LEEDS 5 [Archive] - Page 9

aeulad

18th Aug 2013, 00:33

In that case VickersViscount, you will have to take my word for it. I wouldn't post on here so adamantly about a subject unless I was in a position to do so. Believe me or don't, with that tone, I really don't care.

We are not suddenly going to start 20 new longhauls a day. We will not be announcing a 'batch' of new longhaul destinations. Over the next 3 or so years, we will be announcing 1-3 new longhauls a year. Not all new longhauls will be standalone, some will be tags to existing flights. The plan is that these slots will be taken from OTHER domestic and european flights.

All this is fluid, however, LBA was never 'started with the intention of being cut as soon as our 20 new longhauls a day start'. We're not all armchair execs on here you know...

Kind regards

aeulad

anothertyke

18th Aug 2013, 17:11

LBIA--- I think there have been 18 departures in three hours on Sat mornings this summer, at a guess over 2k people airside at 7am. How close is that to capacity? I like LBA, they have done very well, but given the wave pattern Jet 2 and RYR and MON need I wonder if they are getting a bit close to the limit with the current layout.

Yorkshire_Pudding

18th Aug 2013, 23:48

LBA is very constrained on ramp space for based aircraft. By late evening all stands are occupied and live inbound flights are parked on taxiways where the pax are taken by bus to terminal. Once the morning wave are gone, these aircraft are then towed onto stand for the next wave, between ongoing departures.

Where can further growth realistically come from?

PPRuNe Pop

19th Aug 2013, 07:12

OK guys, now for reality. My box is getting filled with complaints about the snide, abuse and rubbish posts. I agree - there are some.

So, get back on topic and no more abuse, keep to the topic and stop throwing your toys out of the pram. Anymore and some of you will take a back seat for a while.

AA&R mods.

HOODED

19th Aug 2013, 08:27

Thanks PPRuNe Pop.

Regarding growth in long haul verses runway length the latest long haul aircraft have a surprising runway performance. The 787 in particular and I suspect the A350 too would probably render a runway extension a waste of money. Bridgepoint have stated they are happy with the runway and infrastructure work will only be on the terminal. Sadly as previously stated parking is becomming a real issue and unless this is addressed growth will be severely restricted.

anothertyke

19th Aug 2013, 08:58

Agree about the runway. What about the taxiway at the SE end? Surely that must limit the departure rate and the combined departure/arrival rate which is relevant am on weekdays. Obviously that's not cheap though. As Yorkshire Pud says stand capacity must also be an issue.

StoneyBridge Radar

19th Aug 2013, 09:29

Leeds is a liitle constrained on future growth little more room to expand.
Unless they have plenty of slots left. Perhaps it needs to get some serious long haul in.
Emirates Dubai (A330). JFK they operate a 757 into Edi and Gla neiher with runways as long as Dsa though.
If road links could imorove there it should be developed as a regional Hub airport perhaps closing leeds by almagamating the two into that site.
Huge runway. Plenty of room for more terminals and plans for jetways.
Also got 24hr flight ops

Yet despite what you claim and despite the fact DSA has now been running for a number of years, the drift away from LBA to DSA is, well, zero.

There is plenty to be done at Leeds to improve capacity and the passenger experience without the need for a runway extension.

The arrival of Ryanair and Monarch have proved Leeds is the airfield of choice for the region and no amount of beating on about runway lengths, newer facilities and pie in the sky road links are going to detract from that. By reposte, one could remind everyone of DSA's appalling road links and accessibility and the fact anything flying IFR into DSA, once leaving airways, is in the ever so secure environment of the open FIR.

How do you define the "regional hub" you mention? I am not sure of your meaning. Would you class Manchester as a regional "hub" and are you using the term differently to how one would describe British Airways' operation at LHR as a "hub?"

Artie Fufkin

19th Aug 2013, 13:06

I have tried as hard as I can to resist, but the itch was too strong;

no more abuse .... stop throwing your toys out of the pram

:ugh:

BarTT

19th Aug 2013, 20:23

I don't want to get into a debate on here about DSA, but the IFR arrivals into DSA only go outside CAS at the their request

pug

19th Aug 2013, 22:55

Pardon my ignorance, but can anyone shed any light on the airport's plans for increasing ramp space in general? I know there are works ongoing to increase terminal capacity, however if the airport are to attract any more volume then surely the apron capacity will need to be increased?

benji

19th Aug 2013, 23:09

Does anyone know if LBA offer a local staff transport scheme? BAA offer train discounts for pass holders...

Thanks for any advice,

onyxcrowle

19th Aug 2013, 23:14

..........

pug

20th Aug 2013, 00:32

Onlyxcrowle, it isn't exactly isolated, it serves a major conurbation which has a GDP larger than some European countries. The reason it has only recently taken off is mainly down to the change in ownership from the local authorities (whom appeared to often be seen to be working against it); to a private equity firm, who appear to be investing in not only a major overhaul of the facilities, but also into attracting new airlines who are also generating significant growth in passenger throughput.

To suggest that Bridgepoint should close LBA so that another private sector organisation can benefit is farcical. It was always the understanding that market forces should decide the future of airports in Yorkshire and the Humber, and they are working in favour of LBA. Ultimately it is the airlines that are free to choose where they operate from, and it would appear that LBA is their airport of choice.

anothertyke

20th Aug 2013, 08:26

Agree with Pug. Plus--- there is plenty of room for terminal expansion at LBA. As usual money and minimising disruption while it's done will be the issues with that.
The way I see it, in the last five years the championship airports --- Bristol, EMA, Leeds, Liverpool, Soton, Newcastle not in any particular order-- have moved away from the next tier in the hierarchy. Not always at the same rate or for the same reasons or with the same business model but that's the way its gone. Obviously in Leeds's case the success of Jet 2 has been fundamental. Fourteen based, who would have thought it?

Channex258

20th Aug 2013, 09:30

Having worked at LBA past couple of years, the change over a short period of time is unbelieveable. Kudos to Bridgepoint for investing heavily and turning it from a run down shed to a decent regional airport.
working with wheelchair passengers get a lot of feedback regarding the new lay out and the accessibility. gate areas have been extended, plenty of seats about but obviously during the first "wave" of departures and the afternoon rush does get a bit snug at times!
All paths to and from the airport are still a problem, especially Yeadon/Rawdon way at some points of the day. Admit something needs doing there.
Expansion has been fantastic there though, i dont know whats next with regards to stand space, think jet2 and monarch normally kop for being parked on the taxiway up near the remote stands but havent done nights for a while so i stand corrected!

Flown from DSA a couple of years ago, by in large same as LBA with regards to getting there. Can see the potential there though for it to be a fantastic airport. People in the North *sorry if thats sterotyping just from personal experience, will travel great lengths when chosing an airport if the price is right. we have regulars from manchester,liverpool, newcastle, the midlands etc. So the likes of EMA,LPL,MAN,DSA,LBA,NCL,MME,BLK are all fighting for these passengers. if LBA wins them, good im kept in a job.
but the investment was necissary to keep up with the surrounding competition. seem to have been rewarded for all the investment a la Monarch, Thomson, BA and continued expansion by LS etc.

Sorry if im talking absolute crap but it's quite nice to see the airport doing alright for itself finally.

ILS32

20th Aug 2013, 10:17

Sorry if im talking absolute crap but it's quite nice to see the airport doing alright for itself finally.

No Channex258 you are quite right the improvements have made it a lot better for transiting through the airport especially the security area.The overnighting aircraft do have a problem now that they can only use 22 stands instead of 24.There is scope for increasing the number of stands probably 10 to start.I would like to see if it would be feasible to fill in the 32 dip. but at what cost? It should enable the 757s to land using the Cat3 ILS .Isn't it something to do with tending to float down the runway if they try to land using Cat3? I must agree with an earlier poster there are a lot of people in the departure lounges when the first wave goes out in the morning.It is not only on a Saturday but mid week as well.It was nice to get over the 3 million mark and hopefully by the end of 2014 approaching the 4 million mark.

Torquelink

20th Aug 2013, 11:51

Closing LBA would likely benefit MAN considerably more than DSA given relative ease of access.

onyxcrowle

20th Aug 2013, 22:32

I wasnt really meaning close the airport at all.
But what I said was that the site and layout being on top of a hill.and often clised must limit substantial expansion.
However DSA is like LBA was 30 odd years ago a small apron not much bigger than DSA is now.
It had opened again in the sixties and for years was way behind the other airports.
Wasnt MME busier back in 1978/80?
But DSA in context is in flat land its terminal has built in connections each side and cleared land to build terminal extensions.
Perhaps if they had more apron space it might help.
But the potential there should be looked at you see much fewer weather diversions.
Its had one major incident but beyond that and thankfully no real 'crash' situations.
When the lonk road is built and a business park on the doorstep things can only get better.

Fairdealfrank

20th Aug 2013, 22:55

Quote: “Whilst not wishing to dampen good news, the trend upwards does have a potential hurdle. BA are not getting fantastic loads on their LHR route and if the theory that it is only a slot sitter is true then, with all their new long haul aircraft being due shortly we may see a slow down or even a fall in pax numbers. I hope not but it's definitely a possibility.”
　
　
Quote: “LBA-LHR IS NOT A SLOT SITTER!!!

Rumor network fair enough. BA want LBA to be a success, but it's a case of use it or loose it.

Kind regards

aeulad”

This route is very unlikely to be a “slot-sitter”. Why have the extra expense of ground handling, etc., when “slot-sitting” can be achieved by adding frequencies on existing routes where these costs are already incurred.

It’s time to put this one to bed and not periodically reheat it.

By the way, does anyone know why pax off the LHR flights pass through the international arrivals section rather than domestic?

Skipness One Echo

20th Aug 2013, 23:58

Long haul expansion at LHR is ages away, the current B787s are replacing long haul B767s one for one and the A380s and B77Ws are allowing aged B744s to be retired ASAP.

Suzeman

21st Aug 2013, 15:52

By the way, does anyone know why pax off the LHR flights pass through the international arrivals section rather than domestic?

Because you are entering the Norf from foreign parts? :ok:

SWBKCB

21st Aug 2013, 16:26

I believe it's only for those without Yorkshire passports :ok:

Fairdealfrank

21st Aug 2013, 20:58

Oh very good!

HOODED

21st Aug 2013, 22:00

Back on topic. Has anyone read the Airport Master plan recently? It appears that by 2011 we will need 29 aircraft parking stands and by 2016 31!!
Mind you this was based on pax throughput without the recession, reaching 3million by 2006, 4.3 in 2011 and 5.1 in 2016. Working on their figures at 3 million pax we needed 19 stands in 2006. Guess we are ok then we have just hit 3 million and we have 22 stands so no need to park the unnecessary aircraft on taxiways then!!!! Maybe they were working on all aircraft being 757 sized. Interesting reading but perhaps it needs a little review and updating I feel. :p

FFHKG

1st Sep 2013, 10:10

I would guess that LHR passengers collect baggage in the international arrivals as the flights carry a lot of connecting international traffic from LHR, whose bags are cleared on arrival at the destination airport and not at by Customs at LHR. Terminal 1 at Manchester which is used by by BA flights from LHR does have a customs point and I have been checked by Customs there when I have arrived at MAN after connecting from an international flight at LHR.

LBIA

16th Sep 2013, 13:54

Good news again as the CAA August 2013 Provisional Stats show that LBA handled 442,529 which is +14.6% on the same month last year. Meanwhile the year rolling figure now stands at 3,171,872, which is up +7.1%

TSR2

16th Sep 2013, 17:07

Meanwhile the year rolling figure now stands at 3,171,872, which is up +17.1%

A little optimistic there. It's +7.1%

LBIA

16th Sep 2013, 17:25

Thanks for pointing that out TSR2, Was just a miss type and now corrected it.

ILS32

16th Sep 2013, 21:42

Another good set of figures.It will be interesting to see if the continual monthly increases continue this winter.If October-May flight programme continues the plus trend, then the 4 million passenger mark will be reached a lot sooner than expected.

LBIA

18th Sep 2013, 09:24

Bradford based Hajj tour operator Skyfly Connections are chartering a Boeing 767-300 from Thailand based airline Business Air to operate next months Hajj flights between Leeds and Jeddah.

Thailand's Business Air confirms UK Hajj charter plans - ch-aviation.ch (http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/news/21879-thailands-business-air-confirms-uk-hajj-charter-plans)

They have previously chartered Jet2 Boeing 757's but with Hajj getting earlier every year they don't have the capacity to operate due to it been our summer season

LBIA

25th Sep 2013, 10:48

Jet2 have just announced a 5th new route from LBA next summer with a once weekly service to Verona commencing from Wednesday, May 14th

LBIA

30th Sep 2013, 12:55

Business Air (Thailand) Boeing 767-300ER, HS-BIH is due to position into Leeds 20:00 this evening to operate the first Hajj flight to Jeddah at 22:45.

chaders

2nd Oct 2013, 17:17

Did a post disappear from here? I thought LBIA had posted

"Oh dear I understand the Thailand Business Air, Boeing 767-300, HS-BIH has just been impounded at LBA after already operating 2 hajj flights to Jeddah by the CAA for not having the right documentation....Oh dear I understand the Thailand Business Air, Boeing 767-300, HS-BIH has just been impounded at LBA after already operating 2 hajj flights to Jeddah by the CAA for not having the right documentation...."

I'd popped on to say it's just taxied out.

LBIA

2nd Oct 2013, 17:39

Yeah I did post that "chaders". I managed to delete the post by accident when editing it.

It is allegedly operating without UK approvals so CAA met the aircraft on its arrival into Leeds this morning and it has been audited. With Thailand based Business Air not been a EU registered carrier, I understand that operations from the UK to any destination other than the country of registry requires prior permission which i don't think they have.

So the Boeing 767-300, HS-BIH which was originally parked on stand 8 (Air Bridge) was towed away at around 13:00 onto taxiway November (Old runway 10/28). It was towed off the taxiway onto stand 24 at around 16:00 and as you say its just departed for Jeddah with a 7 hour delay

chaders

2nd Oct 2013, 18:17

That explains it. I thought I was losing my mind earlier ;)

flybar

2nd Oct 2013, 18:59

Any idea what this afternoons diversions were for?

LBIA

2nd Oct 2013, 21:15

I have now just heard that passengers that were due to depart on this evening flight to Jeddah have been told to go home and await further details.
Business Air have operated the first 2x flights without applying for UK permission and the CAA caught up with them. (With Business Air been a non-EU registered carrier, operations from the UK to any destination other than the country of registry requires prior permission) The Boeing 767-300 aircraft was been chartered by a Saudi agent on behalf of the Bradford based tour operator Sky-Fly Connections, I understand that they were initially informed that all permissions had been obtained by the airline, But it was found that this only to related to the Saudi end and not the UK end.

Jet2 have been asked to help out, but with them not having their own Hajj operations this year they also don't have the approvals, So it looks like a replacement carrier will have to be found at the last minute if one can find a large enough aircraft. Otherwise a lot people will have there once in a life pilgrimage to Mecca cancelled.

It is estimated that 600+ passengers have already been flown to Jeddah on the 2x Leeds flights with 300+ more due to fly out on this evenings service. Another 600+ are booked and expecting to be flown out from Manchester in the next few days as well.

LBIA

2nd Oct 2013, 21:17

FOG is the answer flybar

Been in LVP's all afternoon, I-RVR's were down to 350 meters with runway 14 in use which is CAT1 ops only. The fact that the runway surface is also wet meant that Ryanair couldn't accept a CAT3 approach onto runway 32 with tailwind due to breaking action as the B737-800 was to heavy.

N707ZS

2nd Oct 2013, 21:34

Shame about the 600 stuck in Jeddah:}

LBIA

3rd Oct 2013, 17:28

The Bradford based tour operator Sky-Fly connections have found a late replacement aircraft to operate the remaining Hajj flights programme to Jeddah from both Leeds and Manchester.
*
Flights will now be operated by Hermes/Air Mediterranee using an Airbus A321-100. The aircraft is due to position into Leeds tomorrow morning to operate the 3rd and final departure from Leeds and then operate 2 more flights from Manchester over the weekend. The only bad bit of news is that all flights will now require a tech stop enroute at Heraklion for refuelling.

Suzeman

13th Oct 2013, 15:04

Another good way to spend some more of your money...

Kirklees leader on the inaccessibility of Leeds Bradford Airport as study gets underway to assess economic impact of alternative airport - Huddersfield Examiner (http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/kirklees-leader-inaccessibility-leeds-bradford-6176981)

I recommend Crosland Moor; that should please the Kirklees councillors :)

ILS32

13th Oct 2013, 16:21

I sometimes think these councilors live on a different planet to the rest of us.This arguement about the LBA being in the wrong place has gone on for years.It's built on a hill,bad weather,lots of diversions.It makes one wonder how we manage to fly over 3 million passengers a year and and still increasing.Where will you build an alternative to Leeds.Years ago it was Elvington,then a brand new one would be built at Thorne near Doncaster. Lots of other places were mentioned but nothing ever happened except lots of talking and the idea gradually dead the death.The saviour for the region was was supposed to be DSA but less said the better on this thread.Leeds is still expanding,one reason why is that the catchment area around the airport is made up of quite a few affluent areas.Airlines like to follow the money knowing that they can fill their aircraft.Lets get back to this proposed talking shop and lets suppose the outcome is that the LBA is in the wrong place and a new airport needs to be built.Where's the money coming from?The regions councils are broke so they tell us will it be their money?Will the government pay? I don't think so look at the problems with trying to extend Heathrow or building a new London Airport.So who is left to build the alternative to the LBA?The private sector are the only ones left to build it but not if they cannot guarantee their money back for all the investment needed to build it.These councilors can talk and talk, assess as many studies as they want buts Leeds will remain the main regional airport.

SWBKCB

13th Oct 2013, 17:16

That's cheered me up on a dull day!!

So access to LBA by public transport is putting off inward investment? Sounds like somebody wasn't too happy with the taxi bill for their most recent holiday so wants the airport moved nearer - might be easier to just improve access.

Perhaps a study tour to Spain is needed?

LBIA

13th Oct 2013, 17:17

The closure of RAF Church Fenton at the end of the year comes to mind as a replacement airfield yet again for Leeds/Bradford, Just like it did in the 1980's. Its close to the M1, M62 & A1 (M) motaways. Rail Network in place with train station nearby on the Leeds - York line and has 2 decent runways pointed in the right direction, what more could you want...

But who would pay for it to be moved, And what would Bridgepoint Capital have to say about it?

paully

13th Oct 2013, 17:40

If you have the misfortune to live in Kirklees, which must be one of the worst performing councils in the UK, then the pronouncements from this clown will not come as any suprise :ugh:.....Oh yes he is busy brown nosing trying to get a parliamentary safe seat...All P:mad: and wind :*

Suzeman

13th Oct 2013, 20:42

Problem is it is not just Kirklees, it is the Leeds City Region Local Enterprise Partnership that have commissioned this study. It just happens that the article is from The Huddersfield Bugle.....

Part of the article says
Senior councillors and business leaders have backed research to assess if Leeds Bradford Airport, in its current location, boosts or hinders future economic aspirations.

The aviation study will assess the airport’s economic contribution and whether the economy could prosper quicker and far wider if the airport was located elsewhere.

It has been commissioned by the Local Enterprise Partnership (LEP), a body which forms part of the Leeds City Region group of public and private business leaders.

LEP Board members from their website

The LEP Board brings together business and local authority leaders. It is chaired by an independent private sector Chair.

Board members
• Roger Marsh - Chair
• John Parkin - Chief Executive, Leeds Bradford International Airport
• Mark Ridgway - Managing Director, Group Rhodes
• Stephanie Burras - Chief Executive, Ahead Partnership
• Paul Hamer - Chief Executive Officer, WYG
• Professor Bob Cryan - Vice-Chancellor, University of Huddersfield
• Stephen Harris - Area Director, Lloyds Banking Group
• Rashik Parmar - President, IBM Academy of Technology
• Simon Spencer - Managing Director, BorgWarner UK
• Cllr Tim Swift - Calderdale Council (Deputy Chair)
• Cllr Keith Wakefield - Leeds City Council
• Cllr David Green - Bradford Metropolitan District Council
• Cllr Mehboob Khan - Kirklees Council
• Cllr Peter Box - Wakefield Council
• Cllr James Alexander - City of York Council
• Cllr John Weighell - North Yorkshire County Council
• Cllr Anthony Alton - Harrogate Borough Council

Bet Mr Parkin has to use all his powers of control in meetings when things like this is discussed. Talk about the whole region pulling together ... :ugh:

flybar

13th Oct 2013, 20:45

Its sometimes easier to allow a study to be commissioned knowing that nothing is likely to happen anyway!!

onyxcrowle

13th Oct 2013, 21:22

This is as bad as bulldozing Heathrow and putting a replacement to th East.
While in the middle of it.
Best plan for leeds could be a tram train or go back to the idea of city wide trams.
And yes there is Dsa.
And with the upcoming inland port on its doorstep.
The M18 widening And new link road should help.
But moving leeds. Where could you put it ?.
Is there any land in the area to take it ?

BKS Air Transport

13th Oct 2013, 21:48

I guess the area they would most likely think of is that to the south of Leeds and north of Wakefield, as it has the M1, M62 and rail links. 30-40 years ago might have stood a chance with some ambition on the part of local politicians, which there wasn't....how much money is it that the Chinese are about to invest in Manchester Airport?

However, this study now belongs in the realms of fantasy for oh so many reasons, together with the Sheffield City petition. Anybody know what came from that, by the way?

Just as a note for any councillor in Kirklees having a bright idea about Church Fenton, distances by rail:
Huddersfield to Manchester Airport - 35miles
Huddersfield to Church Fenton - 32miles.
I think by road, Manchester is actually nearer.

HOODED

13th Oct 2013, 21:53

I know, how about the council using some of the money they made when they sold the airport to improve access. Better road and a rail link were supposed to be put in. Oh wait no we can spend less on a study thats been done before and come to the same conclusion. LBA is not in the best place but it's doing well and an alternative is just too costly.
Yawn!

Suzeman

13th Oct 2013, 22:04

Its sometimes easier to allow a study to be commissioned knowing that nothing is likely to happen anyway!!

Certainly is, but you have to know the political lie of the land which in this case looks quite complicated.

Maybe it has been done to put this issue to bed once and for all as far as the LEP is concerned. Then they can all support the development of LBA by pressing for further access improvements.

On the face of it, you wonder whether the LEP could spend the money on something more productive to support the region ...

LBIA

15th Oct 2013, 17:49

CAA have today released the September 2013 provisional passengers stats.

LBA handled 393.746 passengers in September which is up 16.9% on the same month last year. Meanwhile the 12 month Year rolling figure now stands at an impressive 3,228,579 passengers, which is up 8.7% on this time last year.

Out of interest British Airways carried 11,893 passengers on the Heathrow route in September, which I think is the highest figure so far for them....

TSR2

15th Oct 2013, 18:14

Out of interest British Airways carried 11,893 passengers on the Heathrow route in September, which I think is the highest figure so far them....

What does this total represent in terms of average pax per flight or load factor?

BasilBush

15th Oct 2013, 19:03

Someone had better check my arithmetic but I make it 69 per flight which equates to a seat factor of 52% (assuming a 132 seat A319). Not good enough yet, but getting more respectable. A better schedule involving a nightstopper is needed.

VickersVicount

15th Oct 2013, 19:28

Half empty still ? Mmm.

LBIA

15th Oct 2013, 19:52

I understand the last southbound normally is the weakest of the lot.

A300BOY

15th Oct 2013, 20:06

Or Half Full it want to see it that way !!!

LBIA

16th Oct 2013, 20:44

Good news as it looks like KLM are to upgrade 3 of the 4 daily Amsterdam - rotations from Fokker 70 to Embrear 190 from Monday, May 26th 2014.

LBIA

24th Oct 2013, 21:37

Tony Hallwood (Aviation Development & Marketing Director) was quoted as saying the following after LBA won the award for "Best Airport under 6 million Passengers" at the recent Airport Operators Association (AOA) awards ceremony.

“We remain dedicated to further improve and expand services available from Leeds Bradford following the introduction of British Airways and Monarch Airlines alongside the growth of Jet2.com. We look forward to introducing new airline partners and routes in 2014".

So that makes you wonder which airlines might be possibly going to LBA next and what new routes they may have lined up for next year 2014?

chaders

24th Oct 2013, 21:45

Let's hope they get taxiway Alpha fixed by then ;)

LBIA

15th Nov 2013, 16:34

The CAA October 2013 provisional passenger stats are now out and its good news yet again.

LBA handled 32,2089 pax in Oct 13 which is up +18% on the same month last year. The Year Rolling figure stands at 3,277,707 which is up +10.2% on the same time last year.
British Airways carried 11,381 pax on the Heathrow route. The Belfast City route figures continues to rise with 13,072 pax been carried by flybe, which was up 37%. Meanwhile KLM & Jet2 carried 20,219 pax on the Amsterdam route.

I just wonder if this growth will continue on into the winter?

onyxcrowle

18th Nov 2013, 22:46

So Klm are freeing up another Fokker 70.
Maybe at Dsa we need to ask nicely for then to let us have an Ams service ;).
That or wait till Dtv finishes.
That being said Klm talked about new routes and never got around this year what the other one was and they implied that they wanted a greater presence in the Uk Regions.
Question is which airports?.
And with the Fokker being phased out soon maybe with a few E190's might start to replace the 70's on current routes, Freeing up the 70's for the remaining Regionals.
Eg Iom Dsa Inv Ema Bhd Nqy.
Heres hoping....

EK77WNCL

19th Nov 2013, 23:06

May I ask whatever happened to this 777 200ER from Pakistan International Airlines that Leeds were supposed to be graced with from last month? All seems to have gone quiet, I was looking forward to watching it try to take off from LBA on a hot summers day with no wind. Would definitely be something to see, unless they swap to the 777 200LR... That thing can move!

GrahamK

20th Nov 2013, 07:25

EK77WNCL, rumour is that the route will be gone by the end of 2014, with the begining of the withdrawl of the A310s

A300BOY

20th Nov 2013, 12:08

EK77WNCL I think it would be more interesting to watch it landing on runway 14 with its landing distance of 1802 meters.

HOODED

20th Nov 2013, 14:14

Leeds has already had a 772 on PK775/6. Unfortunately it operated from MAN Does that give you a clue?? PK will pull out when they retire the A310s and the Bradford community will end up trudging across the pennines once again.:(

GrahamK

20th Nov 2013, 14:20

Hooded, perhaps AirBlue would be tempted to use their A319/321 via Turkey?

HOODED

20th Nov 2013, 17:50

Graham. A nice thought but I won't be holding my breath. Would it work with a stopover? How about an Air Blue A340? Only joking. Shame no one has any 787s or A332s spare for the route. They would be ok from our concrete roller coaster.

LAX_LHR

20th Nov 2013, 17:55

Hooded, perhaps AirBlue would be tempted to use their A319/321 via Turkey?

Given the fact the BHX flights look like they haven't worked for Air Blue, it may put them off UK expansion for the time being.

HOODED

20th Nov 2013, 19:55

LAX_LHR. They are/were competing with PK at BHX.

We are talking about someone doing the route after PIA pulls out of LBA.

They do seem to compete ok at MAN as far as I am aware or have they pulled out of there as well?

LAX_LHR

20th Nov 2013, 19:57

Still going at MAN.

I am aware they were competing with PIA at BHX, but given its a larger market, I wonder if the fact a 2nd UK point hasn't worked for them may put them off looking elsewhere for now?

onyxcrowle

20th Nov 2013, 21:20

Is leeds equipped to handle a fully loaded 777?

HOODED

20th Nov 2013, 21:33

LAX_LHR. I believe they were using an A340 out of BHX, which whilst able to go direct, is a lot of seats to sell when competing with an already established carrier using B77Ws.

Maybe an A319/320 ex LBA, after PIA leave, would be a better bet for them than competing out of MAN/BHX.

I have to say I don't think anyone is likely to pick up the route when/IF PIA pull out which would be a shame. After all PIA only came on the route after SHAHEEN showed them where a large part of their MAN pax were actually coming from! It's a real shame they were unable to extend the lease on their A310 as they were growing the route nicely.

HOODED

20th Nov 2013, 21:45

EK77WNCL

20th Nov 2013, 23:11

EK actually manage ok at NCL with the 77W, cargo is nearly always full and pax are averaging about 65% lf which is increasing quite quickly now. On the first flight for the 75th anniversary the aircraft had 419 passengers on and I think it had quite a bit of cargo and that was ok too. Fuel tanks will only be about 50% full if you think about it, that saves a couple of tons.

How about LS, LBA-ISB with a 767/A330 ;)

Channex258

21st Nov 2013, 08:58

From LBA website

SAS Launches New Direct Leeds Bradford to Copenhagen Route

Scandinavian Airlines is delighted to announce today (Thursday 21 November) that it is expanding its regional network and launching a new direct route from Leeds Bradford International Airport to Copenhagen, with operations scheduled to start 31st March 2014. The flights will operate two days a week – Monday and Friday. Flight time to Copenhagen is just 1 hour 50 minutes, and prices start from £92 one-way including all taxes and charges.

Timetable starting 31st March 2014:

Monday

Leeds Bradford-Copenhagen: Departs 17:20 arrives 20:00
Copenhagen-Leeds Bradford: Departs 16:00 arrives 16:50

Friday

Leeds Bradford-Copenhagen: Departs 20:20 arrives 23:00
Copenhagen-Leeds Bradford: Departs 19:00 arrives 19:50

Edit: just browsing on the "other" forum. CRJ 900 to operate.

TSR2

21st Nov 2013, 09:02

The flight timings seem very strange to me.

Yellow Sun

21st Nov 2013, 09:40

The flight timings seem very strange to me.

They are in local not UTC.

YS

TSR2

21st Nov 2013, 10:16

They are in local not UTC.

Yes, I appreciate that but I was referring to Monday and Friday late evening / night flights.

onyxcrowle

21st Nov 2013, 22:15

Onyxcrowle. Put Simply NO! Runway constraints would severely limit load. It would depend on the aircraft and engines fitted. The higher thrust GEs PIA use would help but you are looking at the B772LR/ER to have a chance ex LBA. The 77W EK use up the road at Newcastle must be restricted there and they have a slightly longer flat and nearer to sea level runway.

Have a look at the Boeing required field length graphs for the 777 its an eye opener.

Thank you for the response there Sir, Hoe long is the runway there at the moment . Someone implied it was only1800 feet but I thought it been extended plus theres a pretty well done photomontage of the whole new taxiways and the planned Runway.

Id be interested in knowing if Dsa ( dont shoot me for saying this just a genuine question) Could handle The fully loaded 777. There must be a fair few Asian users etc that dont use MAN and obviously leeds does ok with An A310. Is itna twice daily flight?.

Anyway was just wondering if somehow they decided to Use LBA given that its limitations mean when the A310 is gone. They can still offer flights from this side of the Penines and with Dsa being so well equipped is it a kind of outside chance and probably more likely of they want to prevent pax from going to MAN.
Or would airblue and a 320 make it work?. Just seems odd the service is under threat and Dsa is the only other Long Enough runway.
Finally did Shaheen airlines fly from Dsa in the end?.

LBIA

21st Nov 2013, 22:43

"Hooded and onyxcrowle" I thought LBA was now able to accept and handle Boeing 777-200 aircraft, If advance notice is given?

Anyway not since the dramatic u-turn earlier in the year when it was officially announced that the 777 was coming has there been a plan by PIA to swap from the current Airbus 310 operation. Like everyone else says I tend to agree that the route will most likely be dropped when the A310 is eventually retired and passengers will once again be forced back over the M62 to Manchester.

"TSR2" It seems that the new Copenhagen route has identical evening flight schedule as both the current Newcastle and Humberside to Copenhagen routes do now.

SWBKCB

22nd Nov 2013, 05:52

Timings are similar but HUY and NCL are 5/6 days a week - I think it is the Mon and Fri only schedule which is raising a few eyebrows.

flybar

22nd Nov 2013, 08:21

Leisure travellers going for a long weekend?

GrahamK

22nd Nov 2013, 08:39

Seems to depart an hour later than the HUY and NCL flights, I wonder what connections, if any, are available at that time

TSR2

22nd Nov 2013, 09:32

"TSR2" It seems that the new Copenhagen route has identical evening flight schedule as both the current Newcastle and Humberside to Copenhagen routes do now.

Thanks for that LBIA.

Leisure travellers going for a long weekend?

I would have thought an early Friday flight and a late Monday return flight would be the best if the intention is to attract leisure travellers.
Similarly, an early Monday flight with a late Friday return flight may be attractive to business travellers.

HOODED

22nd Nov 2013, 09:43

Onyxcrowle. The runway at LBA is 7380 feet the 1800 you believed it to be was probably in meters before the extension. It was 5400 feet. I always thought they sbould have extended it to 2500 meters rather than the 2250 meters or 7380 feet is is currently.
DSA is 10000 feet if I remember correctly it had a small extension when peel bought the place from the MOD, and yes that would be enough for 777 flights as it's the same length as MAN. As I mentioned though if you look at Boeings take off requirements for the 773 at sea level even that is not enough for a Max AUW take off!
AC rarely take off at Max AUW and a 772 could do ISB from LBA in most conditions but would be unable to take cargo or full tanks not that they would need to. The problems at LBA is its higher 682 ft AMSL which means air pressure is lower and therefore more runway needed for take off. Hotter weather has the same effect. Also as a condition of the granting of planning permission for the extension the runway threshold was displaced resulting in less landing distance available. Whilst the runway is 7380 ft tbe landing distance is just over 6000 ft on 32 and less than 6000 ft on 14. This is another problem as 14 has a steeper glideslope due to high ground on approach. Put simply LBA is very tight for the bigger long range stuff.
As for Shaheen as far as I am aware tbey never operated from DSA only LBA. Air Blue would be ok but couldn't do it direct. Remember PIA are serving the large Pakistani community in Bradford so goi g from DSA is almost as bad as going to MAN for them.
LBA is twice weekly with PIA but only as they dont want to hurt their MAN operation.Shaheen were at 3 weekly and talking about more/adding Lahore before they were unable to extend the lease on their A310. PIA tried to pull out a while back as they are having problems and opeating from MAN and LBA doesn't really make sense but Shaheen operating from LBA badly hit their MAN loads so they decided to take over the route themselves rather than risk someone else stealing the pax. Hope this answers your questions.

LBIA

22nd Nov 2013, 11:41

I wonder if Shaheen would be tempted to return to LBA with there newly acquired Airbus A330's if and when PIA pull out due to the retirement on the A310's and not willing to bring in the 772's?

HOODED

22nd Nov 2013, 12:00

Nice thought but I doubt it. They have A333s and are probably too big a jump pax wise but you never know.

David Sharpe

6th Jan 2014, 20:52

Have noted that Monarch Airlines have cut a fair number of rotations on the ski routes to Grenoble and Munich.

The Sunday service to Grenoble appears to end after this next weekend, apart from operating a few peak week operations with the Saturday service appearing to remain intact.

Munich appears to have been more severe, it seems to have already ended for the season apart from a couple of Friday rotations in February which have survived for now. (there have also been cuts on the Munich route from Luton based on what was originally on offer)

Despite what appears to have been an overall success story at Leeds Bradford for Monarch Airlines, they do seem to be having some difficulties making the ski routes work.

LBIA

6th Jan 2014, 22:53

Anyone know what's happening with ryanair summer 2014 schedule from Leeds/Bradford?

As things stand it looks as though 3x based aircraft will be required but there are plenty of gaps to be filled. Flights to Vilnuis, Riga and Reus were on sale up until early December but then disappeared while Barcelona and Dinard flights appear to have been removed today...

GAXLN

7th Jan 2014, 08:16

Looks like Dinard still operates twice weekly in July and August. However, Tuesday and Thursdays sees only one Dublin flight during July and August so looks to be some shuffling around of the cards (as there is at most Ryanair UK bases this coming summer).

2Planks

7th Jan 2014, 18:45

Jet2 also cancelled quite a few LBA-GNB before Christmas. Having booked 2 return trips in Spring last year I have had 3 schedule changes and 2 cancellations - to say the least its a bit frustrating. Hopefully, they can have a quiet chat and sort out next years schedule between them ;). Hopefully now the rest of the transport infrastructure is building up (scheduled buses etc) at GNB we can keep at least 2 weekly flights as it so much easier than GVA.

LBIA

14th Jan 2014, 09:02

Ryanair have just put on sale a 3x weekly Leeds/Bradford to Gerona service for summer 2014. Flights to operate on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturdays.
I suppose this is a replacement for the recently axed Barcelona route?

supman

14th Jan 2014, 20:50

Looks like Monarch have axed their Feb/Mar flights to Larnaca, just had an email to say flight has been changed to Manchester :eek: guess they just weren't getting enough bookings for this time of year...a shame.

ILS32

18th Jan 2014, 09:52

More good news for Leeds/Bradford Airport,they have been awarded Best UK Airport at the annual Globe Travel Awards ceremony.The number of passengers has passed the 3.3 million mark and continues to increase every month.They have also announced 7 new routes for 2014.It's not bad for an airport considered by some to have the worst road infrastructure in the country,suffers lots of diversions due to fog and crosswinds.Bridgepoint and the airport mgmt should be congratulated for all their efforts in achieving this award.

A300BOY

18th Jan 2014, 11:17

A little bit thin saying there are 7 new routes as some are replacing routes lost and others are old routes back in the frame. However the marketing team have done very well for us over the last few years so not knocking them just pointing out a a little of spin been added I believe.

ILS32

18th Jan 2014, 11:24

Sorry about the spin A300BOY must have spent to long on the PEEL website

HOODED

18th Jan 2014, 16:41

Great news about the award. Now where are the transatlantic/Dubai route that Bridgepoint were supposed to be bringing in??? :E

A300BOY

18th Jan 2014, 16:56

We will have to wait until an airline has an aircraft that can operate long haul from our inadequate runways as there are now no plans to improve the dimensions of it in the new revised plans.

HOODED

18th Jan 2014, 17:40

A300BOY.
New revised plans!!! Has the master plan been updated to remove parallel taxiway and small extensions at both ends then?? In all seriousness I'm not surprised given modern generation Longhaul aircraft runway performance, the 787 is quite sprightly and I suspect the A350 will be also.

Why spend all that money like BHX if all you need is airlines to purchase new aircraft?:D

A300BOY

19th Jan 2014, 22:33

The story is that no major work will be undertaken until the airport is making a profit. Cant blame them but I thought they had taken on the mantle of investing and developing the airport.

ciampino

15th Feb 2014, 10:04

If the airport are not making a profit now how can they possibly hope to make a profit in the future without any investment, to increase revenue they need more aircraft to fly into LBA, they cannot cope with the aircraft based at the airport now, not enough aircraft stands to park aircraft, maybe they should address this problem first.

A300BOY

15th Feb 2014, 16:15

We had 25 night stoppers last night so all stands and other bits of the apron used for parking so I could not agree more.

HOODED

15th Feb 2014, 21:07

Theres a stand available tonight. The PIA has diverted to MAN for a change. This time though the go around was on 32 and a Jet2 landed shortly afterwards. Wind at the time was 270/22G33 on the METAR. Very strange one approach then direct to MAN. The pax must be getting fed up of ending up at MAN or LHR when every other flight seems to be landing ok.

2Planks

16th Feb 2014, 10:08

A300BOY - I agree but do you know of any practical plans to increase apron area? From what I can see they may be limited to building a 'ramp' over the top of the long stay car park (beyond the remote area where the 75s seem to live) or is there space on the westerly side that would not involve evicting Multi Flight? This would, of course, involve all the hassles of getting round/across/under the runway!

A300BOY

16th Feb 2014, 13:21

The obvious first step would be to concrete the grass areas between the access points to the main apron at B-C-D3 and N4 so it might be possible to park some extra aircraft nose away from the terminal right up to the edge of the old runway 28 and have the taxiway down the center. Might create a problem using the stands in LVP conditions. Then you could close the long stay car park and build up the land and extend the apron eastward. This would mean a multi story car park behind the terminal to replace the long stay car park.

LBIA

10th Apr 2014, 09:04

PIA's last Airbus A310 flight between Leeds and Islamabad will be on 14th May as flights are no longer bookable after this date.
So it looking like the long awaited expected pullout is finally here!

HOODED

10th Apr 2014, 13:43

So much for LBAs first 777 then.All PIA hot air to get around their constant noise breaches because of their late arrival/departures. I wonder if anyone will take up the route otherwise the local Pakistani community will have to get used to the trogging over t big hill again.:hmm:

LBIA

10th Apr 2014, 16:44

Well makes you wonder what the Bradford Travel agent will have to say. I suppose he could always give Shaheen a recall....

HOODED

10th Apr 2014, 18:32

Would have thought the A330 - 300 might be a bit big. Never really thought PIA were serious about the 777 on our runway anyway.

HOODED

11th Apr 2014, 17:22

:ok:)Just had a look at Air Blue. Guess they aren't an option either as their fleet now only consists of A320s. Looks like we will have to entice EK in to do DXB with onwards to ISB/LHE.

Flying Yorkshireman

12th Apr 2014, 08:16

Are we sure about this? I've looked at PIA's web site and it appears that you can book LBA-Islamabad flights up to and inluding December. Or am I missing something?

BombardierCR7

12th Apr 2014, 09:08

You can only book until 14th May.

Flying Yorkshireman

12th Apr 2014, 10:45

Yes, unfortunately it looks as though I was missing something.

Telegraph & Argus report today:-

Airline may quit Leeds Bradford (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus) (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/11144751.Airline_may_quit_Leeds_Bradford/)

HOODED

13th Apr 2014, 22:20

Don't worry folks it seems PIA are putting extra flights on from Manchester going daily with 777s. :sad:

A300BOY

15th Apr 2014, 08:28

Well that will make all the Lbia supporters , myself included, very happy.

EK77WNCL

15th Apr 2014, 21:01

How about Jet2 buy up EK's 3 777 200's (non-ER) fitted with 350-ish seats and start LBA/MAN/EMA/GLA-ISB/LHE/KHI?

Would make a nice machine for the chav express down to PMI/TFS/ALC too.

HOODED

15th Apr 2014, 21:19

EK777WNCL I hope that was tongue in cheek. Many at LBIA are rather annoyed at the way PIA are treating their loyal passengers over the last few years. They would probably have never come to LBA in the first place had Shaheen not started the route and PIA found its loads fall significantly from MAN on the days the rotations were going from LBA. Jet2 could possibly do the route with a 757 but I doubt they would get approval from the Pakistan end. It seems you have to be Pakistani to operate into Pakistan from the UK. Do BA fly to Pakistan from LHR? We can only hope someone will fill the gap but sadly I doubt it so LBA will loose it's only regular long haul flight.

TSR2

15th Apr 2014, 22:32

How about Jet2 buy up EK's 3 777 200's (non-ER) fitted with 350-ish seats

If Jet2 could not add the B767's to their fleet, there is not a chance in heaven that they will purchase B777's.

EK77WNCL

15th Apr 2014, 22:46

Yeah don't worry well and truly tongue in cheek, they'd never get in. The sad thing is they could probably make it work from the UK end at least (which is where I gather most of the passengers come from).

Shaheen could do it but would they get a fully loaded A330 300 off the runway at LBA?

kittens12

16th Apr 2014, 06:04

I believe Jet 2 have a decent reputation with the local Pakistani community thanks to their Hajj flights to Saudi in the last few years.

HOODED

16th Apr 2014, 11:50

I doubt it would be fully loaded if they did use an A333. It's just too big for the route which is why I didn't think the 777 was ever an option. Shaheen used A310s as well and went 3 weekly before their leases ran out and they couldn't renew. A 787 or 767 would probably be best suited or 757 if it has the range though it may be a bit tight.

EK77WNCL

16th Apr 2014, 13:14

LBA-ISB is considerably shorter than some of the 757's routes which beat it by a good 350 miles. The only problem might be Jet2's high density configuration, Leeds having quite a short runway (shouldn't be too much bother for the mighty 757, but Muslims don't travel light from what I've seen at NCL) and Islamabad being hot and quite high.

Apart from that if Pakistan let them in 3/4 weekly on a 757 could work... They would probably need to buy another 757 though, 757 200ER?

HOODED

16th Apr 2014, 13:42

When I said tight I meant in the cabin being a non wide body, not range though it would be tight. Their current 752Ws would be ok but the cabin would need reconfiguring for a regular service to ISB. Runway at LBA should be fine for 752Ws to ISB but could restrict payload on hot no wind days, though 14 departures should help here. Of course the biggest problem would be getting approval from Pakistan for the service. This is why I don't see it happening unless Air Blue or Shaheen are interested.

Shed-on-a-Pole

16th Apr 2014, 13:49

Pakistan is a notoriously low-yield market; very price sensitive. There are also significant security implications for UK carriers. Jet2 recently dropped MAN-TLV - another route with high security requirements which does not have any synergies with sister company Jet2Holidays. TLV demand was not a problem. Jet2 focus is increasingly moving towards holiday destinations. Islamabad would be a surprising choice.

TSR2

16th Apr 2014, 15:40

Apart from that if Pakistan let them in 3/4 weekly on a 757 could work...

Na, it couldn't. It would need a trailer fitting to the 757 for all the baggage.

682ft AMSL

17th Apr 2014, 08:00

PIA has always been a high maintenance contract for the airport management, not least given the airline is run more akin to a political party and changes in leadership and strategy are common. It was considered to be worth the effort as it helped the airport management and the new owners to present their case that there is life beyond Manchester. In that sense then it has been helpful and the decent loads and strong vocal support from the community has achieved the aim of proving people prefer a local option. Hopefully this can continue to be leveraged, not just for getting people to the sub-continent, but across other markets too.

Charlie98

17th Apr 2014, 11:00

They would probably need to buy another 757 though, 757 200ER?
Could you clarify what a 757-200ER is? :rolleyes: I wouldn't exactly consider the 752W as the ER model (which was proposed but never built)

ericlday

17th Apr 2014, 11:05

Try copying 757-200ER into Google, plenty of info there !

onyxcrowle

17th Apr 2014, 11:23

Couldn't Jet2 lease a suitable aircraft? .
With their pricing I bet they would make a fortune ..

pwalhx

17th Apr 2014, 17:29

onyx I think the answer has already appeared, it is low yield and that is why Jet2 probably would not want to do it.

onyxcrowle

18th Apr 2014, 13:55

Yes but I think Jet2 being a well established and recognised brand would attract a wider audience.

pwalhx

18th Apr 2014, 15:09

Doesn't matter how wide the audience is if the yield is low. As is often said correctly on these forums it doesn't matter if all the seats re full if your not making money on those bums on seats then it isn't worth doing.

Truth is Shaheen tried it, PIA tried it, if the yield was good then we would be seeing the PK 777 at LBA, but we aren't.

HOODED

18th Apr 2014, 15:20

A little unfair. Shaheen only gave up because they couldn't renew the lease on their A310. PIA were doing it for a couple of years fine with the A310, agreed they clearly wanted to move the operation to MAN to save costs but the chief booking agent in Bradford was not best pleased. The demand is plainly there to use the A310 but probably not a 777. Remember too Shaheen went 3 weekly before they were forced to pull out through lack of equipment.

pwalhx

18th Apr 2014, 16:08

Wasn't my intention to be unfair, rather realistic. PK may have moved to Manchester to consolidate their services. However MAN has also lost Air Blue which is another indicator of the difficulties inherent in this particular market

682ft AMSL

21st Apr 2014, 11:56

So much for LBAs first 777 then.All PIA hot air to get around their constant noise breaches because of their late arrival/departures.

The upgrade to 777 was a firm committment on behalf of PIA and it had been through proper approval and sign-off from both the business and operational sides in PIA. LBA had made some necessary airside changes too to accommodate this. There was then one of the regular management changes in PIA and they decided on a different strategy - namely to consolidate into MAN. Cue some lobbying from the airport and the local community around Bradford and the service was retained, albeit with the A310.

As for 'constant' noise breeches, this has no impact on PIA whatsoever. The planning restrictions relating to chapter 2 aircraft are enforceable on the airport company, not any of the airlines. Authority to allow chapter 2 departures out of hours has to be given by a senior representative of the airport company. It was only ever a handful each year, so 'constant' is probably something of an exaggeration.

Seems to me that with Air Blue out of the way and a disposal plan drawn up for the A310s, it's just a case of things aligning in favour of consolidation at MAN. The market will still be there in the LBA catchment so, as I said previously, it's something to work with.

HOODED

21st Apr 2014, 14:05

Call me an old cynic but PIA did operate PK775/6 with a 777 but flight planned it to MAN. Maybe the airport hadn't made the necessary changes by that point or maybe they didn't have crews trained to operate from our dodgy runway.
I am aware that it was not PIAs problem re noise but it seemed that this made them look at the 777 knowing the 310s were coming to the end of their useful life. Air Blue still exist but only have A320s. Shaheen only have A330-300s for LH so neither are likely to take up the mantle.
It's sad that we are back to locals travelling to MAN but hopefully the loss of those will be not too bad on the pax growth we have seen over the last few years. I was hoping that after PIA had used LBA with 777 then we may have seen the odd BA one on diversion instead of them over flying us on the way to NCL, a bit like when AF showed BA it was possible with Concorde.

CabinCrewe

21st Apr 2014, 14:27

Wonder what the economics of an A310 over say a 767 are, as I would have thought there would be a few of them about for these sorts of routes. IMO however I think thats the last we've seen of a Pakistan route ex LBA

HOODED

21st Apr 2014, 17:53

I'm sure a 767-200 would work, but 767-300s being bigger but more easy to come by would be more likely if they were viable.
Problem is the ideal aircraft for the route would be the 787-8 but PIA are not exactly in a great place as a company and therefore not rolling in cash.
PIA will consolidate at MAN and customers will just have to go there if the want to go to Pakistan or go via somewhere.
Do PIA actually plan to replace their A310s? 4 of the 8 were leased from Airbus, or are they just dropping flights all over the network?
If anyone took on the route from LBA it would only hurt PIA out of MAN but it seems to me they probably had to make the decision with the A310 leaving the fleet. Sad but there you are.:sad:

HOODED

23rd Apr 2014, 20:23

Anyone know why tonight's PIA dropped into AMS on it's way in to LBA?:sad:

Channex258

23rd Apr 2014, 20:31

Low fuel according to a mate at Servisair.

682ft AMSL

3rd May 2014, 14:20

Good to see the aviation minister at LBA last week. Still all feels like a long way off, but at least they have engaged WSP to kick off some proper analysis on the issue. It will be interesting to see what comes of it.

I wonder if in the private meetings, the issue of APD and/or the £20m growth fund came up? A discounted rate for connections made through LHR would say much more in the short term about the commitment to recognise the importance of international connectivity. It does seem odd we make it so difficult to connect parts of the UK in need of stimulus to the only hub airport we have !

Finally, a large slug of the airport's debt was due for repayment yesterday. On the basis it still seems to be in business, I assume this was successfully refinanced

Aviation Minister drops in to discuss new airport rail link - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/general-news/aviation-minister-drops-in-to-discuss-new-airport-rail-link-1-6592763)

Mr Goodwill was at the airport yesterday for a whistle-stop tour of the facility, as part of a day of discussions with council and business leaders.

Top of the agenda was improved road and rail links to the airport.

The Minister is visiting regional airports across the country in the wake of a new Government study, which has identified the six national congestion hotspots most in need of investment.

“Coming from Yorkshire as I do, I understand the importance of regional airports, or local international airports as I think they should really be called,” he told The Yorkshire Post.

“A rail connection into the airport is obviously desirable. I am the MP for Scarborough and many of my constituents see it as [more] convenient to use Manchester airport, despite the fact it’s twice as far away, because they can get on the train at Scarborough and get off it in Manchester.

“And therefore I can understand why John (Parkin, the airport’s chief executive) is so keen to get a rail connection here, so that people an get on the train, change at Leeds or Harrogate and come into Leeds Bradford by train.”

newscaster

3rd May 2014, 17:32

PIA had six of their own GE ones and leased six PWs from Airbus, in 2003 later purchased after almost ten years, now they have just that number operating a mix of GE and PW having removed six others, no destinations are being dropped due to this and the airlines plans are only to have 777, A320 and ATR fleet. All the 310s are in Y class config of 203, 223 and 227 according to their FB page.

Did LBA ever attempt to lure Air Blue?

EDIT to add PIA did drop A310 operated Amsterdam, Frankfurt, Bangkok and Hong Kong, but not because the fleet is shrinking, they also started flying A310 Kashgar in China for another airline.

LBIA

20th Jun 2014, 15:53

Anyone know why LBA is currently closed?

No flights have have taken off in the last 30 mins and we have aircraft either in the overhead hold or diverting away elsewhere?

Channex258

20th Jun 2014, 16:00

Think of the multi flight a/c has ended up coming off rwy32. Friend just sent me a pic of it surrounded by fire engines

LBIA

20th Jun 2014, 16:23

Just been informed that as yet an unidentified light aircraft has left the runway and struck the runway 14 ILS aerial hence the airport is closed..

ILS32

20th Jun 2014, 16:37

The aircraft is unfortunately keeping the localiser gantry from collapsing. They will somehow have to stablise the gantry before the aircraft can be moved.

lamix1w

21st Jun 2014, 15:03

It was the 14 glide path aerial which was pulled down shortly after the incident.

elle may clampit

24th Jun 2014, 20:55

Guys - off topic a bit, but are Sas still flying direct leeds Copenhagen this summer?

Was trying to view options in July on their website but couldn't find any flights after this Fri 27 Jun. could all flts be full???

Appreciate any guidance.:confused:

Ringwayman

24th Jun 2014, 21:30

probably just a summer break which is indicative of the general market conditions that exist (other airport also have a contraction in services to Scandinavia)

LGWAlan

25th Jun 2014, 12:33

Starts again Monday 22/8 or Friday 25/8 according to Amadeus

Channex258

26th Jun 2014, 10:52

Flybe have announced JER-SOU-LBA-ABZ from October 2014 using Dash 8

Flybe launches multi-stop flyshuttle through Leeds Bradford (http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/about-the-airport/news/2014-06-26-flybe-new-routes)

Looks like they're giving Eastern a run for their money

MKY661

2nd Jul 2014, 13:26

Some of may have noticed that the Vueling site has MAN-BCN flights in the drop down menu. I took a peek today and saw that Leeds is also in the drop down menu. Interesting. :)

Channex258

2nd Jul 2014, 17:37

Aren't they codesharing with BA? Sure I saw something about it a bit ago

Channex258

2nd Sep 2014, 12:02

Aer Lingus Regional adds service to Leeds Bradford (http://aviationtribune.com/airlines/europe/item/1458-aer-lingus-regional-adds-service-to-leeds-bradford)

Nice addition

HOODED

2nd Sep 2014, 12:30

That's brave. I don't think MOL will like that. 2 airlines on the Dublin seems excessive though the link to EIs international routes may make it work.

Southside Hangers

3rd Sep 2014, 14:11

(UK) Reportedly UK's Leeds/Bradford airport has been evacuated and is now closed until further notice

TSR2

3rd Sep 2014, 18:52

Reportedly UK's Leeds/Bradford airport has been evacuated and is now closed until further notice

No delays or diversions according to the airports Arrivals/Departures web page,

Channex258

3rd Sep 2014, 19:13

I've just landed this past half hour there. Everything seemed normal

chaders

3rd Sep 2014, 19:19

Not noticed anything odd going on and I have a reasonable view of the place.

LBIA

3rd Sep 2014, 20:58

Maybe they were shocked at the sight of seeing the British Airways Boeing 787 dreamliner doing its missed approach whilst crew training this afternoon.

Piltdown Man

7th Sep 2014, 15:11

When will the owners of LBA spend some money on the place? Last night was the first time I've night-stopped there for years. In that time it has grown from a small, regional airport into huge one, but only in terms of flights and passenger numbers. It is a now a nasty, over-crowded cesspit of a place. It's falling apart and suffering from a chronic lack of investment both in maintenance, buildings, runway and space. My comparison is the other 40-50 European regional airports that I regularly fly to.

The lack of investment means that it requires an incredible effort on the part of the operations and handling staff to make the place work. They should not have to work as hard as they do every day. Because running close to or in excess of your capacity means that people are forced into making costly mistakes. I'd also suggest that the desperate overcrowding means that it is very close to its safe limit with regard to fire and emergency limits. People would be hurt if their was a real emergency. And that runway. I used to think RWY 18 at FRA was rough, that was until I took off from Leeds.

I'm truly glad that my future doesn't depend on LBA. If it did, I might be in for a rude shock when the place fell apart. It's only a matter of time.

paully

7th Sep 2014, 17:16

So apart from that you liked it then ;)

Siggyboy

7th Sep 2014, 17:21

Piltdown Man..you've never flown from Rhodes, Corfu or Heraklion then :)

LEEDS APPROACH

7th Sep 2014, 18:17

Completely agree Piltdown Man. The Yorkshire councils did a lot more for the airport when they owned it and they did next to nothing! The owners have deliberately left a completely meaningless masterplan on their website for the local population to be misled by, as absolutely none of it has actually happened.

The local plane spotters forum blame the innaction on the recession but the truth is the owners just cannot do the job at hand which they won the right to do. Are we really meant to believe that there is no need to spend any money yet when 3 aircraft park on the taxiways overnight? At least the council admitted they didn't have enough money to do the infrastructure upgrade that has been needed for 40 years.

The public should be informed every 5 years for exact and real plans for their local airport according to recent governmental order - that was due in 2011 but we are still waiting to be informed of accurate and real plans as we rapidly approach 2015. I personally feel very let down and it is of no surprise to me at all that passenger numbers are in decline as perversely the economy is gaining momentum.

Manchester airport (that has spend money on its infrastructure) is surging ahead again taking Yorkshire passengers just like it did in the 1980s. It is absolutely nothing to do with the recession it is to do with the ability of the airport owners to do the job at hand.

It is a very simple principle: Spend money on the airport and it will be attractive to passengers and airlines alike and passenger numbers will rise. Wait for passengers and airlines to come to a old, cramped, dilapidated and historically underfunded airport and they will not turn up. Not only that but the passengers and airlines already onboard will start to leave for airports that have spent the money.

Come back council all is forgiven........

easyflyer83

7th Sep 2014, 18:53

Christ. You've not seen MAN T1 recently. And that comes from a MAN supporting born and bred Yorkshire lad.... Though an honoury manc

SWBKCB

7th Sep 2014, 20:37

I'm surprised to hear that pax numbers are dropping at LBA, if so it must be recent as my view is Leeds has come a very long way, very quickly recently - presumably why the infrastructure is creaking.

However, what had the new management done previously for the council to do the deal?

LEEDS APPROACH

7th Sep 2014, 21:14

LBIA has come a long way very quickly. For the size of the west yorks conurbation the place languishes miles behind where it should be. The north western conurbation is roughly bigger than the Yorkshire conurbation having a ratio of 3:2. but is the MAN passenger throughput 3:2 on LBIA ?- absolutely nowhere near. Of course I am massively over simplifying issues to show LBIAs potential. Should the ratio between the two airports passenger throughput be in todays order of 7:1? Of course not.

That's why passenger number went up quickly - the airport filled up its existing capacity but no long term infrastructure plans have begun. The sole reason that the airport was sold is so that a company could come in and physically grow the airport infrastructure to allow the passengers to flow. It hasn't happened and hence the passenger numbers are being artificially altered by strategy (just as MANs passenger figures were altered by strategy when loco airlines were not welcome).

Yes the place is creaking and passenger numbers reducing. It is well beyond time for action......(rail link or no rail link)

Hull City AFC

7th Sep 2014, 21:27

Southside Hangers
(UK) Reportedly UK's Leeds/Bradford airport has been evacuated and is now closed until further notice

Yes, Leeds Bradford airport was evacuated last Wednesday afternoon due to a false activation of the fire alarm system.

Source: Airport evacuation a false alarm | Calendar - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2014-09-03/airport-evacuation-a-false-alarm/)

anothertyke

8th Sep 2014, 07:29

Looking at the CAA figures I'd say LBA is flatlining in the first half of 2014. I think the peak (0630-0800 departures) is at capacity in the summer and that is the effective constraint. Until the taxiway is extended to enable increased runway capacity, further growth will be limited. There will be no payoff for the owners from better landside facilities until they can push more traffic through.

I think the comparison with MAN is not legitimate. There is only room for one hub airport --a weak hub at that--in the North. Fairer comparisons are with LPL, EMA and BRS, the championship airports. A couple of years ago we were down to one scheduled hub connection via AMS. With the news last week we now have AMS, LHR and DUB. This is progress.

Leeds Spotter

8th Sep 2014, 15:49

Unfortunately for Bridgepoint, passenger movement at Leeds fell, 25% in the first year of ownership due to the u.k. financial crisis. They have invested millions in the airport even though it took until late 2012 before passengers numbers were restored to 2008 levels.
The airport only has two peak times at the moment, 6am to 9am and then early afternoon.
All the resident airlines are cutting back their flight programmes to ensure full flights, nothing to do with the airport more a chase for profit by Ryanair, easyjet, Jet2 etc.
Leeds saw a huge growth last year and has settled down this year especially having seen PIA remove their aircraft. The uncertainty of Monarch is also holding back planning by others.
Leeds is a big bucket and spade airport, this charter business has seen a 7% fall this year, all the big three Thomsons, Thomas Cook and Jet2 holidays have been hit especially so far in the published figures for June and July, Jet2 last week said things had picked up, not sure about the other two, this is certainly reflected in Leeds figures for these two months.
Figures for the LHR shuttle are rising, Aer Lingus start next month to Dublin, this feeder network has to be the way forward.

Flightrider

8th Sep 2014, 17:34

Looks like Eastern are putting up a fight on LBA-SOU and LBA-ABZ versus Flybe - the morning and evening SOU and middle ABZ are being moved onto the RJ135 jet from 6 October instead of the J41.

LBIA

10th Sep 2014, 11:25

Sure dose look like they are up for a fight against flybe, as there has just been an official announcement by both Leeds/Bradford Airport and Eastern Airways regarding the new improved schedule flight timings "Flightrider"

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/about-the-airport/news/2014-09-08-eastern-airways-improved-schedule-leeds-bradford

LBIA

10th Sep 2014, 11:37

Looks like SAS are giving the 2x weekly Leeds/Bradford - Copenhagen route a big upgrade aircraft wise next summer. As from March 30th 2015 flights are shown to be operated by Airbus A319 aircraft instead of the CRJ900's.

Ethiopia

11th Sep 2014, 06:07

New timings for Eastern Airways Leeds Bradford services (http://aviationtribune.com/routes/item/1499-new-timings-for-eastern-airways-leeds-bradford-services)

brian_dromey

19th Sep 2014, 09:23

I passed through LBA this week, the airport seems to be bursting at the seams. The new owners have clearly spent some money, but it is a drop in the ocean. The flow through the terminal makes no sense, a total maze of tensa barriers. The landslide and arrival facilities are still dated and grubby. The lounge could do with a facelift and some injection of character.

The southbound loads to Heathrow on the last flight of the day were very light, about 30 people. Northbound the load was very heavy indeed, just a few middle seats free in the last few rows. A surprising number had fast track entry (gold, silver card holders, full fare and connexions from business/first) at least 40 on the northbound. Which makes me hopeful for the future of the route. The number of Range Rovers and premiums metal in the shot stay was an eye-opener, but tallies with high numbers of "premium" customers. There were a surprising number of checked bags just from LHR as well, so O&D seems to be a part of the equation too. BA now offer free parking in the long stay carpark, with is walkable from the terminal. This is a big bonus.

Fairdealfrank

20th Sep 2014, 11:50

The southbound loads to Heathrow on the last flight of the day were very light, about 30 people.

It's badly timed for overnight longhaul departures ex-LHR.

Northbound the load was very heavy indeed, just a few middle seats free in the last few rows. A surprising number had fast track entry (gold, silver card holders, full fare and connexions from business/first) at least 40 on the northbound. Which makes me hopeful for the future of the route. The number of Range Rovers and premiums metal in the shot stay was an eye-opener, but tallies with high numbers of "premium" customers. There were a surprising number of checked bags just from LHR as well, so O&D seems to be a part of the equation too. BA now offer free parking in the long stay carpark, with is walkable from the terminal. This is a big bonus.

Indeed, this route is no slot-sitter.

globetrotter79

20th Sep 2014, 12:35

If, as rumoured, the plug is pulled on Little Red and BA do end up getting the slots back at LHR...I just wonder if one beneficiary could be LBA with the all important night-stopper?

CabinCrewe

20th Sep 2014, 16:37

I think there are bigger fish to fry with those slots.... think PDX, SLC and increase on frequencies on the lucrative long haul routes. Rumours of a mid haul reshuffle also to include LCA IST and ATH

brian_dromey

20th Sep 2014, 23:57

StoneyBridge Radar

21st Sep 2014, 13:52

late departures are not very useful for long-hail.

Not going west, but certainly preferred for going east or south.

Fairdealfrank

22nd Sep 2014, 00:00

The thing is that not all slots are created equal. A late northbound from ,LHR may not be that difficult to get slots for, LHR is quiet at that time and late departures are not very useful for long-hail. The early morning arrival would be more difficult, it's peak arrival from North America and Europe.

There are quite a few longhaul departures in the evenings: overnight flights to places as diverse as South America, Africa, India, Kazakstan, Asia, and Australia, and not just on BA/VS.

682ft AMSL

14th Oct 2014, 08:22

Looks like the Monarch S15 schedule is going in.

e.g - Naples in the drop down menu on Monarch. Zante and Rhodes bookable via Cosmos Flights (although they have been for some time)

111KAB

14th Oct 2014, 10:35

2014 News - Flights - GET BOOKING FOR SUMMER 2015! | Flights News - Monarch (http://www.monarch.co.uk/news/flights/2014-news/get-booking-for-summer-2015-lba)

G-TYNE

14th Oct 2014, 18:59

What's been dropped from Leeds then? No sign of Heraklion for one.

LBIA

14th Oct 2014, 19:07

What's been dropped from Leeds then? No sign of Heraklion for one.

Looks like Monarch have dropped routes to Heraklion, Bodrum & Arrecife. (All 3 routes are well served by other airlines) Next summer remains 28x weekly rotations operated by 2x based aircraft.

No sign of the rumoured new routes to Gibraltar, Sharm el Sheikh plus it would also seem that flights to Rhodes and Zante are no longer bookable on Cosmos Holidays website.

LEEDS APPROACH

14th Oct 2014, 20:00

If you don't spend money on improving an airport (as was promised) then you will lose passengers, it's as simple as that. That is where LBIA is right now despite the waffle.

Operators that state 'we want to see what's going to happen before we build some new apron' etc are dinosaurs from a bygone failing era. Quite simply Manchester must be laughing their socks off as they plaster their adverts all over west Yorkshire.

I saw a tweet from @LBIAirport on 19th August concerning a girls disappointment at no playstation3 (or any kids toys anymore) in the premier lounge. It had broken and she'd been told it costs too much to replace. I think this tells you all you need to know.

Extra terminal space, apron space and parallel taxiway, all of which should have been built [if you believe the ridiculous misleading masterplan], would have shown operators and passengers alike that this airport and owner meant serious business. But if mending a PS3 is costly then airport infrastructure upgrade will be pie in the sky.

Leeds is the fastest growing big city in the UK and the airport has gigantic potential (as Manchester airport has known for 40+ years) but only if the right people are in charge.

LEEDS APPROACH

14th Oct 2014, 20:32

The west Yorkshire public are no fools. You drive past that airport and visually the airport has literally not changed in 30+ years since the runway extension. The only outward change is a tin weather shelter.

If the public saw that the owners were serious with the shown masterplan 'plans' then they would get behind their airport even more. Their really is a feeling of complete inertia as regards progress at LBIA that literally pushes locals to fly from a nearby airport that does spend money up front on attracting them (including putting up posters).

galaxy68

15th Oct 2014, 17:31

Actually, its almost exactly 30 years since the new (crap) runway was finished. It was October or November '84 if memory serves me right. I say crap because its inadequate for widebodies. There were 4 per week the following summer, but soon this dwindled to zero as they found not only the runway but the brand new terminal was also totally inadequate! (Its been a chaotic building site since). Despite the aircraft industry building stacks of widebodies since, approximately nil venture into LBA. Twenty years earlier, in 1965 they had just finished building the new 15/33 and though the jet age had come to most other places, they gave us a runway fit for only Viscounts!
So there is a long history and tradition of failure, of always being behind. MAN and EMA have always had the distinct advantage of 1st mover status. However, I must point out that the clowns in charge in 1965 and 1985 belonged to the Council Circus. The present owners are suffering from earlier failings, but I'm sure they're much better to have in charge, as it is clearly in their best interests for the airport to do well. The previous Council owners and their management didn't know one end of an aeroplane from t'other and were often simply "working" for their handsome pensions!

Big Tudor

15th Oct 2014, 18:41

At least a local MP recognises the inadequate transport links at the moment. Not sure a rail link is the only answer though.

Rail link between Leeds and Leeds Bradford Airport vital, MP claims - Yorkshire Evening Post (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/rail-link-between-leeds-and-leeds-bradford-airport-vital-mp-claims-1-6898206)

2Planks

15th Oct 2014, 19:37

He spoke well in Parliament, even a railway station at the closest point on the current line would be good with a regular shuttle. However at a quoted cost of £98m I think it may be a while.
Look North made a big deal about the proximity of motorways to EMA and MAN. But with MAN, coming from the east its the M62/60 combo which makes it such an unpredictable journey time for me. I know Leeds will be slowish (from York) but there are a number of routes of a similar time.
But what I couldn't get my head around was the phone number passenger forecast figures - where are they going to put all the ac to achieve this? AIUI LBA is running close to capacity in the summer - are they going to build a super ramp over the longstay car park or take over the Multi Flight area??
As for the airport experience I prefer Leeds to Manchester (unless I have to travel by train) - its smaller and friendlier. (Its 3 years since I used EMA and at that time it was a dump - especially in the rain and a 400m walk to Passport Control)
Oh and as for a PlayStation and Kids toys in the Premier lounge - to me that's not a lounge. I pay for quiet and the chance to work and I do not want to be disturbed by kids larking around whilst their parents pre-load.

anothertyke

16th Oct 2014, 17:31

Agree, there's a few issues at LBA itself to shoehorn 6 or 9 million a year in rather than the current 3 million. But even supposing the investment went in to permit that and even if the market was there, we are talking about 20 to 30 thousand a day from a core catchment area in a 20 mile radius. Let's suppose rail could capture 10% of the market --optimistic. That's 2,000 to 3,000 a day. You won't justify a £100million scheme plus the operating costs on the back of that.

The nearest practical point on the railway is Horsforth. Maybe a bus from there to provide an alternative to the crawl in the 757 would be a positive immediate practical development.

Of course if Bridgepoint have a spare £100 mill that would be different.

2Planks

17th Oct 2014, 14:03

Was there ever a station in Pool (I'm assuming that's the name of the village at the bottom of Pool Bank) that could be reborn? 15 min each way on a charabanc to meet a half hourly train?

ILS32

17th Oct 2014, 14:10

There was a station which was closed in 1965 by Dr Beeching.The station and sidings is now a housing estate.

Facelookbovvered

17th Oct 2014, 20:24

A train link isn't going to happen.

Leeds supporter's were dreaming of 3 million passengers 10 years ago, Jet2, bmi, Ryanair

Its a useful regional airport, but the chance of Monarch lasting beyond winter 2015 are marginal, without the likes of easyJet its going nowhere.

RobT100

17th Oct 2014, 22:00

What a ridiculous post

anothertyke

18th Oct 2014, 09:32

Particularly when you read all the angst about Easyjet on the Newcastle thread. As long as the Jet 2 business model continues to work I think Leeds is better off with a medium sized operator plus Ryanair than the risks of RYR and EZY face to face. Ultimately the strength of the regional economy will determine what happens but doubling traffic in fifteen years feels pretty optimistic to me.

rpmac

18th Oct 2014, 11:16

Agreed and when you consider the strength of the Leeds economy compared to the NE it would seem likely that LBA will overtake NCL in terms of passenger numbers sometime in the not too distant future.

LEEDS APPROACH

18th Oct 2014, 12:01

Quote: "A parallel taxiway would not be justified until airfield movements are consistently above 20 per hour. Even in the peak summer departure rush, it's not achieving that level, so there's a long way to go before it's needed."

This is quote from the skyscraper city forum-Leeds. It could quite possibly be from someone who works for the owners of LBIA.

Why is the statement so inaccurate? Because it is up to the airport owners to do the deals with the airlines that will create the extra movements. This is the same at any progressive airport. The statement is tantamount to a shop owner saying "we'll put a handle on the door when we get enough people coming into the shop!"

Did the owners of MAN say "we'll build a second runway when we get to 30 million passengers? No they invested their MONEY in the airport up front which meant attracting and doing deals with airlines all the easier.

No more excuses LBIA needs money spending on it - that was why it was sold. Build the extra apron space instead of parking aircraft on the taxiways. Extend the terminal instead of funnelling passengers through a cramped 1980s shell and make the airport attractive by building the parallel taxiways that will save airlines fuel.

The catchment is there, yes other issues such as surface access and direct train link also need resolving but the airport owners must lead from the front. Don't wait for things to happen go make things happen Bridgepoint like competing airports have done in the past and continue to do.

Mooncrest

18th Oct 2014, 12:09

I couldn't agree more, Leeds Approach. Proactivity rather than reactivity.

SWBKCB

18th Oct 2014, 12:50

isn't it easy to spend somebody else's money? :eek:

North West

18th Oct 2014, 13:12

isn't it easy to spend somebody else's money?

Well it seems par for the course for these forums for each airport to have a nominated Walter Mitty character. The overriding qualfication for the post seems to be to have absolutely no experience of working in airport management or airline route development whatsoever. The MAN thread is oversubscribed in this regard, so maybe it is about time the balance in the North was restored

Did the owners of MAN say "we'll build a second runway when we get to 30 million passengers? No they invested their MONEY in the airport up front which meant attracting and doing deals with airlines all the easier.

They said, we've got regular inbound and outbound holding delays and congestion was a real issue that impacted punctuality and fuel burn - and in turn profitability. Obviously the hope was that the project would alleviate the delays AND allow growth of another 17m passengers per year in a 10-15 year horizon. I don't see how that is in anyway comparable to LBA, unless you are saying there is a congestion issue that needs addressing. Are there any holding delays? How much growth could be accommodated before the lack of a parallel taxiway became an issue ?

LEEDS APPROACH

18th Oct 2014, 13:26

Man had holding delays? Not quite as bad as LGW on their single runway eh! But if MAN did have holding delays that is because everyman and his dog from Yorkshire HAD to fly from there!

That is just the point LBIA needs bringing upto scratch to stop MAN pinching its passengers. The same money which NCL has had spent on it. LBIA has had virtually no real money spent on it in 40 years and asking for this to be done is not being a walter mitty character it is demanding the bare minimum.

I can understand a MAN supporter from monte carlo getting on his high horse about this because theres an awful lot of Yorkshire people who wont have to touch that place when a little bit of long overdue money is spent on LBIA.

anothertyke

18th Oct 2014, 13:33

Casual observer of scene rather than industry insider.

My take on it is that the layout does not permit more than about 12 departures and no arrivals per peak hour (say 0630-0900 summer months). This is what places the operational constraint on the working of the airport at the moment. Given that it is dominated by Jet 2 and Ryanair which need their rotations, that limits the number of based aircraft which in turn limits capacity. The above may not be completely true at the detailed level but I believe is broadly valid.

Obviously if they improved the taxiway to relax the capacity constraint, that would have implications for the terminal capacity. There's also the issue of parking capacity for the jets at night.

As with many capacity problems the issue boils down to what it is worth doing to improve conditions in the top 500 hours of demand per year and whether the market conditions are right to convert capacity into realised throughput. None of this will come cheap.

North West

18th Oct 2014, 13:46

I can understand a MAN supporter from monte carlo getting on his high horse about this because theres an awful lot of Yorkshire people who wont have to touch that place when a little bit of long overdue money is spent on LBIA.

What does that even mean ? A "supporter'. This isn't football, it's a discussion forum for people able to demonstrate a basic grasp of how the business works. I don't have any problem joining in with others pointing out the failings of Manchester Mitty's either

Maybe you need to read the SOPs that the mods have posted in the sticky above which quote, amongst other things....

If, however, you fit into the category of a Walter Mitty or someone who thinks they know how to run an airline or airport better than those who can and do, you have our permission to go away to find another site where you fit right in. You will no longer be welcome here.

LEEDS APPROACH

18th Oct 2014, 14:18

There really is nothing wrong about wanting your local region or local airport to be successful and reach its potential. You need to get over yourself.

The point is Yorkshire is a big enough and successful enough region (without having to be helped out by central govt) to expect an airport that suitably serves it. The airport is far from ideal in many regards but can do a lot more to redress the unfair balance the MAN has gained.

That is what Yorkshire people are demanding and it will happen just as the growing BA shuttle service has taken passengers away from MAN.

I can well understand why MAN are putting posters up all over West Yorks. They know the importance of every single Yorkshire passenger that they lose.

Andy_S

19th Oct 2014, 15:46

There really is nothing wrong about wanting your local region or local airport to be successful and reach its potential.

But there's a great deal wrong in feeling such an entitlement to those ends that economics and practicalities go out of the window. You used words like "expect", "unfair" and "demanded" which suggest your attachment to LBA is emotional rather than practical.

LBA is already a successful airport. I get the feeling that your real issue is that it isn't as big or as well appointed as MAN.

LEEDS APPROACH

19th Oct 2014, 16:54

Please let me clarify. LBA will never be as big as MAN - that is because it is in the wrong location. If it had been built near to the junction of the M62 / M1 70 years ago it would now be serving as an airport for the entire north midlands and north of England. That would be the ideal location for an airport well linked with road and rail and equally spaced at the centre of the main conurbations. It would now be moving more people than MAN is.

That never happened obviously which has allowed Manchester to grow to a size that in reality it should never have reached. Unfortunately for Manchester Leeds city region is not small and infact the Yorkshire region creates more wealth than the NW region and so yes emotion does come into the issue. It is high time that our far from perfect airport has just a fraction of the money that MAN has had spent on it. The councils sold the airport because they could not invest an amount of money that would bring the airport up to scratch. Both the council and Bridgepoint know that there are millions of potential passengers but to get them not only must the airport be enlarged but the airport ideally must be linked to the motorway and rail network.

The issue is how many passengers could the present LBA site move (maximum) and is it worth spending x amount of money to get to this capped amount of passengers?

Ringwayman

19th Oct 2014, 18:03

infact the Yorkshire region creates more wealth than the NW region

Let's look at the Office for National Statistics (http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/regional-trends/regional-economic-indicators/july-2014/rep-regional-economic-indicators.html#tab-Regional-output--GVA-)

Gross value added (GVA) measures the value of economic output in a particular area. As such, it is one of the most important indicators of regional economic performance.

This is from the July 2014 report highlighting the 2011 and 2012 annual figures

In billions of pounds:
North West................127.9 -> 130.6 up 2.2%
Yorkshire and The Humber..092.5 -> 093.3 up 1.0%

Cumbria's contribution to the Northwest total is £7.5 billion so that means £123 billion for the remainder of the region

Okay. So point not proved for Yorkshire. Let's look at population instead from the 2011 census instead:

Yorkshire and the Humber..5,177,200
North West................7,052,000

Taking out Cumbria from the Northwest population makes the population 500,000 less so we're still talking 6,500,000

Oh. Smaller population base as well for Yorkshire.

It would now be moving more people than MAN is.

Aren't you assuming that in the parallel world where this LBA utopia exists, MAN would not be clawing back the passenger it's perceives as "lost"?

As is stands, there is room for 1 major airport in the North. It happens to be MAN. Any long-haul will predominantly feature at MAN. LPL and LBA may gain some in the fullness of time but European links are the way forward for both. However, if an airline running LPL and/or LBA finds that it impacts on MAN so that all services would not be profitable as operating to a single airport, then it's bye-bye the weaker performer - witness KLM at LPL.

As a general aside, perhaps you may wonder if Yorkshire passengers have been heading over to LPL seeing that the LPL growth in passenger numbers far outstrips what has happened at LBA.

LEEDS APPROACH

19th Oct 2014, 18:29

That is the beauty of statistics. They go with damn lies! There are a few ways of measuring wealth and you have used one set. You take my point though Yorkshire and its region should not really be doing one seventh of MANs passengers on a level playing field should it? Then you add in the considerable NE, north midlands and Lincs passengers that would use a centrally positioned northerly airport.

Yes MAN will always be the main airport for the North now as no one will pay for a better placed airport between the conurbations.

It is down to strategy of running an airport such as when MAN didn't want loco operators and allowed LPL to rocket up to you from virtually zero. LBA has never been given a chance to show what it can do. If LBA can be invested in and surface access bettered to allow a critical mass of passengers to pass through it between 5 and 6 million then there would be a period of equalisation so that a Yorkshire airport would a be moving a more realistic 25-30% of the norths travelling passengers. There will be no long haul from LBA in its present position - the margins are too tight.

Facelookbovvered

19th Oct 2014, 19:00

Leeds is full there is no additional night parking to speak of so home base growth is going to be limited, long haul? apart from a few odd ball semi charters it won't happen, yes the likes of the 787/A350 can do it, but who is buying them? not Ryanair, not Jet2, so i see no chance of long haul schedule traffic, the wx is a threat, auto land on 32 is problematic for somes types and airlines and last time i check 14 was still cat1, it matters not that in most occasions you get in, you need extra fuel for two alternates and it screws the program if you divert, i have never not got into EMA/MAN due weather minima, i have diverted away from Leeds several times due low cloud and also crosswind.

A great regional airport,but its elevation, runway alignment & slope, climb out 32 obstacles, weather, surface transport all count against it, train from MAN to Leeds city centre is about an hour twenty, it can take 50 min from the airport to LCC down Kirkstall road any time from 7am to 10am.

Not a chance of it seeing 5m pax any time soon, it broke 3m (3.3) for the first time in 2013, but movement were 8000 less than in 2007

Manchester Kurt

19th Oct 2014, 19:33

HS3, in the next decade or so, should bring Leeds city centre within 20-25mins of MAN by train.

Plans supported by all northern councils, including Leeds and the others in West Yorkshire.

LEEDS APPROACH

19th Oct 2014, 19:52

tubby linton

19th Oct 2014, 20:43

Why do Leeds ATC think that you are ready to receive taxi instructions whilst you are still decelerating below 100kt?
Facelookbovverred , RW14 is still a Loc only approach with reasonably high mimina. The radar vectoring and control is not brilliant either.The track miles I was given the other night just did not make sense.

Manchester Kurt

19th Oct 2014, 20:51

Yes Kurt & vice versa which is why LCC are really pushing for the LBA train station. Im not sure if its 1hour or 2hour or both but LBA has a bigger catchment area than MAN . If and it's a huge if the airport could be linked properly to the motorway system and gain train station it would have little problem getting the passenger volume . MAN airport managers know this and do not take it lightly.

Umm, you miss the point, Manchester airport IS at the heart of HS3 plans, Leeds Bradford airport never will be. There will not be direct, fast, high speed trains from Newcastle, Hull, Sheffield, Liverpool, Warrington, Crewe, Birmingham etc to LBA, ever. In a decade there will be centred on MAN.

I think you worry too much on behalf those running MAN, the future seems be large airports with many airports Manchester been benefiting from this for many now.

AndyH52

19th Oct 2014, 21:18

HS3 won't serve MAN so the argument is a bit irrelevant...

Manchester Kurt

19th Oct 2014, 21:31

See page 9 - MAN very much at the point where the rail comes together west of Pennines.

Edit. the little map on page 27 shows it better.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bGwP6THP224/VEQv0LBqgMI/AAAAAAAKqzk/B1BbOCrCgOw/w457-h347-no/HS3.png

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/22093/one_north

LEEDS APPROACH

19th Oct 2014, 21:43

Leeds city rail station is the busiest after Birmingham in England (outside of London )& only behind Birmingham and Glasgow in Britain. The passenger numbers are rising at a much quicker rate than Birmingham or Glasgow. Connect this station directly up to LBA and suddenly the whole of the north of England has a very quick way to get straight to the airport could. It would take 10min from the centre of Leeds that of course will have a HS2line too. An LBA train station would be a game changer in the fight for potential northern air passengers.

LEEDS APPROACH

19th Oct 2014, 22:00

It's absolutely amazing that a city that has just hosted the tour de France better than the French have ever done it can't get a 1 mile rail track built to its own airport while over the boarder a runway gets built that is not even used. Politics eh you can keep it.

Ian Brooks

19th Oct 2014, 22:28

Leeds Approach
Calm down and get your facts right before spouting off in all directions

Now I guess your going on about Manchester runway 23L, there is noway
MAN could handle the traffic in Morning, lunchtime and teatime with
1 runway without having large ammounts of holding both for landing and
takeoff in the summer and mornings and evening in winter.
Leeds does not have enough traffic to warrant a station and as we all know Manchester had to wait until it handled 10M pax

Ian

onyxcrowle

19th Oct 2014, 23:25

Leeds Needs to move that Airport or build a spur off THE ECML and Buy oit DSA and Rename it Yorkshire Airport.
Leeds to Doncaster even on the Current ECML is very quick indeed. Reliable and comfortable.
And before you all shoot down the idea its not far from THE ECML there is a huge rail frieght and cargo mega complex being built right by the airport.
Why not buy peel out Upgrade The M1 down from the M180 TO THE A1 to Three lanes so car drivers have a clear run.
Leaving leeds is a breeze .
Once past the old A1 junction the M62 is quiet.
Dsa has huge tracts of land . A master plan which includes two bold on terminals and an air bridge or two.
There's a new Road going in .
They could build that a parkway station (they want Iike a free park and ride) Near Garforth somewhere so Leeds people could Park there with a train running onto the ECML . They could even call in a few Of the 125mph adalante trains used on the kings cross to Hull. Route.
Whisking passengers straight to DSA which id rename The Great Yorkshire Airport.
Close Teeside. And return the existing LBA to Perhaps a Business jet and Cargo Airport. .
DSA has the physical room, Space and ability to expand.
If yiu could move ops from LBA to there.
And it's not like it's not been done in the world look.at kai tak.
That was like leeds right in town. So they moved it thecsame distance.
It did loose Pax but it tripled throughput and numbers.
Granted DSA needs a bit of investment. But it's there now. Ready . Afik I though peel had secured planning for the two extensions which if you look at the terminal are connected by two link structures at each side.
I actually think DSA has issues because it's git too few airline parking stands. And neefs fresh input.
And before you really all say no indont be crazy.
A new Yorkshire airport. Has been mooted somewhere near Garforth in that near location on the New A1 (M) Or was it one of the tiny discussed RAF Stations.
Planning In the UK is ridiculous our infrastructure roads rails air all take decades of red tame endless enquiries changes of government. Years pass between any action.
Regarding HS2/3 and 4 (Which needs to link Scotland ) isn't coming to Yorkshire for another 20 years.
We need to have M'S Lobbying for work to start in the next 18 months and start building south .
Otherwise what's the point in stopping at BHX and no further.
But if it's taking that long for M'p's to sort that out.
A new Yorkshire airport won't be built for so long due to environmental studies . Public enquiries, Funding . Finding the exact spot.
Etc etc. Youl be lucky to see a spade in the ground by 2040.
By which time The current LBA will probably have peaked and fallen to low numbers as airlines recognise the location . Physical constraints.
(There isn't the room up there to build any more apron space and a satelite terminal forget it).
Its a bad location and a rail link won't fix it.
Dsa isn't growing to its strength and huge potential.
A huge flat site almost no WX issues compared to leeds.
Close to huge population centres.
And already able to handle Long Haul.
So maybe the council's and political parties of Yorkshire need to join to put together a master plan for a a Yorkshire airport.
Plus and finally on this epic post Amalgamating the Two Airport's (Once DSA) has tge extra aprons and terminals would have the ability to double passenger numbers over night as the combined routes of both airports all operating under one roof.
And amalgamating what's left of Teeside
Woukd make one heck of a draw for pax. And a serious contender of completion from Manchester.
It could even tempt some Manchester trade in Eg Emirates .
Less distance to fly.
And unlike Man Nice Flat Terrain.
Might sound crazy. But in this age of austerity why spend billions on pre planning . Land purchase legal battles environmental battles dragging it out for years when there's a near 10000 ft runway nr Three motorways. Closer to London .
Just waiting to be developed? .

Fairdealfrank

20th Oct 2014, 01:33

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-bGwP6THP224/VEQv0LBqgMI/AAAAAAAKqzk/B1BbOCrCgOw/w457-h347-no/HS3.pngNot really HS speeds, but that doesn't matter. The distances don't allow it (except possibly Leeds-Newcastle), for example, Manchester to Ringway: 10 miles, 10 minutes, 60 mph; Liverpool to Manchester: 35 mi., 20 minutes, 105 mph. However, even at these speeds, it's one hell of an improvement, and these links ARE desperately needed, NOW.

It's absolutely amazing that a city that has just hosted the tour de France better than the French have ever done it can't get a 1 mile rail track built to its own airport while over the boarder a runway gets built that is not even used. Politics eh you can keep it.
It's not that it can't be done,perhaps it's not cost-effective. Pity though, it would make life a whole lot easier!

As for Ringway, trust me, it's a whole lot better to have an additional rwy ready even if it is unused ("under-used in the off-peak" may be more accurate). That way it's already there and ready when it is needed.

Am sure you'll agree that it's far better than the current Heathrow situation.

Leeds Needs to move that Airport or build a spur off THE ECML and Buy oit DSA and Rename it Yorkshire Airport.
Do you mean the city of Leeds (i.e. the council)? Doubt if they have the "readys". Have the Finningley owners indicated a wish to sell?

And before you all shoot down the idea its not far from THE ECML there is a huge rail frieght and cargo mega complex being built right by the airport.
Why not buy peel out Upgrade The M1 down from the M180 TO THE A1 to Three lanes so car drivers have a clear run.
Who's paying?

Whisking passengers straight to DSA which id rename The Great Yorkshire Airport.
Close Teeside. And return the existing LBA to Perhaps a Business jet and Cargo Airport. .
Can't agree with that, Finningley is too far from Leeds, and from most of Yorkshire, so it couldn't be the "Great Yorkshire Airport". Yeadon, on the other hand, is fairly central in Yorkshire hence it's subtitle "Yorkshire's Airport".

If Yeadon is closed or GA/cargo only, you would need Teesside for pax in the north of the county.

DSA has the physical room, Space and ability to expand.
Correct, had there been an airport on flat land east of Leeds rather than at Yeadon the same may have been the case, but it's too late now.

And it's not like it's not been done in the world look.at kai tak.
That was like leeds right in town. So they moved it thecsame distance. Hardly the same, for Pete's sake! BTW Chek Lap Kok is much nearer to Hong Kong than Finningley to Leeds and only a 25 minute journey by train with 5 trains/hour.

A new Yorkshire airport. Has been mooted somewhere near Garforth in that near location on the New A1 (M) Or was it one of the tiny discussed RAF Stations.
Planning In the UK is ridiculous our infrastructure roads rails air all take decades of red tame endless enquiries changes of government. Years pass between any action.
Regarding HS2/3 and 4 (Which needs to link Scotland ) isn't coming to Yorkshire for another 20 years.
It's not happening.

Otherwise what's the point in stopping at BHX and no further.
There is no point having the HS2 to Leeds (or Manchester) via Birmingham.

Dsa isn't growing to its strength and huge potential.
A huge flat site almost no WX issues compared to leeds.
It needs a decent road and rail link to Sheffield.

Manchester Kurt

20th Oct 2014, 05:25

But that is exactly what HS3 is planned to be, with MAN a major part of that despite what many on here have said.

Read through various documents from the 'Core Cities' they recognise will only be one major northern airport, they recognise it is in interests of all northern areas for that airport to be a great success.

Many on here seem to want a large airport for pride purposes, those decisions makers recognise access to a market, with the connections it brings, no matter where the airport is happens to be important, hence West and South Yorks along with Merseyside authorities support the growth of MAN alongside improved connections from their areas to the only major airport in the north - that is reality folks, not some wet dream about a new mega Yorks airport that would offer no more than is already available, but at huge cost.

Oh, HS3 planned to be completed by 2026, not in 20 years.

If HS2 doesn't go via the busiest (Manchester) and second busiest (Birmingham) intercity cities to remove their traffic from the busiest mix use railway on the planet, where would it go if you intended to remove intercity trains of that railway?

anothertyke

20th Oct 2014, 07:17

Kurt -- I broadly agree with you except that just because the MP for Tatton floated an idea which won't cost him any money and a bunch of northern cities got their act together for once won't make HS3 happen and no chance in ten years. Look at HS2--- fifteen years for Phase 1 and a further six years for Phase 2. £2bn a year is all we can afford.

What I would say to you is. Suppose history had been different and there was now a two runway international airport at say Rothwell at the M62/M1 junction and a small regional airport at Ringway surrounded by Cheshire NIMBYs. Would you be singing the same tune then? Cut these guys a bit of slack. You are destroying their dreams.

Mooncrest

20th Oct 2014, 07:39

Tubby Linton,

I can't speak for the radar vectoring angle. However I remember about fifteen years ago there were complaints from the British Regional J41 crews about receiving taxi instructions during the landing roll. Reverse pitch on this aircraft is rather noisy so I suppose they had a point. My thoughts are that the lack of GMC and taxiways at Leeds could be "encouraging" the Tower controller to issue instructions as quickly as possible so they can deal with the next aircraft. Just my observation.

The best thing to do would be to telephone the ATC Watch Manager and raise your concerns and try to arrange a visit so you can see the controllers' perspective.

Manchester Kurt

20th Oct 2014, 09:08

We'll see about HS3, but I'm expecting news in the autumn statement in early December that may surprise many on here.

Sorry if reality hurts, but Manchester airport is what it and that ain't changing, the direction travel more towards fewer larger airports with airlines consolidating into large airports.

Reality I'm afraid folks.

If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle.

Kurt -- I broadly agree with you except that just because the MP for Tatton floated an idea which won't cost him any money and a bunch of northern cities got their act together for once won't make HS3 happen and no chance in ten years. Look at HS2--- fifteen years for Phase 1 and a further six years for Phase 2. £2bn a year is all we can afford.

What I would say to you is. Suppose history had been different and there was now a two runway international airport at say Rothwell at the M62/M1 junction and a small regional airport at Ringway surrounded by Cheshire NIMBYs. Would you be singing the same tune then? Cut these guys a bit of slack. You are destroying their dreams.

Facelookbovvered

21st Oct 2014, 06:05

Even if there was the will,the money & the traffic to support major expansion at Leeds, it still couldn't happen, the land to the SSW of R32 is a large hill (behind Multiflight) further west there is housing, a factory, to the North there is the terminal, the old Avro factory, to the East the land slopes away rapidly, so the airport is hemmed in due to terrain and airport fixed infrastructure.

What could be done is a parallel taxiway, but even that would involve major bridge work over the access road and would eat into the apron area and we are talking 10's of millions, Leeds could probably grow to 5 million with current layout and a move to larger aircraft such as the 738 v 737 and A321 v 320 will help that

The only money needed would spent internally or car parking where you get a very quick return on money spent, that doesn't require vision or planning permission

It a good bucket & spades airport, but will never be a long haul hub

FFHKG

21st Oct 2014, 10:43

A very sensible, reasoned and realistic assessment of the airport's future. Just hope that other's can see the sense in what is said rather than pursuing a fantasy that Leeds can compete with airports that have better infra-structure and established operators. To those talking about rail links to the existing airport or a new airport for Yorkshire - get real.

Fairdealfrank

22nd Oct 2014, 00:14

Oh, HS3 planned to be completed by 2026, not in 20 years.
Are you sure? That would make it HS2.

If HS2 doesn't go via the busiest (Manchester) and second busiest (Birmingham) intercity cities to remove their traffic from the busiest mix use railway on the planet, where would it go if you intended to remove intercity trains of that railway?
Look at a map, it's one hell of a dog leg. Surely Birmingham should be on a spur? The capacity crunch on the WCML will be at the southern end (London-Rugby).

Manchester Kurt

22nd Oct 2014, 06:06

Are you sure? That would make it HS2.

Yep, plan for HS3 to be done before HS2 Ph1.

Look at a map, it's one hell of a dog leg. Surely Birmingham should be on a spur? The capacity crunch on the WCML will be at the southern end (London-Rugby).

HS2 is not going into Brum, rather the airport, Brum city itself is on a spur.

Yes, the south end is about reducing capacity constraints south of Rugby, but also into Brum, Manc, Leeds etc.

The north end of HS2 is about connectivity and reducing that congestion into those cities, best way to improve connectivity between Manc & Leeds with Brum is by taking HS2 close by, so you can take Manc to Brum services off the overly crowded WCML (overly full, over slow) trains and put them onto the new HS2 line - thereby creating free'd capacity on the WCML for new commuter services into both Brum and Manc (obviously same applies to Leeds).