LEEDS 5

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Brilliant news that Bridgepoint plan to do a little bit more tinkering within the terminal this Winter by filling in the gaps in the floors. It gets the most out of what we have with the terminal as we shoe horn up to 5 / 5.5 million pax. It is the perfect short term fix for what is required on the current less than ideal site and is exactly what is needed. I totally support Bridgepoint and their plans for the region.

[canberra97]

I'm so glad we don't have an equivalent version of LEEDS APPROACH on the Southampton forum!

[paully]

Yer I know Canberra, but we just ignore him...:hmm:

[N707ZS]

Sure he will pop down to Southampton if you ask him! Stuck his nose in DTVA the other day!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I love it how the weather at LBA on the arrivals page of their website shows rain when it is 200M in FOG (low cloud)!

I have never seen the fog symbol used when it's foggy at LBA - always the rain symbol. Funny that.

LVPs again today at 700ft amsl but not at 30ft. Extended routing, delay, extra fuel burn, restriction of movement on the airfield.

[chaps1954]

Mega problems by look of it thanks to FR24 don`t wind us up Leeds Approach, biggest delay on arrivals was 4 mins and probably no weather delays for departures
08:55
BA1340London (LHR)British AirwaysA319G-EUPMLanded 08:55

09:05FR152Dublin (DUB)RyanairB738EI-ENALanded 09:02
09:40KL1541Amsterdam (AMS)KLM cityhopperE190PH-EZKLanded 09:44

10:30EI3392Dublin (DUB)Aer LingusAT76EI-FAVLanded 10:32

11:35BE731Belfast (BHD)FlybeDH8DG-PRPCEstimated 11:29

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Mega problems by look of it thanks to FR24 don`t wind us up Leeds Approach, biggest delay on arrivals was 4 mins and probably no weather delays for departures
08:55
BA1340London (LHR)British AirwaysA319G-EUPMLanded 08:55

09:05FR152Dublin (DUB)RyanairB738EI-ENALanded 09:02
09:40KL1541Amsterdam (AMS)KLM cityhopperE190PH-EZKLanded 09:44

10:30EI3392Dublin (DUB)Aer LingusAT76EI-FAVLanded 10:32

11:35BE731Belfast (BHD)FlybeDH8DG-PRPCEstimated 11:29










Not mega problems no. Just inefficiencies. Of course it helps if you are at the airport (which I am) rather than in Stockport relying on FR24.

The LVPs are now cancelled and we indeed do now have heavy rain. Earlier the BA could have landed at 08.40 but due to visibility issues was vectored until it could make the approach while at the same time a MON 320 was held [rather than taxying] due to the LVPs. Not massive issues no but inefficiencies. In a dog eat dog civil aviation world where airlines and airports compete to the death inefficiencies are bad bad bad and cost money and that is why I highlight them.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Mega problems by look of it thanks to FR24 don`t wind us up Leeds Approach, biggest delay on arrivals was 4 mins and probably no weather delays for departures
08:55
BA1340London (LHR)British AirwaysA319G-EUPMLanded 08:55

09:05FR152Dublin (DUB)RyanairB738EI-ENALanded 09:02
09:40KL1541Amsterdam (AMS)KLM cityhopperE190PH-EZKLanded 09:44

10:30EI3392Dublin (DUB)Aer LingusAT76EI-FAVLanded 10:32

11:35BE731Belfast (BHD)FlybeDH8DG-PRPCEstimated 11:29

Unless LBA have adopted a policy to coach punters in from an active runway the STA/ETA/ATA is the arrival time at the aircraft's designated parking stand/gate and not when it may land on a runway!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Unless LBA have adopted a policy to coach punters in from an active runway the STA/ETA/ATA is the arrival time at the aircraft's designated parking stand/gate and not when it may land on a runway!

Not sure this adds anything harry. An airport with increased efficiency is what we all want.

[paully]

Which in your case means Church Fenton :ugh:

[chaps1954]

How much of that could have actually got into Church Fenton because of runway length
There are bigger delays at Manchester just because of the sheer volume of traffic and believe it or
not we get low vis and wind as well.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

How much of that could have actually got into Church Fenton because of runway length
There are bigger delays at Manchester just because of the sheer volume of traffic and believe it or
not we get low vis and wind as well.

None at the moment - to your first point (but not because of weather at 700ft). It is because the airport is newly born.

To your second point - But sheer volume of traffic creates lots of wealth whereas fog at 700ft creates no wealth.

The sheer volume of traffic at MAN is partly due to you not being at 700ft in the fog.

Yes you get low viz and wind but nowhere near as much as you would at 700ft.

[SWBKCB]

To your second point - But sheer volume of traffic creates lots of wealth whereas fog at 700ft creates no wealth.

In a dog eat dog civil aviation world where airlines and airports compete to the death inefficiencies are bad bad bad and cost money and that is why I highlight them.

So the inefficiencies caused by congestion should be decreasing wealth? All airport locations are compromises - get over it (unless it supports you agenda :eek: )

[chaps1954]

Leeds gets low cloud we get fog, it`s just the position of the airfield, as soon as low viz comes in a 2 runway airport loses a very large percentage of the movements, when flow control comes in places like LGW very busy single runway and LHR and MAN and to an extent BHX and LTN
can suffer.
I thought Church Fenton used to be bad for fog with being in the Vale of York

Ian

[LEEDS APPROACH]

So the inefficiencies caused by congestion should be decreasing wealth? All airport locations are compromises - get over it (unless it supports you agenda :eek: )

Let me be clear - any inefficiency is a bad thing as it inherently adds to costs so if there must be inefficiency let it be caused by gaining wealth rather than fog at 700ft.

We have compromised in the North East and Yorkshire for too long and now we have the opportunity to make less of a compromise by having an airport in a better location where flights to New York will be viable (in the long term). My agenda, as you put it, is simple and has never been hidden - let's have an airport for the North East and Yorkshire in the right place so that millions of us do not have to travel to Scotland or the North West or the East Midlands to take basic flights.

[jamesgrainge]

Let me be clear - any inefficiency is a bad thing as it inherently adds to costs so if there must be inefficiency let it be caused by gaining wealth rather than fog at 700ft.

We have compromised in the North East and Yorkshire for too long and now we have the opportunity to make less of a compromise by having an airport in a better location where flights to New York will be viable (in the long term). My agenda, as you put it, is simple and has never been hidden - let's have an airport for the North East and Yorkshire in the right place so that millions of us do not have to travel to Scotland or the North West or the East Midlands to take basic flights.

You don't have to travel. Simply go to LBA. Or were you a regular user of Concorde? I think you will notice there are very few airports outside of the south east that offer long haul destinations, save a few Emirates routes. Your potential forecasts are based on the idea there is an appetite for 90% of Yorkshire jetting off to the US every year. Which they won't.

[canberra97]

Well it can't be denied that you have an Agenda but seriously we can all dream but I'm afraid yours are met with constant negativity and for the right reasons as well.

It's nearly the end of 2016 are you going to debate this Agenda for ever and ever as it's becoming so boring as others on here will agree with.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds gets low cloud we get fog, it`s just the position of the airfield, as soon as low viz comes in a 2 runway airport loses a very large percentage of the movements, when flow control comes in places like LGW very busy single runway and LHR and MAN and to an extent BHX and LTN
can suffer.
I thought Church Fenton used to be bad for fog with being in the Vale of York

Ian
LBA and MAN are incomparable when it comes to diversion rate. Diverted passenger per passenger handled and number of weather affected days as you would expect at vastly different elevations and factoring in LBAs short exactly perpendicular to prevailing wind runway.

Yes there will be weather related diversions and inefficiency at 'the other thread' but at a less rate than LBA at 700ft. = increased efficiency = improvement.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

You don't have to travel. Simply go to LBA. Or were you a regular user of Concorde? I think you will notice there are very few airports outside of the south east that offer long haul destinations, save a few Emirates routes. Your potential forecasts are based on the idea there is an appetite for 90% of Yorkshire jetting off to the US every year. Which they won't.

Not Concorde but the most basic route to Cork! - gone because of airport location! 5.5 million people and Cork bites the dust. Wake up to the obvious!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Well it can't be denied that you have an Agenda but seriously we can all dream but I'm afraid yours are met with constant negativity and for the right reasons as well.

It's nearly the end of 2016 are you going to debate this Agenda for ever and ever as it's becoming so boring as others on here will agree with.

I wont debate the issue but we can both watch it grow in front of us while we chat about building a new terminal in the car park at LBA lol.

[canberra97]

So in your opinion CORK has gone due to airport location so why does every other route still operate, so it's not down to loads or anything like that but poor airport location!

Now I would have given you the benefit of the doubt seeing that your no more than an aviation enthusiast and a bit to much of one if you ask me but to blame the loss of CORK on airport location really sums you up and it may be the case that you need to see a doctor as soon as possible because after reading all your tedious posts on here I seriously think all is not well!

[Harry Wayfarers]

We have compromised in the North East and Yorkshire for too long and now we have the opportunity to make less of a compromise by having an airport in a better location where flights to New York will be viable (in the long term). My agenda, as you put it, is simple and has never been hidden - let's have an airport for the North East and Yorkshire in the right place so that millions of us do not have to travel to Scotland or the North West or the East Midlands to take basic flights.

How on god's earth is any long hauler going to lift off from Church Fenton's 5,600ft; destination NYC?

The North East has several airports already, NCL, MME, HUY, DSA, LBA ... Why the need to concrete over even more of an otherwise beautiful county famous for it's Dales and National Park?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

You don't have to travel. Simply go to LBA. Or were you a regular user of Concorde? I think you will notice there are very few airports outside of the south east that offer long haul destinations, save a few Emirates routes. Your potential forecasts are based on the idea there is an appetite for 90% of Yorkshire jetting off to the US every year. Which they won't.

Completely untrue - go and do some research james! 2.7 million people in the North East were not far off from sustaining a frequent flight to New York. 2.7 millon people + 5.5 million in Yorkshire [current populations] who require a direct none stop flight will sustain a frequent flight to New York.

The location of the airport is critical! The airport cannot be stuck miles from motorway and main rail on top of a 700ft hill top! Cork/Copenhagen is the empiric proof that population is not being used and is being divided up (despite linking up with football teams and having giant posters!)

[LEEDS APPROACH]

So in your opinion CORK has gone due to airport location so why does every other route still operate, so it's not down to loads or anything like that but poor airport location!

Now I would have given you the benefit of the doubt seeing that your no more than an aviation enthusiast and a bit to much of one if you ask me but to blame the loss of CORK on airport location really sums you up and it may be the case that you need to see a doctor as soon as possible because after reading all your tedious posts on here I seriously think all is not well!

Because the other routes are viable using the immediate population whereas Cork etc require the greater population of Yorkshire! It's not rocket science - certain routes require a bigger population for them to work!

[canberra97]

LEEDS APPROACH

YOU JUST DONT GIVE UP DO YOU, I JUST DONT KNOW WHY YOU DONT ACCEPT THE REAL FACTS GIVEN TO YOU!

Your very immature you know.

[Harry Wayfarers]

There are plenty of UK airports stuck miles from motorways and/or main rail, CWL, BRS, EXT, NQY, BOH, SEN, NWI, HUY, MME, NCL, BLK, LPL to name but some, his only valid argument is that LBA is elevated at some 700ft in full awareness that that is something that LBA cannot improve upon.

On this island where I live they are spending bucket loads of money on a sports arena that nobody wants whilst we don't even have a medical facility with an x-ray machine ... How about forgetting your rubber necking activities and campaign for better health facilities in Yorkshire ... i.e. Do something worthwhile and what the people want!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

LEEDS APPROACH

YOU JUST DONT GIVE UP DO YOU, I JUST DONT KNOW WHY YOU DONT ACCEPT THE REAL FACTS GIVEN TO YOU!

Your very immature you know.

Well let's not fall out - let's just both watch it slowly happen. You are loyal spotters and I do appreciate that.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

There are plenty of UK airports stuck miles from motorways and/or main rail, CWL, BRS, EXT, NQY, BOH, SEN, NWI, HUY, MME, NCL, BLK, LPL to name but some, his only valid argument is that LBA is elevated at some 700ft in full awareness that that is something that LBA cannot improve upon.

On this island where I live they are spending bucket loads of money on a sports arena that nobody wants whilst we don't even have a medical facility with an x-ray machine ... How about forgetting your rubber necking activities and campaign for better health facilities in Yorkshire ... i.e. Do something worthwhile and what the people want!

Harry you cannot just trot out a huge list of airports. You take each airport individually. Each airport will have its own population catchment and geography and critically the competition it is up against. If your airport is up against very efficient and accessible competition then putting your airport in a relatively inaccessible location will have a much greater impact than if your airport had lesser direct competition such as NCL.

The Yorkshire region is under gigantic attack from very very efficient accessible competition and therefore the location of a Leeds and Yorkshire airport is utterly utterly critical. Moving an airport just a short distance can more than triple the passenger throughput.

[chaps1954]

2050 or 2060 any bets on yet

[canberra97]

LEEDS APPROACH

'You are all loyal spotters and I appreciate that'

I have not been a spotter for over 30 years and back then facts didn't get in the way but as you get older and wiser you realise that facts mean a lot so I suggest you start to appreciate them rather than going round and round in circles regarding Church Fenton as its your pipe dream after all but you CONTINOUSLY try and push your personal agenda which to be honest has become VERY boring so could you please stop it or write to your local MP instead of posting utter dribble on here, as I said before you come across as VERY immature.

[Andy_S]

The Yorkshire region is under gigantic attack from very very efficient accessible competition and therefore the location of a Leeds and Yorkshire airport is utterly utterly critical.

This puts it all into perspective really.

It's nothing to do with lack of airports. It has everything to do with a feeling of entitlement. A sense of injustice that Manchester (and the North West) has something that Leeds (and the North East) doesn't.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

LEEDS APPROACH

'You are all loyal spotters and I appreciate that'

I have not been a spotter for over 30 years and back then facts didn't get in the way but as you get older and wiser you realise that facts mean a lot so I suggest you start to appreciate them rather than going round and round in circles regarding Church Fenton as its your pipe dream after all but you CONTINOUSLY try and push your personal agenda which to be honest has become VERY boring so could you please stop it or write to your local MP instead of posting utter dribble on here, as I said before you come across as VERY immature.

What facts!? You haven't mentioned any facts. I give you hard facts and all you offer back is that I'm immature! If you don't want to learn what is in store then go on to the SOU thread. The CAA statistics or facts are absolutely resoundingly clear that the region is losing passengers hand over fist to the competition. Millions upon millions going to EMA, MAN, LPL etc every year because of the relative ease of getting to those airports that are not built on hill tops in housing estates. I suggest you google "calls for new leeds airport" and it may help you. If you think it's dribble and you're bored then fine I'm really not bothered. My 'agenda' is for simple improvement to Yorkshire civil aviation by doing things a little bit more sensibly as we progress into the future. .. time for fish and chips now.

[canberra97]

No I haven't mentioned any facts but I can assure that everyone else has but yet again you CONTINOUSLY push for Church Fenton and ANDY S sums it up quite perfectly 'it has everything to do with entitement a sense of injustice that Manchester (and the North West) has something that Leeds (and the North East) doesn't' which in my view is an immature train of thought so enjoy your 'fish and chips' whilst I settle down to a nice Roast!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

This puts it all into perspective really.

It's nothing to do with lack of airports. It has everything to do with a feeling of entitlement. A sense of injustice that Manchester (and the North West) has something that Leeds (and the North East) doesn't.

Yes it's nothing to do with lack of airports or perspective. Injustice is the wrong word too. Yes we want to improve on what we have - is wanting to do things a little bit better and more efficiently a crime? Perhaps you feel a sense of entitlement to continue to hold Yorkshire and the North East back? Yes there is a certain amount of envy - you did things sensibly while we put our airport in the fog. Don't begrudge Yorkshire the future chance to do things better just because it may have some impact on you.

[LBIA]

Same old agenda, same old story... How many times Leeds Approach must you do this??

The Stobart Air Leeds - Cork route didn't work this summer as the flights operated on the wrong days TUE, THU, SAT with bad timings its that simple. They needed a MON, FRI & SUN schedule. I've been in contact with Aer Lingus recently and they haven't confirmed if the route has been axed altogether or just for the winter season with a return next summer..

Seen as its nice and clear up at LBA at the moment, I would advise you to go back to your spotting spot, listen to you airband radio and keep watching the Flightradar24 app whilst eating them nice fish and chips from down road at Murgatroyds.

[SWBKCB]

And can everybody stop tarring the North East with the Yorkshire brush.

Thank you!

[canberra97]

LBIA

Nicely put but I bet he will still be eating his Fish and Chips with his mouth full and still wanting to continue with his dire dribble on here, I will say it again he is a VERY immature individual who just won't give up and is probably a bit of a loner who's only way of communicating with others is on here!

[SWBKCB]

As another poster on this site would say - play the ball, and not the man. :=

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Same old agenda, same old story... How many times Leeds Approach must you do this??

The Stobart Air Leeds - Cork route didn't work this summer as the flights operated on the wrong days TUE, THU, SAT with bad timings its that simple. They needed a MON, FRI & SUN schedule. I've been in contact with Aer Lingus recently and they haven't confirmed if the route has been axed altogether or just for the winter season with a return next summer..

Seen as its nice and clear up at LBA at the moment, I would advise you to go back to your spotting spot, listen to you airband radio and keep watching the Flightradar24 app whilst eating them nice fish and chips from down road at Murgatroyds.

I am afraid not LBIA simply adding rotations to Cork would have reduced the passenger amount on each flight - they would be less viable and would have a lower yield. The optimum available schedule was worked out to absolutely maximise the greatest potential passenger throughput but this was not enough as the stats clearly show.

The route would have been viable with those same days from a different geographic location that encouraged more of Yorkshire and North East passengers to use that airport. Exactly the same for Madrid, Copenhagen, Toulouse, Sardinia etc etc etc. Everyone on the trans pennine express and many living on the M62 are going directly to MAN for year round Cork including many from Leeds itself. Do not fib to yourself - millions of Yorkshire and North East passengers are jumping straight on a train to get to MAN which is directly leading to many many marginal routes not being viable - whatever days or times they operate on. Hard and fast fact.

[pug]

How has this troll not been banned yet?

[jamesgrainge]

Completely untrue - go and do some research james! 2.7 million people in the North East were not far off from sustaining a frequent flight to New York. 2.7 millon people + 5.5 million in Yorkshire [current populations] who require a direct none stop flight will sustain a frequent flight to New York.

The location of the airport is critical! The airport cannot be stuck miles from motorway and main rail on top of a 700ft hill top! Cork/Copenhagen is the empiric proof that population is not being used and is being divided up (despite linking up with football teams and having giant posters!)

Unbelievable. So you actually in your rather unusual mind believe that 7.7 million a year in Yorkshire want to go to America..................

[eggc]

MAN's USA figures are not spectacular at times, and that's fed by various regions. NCL could not hold down a service, neither would LBA, or an alternative in similar area.

Just like MAN cant fill services only LHR can, sometimes you have to accept what you are.

The north can only sustain limited long haul, and that's catered for by MAN no matter how frustrating that maybe for Yorkshire, or Merseyside etc. That will never change now, that boat sailed long ago.

[SWBKCB]

Don't get him started on boats... :E

[ericlday]

Thats so he can get his oar in I suppose !

[Ringwayman]

Do not fib to yourself - millions of Yorkshire and North East passengers are jumping straight on a train to get to MAN which is directly leading to many many marginal routes not being viable


That those routes may not be viable from MAN without encompassing great swathes of the country seems to have escaped your solitary brain cell. You would rather have an airline have 2 unprofitable routes run from the north which would result in those routes ceasing to exist in 6 to 12 months rather than have 1 profitable route from a central locaton.

[pwalhx]

Also for many in Yorkshire it is just as easy to get to Manchester as it is to Leeds/Bradford or Leeds East, he does not speak for everyone who lives in Yorkshire.

[Harry Wayfarers]

LPL etc every year because of the relative ease of getting to those airports that are not built on hill tops in housing estates

LPL isn't built in a housing estate? ... Just how well do you know Speke?

[eggc]

Hmmmm, what are the hundreds of brick things then that people live in right next to the airprort ?

[All names taken]

LEEDS APPROACH
Moving an airport just a short distance can more than triple the passenger throughput.

Since you have made such an extraordinary claim, perhaps you could back it up with some empirical evidence?

As it stands, that must rank as one of the most ludicrous things I have ever read. Try turning up with that one at an Investment Board or a bank's credit committee.


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[Andy_S]

Also, what’s this talk of “moving” the airport? What does that mean exactly? Because I don’t think LBIA is exactly portable. Unless, of course, the plan is to shut LBIA down in favour of development at Church Fenton. But does anyone really think Bridgepoint are going to agree to that?

[paully]

No, but there might be the odd one that thinks they will

[Harry Wayfarers]

there might be the odd one that thinks they will

"Odd" being the apt word!

[Runway 32/14]

All Aboard The Skylark

[Fairdealfrank]

LEEDS APPROACH
Quote:
Moving an airport just a short distance can more than triple the passenger throughput.
Since you have made such an extraordinary claim, perhaps you could back it up with some empirical evidence?

The move from Glasgow-Renfrew to Glasgow-Abbotsinch in the 1960s?

[horatio_b]

Nutts Corner to Aldergrove, also in the 1960s

[Harry Wayfarers]

Ayr/Heathfield to Prestwick?

or:

Trebelzue to St. Mawgan aka Newquay?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

LVPs again at 700 ft amsl again this weekend. Short runway, points in completely the wrong direction, cannot be and will not be extended, very little space for any kind of growth, miles from motorway and main rail, completely wrong geographic location to dominate the catchment - hence virtually no one from your very near 1.4milllion population neighbour using the airport - proven massive passenger leakage from right within your catchment.

Join the dots binocular swingers.

ps can anyone name more than 1 airport in the uk where the man in charge has stated a new airport might be needed in time? Keep watching.

[LBIA]

Yeah LBA was in LVP'S this moring and has been on several occasions over the past week.

I can't see what you problem is as everything has landed, Okay the was a few cancellations Wednesday morning whilst the airport was Snow Closed for 3 hours.

[paully]

Oh do keep up LA..The man from Church Fenton has bought it for housing, amongst other things..

[canberra97]

Well LA is back after such a long time away he is lucky to be alive you know after his in-growing toe nail operation plus it's Sunday and his favourite meal of Fish n Chips await!

Everyone is 'not' looking forward to his consistent posts regarding CF as they tend to be the same every time pushing an agenda which know one really cares about except him.

[chaps1954]

I would much prefer if the CF circuit were full of Jet Provosts or even Provosts but I can`t remember them.

Ian

[Piltdown Man]

LBA is an airport that has done an incredible job expanding over the past few years. But it can not go on for much longer. The runway is dreadful, terminal (check-in, passenger waiting, baggage handling and boarding facilities) is farcical and you brave the traffic on the "bigger" road or wind your way through country lanes and residential roads to keep the wheels turning (unless of course your come from Pool) to get to the place. The topography of nearby land and runway direction regularly place operational limits on the aircraft using the place. So I'm suggesting it has got as far as it is going to go. It might be able to handle a few more people, but not much.

It is an airport designed to serve the people of Leeds and Bradford and the surrounding areas. And it does that well for holidays but for people who want a bit more, you will have to fly to a hub or fly from another airport. You should not expect much more. To jump to the next level means proper access, proper parking, a proper terminal and flatter, smoother runway that points in the right direction. Making a business case to an operator to start an additional service with the current offering will be difficult.

PM

[chaps1954]

That rules CF out then as the runway isn`t even long enough and doesn`t the approach/take off pass
right over the village unless you use runway 14 which is wrong for the winds

Ian

[Piltdown Man]

I think you are right. A huge amount of work would have to be done make Church Fenton useful. You really need 2,300 M of runway. And then you have to build an airport... and some roads. You will also probably have to buy the all the houses that so that you don't get noise complaints. And so on...

Nice idea but (very) deep pockets would be required.

PM

[anothertyke]

Re #2814

Not as difficult as making the case for a new airport!

But a full length taxiway at the Horsforth end plus a greatly improved terminal building plus more aircraft stands would improve peak capacity. I think the future for LBA is more of th same and incremental improvements to deliver that. That's its natural role in the hierarchy until/unless Leeds becomes number two city in England.

[paully]

Piltdown Man has hit the nail firmly on the head..LBA is what it always was, a local airport for the Leeds/Bradford and surrounding areas and a nice place to start and finish your holidays with a couple of international connections bolted on. That is what it is good at and I suspect that`s how the owners intend to keep it and no doubt it suits those with aircraft based there to boot..

For all the rest of world travel there`s Manchester, an hours train ride from Leeds, which is pretty much how most of the catchment area perceive it to be.

[BKS Air Transport]

OR

For all the rest of the world there is a one stop connection, through London, Amsterdam or Dublin. Get a STAR link in to somewhere and the place would have a pretty good offer.

The one hour train ride from Leeds may be insignificant for somebody off for two weeks hols in Florida, but I suspect is important when it comes to foreign businesses looking to invest in the north.

[Piltdown Man]

...but I suspect is important when it comes to foreign businesses looking to invest in the north.

Any potential investors will have an easy ride from virtually anywhere in the world; until a few miles from touchdown. Then the fun starts and it carries on until you are at your final destination. If the turbulence doesn't get them then the rough runway will. And they walk off the plane possibly onto a clapped out dirty airbridge, though a series of modifications, extensions, and add-ons to the immigration desks. They could well wait here for ages, depending on who arrived before them. And this is the first time they might get a smile. At least Border Force and Special Branch are a pretty pleasant bunch. They then wait in a tiny, tired baggage reclaim centre by clapped out baggage baggage belts and hear the loaders puffing and grunting as they load the belts. Out through customs into a tiny meet and greet and then more fun. They might be privileged to wait a bloody age for a bus to the hire car stop or take their lives in their hand and take ride in a dirty cab, wiping their feet as they get out. But if they are really lucky, they will be met by someone and won't believe the price they pay to leave the car park. And then into Leeds traffic...

Tell me, what impression will LBA have just made on this person?

PM

[anothertyke]

On the other hand the story for Leeds origin passengers is--- for a business trip coming back from Paris or Amsterdam, hand baggage, a brisk leg stretch airside, a three minute walk landside within the building, get your mate to pick you up at the Travelodge, five minutes walk down the road hopefully not in the rain, you can be in Leeds centre 45 mins after walking down the aircraft steps. A darn sight better than the big airport experience! Last time I went to MAN, an airport I like, it was an hour from getting off the plane to driving out of the car park.

I do agree the LBA terminal building could do with razing to the ground. But for better or worse this is a commercial game and Bridgepoint have to justify their investments against the projected revenue streams. With Jet2 and Ryanair as their main customers it's never going to be easy.

[Piltdown Man]

anothertyke: Yes, you are totally correct. Small airports offer a certain convenience for their passengers. In fact when it comes to convenience, smaller is better and possibly with a few exceptions, big airports are a pain in the bum. Try LHR - my record taxiing there is 50 minutes. The walk to the reclaim can take the same amount of time. Then how do you escape? Slowly and cheaply or a little quicker and get ripped off?

But in too many ways, LBA is like every other British airport. They are not properly managed. This can be seen by chronic under-investment in both time and money. There is no excuse for litter, dust balls, stinky loos, stained walls etc. This happens because too many managers have nice warm offices, posh shoes and greedy directors. Anything that generates an instant profit or an immediate saving is implemented instantaneously. Things that require effort or will take weeks, months or years to show a return are placed on the back-burner.

Our airports will become better places only when the people who run them realise that they exist to take people from where they don't want to be to somewhere they want to be. Passengers are not looking for an "experience" or to be "inspired" (I think I'm about to throw up) or an "engagement". People are there to catch a bloody plane. I'll suggest each person responsible for a booking does a Price/Timetable/Convenience trade off and books accordingly. The airport can affect the first and last parts of the equation and can influence the middle one. But unfortunately they think of the passenger as the customer rather than the user. The customer is the airline. It is a slight change of focus but an important one. Focus on this and at the same time make sure you have the infrastructure to support this and you will end up with more flights, better prices and a great airport. But as I have said above, most UK airports are managed by the same type of greedy myopic individuals so nothing will change in the near future and airports will continue to be run in they way they are.

PM

ps. If you you are going to walk five minutes, why not walk to the "Free 30 minute" car park?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I personally am totally uninterested on how clean the terminal is or how well any particular airport is run.

The reason why certain airports often appear to be poorly invested in (including the terminal and toilets etc) is because certain airports are not making much money at all!

This is just a symptom of the disease - and this particular disease is building your airport in completely the wrong geographic location to best tap your available catchment.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Piltdown Man has hit the nail firmly on the head..LBA is what it always was, a local airport for the Leeds/Bradford and surrounding areas and a nice place to start and finish your holidays with a couple of international connections bolted on. That is what it is good at and I suspect that`s how the owners intend to keep it and no doubt it suits those with aircraft based there to boot..

For all the rest of world travel there`s Manchester, an hours train ride from Leeds, which is pretty much how most of the catchment area perceive it to be.

I often find knowing is better than suspecting. You could write a million words of what you suspect - and every word could be wrong.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

LBA a local airport? What does this mean? The only reason why it is a 'local airport' is because millions upon millions of potential passengers are put off by its location / inaccessibility.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I think you are right. A huge amount of work would have to be done make Church Fenton useful. You really need 2,300 M of runway. And then you have to build an airport... and some roads. You will also probably have to buy the all the houses that so that you don't get noise complaints. And so on...

Nice idea but (very) deep pockets would be required.

PM

Absolutely astonishing nonsense! I live near Yeadon airport - no one has asked to buy my house! Or at Manchester, Luton, Edinburgh, Leeds East, Kidlington, Swansea etc etc etc

Airports are a fact of modern day life.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Re #2814

Not as difficult as making the case for a new airport!

But a full length taxiway at the Horsforth end plus a greatly improved terminal building plus more aircraft stands would improve peak capacity. I think the future for LBA is more of th same and incremental improvements to deliver that. That's its natural role in the hierarchy until/unless Leeds becomes number two city in England.

And this is where your argument completely falls flat on its backside! Leeds and West Yorkshire [and Yorkshire in General] is a massive city and population - that is why the City's railway station is the 2nd busiest in England outside of London. It is very high up in England's hierarchy, as you put it. Yeadon airport's low passenger figure most certainly does NOT reflect what is possible from this region and is purely down to the airport's highly limiting geographic location combined with its real and perceived inaccessibility as well as its inability to handle certain flights.

[canberra97]

LA

Why don't you just put it to rest, your coming across as very arrogant CONTINOUSLY pushing your own agenda, why don't you put your efforts into contacting your local MP or even running as your local MP because your falling on death ears on this site regarding your posts and to be totally honest I think we have all had enough of them, you personally have hijacked the Leeds forum with your consistent posts which are coming across as pure drivel, you seem a very unhappy person and this site isn't a place to push your own agendas I suggest you see a councillor fo that.

This forum was a far more pleasant place to be when you took your recent week off!

[AndrewH52]

And this is where your argument completely falls flat on its backside! Leeds and West Yorkshire [and Yorkshire in General] is a massive city and population - that is why the City's railway station is the 2nd busiest in England outside of London. It is very high up in England's hierarchy, as you put it. Yeadon airport's low passenger figure most certainly does NOT reflect what is possible from this region and is purely down to the airport's highly limiting geographic location combined with its real and perceived inaccessibility as well as its inability to handle certain flights.

I don't quite see how the population of west Yorkshire (2.16m, hardly "massive") is going to increase by switching commercial airline traffic 15 miles further away from your main centre of population and economic activity?

[chaps1954]

LA It shows how much you don`t know because many houses around Manchester were bought
but mainly when they came up for sale and then were rented out until the land was required which
works well in two ways 1) they lay out less money rather than CP and 2) they then recoup it by
renting out for a number of years and as far as I am aware most airport do the same

[Homo Simpson]

The reason the railway station is busy is because Leeds only has one main station. Nothing to do with some magical population number.
LA you have been asked many times and never given an answer as to how you will shut down Leeds and pay for Leeds East. How are you going to get the airlines to move there.
Your one man show is so full of flaws and unrealistic.

[LBIA]

See Eurowings have applied for 3x weekly Munich slots (afternoon) to start a service to Leeds/Bradford at the recent world slot conference which was held earlier this month in Atlanta.
Let's hope the slots applied for are not in disgize for another route.

[Fairdealfrank]

The reason the railway station is busy is because Leeds only has one main station. Nothing to do with some magical population number.
LA you have been asked many times and never given an answer as to how you will shut down Leeds and pay for Leeds East. How are you going to get the airlines to move there.
Your one man show is so full of flaws and unrealistic.Yes, it's the same tedious and unrealistic nonsense that we hear from those who bang on about Boris Island.

[roverman]

Services from MUC and FRA are generally served by Lufthansa mainline, with the smaller non-hub German cities being served by Eurowings or Germanwings. That is how it works to MAN.

[Flightrider]

...but not how it looks like it's going to work on Munich services to Leeds, Liverpool and Glasgow judging by the slots for which Eurowings applied for next summer!

[chaps1954]

Obviously tourist market as not suitable for the business community

[ramondicarrera]

Here we going again.....Trains to LBA !!!! Is it the forth or fifth time in modern history this has been promised?...Thoughts ?

Leeds Bradford Airport railway station one of three planned - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38206075)

[anothertyke]

Thoughts

1. This will please Leeds Approach. Not.

2. It's doubtful if this will be feasible without the Link Road option one. The local roads are not good.

3. The level of the railway just before the tunnel is probably 30 metres below the level of the surrounding fields. It will be an expensive job in a constricted site. Getting your bags up some big ramps will be interesting.

4. I'm not sure what the zoning is that side of the airport but possibly green belt land.

5. I wonder what proportion of LBA traffic the model predicts will use train and bus. The park and ride aspect could be useful though.

Overall--- by no means a done deal. I wonder what Greg Mulholland and Stuart Andrew think.

So--- by no means certain.

[jamesgrainge]

When will our planners and politicians stop being so thick. What is the point of putting it a mile from the airport. That is neither one nor the other. Places like Schipol and CDG have train stations directly below the airport. Honestly, I despair.

[Andy_S]

Thoughts? Well, the immediate one is that it is not actually an "airport" station as such. It's a Parkway type station with a Park and Ride facility. Secondly, nothing has been "promised"; it's just a proposal. Thirdly, it's not fully funded. Fourthly, even if approved by the council, it needs to be sent to the Dept of Transport for further scrutiny.

When will our planners and politicians stop being so thick. What is the point of putting it a mile from the airport. That is neither one nor the other. Places like Schipol and CDG have train stations directly below the airport. Honestly, I despair.

It's a mile from the airport, because that's where the existing railway line is. To build a spur to the airport itself would be hugely expensive. With the greatest of respect, Schiphol and CDG are in a very different league to LBA.

[Fairdealfrank]

Here we going again.....Trains to LBA !!!! Is it the forth or fifth time in modern history this has been promised?...Thoughts ?

Leeds Bradford Airport railway station one of three planned - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38206075)


When will our planners and politicians stop being so thick. What is the point of putting it a mile from the airport. That is neither one nor the other. Places like Schipol and CDG have train stations directly below the airport. Honestly, I despair.

back in 1966, there was a plan to have a railway from Heathrow to Feltham, on the main line south of the airport. Guess what, it still hasn't been built.


It's a mile from the airport, because that's where the existing railway line is. To build a spur to the airport itself would be hugely expensive. With the greatest of respect, Schiphol and CDG are in a very different league to LBA.

Realistically, the station does have to be on the airport, not near the airport, if not the journey will be no quicker than the existing bus service. If its too expensive, it won't happen.

[Flightrider]

Luton seems to do just fine with a parkway station at the bottom of the hill, which would otherwise require an enormous feat of civil engineering to put a rail link directly into the terminal. Similarities with Leeds at every level, really.

[jamesgrainge]

Thoughts? Well, the immediate one is that it is not actually an "airport" station as such. It's a Parkway type station with a Park and Ride facility. Secondly, nothing has been "promised"; it's just a proposal. Thirdly, it's not fully funded. Fourthly, even if approved by the council, it needs to be sent to the Dept of Transport for further scrutiny.



It's a mile from the airport, because that's where the existing railway line is. To build a spur to the airport itself would be hugely expensive. With the greatest of respect, Schiphol and CDG are in a very different league to LBA.

It's irrelevant the league, they were just two airports off the top of my head. The basic point, if you have to get a bus to the station then a train from somewhere, then a change to another train, then a bus to the airport, all the while managing two kids and 6 suitcases, you will just take the car to whatever airport is cheaper and pay the parking. Therefore making the cost of the initial station more expensive when it doesn't get used. At least if you get a train directly to the terminal and walk to check in it becomes somewhat more convenient.

[anothertyke]

Yes I'd predict train and bus will be lucky to achieve a 1 per cent market share of LBA travellers. At that type of airport the vast majority are going to use car or taxi anyway and another public transport option doesn't figure. It might do better with employees at and around the airport. There will be a small market to/from Leeds city centre for whom train can avoid the congestion and unreliability of the A65 and A660. As said above it's a parkway station with a bus to the airport and will stand or fall on that basis.

In my view there is a big difference between the arrangements at Luton and Stansted in perception terms. Two lots of waiting time at Luton, bags to lug. Not that great really.

[rpmac]

It is also to be a Park and Ride, something Edinburgh has already. A new link road from the A65 to the A658 is also in the plans which will make it easier to drive to the airport but also a P&R if coming from Harrogate. Access to LBA has been an issue for years as providing a motorway is not feasible so the proposals will address this, especially as the airport expects to see traffic double in 10-12 years. By which time a tram/train into the airport might be built.

[Big Tudor]

I don't get this obsession with a railway station having to be built at the airport. As has been mentioned already, EMA, LPL, LTN, BRS, GLA, EDI, etc, all seem to manage quite nicely with a Parkway concept. Even LGW from railway to the North Terminal is a bit of a hike. There is no way the finances will be available to build a line and a station to the airport, so a station nearby with frequent bus connections is the only solution for LBA.

[jamesgrainge]

I don't get this obsession with a railway station having to be built at the airport. As has been mentioned already, EMA, LPL, LTN, BRS, GLA, EDI, etc, all seem to manage quite nicely with a Parkway concept. Even LGW from railway to the North Terminal is a bit of a hike. There is no way the finances will be available to build a line and a station to the airport, so a station nearby with frequent bus connections is the only solution for LBA.

Its not an obsession. Its a simple theory, if you go to the door more people will be inclined to use it. If you stop a mile away, less people will be inclined to use it. The idea is to increase passenger numbers, not simply accommodate the current usage better. In this day and age, an investment has to be able to pay for itself. A decade ago/20/30 money was flowing into public services, now not so much.

[Harry Wayfarers]

I don't get this obsession with a railway station having to be built at the airport. As has been mentioned already, EMA, LPL, LTN, BRS, GLA, EDI, etc, all seem to manage quite nicely with a Parkway concept.When I lived in both the east and west midlands BHX became my, very much so, preferred airport of travel because of the Birmingham International train station which, I hasten to add, isn't actually at the airport

I would park my car for free at a train station one stop down the line and take the train in/out of the airport ... it worked well.

[Andy_S]

Luton seems to do just fine with a parkway station at the bottom of the hill, which would otherwise require an enormous feat of civil engineering to put a rail link directly into the terminal. Similarities with Leeds at every level, really.

In actual fact, planning is already under way for a light rail link between Luton Parkway and a station at LTN itself. The difference is that LTN already has a passenger throughput several times greater than LBA. That and the fact the nearby rail line is the Midland Main Line with connections to the Midlands, London and South East England makes the project economics far more attractive.

[chaps1954]

Think anything less than 10M will struggle because of cost. Luton is quite interesting as it is a fair climb from the interchange as would Leeds .

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Thoughts

1. This will please Leeds Approach. Not.

2. It's doubtful if this will be feasible without the Link Road option one. The local roads are not good.

3. The level of the railway just before the tunnel is probably 30 metres below the level of the surrounding fields. It will be an expensive job in a constricted site. Getting your bags up some big ramps will be interesting.

4. I'm not sure what the zoning is that side of the airport but possibly green belt land.

5. I wonder what proportion of LBA traffic the model predicts will use train and bus. The park and ride aspect could be useful though.

Overall--- by no means a done deal. I wonder what Greg Mulholland and Stuart Andrew think.

So--- by no means certain.

An area of land with associated and nearby railway halt (ie parkway as is the plan) will be hugely more valuable to [potential] house builders / industrial estate occupants. People ask how and why a certain company would sell an old unreliable banger? - if they can make a bit of money selling it while part owning a new Ferrari!

So no tyke i'm not upset as the 'news' is exactly as I've foretold. We do not build multi multi £Million railway spurs to white elephants in the fog that cannot even work properly!

Happy Christmas

[SWBKCB]

So Bridgepoint don't see Leeds East as a rival, but as an opportunity to change horses while making money by developing a piece of land made more valuable by the investments of the misguided (mis-led?) people of Yorkshire?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds City Region is the Civil Aviation laughing stock of Europe because of its short crossgale airport on the apex of a hill top in a B road housing estate!

Those people that try to tell you "aren't we doing well!" with best ever 3.5 million pax are the clowns in the ring!

DSA without any sort of population catchment to even use will catch up to LBA simply because of this rank and historic shambolic unsuitability of the airport.

Then where will Leeds be as a city? - It's airport will be Leeds South in Doncaster - an hour away! Back the right horse or you will not have a horse.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

So Bridgepoint don't see Leeds East as a rival, but as an opportunity to change horses while making money by developing a piece of land made more valuable by the investments of the misguided (mis-led?) people of Yorkshire?

Misguided?? That railway halt will help everyone. That is the beauty of it! It will help LBA. And in the future it will connect inhabitants of the region.

[chaps1954]

Who woke up the doormouse

[INKJET]

Leeds is what 90% bucket n spade or hen/shag parties ?? few solo travelers, so any transport method that becomes more expensive as more people in a group use it will naturally revert to a car or a cab.

The park way is a sham, few use it at EMA I think even the free bus shuttle that launched it have stopped now ( stand to be corrected) what you will end up with is a park n ride for the people of north Leeds to travel into Leeds, on top of which the buses like 757 will stop and they'll just take you to the park n ride, they run at a loss on subsidies, LBA will then be able to tick the ' green box' the last thing LBA want is you to turn up on public transport, far better (for them) to take your car park money, if they lost that they would have to increase fee's to Ryanair & Jet2 guess what Ryanair would do?

It would be like a turkey voting for early Xmas, this parkway nonsense is perfect for Bridgeport, they are not stupid ( unlike the clowns in Leeds city council) they know few will use it even if it went into or under the airport and no one will fund it.

Leeds have been predicting 5m a year for over a decade, Leeds Approach is not wrong when he says it's in the wrong place, but it won't move, it's too big to move too small to reach out beyond its Holiday routes and too close to Manchester to grow long haul and that's without even thinking about its runway/weather limitations.

So stick with what you've got, it's a good little airport for its target market

[AndrewH52]

Leeds City Region is the Civil Aviation laughing stock of Europe because of its short crossgale airport on the apex of a hill top in a B road housing estate!

Those people that try to tell you "aren't we doing well!" with best ever 3.5 million pax are the clowns in the ring!

DSA without any sort of population catchment to even use will catch up to LBA simply because of this rank and historic shambolic unsuitability of the airport.

Then where will Leeds be as a city? - It's airport will be Leeds South in Doncaster - an hour away! Back the right horse or you will not have a horse.
LEEDS APPROACH I'd be interested to see any evidence at all you have to back up the statement about Leeds City Region being a laughing stock at all regardless of any perceived shortcomings you believe LBA has. Given the issues of fog the airport owners have done what they can and installed CAT 111b ILS - if not all operators then train and equip their crews and aircraft with the ability to use that bit of kit, it's hardly the airport's fault is it?

LBA has been operating continuously for 85 years. 'Shambolic' doesn't survive for 85 years.

[Piltdown Man]

The training of crews up to CAT III is not the issue. The limiting factors are generally the crosswinds and lack of runway. These are limiting factors because of where the airport is. So accepting this airport is what it is, nothing much will change so long as the airport doesn't screw the airlines. Do that and they will move. But also don't expect too much in the way of intercontinental destinations, the place is not up to it. I would also not hold my breath for a rail link. The airport rake cash in from parking and a proper rail link would reduce the airport's income. But if the airport has a real problem, it's the condition of the runway. I don't think there is a worse one in Europe. But being concrete, it's difficult to do overnight repairs yet some serious work will have to be done before long. How that will be accomplished will be very interesting.

PM

[BKS Air Transport]

Ah, now that bit's easy, the fiendishly cunning plan has obviously slipped you by:

Close the runway for six weeks...divert flights to Church Fenton...airlines and passengers so pleased they refuse to return. Mission accomplished!!

[RAFAT]

PM - I completely agree, I've been at Leeds for years and the runway is indeed the worst of any large regional airport in Europe. Many times in the past, whilst taxying, I've advised ATC of small piles of loose rubble that need attention, both on and off the runway.

[N707ZS]

Just send them to DTVA where most of them come from!

[LBIA]

Heard some talk today regards Thomson summer 2017 based flights

After a 2 year gap can anyone confirm if they are using a Canadian Sunwing Airlines Boeing 737-800 aircraft for the LBA based aircraft flight programme instead of one of Thomson Airways own aircraft?

[BFS BHD]

New route to Wroclaw (2 Weekly) & new winter service to Murcia (2 Weekly).

Welcome to Ryanair! (http://corporate.ryanair.com/news/news/170215-ryanair-launches-record-leeds-bradford-winter-2017-schedule/?market=en)

[LAX_LHR]

Seems Vueling have ended LBA-BCN. Flights no longer bookable on website or in GDS.

[LBIA]

Shame if true about Vueling, Saying that the planned flight schedule for this summer was quite bad.

Good job the Leeds - Barcelona route is still well covered by both Jet2 and Monarch.

[LAX_LHR]

It's does seem true LBIA. The home page booking of Vueling gives the impression there are flights bookable later in the summer, but when you click on those dates, it brings blank results.

[2Planks]

Looks like Easy have dropped Geneva for winter 17/18 (going by this morning's release)

[LBIA]

Looks like Easy have dropped Geneva for winter 17/18 (going by this morning's release)

Yeap now confirmed on the airports twitter feed that Easyjet wont be returning to LBA, Leaving Jet2 operating GEV route 6x weekly next winter 17/18

[LEEDS APPROACH]

About as predictable announcement as it gets (just like with Vueling/SAS/Aurigny/EI Cork/LS Sardinia,Toulouse,Lubeck etc etc/PIA/FLYBE SOU). This airport is in completely the wrong geographic location to encourage the potential catchment to use it. Hence half empty planes. Millions upon millions upon millions of Yorkshire folk [many living within 10 miles of LBA] are jumping on the motorway and train to an efficient and well located airport in neighbouring regions. If it wasn't for certain deals to keep airlines onboard contrary to natural demand [from multiple airports] there would be a much clearer picture of the abject failure of Yorkshire civil aviation that helps other regions and the private companies that operate there. It absolutely stinks.

The demand is simply not there for an airport in this location as route after route after route has shown when they are not obscured by 'secret' deals. Change the location [just a little] and you will completely and I mean completely change the equation. The airport MUST be on the main motorway and fast rail network.

The region is a civil aviation joke and a complete scandalous and needless embarrassment. WYCA are supporting the North West rather than Yorkshire.

The North East of England including Yorkshire and Leeds City Region will continue to lag well behind the rest of the Country whereas it has the very real potential to have a 10-15 million passenger airport.

ps the only thing more ridiculous than the airport is the local grown men and women spotters/enthusiasts that are in complete and utter denial about the place and play right into Manchester Airport's hands. The Yorkshire people really are there own worst enemies because they do not think.

[paully]

You're the one not thinking....The Mods must have just allowed you back on and straight into another nonsense rant... Methinks you really are testing their patience, because you're testing ours..Now pipe down and grow up..

[rpmac]

Leeds Approach: Utter rubbish once again. Airports in the north, including LBA are all doing very nicely and growing year by year, improving facilities and adding destinations.

[canberra97]

I wondered where the 'dormouse' had been, his first post after his 'suspension' and the same old same, talk about having an agenda.

[LBIA]

Leeds Approach: guess you haven't seen the winter 2016/17 passengers figures for LBA yet then?

Here's last 4 months.

NOV 16 - 180,453 +10.52%
DEC 16 - 198,118 +23.85%
JAN 17 - 175 255 +16.57%
FEB 17 - 203,094 +18.9%

The fiscal year total, with March still to come, totals 3,434,633, that compared to 3,260,010 for the same 11 months last year, So its an overall increase of 5.36%..

[chaps1954]

10 to 15 million no I don`t think so. The thing is a lot of routes can only sustain one departure point
in the north of the country and as we know that is always going to be Manchester, just look at the thinner routes also people want flexibility, the days of everyone going on a Saturday or Wednesday
on an inclusive holiday have moved on.

Ian

[AndrewH52]

Leeds Approach, one thing you fail to grasp is that research (including the recent Transport for the North study on International Connectivity) demonstrates that the population of Yorkshire - and Sheffield as it happens - have a much lower propensity to fly than areas like Greater Manchester, Cheshire and Warrington and Liverpool. As such, the size of the catchment or the location of the airport itself, doesn't make much of a difference. Basically Yorkshire folk don't fly that much. As Chaps1954 suggests, 10-15 million passengers is a pipe dream...

[jamesgrainge]

I didn't realise he had been suspended. However, no matter what you think of him, he certainly gets the thread going again. It's been pretty dead round here for months :ok:

[rpmac]

So where else in a hilly part of the world that is near to Leeds and Bradford. Also there has been an airport there for many decades, including the AVRO factory during the war for Lancasters and the like, so the decision was made a long time ago.

[Fairdealfrank]

LEEDS APPROACH

Been through LBA several times over the years, can't see exactly what's wrong with it.

[Harry Wayfarers]

ps the only thing more ridiculous than the airport is the local grown men and women spotters/enthusiasts that are in complete and utter denial about the place and play right into Manchester Airport's hands.

I'm not a local man/woman enthusiast or spotter, please check my location slightly to the left, so where would you like me to start to explain regarding the cr@p you utter? :)

[Teevee]

Leeds Approach, one thing you fail to grasp is that research (including the recent Transport for the North study on International Connectivity) demonstrates that the population of Yorkshire - and Sheffield as it happens - have a much lower propensity to fly than areas like Greater Manchester, Cheshire and Warrington and Liverpool. As such, the size of the catchment or the location of the airport itself, doesn't make much of a difference. Basically Yorkshire folk don't fly that much. As Chaps1954 suggests, 10-15 million passengers is a pipe dream...

Andrew we have no need! What's the point when we have Scarborough, Brid and Filey?:p:p

[Andy_S]

ps the only thing more ridiculous than the airport is the local grown men and women spotters/enthusiasts that are in complete and utter denial about the place and play right into Manchester Airport's hands. The Yorkshire people really are there own worst enemies because they do not think.

And in just two sentences, you reveal why it's impossible to take you seriously.

The sense of entitlement and the very obvious resentment that someone else has something you don't.

[LGS6753]

Leeds Bradford Airport reopens after controlled explosion on suspicious package (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/14/leeds-bradford-airport-reopens-controlled-explosion-suspicious/)

[Andy_S]

Don't tell Leeds Approach; he'll claim that this simply couldn't have happened at Church Fenton...........:E

[canberra97]

Perhaps Leeds Approach was the suspicious package and hopefully he has been dealt with in a fitting way by the controlled explosion.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach, one thing you fail to grasp is that research (including the recent Transport for the North study on International Connectivity) demonstrates that the population of Yorkshire - and Sheffield as it happens - have a much lower propensity to fly than areas like Greater Manchester, Cheshire and Warrington and Liverpool. As such, the size of the catchment or the location of the airport itself, doesn't make much of a difference. Basically Yorkshire folk don't fly that much. As Chaps1954 suggests, 10-15 million passengers is a pipe dream...

Firstly we are not talking propensity to fly as I am directly looking at those who ARE flying, where they reside, where they are flying from and where they are flying to. Yorkshire and Humberside needlessly loses millions upon millions of flying passengers. I am looking at figures. When Yorkshire has a BETTER located and functioning airport the propensity to fly will increase.

Stating that the location of an airport allied to its accessibility and importantly the location and accessibility of its direct competitors makes no difference to the numbers flying is quite clearly proven utter garbage.

What we can all agree on is there is a better location for a Yorkshire airport. ps as far as I know I've not been banned on here its just you have a little more time to post on here than me! :)

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Not really appropriate to joke about what happened at LBA last night. Glad it has been resolved. Vigilance.

[wowzz]

Having just flown out of LBA for the first time in a few years, it appears to be bursting at the seams. No seats, congested gate areas, access to aircraft via open-air corridors etc. Given that I am in the fortunate position of being able to choose which airport I can use, LBA goes to second from bottom of my avoid list, just above STN.

[AndrewH52]

Firstly we are not talking propensity to fly as I am directly looking at those who ARE flying, where they reside, where they are flying from and where they are flying to. Yorkshire and Humberside needlessly loses millions upon millions of flying passengers. I am looking at figures. When Yorkshire has a BETTER located and functioning airport the propensity to fly will increase.

Stating that the location of an airport allied to its accessibility and importantly the location and accessibility of its direct competitors makes no difference to the numbers flying is quite clearly proven utter garbage.

What we can all agree on is there is a better location for a Yorkshire airport. ps as far as I know I've not been banned on here its just you have a little more time to post on here than me! :)

I'm looking at figures too. It's how you calculate propensity to fly. You don't seem to understand that folk from your area don't fly as much as folk from other areas do. Where those that do fly choose to fly from is another matter but does not fall into the realms of "millions and millions"

[LBIA]

What a load of bullocks.

Overal in March 2017 pax Figures were up 12% at 247681 - for the year 3,695,269 up 6.2%.

Domestic routes:
Heathrow up 7% - still BA's fastest growing domestic service from LHR
Glasgow up 65%
Newquay - 1,643

I'll say no more

[Piltdown Man]

Wowzz has summed up the place perfectly. LBA is a crap airport. It is poorly located, the runway is dreadful and points the wrong way, the terminal building is not fit for purpose and it has a poor access. That it has done as well as is a surprise and unfortunately, it is suffering from its own success. Quite what has to be done with it I'm not sure but during the summer it runs at over 100% meaning that if the wrong thing breaks, the inevitable ordure arrives pretty swiftly.

PM

[paully]

Having just flown in and out of Leeds I agree that its just about at capacity in the summer months. They are presently putting more desperately needed seats in place and doing up the ground floor which has closed some of the eating and drinking facilities there.Making it even more cramped. Why they didnt do it in the quieter winter months is beyond belief though:ugh:

Leeds is and always will be a bucket and spade, with a few city routes bolted on airport. It does that well, but that`s all it is. It isnt going to relocate anytime soon either. Certainly would`nt fly out of there in the winter far too unreliable weather conditions. Its also often very pricey out of there, cheaper via Man or Lpl and with excellent train connections very easy to get to. The last twice we have had 8am check ins and stayed overnight at the Premier Inn rather than risk two of Leeds overcrowded ring roads at peak traffic times. It is what it is

[pug]

The suggestion that people in Yorkshire and Humberside don't fly if the routes arent available from a local airport is baffling and laughable..

[Harry Wayfarers]

Lpl and with excellent train connections very easy to get to

LPL doesn't have a train station, I used to take a bus from Garston station to the airport, so I guess via Lime Street or another big station to connect to Garston, but then the buses wouldn't go thru Speke housing estate after dark for fear of losing their windows!

[Airbanda]

LPL doesn't have a train station, I used to take a bus from Garston station to the airport, so I guess via Lime Street or another big station to connect to Garston, but then the buses wouldn't go thru Speke housing estate after dark for fear of losing their windows!

Connections now are via Liverpool South Parkway, approx 2 miles from terminal.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Connections now are via Liverpool South Parkway, approx 2 miles from terminal.

3.3 miles from the airport and one goes past Garston rail station on the way to the airport :)

[Northsky]

Garston and allerton stations were demolished more than 10 years ago to make way for Liverpool South Parkway, which brings together the merseyrail network, long distance trains (including direct from leeds), the local bus network and a direct shuttle to link with the airport. It was built to look the same as the airport terminal and displays flight check in desk numbers and departure times in the station concourse. Something like this would be good for LBA, it's just the geography doesn't lend itself well to it.

[paully]

Obviously a long time since you were in Liverpool Harry..A much different place today. Great City. Have used the train many times to and from there sucessfully. Always get off at South Parkway and get a minicab down to the Airport. Works for me:ok:

[SWBKCB]

Interesting...

David Laws appointed as new chief executive at Leeds Bradford Airport (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus) (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/15310204.New_chief_executive_appointed_at_Leeds_Bradford_Air port/)

[LBIA]

So see the based Sunwing B738 has gone tech.
As is usual case Thomson's are bussing this morings delayed Corfu pax over the M62 to fly from MAN.

Be interesting to see how they recover rest of the schedule?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I'm looking at figures too. It's how you calculate propensity to fly. You don't seem to understand that folk from your area don't fly as much as folk from other areas do. Where those that do fly choose to fly from is another matter but does not fall into the realms of "millions and millions"

Quite clearly Andrew you do not actually know what you are talking about!

EVERY year 5 million (and rising at an alarming rate) Yorkshire and Humberside residents are flying from Manchester airport. Not to Beijing but to Alicante etc.

For every 3 persons in a queue at Manchester airport who reside in the North West there will be 1 person who resides in Yorkshire and Humberside.

This is just 1 competitor airport [man]! Many 100s of thousands of Yorkshire and Humberside residents are flying from LPL, EMA, NCL, BHX etc etc EVERY year.

This ONE direction leakage is purely down to the location, amount and functionality of airports within Yorkshire and Humber(side).

Of course the propensity to fly is slightly higher in the North West than Yorkshire and the Humber - Because if you have some thing that is able to be used - you are more likely to use it. People who live in the Alps are more likely to ski than those that live in the Sahara! If you are a company that needs to ski you most certainly do not base yourself in the Sahara! Not rocket science kids! Give the East of the Pennines 1 sensible civil aviation solution and those propensities will equalise.

The propensities to fly will only stretch further apart while Yorkshire and the Humber has an utterly failing civil aviation strategy of having too many restricted airports in completely the wrong location.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

What a load of bullocks.

Overal in March 2017 pax Figures were up 12% at 247681 - for the year 3,695,269 up 6.2%.

Domestic routes:
Heathrow up 7% - still BA's fastest growing domestic service from LHR
Glasgow up 65%
Newquay - 1,643

I'll say no more

Sorry LBIA you are in complete and utter denial about LBA!

Figures going up [very often] mean absolutely zero! It is called induced demand. Blackpool's figures went through the roof. Teesside's figures went through the roof, Doncaster's figures are going through the roof! It is NOT natural underlying demand due to where your airport is located, how well it is surface connected or how efficiently it can function.

Do you think airline x comes banging on LBA's or DSA's door saying can we fly to Bratislava or Berlin for example? No - that was the 1980s! No it is about monetary deals - when those deals finish then you see the real TRUE underlying demand. Y and H is losing millions upon million of passengers from right under its nose so when airports do deals you will indeed see spikes of induced demand. It is unsustainable, unnatural demand - hence why so many routes and airlines start routes and then stop them in Yorkshire and Humberside. Some like Turin don't even begin.

Yorkshire and Humberside does indeed have a very large TRUE natural underlying demand for civil aviation flying but not from 2 terribly located airports that are not only fighting against each other but are also up against incredibly well connected and efficient competitor airports.

The true demand for civil aviation flying - LBA v MAN (as can be seen over many years) is 1:7 but the true demand for Yorkshire and the Humber v The North West is 1:1.8 (and I am being very very conservative with those figures) - So don't be surprised when you see induced passenger spikes from airports within Y and H.

[Cazza_fly]

Yorkshire and Humberside does indeed have a very large TRUE natural underlying demand for civil aviation flying but not from 2 terribly located airports that are not only fighting against each other but are also up against incredibly well connected and efficient competitor airports.


I really don't get this DSA vs LBA "competition" thing. They really are not. Not in the way people on here seem to suggest anyway. They are actually poles apart in that respect, including catchment areas too (despite being in the same county).

However rightly said, there other airports that LBA and DSA are fighting against and yes of course transport and connectivity is a factor. For DSA, the South Yorkshire / Humberside and Nottinghamamshire catchment areas are choosing EMA and MAN as the alternate competing airport. LBA would be way at the bottom of that list.

[Harry Wayfarers]

there other airports that LBA and DSA are fighting against

They are not fighting against except in the mind of a spotter, LHR offer their product, LGW theirs, STN similar, MAN is the metropolis airport of the north and then there are regionals all over the place, including LBA and DSA.

Is anybody suggesting that STN is poaching NWI's potential passengers ... No of course they're not because they're two different markets and nobody really cares a sh1t ... Alas in Yorkshire it seems you have a renegade spotter :)

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I really don't get this DSA vs LBA "competition" thing. They really are not. Not in the way people on here seem to suggest anyway. They are actually poles apart in that respect, including catchment areas too (despite being in the same county).

However rightly said, there other airports that LBA and DSA are fighting against and yes of course transport and connectivity is a factor. For DSA, the South Yorkshire / Humberside and Nottinghamamshire catchment areas are choosing EMA and MAN as the alternate competing airport. LBA would be way at the bottom of that list.

You miss the point Cazza. Both airports have of course their own population catchment but dividing a population catchment reduces the ability for routes and airports to be sustainable. Having too many airports in a region will completely hold that region back and boosts the competition regions. You need to pool your resources - hence why Nottingham, Leicester and Derby do not have an airport each - they would all be unsustainable. Critical mass of passengers at a single airport reduces fares, increases routes and their frequency. Yorkshire used to have a route to DUS but because 2 airports needed the same passengers for the route to be viable- now we do not have that route at all. MAN wins. BTW they own EMA that should now have 2 million more passengers [true demand].

[LEEDS APPROACH]

They are not fighting against except in the mind of a spotter, LHR offer their product, LGW theirs, STN similar, MAN is the metropolis airport of the north and then there are regionals all over the place, including LBA and DSA.

Is anybody suggesting that STN is poaching NWI's potential passengers ... No of course they're not because they're two different markets and nobody really cares a sh1t ... Alas in Yorkshire it seems you have a renegade spotter :)

Stansted takes many millions of passengers from East Anglia every year. Flights that are not sustainable from Norwich but of course are sustainable from Stansted with its much much bigger population catchment. It's so so simple Harry.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

It's absolutely astonishing! You simply do not understand how airports work! How routes need passengers to sustainably work. This is exactly how MAN is going through the roof right now - encouraging every single passenger they can get from anywhere to use their airport. Just think of the direct opposite to what is going on in Yorkshire.

[Harry Wayfarers]

Stansted takes many millions of passengers from East Anglia every yearStansted is in Essex and that is in East Anglia!

It's so so simple Harry

Not simple enough for you ... Obviously!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Stansted is in Essex and that is in East Anglia!



Not simple enough for you ... Obviously!

The point being that Stansted uses millions of passengers that live in Norwich. Flights that are not sustainable from Norwich but are sustainable from Stansted due to their relative population catchments.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

5 million Yorkshire and Humber residents (each and every year) spending their hard earned wages (some of the lowest wages in the country) on getting to Manchester airport and sometimes overnighting there to fly routes that are 100% viable and sustainable from a well located, accessible and fully functioning airport within Yorkshire. MAN is just 1 competitor airport! 100s of thousands of Y and H folk travel to LHR and LGW to fly each year - 100s of thousands more than those that travel to those airports from the much more populous North West. The North East and Yorkshire govt aviation travel tax.

[SWBKCB]

Flights that are not sustainable from Norwich but are sustainable from Stansted due to their relative population catchments.

Which is what happens with MAN and the other airports in the North of England.

Wouldn't any notional Greater Yorkshire International airport merely split the market in the north and make services from both airports unviable, in the same way you berate LBA and DSA?

[wowzz]

Landed at LBA yesterday at 15:05. Expected the worst at Border Control, but through in 5 minutes. Hey ho, I thought, this is looking good! Then waited 40 minutes for our luggage!
By the time we picked our car up, it was gone 16:00, and we hit the Leeds ring road traffic. An hour to get to the A1. However you look at it,the road connections are abysmal.
Next time I'm using BHX.

[canberra97]

Who's rattled LEEDS APPROACH?

You don't see him post every day but when he does so doesn't he continue to go on with the same age old message, he really has got one hell of an agenda and carries on explaining it in every post he makes, he seems so incensed by it all that it's becoming a complete farce.

[zed3]

I lived 42 years in the Netherlands and 45mins drive from Dusseldorf, worldwide connections built up over the years along with the road structure. We now live in Scarborough and the difference (OK along with the industrial importance) is marked. From home to LBA is about the same distance but takes 90 mins on a good day. The problem is around Leeds where if one arrives slightly late in the evening or has to pick up pax the roads are logjammed. Once away from the Leeds area, the A1M and A64 are manageable. I will stick with LBA because KLM are great and reliable and Schiphol is miles better than LHR. Manchester is just that bit too far and the M62 is a big problem most days when trying to make a flight. OK the train service to MAN is good for us but LBA is the best of a bad lot. When will the Leeds City Councillors and Yorkshire (Forward?!) County Council wake up to the problem.

[paully]

They do know the problems Zed but tbh there is no way to fix it. Too much housing between the airport and the city means more cars every year. People from the catchment area use Manchester and Liverpool for 2 reasons. Firstly ease of getting there, like you excellent rail links from Scarborough etc but secondly, cost. LBA must be one of the most expensive airports to get flights out from, unless you drop lucky. The otherside of the Pennines usually has more competition on routes and a lower range of price

Gone are the days when local people always used their local airport. Different world, but sadly not all are aware of that fact

[zed3]

Paully, agree, except that the KLM fares from LBA are very good compared with KLM Teesside and Humberside... probably the oil/chemical industry pull. We avoid MAN just for the distance and the KLM fares are probably similar to LBA. It's just the hassle of train/bus connections and uncertainty of making a fight that pushes me to use a car. Where we live is great and LBA is useful and the best option... but.

[AndrewH52]

Quite clearly Andrew you do not actually know what you are talking about!

EVERY year 5 million (and rising at an alarming rate) Yorkshire and Humberside residents are flying from Manchester airport. Not to Beijing but to Alicante etc.

For every 3 persons in a queue at Manchester airport who reside in the North West there will be 1 person who resides in Yorkshire and Humberside.

This is just 1 competitor airport [man]! Many 100s of thousands of Yorkshire and Humberside residents are flying from LPL, EMA, NCL, BHX etc etc EVERY year.

This ONE direction leakage is purely down to the location, amount and functionality of airports within Yorkshire and Humber(side).

Of course the propensity to fly is slightly higher in the North West than Yorkshire and the Humber - Because if you have some thing that is able to be used - you are more likely to use it. People who live in the Alps are more likely to ski than those that live in the Sahara! If you are a company that needs to ski you most certainly do not base yourself in the Sahara! Not rocket science kids! Give the East of the Pennines 1 sensible civil aviation solution and those propensities will equalise.

The propensities to fly will only stretch further apart while Yorkshire and the Humber has an utterly failing civil aviation strategy of having too many restricted airports in completely the wrong location.

LEEDS APPROACH, you don't do numbers too well do you? I'd love to know the sources for some of your 'statistics '...

By your logic, practically the whole population of Yorks and Humber is choosing to fly from Manchester. I'm not sure then where the Yorkshire folk flying from other airports (including Leeds and Doncaster)are appearing from...

[zed3]

With statistics one can prove anything, that's why managers always win : ( ... and I hated that. Logic goes out of the door. Yorkshire folk, once a year or so, will use LBA for bucket and spade routes but long haul is a different thing. A lot also depends on airline loyalty. We are off to the US in September but I don't particularly like the cattle pen type of Virgin Upper Class seat. We are flying KLM and with that and other, previously stated, points taken into account. I worked in aviation (ATC), so have a little knowledge and it's my money after all.

[Mooncrest]

Who's rattled LEEDS APPROACH?

You don't see him post every day but when he does so doesn't he continue to go on with the same age old message, he really has got one hell of an agenda and carries on explaining it in every post he makes, he seems so incensed by it all that it's becoming a complete farce.

Dear Moderators. We are all allowed an opinion but frankly, the one-joke act known as LEEDS APPROACH has gone beyond tiresome and is now plain annoying. Can you rein him in please ?

[jamesgrainge]

Landed at LBA yesterday at 15:05. Expected the worst at Border Control, but through in 5 minutes. Hey ho, I thought, this is looking good! Then waited 40 minutes for our luggage!
By the time we picked our car up, it was gone 16:00, and we hit the Leeds ring road traffic. An hour to get to the A1. However you look at it,the road connections are abysmal.
Next time I'm using BHX.

Travels on bank holiday Friday evening. Complains the road connection is poor.

[GdLSF]

Landed at LBA yesterday at 15:05. Expected the worst at Border Control, but through in 5 minutes. Hey ho, I thought, this is looking good! Then waited 40 minutes for our luggage!
By the time we picked our car up, it was gone 16:00, and we hit the Leeds ring road traffic. An hour to get to the A1. However you look at it,the road connections are abysmal.
Next time I'm using BHX.

Drop down Pool Bank on to the A659 Tadcaster road, A1 in 30 mins. I wouldn't drive round Leeds Ring Road at any time.

[zed3]

GdLSF... that's the route I use, the pain is around Harewood House area. The Leeds ring road I haven't touched since my first run that way... all those roundabouts. Those were my main points about LBA.

[4Screwaircrew]

Positioning in from my base to operate from LBA was a pain, the roads are just not up to the job, even coming in from the hotel was fraught with danger of delays.

[wowzz]

Travels on bank holiday Friday evening. Complains the road connection is poor.

If the luggage came out on time, I would be travelling late afternoon. Regardless, the road connections are crappy. I also lived in Moortown for a few years, so know a few of the rat runs, but the issue still remains that the airport is not linked to a motorway network. Even Southend has a dual carriageway!

[G-FORZ]

It takes just 9 mins longer (at the quietest times in Leeds) to get from Boston Spa/Wetherby to DSA (40 miles A1/M18) than LBA (20 miles A659/8). DSA by far more relaxed experience. If only they had FR, LS & MON offering the flights... but then what would LBA be without FR, LS & MON? Don't think passengers are biased LBA or DSA given the same flight options, but for time being LBA has the better offerings in terms of product and price. Neither can compete with the range of product and price offered from MAN. LBA & DSA are like the Tesco Express, small range but convienient within short distance, priced for convienience (DSA may even be the corner shop) MAN is the Tesco Extra full range, bit further to travel, but generally cheaper. Guess which one the Yorkshire (frugal) customers use most.

[Mooncrest]

Road access to Leeds Bradford has always been inadequate, more now than ever before. Yet our local MP, Greg Mulholland, doesn't want the roads touched. Instead he believes a rail link is the access panacea LBA needs. It's a nice idea but improved road access is also required. He won't be getting my vote this time.

[commit aviation]

Whether LEEDS APPROACH has a point or not is surely academic.

Both LBA & DSA are privately owned with shareholders to please. The government is not likely to get involved in airport ownership - they have bigger fish to fry. So regardless of the arguments, the status quo will continue.

[BKS Air Transport]

I said pretty much the same thing around two years ago.

It shows how much this thread goes around in circles at the behest of one poster who has a single agenda.

Please can we keep this thread for LEEDS/BRADFORD AIRPORT news?

The Former RAF Church Fenton thread is there for anyone who really wants to get into the Airport for Yorkshire thing...

[LBIA]

Flybe have just announced a new 6x weekly Leeds/Bradford to Dusseldorf service starting from October 29th 2017. Jet2 currently operate the route 6x weekly using B733 but that's due to stop in April 2018.

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/media/2578/01062017.pdf

[Seljuk22]

LS exist on this route is confirmed?

[tigertanaka]

Excellent news on the DUS route, timings are not ideal but it opens up some interesting connection possibilities, especially if there are some code shares on offer.

[LBIA]

LS exist on this route is confirmed?

Yes it looks to be confirmed now that Jet2 are dropping the LBA-DUS route on the same weekend that Flybe take over.

Jet2 originally had LBA-DUS route on sale as part of its winter 2017/18 scheduled running up until April 2018. These flights have now been removed from Jet2's booking website today so service will now finish on Friday, October 27th with Flybe starting from Sunday, October 29th.

[TimmyW]

Interested that Flybe canned the DSA-DUS route not long back - maybe they will be focusing more on LBA now?

[virginblue]

The route will be operated by a DUS-based aircraft, by the way. Flybe have recently set up shop at DUS with a German base, so I would not be surprised if more UK regional routes to non-BE bases could follow, given the fact that DUS is the German airport that serves the most UK destinations

[LBIA]

Wonder what the owners Bridgepoint Capital are up to! As it now looks like the Commercial & Aviation Development Director Tony Hallwood has followed the ex Chief Executive John Parkin out of door.

[LBIA]

Another domestic route loss, as it seems Flybe/Loganair are to axe the 2x daily Saab 340 operated, Glasgow-Leeds route next Friday August 4th 2017

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Another domestic route loss, as it seems Flybe/Loganair are to axe the 2x daily Saab 340 operated, Glasgow-Leeds route next Friday August 4th 2017

The only surprise with the reluctant axing of this route is that it hung on for so long. They have tried every pricing slide rule going to make the route sustainable. Obviously reducing ticket price makes the passenger number go up (a little) but then you're losing money [negative yield].

This marginal route [along with the many others that have bitten the bullet] perfectly sum up what the continuing and unresolvable problem is with LBA - it is in completely the wrong geographic location to tap the potential available huge Yorkshire population catchment.

The new man in charge (of LBA) stated that LBA had double the population catchment of NCL and yet for some reason it moves 1 million less passengers than NCL and that this shows there is huge potential. No he is wrong -what this shows is that there is something catastrophically wrong with EGNM! Is he saying that his predecessors at LBA were all muppets for the last 40 years!?

A well located and connected airport within Yorkshire WOULD have double the population catchment of NCL and hence 10million + passengers. LBA's less than 4 million passengers perfectly reflects that the airport is in the wrong place to make use of the potential population catchment when considering the ease and speed of getting to directly competing airports outside of Yorkshire. LBA's affected population catchment is less than Newcastle's - and that is exactly why it has less passengers. Nobody in their right mind is going to build a motorway or train station to an airport that is already full up and inefficient has a short weather affected runway that cannot realistically handle big modern jets! Many people within Leeds and West Yorkshire are not even using LBA let alone Sheffield and South Yorkshire. These people simply must be encouraged to use an airport within Yorkshire if routes like Glasgow and the many others are to be sustainable.

[Andy_S]

It's that time of the month again........

[canberra97]

Who woke up the Dormouse again.........

[pug]

Every school holiday, without fail....

[DavidShepherd]

Hi all. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have to say that Leeds Approach is absolutely spot on with his points about Leeds Bradford (although there seems to be some history here and it looks like he gets some of your backs up).

I live near Leeds, about 20 miles from the airport. I absolutely will not use it anymore. I can get to East Midlands in exactly the same driving time and Manchester in about 15 minutes more driving time.

It is in completely the wrong place to be an attractive place to fly from. It's nowhere near a motorway and the shortest route involves driving down what is little more than a farm track.

To cap off it's poor location is the cost to drop someone off and pick them up again. Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask. Nine quid the other day when I was picking my mother up and three quid when I dropped her off.

I really don't understand why more airlines don't use Doncaster. I flew from there last week, it took 30 mins to get there, all motorway and was a pleasure.

[LBIA]

Well the must be doing something right up at LBA?

Passenger numbers are currently at record highs and growing. June 2017 was +15% year on year. Thats over 1 million extra passengers than when the pick up/drop off parking fee came into effect..

LBAs accounts by the way provide evidence that customers are far from being ripped off. They make a tiny amount of profit per passenger.

[DavidShepherd]

Well the must be doing something right up at LBA?

Passenger numbers are currently at record highs and growing. June 2017 was +15% year on year. Thats over 1 million extra passengers than when the pick up/drop off parking fee came into effect..

LBAs accounts by the way provide evidence that customers are far from being ripped off. They make a tiny amount of profit per passenger.

That's fair enough, clearly there are plenty of people who don't mind crawling through Kirkstall and Horsforth to get there. Personally, I don't have the patience for it.

I'm a travel agent btw, based in WF9. Plenty of our customers use LBA, but they don't like it. Many will choose MAN or EMA over LBA because of the ease of getting there.

If a Jet2 or a Monarch were to try flying out of DSA, I could fill their aircraft all day long.

Practically every customer's first question is "Can I fly from Donny"

[canberra97]

Hi all. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have to say that Leeds Approach is absolutely spot on with his points about Leeds Bradford (although there seems to be some history here and it looks like he gets some of your backs up).

I live near Leeds, about 20 miles from the airport. I absolutely will not use it anymore. I can get to East Midlands in exactly the same driving time and Manchester in about 15 minutes more driving time.

It is in completely the wrong place to be an attractive place to fly from. It's nowhere near a motorway and the shortest route involves driving down what is little more than a farm track.

To cap off it's poor location is the cost to drop someone off and pick them up again. Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask. Nine quid the other day when I was picking my mother up and three quid when I dropped her off.

I really don't understand why more airlines don't use Doncaster. I flew from there last week, it took 30 mins to get there, all motorway and was a pleasure.

You may agree with Leedsapproach but if you look back on his numerous posts they are filled with the same content over and over again.

I realise your new to Pprune but seeing you have been a long time lurker you would most probably have read his long tedious posts with the same agenda every time so as much as you may agree for the sake of this thread please don't encourage him by openly agreeing with his comments because we won't see the end of it!

[DavidShepherd]

You may agree with Leedsapproach but if you look back on his numerous posts they are filled with the same content over and over again.

I realise your new to Pprune but seeing you have been a long time lurker you would most probably have read his long tedious posts with the same agenda every time so as much as you may agree for the sake of this thread please don't encourage him by openly agreeing with his comments because we won't see the end of it!

Yeah I had noticed the agenda, I'll try not to feed the troll :)

Most of his points are extremely valid though, sorry.

[Andy_S]

I have to say that Leeds Approach is absolutely spot on with his points about Leeds Bradford (although there seems to be some history here and it looks like he gets some of your backs up).

I think most sensible people would agree that there’s an underlying truth in what Leeds Approach says; the existing LBIA is sub-optimal in terms of location, access and space constraints, and if you could turn back the clock you’d put it somewhere else. That’s fair enough.

Here’s the problem. You can’t turn back the clock and we are where we are. But LA stubbornly refuses to accept this, and advocates developing an alternative site as a new Yorkshire airport with almost obsessive zeal while studiously avoiding any questions about where the funding for such a development will come from and how it will be commercially viable in an already crowded marketplace. And every time you think the discussion has exhausted itself, a few months later up he pops again, rehashing the same old arguments, all heavily infused with a sense of entitlement and a very obvious grievance against other airports. The first couple of times the discussion was interesting, thereafter it was moderately amusing for a while, but now it’s just becoming tiresome.

[SWBKCB]

^^^just about sums it up

[N707ZS]

Most things you can flush, but you then get the odd stubborn one that won't go away!

[G-FORZ]

I'm a travel agent btw....

If a Jet2 or a Monarch were to try flying out of DSA, I could fill their aircraft all day long.

Practically every customer's first question is "Can I fly from Donny"

LBA Vs DSA.... LBA - People can, but don't really want to Vs DSA - People want to, but can't

Airlines seem happy with the deal at LBA, they're filling the Aircraft and and the airport sees increasing year on year passenger numbers. LBA is in a good position with the incumbent carriers, better they look after them and the passengers by whatever means before the carriers realise there is better opportunity for unrestricted growth just down the road....oh but then DSA might have to take a gamble on losing TUI, Wizz and BE.
LBA will continue to be the unpopular choice airport of the region, LS, FR and MON aren't going anywhere soon.

[GdLSF]

Hi all. Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have to say that Leeds Approach is absolutely spot on with his points about Leeds Bradford (although there seems to be some history here and it looks like he gets some of your backs up).

I live near Leeds, about 20 miles from the airport. I absolutely will not use it anymore. I can get to East Midlands in exactly the same driving time and Manchester in about 15 minutes more driving time.

It is in completely the wrong place to be an attractive place to fly from. It's nowhere near a motorway and the shortest route involves driving down what is little more than a farm track.

To cap off it's poor location is the cost to drop someone off and pick them up again. Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask. Nine quid the other day when I was picking my mother up and three quid when I dropped her off.

I really don't understand why more airlines don't use Doncaster. I flew from there last week, it took 30 mins to get there, all motorway and was a pleasure.


If I am correct and you live in Pontefract, I would like to challenge the time it takes you to get to LBA/EMA/DSA.
To get to LBA, go up the A1/A659/A658, 50 mins max.
to get to EMA, A1/M18/M1/A453, 75 mins min.
To get to DSA, A1/M18/Link Road, 40 mins min. Unless the roads have suddenly been upgraded, less than half the distance on motorway, A1 Doncaster bypass to Link road.

If you don't know why airlines don't use DSA, not enough people want to fly from there.

[RAFAT]

DavidShepherd - Good points and I agree entirely with you.

[Barnstable]

To get to DSA, A1/M18/Link Road, 40 mins min. Unless the roads have suddenly been upgraded, less than half the distance on motorway, A1 Doncaster bypass to Link road.


Fast dual carriageway, I'd say 30 mins can be done if roads are clear

[G-FORZ]

Fast dual carriageway, I'd say 30 mins can be done if roads are clear

Google maps has WF9-DSA at 28 mins

Anywhere (in Yorkshire) North of a line drawn from Bridlington to Holmfith can do LBA quicker than DSA, but that also means anyone South of the same line can get to DSA quicker than LBA...by car of course.

Looking at population maps it's pretty much 50/50 Yorkshire population convenience for the two airports, and along that line (specifically Wakefield & York as higher population areas ) there's nothing more than 5-10minutes difference in journey time.

At the end of the day it's not journey time it's product availability, and LBA has more routes at greater frequency, so passenger movements will naturally go to the airport of greater choice, if not the most convenient. Those who dont see that choice in LBA or DSA will go to MAN or EMA or even BHX. LBA will still get the lions share of passengers of the two Yorkshire regional airports.

[GLAinsider]

G-JZHX has just landed in Lisbon. Diverted LS1508 LPA-STN.

[zed3]

G-FORZ... being one of those who live just above your Bridlington Holmfirth line I agree with what you say. We live in Scarborough and the A64 goes through to Leeds from there. I now avoid the Leeds ring road and go off at Tadcaster, through Boston Spa, via Harewood House and to Poole and then up to the airport. When we moved here from the Netherlands three years ago it was a 75-90 minute drive. It now takes 2 hours on a good day. We fly KLM and wouldn't dream of using MAN, the M62 is far too busy and the train which I used to use before moving is around three hours, with an hourly service and frequently crowded although this should change next year with new trains. Humberside is equidistant as is Durham Tees Valley but their fares are higher (oil/gas, etc. industry). LBA is good and could be better with improved road links, sorely needed just for the intra-Leeds traffic. The airfield IS in the wrong place for that reason and weather reasons but all in all if one accepts the difficulties, does the job... for us.

[galaxy68]

Leeds Approach... your figures regarding catchment areas regarding NCL and LBA are pure garbage. If a wonderful new airport was built to serve the West Yorkshire catchment area and located anywhere east of Leeds, it would handle far less passengers than LBA does now! Why, because the catchment area would be less than LBAs is now - as western parts, (Bradford and beyond) would fall more within the influence of Manchester. Having worked at LBA for many years, it may surprise you to know that lots of passengers actually come from Lancashire! This is probably more so now with the closure of Blackpool. Look at a map, try seeing beyond your limited Leeds view of the world - you will see that places on the north side of Manchester, are actually within easy striking distance of LBA. I appreciate time travelling is important, but within a 10 mile radius of LBA there are 1 million people. Please advise which spot, anywhere east of Leeds you will find anything like such a catchment? You cannot, because none exist.
Your comparison with NCL is typically rubbish, as their nearest competing airport, is actually LBA - nearly 100 miles away. Whereas LBA has MAN and DSA on their doorstep. Which brings me neatly on to something you always ignore and that is 1st mover advantage. Even if the present crap airport, (yes I totally agree it is crap), had a long runway, a wonderful large terminal, it would still not meet peoples expectations (like yours), as it will always live in the shadow of Manchester, which is larger, has a bigger catchment and has 1st mover advantage.
Perhaps you remember the piss take of LBA by Alan Whicker decades ago, when the runway was still short, who famously said in a very sarcastic tone, that it only has one international carrier and that's Aer Lingus. Well, some things never change.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I don't like using words like 'lots' - it's very unscientific. The reason for gaining a newly positioned airport is very much based on science.

As an example, in (2014) 4.55 million Yorkshire passengers travelled to use airports within the North West region. It has grown considerably since.

In the same year 0.125 million North Western passengers travelled to use airports within the Yorkshire region.

So more than 36x more people are travelling West than are travelling East.

Hence the airport must be placed correctly and connected efficiently [over time] to stop this happening quite so alarmingly.

It is absolutely no use having 1 million people living within 10 miles of LBA if half of them find it easier to get to a reliable Manchester. Better to find a spot that has 5.6 million people living within a 40 mile radius and 90% of them will want to use that airport.

Allan Whicker was right about LBA and that is exactly why things are changing! Patience is required though.

You are correct though about 'first mover advantage' - Yorkshire has to play catch up now.

[canberra97]

galaxy68

I advise you to go back and read through his numerous posts and those of others and your quickly notice that's it's not a good idea to fuel this one man one agenda person.

Please for the sake of humanity:-)

[LBIA]

I post a message regards Loganair dropping the LBA-GLA route and its caused this to happen again!

How many times do we have to go over this? It's beyond the joke now.....

[Harry Wayfarers]

How many times do we have to go over this? It's beyond the joke now.....

Lots ... :)

[LBIA]

Chris Sanders has today been appointed as the Aviation Development Director at LBA replacing Tony Hallwood. He follows in the foot steps of David Laws down the A1 from Newcastle whom became the airports new Chief Executive last month replacing John Parkin

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/media/2701/010917.pdf