linton]

At least the TTG has read the accounts but the figures are not correct. TTW seems to have not bothered at all.
The group now has a joint venture with Boeing for maintenance in Europe.

[ratchetring]

Must be very difficult being a relatively small fish in a large pond in the current climate , I hear the engineering business is close to signing a big deal with a major carrier for hanger work at brum:ok:

[01475]

Those aren't really awful numbers in a sense (though they do make you wonder if they really should be changing to 737s at this particular point in time), but they do point to a potential problem in the future.

In the future they need to find something for 11ish extra aircraft to do at a time when it looks a bit like they could be better making sure they have stuff to keep the 34ish they have busy. They need to make sure they avoid any more unnecessary bad publicity before they try to embark on that expansion!!!

Most worrying though is that this is the airline when fuel prices are low. When the increased full prices screw turns, airlines like this, ...

[ratchetring]

The current fleet is hardly ancient , I cannot see the desperate need to replace it with new 737,s Is a max really that much of a game changer compared to the 321?

Operating older aircraft hasn't stopped jet 2 doing well

[inOban]

I see trouble ahead, and not just for Monarch. I sense there will be little growth, at best, over the next year or two.

[lagerlout]

Those aren't really awful numbers in a sense (though they do make you wonder if they really should be changing to 737s at this particular point in time), but they do point to a potential problem in the future.

In the future they need to find something for 11ish extra aircraft to do at a time when it looks a bit like they could be better making sure they have stuff to keep the 34ish they have busy. They need to make sure they avoid any more unnecessary bad publicity before they try to embark on that expansion!!!

Most worrying though is that this is the airline when fuel prices are low. When the increased full prices screw turns, airlines like this, ...

Those results are awful. Monarch are barely treading water at the minute and committed to an expensive fleet renewal.

The competition have moved to a different level and MON still struggling to shake off the shackles of the past.

I hope whoever made this Boeing call got their sums right.

[ratchetring]

Does seem rather bizzare given the current situation they are in .

Surely replacing what is still a fairly modern fleet would be a nice to have rather than a essential

[gilesdavies]

Totally agree the 737 order makes no sense in the current situation, and if the airline can't cancel the order, they should urgently consider delaying the arrival of the new type until a plan to reverse the airlines current situation...

I can't believe the current Airbuses are that uneconomical.

Jet2 can't be helping the situation either, opening a large new base in Birmingham and growing ops at Leeds/Bradford and Manchester. Then there is the new London base at Stansted, which much be eating some what into their routes from Luton and Gatwick. Especially when both airlines are trying to chase the same sort of customers and both like to sell their own packages too.

Monarch seems to be very heavily reliant on the UK traveller to fill their planes unlike other LCC's, which operate Europe-wide. The dire Euro-rates is doing no favours, but the other airlines can absorb this, with all the Europeans coming to the UK to take advantage, as prices are cheaper for them.

Also what are with the odd-ball routes like Tel-Aviv, Stockholm and Zagreb they are flying?! These are total opposites to the beach holiday markets they operate. Tel Aviv from Luton, must be a blood bath route, easyJet, EL-AL and Wizzair are all operating the route too!

I wonder how much of the £165 million cash injection from last year, remains in the bank?

Quote from TTG:
The group has employed a group of consultants to “help with this assessment”.
Could that be the Greybull big wigs visiting, and having stern words?!

[AirportPlanner1]

I actually think there is value in Monarch and that's not lost on Greybull. The engineering arm is apparently in a good place, for the airline their LGW slots and the MAX deliveries have to be of interest to Norwegian in particular but there are others that will also want a bigger slice of the LGW pie. The LTN slots may also have some nominal value. I'd love to see them Monarch stick around and grow though.

[SWBKCB]

What about the quote:

plus a further £198 million provision for “onerous aircraft leasing contracts”.

One of the reasons for getting rid of the Airbuses?

[lagerlout]

I actually think there is value in Monarch and that's not lost on Greybull. The engineering arm is apparently in a good place, for the airline their LGW slots and the MAX deliveries have to be of interest to Norwegian in particular but there are others that will also want a bigger slice of the LGW pie. The LTN slots may also have some nominal value. I'd love to see them Monarch stick around and grow though.

May well be of interest to Norwegian but they have enough of their own problems at the minute.

[toledoashley]

From what I understand, they have looked lagerlout...

[ratchetring]

I actually think there is value in Monarch and that's not lost on Greybull. The engineering arm is apparently in a good place, for the airline their LGW slots and the MAX deliveries have to be of interest to Norwegian in particular but there are others that will also want a bigger slice of the LGW pie. The LTN slots may also have some nominal value. I'd love to see them Monarch stick around and grow though.

I think i'm right in saying monarch engineering look after Norwegian aircraft at various airports...

[01475]

I suspect the accounting adjustment for the Airbuses wouldn't have been needed if they weren't getting rid of them before the end of the contracts.

[VickersVicount]

May well be of interest to Norwegian but they have enough of their own problems at the minute.
What are these DY/D8 problems you talk of...?

[brian_dromey]

I believe the MAX deal was tied into some direly needed funds - which came via Boeing. So Monarch are wedded to the marriage with the MAX. They say to marry once for money...

Of course operationally the Airbus fleet isn't old, is pretty fuel and maintenance efficient. What we don't know is what the lease terms are like - I suspect there is a whiff of the type of thing that dragged bmi down once it was separated from its original owner. The group had various associated leasing companies from which aircraft were leased to the operating airline at rates which were not necessarily representative of the market. This seems a sensible (if not terribly ethical) way to move profits around and works as long as the group remains intact. Once separated off the money becomes "real" and the obvious problems start.

[chinapattern]

Also what are with the odd-ball routes like Tel-Aviv, Stockholm and Zagreb they are flying?! These are total opposites to the beach holiday markets they operate.

Ever considered the fact that operating only to the beach holiday market was what got them into trouble in the first place? Perhaps diversifying a bit and moving into city break territory is just what the doctor ordered.

Just look at their operation at BHX; they've picked up a bunch of cities that were unserved - Lisbon, Porto, Stockholm, Valencia which seem to be working well. Together with the likes of Barcelona, Madrid, Nice, Naples, Rome, Venice and the usual Alicante, Malaga etc you've got a network that is increasingly mirroring what EasyJet have been doing at other airports across the UK.

Zagreb is apparently going to be offered from BHX next year.

[lagerlout]

What are these DY/D8 problems you talk of...?

Fairly well documented. Delivery of leased aircraft they can't fly but costing them lots of money sat around. Massive expansion of long haul flying, cancellations due lack of crew. Could say growing pains I guess?

[compton3bravo]

More like bad planning.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

I can assure you they are not returning any of the Airbuses early. :=

[davidjohnson6]

I hope people won't mind my asking but putting it directly, why do Brits need Monarch and what is its target market ? I know this is a major strategy question but the answer escapes me.

[toledoashley]

David - I would ask the same question... The slightly obscure city routes are confusing, compared to their more established sun routes (albeit being challenged on - Spain/Portugal).

[G-FORZ]

Choice and competition is the only thing they offer. There appears no real USP with Monarch, they offer the same routes from the same airports. There also seems to be a hangover from the charter days which places the airline in the locations it currently operates from, and again offering the same routes.
Brits just need/want options, reality is we don't 'need' anything more than is currently available at the larger airports all within two hours of most of the UK population.
If an airline can offer a little more convienience and competitive cost then the seats are there for the taking.
If Monarch had chosen DSA over LBA a few years ago the story might be different...at least in the Yorkshire region. Flybe have since taken the popular routes. Would this have been enough to change Monarch's fortunes? Maybe not, people will pay a small premium for convienience but a significant difference in price would see people travelling an hour North or South for the cheaper fares - they've probably secured the market rate bookings at LBA.
Me personally, not used Monarch for 6 years, they are always more expensive than FR/LS and at the end of the day it's just a ride from A-B.

[OltonPete]

G-FORZ

In general you might be right but not the case at BHX, Monarch offer 17 destinations as a schedule operation not offered by any other airline (soon to be 15) and 8 of those are not served in any form at all although all but three of the 8 can be reached from the Midlands via EMA.

However they do a good job for BHX with EasyJet not interested, Ryanair very cautious and Flybe don't have the right equipment for some of these routes or the right cost-base by the look of it.

I used them recently to Preveza (Parga) which was a destination I wanted to visit for years but I was not prepared to travel north or south for the family holiday although I have used Gatwick this year (BGI) and will be using Heathrow soon (Avios) but in this case it was Monarch that provided the service I wanted. Coincidentally Flybe now also have a charter a few minutes after the ZB flight but for a specialised IT operator with eye-watering prices.

I do understand your point about from Manchester and Gatwick but for BHX they do fill a gap in the market where others have failed or are not interested.

The product was excellent, flights, crew (all but one newbie on the way out), extra leg-room although I chose standard seats on the way out which were fabric and the leg-room was non-existent and that was a negative.

Even got an airbridge at BHX which was attached in seconds (yes thumbs up Swissport) on a busy Sunday afternoon and as I was in row 5, I was off in minutes and bags were only 30-35 minutes.

It is difficult to compare with other airlines as I have either used Thomson (short-haul holidays) or long-haul scheduled recently but miles better than my last experience with Ryanair although to be fair that was a long time ago before allocated seating so hardly an up to date comparison.

BHX seems to be unlucky with two of their local airlines experiencing difficulties with aircraft on expensive leases (ZB Airbus & Flybe Embraer).


NB. Booked with Monarch Holidays but my Credit Card shows Cosmos

[LGS6753]

It's interesting to compare Monarch with Jet2. Monarch came from charter, and have gradually morphed in to a completely scheduled carrier. Arranging full holidays are an afterthought, but nevertheless important. Cosmos uses other airlines when necessary to sell its holidays (but I'm not sure whether Cosmos joined Greybull when Monarch did).
Jet2 on the other hand, started as a loco and has moved in to holidays in a pretty big way. Their expansion into BHX and STN this year is heavily holiday-orientated and they are directly targeting Thomson and Thomas Cook.
Of the two, I suspect Jet2 is performing better financially.

[01475]

I can assure you they are not returning any of the Airbuses early. :=

Interesting! I'm now struggling to think of where the accounting adjustment could have come from! The obvious answer would be past incorrect treatment, but obviously I'm sure it couldn't be that.

[toledoashley]

Following on from what OltonPete said, maybe their problems are due to be independent and maybe working with other airlines may help them... for instance - partnering with flybe in the regions so the right size aircraft is operating the correct route (specifically thinking Birmingham and Manchester). Could partner with Norwegian at Gatwick (same terminal unlike easyJet) to provide feed, freeing up slots for Norwegian to operate long haul - take over the Canaries, Barcelona, Alicante etc - leaving LH and Scandi to Norwegian, along with additional cities routes... could also provide assistance with the 73 MAX's.

Maybe partnerships are the way forward, instead of trying to be a wannabe TUI/Thomas Cook?

[Brigantee]

I would imagine greybull must be getting pretty desperate to move this "investment" on.....Surely this was never in the plan

[Snapper5]

They are making lots of cash from it , even more when they lease the boeings

[Brigantee]

A bit like the previous owners then....

[ssflyer]

Monarch are my airline of choice from BHX ,although on my one flight to date on Jet2 I was mighty impressed with new aircraft and sparkling ground and cabin staff.
Having a premium leg room cabin appeals to pax who prefer paying £15 for these rather than the same for wing exit seats on FR and find the trolley has run out of f&b when it gets to you! And the 23k luggage is the best in class.
I have never found Monarch attracts the vest/tattoo/piercing groups that other LCC experience and they are seldom in the press for pax problems.
That is why to many "more mature travellers"it is their airline of choice.
A poll of 10 pals at the gym,average age 55, 80% use Monarch as their first choice unless the flight times are cr&p then they use Jet2 or Ryanair/FlybeVueling)

[Crosswind Limits]

A bit like the previous owners then....

You and some others have a history of "watching" Monarch, God only knows why? :confused: Despite the fact you have backtracked a few times, you have a propensity to pass snide comment when the opportunity arises! If you are in receipt of the facts, rather than your opinion, pray tell and also tell us who you are, so we can all check your credentials! :rolleyes:

[ratchetring]

I believe HNA are still interested in the investing in Monarch that would be a great outcome, Monarch with its well respected engineering division

would fit well into the HNA group

[Brigantee]

That's exactly what MON need, A investor with deep pockets and a long term plan to grow the business , No reason why MON could not move into lo cost long haul they certainly have the experience and back up

[Snapper5]

I assume they are waiting for post Brexit to see what kind of trade deals they can muster

[TSR2]

and they are seldom in the press for pax problems.

Perhaps they keep quiet about adverse publicity. Granddaughters return flight from Malaga to Manchester last week was delayed over 2 hours due to having to offload six unruly passengers from the outbound flight (according to the captains apology for the delay).

[Brigantee]

In this day and age ...Yeah right , One thing you can say about MON compared to say Jet 2 for example who without doubt are the pikeys airline of choice is they seem to attract a more upmarket type of customer

[116d]

Depends if "adverse" publicity for instances such as drunks being offloaded/arrested is intentional in order to send a message that getting tanked up before or during a flight and then behaving badly/unruly is not going to be tolerated and they too could end up with a bill like that bloke who caused a Jet2 flight to divert last year for his drunken antics?

[nwoody2001]

With suggestions that Monarch will not being retiring/disposing of any of their Airbus fleet anytime soon (the next few seasons at least) and with 3x 737Maxs coming online in Q2 of 2018, it will be interesting to see what Monarchs schedule is like for summer 2018.

Yes there will be staff training requirements but otherwise I would imagine they will go into service ASAP... its not very efficient having brand new jets on the ground doing nothing.

I'm lead to believe that BHX will be the initial beneficiary of the 737Max's (although I have no evidence to back this up - happy to be proven wrong)...but wherever they go, if the Airbus's aren't going anywhere quick, will inherently mean Base Growth at either LGW, MAN, BHX, LTN or LBA.....?

As a brummie, im intrigued to know how they will respond to the extra 2x A/C Jet2 will be putting into BHX....

[MKY661]

Jethro's Site says that Airbus Aircraft will be returning to their lessors from next year. Not sure which ones though.

[Buster the Bear]

Did I read the published figures correctly, a £291m loss on £558m revenue?

[lagerlout]

Yes you did. Better hope they are making some good money this Summer as I really can't see Greybull stumping up for another bailout.

[01475]

You did, but a huge amount of that was an accounting adjustment in relation to the Airbus leases. Other than that they weren't doing so badly.

[Jerry123]

Could they setup a new base? Glasgow Newcastle Southampton Cardiff and Bristol could potential options for them.

[tubby linton]

Buster, try reading the accounts. (Freely available on many websites) and you will see that all of the costs associated with getting rid of the Airbus were put into the last set of accounts.
This is much more interesting,

British Steel rescuer Greybull eyes swoop on ailing Alitalia (http://news.sky.com/story/british-steel-rescuer-greybull-eyes-swoop-on-ailing-alitalia-10988654)

[Mr @ Spotty M]

Where do you get the notion that Monarch will not be disposing of any of the Airbus's any time soon from? :=

[nwoody2001]

Post #4005

[4567]

Glasgow seems a no brainer of a base for them to be honest!

[Brigantee]

Buster, try reading the accounts. (Freely available on many websites) and you will see that all of the costs associated with getting rid of the Airbus were put into the last set of accounts.
This is much more interesting,

British Steel rescuer Greybull eyes swoop on ailing Alitalia (http://news.sky.com/story/british-steel-rescuer-greybull-eyes-swoop-on-ailing-alitalia-10988654)

That is interesting ....

[Mr @ Spotty M]

My post 4005 was in reply to post 3999 "I suspect the accounting adjustment for the Airbuses wouldn't have been needed if they weren't getting rid of them before the end of the contracts."
My answer in post 4005 was they were not returning any early.
They are being returned as and when the leases are due to finish. :ugh:

[lagerlout]

That's fine but your still looking at an airline that doesn't make any money.

Looking at fares readily available for all operators it seems there is more supply than demand. I was just pointing out that Monarch need to be having a good summer. You can only Pi55 into the wind for so long before you end up getting wet.

[SWBKCB]

Could they setup a new base? Glasgow Newcastle Southampton Cardiff and Bristol could potential options for them.

Given the previous profiling of MON customers, BOH would seem favourite...:ok:

[bjones4]

Registrations for the MAX fleet will be G-MXCA through Z and G-MXDA through V.

[renort]

wont be as much fun as the last 'Charlie Alpha' to grace the MON fleet.

[111KAB]

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/285633/monarch-chief-ascribes-companys-losses-to-aircraft-write-off

[ratchetring]

A tie up with Boeing for the engineering side cannot be a bad thing i would have thought

[Leeds Spotter]

Not sure how anyone can think Greybull has the capital to purchase the Boeing 737 max aircraft.
I questioned on this forum 18 months ago the policy of Monarch getting rid of fairly new aircraft and replacing with older aircraft.
many memebers threw my comments back in my face.
These accounts (filed late) show a reduction in aircraft asset worth of £80m due to the new mix, the figures dont lie.
The Onerous Contract provision of £198.1M relates to lease costs being higher then revenue over the lease periods and the Impairment of Aircraft costs of £102.762M relating to cost to be outlayed to ensure leased aircaft can be returned without a liability.
management can see no change in leased position until 2022 and hope that building up the holiday side will bear fruit.
Cosmo holidays now renamed Monarch Holidays has seen a reduction of 25% in sales, not going in the right direction for this plan to work.
The £150M Greybull put in last October has now been accounted for, where is the £1B needed for the new aircraft.
Fortunatley as seat only sales no longer ATOL covered, the renewal of the ATOL insurance at the end of September should not be as difficult as last year, but we have no knowledge of the last 10 months trading other the companys comment that they saw profits down 35% on 2016 levels. Greybull are likley to have to find funds even for the shrinking ATOL cover as its unlikly to be covered by this years profits.

[jetpacker15]

From looking in it seems like Greybull have access to lots of credit. Surely the £165million investment just under 11 months ago was part of a long term strategy. The tie up with Boeing also suggests that one of the worlds biggest manufacturers also have faith in the plan. If I was running a business and was having a less favourable trading position than expected I would use the opportunity to sink some losses at once rather eek out costs year on year and consequently reap the future benefits. But I'm no accountant or CEO so have no idea.

[BlueA330]

I suspect the real owner of the new aircraft will be Boeing . The deposit made on the cancelled 787's being part payment

[toledoashley]

I believe it was announced that Boeing are going to fund a sale and lease back.

[tubby linton]

For those who have a concern over the fleet write down in the accounts, Etihad have just done a similar thing in their accounts.

[tubby linton]

Monarch are getting brand new aircraft from Boeing next year, so the post by Leeds spotter is nonsense.

[ratchetring]

I hear MON are to lease 3 Air tanker A330,s next year for long haul destinations to plug the gap before the new 787,s arrive

[Lee J]

Please be true!

I've been banking 120,000+ vantage points hoping for some long haul action :D

[Buster the Bear]

Blimey! The same 787s that were cancelled many years ago!

[compton3bravo]

I think you ought to take more water with it next time ratcheting!

[chaps1954]

Even if they were getting A330 which they aren`t it wouldn`t be from Tanker as all their aircraft available for lease are accounted for by TCX and LS

[rog747]

A330's from air tanker? just some pub talk I think

the MON/OM 787's were canx years ago

but the rumour mill is now grinding a tale at Monarch Towers that long haul is maybe back on the cards

[Jetscream 32]

:} Along with sub orbital flights also!

[BlueA330]

Thought these posts were years old when first reading . Why would they go back into long haul when they were so bad at it

[brian_dromey]

Because they need a niche. When everyone else was falling FR and U2 down the "unbundling" route they did that. When they see LS make hay in their former backyard they suddenly wanted to do the "holiday" thing. Now TOM and especially TCX are doing well on long haul, they fancy a bit of that.

Shame they cancelled those 787s. They would have had a good head start. The short-haul model isn't looking so clever now with Sterling and Euro being close to parity (or worse) for the foreseeable future. TOM FR, U2 and TCX can move aircraft around Europe - MON cannot.

[greatoaks]

Some of this rumour may originate from the fact that a customer survey went out canvassing opinions on favourite short and long haul destinations.

[rog747]

apart from the Caribbean where Monarch picked up the old BCAL Golden Lion routes the long haul destinations Monarch operated to previously are either off the bucket list such as Mombasa or too expensive now as a charter holiday such as the Maldives (saturated now with scheduled legacy operators)

MCO/SFB $ to £ is awful - Does Disney and Florida still sell like it did?

Mexico Cancun - everyone is doing well here - too late for MON?

Hawaii - a long way to go

Goa Trivandrum (Kerala) and Agra - maybe - Kuoni and Voyages Jules Verne have a large specialised holiday programme to India and were previous big clients of Monarch for many years with a big series of flights to India plus Egypt and Jordan

CMB - Sri Lanka recovering from post civil war but is a big market

Canada - West Jet Air Transat Condor and TCX all do rather well - very seasonal traditionally

Cape Town - Condor/TCX on that one as with MRU (also Thomson go to MRU) again CPT is seasonal

SEZ Seychelles Condor and scheduled legacy carriers - very expensive like the Maldives

Thailand BKK Phuket - Hmm I would doubt it

Banjul - Hmm whats left there?


all of Egypt has for now gone west (although here and Aqaba for Petra in Jordan were flown mostly as there and backs)

In Germany LTU and Balair sold to Air Berlin - now they are bust so Condor has the field to themselves for long haul leisure for now - old fleet 767-300ER needs replacing in the future despite a face lift for the interiors

[canberra97]

Does ratchetring want to make any comments!