LEEDS 5

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach. Please if you are going to start banging your drum again, would you be kind enough to do it on the Church Fenton thread you created. Leave the Leeds thread for discussing happenings at LBA. You have made your veiws clear on this thread already. Those that wish to debate Leeds East becoming the new Yorkshire international can have their discussions on your new thread. I may even read it from time to time. I hope your dreams for CF come true but for now we have an airport in Leeds that seems to operate ok despite all its insurmountable problems.

My original post was about LBA and the fact there was more holding and diverting going on yesterday. BA and Ryanair diverted. BE, TOM, LS, T3, MON all had to hold for reduction in the gale force crosswinds. This of course was after the thick low cloud. Then spotters come on here asking why more routes aren't being started? It's because airlines don't like flying round in circles burning money. Airlines don't like to show themselves up and annoy customers by having to return to the airport where they set off from. Certain airlines are not willing to risk landing their latest modern wide bodies on short restricted runways that don't point into the wind. Airlines don't like waiting on the taxiways for other planes to have to push back in front of them. I would take exception to your 'seems to operate ok' statement. Then other enthusiasts ask why other airports manage to get road links built - perhaps it's because those airports have realistic prospects into the future? By the way the wind was blowing at 240 degrees yesterday as it often does.

Ok you want to talk about LBA? The airport has gained a new route to Kefalonia and lost established routes to Toulouse, La Rochelle and Sardinia. It has also lost routes to the Capital cities of Copenhagen, Berlin, Edinburgh and Islamabad in recent seasons. Summer 2015 shows a reduction in the number of rotations compared to 2014 by based operator Jet2. Let's see what 2016 brings. There were 3x as many rotations to Paris CDG in the early 1980s compared to what the airport has now. In the 1990s onward we had a multiple Brussels service and yet 25 years later it's gone! Another Capital city connection lost because the airport is not accessible by train or from the motorway. I could go on and on. I don't beat the drum it has been beating itself for 40+ years. Yorkshire needs a less restricted more suitable airport.

[Skipness One Echo]

No it doesn't, it just needs a better MAN.
We've got more than enough airports killing each other thank you very much, the ROI would be laughable IMHO.

[paully]

So lad you think you have a monopoly on care and how this part of Yorkshire works..So someone flying into London wants to get to Leeds, the vast majority of interliners are going to and from home, if you are a tourist or in business London will be a primary port of call..I hate to pee on your parade but, the fastest way from London to Leeds is by the excellent train service, about 2 hours and they go regularly and more than that they drop off in the centre of Leeds..Otherwise they would have to parp about out to Heathrow, go through etc etc..time is money in business

Why in the name of God would they want to drop off half way to Harrogate or somewhere to the east of the A1??..ok in your world they obviously would but trust me, I know business..Anyway best of luck with your dream and if it comes off fine but in the meantime please take Hooded`s advice..

Sorry forget to add that tourists usually make for york, which again the train does very well,with food and drink available.You don`t see many tourists with cameras out at Sheepscar intersection or the bottom of Briggate (not unless they are lost)

[Snodderz]

You've travelled hours from San Francisco (or Beijing) made a connection in England's famous capital and begun your flight to England's biggest and one of its most well known counties. It's May and you have looked forward to your brief visit for months.

You hold in the air above Leeds Bradford Airport and then have to divert back to London two hours after you set off. Exhausted now. Is this passenger encouraged to visit Yorkshire again?

Not a very good advert for Yorkshire. It is simply not good enough and in real terms there is absolutely no reason for it. I wont shut up about it until something is done about it. This is my right as a citizen of England and Yorkshire. Perhaps I care more about West Yorkshire than you do Paul? Civil aviation in Yorkshire is the joke of Europe.

You can't blame LBIA for that. Sure, it's altitude and location do cause a higher frequency of weather related diversions/cancellations, however, not on this occasion.

That particular flight arrived at the LBIA hold with over 70 mins of holding fuel available. How long did he hold for, roughly 45 minutes? Whilst other aircraft were landing, he then set off back to LHR. Why? Why not MAN, LPL, NCL, MME or another Yorkshire airport - DSA? Why wouldn't they divert into DSA and set you off on a quick coach journey to LBIA? On top of that, why would they return to LHR, which was suffering from long delays due to heavy winds?

British Airways wanted their aircraft back in LHR as soon as possible, due to the aforementioned delays. BA had already cancelled flights for later on in the day. One of these cancelled flights was the early afternoon LHR-LBA rotation. So not only have they not taken you anywhere, they've cancelled the next flight to your destination.

Less than 10 minutes after the BA decided to return to Heathrow, visibility was up to 3000. BA's indecisiveness and preferential routing are what caused yesterdays delays and cancellations. Not LBIA. So don't try and use their mistakes as a discredit to LBIA, or Yorkshire.

[The96er]

British Airways wanted their aircraft back in LHR as soon as possible, due to the aforementioned delays. BA had already cancelled flights for later on in the day. One of these cancelled flights was the early afternoon LHR-LBA rotation. So not only have they not taken you anywhere, they've cancelled the next flight to your destination.


MAN was asked by BA Operations to accept the divert and bus the passengers, so was likely the Captains decision to return to LHR.

[MANFOD]

MAN was asked by BA Operations to accept the divert and bus the passengers, so was likely the Captains decision to return to LHR.

Possibly so, but did MAN agree to accept the divert? It has a somewhat mixed record and unpredictable policy when it comes to taking diversions. Sometimes it's due lack of stands or the handling agents are short staffed. However, the BA shuttles from LBA are normally accepted. An Edinburgh shuttle came in quite recently.

[The96er]

Possibly so, but did MAN agree to accept the divert?

Yes, it was even allocated stand 68. The handling agent (Menzies) has NEVER refused to accept a BA divert either.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

You can't blame LBIA for that. Sure, it's altitude and location do cause a higher frequency of weather related diversions/cancellations, however, not on this occasion.

That particular flight arrived at the LBIA hold with over 70 mins of holding fuel available. How long did he hold for, roughly 45 minutes? Whilst other aircraft were landing, he then set off back to LHR. Why? Why not MAN, LPL, NCL, MME or another Yorkshire airport - DSA? Why wouldn't they divert into DSA and set you off on a quick coach journey to LBIA? On top of that, why would they return to LHR, which was suffering from long delays due to heavy winds?

British Airways wanted their aircraft back in LHR as soon as possible, due to the aforementioned delays. BA had already cancelled flights for later on in the day. One of these cancelled flights was the early afternoon LHR-LBA rotation. So not only have they not taken you anywhere, they've cancelled the next flight to your destination.

Less than 10 minutes after the BA decided to return to Heathrow, visibility was up to 3000. BA's indecisiveness and preferential routing are what caused yesterdays delays and cancellations. Not LBIA. So don't try and use their mistakes as a discredit to LBIA, or Yorkshire.

Let me take some time to explain why you are 100% incorrect snodderz.

Firstly you are mixing up two separate issues; Operational decisions by Airlines and Inability of airports to handle flights.

The point is if the BA had been able to make an approach and landing at the destination it was intended to land at it would not have had to divert anywhere. The amount of time it spent holding over LBA is irrelevant (the aircraft also had to hold over NW London). An airport built at a lower elevation would not have had the associated thick low cloud (the vale of York was 10km or more). If an airport is unable to accept an aircraft for whatever reason then it has 100% failed at providing the service it is intended for. BA could have diverted their plane to Timbuktu if they had so desired. The origin of the failure is the airport and that is where the buck stops. It stops at Leeds Bradford Airport and it goes absolutely nowhere else.

It is not the airports that rule anymore it is the airlines. Provide a fit and proper operative, efficient airport and you have a chance at attracting the airlines. The more the inefficiency and failure of an airport to its job the more chance the airlines will turn their backs. Do you think the owners of LBA will be criticising BA for only holding for 3/4 of an hour? No airline wants to spend valuable time and money doing circles at 9000 ft above the airport where they are meant to be arriving at.

This is why Yorkshire and Leeds city region needs an airport that is not built at the highest elevation in the country because it causes a huge amount of inefficiency and failure. In a nutshell the airport is very far from ideal (as the previous operators of the airport have stated). It is not just one issue - it is a long list. Elevation and associated weather being just one of the issues that affect the operation of LBA.

[SWBKCB]

because it causes a huge amount of inefficiency and failure.

Care to quantify that? How many flights a year get diverted from LBA? Is it never foggy in the Vale of York?

No such thing as an ideal airport - they all have their physical constraints. LBA might be marginally worse than others but don't believe it is really an issue for airlines.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Care to quantify that? How many flights a year get diverted from LBA? Is it never foggy in the Vale of York?

No such thing as an ideal airport - they all have their physical constraints. LBA might be marginally worse than others but don't believe it is really an issue for airlines.

It is a good point you make. It is important to remember it is not just the low cloud at LBA that causes diversions. Gale force wind (often perpendicular to the runway). High humidity, often rendering the runway wet. Snow, often more prevalent with increased altitude. Radiation fog. Icing.

The differing combinations of these weather types on a relatively short and undulating runway means that LBA has probably the worst weather record of any similar sized airport in the UK.

It is not just diversions though. A plane can hold for an hour and then manage to land. It could maybe make two missed approaches and then manage to land. This happens very frequently, especially in the Winter months and very little is ever spoken of it. Of course this costs a huge amount of money to the airlines and is obviously accounted for within deals individual airlines agree with the airport. When airports are in Low Visibility Procedures the efficiency of the airport has decreased by its very nature (less movement and less movements)-just the same as it decreases at LHR for example.

Leeds East Airport is affected by radiation fog particularly but overall the potential efficiency of the airport and diversion rate would be much less. (take into consideration - low lying airfield, potentially long unrestricted runway orientated into the prevailing wind allowing CAT2/3 operation). Generally a low lying airfield, while not perfect, will fair much better than one 681ft above sea level.

[pug]

Leeds Approach, have you thought to speak to the owners of CF yet regarding their plans?

[SWBKCB]

Of course this costs a huge amount of money to the airlines and is obviously accounted for within deals individual airlines agree with the airport. When airports are in Low Visibility Procedures the efficiency of the airport has decreased by its very nature (less movement and less movements)-just the same as it decreases at LHR for example.

There you again - how about answering the question? How bad a problem is the weather at LBA? What's the cost? Any evidence it has any impact on airlines choosing to fly there or is it just an urban myth?


LBA has probably the worst weather record of any similar sized airport in the UK

And probably the second worst is Bristol - one of the fastest growing major airports in the UK and isn't Prestwick the best? Doesn't seem to be much of a queue to get into there...

[MerchantVenturer]

The CAA stats for air transport diversions in 2014 are at this link where LBA's diversion record can be compared with other UK airports.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data/2014Annual/Table_07_1_Air_Transport_Movements_Diverted_2014.pdf

Previous years figures can be found via the CAA website.

[pug]

The way I see it, it's just an occupational hazard.. Of course no airline will like the inconvenience, but if it an airport has a strong customer base, they will probably weigh up the risk. BRS and LBA have grown quite significantly over the last ten years or so.. Despite in Leeds case of an airport with a far better diversion record being only 30 odd miles away..

CF will hopefully grow to be a good GA airport, and (from a selfish point of view) hopefully attract the likes of Multiflufht moving some of their flight training arm.. But there is no hope of seeing passenger services there in the way that some people might want..

[LEEDS APPROACH]

There you again - how about answering the question? How bad a problem is the weather at LBA? What's the cost? Any evidence it has any impact on airlines choosing to fly there or is it just an urban myth?

The 'urban myth' has struck again this morning on the EI service from DUB and onward. A missed approach, a period of holding with associated fuel burn and then diversion to MAN. Of course it affects airline's decisions - they're businesses. When planes spend time and money not being able to land and then have to divert it's not just scribbled on the back of a cig packet.

And probably the second worst is Bristol - one of the fastest growing major airports in the UK and isn't Prestwick the best? Doesn't seem to be much of a queue to get into there...

Because having good weather at an airport can not help you if you have a low catchment, poor accessibility and a big, efficient more suitable competition. Similarly having lousy weather will not prevent an airport growing quickly if it controls the geographic catchment and has less geographically suitable / accessible competition. The geographic placing of airports within a certain catchment area in conjunction with their road and rail accessibility can make or break an airport. This is why LBA is so far from ideal. It is poorly located to make use of the greater Yorkshire catchment and has a the weather record of an airfield 681ft AMSL. Double Whamy.

Perhaps your true concern is that a more suitable airport developed within Yorkshire will have an affect on your local airport?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

.....
But there is no hope of seeing passenger services there in the way that some people might want..

If you're not the Transport minister and it turns out you're just a Humberside enthusiast then I'll be respectfully disagreeing with you.

[SWBKCB]

What's the Transport Minister got to do with it?

Oh, and clearly you don't know the answer so I'll not ask the question again.

[pug]

If you're not the Transport minister and it turns out you're just a Humberside enthusiast then I'll be respectfully disagreeing with you.

You don't need to be Transport Minister to have a bit of commercial awareness. Not sure what Humberside (or being Transport Minister)has to do with it, but thanks for attempting to ignore the main points..

LBA is less than ideal in its location and facilities, but it works. There is no scope for a Manchester style international airport in Yorkshire.. That boat sailed in the 60's.. I'm not sure where the multi million pound investment is coming from to turn CF into an airport capable of handling the type of traffic you keep alluding to? DSA only got it because it qualified for EU objective one funding. CF would need a runway extension of at least 3000 ft to handle anything bigger than a restricted 737. The current road connections are worse than the ones connecting LBA..

So not really much going for CF if we're looking at it from your perspective, but if we're being realistic it has the potential to become an excellent GA facility for Yorkshire..

[LEEDS APPROACH]

You don't need to be Transport Minister to have a bit of commercial awareness. Not sure what Humberside (or being Transport Minister)has to do with it, but thanks for attempting to ignore the main points..

LBA is less than ideal in its location and facilities, but it works. Not this morning it didn't. There is no scope for a Manchester style international airport in Yorkshire.. That boat sailed in the 60's.. The boat has not sailed anywhere - I disagree. (as the former leader of Leeds City Council has recently stated.) I'm not sure where the multi million pound investment is coming from to turn CF into an airport capable of handling the type of traffic you keep alluding to? Why would you know? DSA only got it because it qualified for EU objective one funding. CF would need a runway extension of at least 3000 ft to handle anything bigger than a restricted 737. It will be incremental growth from a project that it is capable of sustaining itself starting small and growing in the way failing airports are incapable of. The landing distance at LEA is circa 500ft shorter than LBA. I don't agree with your figures. The current road connections are worse than the ones connecting LBA.. They are smaller perhaps but closer to the Motorway and much less busy and congested and capable of upgrade and so don't agree.

So not really much going for CF if we're looking at it from your perspective, I think completely the contrary but if we're being realistic it has the potential to become an excellent GA facility for Yorkshire.. This will most certainly happen

Again I would question whether your love of HUY has some bearing on your opinions relating to the gradual growth of LEA?

[pug]

I have no 'love' of HUY beyond knowing people who work there and wanting them to achieve their aims of helping to regenerate the area it serves.. However, that has nothing to do with this thread, and to be honest neither does CF.. I have always maintained that in an ideal world the Ferrybridge proposal of '67 would have been the best option.. That will not happen now, and If you're going to try and labour your point on here, you should at least tell us where you think the money would come from.. All I know is my employer is certainly not looking to jump ship from their core base to an airfield on the Vale of York..

[HOODED]

Here we go again! Leeds Approach decrying LBA and banging on about LEA (Leeds East Airport) or Church Fenton. Can you really call it an airport?? PLEASE use the CF thread if you have nothing positive to say about LBA on the Leeds thread.
Thanks.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

More holding, missed approaches, cancellations and diversions at LBA (highest airport in the UK) today.

After a long trek back from Tenerife it's not really what you want to end up in another city and then have to get back to LBA!

The wind was 250 degrees (right across the runway) and gusting 40 to 46 kts - Leeds East would have been ideal and the wind 10-15 kts less.

This is not a nasty campaign against Yeadon because I love the place but honesty people whether you're a pilot, enthusiast or politician.

I have noticed some of the local media and local aviation enthusiasts refuse to even mention the ideal potential replacement which I find a little childish.

Some think LBA is about to get a parallel taxiway - to do what exactly? Park planes on! It's all about future prospects.

[Ringwayman]

Maybe they've not mentioned it because of the cost of tarting up Church Fenton and compensating all associated with Leeds and realised that it's not cost effective.

[A300BOY]

Lbia lost 3 flights today and the wind has now dropped below 20 kts.
One Monarch A320 and a positioning Jet 2 B737-800 plus Aer Lingus cancelled the evening rotation. Whilst it is annoying and it is true the problem would not have affected Leeds East it is not exactly a disaster is it.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Lbia lost 3 flights today and the wind has now dropped below 20 kts.
One Monarch A320 and a positioning Jet 2 B737-800 plus Aer Lingus cancelled the evening rotation. Whilst it is annoying and it is true the problem would not have affected Leeds East it is not exactly a disaster is it.

Wilbur said to Orville "so we'll have to drive 20 miles, it is not exactly a disaster is it?" . "I don't want to drive, lets find a better way" said Orville.

That's what got you your career A300BOY - those people that try to find a better way. Now is the time for LBA enthusiasts to accept and give support to a better more efficient accessible airport with a flat runway.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I am not sure how to post links on here. Can somebody post a link to the Yorkshire Evening Post site to this exact story from January 2014?

I think it is a very interesting article if you study the exact wording.

[HOODED]

As A300 boy said. We lost 3 flights despite the extreme (for the time of year) weather. We actually lost a Phenom too which went to DSA (wonder why he didn't go to CF...sorry Leeds East). BTW putting a sign on the old Station Headquarters building does not make it an airport.
The point is despite the severe Crosswinds the skills of the crews meant most flights landed. Kudos to them for avoiding the disruption to the pax with their skill and professional attitude.
Back on Leeds news, is the rumor of the parallel taxyway the full length one or the bit to the east that doesn't need the tunnel extension?

[pwalhx]

Quick google search for the article Leeds Approach refers to and here it is:

Scrap HS2 and move Leeds Airport next to M1 says council - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/main-topics/politics/scrap-hs2-and-move-leeds-airport-next-to-m1-says-council-1-6405296)

I know we can all pick out the bits we wish, but the telling comment to me remains this one - “A new airport could cost £5 billion. Who is going to pay for that?”

[cumbrianboy]

we've already got an airport with easy access to the M1, M18 and A1(M) with a new link road opening in about 10 months time… it's called Doncaster Sheffield.

it also has a near 3000m runway and CATIII ILS with oodles of land for expansion …

why build a new airport?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

2.3 million people in west yorkshire and you are too far away. Hence the less than a million passengers after 10 years. Leeds city region (3.3 million people in 2024) needs an airport that is within 20 minutes. DSA will never bring about the closure of LBA and therefore Yorkshire will always be dividing itself up to fail. 1 ideal airport is required to use the entire catchment and where better than on the ECML and the Trans Pennies express and HS2?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I have stated these facts time and time again! DSA cannot even sustain a Belfast service while there is LBA MAN and EMA nearby. Not every town can have an airport when there are already established airports nearby.

[pug]

LBA does a good job at what it's supposed to do.. MAN is the Northern airport for everything else, and their plans revealed yesterday show that they are to undertake a massive commitment to further growth. Ties in with the 'Northern Powerhouse' and you then will see better surface access from the likes of Leeds, Sheffield and York. So yes, not every town can have an airport. However you will always get petty parochialism, which is partly the reason the Feerybridge proposal was brushed aside. Short of someone kindly donating £1bn, the situation will stay the same.

DSA has found that to its detriment so far..

[LEEDS APPROACH]

pwalhx, that's the yorkshire post version. now post the yorkshire evening post version. You need to think laterally. Exactly! who would help pay for all that when we are happily spending at yeadon on the temporary check in facility from 10 years ago. It could take decades - not why on earth would we need a new airport. Now where's that masterplan?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

It had to be started now but will be a gradual process over the next 10+ years. There will still be helicopters at huy for you pug. Just think of the potential klm flights that will be available from LEA. 3+3+3+0=at least 7 flights per day.

[pug]

It's strange that you've latched onto the HUY thing.. I work for a key airline that would/should feature largely in your master plan, and that is just one of them, and funnily enough they haven't even pricked their ears as I'm sure is the case with all of the others. I have spoken to people in GA in the area who know Mr Makin who say exactly the same as pretty much everyone else has on here, that he's interested in establishing a first class GA airfield with plans for non aviation related revenue, which I have also made quite clear (as have others) that I'm fully supportive of. There are no plans to turn the place into an international airport. So if you've got the cash, go offer him it, otherwise stop your trolling on the LBA thread.

[111KAB]

Lifestyle / Airline commits to Leeds Bradford Airport after coming through turbulence THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/722237-airline-commits-to-leeds-bradford-airport-after-coming-through-turbulence.html)?

[pwalhx]

As you asked here you go Leeds approach

Calls for new Leeds airport - Yorkshire Evening Post (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/calls-for-new-leeds-airport-1-6404971)

[LEEDS APPROACH]

As you asked here you go Leeds approach

Calls for new Leeds airport - Yorkshire Evening Post (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/calls-for-new-leeds-airport-1-6404971)

Thanks very much pwalhx. I find the last line particularly interesting.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Lifestyle**/**Airline commits to Leeds Bradford Airport after coming through turbulence THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/722237-airline-commits-to-leeds-bradford-airport-after-coming-through-turbulence.html)?

It is really just your typical PR stuff. It's a pity the A320 couldn't get through the turbulence yesterday to land..

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I am in total support for their cautious approach. It really is the time to make the best of what we have. The realignment of apron stands is a masterstroke. Let the market recover for the next 5 to 10 years and then lets see where we are. The link road to the airport though is absolutely vital and should be built immediately to alleviate the frequent jams through Rawdon and Yeadon. Totally the wrong time to be thinking new aircraft stands. I love what they've done with aircraft terminal connection unit and holding zone for the East apron. Pointless throwing money at it when the world market has been in recent turmoil. It really is a time for consolidation.

[brian_dromey]

Do BA passengers still get free airport parking, or has that promotion ended? A year, or so ago, I used it and it represented a great saving. Can't find any details on-line anywhere, I assume it has ended?

[LBIA]

Eastern Airways are adding a 4th daily Leeds/Bradford - Southampton service from September 14th 2015.

http://www.easternairways.com/home/fly-leeds-bradford-to-southampton

Wonder if this is a response to flybe's service not been on sale for the Winter season?

[cobopete]

Announced in Guernsey daily paper today that application to fly 3 to 5 times a week from GCI and return with ATR 42/72 to LBA has been approved. Service to start next spring. Flight timing in the middle of the day probably to utilise ac providing GCI - LCY early morning and evening rotations. Following in the footsteps of BKS and Northeast ?

Pete

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Seemed to be a bit of a near thing today at 14.13/14 z. RYR missed approach followed by sharp right turn-possibly evasive action. Was the ZB late departing after take off clearance? Just interested in the details if anyone knows more.

[pug]

Why, are you wondering if this will strengthen your personal case for a new airport at Church Fenton? For what it's worth I saw a missed approach due to 'evasive action' not so long ago at a much bigger airport..

[Jamie2k9]

Was the ZB late departing after take off clearance?

Missed approaches happen all the time, no big deal and not unique to LBA!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Missed approaches happen all the time, no big deal and not unique to LBA!

Being based at LBA I am well aware of missed approaches Jamie and I also understand they happen at other airports from time to time. Sometimes they are a 'big deal' - that is why we have the airprox reporting system. From what I was told, although I was away from the field at the time, the RYR did not carry out a standard missed approach with noise abatement procedure and hence that is why I was asking if anyone could put some meat on the bones of the incident. Obviously this is not the place to ask (if there is a place). Thanks for your input.

[lamix1w]

Thought it worth clarifying, the standard missed approach doesn't incorporate the noise abatement procedure. The standard missed approach off both ends is straight ahead to 2000ft followed by a climbing turn back to the LBA to hold at 3000ft.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Thought it worth clarifying, the standard missed approach doesn't incorporate the noise abatement procedure. The standard missed approach off both ends is straight ahead to 2000ft followed by a climbing turn back to the LBA to hold at 3000ft.

Thanks lamix that is understood. Of course the norm though is straight ahead to 4000ft to keep the passengers and the locals happy if previously requested. The RYR did appear to be below 2000ft when making a very hard right turn. My colleague tells me that the ZB was even possibly rolling underneath at the time of missed approach and took off almost immediately at about 14.13z? It does not appear as though this was a standard arrival and departure procedure of two aircraft. Would you happen to know if an airprox was filed? I ask purely as someone who is interested in the fine details of what actually happened and how serious (if serious at all) the incident was. Was the missed approach instigated by the pilot or the controller and at what point? If late, why so late and why so low? Why was the RYR not broken off from the approach earlier? Did the ZB take too much time on the departure? Not a witch hunt in the slightest I'm just very interested in what happened.

[SWBKCB]

Can you confirm date and time - can't see anything on 23/7 at 14.13z on FR24?

[The Pole]

Looking at FR24, the RYR 38XU was on approach to 32 and then turned right towards Bramhope. EXS223 LBA-TFS was taxying but didn't appear to be on the runway. The ZB followed the RYR in after its missed approach, not before

[LEEDS APPROACH]

The ZB was a departing aircraft and cannot be seen on the ground. It can be seen (pops up) as it gets to Ilkley moor area on departure. It is not the arriving ZB. I have it only on passed on information that the 2 aircraft were much closer than would be normally expected during the 'go around' and that the hard right turn by the RYR could have possibly been for evasive reasons but it obviously will not be publicised unless either any of the pilots involved or the ATC have filed an airprox. Just would have liked to have seen the event and wondered if anyone actually had. History now.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

This must have something to do with Church Fenton, surely..? :E

[LBIA]

Monarch Airlines have today announced that they are to commence a new 3x times weekly service from Leeds/Bradford to Malaga from June 2016.

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/media/1873/monarch-summer-16-2nd-phase.pdf

[HOODED]

Aviogenex flew 134s.

Was the runway extension built when you thought JAT flew 707s. Yugoslavia holidays seem such a long time ago before the war.

Yes they did operate 707s from LBA and yes it was after the runway extension. Don't remember any Tu134s on the route though we did see an Interflug example.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Up until November 1st, British Airways is running what seems to be a crazy offer on just the LBA and NEW domestics to LHR. Make one adult reservation, point-to-point, and up to three children, up to the age of 11, can fly with you absolutely free.

Can't ever remember an offer from BA so generous or desperate to fill the aircraft, depending upon how you regard the offer.

i think posting the link would breach site rules, but googling British Airways Kids Fly For Free should take you there.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

I'm sure all the suited-and-booted premium business travellers will just love their journey aboard the flying creche!

[GrahamK]

Or, if we're being less cynical, a clever ploy by BA to try and attract families away from the trains. Improved trains on the West Coast have already destroyed MAN-London flights, and they may now be trying to protect their market share on the East Coast before that disappears as well.

[Mr Mac]

Graham K
I think you will find that most people would be connecting on those services, (it was what they were set up for, and is used as the reason a certain extra bit of runway is needed in the south).Travelling to central London from NW or NE is generally quicker by train.


Cheers
Mr Mac

[virginblue]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but is anybody in the know if the Britannia Airport Hotel offers a shuttle service? There is conflicting information on various booking sites (some say nothing at all, others mention a taxi, other a shuttle for 6 GBP). The hotel website itself is useless and their contact form does not work...

[ericlday]

Ring them and ask !!
0871 221 0191

[virginblue]

Thanks, but not always practical or cost-effective depending on where one is based at the moment, hence my asking. I have now taken my business elsewhere, given their lack of information and email contact.

[BAladdy]

Looks like Leeds is set to be the home of a new airline called ExtraJet, due to be launched in 1Q2016.

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/566079-extrajet.html#post9080624

[LBIA]

Let's hope Extrajet get off the ground in the new year and make these 2 routes to Antwerp and Copenhagen work from Leeds-Bradford.
Be interesting to know if bmi regional have got 2x spare Embraer 135 aircraft in it's fleet to supply this lease agreement, and if so will it mean ex LBA based bmi crews returning home?

There are also rumours floating about that flybe may be about to/or have signed a deal to base 2x of its aircraft at LBA next year operating a few new routes, just waiting for something official to be announced if it's true?

[LAX_LHR]

I wish flybe would sort itself out before opening more bases.

It seems to be reverting to the troublesome times when it had a myriad of bases and poor performance issues.

It closed several bases, ended tens of routes and told the world of its 're-focusing' the business.

Since then, LCY, BOH and CWL have opened as bases, their OTP has been atrocious this last month and have had to hire in several aircraft, including bmi regional E135's, VLM F50's and Air Europa ATR's.

And now, it wants to open a Leeds base despite barely being able to cover their full programme this year.

History is definitely repeating.........

[BAladdy]

Let's hope Extrajet get off the ground in the new year and make these 2 routes to Antwerp and Copenhagen work from Leeds-Bradford.
Be interesting to know if bmi regional have got 2x spare Embraer 135 aircraft in it's fleet to supply this lease agreement, and if so will it mean ex LBA based bmi crews returning home?

BM currently have a ER3's based at ABZ, EMA, MUC and NCL. BM could lease another couple of ER3's or they could once again base a ER4 at NCL and a 3rd ER4 at MUC to free up two of there existing ER3's.

I am wondering though why ANR and CPH as the airlines first new routes, is there a lot businesses with offices in and around the LBA that have offices in the ANR and CPH area?.

[ATNotts]

Looks like Leeds is set to be the home of a new airline called ExtraJet, due to be launched in 1Q2016.

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/566079-extrajet.html#post9080624

Anyone remember Duo at BHX? This has echos of that kind of operation, which as I recall, failed to get enough business passengers on routes that are far more viable than LBA-ANR.

[rpmac]

I wondered that too but maybe, as there is no LBA-BRU route at the moment serving Antwerp, which is not far from Brussels it might be quite viable. Of course if Brussels Airlines start BRU-LBA then that's another matter.

[ATNotts]

I wondered that too but maybe, as there is no LBA-BRU route at the moment serving Antwerp, which is not far from Brussels it might be quite viable. Of course if Brussels Airlines start BRU-LBA then that's another matter.

That being the case, why not operate to BRU - it would surely offer a better chance of success?

[rpmac]

Well Antwerp may offer a good deal, cheaper landing charges and suitable landing slots, and there may be a market to the north of Antwerp that could be tapped into, plus they plan a CPH connection too from Antwerp.

[anothertyke]

It seems a bit of a strange one when BMR couldn't make a go of a 135 twice a day from Leeds to Brussels. I just checked out the Antwerp airport website--120,000 passengers a year.

[N707ZS]

P68 passenger jet!


Passenger jet misses microlight by 15 metres - seconds after avoiding light aircraft (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/13593583.Passenger_jet_misses_microlight_by_15_metres___seco nds_after_avoiding_light_aircraft/)

[LTNman]

Vueling summer 2016 season

eff 28MAR16 Barcelona – Leeds/Bradford 2 weekly
VY8794 BCN0700 – 0835LBA 320 15
VY8795 LBA0915 – 1235BCN 320 15

[LBIA]

Well what a surprise Balkan Holidays Air Airbus A330-200, LZ-AWA has just landed on a wet Runway 14 operating the weekly BGH5569/5560 charter service from Bourgas instead of the normal Airbus A320.

[Runway 32/14]

Do you know if its here for the rest of the year, if i had known i would have been up to LBA this morning:ok:

[Runway 32/14]

Do you know if its here for the rest of the year, if i had known i would have been up to LBA this morning :ok:

[LBIA]

Sadly no the A330-200 visit today was just a late replacement due shortage as BH Air have 2x of their own A320's out of service for maintenance reasons.

[Runway 32/14]

That is such a shame, its unfortunate that we don't have a few more larger aircraft at LBA

[LBIA]

Good to see local ITV News reporting that Leeds Bradford Airport recorded its busiest ever month in August 2015 as over 400k passengers travelled through the airport for the first time.

Record month for Leeds Bradford Airport | Calendar - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/update/2015-09-17/record-month-for-leeds-bradford-airport/)

And here's the official announcement

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/media/1930/lba-record-passenger-numbers.pdf

[anothertyke]

Link Road consultation announced today. Three route options. Budget £38 million, aiming for completion by 2021.

[LBIA]

Looks like Air Europa are returning to Leeds next summer 2016 season operating a weekly charter to Palma-Majorca for Thomson Holidays.

The service will run Friday mornings for a 4 month period commencing from June 3rd and running until September 30th using Boeing 737-800's.

AEA337 = Palma: 07:45 – Leeds: 09:30
AEA338 = Leeds: 10:20 – Palma: 14:00

[FLYAIR10]

It seems Extrajet just launched a 'temporary' website ,confirming their intention to offer flights from LBA to ANR and CPH and from ANR to CPH.

Extrajet (http://info-james.wix.com/extrajet)

[LBIA]

Leeds Bradford Airport will feature in tonight's 18:30 "Look North News" and the "Inside Out" programme at 19:30s both on BBC1 (Yorkshire)
A BBC Look North reporter claims wheelchair passengers can pass through airport security with prohibited items including a knifes, spanners and other types of pocket tools which were all hid under his seat, the whole incident had been recorded using undercover cameras.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06h86jb/inside-out-yorkshire-and-lincolnshire-12102015

[LBIA]

With flybe withdrawing there 3x daily Dash 8-Q400 operated Leeds - Southampton route at end of next week again, I see that Eastern Airways are going to increase capacity on its service from the current 4x daily Jetstream 41 to using the Saab 2000 from November 2nd

[LBIA]

Leeds City Council have announced that Public Consultation will begin later this month regarding the proposed Airport road link improvements. They will be 3 options to chose from.

Link road plans for Leeds Bradford Airport will cost £75m - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-34803734)

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/assets/_files/cached/img/620x493/sep_15/businessdesk__1443594129_Airport_road_map.jpg?access=3654T32 43T840

[Runway 32/14]

you would think that a rail link would/should be built at the same time!! all this if it even happens is 20 years to late!!:sad:

[anothertyke]

you would think that a rail link would/should be built at the same time!! all this if it even happens is 20 years to late!!:sad:

What makes you say that? Do you think 3 miles of road by-passing a couple of junctions at Rawdon and Yeadon would have made a fundamental difference to the airport's routes and traffic? I think it's useful at the margin having sat in the traffic queues all the way down Kirkstall Road (both car and bus).

As for rail, it's an absolute non-starter, sorry Stuart Andrew MP. The Atkins Report shows what the capital and net operating costs would be. You'd be lucky to get 1000 a day on the train up there ; the operating ratio would be less than 10% and that's without the capital.

The airport is a very useful asset to the region but perspective is required when it comes to public money. Of course if the owners wished to buy and run a railway, that might be different, but somehow I think they will pass on that attractive possibility.

[Runway 32/14]

The Atkins report means nothing! those figures are based on what!! certainly not facts! they are made up to show a negative impact! so they can justify not spending money in the North!! If this was a London regional airport they would justify spending billions to cater for 1000 passengers wouldn't they!!

[Runway 32/14]

Going underground on the way to Leeds Bradford Airport? - Yorkshire Evening Post (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/going-underground-on-the-way-to-leeds-bradford-airport-1-7577484)

[Andy_S]

The Atkins report means nothing! those figures are based on what!! certainly not facts! they are made up to show a negative impact! so they can justify not spending money in the North!! If this was a London regional airport they would justify spending billions to cater for 1000 passengers wouldn't they!!

Why does it mean "nothing"? You don't like it's conclusions, so you dismiss it as a conspiracy theory??

The whole issue of a rail link to LBA was beaten to death on this very forum about a year ago. Apart from a couple of hardcore LBA fanatics, it was generally accepted that the extra footfall through the airport would be too limited to justify the significant construction costs.

Money is tight nowadays, and vanity projects are quite rightly well down the priority list.

[airforced]

I'm not sure what the Atkins Report says and don't intend to read it either.

As has been already said a new road, as proposed, won't do anything of significance to increase airport numbers or growth there. It certainly won't be of any assistance either to those of us who travel to LBA from the east of the region from what I can see.

This talk of new roads and rail links does nothing to solve the enduring problems associated with the airport, viz inadequate airside infrastructure. I have given up on LBA ever becoming a year round airport with a viable variety of routes which would lead to a significant increase in passenger numbers.

New road or rail link? Don't waste tax payers money.

[anothertyke]

I think that's a bit harsh. It's a useful regional airport in the Championship division with East Midlands, Liverpool, Bristol etc. Ten years ago no-one would have dreamed of the range of destinations on offer now. And from a precarious position seven years ago we have connections to the world through AMS,LHR and DUB as well as half decent surface access to MAN. I realise that is well short of some people's aspirations but I think the combination is OK.

Re the road, it will be interesting to see the traffic model. I should guess the only beneficiaries will be in a relatively small cheese wedge quadrant from the SW Leeds outer ring road to the A65, and then by only 5 to 10 mins. It will be interesting to see how the numbers square up. I don't see much in it for anyone outside that limited quadrant, I may be wrong.

[HOODED]

I think that's a bit harsh. It's a useful regional airport in the Championship division with

Re the road, it will be interesting to see the traffic model. I should guess the only beneficiaries will be in a relatively small cheese wedge quadrant from the SW Leeds outer ring road to the A65, and then by only 5 to 10 mins. It will be interesting to see how the numbers square up. I don't see much in it for anyone outside that limited quadrant, I may be wrong.

Which is exactly why it will never happen.

[LBIA]

Even though flybe have recently just announced its Doncaster - Newquay route starting next summer 2016 it's looking like the airlines proposed Leeds/Bradford - Newquay route could also possibly happening as it's been reported in the local press down in Cornwall and in Yorkshire today.

New Newquay to Leeds Bradford air route for Spring 2016 | Cornish Guardian (http://www.cornishguardian.co.uk/New-Newquay-Leeds-Bradford-air-route-Spring-2016/story-28286470-detail/story.html)

http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/728923-newquay-route-to-be-introduced-from-leeds-bradford-airport.html?news_section=10966

Also heard that we might get something official about Aurigny's proposed Guernsey service very shortly seen as they have now got the route licence approval along with a possible new route to Cork by Aer Lingus.
Its all gone quite about the new Jetextra set up and its proposed Copenhagen and Antwerp services..

[ryan2000]

Cork Leeds Bradford now confirmed by Aerlingus Regional. 3 times per week.

[LBIA]

Press Release from Leeds/Bradford Airport today states that Ryanair are on course to carry 1 million passengers throughout next year with the announcement of its summer 2016 schedule.

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/media/2099/08122015.pdf

[LBIA]

Just been announced that KLM are adding extra 4th daily weekday Leeds/Bradford - Amsterdam service commencing from the start of the summer 2016 schedule.

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/media/2102/klm-ams-e190-growth-s16-press-release.pdf

[LBIA]

Understand the will be another new route announced tomorrow.

[cornishsimon]

Flybe dos secure funding to launch (relaunch) NQY-LBA but nothing as yet been announced. So perhaps tomorrow might be the day ?


cs

[LBIA]

Aurigny have just announced a new year round service between Leeds/Bradford and Guernsey. The route will commence operation on Friday May 27th with flights expected to be operated by ATR42 aircraft.

Summer 4x weekly = Monday, Wednesday, Friday & Saturday
Winter 2x weekly = Monday, Friday
GR664 = GCI: 12:00 – LBA: 13:40
GR665 = LBA: 14:10 – GCI: 16:00

https://www.airport.gg/news/article/aurigny-launch-new-service-leeds-bradford-airport

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Misty morning - Shuttle 20A after a long time in the hold at FL80 with RVR around 300m for Rwy14, diverts back to LHR. Within 10 minutes or so of it heading south, the RVR lifts to around 1,000m. There must be a reason for LHR being used as a distant alternate, when there are BA Shuttle ops into MCR. Must be very frustrating for those passengers trying to get to Leeds...

Why is this clear 'DIVERSION' - Not on the CAA diversion stats? Creative accounting? I wonder how many more have been missed off? Perhaps taking off from LHR flying up to LBA and holding for an hour before going back to LHR with the same passengers is classed as a cancelled flight!?

Hide it! Hide it! Hide it!

[GeorgEGNT]

BA departs LHR bound for LBA as scheduled. LBA RVRs are below limits so they hold.

The rotation is already behind schedule and if the aircraft was to get down it would perhaps suffer further delays on departure due to LVPs. Additionally, it may pick up a slot for a number of reasons, LHR is very busy after all.
The aircraft will have further rotations to complete that day plus there are two further LBA-LHR rotations that day. All with slots out out of/ in to LHR.

Therefore in my mind, the sensible option from BA ops point of view is to return the aircraft to LHR and maintain the OTP for the rest of that aircraft's schedule. After all, the A320fam fleet at BA doesn't seem to yield much in the way of flexibility.

It's not good for pax but the reality is they will be transferred onto other flights or accept other means of travel (mostly without a grumble).

[ricardoat4]

Has this thread died?

[cornishsimon]

Is there anything new to report ?


cs

[airforced]

Everyone is eagerly awaiting the publication of the Masterplan from Bidgepoint! Maybe this is the reason for the lull.

It is due anytime soon I believe but whether it will say anything, when it is eventually published, is anyone's guess. We live in hope if not expectation.

[Runway 32/14]

I have been living with great expectations for 50 years! i still get frustrated and fed up with with the lack of investment and development of Leeds/Bradford Airport... :ugh:

[LBIA]

We might hear something about the long awaited LeedsBradford Airport Masterplan within the next few days as I understand there has been a extraordinary meeting of the "Airports Consultative Committee" called for tomorrow, February 23rd.
The purpose of which is to go through the Masterplan and Surface Access Strategy before its released for public consultation.

[Runway 32/14]

still no news from the master plan!! any news at all in regards to LBA would be welcome

[Runway 32/14]

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/media/2173/locations-for-consultation-and-dates.pdf

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Just had a quick look at the 2011 masterplan. Side splittingly funny! "Aren't we doing well for our region!?" GVA etc etc - Er not compared to every other region. Not a single set date for any infrastructure development. Even the last masterplan had dates - although to be fair they didn't mean anything.

LBIA - Leeds Bradford Indicative Airport

In 2009 we were told 5 million passengers by 2012/13 and now we are told we will build when it gets busy. Very proactive.

It all fits with what the local politicians said two years ago and will certainly placate the local spotters for 3 more years. It's all part of the masterplan. You can fool some of the people all of the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time but LBA will always have a 6400 ft crosswind runway on a tight 675ft AMSL hill top!

"A new airport might not be needed for decades." [18 years to go]

[Runway 32/14]

Leeds Bradford Airport wish-list includes new train line and station - Yorkshire Evening Post (http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/latest-news/top-stories/leeds-bradford-airport-wish-list-includes-new-train-line-and-station-1-7770889)

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Quote from the Masterplan

"However, LBA currently captures only 32% of the short haul demand and 4% of the long haul demand generated by Yorkshire and the Humber region. This illustrates the potential for growth that could be achieved by meeting the travel needs that arise in this region alone."

Or to put it another way - why have we been failing for 40 years?

No what this illustrates perfectly is that there are fundamental issue(s) that are stopping LBA from realising the potential [to satisfy air travel demand] that exists within Yorkshire and Humberside over many years. That issue is (location allied to accessibility [all modes]) and (airfield characteristics allied to elevation and associated weather). The only way to realise this potential is to relocate.

[SWBKCB]

That didn't take long, did it?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Do you spend multiple £Millions on extending a very problematic short restricted runway that points completely in the wrong direction at 700ft AMSL in frequent poor weather? - No, of course not. You might if the airport was in the perfect geographic location to control its catchment (such as Birmingham). LBIA does not control its catchment because of the M62/M1 and Trans Pennine Express fast railway that dissect even the Leeds City Region and go directly to competition airports. The gigantic Yorkshire and Humberside catchment is divided up and so LBA's affected population catchment is actually not that big. Therefore there would not be sufficient demand for the majority of longhaul flights that would require an extended runway that most certainly would be viable from a better located and accessible airport within Yorkshire and Humberside. It's called a Double Wammy. Yes 787s and A350s could marginally operate out of LBA but no airline will go anywhere near that risk - because of the Double Wammy; Terrible catchment reducing location/accessibility and extremely restricted runway/airfield operation. So of course the owners say we can manage as we are - But Where are those flights? You can work on an airport if maybe 1 thing is lacking like Birmingham did with their runway (and now look) but you cannot work on correcting an airport if virtually everything is so far from ideal. Simple economics. The same is true for an awful lot of other flights from LBA - not just longhaul. You don't need many diversions, holding, cancellations, missed approaches, delays to turn profit into loss as an airline. When the deals are all done and dusted you need an airport that is perfectly located and accessible to control the catchment and equally as important can handle all aircraft types efficiently and economically to destinations that are viable from that catchment.

[HOODED]

Oh boy here we go again. Leeds Approach with the move to Leeds East. Interesting how LBA has lost 1000ft of runway since I last looked and has somehow gained in height above sea level. Never mind as we have loads of spare cash we can develop Church Fenton and shut LBA as there's no point in having a non ideal airport with a short runway (CF is shorter) right between two large conurbations.Luton springs to mind...

[pug]

Yet most airlines consistently choose LBA over other airports in the region, so the poor weather record some seem intent on holding onto is null and void.

The runway doesn't need extending as there isn't the demand to do so, simply because MAN swallows up most of the North. The 'massive' Yorkshire and Humber catchment area isn't actually that massive, it generates less than 10 million air passengers per year. Those are already catered for at neighbouring airports, and the leakage to bigger airports will never be plugged, even with a modern, well equipped purpose built facility. Politically that would never happen anyway, wity the Leeds City Region being well within a 40 mile radius of DSA.

What Bridgepoint have released is a realistic appraisal of where the airport is heading. Should demand require further expansion then it will happen. There is no conspiracy, just realistic expectations for growth over the coming few years.

[Helen49]

Me thinks that 6400ft refers to the 'useable' distances rather than the length of the concrete!

Declared distances for take-off, landing, emergency etc often bear little resemblance to the physical dimensions of a runway. Granted the runway 14 Take off distance [as opposed to the Take-off run] far exceeds 6400ft, but its about right for the remainder of the LBA declared distances.

Perhaps the 700ft airfield elevation is a euphemism for a long way up [especially when the cloud base is down at Pool]!

H49

[Runway 32/14]

Leeds Bradford Airport wants road and rail links : Leeds Bradford Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/leeds-bradford-airport-news-221105.htm)

[Runway 32/14]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hAhNSVzRZE

[anothertyke]

Leeds Bradford Airport wants road and rail links : Leeds Bradford Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/leeds-bradford-airport-news-221105.htm)

Well we need to wait and see what the consultation brings but LBA saying they want road and rail links is a bit like Leeds and Bradford City Councils saying they want a new taxiway at the southern end and a new terminal building. It's easy to call for things you don't have to pay for.

[HOODED]

Well we need to wait and see what the consultation brings but LBA saying they want road and rail links is a bit like Leeds and Bradford City Councils saying they want a new taxiway at the southern end and a new terminal building. It's easy to call for things you don't have to pay for.

Forgive me but wasn't it part of the agreement when the council's sold the airport to Bridgepoint that part of the money they received from the sale would be used to improve access to the airport?

[paully]

Hooded

I`m sure you are right and probably the Council did intend that at the time.However there have been important (for them) elections to fight and so the temptation to waste the money on `more important projects`is usually what wins the day. Or have I misunderstood how Councils work for all these years?

[Runway 32/14]

Well we need to wait and see what the consultation brings but LBA saying they want road and rail links is a bit like Leeds and Bradford City Councils saying they want a new taxiway at the southern end and a new terminal building. It's easy to call for things you don't have to pay for.

LOL the point to this article was the date! it was posted in November 2005 :E

[Runway 32/14]

Leeds Bradford Airport named best in UK for on-time flights (From ) (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/14326011.Leeds_Bradford_Airport_named_best_in_UK_for_on_time _flights/)

[Runway 32/14]

Colin Speakman: How the train can take the strain to Leeds Bradford Airport - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/colin-speakman-how-the-train-can-take-the-strain-to-leeds-bradford-airport-1-7783314)

[LEEDS APPROACH]

The masterplan is really coming on now! First a pub and now a filling station! I can almost smell those Dreamliners and 777s.

The masterplan is just exactly as I predicted and is an excellent 'piece of work'. Just like the last masterplan (2005) it is indicative only (aviation) [not the filling station and not the housing estate and not the bypass and not the industrial estate] and date vague. Certainly some of the shown new apron will be built but not all of what is shown. When 2019 comes along then it will be the usual "well it was only indicative!" Just like the spotters said about the last masterplan that was not fulfilled. It will continue LBA airport growth for the next 14 years just as it has to continue but without the poor value for money big spend (on this site). I would estimate 4.2/4.3 million passengers by 2020 and in the region of 5 million by 2030. Winter will be fun!! Meanwhile elsewhere. Such a shame though that as a region in this interim period we are missing out on the flights that are required and viable and offered by other more suitable and functioning airports.

[LBIA]

Flybe have announced that they are adding a 5th daily flight on its Belfast City to Leeds/Bradford service commencing from July 4th.

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/media/2202/07042016.pdf

[LBIA]

Understand Flybe to announce a new route from Leeds/Bradford to Newquay sometime today.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

'New' route for 2017 from LBA to Faro with Thomson. Adding to frequent flights by FR, LS and ZB. Connecting Yorkshire with the world. It's just a massive failure to realise potential caused by incorrect location.

[A300BOY]

'New' route for 2017 from LBA to Faro with Thomson. Adding to frequent flights by FR, LS and ZB. Connecting Yorkshire with the world. It's just a massive failure to realise potential caused by incorrect location.

The location of Leeds Airport works for me ! I can walk to my light aircraft, watch all the departures and arrivals from my conservatory and costs it me £3 for a cab to the terminal and whilst it is on a hill if we get the landing distances sorted the foggy days would be less of a problem leaving us with an un fixable windy day problem only.

[tubby linton]

The problem on 14 is the glidepath angle is too steep for an autoland and the odd radalt characteristics on the approach don't help either.

[Seljuk22]

FR announced winter schedule some weeks ago
Welcome to Ryanair! (http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/news/160330-ryanair-launches-record-leeds-bradford-winter-2016-schedule/?market=en)

[Runway 32/14]

LBIA will soon be swallowed up by our neighbours at Doncaster Robin Hood!! thats if this article in the Yorkshire Post is anything to go by!!
The view from Steel City: The saga of one airport?s road to prosperity - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/transport/the-view-from-steel-city-the-saga-of-one-airport-s-road-to-prosperity-1-7892626)

[Bagso]

1.3m from a standing start is pretty good !

I don't know the local politics but long term I reckon this is a good shout!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

1.3m from a standing start is pretty good !

I don't know the local politics but long term I reckon this is a good shout!
Yes it would be good if it was true! DSA is sub 1 million passengers. Any airport can have millions of passengers selling unsustainable tickets for £20 odd quid and then they drop like a stone (and vice versa). It is what happened at DSA years ago and has happened at many many airports. Prestwick, Girona, Liverpool, Teesside etc etc etc Short term passenger throughput tells very little these days. Cardiff another airport with little catchment that is rocketing up - ridiculous.

Certainly though the people within Leeds City Region knew they had to act (DSA has much better aerodrome characteristics)- and they have. It will take a while though and so LBA will be shoe horned up to 5.5 milion. Talking about a parkway station for LBA stops everyone (mostly clueless local politicians with a vested interest) chuntering on about building a nonsensical rail link while the essential bypass gets built that increases the value of the land and makes it residential usable. But where are the plans for a parkway station? They do not exist and never will - the matter has only just been completely ruled out. It serves a purpose that's all.

If 2 pitts specials wrote in the air to the local plane spotters what was really going on they still wouldn't get it!

Between 15 and 25 years I believe the Yeadon site will be a housing estate with associated industrial estate. I don't believe DSA will be the replacement. RYR came and went. EZY came and went. Will BE fill 100+ seats to Berlin everyday from Donny and Lincs when there is flights 30 minutes down the motorway? It's not rocket science. Catchment Catchment Catchment.

I would love DSA to be thee airport for Yorkshire but I just don't think it will be. It's too far away from Leeds City region. 11 years and what have we got - Flybe daily to Berlin with planes they don't really want. Thank goodness for Wizz eh!

[G-FORZ]

The catchment argument is very flawed. A short journey to the airport will influence, but price and availability will prevail. Yorkshire people will happily travel to BHX, NCL, LPL, EMA & MAN if the price is right, and chosen flight destination is available on their preferred date of departure. If the three airlines providing the destinations and availability at LBA chose to move to DSA, LBA would have less passengers than DSA. Airport incentives to the airlines will dictate which will sustain existing services or promote further growth.

[pug]

G-FORZ, I fail to see how catchment area is irrelevant. The reason LBA is relatively successful is due to the large population on its doorstep. That is also the reason why the airports you mention can offer cheaper seats, as they have access to large markets so they can be flooded with seats with a better yield. If you believe that other airports haven't tried to 'poach' the incumbents at LBA by offering incentives then you will be mistaken.

Airports can offer all kinds of incentives, but it's up to the public to use the services, or they'll be gone. It's that simple.

Where I completely disagree with Leeds Approach is the constant argument for a new Yorkshire airport, and closure of the others. This simply will not happen, and it's up to the punters to vote with their feet.

I feel LBA will always be ahead of the game in Yorkshire, perceived accessibility issues, and poor weather record considered. It's got to be where the money's at. Access to DSA has vastly improved, but then it is fighting with MAN LBA and EMA for passengers, is it really a viable alternative for the high volume carriers? Those places serve far larger - and generally wealthier - immediate populations...

[LEEDS APPROACH]

G-FORZ, I fail to see how catchment area is irrelevant. The reason LBA is relatively successful is due to the large population on its doorstep. That is also the reason why the airports you mention can offer cheaper seats, as they have access to large markets so they can be flooded with seats with a better yield. If you believe that other airports haven't tried to 'poach' the incumbents at LBA by offering incentives then you will be mistaken.

Airports can offer all kinds of incentives, but it's up to the public to use the services, or they'll be gone. It's that simple.

Where I completely disagree with Leeds Approach is the constant argument for a new Yorkshire airport, and closure of the others. This simply will not happen, and it's up to the punters to vote with their feet.

I feel LBA will always be ahead of the game in Yorkshire, perceived accessibility issues, and poor weather record considered. It's got to be where the money's at. Access to DSA has vastly improved, but then it is fighting with MAN LBA and EMA for passengers, is it really a viable alternative for the high volume carriers? Those places serve far larger - and generally wealthier - immediate populations...
Wow pug - have you had a bang on the head!? Great post.

Distance catchment population and time/ease catchment population between passenger moving airports are finite figures just like the population of South Yorkshire or the Isle of Wight for example. They are critical important figures when it comes to air travel.

I am not arguing for the closure of airports (just as NCL is not arguing for the closure of MME). Put the 3 airports in a long race and take away political/rival handicap and you will see which one is the most suitable (all aspects) airport. Of course one airport may be involved with another airport?

We need an airport that is making money - not two airports that are paying passengers to fly. Sustainability.

[snowman 1]

leeds approach

i would love to know the 2 airports that pay passengers to fly from?? i use both LBA and doncaster and no one has paid me anything.:{
p.s.
i have no problem as a passenger with either airport.
sm1

[Seljuk22]

jet2 to start Berlin from 25th November
Berlin is Back! | Jet2.com (http://www.jet2.com/News/Berlin_is_Back/)

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I think it would be fitting for someone in office to apologise to Thomson and their customers for them having to operate (multiple flights) from another airport to the one they chose to fly from. I would like to apologise to Thomson who have repeatedly given the airport a chance.

As a proud Leeds originating inhabitant I find what the region offers in terms of modern, efficient and sensible 21st century civil air transport needlessly deficient and quite frankly embarrassing. Nobody expects perfection but can we not aim just a little bit closer to sensible?

[paully]

Jet2 seem to like the place :ok:

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Jet2 seem to like the place :ok:
Yes well some of Jet2's customers will not be that happy having to trek back from another airport miles away in thick hill fog well after midnight after long journeys from Spain.

Jet2 do like the place but I'm sure they'd like an alternative that can actually stay open in mid Summer for their planes to land.

It's amazing that some of the local spotters criticise Thomson! A 4 hour + heavily delayed flight through the night with tired passengers all the way from Rhodes that was delayed because the previous LBA flight from Greece was also diverted to MAN in the night in yes you've guessed it - low cloud. 25 minutes of holding at LBA in the early morning with no chance of thick low cloud lifting and then they get criticised for their 'operational decisions'! But then they cannot understand why they don't base another plane at LBA!

[paully]

As you well know, Thomsons for some reason regularly divert to MAN when it suits them and its often convenient to blame Leeds weather. The event you are alluding to has a bit of a hole in Thomson`s (and yours) argument. The aircraft ahead and the one behind it managed to land there without problem. The question you could pose is why did Thomsons inconvenience their passengers and not for the first time..

[LEEDS APPROACH]

3 successive days of aircraft diversions in mid June - not mid January! You wont hear the local lib dem MP talk about this though, just that he wants a train line building up the hill to add an extra 2 million passengers to an airport on a tiny hill top that cannot handle modern aircraft due to its tiny runway and fog in the middle of Summer!

The only airport that has markings for 777s and yet none has actually landed! When were they built again? Don't worry though because the Dreamliner can operate from LBA when it gets built - what's that I here? It's already built and been flying for years!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

As you well know, Thomsons for some reason regularly divert to MAN when it suits them and its often convenient to blame Leeds weather. The event you are alluding to has a bit of a hole in Thomson`s (and yours) argument. The aircraft ahead and the one behind it managed to land there without problem. The question you could pose is why did Thomsons inconvenience their passengers and not for the first time..
When you understand the reasons (which you probably never will) then you will understand why some aircraft will be able to land and some will not - just as the 3 LS aircraft diverted the night before. Perhaps he wasn't willing to ar$ around at a ridiculous airport with reduced fuel just like LS the night before and BE the morning after.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

What you will find is that ALL airlines do things 'that suits them' - its how they make some money. The more things they can do that suits them the more money they will make. One of the main things that really really suits airlines is being able to land because the airport has not been built on a hill top.

[SWBKCB]

What you will find is that ALL airlines do things 'that suits them'

Like continuing to operate from Leeds, despite the odd weather issue?

[brian_dromey]

Most likely that the Thomson aircraft & crew combination were not certified for the approach required and the following aircraft was. There may also me differences in minima, which allowed the following aircraft to land.

It's not a conspiracy. It's not operationally easier to have aircraft on one side of the Pennines and passengers on the other. It's costly for the airline, to shuffle aircraft, passengers and crew around. The captain made a call that he/she couldn't safely get into LBA on that occasion, or was limited by minima. It happens at every airport, everywhere. The only airline that never diverted is the airline that never flew.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Nobody is saying it is a conspiracy. It is a failure. It is something that can be improved. Yes it happens at all airports but it happens at LBA much more frequently than those airports and unlike some regions we can change that for the better. You are wrong it is operationally easier to have aircraft on one side of the Pennines because that airport works more efficiently and is not built on a 700ft hilltop with a short runway.

Yes airlines will continue to operate from LBA but these events reduce the profitability and that is exactly why some routes end prematurely and many are never started. It also affects the fare price and hence the demand.

In any walk of life you try to improve. I don't want Yorkshire air transport to be near the bottom of the league I want it to be pushing the top of the league.

If and when your flight to Cork has to divert that costs money and somebody has to pay (either directly or indirectly). Guess who it is? So when you're choosing which flight to take you may very well chose the airport with the cheaper fare.

[SWBKCB]

Here we go again

I don't want Yorkshire air transport to be near the bottom of the league I want it to be pushing the top of the league

How are you going to manage that? Let me guess, build a new airport in a better location maybe? How do you pay for that? Because...

...that costs money and somebody has to pay (either directly or indirectly). Guess who it is?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Like continuing to operate from Leeds, despite the odd weather issue?
The problem with this statement is you are not measuring against anything. Yes LS are big at Leeds but how much bigger would they be with a bigger catchment, more accessible airport, longer runway and better weather. Efficiency drives down cost. Guess who saves?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Here we go again



How are you going to manage that? Let me guess, build a new airport in a better location maybe? How do you pay for that? Because...
I certainly don't mind paying my taxes if it goes toward any project that will benefit 9 million people in the North East and Yorkshire in the long term. I'm a bit miffed that taxes were spent on a runway extension where half of it cannot be used for landing. A private project though at this stage so all 9 million of us can smile. It will transform the North East.

It's a good point though - somebody has to pay! You either pay the extra fare price for the fewer and less frequently flown routes from a less than ideal airport / or you pay to travel to an airport that maximises efficiency through location and airfield characteristics or you pay to have that latter airport slowly developed in your own region through taxes. Whichever option the public pays. But with the latter option you are investing in your own region and get immediate payback. Nobody pays me back for travelling to Manchester and parking for a simple flight to Florida - that is the definition of flight tax.

[SWBKCB]

Paid for through taxes? So you want to pay for a new facility with public money to compete with existing private operations? Are you a lawyer??

If it is a private project how will it be paid for? Increased charges to airlines? They may save a bit through efficiency gains from fewer diversions, but I would have thought not enough to cover the extra charges required.

Surely the cost of paying for a new airport will...

....reduce the profitability and that is exactly why some routes end prematurely and many are never started. It also affects the fare price and hence the demand.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Remember this is LBA thread. Taxes for the roads, piggy bank for the airport - just like NCL etc. At last no more journeys to Edinburgh and Manchester for us North Easterners.

And now back to 208M AMSL.

[brian_dromey]

I accept the point that LBA has many physical limitations, both the airfield and the terminal building are sub-optimal. I accept that the region shouldn't be settling for sub-optimal, but the decision to move to Leeds East cant be seen in isolation. Leeds East is not well located for the West Yorkshire region as a whole (its too far east for Huddersfied, Halifax and Bradford - risking leakage to MAN), the weather isn't a lot better, the runway is short, has no ILS capability and there no surface links (but installation would be relatively easy). Essentially, LEA would be a brand new airport - which could be sorted out IF the airport weren't privatised, or LEA were owned by Bridgepoint, IF the government weren't hellbent on underfunding all infrastructure and public service in the country and IF you ignore the 25 million passenger a year neighbour, well connected to the region by road and rail, with services across the UK, Europe, massive growth to North America and now Asia. MAN is about to commence its own transformation project which will make it even more attractive to airlines and passengers.

I don't get your point about ORK. ORK is also an airfield with similar typography, weather and crosswind problems. Even worse its a Cat II airfield, with little hope of ever becoming Cat III due to the typography. ORK feels similarly hamstrung by limitations around the airfield, runway sruface and length. So, although the terminal is far superior to LBA, the airfield itself still has its share of issues and there are numerous diversions to Shannon and Dublin each year - winter and summer. Yes, there is a risk that "my" LBA-ORK may become MAN-SNN on a given day.

LBA and ORK are similar in many ways, both have heavyweight neighbours. Both have to accept their role is supportive, allowing major markets to access the regions by air, with smaller aircraft, less frequently. They also allow the region to reach popular destinations, often the "bucket and spade" market. As bad as things may appear, there are neighbors who are worse off. Waterford and HUY spring to mind.

[HOODED]

Leeds Approach. You keep banging on about LBA short runway."a runway extension only half of which can be used for landing"
You do realise that in general aircraft need much less runway to land than to take off I assume? 5900ft is suffice for most aircraft. As for Thompson they seem to have higher minimas than say Jet2 and Ryanair whilst using the same aircraft. That is not LBAs fault there is a CAT3 ILS though only CAT1 on 14. You constantly belittle LBA for being on a hill. Have you ever looked at LTN or BRS? They seem to do ok as does LBA. Why dont you just stump up the Millions needed to upgrade Leeds East and make its runway as long as LBA then maybe see if you can move the main conurbations in Yorkshire a little closer....

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I accept the point that LBA has many physical limitations, both the airfield and the terminal building are sub-optimal. I accept that the region shouldn't be settling for sub-optimal, but the decision to move to Leeds East cant be seen in isolation. Leeds East is not well located for the West Yorkshire region as a whole (its too far east for Huddersfied, Halifax and Bradford - risking leakage to MAN), the weather isn't a lot better, the runway is short, has no ILS capability and there no surface links (but installation would be relatively easy). Essentially, LEA would be a brand new airport - which could be sorted out IF the airport weren't privatised, or LEA were owned by Bridgepoint, IF the government weren't hellbent on underfunding all infrastructure and public service in the country and IF you ignore the 25 million passenger a year neighbour, well connected to the region by road and rail, with services across the UK, Europe, massive growth to North America and now Asia. MAN is about to commence its own transformation project which will make it even more attractive to airlines and passengers.

I don't get your point about ORK. ORK is also an airfield with similar typography, weather and crosswind problems. Even worse its a Cat II airfield, with little hope of ever becoming Cat III due to the typography. ORK feels similarly hamstrung by limitations around the airfield, runway sruface and length. So, although the terminal is far superior to LBA, the airfield itself still has its share of issues and there are numerous diversions to Shannon and Dublin each year - winter and summer. Yes, there is a risk that "my" LBA-ORK may become MAN-SNN on a given day.

LBA and ORK are similar in many ways, both have heavyweight neighbours. Both have to accept their role is supportive, allowing major markets to access the regions by air, with smaller aircraft, less frequently. They also allow the region to reach popular destinations, often the "bucket and spade" market. As bad as things may appear, there are neighbors who are worse off. Waterford and HUY spring to mind.

LEA is well located for not just West Yorkshire but the whole of Yorkshire and the North East and would have a catchment population much bigger than the whole of Eire - and so I completely disagree with you about that. I have completed reams of research on catchment area study for both private and public transport and the potential therein. You really must do proper research on this rather than just spout. For instance how long does it take on the train to go from Huddersfield to abeam LEA against how long on the train from Huddersfield to MAN? [btw nobody uses the train from Huddersfield to LBA] I have proved the case with fact and figures on that thread time and time again. As for risk of leakage - the leakage is actually happening right now from not just Huddersfield, Bradford and Halifax but from Leeds, Sheffield, Hull and York etc etc as well as those towns you mention and many others simply because of where LBA is located (miles from the motorway and main rail network) and its very poor airfield characteristics (as I look out now it is in LVPs for the 4th day on the trot). Leakage like no other area in Europe! The weather is a lot better over the year at LEA.

Cork airport and its population catchment are miniscule compared to a well located airport within Yorkshire and it is ridiculous to compare them. Yes the weather is pretty similar at Cork and LBA.

The reason why Manchester airport (the big neighbour you mention) has done so well is hugely down to abject failure to place an airport in the correct location within Yorkshire. That is now very slowly going to change. I don't accept a failing hospital or train station in this region and therefore I don't see why anyone who cares about Yorkshire should accept a failing airport (just as they wouldn't do in Manchester, Birmingham or Edinburgh for example). We most certainly can do better and we must do better.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach. You keep banging on about LBA short runway."a runway extension only half of which can be used for landing"
You do realise that in general aircraft need much less runway to land than to take off I assume? 5900ft is suffice for most aircraft. As for Thompson they seem to have higher minimas than say Jet2 and Ryanair whilst using the same aircraft. That is not LBAs fault there is a CAT3 ILS though only CAT1 on 14. You constantly belittle LBA for being on a hill. Have you ever looked at LTN or BRS? They seem to do ok as does LBA. Why dont you just stump up the Millions needed to upgrade Leeds East and make its runway as long as LBA then maybe see if you can move the main conurbations in Yorkshire a little closer....

You do realise that if an aircraft cannot land at an airport it wont be able to take off from that airport? Therefore landing distance (LDA) takes precedence unless you build the planes at the airport which is exactly what they used to do. We have moved on from Lancaster bombers though and 6400ft perpendicular to prevailing wind is completely insufficient for a modern 21st century large populated city region.

Different airlines have different minimas - absolutely correct! Therefore the airport satisfies all those minimas. So yes it is the airport's fault! You make the airport able to do the job. That's what Leeds City Region need to do - make their airport able to do the job.

[HOODED]

Oh boy..LBA is not 6400ft it's 2250m or 7380ft. I'm sorry I must be simple, how is it LBAs fault that TOM use different Minima on their 738s to both Jet2 and Ryanair? The aircraft is certified to a CAT3 limit by Boeing if TOM decide not to use the lowest minimas available whereas others do how can the airport do anything??

[HOODED]

Leeds Approach. Just for clarification.

LBA 32/14 2250m 7382ft

LDA 14 1802m 5912ft
LDA 32 1916M 6286ft

LEA 24/06 1712m 5617ft
34/16 1666m 5466ft

LDA 24 and 06 1712m 5617ft
LDA 16 1666m 5466ft
LDA 34 1466M 4810ft

Now given the CAA would probably insist on a displaced threshold for AT movements at LEA these figures would likley reduce even more.LBA has displaced thresholds both ends as part of the runway extension approval 32 was moved 14 was due to high ground on approach. Aircraft land light due to fuel being significantly less than at take off( not rocket science) and hence LDA is significantly less than TODR. The current aircraft using LBA most 737 757 A320 have no problems on this "short" runway despite increased glideslope angle on 14. The airport has handled 747 767 727 DC10 DC8 707 Tu154 L1011.I wonder if LEA would be able to if the CAA insisted on an undershoot. Yes I know LEA could extend but we all know how much that will cost.
So please stop calling LBAs runway short especially when comparing it to Church Fenton, LEA or Tadcaster international or whatever it's called these days. Thanks.

[jamesgrainge]

Leeds Approach. Just for clarification.

LBA 32/14 2250m 7382ft

LDA 14 1802m 5912ft
LDA 32 1916M 6286ft

LEA 24/06 1712m 5617ft
34/16 1666m 5466ft

LDA 24 and 06 1712m 5617ft
LDA 16 1666m 5466ft
LDA 34 1466M 4810ft

Now given the CAA would probably insist on a displaced threshold for AT movements at LEA these figures would likley reduce even more.LBA has displaced thresholds both ends as part of the runway extension approval 32 was moved 14 was due to high ground on approach. Aircraft land light due to fuel being significantly less than at take off( not rocket science) and hence LDA is significantly less than TODR. The current aircraft using LBA most 737 757 A320 have no problems on this "short" runway despite increased glideslope angle on 14. The airport has handled 747 767 727 DC10 DC8 707 Tu154 L1011.I wonder if LEA would be able to if the CAA insisted on an undershoot. Yes I know LEA could extend but we all know how much that will cost.
So please stop calling LBAs runway short especially when comparing it to Church Fenton, LEA or Tadcaster international or whatever it's called these days. Thanks.

Don't forget Concorde :ok:

[Airbanda]

So please stop calling LBAs runway short especially when comparing it to Church Fenton,

Trouble is that runway actually is short, particularly in the landing sense. The report on the TriStar accident described it as second shortest on then BA Airtours network. The shortest was only a handful of feet less and being at sea level lacked the density altitude issue that also affects LBA.

Somebody who should know told me anything less than 2000m was regarded as suboptimal by US operators.

Including the TriStar three have gone off the end after 14 landings. Any extra concrete though would need to be at the Scotland Lane end (the Chevin being an immovable obstruction) and involve earthworks to rival those at St Helena, or a Funchal style 'viaduct'. Are Bridgpoint going to spend that sort of money?

[Malaga]

Reading Airbanda's comments has given me a great idea! If you tunnel from the Leeds to Harrogate railway line to the airport somewhere from the existing Bramhope tunnel then you could use the spoil to extend the runway at the Scotland Lane end. People are always suggesting better rail links to the airport so....why not kill two birds with one stone...all you need is a bit of EU funding!!!http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/cool.gif

Malaga

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Reading Airbanda's comments has given me a great idea! If you tunnel from the Leeds to Harrogate railway line to the airport somewhere from the existing Bramhope tunnel then you could use the spoil to extend the runway at the Scotland Lane end. People are always suggesting better rail links to the airport so....why not kill two birds with one stone...all you need is a bit of EU funding!!!http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/cool.gif

Malaga
Yes you could do that. It would cost 100s and 100s of millions of ££s more than building a runway extension on perfectly flat, spacious open land [very close to 2 and possibly 3 of the busiest rail routes in Europe and close to the North's main arterial motorway junctions]. What would you have? You would have maybe a 7500ft LDA on the top of a secluded no space hill top with the worst weather record in Britain (compared to similar airport) that is in completely the wrong geographic location to tap the population catchment of Yorkshire. Absolutely nowhere near the motorway or main rail. You'd have the runway (just) but not the passengers! Exactly why no one has done it, wants to do it or will do it. I tiny amount of relatively cheap and unproblematic runway extension creates an airport elsewhere that is almost ideally located to best tap the catchment.

It's not just the runway. It's the runway, the elevation, the orientation, the lack of space but even more importantly the geographic location allied to accessibility. If you moved LBA with its short, wrongly aligned runway and poor space and poor elevation directly 19 miles ESE you would have a Bristol airport and its passenger throughput.

[pug]

The ultimate question that LA has refused, consistently, to answer; who is going to pay for a new airport within such a close proximity to a brand new airport near Doncaster?

The above posts are pointless, the airlines continue to operate from LBA quite happily, there is no evidence to suggest that any long haul operators are deterred from operating due to runway constraints. The real reason is due to MAN being not far away. No new airport is going to change that.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

The ultimate question that LA has refused, consistently, to answer; who is going to pay for a new airport within such a close proximity to a brand new airport near Doncaster?

The above posts are pointless, the airlines continue to operate from LBA quite happily, there is no evidence to suggest that any long haul operators are deterred from operating due to runway constraints. The real reason is due to MAN being not far away. No new airport is going to change that.
The guy that has paid is going to pay. It wasn't even called an airport when I started the thread. How close do you think LTN and STN are? LPL and MAN? It's a long term project from a runway similar to SOU right now.

Of course airlines are happy! - What do you expect them say? "were going to a new airport in 10/15 years.

They're not deterred by runway constraints and poor location? - Yes they're at MAN with no runway constraints and ideal location relative to their catchment! You couldn't have more evidence.

[pug]

All the evidence says that he's not going to pay. He's bought it for use by GA whilst maximising profitability of the entire site for non-aviation related purposes, including a film studio (not exactly conducive to an airport operation)..

No, they go into MAN as that's where the bulk of demand in the North is centred, the facilities were developed to cater for that.

So, still irrelevant to what's happening in the real world at LBA.

[HOODED]

LA how exactly is LBA in the wrong place to serve Yorkshire. It's between 2 of its largest Cities with Harrogate to the north Dewsbury and Wakefield to the south. Doncaster has its own airport. Tadcaster is not exactly the centre of Yorkshire comerce, you could argue it would serve York well I guess. The real shame, for me, is that none of the money the councils made from the sale of LBA were spent on the promised improved road links..This I agree is LBAs biggest problem at the moment, not lack of space, being on a hill, runway in wrong direction etc etc. As for the cost of a small extension at the Scotland lane end the cost benefit isn't really there. The cost of extending the runway at CF putting in ILS and building a terminal however.....good luck with that!

[rpmac]

Hooded: Well said -totally agree. Can we now get on with any real news etc about LBA.

[paully]

Well said rpmac :D

[HOODED]

Sorry. Roger out.....

[GdLSF]

I don't visit this thread often, but is Leeds Approach the owner of the former RAF Church Fenton?

[jamesgrainge]

Is it just me who thinks LBA actually does quite a good job, after all, its a very small airport with limited capacity and capability. We have a major double runway, three terminal airport roughly 50 miles away yet LBA continues to be a busy airport with based airlines and European routes, despite all its shortcoming it runs a fairly decent schedule all year round. Not to mention GA, Multiflight and private owners.

Look at the likes of DTV, very similar to LBA but with arguably a better runway, yet has no traffic to speak of.

It is limited by its catchment, plane capability and the myriad rules, regulations and bylaws which strangle aviation, yet it has a solid plan and solid revenue. Please stop talking it down.

[TSR2]

Well said jamesgrainge.

[flybymike]

Private owners are now a minuscule part of the movements at Leeds. I'm one of them.
Most have been priced out of existence.

Multiflight, and the new incarnation PTT however, make GA still quite a strong presence for a regional airport.

[LBIA]

Ryanair have just announced a further 2x new routes from Leeds/Bradford to Bratislava and Vilnius commencing from the start of the winter 2016/17 schedule in October.

Bratislava = 2x weekly MON & FRI
Vilnius = 2x weekly TUE & FRI

See press release: http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/media/2293/07072016.pdf

[N707ZS]

If you look at Leeds East Church Fenton you can see they are paddling rather fast to keep afloat. They have managed to lease one hangar off to the film company and park the cross runway up with new cars, other than that the airfield isn't taking in much cash.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

All the evidence says that he's not going to pay. He's bought it for use by GA whilst maximising profitability of the entire site for non-aviation related purposes, including a film studio (not exactly conducive to an airport operation)..

Yes because we don't live in China - this is the natural beginning of a fledgling airport. Exactly as planned.

No, they go into MAN as that's where the bulk of demand in the North is centred, the facilities were developed to cater for that.

No they go into MAN because that airport is in the correct geographic location and is accessible and can fully do the job of handling all aircraft types (just like very close Edinburgh and Glasgow do).

So, still irrelevant to what's happening in the real world at LBA.

In the real world LBA and Yorkshire is losing passengers hand over fist because of its location, inaccessibility and inability to handle aircraft types as well as its poor diversion record.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

LA how exactly is LBA in the wrong place to serve Yorkshire. It's between 2 of its largest Cities with Harrogate to the north Dewsbury and Wakefield to the south. Doncaster has its own airport. Tadcaster is not exactly the centre of Yorkshire comerce, you could argue it would serve York well I guess. The real shame, for me, is that none of the money the councils made from the sale of LBA were spent on the promised improved road links..This I agree is LBAs biggest problem at the moment, not lack of space, being on a hill, runway in wrong direction etc etc. As for the cost of a small extension at the Scotland lane end the cost benefit isn't really there. The cost of extending the runway at CF putting in ILS and building a terminal however.....good luck with that!

Because being North of Bradford and Leeds - this associated urban sprawl, heavy traffic and poor arterial road connection acts as a wall to passengers from the South of the region. The statistics show this. There are 2 easy slides right through the catchment to MAN (tpe and M62) which literally suck passengers right out of not just Yorkshire but Leeds City region. DSA would not have been built if Leeds airport had been constructed 19 miles ESE of its current position. 100% fact. If you do not understand catchment area population study - you simply will not be able to understand this.

No council in their right mind will build link roads to an airport in the wrong place that cannot handle all aircraft types and is one of the worst in the country for diversions. It's called throwing good money after bad. That's why there isn't a motorway to LBA. You build motorways to airport's which will remained uncapped and have future potential. Of course small scale link roads are planned because they are and will be needed whatever becomes of the Yeadon site in distant years. Bridgepoint themselves agree that a new airport will potentially be needed and seeing that the airport has no cargo flights or wide bodied flights you can understand this.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Is it just me who thinks LBA actually does quite a good job, after all, its a very small airport with limited capacity and capability. We have a major double runway, three terminal airport roughly 50 miles away yet LBA continues to be a busy airport with based airlines and European routes, despite all its shortcoming it runs a fairly decent schedule all year round. Not to mention GA, Multiflight and private owners.

Look at the likes of DTV, very similar to LBA but with arguably a better runway, yet has no traffic to speak of.

It is limited by its catchment, plane capability and the myriad rules, regulations and bylaws which strangle aviation, yet it has a solid plan and solid revenue. Please stop talking it down.

Yes LBA is a small airport that is very restricted. Agreed. That is why an airport for Yorkshire and the Humber and the whole North East (which will soon have a population of 9 million people) needs to built in the correct location and fully able to do the job. Then you will see an airport like Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc have.

A well located airport within Yorkshire would have a population catchment something in the region of 10x bigger than MME and so I cannot agree that the 2 potential airports are similar. In effect 4 airports would be combined into 1 very efficient and extremely well connected and unrestricted airport for 9 million people + to use.

[LBIA]

Seems as if the LEEDS 5 PPrune thread has been Hijacked once yet again...

LBA gets a bit more good news, yet its the same old story from "LEEDSAPPROACH" and his Church Fenton fantasy airport.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

If you look at Leeds East Church Fenton you can see they are paddling rather fast to keep afloat. They have managed to lease one hangar off to the film company and park the cross runway up with new cars, other than that the airfield isn't taking in much cash.

In actual fact they are paddling very slowly because we do not live in China. I would be careful what you say unless you are a spokesperson.

The Govt. want to give the good millions of people in Yorkshire and the North East a fit for purpose well located [for the entire region] and fully motorway and main rail connected airport that can handle all aircraft types like they wanted to give flood defense. Those people with wet houses let them do it just like the plane spotters do on here.

If you provide a region a proper airport - it will grow - look at BHX - it will grow through the roof. Whatever Yeadon airport manages to slowly grow to - an airport a few miles to the ESE on main arterial route would more than double it.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Seem as if the LEEDS 5 PPrune thread Hijacked once yet again...

LBA gets a bit more good news, yet its the same old story from "LEEDSAPPROACH" and his Church Fenton fantasy airport.

What I'd like you to do LBIA is find out how many runways in Britain / UK have an LDA that is more than the LBA's maximum LDA. Then list all those airports and runways [both directions] on here and tell me that LBA is a fit for purpose airport (going forward) for the gigantic Leeds city region - one of the biggest cities in Europe.

It's no hijack I just like to post honestly about LBA. I will not mention any other airport - despite what others have clearly posted before me. This is about LBA which admittedly has done a great deal with RYR today which pits it against another Yorkshire airport. This battle was predicted months ago by me on here.

[BKS Air Transport]

LA, you created the Church Fenton thread, what is the problem with putting all this tosh on it?

[paully]

Because no one reads it on there and he gets a reaction to the tosh on here :=

[RobT100]

Thomas Cook using Evelop airlines in and out of LBA in 2017

[easyflyer83]

Does Yorkshire need a 'large airport' when you have MAN? Indeed, if we didn't have the Pennines as a divide and named counties either side, would we be having this argument in the first place?

I say this as a Yorkshireman.

[pug]

It's like people in Wrexham campaigning for long-haul flights from CWL 'cos it's in Wales'.. MAN is the Norths major airport, and it is poised to grow more with the investment going into the place.

Yorkshire doesn't need a new airport, it needs improved surface access to MAN, supplemented by increased connectivity from incumbent airports.

Anyway, troll feeding over.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Does Yorkshire need a 'large airport' when you have MAN? Indeed, if we didn't have the Pennines as a divide and named counties either side, would we be having this argument in the first place?

I say this as a Yorkshireman.

A simple question with a very simple answer.

It is NOT about having a 'large airport' - it is about having an airport that can operate fully and efficiently and is in the best location to be used by the most amount of people with the least amount of hassle. That is - that it makes best use of its potential catchment population dependent on where it is located and how it is connected.

Leeds and Yorkshire need this 'type' of airport [which we do not currently have] in exactly the same way as we need a hospital or a train station or even an arena. Every city and region and country is the same - they aim to maximise the benefit of what they have.

Would a large city have a hospital that would only treat you if you were born in an even year? No of course not! So why does a massive populated region like Leeds have an airport that cannot handle modern large aircraft?

The former joint owner of LBA and leader of Leeds City Council stated "we want to be ambitious like other regions". It is not about any other region or airport - it is about doing the best for this region. No true Yorkshireman or woman would advocate Yorkshire not trying to do its best. Can we do better in Leeds and Yorkshire in terms of efficient civil aviation- Yes. It is not even an argument.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Who doesn't want Leeds and Yorkshire to fully realise its potential in terms of efficient and least restrictive civil aviation strategy?

Competing airports, neighbouring regions but most of all Yeadon plane spotters!

[SWBKCB]

Not every large city needs a large airport especially when there is one just down the road, but even accepting that there is a business case for Yorkshire needing it's own globally capable airport, what is never explained is how it will be done - who pays for it, how do you overcome the objections, etc, etc

[easyflyer83]

But does it need to handle large aircraft?

Regardless of where exactly a Leeds airport is, there will always be parts of Yorkshire where MAN will be easier to reach.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

But does it need to handle large aircraft?

Regardless of where exactly a Leeds airport is, there will always be parts of Yorkshire where MAN will be easier to reach.

Agreed. But. What we have at present is much much much worse than what we can potentially have (without mentioning any other potential airport location) in terms of encouraging Yorkshire inhabiting people to fly from Yorkshire. In other words the potential change is for the better.

Does it need to handle large aircraft? Regardless let's eventually and potentially make it ABLE to? Is there demand for certain widebodied aircraft flights - 100% yes. In other words the potential change is for the better.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Not every large city needs a large airport especially when there is one just down the road, but even accepting that there is a business case for Yorkshire needing it's own globally capable airport, what is never explained is how it will be done - who pays for it, how do you overcome the objections, etc, etc

I will alas not be talking about any potential new airport now and certainly not on this thread. This thread is for LBA.

[pug]

I have countless times reached LBA from East Yorkshire in under an hour at all times of day or night. I can also get to DSA in 45 minutes (from Leeds and from East Yorkshire). Given that most studies of catchment area dynamics use an hour travelling time as the benchmark, both airports are already well placed in that respect. What they're not well placed to do is compete on the same level as MAN, and that is purely down to size of catchment areas, economic factors and propensity to fly. Yorkshire is not as densely populated as the North West, and not as many air passengers have O&D's in Yorkshire as they do in the North Weat, hence MAN being the place most airlines choose to operate from. Therefore it is important to improve connectivity to MAN so that Yorkshires cities can capitalise on that growth.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I have countless times reached LBA from East Yorkshire in under an hour at all times of day or night. I can also get to DSA in 45 minutes (from Leeds and from East Yorkshire). Given that most studies of catchment area dynamics use an hour travelling time as the benchmark, both airports are already well placed in that respect. What they're not well placed to do is compete on the same level as MAN, and that is purely down to size of catchment areas, economic factors and propensity to fly. Yorkshire is not as densely populated as the North West, and not as many air passengers have O&D's in Yorkshire as they do in the North Weat, hence MAN being the place most airlines choose to operate from. Therefore it is important to improve connectivity to MAN so that Yorkshires cities can capitalise on that growth.

pug I've explained it very clearly to you again and again and again with many many facts and figures. If you have too many airports within a potential catchment when that catchment is heavily under attack from neighbouring airports then nobody wins - both airports suffer. having 2 poorly equipped florists on the high street means they both suffer. Much better to have 1 efficient florist in the best location on the high street.

Yes there is not as many people live in Yorkshire than live in the North West but the ratio is NOT 7 : 1.

There are more people live in the North East and Yorkshire than live in the North West and Cumbria and so a well located and accessible functioning airport within this region will without doubt ensure that people remain in the region to fly - hugely more than is happening at present (where passenger leakage is gigantic exactly because of the clear reasoning I've explained).

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Who will pay for 6 million people in Yorkshire the additional cost to get to MAN to take a flight that is 100% viable and profitable from a fully functioning and well located and accessible airport within Yorkshire?

I want to fly to Florida. Many hundreds of thousands of Yorkshire and Humberside people do. Will you pug pay the difference in travelling fare for doing so from MAN to fly (even on lovely HS3) as opposed to a functioning and well located airport within Yorkshire?

[BKS Air Transport]

LA-I don't accept your analogy, in that LBA and DSA are not in that same 'high street', they both have their own. Had proper provision been made for two airports, one to serve Leeds and one to serve Sheffield many years ago, we would not now see the dominance that MAN has over the north of the country. But we are as we are, and we must now make the best of it (and one airport at Church Fenton is most certainly not that-it would be an attempt at compromise doomed to failure).


Manchester has most certainly aided many people from east of the Pennines over the years in that it has sent them on their holidays. It was this comparative ease that was used as an excuse to oppose both applications to extend the runway at Leeds. Whether MAN has helped Leeds obtain international inward investment in meaningful amounts is a very different question, and I personally have seen little evidence to suggest that it has.

[SWBKCB]

I will alas not be talking about any potential new airport now and certainly not on this thread. This thread is for LBA.

Nice try - but you talk about nothing else :D

i.e. the post before (2696)..

What we have at present is much much much worse than what we can potentially have (without mentioning any other potential airport location) in terms of encouraging Yorkshire inhabiting people to fly from Yorkshire. In other words the potential change is for the better

and you then go on to say (2699)...

so a well located and accessible functioning airport within this region will without doubt ensure that people remain in the region to fly

:eek:

[LEEDS APPROACH]

LA-I don't accept your analogy, in that LBA and DSA are not in that same 'high street', they both have their own. Had proper provision been made for two airports, one to serve Leeds and one to serve Sheffield many years ago, we would not now see the dominance that MAN has over the north of the country. But we are as we are, and we must now make the best of it (and one airport at Church Fenton is most certainly not that-it would be an attempt at compromise doomed to failure).


Manchester has most certainly aided many people from east of the Pennines over the years in that it has sent them on their holidays. It was this comparative ease that was used as an excuse to oppose both applications to extend the runway at Leeds. Whether MAN has helped Leeds obtain international inward investment in meaningful amounts is a very different question, and I personally have seen little evidence to suggest that it has.

You quite clearly do not understand the relationship between catchment area population and the ability of an airport to have sustainable routes! If every city had its own airport very few routes would be viable - exactly opposite to your reasoning. For instance if your catchment was too small you would not even be able to make routes to Dublin and Belfast (for example) work. That is why the geographic location of an airport is utterly critical in making that airport a success. Exactly what is going wrong in Yorkshire.

Because Yorkshire and Humberside is surrounded by efficient, well located competing airports within their regions having more than 1 airport within Yorkshire will directly leave to massive massive passenger leakage and gigantic failure.

[pug]

No facts and figures have been offered, except to say that Yorkshire has a bigger population than Scotland. What you fail to grasp is that Yorkshire generates only 50% of the number of air passengers that Scotland does. The number in the Nort West is around 6 million more than Yorkshire generates. This is why MAN has developed to the extent it has. They have merely facilitated growth through demand. MAN hasn't grown off the back of lack of suitable facilities at this side of the Pennines.

DSA was developed to facilitate the 'huge untapped demand' in Yorkshire, however uptake has been minimal. Nobody is going to allow for another new airport in the region, nobody is going to pay for one either. Especially not after the opening of DSA. LBA will continue to grow to meet local demand, DSA may or may not. I suggest you take your ill informed ramblings on to your fantasy thread and leave this one for its intended purpose.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Your fingers are firmly in your ears! So Scotland must move around 25 million pax (using your very off figures). 50% of that is 12.5 million pax. Yet all 4 Yorkshire airports move much less than 5 million passengers! That is because more people are leaving the region to fly than are staying in it due directly to location of airport/ characteristic of airport/number of internal competing airports.

Thank you pug for totally and unreservedly proving the case for the improvement of Yorkshire airport strategy. Can Yorkshire do better - 100% yes and pug proves it!

[SWBKCB]

Can Yorkshire do better - 100% yes

So what should be done and who's going to be paying for it?

[pug]

Yorkshire actually generated 9.4 million passengers in most recent available statistics. Scotland was double that, the North West was 15 million. There are 3 airports in Yorkshire and Humberside, not 4. Nobody is going to build a wall around Yorkshire, so nobody is going to stop the flow of passengers to airports just outside of the boundary (or to London airports, for that matter). So your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Just to quote some propensity to fly (per person) statistics;

London 2.94
Scotland 1.72
South East 1.44
North West 1.01
Eastern England 0.96
East Midlands 0.76
West Midlands 0.75
South West 0.73
Yorkshire and Humber 0.72

Are you going to go off and argue with yourself on your fantasy thread now LA?

[TSR2]

That is because more people are leaving the region to fly than are staying in it due directly to location of airport/ characteristic of airport/number of internal competing airports.


What evidence have you to support this statement?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Glasgow to Leeds Bradford. April 2016. 461 Passengers down 41% from April 2015 when there was 783.

Location of airport
Accessibility of airport
Functionality of airport
Number of competing airports within potential catchment

How many people who reside in Yorkshire and the Humber are leaving Yorkshire and the Humber to fly to Glasgow because of 1 or more of the points above? Is the number affecting the viability of the route I ask?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Yorkshire actually generated 9.4 million passengers in most recent available statistics. Scotland was double that, the North West was 15 million. There are 3 airports in Yorkshire and Humberside, not 4. Nobody is going to build a wall around Yorkshire, so nobody is going to stop the flow of passengers to airports just outside of the boundary (or to London airports, for that matter). So your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Just to quote some propensity to fly (per person) statistics;

London 2.94
Scotland 1.72
South East 1.44
North West 1.01
Eastern England 0.96
East Midlands 0.76
West Midlands 0.75
South West 0.73
Yorkshire and Humber 0.72

Are you going to go off and argue with yourself on your fantasy thread now LA?

All been done before - take away somebodies train station and they are less likely to buy a train ticket!

Exactly my friend nobody is going to stop the flow of passengers out of your defined catchment area - so you do you utmost to encourage them to stay in it by providing an ideally located and accessible airport that functions properly. You prove the argument again pug - because in reality there is no debate! Can Yorkshire do better - Yes.

[pug]

:D

What an insanely stupid example to use. Does it not occur to you that more people may be jumping on the train or driving rather than paying more to fly?

I think LA has been using the below as part of his 'research'..

https://youtu.be/6VLYpKGVBUg

Obviously according to LA, Yorkshire people are so stubborn they refuse to fly from an airport outside of Yorkshire.. 'If it's outside Yorkshire, it's not worth bloody visiting'. Aint that right, Leeds Approach?

[BKS Air Transport]

You've singled out one route there where passengers numbers may have fallen for all sorts of reasons, none of which are likely to be related to what you say. Overall, passenger figures at LBA continue to increase.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

What evidence have you to support this statement?

This is caa back upable. Just short of 5 million are flying from MAN alone when I last checked some months ago. Then there are 100s of thousands to Liverpool. 100s of thousands to East Midlands etc etc etc

[1DC]

I live in the Humber area. The most convenient airport is humberside but it can never compete on price.If i am going short haul on holiday, the drive time to LBA is 2 hours, to MAN is 2h 25m. MAN is generally cheaper but not always but MAN is so much more convenient for parking that is usually the decider. IF i am going long haul MAN is usually the most convenient, i generally fly business on long haul and when price comes into it LON is usually cheapest including a hotel at London. Occassionally flight times suit the train and then MAN wins hands down.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

For every 3 people who reside in the North West and are flying from Manchester airport there is 1 person who lives in Yorkshire and Humberside who has travelled all the way there to fly!

Not to Tegucigalpa or Manila but to Frankfurt, Brussels, Florida, Dubai - and many many more routes that are 100% viable from a well located and accessible unrestricted airport within Yorkshire that pools the catchment population in exactly the same way that for example BHX does.

[pug]

DSA is within Yorkshire, but apparently that doesn't count according to LA..

You have no statistics to prove those destinations are '100% viable' though, have you..

[LEEDS APPROACH]

You've singled out one route there where passengers numbers may have fallen for all sorts of reasons, none of which are likely to be related to what you say. Overall, passenger figures at LBA continue to increase.

I would go and have a look at which routes have dropped my friend - especially since there have been £20+ tickets floating around in the region. Have you noticed the fk70s?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

DSA is within Yorkshire, but apparently that doesn't count according to LA..

You have no statistics to prove those destinations are '100% viable' though, have you..

Would Cork or Glasgow for example benefit from 1 extra person from South Yorkshire using the service? Virtually no body from South Yorkshire is flying from LBA as a ratio. It really isn't rocket science - the bigger your catchment combined with your ability to keep it = greater number of routes/cheaper routes/better frequency of routes. Yorkshire and its people benefit overall.

As for your 1st line - I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[Andy_S]

having 2 poorly equipped florists on the high street means they both suffer. Much better to have 1 efficient florist in the best location on the high street.

True. But then someone has to acquire suitable premises and invest heavily in them to make them suitable for purpose. And when they've done that they have to attract custom from the two existing florists which may not have ideal premises but have built up a loyal customer base which sees no obvious reason to shop elsewhere. So how will the new florist - now heavily in debt - attract the custom it needs to operate profitably?

[pug]

DSA is relatively central, and could by your theory flourish should LBA close in favour of one airport. So why not focus growth in DSA?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

True. But then someone has to acquire suitable premises and invest heavily in them to make them suitable for purpose. And when they've done that they have to attract custom from the two existing florists which may not have ideal premises but have built up a loyal customer base which sees no obvious reason to shop elsewhere. So how will the new florist - now heavily in debt - attract the custom it needs to operate profitably?

That's all very clear and correct. It also [critically] makes some gigantic assumptions about the florists.

[Andy_S]

That's all very clear and correct. It also [critically] makes some gigantic assumptions about the florists.

Just as you, I believe, have made some gigantic assumptions about the nature of the aviation industry.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

DSA is relatively central, and could by your theory flourish should LBA close in favour of one airport. So why not focus growth in DSA?

The location is utterly critical to the predicted demand. It is to do with West Yorkshire urban area, the importance of Leeds City region but more important main arterial motorway and main rail (including HS2/3) connection. Would LCR be happy for DSA to be its airport when it has an airport that is admittedly less than ideal? 8 million people at the other end of a railway line is rich pickings even if you take just 2% of it.

[pug]

So you're readily admitting that it is not about Yorkshire, it is in fact just about Leeds.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Just as you, I believe, have made some gigantic assumptions about the nature of the aviation industry.

Possibly but you still made assumptions about the critical florists. Which is key. The Government will hopefully have learned their lesson after the last 2 weeks. You can give us HS3 but unless you pay our fares to use it 10x per year to MAN - then it would make more sense to give 9 million people an airport that works properly.

I'm going in for my tea now.

[G-FORZ]

Latest HS/2 parkway proposal station at M18 Bramley will only benefit DSA....but years away. Catchment population is not an exact science for air travel... If LTN is cheaper Yorkshire people will travel to LTN. Florist analogy is flawed because there arn't that many. Think supermarkets.. Morrisons, Asda, tesco, all sell the same products in same local accessibility. Flight travel is no different, all offering same product it comes down to price and availability of product. 1-2 hours to an airport is not a great deal on the one day you travel for a summer holiday, but 1 hr max will dictate convienience for a business flight where the company are paying. LBA currently offers more product than other local regional airports, so will win the market as long as the prices are as competitive as the next most accessible with similar pricing.

[roverman]

Plenty of people travel every day from Leeds/Bradford area to work at MAN and so a few times a year to fly cannot be a big deal for others. MAN is a Yorkshire airport in several ways. Think bigger.

[Barnstable]

Leeds Approach's argument that people from S Yorks and Humberside would flock to Church Fenton could equally apply to people from W Yorks using DSA. It's close to the M18 and the M1, has a big runway and capacity to expand if demand exists. Church Fenton would be, what, 35-40 mins from Sheffield? DSA is only 40-odd minutes down the A1 / M1 from Leeds

[pug]

LBA is actually quite well located for the West Yorkahire passenger. If there were to be one Yorkshire airport, then Wakefield would have been the place to put it. Alas, the opportunity was there in the 60's (in the form of an airport at Ferrybridge) but Whitehall left airport development - outside of BAA - up to local authorities. Local authorities took a largely parochial view, hence the current situation in Yorkshire.

LBA may well suffer from adverse weather, and it doesn't have the longest of usable runway length, but there is no evidence to suggest this has held it back. Careful planning and investment could in theory double capacity. It ultimately comes down to whether there truly is the will, and the demand to do so.

As far is long haul is concerned, there is only room for one major airport along the M62 corridor. MAN has the critical mass, along with the strong market to lower the risk to operators. There is no evidence to suggest that the likes of Emirates or united would want to serve a Yorkshire airport. If - in the unlikely event that they did - provisions could be made at one of the current ones.

All that said before we even go into the physical constraints of Church Fenton, and the fact it frequently suffers from adverse weather too..

[Barnstable]

I do agree, as most do, that LBA's transport connections are holding it back. A relief road is sorely needed

[jamesgrainge]

Oh my goodness, I got bored and lost reading LA's lunatic ramblings.

As a recent passenger I can tell you exactly what stops people flying from LBA. £££.
it worked out cheaper for two of us to drive over to MAN and fly than drive the 45 minutes to LBA. It was quick, easy and convenient.

Another airport isn't going to solve that. Unless you want it to run at a loss for the next 200 years to pay back the loans maybe?

I appreciate the economics aren't simple, but consider this, the most commonly used commercials are 737 and Airbus 3xx series aircraft. So how is the addition of one 787 to the US a month going to suddenly make a Yorkshire airport a huge profit. The people who run LBA probably have a much greater understanding of the economics of the site/available catchment. North of Leeds (where I live) is not exactly what you would call overpopulated.

[j636]

1 new route: Girona (2 wkly)

More flights to: Alicante (daily), Faro (daily), Ibiza (4 wkly), Krakow (4 wkly)
Lanzarote (4 wkly), Palma (8 wkly) & Tenerife (3 wkly)

4 new summer services: Bratislava (2 wkly), Gran Canaria (2 wkly),
Vilnius (2 wkly) & Warsaw (2 wkly)


Welcome to Ryanair! (http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/news/160719-leeds-bradford-summer-2017-schedule-launched/?market=en)

All Jet2 bases launched by FR so far...

[jamesgrainge]

A quick bump to put us back on the map if we don't mind? Presumably LBA has shut as this thread has gone deathly silent :ok:

[paully]

Yup..all packed up and moved to Church Fenton :}:}

[jamesgrainge]

Yup..all packed up and moved to Church Fenton :}:}

Please no, not again, I cant take it hahahaha, ive just started to enjoy these forums again.

[snowman 1]

jamesgrainge
im with you all the way on this one.

[Runway 32/14]

on a different note!! does anyone know if the multiflight web cam still works!!

[Mooncrest]

I understand the Multiflight webcam has been permanently withdrawn.

[2Planks]

BBC North reporting that Leeds East (Formerly RAF Church Fenton) has been granted a CAA licence to operate charter flights to Europe from Spring 17.


(Taking cover ;))

[Runway 32/14]

I contacted multiflight and that's what they told me! such a shame i loved to view it.
thanks for the reply..

[Runway 32/14]

BBC North reporting that Leeds East (Formerly RAF Church Fenton) has been granted a CAA licence to operate charter flights to Europe from Spring 17.


(Taking cover ;))
I have just ssen the news article in regards to Church Fenton! hardly going to have much affect on LBA or Doncaster with its V.I.P nonsense and £1000 return flights to and from Malaga. think i will stick with jet2 lol

[Runway 32/14]

Jet2 are not holding back by announcing its to open its 9th base at Stanstead Airport in London, holiday flights should start in April 2017


Jet2 owners Dart Group add new airport base to portfolio | TheBusinessDesk.com (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/739616-jet2-owners-dart-group-take-off-with-new-airport-base.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Yorkshire_8th_Sep_2016_-_Daily_E-mail)

[egcntristar]

I have just ssen the news article in regards to Church Fenton! hardly going to have much affect on LBA or Doncaster with its V.I.P nonsense and £1000 return flights to and from Malaga. think i will stick with jet2 lol
Hence you're not the market they are looking to capitalize on.

Leave them to it and good luck to them If it works, it works and creates jobs its not like it will impact on LBA or DSA in the medium term.

[Runway 32/14]

Hence you're not the market they are looking to capitalize on.

Leave them to it and good luck to them If it works, it works and creates jobs its not like it will impact on LBA or DSA in the medium term.
I never said i was!

[egcntristar]

I never said i was!
The "think i will stick with jet2 lol" jibe was negative enough.

[Runway 32/14]

The "think i will stick with jet2 lol" jibe was negative enough.
Nothing wrong with Jet2 and i don't see how i am being negative! i only said that it would be a service that would have no impact on either Leeds Or Doncaster!!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I propose that this thread be now labelled the 'Bradford' thread to distinguish between the two Leeds city region International airports and to avoid confusion?

[LAX_LHR]

Leeds approach must you troll every thread?

You support Leeds east airport, we get it. How about taking a tranquilliser and sitting in a dark corner for a bit?

[chaps1954]

Get real there is only one Leeds Bradford International and 2 GA airfields south west of York

[StoneyBridge Radar]

I propose that this thread be now labelled the 'Bradford' thread to distinguish between the two Leeds city region International airports and to avoid confusion?


I propose the status quo until there is anything tangible beyond the realms of utter fantasy and not before the first passengers depart on their £1,000 all luxury return fares to the Med.

Wasn't there another crackpot flights of fantasy idea from somewhere in Yorkshire only last year also?

[jamesgrainge]

I propose that this thread be now labelled the 'Bradford' thread to distinguish between the two Leeds city region International airports and to avoid confusion?

I'm sorry, this is a bit of a jump isn't it, Selby district council haven't even received an application for planning yet 😂😂😂, let alone begun offering commercial International flights. Which is probably one of the prerequisites for an "International" airport?

[chaps1954]

Wonder if the Yorkshire public will buy into it as it`s not Yorkshire Airlines, hope they provide fish, chips and mushy peas