LEEDS 5

[LEEDS APPROACH]

The consultants report is utter claptrap. They cant even get their own address right although writing Manchester is probably a sideways joke as their assessment will only favour Manchester Airport.


The Government do not want the people of Yorkshire to be able to use their own airport because if a train link is provided from, soon to be, Britain's busiest railway station outside of London- the airport will grow remarkably and then money would HAVE to be spent on the whole local 1900s local road infrastructure. They cant have that when they've spent so much on making everyone East of the pennines use Manchester airport. Here in Yorkshire we are treated as second class citizens. One of the biggest conurbations in western Europe denied proper access to its own airport.


Does the government of this country really expect the good people of Yorkshire to believe a report from consultants who cant even get their own address right on the official document?

[BKS Air Transport]

Sorry, I might be a bit picky but what is wrong with the address?

[anothertyke]

Actually on a quick scan that report could do with a proper proof read ( A64 link road to the airport when they mean A65, Poole is in Dorset etc), but I suspect the gripe from Leeds Approach is really about the comprehensive demolition by WSP of the case for a rail link to the airport which has always been an utterly hopeless basket case. If anything the surprise is that the road link stands up as well as it does ; might have a chance now.

[Andy_S]

The Government do not want the people of to be able to use their own airport because if a train link is provided from, soon to be, Britain's busiest railway station outside of London- the airport will grow remarkably and then money would HAVE to be spent on the whole local 1900s local road infrastructure. They cant have that when they've spent so much on making everyone East of the pennines use Manchester airport. Here in Yorkshire we are treated as second class citizens. One of the biggest conurbations in western Europe denied proper access to its own airport.


Does the government of this country really expect the good people of Yorkshire to believe a report from consultants who cant even get their own address right on the official document?

I can't help but be amused by the way you've co-opted the entire county of Yorkshire as being synonymous with Leeds......

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Well the consultants have now corrected their address on the official document to read Leeds instead of Manchester. My consultancy bill is in the post to them.


The only thing they've demolished is any possible reputation they've established for accuracy! It doesn't matter whether you live in Leeds, Sheffield, York or even Penzance when you see basic errors like this you lose all respect.


The report proves absolutely zero and is nothing more than guesswork. The reason why the government don't want to link LBIA to the rail network and Leeds city station (one of Britains busiest) is for the reasons I've already stated ie It would very much be the thin end of the wedge.


Someone in Middlesbrough or Hull for example jump on a train and get off at Manchester airport. They would prefer to get off at Leeds Bradford airport saving fare and time. This would be replicated from many many places in west, south and east Yorkshire and large parts of the North East. This is why there is so much leakage from our region to Manchester airport.


Lets not talk about the government trotted out phrase of 'poor value for money' because the government have not spent any money in Yorkshire for years that is why, as the report shows, only 22% of population within 10miles of LBIA can get on public transport and be there in 45minutes. Almost double the amount of population within 10miles of Manchester can get on public transport and be there in 45minutes. Leeds figures are even worse when compared to BHX and NCL. Hundreds of thousands of people live within 10 miles of LBIA- and those people are not having a fair amount of money spent on them compared to other cities.


The public transport system in West Yorkshire has been underfunded for years by the government and these figures make this astonishingly clear. No underground, no tram (denied), underfunded railway network. It's a wonder were not still on routemasters in Leeds. The whole network is grinding to a halt and so it is very much in their interest to force passengers to travel from where they have spent money ie Manchester.

[SWBKCB]

Wow! The public transport network in Leeds has been deliberately underfunded as part of a Government conspiracy to force people to use Manchester Airport - who'd have guessed?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

It's not a conspiracy. It's called saving money. Better to spend money on crossrail etc than on northern outposts.


Eventually though people have enough of being short changed. That's the point of my rant. The figures in this report (which in my opinion is complete waste of money) clearly show, beyond any doubt, that West Yorkshire has been short changed in regard to its transport infrastructure. It languishes not by a few percent but massive percentages.


A 10 year old could tell you that £billions need to be thrown at it now not a few filter bus lanes.


Funny isn't it that in this day and age where the government are pushing the public to use public transport this report is asking for a road to be built first - that's how far behind we are.


Leeds planned to be connected to HS2 and HS3 and yet you cant even get to its own airport despite a railway line running very close by.

[Andy_S]

.......and yet you cant even get to its own airport despite a railway line running very close by.

At a rather different elevation......

Do you really believe that lack of a direct rail link is all that's holding LBIA back? I would have thought that the space constraints and terrain are far more fundamental issues. As a taxpayer, I wouldn't want large sums of public money spent on a vanity exercise for a privately owned business.

[Facelookbovvered]

I admire your passion for your local airport but you have to be realistic about what is possible, LBIA is hemmed in on all sides by either property, roads or land that isn't practical to build on.

Whilst in theory a tunnel and rail link could be made into the Leeds/Harrogate rail line it just isn't a practical proposition given the costs mainly off the back of the very different elevations, there isn't space at Horsforth rail station to make any meaningful link, its in a cutting and again surrounded by housing. A link to Guiseley would pose similar problems.

LBIA maximum capacity without a full length parallel runway and given the types of aircraft using it is probably no more than 5-6m a year and given the bulk of its traffic is bucket and spades on a weeks vacation, most of whom will get a cab or self drive a train link is a non starter.

[anothertyke]

Agree with the last two posters.

I think a shuttle bus from Horsforth Stn could be worth trying at low cost.

There is room for one weak hub in the North and that is Manchester. Collectively we gain more from a strong European and long distance network out of Mcr with good ground connections than by diffusing the frequencies. At the next level down from Manchester, there are Newcastle, Liverpool and Leeds where the priorities are good connections to various hubs (AMS, LHR, DUB, CDG, DXB in one case) and a good range of holiday destinations, city as well as beach. If their regional economies grow, they will grow provided they have capacity.

There is room for growth at Leeds 80% of the hours in the year, but without investment by Bridgepoint inside the fence, we must be close to capacity in terms of based planes and peak operations in the crucial summer months.

[LBIA]

Thomson Holidays have added new route from Leeds/Bradford next summer 2015 with a weekly Tuesday departure to Crete Heraklion. Looks like the Palma flight has been retimed so the based aircraft will no longer be w-legging on a Tuesday as it has done for the past few years.

Leeds/Bradford: 06:50 > Palma: 10:30
Palma: 11:45 > Leeds/Bradford: 13:30
Leeds/Bradford: 15:00> Heraklion: 21:10
Heraklion: 22:10 > Leeds/Bradford: 00:40

[SWBKCB]

anothertyke - spot on! :ok:

[682ft AMSL]

Collectively we gain more from a strong European and long distance network out of Mcr with good ground connections than by diffusing the frequencies

That's the nub of it all really. Is it the case that the Leeds City Region is a net gainer from MAN? Or does MAN create net economic leakage of jobs and spend and make the Leeds region a less attractive place to invest compared to Manchester ?

I don't know the answer. I do know that some believe it's a one way deal - the Leeds City Region provides a very healthy feed of passengers into MAN but gets proportionality little of the benefit back in terms of jobs. Other's think differently, but in the absence of hard data it is hard to say.

[Manchester Kurt]

Local authorities and business organisations, who you would hope have a good idea, from West Yorks and other non-Manchester authorities, often call for decent connections to MAN as an important factor in improving the local economy as it opens international markets to them.


Reality is MAN is much closer to much of West Yorks than LHR is to eastern parts of Greater London.

[cumbrianboy]

I'd say there is a big difference between people from an area using an airport, eg people of Leeds using manchester, as opposed to manchester fully serving the needs of Leeds. Eg where does most of the investment go? Manchester.

So, is manchester doing everything for Leeds? No, but people of Leeds use it be because they have no choice but the city doesn't benefit as much as it could if the services where available at Leeds.

Same true in London. Which is richer and more affluent? East or west London? Yes I know Canary Wharf and the financial district is in the east, but that works because of city Airport, and in fact it's what supports city (like oil in Aberdeen) Heathrow drives economic development along the m4 corridor, again people in East London use heathrow because they have to, but the investment goes around the M4 ... Or the cities with a direct air to Heathrow to give seamless trouble free(ish) journey.

The problem is, going back to Leeds, Leeds probably can't replicate the services manchester has alone so it's a viscous circle ...

[Manchester Kurt]

That suggests its a zero sum game.


Reality is what can be good for Manc, strong airport serving many destinations, can also be good for Leeds, Sheffield, Liverpool etc.

[roverman]

West Yorkshire is set to get better rail connections to Manchester Airport once the 4th platform is in operation at the airport station and the Ordsall Curve is built.

"Direct services from Bradford, Halifax and Rochdale to Manchester Airport will be introduced. It also aims to increase the number of hourly trains between Manchester and Leeds and reduce journey times between the two cities by ten minutes".

BBC News - Northern Hub £600m rail work starts at Manchester Airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-26068933)

[eggc]

Without belittling these airports, I feel for those supporters of LBA, NCL, LPL etc as it is a mini version of MAN v LHR argument.

I think the reality is the UK can only support one hub (LHR), just as the north can only support one airport the size of, with the routes of, and the connectivity of, Manchester...frustrating for all in ways, but it's real world.

[snowman 1]

I live on south east side of leeds and it takes me 25mins to get to LBA so the train is of no great use to me,have only flown from man once in 8 years and that was because our destination was not available from leeds or Doncaster
just my own thoughts
sm1

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I am realistic about LBIA. It will never ever be a rival to Manchester airport for so many reasons as posters have described - its location within West Yorks., its height above sea level and associated weather, its runway orientation and current length and yes space is very tight etc etc. It will be a capped airport in terms of passenger throughput. What that cap will be as aviation progresses is not definite. It is a long long way from maximum passenger throughput though and the government agree with that and have backed the airport to expand, even if expansion is problematic.


Virtually the only positive of LBIA over all other airports in the North of England is its central location within the North. West Yorkshire and Leeds are at the crossroads of all the heavily urbanised cities and this is my point. If the airport can be connected properly to Leeds city railway station, which by the time of HS2 or before will be the busiest railway station in Britain (outside of London) and if the road networks can be linked to LBIA from the M62/M1 interchange area a lot better than they presently are then the airport will become much more attractive to millions of potential customers who at present don't even give the airport a second thought because of the annoyance in getting there compared to Manchester.


LBIA really is the prime example of catch 22. 'we cant build a road or rail link because you haven't got enough passengers to make it pay'. But I say you make the airport easily accessible within West Yorks. and millions of people from Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle, Doncaster, Manchester, Middlesbrough, Hull, Blackburn as well as booming West Yorkshire will have a simple almost equally short trip to get there. Obviously private owners of rival airports do not want this to happen.


The railway link from the Harrogate line would not require a tunnel just a cutting and is more than possible and that is why it has been chosen but it should be done now not in the medium to long term whatever that means.

[eggc]

Why on earth would anyone west of Oldham travel to LBA even if it was easy ?

They have MAN and LPL which offer every route Leeds can.

The only reason folk from t'other side of the hills come to MAN is usually they can't reach their destination from Leeds.

[eye2eye5]

Absolutely wrong, EGGC. You would be surprised at the number of people who travel reasonable distances to avail themselves of flights which are either cheaper or better timed. The last time I flew from Liverpool to Gran Canaria, I travelled with passengers from Barnsley and Lichfield who quite reasonably could have flown more easily from Manchester or Birmingham.

[eggc]

I'm just the opposite. I have MAN 2 miles down the road...all journeys start there for us, always have and always will. There really is no amount of saving (within reason) would see me use LBA, or LPL come to that.

I must admit though when flying into MAN I do see folk from all over...my over riding thought is "poor sods"...I'll be home by time you reach the M60...it must be horrible having a long road / rail trip after a flight...but more people must do it than I think. I'm ever so glad I live so close, despite not being able to hear the TV every 5 mins when a/c arrive !

[LEEDS APPROACH]

The point is eggc that if the playing field is made more level than it is at present (heavily in MANs favour) then LBA becomes the better placed airport [geographically]. A hub airport in West Yorks is better placed for East Yorkshire, North East and South Yorkshire passengers and yet still remains close to Liverpool and Manchester. People from Newcastle would prefer to catch a train to LBA rather than costlier and longer distance Manchester. Newcastle's catchment is considerably less than LBAs. With better internal West Yorkshire connection to the airport Leeds would do what Manchester has been helped to do for years ie pulling some passengers from all areas. Basically Leeds has a bigger 2 hour catchment than Manchester but is never considered because of the last 15 miles. Change that and you change the game. Grow the passengers and then you can grow the infrastructure of even the most difficult airports like LBA.

[eye2eye5]

And I should have added, EGGC, that my boss lives in Sale but thinks nothing of using LPL if the timings are better. Passengers have more choice these days and tend to look rather beyond the most immediate option. Perhaps you should too........

[phil5001]

I've not followed this entire thread but LBA is one of my "local" airports. Durham Tees Valley is a couple of miles down the road but has a poor destination offer. LBA is an hour or so away if you're driving, NCL much the same unless you get stuck in Metrocentre traffic on the A69 and then it can be longer. The difference is that I can get to NCL by train and Metro, I can't do that to LBA, so that's what swings the decision.

[eggc]

I would not travel an hour, or more, to save what, maybe £20, on a flight to Spain etc, which is only what is on offer from LPL and LBA.

The travel and hassle of the journeys is not worth it, for what can only be a minimal saving.

MAN (and LPL to a lesser extent) have all bases covered with Jet2, EZY and RYR, all at prices not to far off whats offered elsewhere. There really is little need, even financially, for people to travel to Leeds who would are closer to LPL and MAN.

The only leakage I can understand would be from LPL and LBA to MAN to make use of services not offered there.

I'm not arguing against the development of transport links to LBA here by the way, just saying from the west side of the pennines there are excellent transport links to airports and massive range of air services, which without doubt reduce the need for travel to Leeds.

[G-FORZ]

New road infrastructure for LBA is unlikely given the densely populated approach from the South and the distance to major arteries from the North and East. DSA will represent the best potential Yorkshire hub when FARRS is completed next year - the road was always in the bigger plan. its interesting to note that Weatherly to DSA will take only 15 mins more than current journey times Wetherby to LBA. For anywhere South of Wetherby along the A1 corridor the difference in journey time will be insignificant, this also takes in places East of the A1 such as York.

[LBIA]

I can do the A1 to LBA in 25 mins. Only traffic you might get is going up pool bank. Last flight I flew out of LBA there was a load of jordies onboard. The person sat next to me was from Sunderland and she used Leeds because Ryanair was here. Say no more.

[HOODED]

I thought that when the council's sold the airport they said they would use some of the money to improve road links to the airport. Well they've had a fair few years since then and what has been done??:=

[anothertyke]

eggc-- there is also a bit of leakage to Liverpool. Easyjet offer some destinations like Zurich, Geneva, Madrid which at some times in the past have been on more convenient schedules and/or cheaper than out of Manchester. Forty mins more on the road each way can sometimes be worth it.

The point about the WSP report where all this started is that it makes a fairly good case for the link road from the A65. It will be a controversial scheme but it could yet happen. It's the sort of scheme which Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield districts might all back.

[Mooncrest]

White Rose versus Red Rose anyone ? ;)

[LEEDS APPROACH]

In the next two weeks devolvement of Leeds city region will be announced and the road link will be backed. An LBIA parkway train station as a stopap minimum should also be backed . I hope LCR has the vision to get on with these critically needed infrastructure developments as they will pay for themselves in the near future.

[eggc]

anothertyke - yes, I do see a few travel to LPL from MAN area, hell a couple of times I have myself, but that was really before RYR and EZY became so big at MAN, although I have no doubt people still do it.

I'd fully support improved roads to LBA (not sure a do'able rail is) but what I'm saying it will have far more effect for those east of the pennines than what it would to those west and would attract few passengers from over here, but Leeds really does needs these improved connections urgently.

[Andy_S]

I can do the A1 to LBA in 25 mins. Only traffic you might get is going up pool bank. Last flight I flew out of LBA there was a load of jordies onboard. The person sat next to me was from Sunderland and she used Leeds because Ryanair was here. Say no more.

So basically, you're admitting that access to LBIA isn't a problem, and that people from outside the area are able to get to the airport without a train station........

[rpmac]

Andy S Yes you are right - people can get to the airport without a problem. I know people in Scotland who have travelled to LBA - no problem, as I have, and also met some from Durham and Teesside who prefer LBA over NCL but a train station would be a fine alternative to driving.

[Andy_S]

I'm sure it would, but "nice to have" isn't sufficient justification for the huge expense it would incur.

[Rain dog]

'Andy S Yes you are right - people can get to the airport without a problem. I know people in Scotland who have travelled to LBA - no problem, as I have, and also met some from Durham and Teesside who prefer LBA over NCL but a train station would be a fine alternative to driving.'

By road LBA is fine from the NE. On public transport it's not ideal, the train direct to MAN from Newcastle Station takes around an hour longer than it takes to get to Leeds - and you don't have to get off, and onto a crappy bus with all of your luggage for another half hour afterwards.

Perhaps the Ryanair flying-Mackem girl will put up with it to save £15, many wouldn't.

[rpmac]

Hence a Airport Parkway station on the York Harrogate Leeds line would be an advantage if a free shuttle bus ran up the airport. In time then and if successful extending the line up to the airport would be the next move. Ideally taking the line over to Guiseley then Bradford would benefit many others, not just airport users so that a Bradford to York or even Newcastle service could be provided but I agree that is unlikely and very costly.

[pug]

I see a shed load of hypocrisy from a certain poster on this thread, given the support over the development of a certain other airport which has been and continues to be funded by large sums of public money...

[Teevee]

I've flown from LBA a number of times and a new road link would definitely help ... though didn't I read somewhere where it was supposed to be an expressway for a bus link? The problem LBA has to overcome though, concerning public money, especially if it is from the Council, is that they might have made something out of the sale and made promises to put some into the airport etc. but that was before the horrendous cuts they are having to cope with. In the present political climate of cut, cut, cut trusting that what was there one year will still be there the next is unadvisable. The difference between LBA and the 'other' airport development receiving public money is that the 'other' development is not just about the airport. Without it, it might not have been obtained but it is regenerating a very large area which, by God, definitely needed it.(I used to live around there!) If LBA could make a case for the money it needs and developments it needs regenerating or supporting needy local areas and more than just the airport it might get a lot more 'public' funding.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Andy S it's not a question of 'it would be nice to have'. It is something that the West Yorkshire region and Yorkshire as a whole needs and has done for the last 30+ years. We are not talking about a monorail from Skipton to the airport and we are not talking about an airport that serves shrewsbury, wisbech or matlock. We are not even talking about building a new railway line to LBIA-we are talking about building a short extension off an existing railway line to an airport that has 3 million people on its doorstep and yet millions of them choose to go Manchester because money has not been spent on their local public transport. The figures in that report clearly show that. A short link that will connect the airport to it's city's station. A station that sits at the very centre of the North and is very well connected to all of it. A station that will soon have HS2. People in Sheffield will be able to get to Leeds in 10 minutes but it will take them 4 times as long to then get to the airport! (without the airport link) - what kind of logic is that from a government that wants to move more people on to public transport?


There is no logical reason on this planet why that railway cutting and extension should not be built immediately.

[Andy_S]

....an airport that has 3 million people on its doorstep and yet millions of them choose to go Manchester....

Your arguments are full of contradictions. You've already said that the airport is easy enough to get to and is attracting passengers from outside the area. Now you're suggesting that it's is leaking passengers to Manchester because they can't get to LBIA.....

There is no logical reason on this planet why that railway cutting and extension should not be built immediately.

That's what I love about you enthusiasts. The practicalities and costs of your wish lists never even enter your reasoning.

[Facelookbovvered]

One simple question?

How much do you think that cutting and station would cost?

Answers on a post card

a) £100'000
b) £1M
c)£10m
d)£100m
e)£200m
f)£300m
g)£500m
h)£1Bn
In considering your answer i would suggest a tunnel will cheaper than a cutting, think of all the services, sewers, energy services, overpasses, bridges, farm access roads animal overpasses, the Government estimates the new 1.8m tunnel under stonehenge will cost £1.2 bn !!!

So lets suppose LBIA could jump from 3.2m pax to 5m then over 10 years that would be 50m, so that would mean a subsidy of £10 per passenger just for the capital costs alone, thats without running it, maintaining it, or paying a cent in interest. I don't think you could build it for less than a £1Bn & i don't see LBIA getting close to 5m pax anytime soon either.

I think we all think it would be nice to have, but who pays?? add a £10 or £20 levy to every passenger that uses LBIA ? the good folk of Leeds will drive to Manchester before paying that.

[anothertyke]

I think the nearest answer is d). Obviously the UK taxpayer pays and APD will also be abolished. Can't see any problems with that.

[cumbrianboy]

Railway Finance (http://www.railway-technical.com/finance.shtml)

Interesting website. Train station at Southend cost 12.5m Us$ for a station on track already built with trains already running and access already provided.

Estimates are US$100-300million PER KILOMETER of track. To drive from Leeds City centre to the airport is 13.8KM and the landis hilly, densely populated. Plus new trains are needed, electrified to keep it in line with emissions policy, tunnelling will be required etc etc

I believe a branch line operates near the airport which is good and reduces the distance but that would need upgrading plus all the hidden costs, finance, consultants, section 106, environmental, etc and that's before you run it. Plus how often do trains run, is capacity available at Leeds and in the east coast mainline to allow extra trains to run ...?

Manchester was around 10-12 million passengers before they thought it was cost effective to build a station, Liverpool hovers around the 4/4.5m mark and that wasn't cost effect to bring a station into the airport even though the tracks are only less than a mile away.

It would be great if Leeds had a rail link but I do think it's a pipe dream

[SWBKCB]

Leeds has to major disadvantages in respect of major expansion - it is physically constrained (isn't it virtually full already overnight?) and MAN is just down the road (so it has lost first mover advantage in the markets it would want to expand into).

It will continue with organic growth in it's current markets but no amount of investment in public transport is going to turn it into an alternative hub airport for the north - that opportunity was lost when a new airport wasn't built near the A1/M1/M62.

[V_2]

I think it's a shame that things were not different, and it was RAF Church Fenton sold a long time ago, before all the investment was spent at LBIA/RAF Yeadon.

Church Fenton is located within 3 national rail lines, the A1 is very close too. Links to the whole of the east coast and north of England would be a dream compared to where LBIA is. This is before you factor in the cross runways and the much better weather Fenton would have offered. Church Fenton has just been sold, be interesting to see what happens to it, but obviously new housing would be the safest bet!

[N707ZS]

Church Fenton has a few listed parts from WWII, there are also at least two decent hangars.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Andy S. I think you are mixing what someone else has said in their post? 90% of LBIAs passenger originate from Yorkshire but the point is, as I've stated, the airport if connected up much better within West Yorks. would then be attractive to potential passengers from all over the North.

There is zero contradiction in what I am saying. The airport's 'central to North' geographic location is ideal. It's location within West Yorkshire is not ideal. Only when it is better connected to the Motorway network and to the soon to be busiest railway station in Britain outside of London, will LBIAs true potential be realised.


Facelookbovvered. With no disrespect it is quite clear that you do not really understand what is required as regards the Harrogate/Leeds line spur to the airport. Other than cutting through some farm fields heading towards a natural valley behind the airport and a bridge to support the described and backed new link road(with associated farm access) the disruption would be minimal. £1billion is ridiculously wild figure.

Whatever it costs should be divided over the last 30 years aswell as future years. The investment that that rail link would have brought to the region if built when the runway extension was completed would be immense. The business men that travel on trains over the pennines to use AF, LH, SN, SAS etc etc would not have been spent boosting the Manchester economy but would have boosted the Yorkshire economy. The families, literally millions of them every year from Yorkshire alone plus Hull Grimsby Middlesbrough all spending less to get to Leeds instead of Manchester-take that money off the cost too. All those extra train seats over the pennines that did not really need to be used if only a short spur of railway had been built.

[Facelookbovvered]

A quick look at my mapping suggests that the railway station is around 116m asl the airport around 200m so its either one hell of a cutting or a tunnel, the current tunnel towards harrogate runs less than a mile from the airport, but i think the line actually runs slightly down hill toward the Arthington viaduct, if so the drop could well be 90+m

Going back to costs, trying to break into a Victorian tunnel and excavate and area to build a points system with branch into the airport is frankly a non starter, it would be far far cheaper to put on a free shuttle bus from the Horsforth station to the airport its 5 minutes by road, but the traffic around the Old Ball is a joke

This below from the Sunday Times

THE field of contenders to build London’s super-sewer has shrunk to two after bidders pulled out of the auction for the lead role in the £4.2bn project.

Thames Water is planning a 15½-mile tunnel to take untreated waste that would otherwise flow into the river.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Facelookbovvered,
If the railway link was completely out of the question it would not have been selected by consultants for medium term investigation.


You really need a good knowledge of the immediate topography around LBIA and the arc the potential line would take from a junction between horsforth station and the bramhope tunnel up to the airport. Yes their would be an incline but not an insurmountable one. A quick look on googal will not work.

[Bushfiva]

If you're arriving and departing in your own vehicle, it's OK. If you're getting a taxi to your ultimate destination, it's pretty outstanding.


If you're picking up a rental car, it's a miserable experience especially in winter. The cars are in a cold sink car park and poorly prepped. The path to the rental car park is inadequately maintained. If you rent from a company with a rent/return on an empty tank policy, you're screwed because there appear to be no real gas stations in the neighborhood. This is all stuff that can be fixed by simply "doing things better". The offsite meet & greets are of dubious capability and flexibility. It's taken me close to a decade of rentals to find a company that actually gets it right.


Then there's simply the fog issue and number of diverts. I've flown into LBA and ended up at Manchester, Tyne Tees or East Midlands. I really want LBA to work, but it needs to deliver an outstanding experience simply to compensate for its weather issues. Once you're diverted, everything else falls apart: you get bussed back to LBA, it's the middle of the night, everything's shut down and it's not their problem.

[Andy_S]

Whatever it costs should be divided over the last 30 years aswell as future years. The investment that that rail link would have brought to the region if built when the runway extension was completed would be immense. The business men that travel on trains over the pennines to use AF, LH, SN, SAS etc etc would not have been spent boosting the Manchester economy but would have boosted the Yorkshire economy. The families, literally millions of them every year from Yorkshire alone plus Hull Grimsby Middlesbrough all spending less to get to Leeds instead of Manchester-take that money off the cost too. All those extra train seats over the pennines that did not really need to be used if only a short spur of railway had been built.

There's some absolutely extraordinary, and completely unproven assumptions here.

You assume that millions of passengers prefer to take the train to the airport rather than drive.
Even if they did, you assume that the mast majority of those would head for LBIA rather than Manchester if only there were a direct rail link.
You assume that the extra cost of travelling to Manchester Airport by train is significant enough to put travellers off doing so if there were an alternative.
You assume that lower costs to travel to LBIA would somehow contribute towards the costs of a rail link (for the life of me I can't figure that one out.....)
And you assume that building of a rail link to LBIA would create spare capacity on the Trans-Pennine Line.

I know this must hurt, but has it ever occurred to you that that having a railway station at Manchester Airport that air travellers can travel to from throughout Northern England works well. Sufficiently well, in fact, that it eliminates any need for a rail link to LBIA.

[Facelookbovvered]

The technological challenges won't stop it being built, the financial challenges will.

So back to the question, how much do you think it will cost to build and perhaps more importantly who should fund it?

How long do you think they would have to shut the tunnel for whilst this work is on ongoing? bearing in mind that the closer to the tunnel you put a cutting the deeper the cut

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Andy S I could not have won the argument any better than the way you've just won it for me. 'It works well at manchester and is not really needed at Leeds'-you don't work for MAG do you!? Better connections to LBIA will without any doubt take millions of passengers from the whole of Eastern northern England off the cross pennine road and rail network. The balance was always going to be redressed given time and it will hurt Manchester airport. The ratio of passengers will not be 6/7 to 1 in future years and in honesty it never should have been.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

The government did not want the Tour de France in Yorkshire - they wanted it in Scotland. They(consultants) said it would cost far too much and be a complete flop. Luckilly some belligerent yorkie new better. Conservative estimates say it created 4 to 5 times the amount it cost. The true worth to Yorkshire will never be known. It really is time the government stopped throwing notes into manchesters cap and put a few bob Leeds way.

[Andy_S]

...you don't work for MAG do you!?

No. In fact I have no horse in this particular race. I just try and look at things from a practical and objective perspective.

I think you missed the whole point about my remarks pertaining to Manchester Airport Station. LBIA won't get a rail link because no government is going to fund one when there's an existing rail link via Leeds to another airport in the North of England.

You suggest you "won" this particular argument. I think you lost it when you dismissed the costs and technical challenges of a rail link as an issue.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I've not dismissed the cost or complexity - I've just stated that it will more than pay for itself. You want to deny the people of one region (huge in its own right) that which another region has been given. By its very nature its unfair and voters will not put up with unfairness. We all pay taxes and those taxes should not just favour certain regions. I don't know about clarty waters but here in Yorkshire we've been poorly treated when it comes to transport infrastructure spend.

From a practical and objective perspective you will surely see that there is enough people who live east of the pennines to warrant the reasonable road and rail connection to an existing airport that has been encouraged to expand.

[LNIDA]

From the few times i have operated through Leeds it seems that the road network to the South, West, North and East is very good, but towards the airport its like an obstacle course, the only bit of dual carriage way within miles is the few 100m under the airport runway, I can't really think of another airport so badly served by the road network, yet the city transport links are excellent.

Personally my view whilst not in the least bit helpful is that its in the wrong place

[SWBKCB]

We all pay taxes and those taxes should not just favour certain regions. I don't know about clarty waters but here in Yorkshire we've been poorly treated when it comes to transport infrastructure spend.

Yes, you haven't got a motorway to Newcastle...


(and that's me taking the p*** from a North East perspective about Yorkshire moaning about transport infrastructure spend):eek:

[Ringwayman]

Out of curiosity Leeds Approach, how many passengers do you envisage using a Leeds Airport railway station? The station at MAN handles approx 4 million per year when the passenger throughput at the airport is around 21-22 million and as was mentioned earlier, only started to operate in 1993 when passengers numbers were around treble what the current Leeds numbers are.

[rpmac]

The main problem is - there are no motorways near LBA nor likely to be due to geography and urban sprawl. When the Pudsey to Dishforth/A1 motorway was cancelled many decades ago the last chance went. The link to A65 is possible, although not dual carriageway. Thus the next option is a either a rail halt on the main Harrogate -Leeds line or a possible spur up to the airport.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

When it comes to connection to local population NCL is right at the top of the list - so stop moaning!

The airport is badly served by the road network and yes the airport's intra West Yorks. position is not ideal this is exactly why the link road as an absolute bare minimum should be built- to avoid the obstacle course.

I believe MAN has had a slight dip during the last 5 or so years? Wasn't it up to 23 million around 2008? So basically ringwayman the fact that there was a choice of mode of arrival to MAN after the station was built made the airport all the more attractive to potential passengers. When booking holidays the fact that you can if you choose to use the train makes you book the flight from MAN. The same can be said about having a motorway to your front door. Man more than doubled its passenger throughput in 15 years ish. They did not all arrive by train but the government had encouraged them to somehow get to the airport. Go on 10 years and instead of more flights to Ibiza you now have flights to china. That's how having good connections helps airports and regions. Its not about how many people go through the train station its the money they spend in the shops and bars at the airport that create the jobs whose wages are then spent in Salford or stockport instead of headingley or ilkley. There is also the fact that there would be people who live near to LBIA who would use the rail link to get to Leeds quicker - I am not sure if many do that from MAN train station. It is incredibly difficult to calculate the monetary benefit of rail link to LBIA in terms of what it would do for the region in general.

[SWBKCB]

LEEDS APPROACH

When it comes to connection to local population NCL is right at the top of the list - so stop moaning!

I wasn't discussing NCL, but yes NCL has a Metro link to the city centre and the mainline station, and a dual carriage connection south (even though it is ranked as one of the most congested in the country) but going north the dual carriageway stops at Morpeth and west at Hexham. Hardly extensive. Remind me what a motorway is again? :E

So I was talking about the broader regional transport infrastructure, where Yorkshire seems, from a North East perspective, to be doing just fine - so stop moaning.

[Manchester Kurt]

Leeds Approach is very funny, but there is good news for him on the way.


As with all Metropolitan areas West Yorks is being offered more control over transport (amongst other things) and will be a key part of Transport for the North that will have a major influence over the railways in the north.

Effectively, if road improvements or a rail link to the airport are deemed to be of significant importance locally, then those locally elected representatives (including possibly a West Yorks mayor depending on what form of governance is arrived at) will have the power and cash to prioritise these items.


I doubt they will.

[682ft AMSL]

Effectively, if road improvements or a rail link to the airport are deemed to be of significant importance locally, then those locally elected representatives (including possibly a West Yorks mayor depending on what form of governance is arrived at) will have the power and cash to prioritise these items.

I doubt they will.

Not so sure personally. The Executive Board of Leeds City Council met in October to discuss the level of support they should show to LBA, the summary of which is below. The resolutions were all carried so we wait to see what that means in reality.


Summary of main issues
1. In the modern economy successful businesses and cities need a global outlook and strong international connections. The economic competitiveness of Leeds City Region will depend partly on the future sustainable growth of Leeds Bradford International Airport (LBIA). A more extensive airline route network and better surface transport access will enhance the ability of Leeds City Region and its businesses to access global markets and attract inward investment and tourism. LBIA is already a huge asset for Leeds and Leeds City Region. It is one of the UK’s fastest growing airports, supporting over 2,600 jobs and contributing £98.5m to the city region economy. However, it has the potential to contribute much more.

2. The airport is used currently by 3.3m passengers per year. The Department for Transport (DfT) has forecast that there is the potential to increase this to 7.3m by 2030 and to above 9 million passengers per year by 2050. There is potential to expand the airport’s route network to open up new international connections, supporting international trade and creating new jobs. Better transport connections are needed to grow the airport’s catchment and to enable its growth. There are opportunities to develop sustainably the area around the airport to strengthen its role as an economic hub.

3. However, this potential will not be realised without clear leadership and policies of the Council. This needs to cover topics including support for the expansion of the airport’s route network, better transport links, future land-use strategy and planning policies, and employment and skills. It will be important that future proposals for the growth of the airport are considered within the Council’s policy framework to promote sustainable development. There is also a need for the airport to engage closely with local communities and work in partnership with the Council to ensure the benefits from its growth are realised widely and potential adverse impacts of the airport’s growth are managed and mitigated.

4. It is important that Leeds City Council develops a clear and coherent policy approach to support the sustainable growth of LBIA and to maximise its positive economic role. To do this the Council needs to adopt the following main policy principles:

a. The Council will develop a coherent policy approach that supports the sustainable growth of LBIA and seeks to maximise the economic and jobs benefits for Leeds and Leeds City region;

b. The Council will support growth and expansion of the Airport’s route network to enhance the international connectivity of Leeds and Leeds City Region;

c. The Council will support the development of proposals for better surface access to LBIA to support its growth and enable it to widen its catchment, subject to robust business cases being made for transport proposals with an appropriate package of financial contributions;

d. The Council will consider the future land-use strategy surrounding the Airport in the context of existing planning policies and future growth, demand, sustainable development considerations and environmental constraints in the context of the Airport Masterplan;

e. The Council will encourage and support LBIA and businesses based there in connecting people with jobs (including through apprenticeships and skills programmes); and

f. The Council will encourage and support LBIA to engage closely with the local community and to work in a positive partnership with the Council and others

[SWBKCB]

Well, they would wouldn't they? How much money did they vote to spend? Thought not...

[Manchester Kurt]

Well, they would wouldn't they? How much money did they vote to spend? Thought not...

Exactly, the days of bidding for funding from the DfT for funding of local schemes are over, trolley bus in Leeds being the final scheme progressed in this manner.

For Leeds Approach to see his wishes met his local politicians need to prioritise these plans and direct funding towards them, so far we not seen anything to suggest these are top of the list of funding to the best of my knowledge.

[Manchester Kurt]

Very topical
News / £1.4bn programme of transport improvements announced THEBUSINESSDESK.COM (http://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshire/news/706831-1.4bn-programme-of-transport-improvements-announced.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Yorkshire_17th_Dec_2014_-_Daily_E-mail)

Seems the local elected representatives in West Yorks don't share same priorities as some on here.

[paully]

Nope, no real votes in spending a lot of money on the airport, whereas lots of little more local schemes, makes them look like they doing something..The sort of stuff they put on their re election leaflets....Its called politics which is why nothing is going to get spent on further access to the airport probably ever....simples

[kirkbymoorside]

Topical indeed as one of the projects is: "A65 to the Airport Link Road, Leeds"

List of transport schemes | Insider Media (http://www.insidermedia.com/insider/yorkshire/130156-list-transport-schemes)

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Just been reading the new updated website of LBIA.

Had a look at the vision and values section as well the 4 years late masterplan (not yet finished). Complete load of new age waffle! If I wanted visions I'd go to Lourdes. What people of the region want to know is when the the airport owners are going to actually build airport infrastructure? Actual plans and dates please for apron space, taxiways, terminal enlargement etc etc not pie in the sky claptrap.

Real plans and real dates please Bridgepoint as the weather shelter erected along the apron was not shown on the previous masterplan on your website.

No visions - real plans and real dates of construction - so that the local community is kept informed.

[paully]

Seems LBA is closed at present due to very strong winds, which it is susceptible to. KLM and Aer Lingus have cancelled flights with both departures and arrivals delayed..No mention yet of buses to manchester

[N707ZS]

Actual plans and dates please for apron space, taxiways, terminal enlargement etc etc not pie in the sky claptrap.

And where might the money be coming from to do the jobs when the airport is skint!

[BEagle]

The BBC is saying that 'thousands of passengers' were delayed by the weather at Leeds/Bradford today.

I find it astonishing.....







...that 'thousands' of people really want to travel to/from that wretched place.

[paully]

Beagle...........stop trolling :=

[Mr Mac]

Paully
I do not think Beagle was trolling. I used to fly in and out of there many times with BMI on the LHR shuttle in the 80,s, but in winter I would stay away due to the weather, like we have currently got, which then normally would end up with a trip to Teeside or Manchester. I gave up, and to be honest and would not go back either. I also had a windswept landing at Manchester today, but its not on top of a hill with a runway pointing the wrong way so no big thing !.


As for all this talk of new rail links and motorways I think somebody started celebrating too early and got carried away. There is no money or appetite for a rail or road link. The airports too small, in the wrong place, and at the wrong height, never mind the runway direction. The majority of its catchment areas population can easily reach Manchester or East Midlands, or in the North of the region Teeside or Newcastle. There is not the critical mass required. You may want an airport the size of Manchester but it is not going to happen. A better plan would be to shut it, and move it to East of Leeds where you could point the runway in the right direction and have good rail and road links but I would still doubt you would get the passenger numbers of Man.


Regards
Mr Mac

[Helen49]

IF Leeds city Council had not actively opposed the development of LBA for over ten year and IF the A1 – M1 link had been aligned along the Pudsey – Dishforth route, LBA might have been in a substantially better situation today. The Airport is now, to some extent, paying the price for those decisions.

What those decisions would not have changed is the abject location of the site [from a geographic and aviation perspective]. At 680feet amsl in these latitudes with a big dipper style runway aligned across the prevailing wind; massive earth works required for each and every construction project [particularly aircraft movement areas]; abysmal surface connections [arguably the worst of any UK airport]; limited navaids in the Rwy14 direction, it is difficult to envisage the 7 million plus passenger throughput forecast by the Dft.

The £90m cost of a rail link [talked about for some 40 years] makes the realisation of such a link improbable, particularly in the present financial circumstances. Moreover, as mentioned in an earlier post, something of the order of 10 million airport passengers are required before a rail link becomes a viable addition. Manchester had well into the teens of passengers before the rail link was planned and not only that, the rail companies have provided direct services, to and from MAN, to/from a wide range of northern locations. Such rail route development to/from LBA is difficult, although I accept not impossible, to foresee. It appears to me that a significant proportion of passengers using such a link would be required to change trains at Leeds City……..in which case it might be better to change to a train going to MAN, where a better range of air services is provided.

As West Yorkshire born and bred, it greaves me to say this but LBA is a compromise in every respect. Development only continued in the 1980s because the local politicians couldn’t find an alternative site offering the desirable qualities; the nearest location chosen was Thorne Waste; there was also speculation about the use of RAF Church Fenton as a civil airport, neither being exactly adjacent to a substantial part of the West Yorkshire populous. The advent of RAF Finningley as a civil airport, quite close to Thorne Waste, has not proved particularly popular with the West Yorkshire folks.

I suspect that it will be difficult to justify spending/investing any substantial amounts of money [public or private] on further development at LBA. This is probably the reason why LBA has always generated a considerable amount of discussion and debate but not a lot in terms of actual infrastructure development, hence its present passenger numbers after some 60 years of civil use.

Now if they had been able to extend the old Rwy10/28………………

H49

[2Planks]

Saturday 27 Dec. 158 passengers managed to get to the airport on time for an early flight. Monarch engineering had the ac prepped and ready to go. Doors closed on time, Captain tell us that only one of the 2 runway deicing machines is working this morning. Runway an hour late opening because of this. This lack of redundancy in safety critical infrastructure is concerning perhaps Bridgepoint should concentrate on getting a grip on the essentials and provide a decent service rather than worrying about expansion.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Fantastic that Bridgepoint are still advertising Copenhagen with SAS from LBA. It's lit up in bright lights on one of the new advertising hoardings. Hats off to you Bridgepoint!

[GrahamK]

Hasnt LBA been dropped by SAS?

[paully]

I think he may have been tongue in cheek...Your right the route finished on the 1st December though

[LEEDS APPROACH]

And where might the money be coming from to do the jobs when the airport is skint!

If someone took over the the West coast mainline and then said we can only run two trains a day (because they were skint, as you put it) then they would quickly be made to sell to a company who could do the job that is required.

If someone took over your local butchers and then said to their customers 'we don't have enough money to buy any meat to sell' then people would rightly describe them as not being fit for purpose.

LBA needed massive investment when it was sold. This was clearly stated at the time and everyone in the aviation industry and the Leeds city region knew it. There was absolutely no point in selling it to a company that could not inject that investment. This is why the airport is now going backwards while competing airports are surging ahead.

The people of West Yorkshire deserve so much more.

[Manchester Kurt]

And where might the money be coming from to do the jobs when the airport is skint!

If someone took over the the West coast mainline and then said we can only run two trains a day (because they were skint, as you put it) then they would quickly be made to sell to a company who could do the job that is required.

If someone took over your local butchers and then said to their customers 'we don't have enough money to buy any meat to sell' then people would rightly describe them as not being fit for purpose.

LBA needed massive investment when it was sold. This was clearly stated at the time and everyone in the aviation industry and the Leeds city region knew it. There was absolutely no point in selling it to a company that could not inject that investment. This is why the airport is now going backwards while competing airports are surging ahead.

The people of West Yorkshire deserve so much more.

Rubbish analogy, the railway is regulated and state owned.

The DfT mandate a minimum service, own the tracks and own the trains.

The WCML makes a profit.

Leeds airport was sold by the local authority to a private enterprise, a private enterprise that has shareholders that expect a return on their investment and not to be a charity interested in developing the West Yorkshire economy.

[Airbanda]

The WCML makes a profit.

Not overall it doesn't. The train operators, Virgin and London Midland at this end, are profitable. The whole edifice though stands on a massive government subsidy. If the passengers met the full cost it would fail.

Which is not to say that should be allowed to happen. London would grind to a halt pretty quickly without its workforce.

It does make comparing air and rail bananas v elephants arithmetic.

[Manchester Kurt]

Pretty sure the WCML Virgin services make a huge profit, with no need for state subsidy, yes, some services take a subsidy but Virgin WCML isn't one to the best of my knowledge.

[Airbanda]

Pretty sure the WCML Virgin services make a huge profit, with no need for state subsidy, yes, some services take a subsidy but Virgin WCML isn't one to the best of my knowledge.

It may be profitable now but it certainly wasn't always so and I doubt the 'premium' now finally being paid to govt has yet overfed the earlier subventions. And that's just revenue, before we start on the opaque structure of both track access charges and rolling stock ownership leasing.

It would take for more time than I've got now to fish out the detail from Roger Ford's copy in Modern Railways over the years. Two pieces from newsapers a t opposite ends of the political spectrum give a flavour:

No way to run a grown-up railway - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/9591329/No-way-to-run-a-grown-up-railway.html)

The truth about Richard Branson's Virgin Rail profits | Aditya Chakrabortty | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/truth-richard-branson-virgin-rail-profits)

[LBIA]

So no growth for Ryanair this year, but we may get a new route to Germany in 2016. Looks like Welcome to Yorkshire along with Bridgepoint Capital have some catching up to do regarding marketing wise. As it seem Ryanair think we are lagging behind compared to Liverpool and Manchester.
Riga is not a new route, it just going year round operation. LBA has in fact lost its routes to Milan Bergamo and Gerona this summer.


Ryanair's charm offensive leads to fast growth - and marketing advice for Yorkshire

14th January 2015

SENIOR staff from Ryanair flew into Leeds Bradford Airport yesterday as part of the airline's three-year charm offensive to reposition the brand.

The company built its reputation on low-cost flights but its chief executive Michael O'Leary revelled in the no-frills approach and became renowned for his uncompromising approach to customers.

Under pressure from shareholders and, as Europe's largest airline, with the role of upstart no longer fitting the company's image, Ryanair embarked on a serious plan to change the company without altering its low-cost approach.

"Lots of the things we have done have cost nothing," said Kenny Jacobs, Ryanair's chief marketing officer, as he talked about allowing passengers to take two bags on board and allocated seating - two of the simple, but successful, things that form part of its three-year Always Getting Better programme.

About 25m euro (£20m) has been spent, including on an overhaul of its website that has seen it reduce the transaction from 17 clicks down to just five to book a flight.

Mr Jacobs added: "The industry KPI is average cost per passenger minus fuel. Because we have had a step-up in passengers from 81m to 90m, the average cost stays flat because it's worked so well, so quickly."

That annual growth of 9m passengers - which Ryanair delights as describing as having added almost the same number of passengers as Irish rival Aer Lingus carries in total - is to be continued. Ryanair is targeting 160m passengers by 2024, which it is planning for by investing in 380 new aircraft so that it will have a fleet of 520 within a decade.

Its UK operation currently handles 32m passengers a year, which it expects to increase to 36m in the next two years.

Although there are no immediate plans for this growth to benefit Leeds Bradford Airport - yesterday just one new route was announced, to Riga, Latvia, adding to the existing 20 - it is likely that a Germany route will be available in 2016, with other additions possible as the new aircraft allow for extra routes where demand is highest.

Mr Jacobs praised the Airport, which handles about 800,000 Ryanair passengers a year, accounting for one-quarter of the Airport's total. He called on the region's tourism and inward investment agencies to constantly review and improve its marketing strategy.

"It's a very efficient airport and well run," he said. "We need more aircraft and an ongoing good deal for us to be able to take more of the capacity that we have coming on stream to work.

"The region needs the best marketing plan within Britain to get people around Europe to visit Yorkshire.

"So I would always ask that never say that the marketing plan for getting Europeans to visit Yorkshire is good enough, just constantly do what we are doing about 'always getting better'. Always work at it because the guys over in Liverpool and Manchester are working on their plan to get people to choose Liverpool or Manchester over choosing Yorkshire.

"Always work at that and tell the great story that Yorkshire has to tell."

[rpmac]

He did not say they were lagging behind but the competition over the Pennines is working hard and so Yorkshire has to do the same.

[LBIA]

Now this is a bit more interesting as you've got to start somewhere I suppose. If all goes well we might see a Boeing 787 Dreamliner in the future as Local businesses along with LBA management are to start discussions with Air India about linking Yorkshire with direct flights to India at a meeting in London this evening. So I guess they have given up trying to persuade PIA to come back and use that Boeing 777.

Business representatives to start lobbying for Air India flights to Yorkshire

INDIA'S flag carrier airline Air India will tonight hear why it should add Yorkshire to its global destinations.

Representatives from the Yorkshire Asian Business Association (YABA) and Leeds Bradford Airport are in London to present at a Microsoft-hosted event focused on collaborations with India.

The meeting, which will also hear from Cobra Beer founder and chairman Lord Bilimoria, follows on from discussions in November when the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI) met with YABA in Leeds.

Tony Hallwood, aviation development director at Leeds Bradford Airport, and YABA chairman Amarjit Singh are part of the delegation that will be lobbying to add a route that would provide a significant boost for both the airport and for international trade in the region.

Mr Singh hopes that tonight will be the start of strategic links between Yorkshire's international airport, Air India and FICCI.

He said: "We are trying to encourage and facilitate the relationship between Air India, Leeds Bradford Airport and FICCI, which represents 200,000 Indian businesses, some of which are keen to create joint ventures or work in partnership with UK businesses."

[HOODED]

Well the 787 is the right aircraft if you are going to do long haul ex LBA. Can't see it happening though, BHX has a large Indian populous LBA doesn't. Now if a Pakistani airline had 787s........:}

[crewmeal]

Church Fenton has more chance of up and running before PIA get 787's :D

[LEEDS APPROACH]

"We need more aircraft and an ongoing good deal for us to be able to take more of the capacity that we have coming on stream to work.

"The region needs the best marketing plan within Britain to get people around Europe to visit Yorkshire.

"So I would always ask that never say that the marketing plan for getting Europeans to visit Yorkshire is good enough, just constantly do what we are doing about 'always getting better'. Always work at it because the guys over in Liverpool and Manchester are working on their plan to get people to choose Liverpool or Manchester over choosing Yorkshire.

It's really quite clear what RYR are getting at as regards LBA. Sort the airport out (as much as possible) and give us a better deal. Hence the drop in routes.


The airport appears to be stagnating now under the current owners.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Rubbish analogy, the railway is regulated and state owned.

The DfT mandate a minimum service, own the tracks and own the trains.

The WCML makes a profit.

Leeds airport was sold by the local authority to a private enterprise, a private enterprise that has shareholders that expect a return on their investment and not to be a charity interested in developing the West Yorkshire economy.

You've taken the west coast rail analogy far too literally and deep. Forget the train analogy and concentrate on the butcher analogy.

You talk about DfT mandating a minimum service but so do the Yorkshire public. Shareholders may well be disappointed if they expect a return on their investment because there's been no where near the amount of investment that was declared to be spent when the airport was sold. Big money was required to be spent not just a tarting up of the historic terminal but on the whole LBA infrastructure package.

Perhaps the owners have realised that there is not much more can be done on the present Yeadon site that would get value for money? It's a serious question, not just concerning road and rail links to Yeadon but also spending on taxiways and apron space etc Why spend millions of pounds on a capped airfield just to get 2 or 3 more million passengers?

There is no logic in throwing good money after bad. Church fenton would not be a capped airfield in terms of space.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

A BA A319 and a citation spent approximately 15-20 minutes in the hold this morning. Not exactly sure why although I'll have a stab at too slippery a runway.

It's not right good is it? It will certainly not have been overlooked by BA.

When is the SAS Copenhagen advert going to be replaced? - seems a tad odd to be advertising an airline and route that operates from a competing airport. Actually potentially taking passengers away from KLM.

You know what they say though - "desperate times call for desperate measures..."

[Fairdealfrank]

"So I would always ask that never say that the marketing plan for getting Europeans to visit Yorkshire is good enough, just constantly do what we are doing about 'always getting better'. Always work at it because the guys over in Liverpool and Manchester are working on their plan to get people to choose Liverpool or Manchester over choosing Yorkshire.

Dear oh dear, we've got north vs. south over on the Ringway thread, it looks like we're restarting the war of the roses with this Lancashire vs. Yorkshire nonsense.... Time to get a grip?

[Bagso]

7A Merseyside, Mancunian, Yorkshire axis would be rather good. I don't think the poster was arguing one over the other i think they were perhaps suggesting Yorkshire needs to compete at same level.

Can I recommend the Yorkists look at the Visit Britain website !

The clue s/b in the title. It isn't ....it's 95% London.

And this is what tourists visiting the UK to include Yorkshire are being directed to !

[LEEDS APPROACH]

A BA A319 and a citation spent approximately 15-20 minutes in the hold this morning. Not exactly sure why although I'll have a stab at too slippery a runway.

It's not right good is it? It will certainly not have been overlooked by BA.

When is the SAS Copenhagen advert going to be replaced? - seems a tad odd to be advertising an airline and route that operates from a competing airport. Actually potentially taking passengers away from KLM.

You know what they say though - "desperate times call for desperate measures..."

I would like to reply to a PM I had a few days ago that was in connection with the post I made (above) regarding holding aircraft at LBA.

I am certainly not criticizing the staff of LBA who work so hard to keep things operating - in fact it is completely the opposite. They are probably the hardest working staff of any airport in Britain. The point I am trying to make is that you are having to work so hard because of the poor circumstances of the airport. Of course if you have an airport nearly 700 feet above sea level it is going to be prone to icing, snow, gales and low cloud etc and yes safety will always be number 1 priority. This is why politicians should go out of their way to ensure that airports are developed in the best locations with suitably long enough runways that point into the prevailing wind. An airport developed on flat land at Church Fenton would not be prone to Icing, crosswinds and snowed in runways anywhere near as much as LBA and hence planes would not have to hold as much or divert to other airports as much. If a passenger is held above the airport or frequently diverted to other airports he or she will be more inclined to book the next flight from an airport where this is less likely to happen. What you might see as a minor irritant could be seen by many passengers as an airport that all too frequently is not able to do its job (ie landing and departing its passengers on time). Leeds and Yorkshire needs an airport that is best placed to efficiently and effectively do its job of moving passengers on schedule. I believe an airport developed at Church Fenton would be infinitely better at doing this than the airport at Yeadon.

"Holding at LBIA Could I ask if you work at the Airport?
The team at Leeds, worked incredibly hard this morning, and safety is everyone's number 1 priority. If Aircraft are held for a while in order to ensure safety, I see this as a minor irritant.

Regards."

[Manchester Kurt]

Leeds Approach you repeatedly make comments along the lines of the people of Yorkshire demand and expect to have an airport of a standard higher than the current offerings and that the population expect the state to play a part in delivering this.


On this basis, would you imagine this to be a major political issue in the May General Election?

[HOODED]

Leeds Approach. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet re Church Fenton. Whilst I admire and agree with much of what you are saying. This simply won't happen. LBA is in the right place conurbation wise but the wrong place geographicaly. Unfortunately it has managed to serve the region well for years, and yes I know not to its full potential. We will always loose pax to MAN and yes with some money spent (parking small runway and terminal extensions better access roads etc) we could reduce this substantially. CAT3 has helped reduce the diversions. Better snow clearing and dicing kit would too. The cost of doing some of these would be high but no where near the cost of developing Church Fenton into what LBA currently is. It is also not exactly next to The massive conurbation that LBA is. DSA was the new Yorkshire airport a while ago which had the runway parking and terminal but I haven't seen The airlines switch in droves. Sorry but LBA will soldier on I'm afraid.

[LBIA]

"LEEDS APPROACH" you'll be pleased to know that the SAS Scandinavian Airline's Copenhagen advert has now been replaced.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet re Church Fenton. Whilst I admire and agree with much of what you are saying. This simply won't happen. LBA is in the right place conurbation wise but the wrong place geographicaly. Unfortunately it has managed to serve the region well for years, and yes I know not to its full potential. We will always loose pax to MAN and yes with some money spent (parking small runway and terminal extensions better access roads etc) we could reduce this substantially. CAT3 has helped reduce the diversions. Better snow clearing and dicing kit would too. The cost of doing some of these would be high but no where near the cost of developing Church Fenton into what LBA currently is. It is also not exactly next to The massive conurbation that LBA is. DSA was the new Yorkshire airport a while ago which had the runway parking and terminal but I haven't seen The airlines switch in droves. Sorry but LBA will soldier on I'm afraid.

I don't have a bee in my bonnet about CF but in time it most certainly will become the airport that properly serves West Yorkshire and indeed the whole of Yorkshire. CF is actually quicker to get to for huge areas of the W. Yorks conurbation as I've proved logically beyond any doubt on the CF thread. With an upgraded or dedicated link road from the A1 CF would be even more ideal. Obviously people in North Bradford and West Leeds would have to travel slightly further but on average people from all parts of Yorkshire and the Humber would be able to get to CF much quicker and easier. There would be substantially less leakage to Manchester from anywhere in Yorkshire including Halifax and Huddersfield because of the good motorway and existing rail link to CF.

Quite simply there is absolutely no logic or value for money in throwing yet more millions of pounds at an airport that cannot properly do the job. You wouldn't have a railway station in Leeds that cannot properly do the job so why would you have an airport? Even spending millions of pounds cannot resolve the problem of too high an airport with too short a wrong direction runway on a bumpy hill-ask any pilot on this planet if LBA has any prospects going forward and you will get the same reply. It is no coincidence that very little has been done infrastructure wise since the runway extension built over 30 years ago. Did you know only virtually half of it can be used for landing from the North? Nearly a thousand feet of lost runway due to its hilly location. If they cant land then unfortunately they cant take off. We had wide body flights 30 years ago and now we have none - progress eh! Isn't Yeadon doing well!?


LBA has not served this region well for years - I completely disagree with you. Perhaps you are just used to the level of service and like so many stoic 'take it on the chin' Yorkshire folk balk at demanding better? If you don't stand up to things you'll fall for anything. 3 million passengers a year for an airport serving a population of a small country is utterly risible. LBA with its airfield failings and inaccessibility has served another region very well over the years and that's exactly how they want it to remain. They would dread the day that CF was established as a civil airport for Yorkshire.

As I've stated many times now finningley airport is completely in the wrong place for an airport to even serve Sheffield let alone be an airport for the whole of Yorkshire. It would never be able to bring about the closure of Yeadon because it is too far away (despite its brilliant long runway and flat building land). Yorkshire must have one airport in the best central location and CF is absolutely ideal if a phased in run down of Yeadon could be agreed upon by all parties and politicians. If the opportunity is missed or denied then the region of Yorkshire and the Humber will never have an airport that can suitably and effectively do the job in my opinion.

Yes the SAS Copenhagen advert has at last been replaced by an advert for Dubai! You couldn't make it up. Where are the emirates flights to Dubai? What happened to the PIA flights to Pakistan? Proper airports handle proper aeroplanes on proper runways.

[Ringwayman]

If the airlines were THAT bothered about Yorkshire then they would be flocking their in their hordes to serve any airport in Yorkshire. AA is using 757s to MAN, UA will be doing the same to NCL. What's preventing them doing the same to LBA - it's not as if a 757 can't operate to EWR as Jet2 do it at Christmas.

You are again spending money that no-one has in (a) developing Church Fenton to be better than LBA and (b) closing LBA down. After all, you are going to compensate all interested parties at LBA, aren't you?

[LAX_LHR]

You are again spending money that no-one has in (a) developing Church Fenton to be better than LBA and (b) closing LBA down. After all, you are going to compensate all interested parties at LBA, aren't you?


Don't forget, as Leeds Approach said in the CF thread, he is not interested in economics.


He just wants the big shiny airport parachuted in with no care for cost, and all of those airlines to flock in with complete disregard for any yield and load potential.


In other words, LA wants Changi in Yorkshire.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

If the airlines were THAT bothered about Yorkshire then they would be flocking their in their hordes to serve any airport in Yorkshire. AA is using 757s to MAN, UA will be doing the same to NCL. What's preventing them doing the same to LBA - it's not as if a 757 can't operate to EWR as Jet2 do it at Christmas.

You are again spending money that no-one has in (a) developing Church Fenton to be better than LBA and (b) closing LBA down. After all, you are going to compensate all interested parties at LBA, aren't you?

No because as I've clearly stated many passengers will not use LBA because it is easier to jump onto the motorway or train and go to MAN and airlines know that. A potential Yorkshire airport has to be in the IDEAL location and Yeadon never will be. Airlines will not risk going into LBA on a scheduled flight because of the diversion probability. Jet2 Newark flights have indeed diverted to Manchester. So you've perfectly proved my point. You are a fan of MAN and so it's in your interest for Yeadon to continue.

[HOODED]

Leeds Approach. I am well aware that landing from the North you loose SOME runway as I did my PPL at LBA. Half is somewhat of an exaggeration though. The runway is 7380 feet extended from 5400 ft many years ago. I seem to remember it was extended at the Northern end and the new 2000ft bit has the displayed threshold on it....Half really!! LBA on 14 has less than 2000ft unusable of the 7380ft. Also 747s have landed that way, tight but doable. Are you aware that modern wide body aircraft like the 787 and A350 are much less reliant on huge long runways? Are you also aware that departing off 14 where length is more important you have a take off distance of over 10000ft due to no obstacles. Guess we will just have to beg to differ. Have a look at Luton....on a hill, short runway, not much space but hey they're still going. I look forward to landing at Yorkshire Tadcaster Airport after LBA has closed. I can then drive home to North Leeds in just short of the time it would have taken to have Landed at DSA or MAN.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Don't forget, as Leeds Approach said in the CF thread, he is not interested in economics.


He just wants the big shiny airport parachuted in with no care for cost, and all of those airlines to flock in with complete disregard for any yield and load potential.


In other words, LA wants Changi in Yorkshire.

Let me try to explain slowly to you LAX. The economics are utterly critical to any airport but try to understand I am looking at this from a purely aviation point of view. Centre of catchment, ease of travelling from catchment, ability of airport to do the job efficiently. I've crunched the figures. IF and it's a big IF LBA was to close and CF was to be developed - Yorkshire passengers would use CF airport as it would easily be the most convenient and easy airport to get to from all areas of Yorkshire and the Humber. Yes base fares from MAN would be cheaper certainly to begin with but this would be countered by the ease and cost of getting to CF and the much greater reliability of CF doing the job of landing and departing passengers on time (compared to Yeadon).

The yield would be greater than is present at Yeadon because the airport at CF would be more attractive to a bigger population and CF would be the airport of choice for more people. If you cannot accept that then we'll just have to disagree. Why do you think the yield demand would be less than at Yeadon? People from Hull and Sheffield go to MAN and EMA at present over Yeadon but if an airport at CF was developed this would in time become their airport of choice due to the ease of getting there and its reliability as airport. People from Leeds and Bradford would also use CF. People from the North East who stay on the train to MAN would be able to get off over an hour earlier at CF. The REALITY catchment of CF would be greater because of the better airfield circumstances.

It's not a vanity project of big new shiny airfield it basic economics proven beyond any doubt. The only thing that will stop it is politics and more aptly politicians.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach. I am well aware that landing from the North you loose SOME runway as I did my PPL at LBA. Half is somewhat of an exaggeration though. The runway is 7380 feet extended from 5400 ft many years ago. I seem to remember it was extended at the Northern end and the new 2000ft bit has the displayed threshold on it....Half really!! LBA on 14 has less than 2000ft unusable of the 7380ft. Also 747s have landed that way, tight but doable. Are you aware that modern wide body aircraft like the 787 and A350 are much less reliant on huge long runways? Are you also aware that departing off 14 where length is more important you have a take off distance of over 10000ft due to no obstacles. Guess we will just have to beg to differ. Have a look at Luton....on a hill, short runway, not much space but hey they're still going. I look forward to landing at Yorkshire Tadcaster Airport after LBA has closed. I can then drive home to North Leeds in just short of the time it would have taken to have Landed at DSA or MAN.

You need to check your runway available distances mate and then you will understand exactly where I am coming from. The actual runway length has little to do with anything. TORA / LDA .The problem is airlines look at worst case scenarios before deciding to operate certain routes and aircraft. (PIA). It's not the good days it's the bad days! If you cannot land every time - then you cant land! If you haven't landed then you sure as hell cant take off again - that is Yeadon in a nutshell.

[LAX_LHR]

Leeds Approach,


You are looking at this project far too simplistically. Population does not automatically mean people will use it.


Just look at BHX, huge city on its doorstep, huge industry areas, easily accessible to millions more yet handles just shy of 10million per year, with outlying areas using LHR/MAN/EMA/LTN/STN and BRS. That's a fraction of its potential thanks to the other airports.


So explain to me why CF would be so vastly different? Like I say, you have a far too simplistic 'Yorkshire pride' view on this, and you seem to be answering rather defensively against any critics, which quite frankly puts many off and I'm wondering why Ive even bothered t be frank.

[HOODED]

Leeds Approach. I know the declared distances and just gave you some. No one is saying it's ideal but modern ac performance is loads better. 5900ft is not half of 7380ft whether like it or not. Luton is shorter than Leeds and manages nicely thank you. You are still dreaming, CF would work if Millions were spent and LBA was forced to close. LBA is owned and operated by Bridgepoint. Who will compensate them and stump up the millions needed to develop another airfield in these days of austerity?? Face facts airports are closing not opening these days.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach,


You are looking at this project far too simplistically. Population does not automatically mean people will use it.


Just look at BHX, huge city on its doorstep, huge industry areas, easily accessible to millions more yet handles just shy of 10million per year, with outlying areas using LHR/MAN/EMA/LTN/STN and BRS. That's a fraction of its potential thanks to the other airports.


So explain to me why CF would be so vastly different? Like I say, you have a far too simplistic 'Yorkshire pride' view on this, and you seem to be answering rather defensively against any critics, which quite frankly puts many off and I'm wondering why Ive even bothered t be frank.

Of course I have oversimplified because the basic principles are set in stone. Big population, reliable 'fit for purpose' airport, easily accessible.

Population of the West midlands 5.3 million BHX 10 million passengers.
Population of Yorks and the Humber 5.3 million LBA 3.2 million passengers

This has very little to do with Yorkshire pride. I don't mind critics at all but how can anyone argue with these figures? How can anyone dispute the airfield characteristics of Yeadon airport?

We have the perfect double whamy in Yorkshire- wrong location for accessibility of an airport and poor airfield characteristics. Sort those two factors out and then you will see.

[gilesdavies]

Shut LBA and move everything to DSA, problem solved...

Then rename it to Robin Hood Doncaster Sheffield Leeds Yorkshire Airport!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach. I know the declared distances and just gave you some. No one is saying it's ideal but modern ac performance is loads better. 5900ft is not half of 7380ft whether like it or not. Luton is shorter than Leeds and manages nicely thank you. You are still dreaming, CF would work if Millions were spent and LBA was forced to close. LBA is owned and operated by Bridgepoint. Who will compensate them and stump up the millions needed to develop another airfield in these days of austerity?? Face facts airports are closing not opening these days.

What is Luton's LDA then (both runways)? Runway into prevailing wind. What is the LBA LDA (both runways)? 90 degrees to prevailing wind.

Some of the figures you gave before were nonsense. If you read my post again I stated that nearly half the 2000 ft extension cannot be used to land from the North. Check runway displacements.

Modern aircraft are much better of course but the airlines will not risk LBA because the accessibility/location of the airport is poor and a sizeable proportion of passengers find easier to go to MAN where tickets prices are lower because of the reliability/efficiency of MAN airfield.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach. I know the declared distances and just gave you some. No one is saying it's ideal but modern ac performance is loads better. 5900ft is not half of 7380ft whether like it or not. Luton is shorter than Leeds and manages nicely thank you. You are still dreaming, CF would work if Millions were spent and LBA was forced to close. LBA is owned and operated by Bridgepoint. Who will compensate them and stump up the millions needed to develop another airfield in these days of austerity?? Face facts airports are closing not opening these days.

You make a very good point about compensation. Certainly there would be property owners that would require to be compensated. From my point of view the benefits to Yorkshire economically and culturally for many years to come would by far out weigh any compensation figures. How many millions of pounds have been spent or plan to be spent on an airport that is millions of passengers behind where it should be? How many billions of pounds would have been kept in Yorkshire if CF had been developed earlier?

[HOODED]

Leeds Approach. Apologies I have just re read your post. What you state is true. Luton does indeed have slightly better LDAs as they have not been forced by the CAA to displace thresholds as part of the approval of a runway extension. Remember when 33 had the threshold on the end? With a soft RESA built the threshold on 32 could go back to its original position but 14 is stuck where it is. As you clearly know it's not landing but take off that requires the length, that's when you are heaviest. Engine out after take off is a potential problem on 32 if you are heavy. LBA is a compromise. Crosswinds become a problem when the wind is high. How many times a year is this? It happens at other airports too even when the have prevailing wind direction runways. FYI BHX is also a NW/SE runway. LBA has problems yes but it does ok and should do better. Road/Rail access improvements were promised when the Airport was sold but that money was never spent where it should have been. Leeds is now a major financial city and deserves an Airport to match. Sadly it won't get one. Live with it.

[Andy_S]

I don't mind critics at all but how can anyone argue with these figures? How can anyone dispute the airfield characteristics of Yeadon airport?

We can argue with them because you treat the figures far too simplistically. In your mind population = big airport therefore case proven, and everything else - the the money, the economics, the competitive environment is dismissed as insignificant, a minor detail that can be overcome with a bit of "political will".

Very few, I think, would dispute the non-ideal location of Yeadon. What most of us appreciate, though, is that it despite it's shortcomings it works sufficiently well that the barriers to entry for Church Fenton are enormous.

[anothertyke]

The figures need to be looked at carefully and interpreted. Just a few points.

The 2011 Census had the population of W Midlands Planning Region at 5.6 million not 5.3m.

Birmingham is also the most attractive airport for a chunk of surrounding territory outside WM such as mid-Wales, N Oxfordshire. By contrast even CF would not be clearly the best located airport for Sheffield,certainly not the affluent parts of Sheffield.

Looking at Bristol and E Mids as the best comparators to Leeds and looking at the CAA stats, I reckon an all singing all dancing relatively unconstrained airport would be doing a couple of million pppa more than Yeadon. Given that would never be a purely commercial proposition, how much public money is it worth spending to achieve that? A fraction of what it would cost IMHO.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

We can argue with them because you treat the figures far too simplistically. In your mind population = big airport therefore case proven, and everything else - the the money, the economics, the competitive environment is dismissed as insignificant, a minor detail that can be overcome with a bit of "political will".

Very few, I think, would dispute the non-ideal location of Yeadon. What most of us appreciate, though, is that it despite it's shortcomings it works sufficiently well that the barriers to entry for Church Fenton are enormous.

Oh my friend from clarty waters! Population does = big airport. Name anywhere in the world where that very basic principle doesn't follow. Of course you can have big airports where the population is not that big with hub airports but generally wherever there is a lot of people they need to be moved.

What sometimes skews this is political weighted decision/mistake making. I think only someone with an interest in MAN would say that LBA works sufficiently. It simply does not. The economics of CF do stack up-as we move forward in time it would be the most efficient airport in Yorkshire, it would be the most easily accessible airport to all of Yorkshire, it would keep passengers and money in the Yorkshire region. That is real issue here - the effect it would have on another region's airport where millions of Yorkshire people at present are being forced to travel to.

The barriers to developing Church Fenton are huge but logically and economically as we go forward it would be the right thing to do, not for MAN airport but for the whole Yorkshire region. The evidence is utterly overwhelming and anyone who cannot see it I think has a vested interest elsewhere.

[LAX_LHR]

The evidence is utterly overwhelming and anyone who cannot see it I think has a vested interest elsewhere


Leeds Approach,


You're not getting it are you?


You keep saying 'the evidence is overwhelming', which, you claim includes logically and economically.


Please can you point me to this 'overwhelming economic evidence' that you so lovingly elude to, as so far, you keep spouting 'population, population, population'.


How much will it cost to develop CF? How much will it cost to compensate bridgepoint? How much to develop the transport links? What is the propensity to fly level in the 1 hour catchment? What is the yield potential of flights? How much are you going to charge airlines to re-coup the construction and compensation costs? How do you expect airlines to match the 'lower bulk prices' of MAN with the fees?


These are just some of the many, many questions that you need to answer before anyone remotely takes you seriously, yet, you seem to be avoiding the question with 'but, but, but, the population, please will SOMEONE THINK OF THE POPULATION'.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

The figures need to be looked at carefully and interpreted. Just a few points.

The 2011 Census had the population of W Midlands Planning Region at 5.6 million not 5.3m.

Birmingham is also the most attractive airport for a chunk of surrounding territory outside WM such as mid-Wales, N Oxfordshire. By contrast even CF would not be clearly the best located airport for Sheffield,certainly not the affluent parts of Sheffield.

Looking at Bristol and E Mids as the best comparators to Leeds and looking at the CAA stats, I reckon an all singing all dancing relatively unconstrained airport would be doing a couple of million pppa more than Yeadon. Given that would never be a purely commercial proposition, how much public money is it worth spending to achieve that? A fraction of what it would cost IMHO.

If the airport at CF had been developed when the runway extension at LBA was constructed (combined with the run down of LBA at that time) CF would be doing between 7 and 8 million passengers now (conservative estimate). The point is though go forward 50 years with CF against 50 years with LBA and the loss to Yorkshire without CF would be staggering (but great for MAN).

Politicians will keep an underperforming unsuitable airport bobbling along for as long as they can.

[anothertyke]

I don't disagree but as numerous others have said, we are where we are. By the way I for one have no vested interest.

[rpmac]

I personally am getting fed up with this thread about the so-called merits of an airport at Church Fenton which is never going to happen and is not needed anyway.
Can we get back to real news stories or even rumours if somewhat credible about the airport that does serve Yorkshire.

[HOODED]

I also have no vested interest in MAN and I hate the leakage of Yorkshire fliers to MAN. I just look at the situation realistically. I'd love someone with very deep pockets to come in and buy CF from its current owner who wants it as a GA site. Develop it, extend the runways, build a terminal and associated roads, put in taxiway capable of taking the big stuff, upgrade the lighting, put in ILS (Cat 3 please on at least 1 runway due Vale of York Fog.....yes I used to work at CF, Linton and Leeming oh and Finningley too). Then buy out Bridgepoint. Great all sorted. Now where are we going to find someone with all that money to spend for little return? How do you make a million in aviation?....Start with 2 million!

[roverman]

Big population=big airport. Yes, but the airport isn't necessarily right next to the big population. For example Rotterdam/Den Haag/Utrecht in the Netherlands - a sizeable population and much industry. Rotterdam has a small airport for local needs, the main airport being Amsterdam Schipol.
This works fine with fast road and rail connections.

Leeds/Bradford/West Yorks has a local airport with better services than Rotterdam. The main airport is Manchester which has good and improving road and rail links. No need spending more money at Church Fenton to provide something which is already available. Can you honestly expect CF to have anything like the range of flights MAN has. Ever?

[Andy_S]

Population does = big airport. Name anywhere in the world where that very basic principle doesn't follow.

To use your own words, it's a very basic principle. That's how you're using it - as a very basic principle. I don't deny the basic principle but my point was that there are a multitude of other factors that need to be taken into consideration. That's why I say you're being too simplistic.

I think only someone with an interest in MAN would say that LBA works sufficiently. It simply does not.

The operative word here is "sufficiently". No one denies LBA's limitations, but despite it's constraints it is a thriving regional airport. It works "sufficiently" well that there is very little enthusiasm in investing a lot of time and money in closing the place down and setting up shop somewhere else.

I am not remotely interested in MAN btw. I've actually gone on record on PPRuNe as being opposed to MAG's takeover of STN. But that's another story.

[GdLSF]

Can we forget about Church Fenton, please. There are far too many Yorkshire folk using MAN as it is. If Church Fenton is to be "Yorkshire's" airport, there will be another million.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach,


You're not getting it are you?


You keep saying 'the evidence is overwhelming', which, you claim includes logically and economically.


Please can you point me to this 'overwhelming economic evidence' that you so lovingly elude to, as so far, you keep spouting 'population, population, population'.


How much will it cost to develop CF? How much will it cost to compensate bridgepoint? How much to develop the transport links? What is the propensity to fly level in the 1 hour catchment? What is the yield potential of flights? How much are you going to charge airlines to re-coup the construction and compensation costs? How do you expect airlines to match the 'lower bulk prices' of MAN with the fees?


These are just some of the many, many questions that you need to answer before anyone remotely takes you seriously, yet, you seem to be avoiding the question with 'but, but, but, the population, please will SOMEONE THINK OF THE POPULATION'.

I think it's you that doesn't get it. Your only legitimate argument is the cost of it. It would be at the centre of the whole of Yorkshire and IF LBA was to be politically withdrawn it would be the airport of choice for virtually all of the Yorkshire population. It would be easier to get to from all points of the compass. The stats show that outside of Leeds city region virtually nobody uses LBA- in that regard it is similar to NCL - It cannot pull passengers from other regions (only certain routes can be done because the catchment is very finite). If an airport was established at Church Fenton it would not only be the airport of choice for the whole of Yorkshire but it would also pull passengers from heavily populated neighbouring regions from all directions (exactly what MAN does). LBA will never be able to do this because of its inaccessible location. Even if it had a motorway and rail link to it - in aviation terms it is probably the worst civil airport in Britain. Ask a pilot.

You talk about compensating the owners of LBA but who compensated EMA when finningley was developed? - Nobody. If you put a better product in a better place market forces will ensure that it is a success. It is quicker to get to tadcaster from Sheffield, Middlesbrough, hull, Doncaster, Huddersfield, wakefield, Barnsley, York, Southern and Eastern Leeds, The entire county of North Yorkshire, the entire county of South Yorkshire, the entire county of East Yorkshire, Southern Bradford, Kirklees etc than it is to get to LBA. This can be proven very easily on a pc. CF is also on 2 of the countries most major railway lines and is planned to be on HS2. Which railway line is LBA on?

The propensity to fly is irrelevant as they will be the same people who are flying from LBA plus millions more. The yield will be higher because the demand will be higher. Airlines will not have to factor in frequent diversion costs into their ticket prices and as finningley has shown despite being a brand new airport it still offers knock down deals for airlines to base. The difference is CF would pull from all of Yorkshire and not just Doncaster and Rotherham. The evidence is there- you just have to have a knowledge of demographics, catchment areas, motorway and rail routes. Accessibility is key as the RYR bigwig said last week. It is true.

You talk about who will pay for CF but what about the 40+ years that Yorkshire has lost millions of pounds each year because of LBA's real and perceived inaccessibility? People outside of Leeds and Bradford are just not interested in the slog to get there and a poxy mile long link road will change very little. This will continue for another 50 years. Billions of pounds helping to prop up a neighbouring regions economy. I am afraid my friend it is you that just cannot see that LBA is not serving the Yorkshire population properly or perhaps you can?

[LAX_LHR]

Leeds Approach,


There you go again waffling about population, avoiding pretty much every question I asked.


For the record, your argument about compensation for EMA is null and void, EMA wasn't closed for the benefit of Finningly, which is what you want to happen in the LBA/CF debate.


The fact that you still waffle on about 'population, population, population' means that the chance to take you seriously has long diminished.


Good day with your cloud cuckoo 'dont worry about cost' scenario, the chance of LB being closed to develop CF is like the chance of anyone taking you seriously.....none existant.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

To use your own words, it's a very basic principle. That's how you're using it - as a very basic principle. I don't deny the basic principle but my point was that there are a multitude of other factors that need to be taken into consideration. That's why I say you're being too simplistic.



The operative word here is "sufficiently". No one denies LBA's limitations, but despite it's constraints it is a thriving regional airport. It works "sufficiently" well that there is very little enthusiasm in investing a lot of time and money in closing the place down and setting up shop somewhere else.

I am not remotely interested in MAN btw. I've actually gone on record on PPRuNe as being opposed to MAG's takeover of STN. But that's another story.

It is not thriving - it is underperforming massively because it is in the wrong position to serve the WHOLE of Yorkshire and neighbouring regions. It is using up the Leeds city region population but outside of that region passengers are choosing more accessible airports (not with a short runway on a hill). The east of the pennines has a population greater than Scotland and therefore there is no reason (other than propping up MAN) why Yorkshire should not have (and can profitably support) an airport of its own that can be easily reached and can properly do the job in aviation terms. MAN would obviously be the main airport for the North but Yorkshire would have a smaller version. NW politicians would fight tooth and nail to stop this happening.

[Homo Simpson]

Leeds Approach

Whilst I can admire someone's enthusiasm for aviation there has to come a point at which that enthusiasm needs a dose of reality.
You clearly know nothing about airlines or airports as your posts show, to me and many others it seems. Your continued belief that Yorkshire deserves a "proper" airport is spotter fantasyland not the real world.
I agree that LBA is not ideal but it does seve a purpose. Nobody is going to spend millions on CF hoping it will bring in the airlines and passengers.
You mention nobody compensating EMA. Why would they??
However you are suggesting that CF is developed but that would mean closing LBA so you would absolutely need the current owners onside. There is no way you could get the funding and commitments for CF if LBA is still going to be operational.
LBA can grow but there is only one major airport for the North and that is clearly shown by the airlines and routes from it. People will always have to go to a bigger airport to get the range of services it can offer. It doesn't mean Yorkshire
shouldn't have more offerings from LBA but "crunching" some numbers as you say you have done is not going to change anything.
SAS lasted how long? I doubt it was because of the location of LBA. More to do with passengers not using it. Flights to Pakistan have been and gone. Why? Because it's better to consolidate at one big airport for long haul in most cases. That's just a couple of examples but it shows that just lobbing money at CF, economics doesn't really matter that much to you, won't work.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach

Whilst I can admire someone's enthusiasm for aviation there has to come a point at which that enthusiasm needs a dose of reality.
You clearly know nothing about airlines or airports as your posts show, to me and many others it seems. Your continued belief that Yorkshire deserves a "proper" airport is spotter fantasyland not the real world.
I agree that LBA is not ideal but it does seve a purpose. Nobody is going to spend millions on CF hoping it will bring in the airlines and passengers.
You mention nobody compensating EMA. Why would they??
However you are suggesting that CF is developed but that would mean closing LBA so you would absolutely need the current owners onside. There is no way you could get the funding and commitments for CF if LBA is still going to be operational.
LBA can grow but there is only one major airport for the North and that is clearly shown by the airlines and routes from it. People will always have to go to a bigger airport to get the range of services it can offer. It doesn't mean Yorkshire
shouldn't have more offerings from LBA but "crunching" some numbers as you say you have done is not going to change anything.
SAS lasted how long? I doubt it was because of the location of LBA. More to do with passengers not using it. Flights to Pakistan have been and gone. Why? Because it's better to consolidate at one big airport for long haul in most cases. That's just a couple of examples but it shows that just lobbing money at CF, economics doesn't really matter that much to you, won't work.

You were from Manchester but now you're in a bar! PIA were all set to fly 777s in- the margins of a short runway are too tight. The diversion record makes it a non starter. Hence no service. LBA wanted it.

SAS twice a week not very useful. People from Yorks staying on the motorway / train to MAN's many flights. Inaccessibility. Only Leeds city to feed the service. You doubt it is the location-but it is extremely important to potential passengers.

MAN will have its longhaul but there will be a fairer split of services. I don't think MAN and its fans in a bar would want a fairer split!

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Big population=big airport. Yes, but the airport isn't necessarily right next to the big population. For example Rotterdam/Den Haag/Utrecht in the Netherlands - a sizeable population and much industry. Rotterdam has a small airport for local needs, the main airport being Amsterdam Schipol.
This works fine with fast road and rail connections.

Leeds/Bradford/West Yorks has a local airport with better services than Rotterdam. The main airport is Manchester which has good and improving road and rail links. No need spending more money at Church Fenton to provide something which is already available. Can you honestly expect CF to have anything like the range of flights MAN has. Ever?

Rotterdam, the hague, Utrecht much closer to AMS and catchment is into the sea. Leeds is at crossroads of the urban north of England. Rotterdam population 600 thousand I think. Yorkshire is 5.3 million. Not even comparable. Hull cr has population of 600 thousand - its a little bit further away from MAN than Rotterdam is from AMS.

Church Fenton (Yorkshire International) would not have the range of flights of MAN but the ratio would not be 6 or 7 to 1 as it is at present. "No need creating a profitable airport at Church Fenton for 5.3 million when we can just keep paying and struggling across the busy and snowy M62-eh"

[Ringwayman]

People outside of Leeds and Bradford are just not interested in the slog to get there and a poxy mile long link road will change very little.

Unscientific analysis using google maps and going by road to Church Fenton and LBA with MAN thrown in

Sheffield: to Church Fenton: 1h 2m. to LBA 1h 12m. to MAN 1h 15m
York: to Church Fenton 30m. to LBA 50m. to MAN 1h 31m
Scarborough: to Church Fenton 1h 18m to LBA 1h 41m. to MAN 2h 20m
Scunthorpe: to Church Fenton 59m. to LBA 1h 15m. to MAN 1h 49m
Doncaster: to Church Fenton 43m. to LBA 1h 4m. to MAN 1h 27m
Hull: to Church Fenton 1h 4m. to LBA 1h 25m. to MAN 1h 54m
Barnsley: to Church Fenton 51m. to LBA 54m. to MAN 1h 6m

Some "slog" when we're talking ease of access to Church Fenton instead of LBA are seeing journey times saved venture from under 5 minutes to 23 minutes.

Looking at the Google Map image, I wouldn't exactly say it's going be easy to expand the runways (remember, you want a "proper" airport - whatever that means - in place of LBA so a minimum longer runways to have "proper" planes to "proper" destinations).

Then this assumption that 4 million more passengers will magically appear out of thin air because there's a "proper" Yorkshire airport. Can we have a list of these airlines and destinations that would spring up? MAN has single daily services to a handful of US destinations and MAN is serving the whole North of England. Airlines aren't going to cannibalise what may be a borderline route by adding a similar service over the Pennines so they can "enjoy" 2 loss making routes for a while before either waving bye-bye to the North of England in it's entirely or retrenching to back to MAN.

[paully]

In the absence of any real news about LBA and its operations, it might be pertinent to point out that the Mods patience is not infinite...The same rants and essays became evident on another thread and it was closed down..I suggest some thought might be given in that direction folks....

[LEEDS APPROACH]

In the absence of any real news about LBA and its operations, it might be pertinent to point out that the Mods patience is not infinite...The same rants and essays became evident on another thread and it was closed down..I suggest some thought might be given in that direction folks....

There isn't any news that's the point. The Mods will make their own minds up when to pull a thread. No thread has been pulled. If you think it's a ridiculous thread and pie in the sky then don't comment.

The issue is serious. Edinburgh and Glasgow have international airports and yet a region in England with more people than both cities combined does not even have a service to Brussels. The current service to CDG is worse than air UK's service 35 years ago and yet we are meant to just accept it.

[Ringwayman]

If there's no service to Brussels and limited to Paris, you need to work out that this is a direct correlation to demand. Not rocket science and not some mad conspiracy to keep the MAN routes going at all cost, Shaving minutes of a passenger's travel time is not going to influence where a passenger flies from.

[paully]

Approach.....you are certainly right..This is a pie in the sky bit of nonsense..and I am perfectly free to comment, within the rules, as I have done and reserve the right to do so again. You have made your point,as you are entitled to do, but to make it ad nauseum does your cause no good.....Softly softly catchee monkey :rolleyes:

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Unscientific analysis using google maps and going by road to Church Fenton and LBA with MAN thrown in

Sheffield: to Church Fenton: 1h 2m. to LBA 1h 12m. to MAN 1h 15m
York: to Church Fenton 30m. to LBA 50m. to MAN 1h 31m
Scarborough: to Church Fenton 1h 18m to LBA 1h 41m. to MAN 2h 20m
Scunthorpe: to Church Fenton 59m. to LBA 1h 15m. to MAN 1h 49m
Doncaster: to Church Fenton 43m. to LBA 1h 4m. to MAN 1h 27m
Hull: to Church Fenton 1h 4m. to LBA 1h 25m. to MAN 1h 54m
Barnsley: to Church Fenton 51m. to LBA 54m. to MAN 1h 6m

Some "slog" when we're talking ease of access to Church Fenton instead of LBA are seeing journey times saved venture from under 5 minutes to 23 minutes.

Looking at the Google Map image, I wouldn't exactly say it's going be easy to expand the runways (remember, you want a "proper" airport - whatever that means - in place of LBA so a minimum longer runways to have "proper" planes to "proper" destinations).

Then this assumption that 4 million more passengers will magically appear out of thin air because there's a "proper" Yorkshire airport. Can we have a list of these airlines and destinations that would spring up? MAN has single daily services to a handful of US destinations and MAN is serving the whole North of England. Airlines aren't going to cannibalise what may be a borderline route by adding a similar service over the Pennines so they can "enjoy" 2 loss making routes for a while before either waving bye-bye to the North of England in it's entirely or retrenching to back to MAN.

Providing a link road over very flat land, sparsely populated, to Church Fenton (a la finningley)would reduce those figures markedly. It is not just the time of journey it is the ease of journey. It can take nearly an hour from motorway to LBA during certain times of the day. Initially there would only be a runway extension on the northerly runway upto around 7800 - 8000ft. This would be a considerably longer usable runway than LBA due to shorter runway displacement. LBA is right on limits but CF would allow DXB and florida. Instead of SN A319 at MAN it would be Dash8 at CF and RJ100 at MAN. A fairer ratio that more accurately reflects the two conurbations.

The regional airport of MAN has benefitted due to LBA being partially developed in the wrong place. Don't you think somebody from Grimsby or Hull should be able to fly to Florida on a perfectly profitable route from this side of the pennines without having to travel 100s of miles to the north west?

Can you honestly deny that what the real worry is - is that an airport developed at CF will be able to do what LBA never has and never will be able to do - Act as a suitable, accessible airport for the whole of Yorkshire and negate the need to travel to MAN?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

If there's no service to Brussels and limited to Paris, you need to work out that this is a direct correlation to demand. Not rocket science and not some mad conspiracy to keep the MAN routes going at all cost, Shaving minutes of a passenger's travel time is not going to influence where a passenger flies from.

It is a direct correlation of demand - only people within the enclosed Leeds city region are using LBA- the other critical 2.5 million people are staying on the motorway and train to an airport that is not fog bound or suffering 50mph crosswinds. A suitable airport in a suitable place and well connected just like MAN ie lets battle on a level playing field. I think you just know it will hurt MAN more than Yeadon will ever be able to.

It should happen but southern and north western politicians will make it not happen just like they did with the trams.

[Manchester Kurt]

LEEDS APPROACH, a while ago I asked if you thought this would be an election issue in May, you didn't respond.

[All names taken]

LA

I admire your enthusiasm and persistence but I think you should also know when to quit.
You've thrown a proposition out there for debate and that's your right and privilege. Fair enough.
But you've been trounced in that debate and now you should gracefully withdraw.

Summary points:
1. There are already too many airports in the North of England
2. The business case for another one cannot be made.
3. All the arguments about a Yorkshire International were previously made in respect of Finningley. The relative failure of that venture will, in itself, be enough evidence to scare off all potential investors in CF whether they are private or public.
4. LBA isn't going to just disappear.
5. If it was 'forced' to close, the owners would demand and receive very substantial compensation for their loss. The government would not be paying this, nor the Yorkshire LAs, nor a private company. So who would?
6. There is nothing stopping SAS or AF or LH serving LBA - or Yorkshire right now - nothing. They don't. Why would the existence of a so called 'proper' airport change that?
7. The Vale of York is a well known 'fog spot' in any case.
8. You are railing (with some justification) about decisions that were taken decades ago and in economic terms are practically irreversible.
9. Cost of associated infrastructure: airfield upgrade, terminal construction, new link roads, rail link (?) would run into hundreds of millions. There are better opportunities to spend the nation's wealth and better opportunities for the reduced number of private airport developers and operators too. This will never be an investment priority.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

LA

I admire your enthusiasm and persistence but I think you should also know when to quit.
You've thrown a proposition out there for debate and that's your right and privilege. Fair enough.
But you've been trounced in that debate and now you should gracefully withdraw.

Summary points:
1. There are already too many airports in the North of England
2. The business case for another one cannot be made.
3. All the arguments about a Yorkshire International were previously made in respect of Finningley. The relative failure of that venture will, in itself, be enough evidence to scare off all potential investors in CF whether they are private or public.
4. LBA isn't going to just disappear.
5. If it was 'forced' to close, the owners would demand and receive very substantial compensation for their loss. The government would not be paying this, nor the Yorkshire LAs, nor a private company. So who would?
6. There is nothing stopping SAS or AF or LH serving LBA - or Yorkshire right now - nothing. They don't. Why would the existence of a so called 'proper' airport change that?
7. The Vale of York is a well known 'fog spot' in any case.
8. You are railing (with some justification) about decisions that were taken decades ago and in economic terms are practically irreversible.
9. Cost of associated infrastructure: airfield upgrade, terminal construction, new link roads, rail link (?) would run into hundreds of millions. There are better opportunities to spend the nation's wealth and better opportunities for the reduced number of private airport developers and operators too. This will never be an investment priority.

Nobody has even been able to offer any kind of counter argument to anything I've stated. I've backed up the debate with irrefutable facts and figures about connection times to Church Fenton, LBA's far from ideal runway and airfield characteristics (as I watch another RYR diverting in a gale force snow storm), why finningley cannot properly represent Yorkshire (shown by its historic downward passenger figures), how LBA is cut off from the motorways and how it can take an hour from airport to motorway. Oh and I may have mentioned Yorkshire's huge population. Everything has been covered logically so I'm not quite sure where I've been 'trounced' as you put it!?

Every one of your points I've covered ad nauseam. A businessman has stated that he intends to run scheduled European flights from Church Fenton - I think I know what he's getting at. There's one of the most popular GA airfields just 2 or 3 miles away!? Very much thin end of the wedge from here. If all goes to plan it will have a huge affect on MAN. It has been needed for years - Yorkshire has lost billions upon billions of pounds because of politicians.

[Manchester Kurt]

LA, that is twice you have ignored my question about whether you think this will become an election issue come May.


Suggests you know it won't.


Suggests you realise that not only is there no economic case but also no political case for this to happen.


Whilst your enthusiasm is laudable, your inability to recognise that there is no economic nor political imperative explains why you fail to understand the current position and why things will not change.


You see airlines and airports as social services, there to benefit the local population, fundamentally that is where your position is broken.

[Andy_S]

Nobody has even been able to offer any kind of counter argument to anything I've stated.....

I think, with that statement, we've entered the realms of the absurd........

[LAX_LHR]

Nobody has even been able to offer any kind of counter argument to anything I've stated


I think you'll find nobody has offered a 'counter argument' because you need a convincing case to begin with for anyone to be able to 'counter argue' against it.....

[LEEDS APPROACH]

LA, that is twice you have ignored my question about whether you think this will become an election issue come May.


Suggests you know it won't.


Suggests you realise that not only is there no economic case but also no political case for this to happen.


Whilst your enthusiasm is laudable, your inability to recognise that there is no economic nor political imperative explains why you fail to understand the current position and why things will not change.


You see airlines and airports as social services, there to benefit the local population, fundamentally that is where your position is broken.

Fair play to you Kurt, at least you don't hide where you're from. Sorry I forgot your posts - No I don't think it will be an election issue. Young tax payers do expect to be treated fairly though (much more than the old stoic Yorkies who just put up with crap). How come someone in Manchester gets to ride on a brand new tram direct to an airport with a direct flight to Florida when someone in Leeds has to go on a drafty old bus to an aerodrome on a hill to watch his flight to Dublin (before America) have to divert in a gale? We pay the same taxes so the services should be more equal.

[MANFOD]

I'm just surprised the mods haven't called enough on this, given what happened on the MAN thread, when in my view most of the debate then, although lengthy, was well articulated and reasoned. It was labelled as drivel and not directly concerned with MAN airport although the issues under discussion affected MAN. This debate seems focused on the alleged benefits of Church Fenton by one contributor. Perhaps it would be better if folk stopped responding.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I think you'll find nobody has offered a 'counter argument' because you need a convincing case to begin with for anyone to be able to 'counter argue' against it.....

Which bit don't you agree with? There is absolutely no reason why there should not be a 'fit for purpose', well connected airport for the West of the pennines and one for the East of the pennines.

7 million people in the west and 5.3 million people in the east. Why is that an unrealistic ask?

[Manchester Kurt]

The tram line was paid for locally, through local taxes with a huge payment from the airport. Maybe you should be complaining that your local population aren't calling for you local politicians to fund improvements in the links to the airport, as happened in Manc in 2004.

Remember when I posted a link to local transport priorities in West Yorkshire?

Why would central government fund a scheme that's not even a local priority in West Yorkshire?

The fights are clearly commercial decisions, something you seem to struggle with the concept of.

The reason it won't happen is because their is limited local demand politically and no economic case.

Simple.

Updated: LA you seem very poorly informed...

A new Metrolink line to the Airport is also under construction. It will extend from the South Manchester Line at Chorlton and run on 14.5km (9 miles) of new track via Northern Moor, Baguley, and Wythenshawe to Manchester Airport with 15 stops. The line is planned to open in 2016. The scheme is being financed by local funding as part of the Greater Manchester Transport Fund Programme.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=gB_JVNfSFcHU7AaMpIGgAQ&url=http://www.tfgm.com/ltp3/Documents/Manchester-LAIP-Transport-for-Greater-Manchester-Addendum.pdf&ved=0CDgQFjAJ&usg=AFQjCNFlCsu9BEdLPS3DJB9wg1g44-1l3w&sig2=a9F78HwmXdc0taImM8BS-A

Seems if you took the time to better understand how the real world operates you'd better understand why it's as it is.

Suppose the question back to you is if you think all areas should be treated equally in terms of infrastructure development, then why should Leeds get centrally funded https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=gB_JVNfSFcHU7AaMpIGgAQ&url=http://www.tfgm.com/ltp3/Documents/Manchester-LAIP-Transport-for-Greater-Manchester-Addendum.pdf&ved=0CDgQFjAJ&usg=AFQjCNFlCsu9BEdLPS3DJB9wg1g44-1l3w&sig2=a9F78HwmXdc0taImM8BS-Aimprovements when Manc had to fund it locally? Thought you wanted it to be 'fair'?

[682ft AMSL]

The tram line was paid for locally, through local taxes with a huge payment from the airport. Maybe you should be complaining that your local population aren't calling for you local politicians to fund improvements in the links to the airport, as happened in Manc in 2004.

Remember when I posted a link to local transport priorities in West Yorkshire?

Why would central government fund a scheme that's not even a local priority in West Yorkshire?

It is a priority. A link road to the airport from the A65, close to the Leeds Outer Ring Road was recommended by the Govt and is included as a funded project in the West Yorks Combined Authority transport plan.

http://www.leeds.gov.uk/news/pages/£1.4bn-programme-of-transport-improvements-agreed-for-West-Yorkshire-and-York.aspx

[Homo Simpson]

LA

Firstly your enthusiasm aside you have absolutely no idea how airlines and airports operate.
Your arguments are way too simplistic and pure fantasy. I think you have an issue with Manchester in general which is clouding any rational thinking. Your arguments have been torn to pieces but you won't accept that. Fair enough you are entitled to your beliefs but CF will never happen and Yorkshire will not have an airport to fly the millions around the globe you seem to think it deserves.
As I have stated and others too LBA will continue to offer flights and I am sure passenger numbers and destinations will increase but the simple fact is there are not enough willing passengers to make anything more economically worthwhile. Just having 5 million living in your region does not mean airlines flying them all over the place on nice jets.
Airlines will go where they can get the most passengers and profit. That's Manchester not LBA and certainly not CF.
As for where I live or lived, well I don't live in Manchester and haven't for many years. Whether MAN does well or not does not affect me but what I can see is the massive importance it has for the whole of the North. LBA has a more local benefit and quite rightly so but anything more than that for Yorkshire won't happen. Airlines are what matters and they have shown what they want.

[Manchester Kurt]

Yes, and they can progress with that.

I was replying to the suggestion that a tram line to Manc was unfair as equivalent isn't provided by central government to Leeds.

LA is clearly uninformed about how these things get progressed.

[rod_1986]

Oh lord, LA if you've got the money to buy and develop Church Fenton, then please go ahead.

If not, perhaps pipe down and let's get this thread back on topic?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

It is a priority. A link road to the airport from the A65, close to the Leeds Outer Ring Road was recommended by the Govt and is included as a funded project in the West Yorks Combined Authority transport plan.

http://www.leeds.gov.uk/news/pages/£1.4bn-programme-of-transport-improvements-agreed-for-West-Yorkshire-and-York.aspx

Don't you think this is a complete waste of money and very short term thinking? Millions of pounds for a link road to an airport that is full and very difficult and expensive to improve with a terrible winter weather record. No real prospect of longer range routes from that runway. Planes are parked on the taxiways now. What airside development has there been in the last 8 years apart from a tin weather tunnel? Where is the planning for the medium and long term? Wallpaper over a great big crack! Time for a new wall.

[Manchester Kurt]

Yet that is YOUR local politicians priority.

Politicians elected directly by the population of Yorkshire.

The population of Yorkshire who clearly have different properties to yourself.

Nothing to do with central government, nothing to do with Manchester.

Perhaps you need to look far closer to home to understand why things develop as they do and not jump to uniformed ideas that are incorrect.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I wont be arguing with manc plane / tram spotters anymore. Glasgow and Edinburgh have perfectly fine airports and so should the two sides of the pennines. Both in suitable locations with usable runways and well connected. Only politicians will deny this. Yorkshire has propped MAN up for too long by having a completely inadequate airport. I will watch what happens at CF with interest.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Yet that is YOUR local politicians priority.

Politicians elected directly by the population of Yorkshire.

The population of Yorkshire who clearly have different properties to yourself.

Nothing to do with central government, nothing to do with Manchester.

Perhaps you need to look far closer to home to understand why things develop as they do and not jump to uniformed ideas that are incorrect.

They are Leeds politicians and don't want to lose what LBA gives them. This is the problem in Yorkshire - no cooperation for the greater good. I've never even mentioned central govt. at all. Everything you write kurtney you get slightly wrong but i'll keep putting you right.

[Manchester Kurt]

You confuse arguing with someone highlighting how your mistaken view of the world has occurred.

There is no local or national political desire to see what you want.

The economics don't make sense.

You don't understand why what's important to you is entirely irrelevant to the point you're trying to make.

What's fair isn't relevant, airports and airlines are commercial enterprises, there's no reason to think that they'll be evenly spread across the country as you seem to desire.

[eggc]

That's been posted already several times by more than one person. One thinks your wasting your time Kurt as the important things in today's commercial aviation LA does not seem to want to hear, consider or accept !

[canberra97]

OMG What a real **** this LEEDS APPROACH is.

You keep telling him Kurt:ok: as this guy needs to be put down as he has no idea of Aviation and how Airports are run, he clearly lives in a fantasy world!

[Fairdealfrank]

I'm just surprised the mods haven't called enough on this, given what happened on the MAN thread, when in my view most of the debate then, although lengthy, was well articulated and reasoned.


Can we expect some rude comments from a troll on another forum?


Yeadon v. Church Fenton

This is exactly the same as Heathrow v. Boris..........and we all know what happened to the estuary airport: the Commission sunk it without trace.

[BKS Air Transport]

A polite request...


Could we keep the Church Fenton related stuff to its own thread, and leave this one to topics directly connected to Leeds/Bradford Airport? And if possible please something a bit more interesting than flight XX zzz spent 15 minutes holding yesterday...


Thanks

[682ft AMSL]

Interesting article here.

Also, Aer Lingus going to 3 x daily on Friday's in the summer.

Why Leeds Bradford Airport is on the rise - Yorkshire Post (http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/features/why-leeds-bradford-airport-is-on-the-rise-1-7083753)

Last year Leeds Bradford Airport welcomed a record number of passengers. But what are the challenges ahead? Chris Bond spoke to chief executive John Parkin.

LOOKING out of his office window John Parkin has good reason to be happy.

The snowy panorama might be a headache for anyone running a major airport, but it’s going to take more than Arctic winds and a flurry of snowflakes to blow Leeds Bradford Airport’s plans off course.

Last year was a record-breaking year for the airport with 3.3 million passengers passing through the terminal – the biggest figure in its 84-year history. Not only that but it has been the fastest growing regional airport over the last five years, while last month British Airways celebrated its 250,000th passenger flying on the London Heathrow route since it was launched two years ago.

British Airways is one of three airlines that have started operating flights here in the last two years, along with Aer Lingus and Monarch, and they, along with the likes of Jet2 – which now flies to 48 destinations from Leeds Bradford – have helped boost passenger numbers.

But it hasn’t all been plain sailing. Parkin took over as the airport’s chief executive in 2007, just as the world was about to slip into economic meltdown. The global financial crash had a dramatic impact on the aviation industry and passenger numbers at Leeds Bradford fell to 2.4 million. This might still sound like a lot, but airports are all about footfall and when passenger numbers drop that spells bad news.

“The market was seismically hit,” admits Parkin, “but what we’ve done in the teeth of the worst economic gale I’ve ever seen in my career is we’ve grown the number of passengers when many airports have gone backwards.”

In 2012, £11m was spent improving the terminal and there are plans for further upgrades with work about to start on a new “premium” car park at the front of the airport which will include a covered walkway to the terminal.

The website has recently been revamped and from the middle of next month passengers will be able to access free, ‘super-fast’ broadband. “As we stand at the moment our broadband is really frustrating because it’s so slow, but this will be the fastest broadband service of any airport in the world, so you will be able to download movies and check your emails.”

Waiting at an airport can be a tedious experience and all of this is aimed at making it a little more comfortable. But Parkin’s main job is to convince people that they can get to where they want to go by using his airport. “We want to get the message across that you can get anywhere in the world from here and you can do it pretty easily,” he says.

In the past one of the criticisms has been the lack of destinations once you go beyond Europe’s boundaries, which is why the airport has recently introduced flights to Dubai, via Amsterdam, with KLM. Parkin also points to the success of the British Airways flights to Heathrow. “The fact we fly to terminal 5 has been a big plus because it means people can then head off to LA or Sydney, or wherever else.”

Increasing the number of destinations people can fly to isn’t the only reason for the rise in passenger numbers. “One of the reasons why we are continuing to grow is that people want the right price but they also want convenience. When you’ve been on holiday you just want to get home and that’s where regional airports score highly.”

Despite its success there are still challenges facing Leeds Bradford, not least the vexed issue of traffic congestion on nearby roads, and the long-standing question of whether the airport will get a rail link. Manchester Airport has its own train station while at Newcastle they’ve had a metro link for more than 20 years now. There has been a lot of talk about building a train connection to Leeds Bradford and while it remains part of the long-term plan, this hasn’t yet translated to work on the ground.

As is often the case with projects of this size, the cost is the main sticking point. But Parkin wants to see it happen and says a rail link connecting the airport to the existing Harrogate line is “achievable”. He says the network between Harrogate, York, Leeds and Bradford is incomplete and that an airport link could close the gap. “The Leeds City Region Enterprise Partnership (LEP) supports this and there is support from the government for it, too. There is a big political push towards the North of England right now, and high time too, so we need to keep at it and that’s what we’re doing.”

He is keenly aware of the impact the airport can, and does, have on the regional economy. “It’s like a mini town, only one that never closes. Airports are job creation machines and we have added a thousand jobs here since 2007. We are now one of the biggest employers in the city region with more than 3,000 jobs.” These range from pilots and air traffic controllers, through to baggage handlers and caterers. “If we win a new airline contract the moment that aircraft touches this tarmac jobs are created.”

This idea of a powerful regional infrastructure ties in with his support for HS2. “We have supported that from the very beginning and some people have been surprised by that. Of course we want people on planes but we want a thriving regional economy and we want people to have a choice, so that if they want to fly, or travel by road or rail they can.”

The airport itself has a massive catchment area of around 5.3 million people, yet only five per cent of overseas visitors to York fly into Leeds Bradford – a figure that airport bosses want to see rise to more than 10 per cent by 2017.

Parkin says that Manchester Airport remains their chief rival. “Our biggest challenge, and at the same time opportunity, is we know there are more people flying from Manchester who live in this region than we have passengers.”

Manchester is bigger, of course, and has a wider choice of destinations but Leeds Bradford is expected to more than double its passenger numbers over the next decade. “If you look at some of the recent government reports, Leeds Bradford is picked out as the airport that will be the largest east of the Pennines in ten years’ time because it sits in a massive catchment area that is under served, something we are trying to fix.”

But Parkin believes the airport is on the right path. “Our average statistic for getting bags from the aircraft to people’s hand was eight minutes – that’s pretty good,” he says. “You can only go on what people tell you, we had a lot of people saying to us ‘when are you going to improve the terminal?’, ‘when are you going to have a service to Heathrow’ and when are we going to have more choice of places to fly to? – well, we’re doing all of this.

“There are things we need to improve on but I think if we can get it right then our combination of convenience, price, the right airlines and the right destinations is unbeatable.”

[HOODED]

Nice article. If they intend to double the oveseas passengers coming through the airport maybe they should start looking at adding some more infrastructure. Ac parking is already at a premium. Yes more bums on present servicies doesn't need more parking but if they want to grow they desperately need more servicies. Also the loss of the PIA is not mentioned, that was doing well on that score good load factors bringing in overseas visitors. What is their response? Try to get Air India in. Well the Indian population is tiny compared to the Pakistani population who are now forced to fly from MAN. How about Air India to Delhi then on to ISB or LHE with a 787, that may work.:ok:

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Passenger numbers dropped in the calendar year 2014 from the actual 3.3 million people who did use the airport in 2013. Just completely misleading PR claptrap.

An airport being left behind. I cant wait for the masterplan to be released in a month (crossed fingers). It should have kept the local population updated on airport plans in 2011. Perhaps there was little to say!?

So glad a service to Dubai has been added via Amsterdam while the B777 to Pakistan quietly bit the dust- you could not make it up! Still dreaming of a rail connection to be built for an airport that may possibly add 2 more million passengers. Then what happens?

I hope the link road to near the busy ring road goes ahead - after all housing estates need connecting too.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

'...only five per cent of overseas visitors to York fly into Leeds Bradford – a figure that airport bosses want to see rise to more than 10 per cent by 2017.'

I know a good way of changing this figure.... please proceed to the Church Fenton thread.

The airport always wants to do certain things by certain dates but there is a very good reason why they never happen. Will people remember this 'wish' in 2017? Even 10% is miniscule to what it should be.

I absolutely hate PR and spin doctorism in the aviation industry these days.

[HOODED]

Leeds Approach. Adding 2 million more passengers would cement the airports position as a top 15 UK airport. Despite all the problems it has it has recently been one of the fastest growing airports in the UK. Yes it should be top 10 based on the size of the Cities it serves, note I didn't say catchment as we all know the poor road/Rail links mean it cannot serve as well as it should.

Let's just be thankful the place does as well as it does with all its constraints.

[cornishsimon]

Overseas is all very well but how about UK connectivity. How many UK airports currently don't have a service to LBA ?


cs

[anothertyke]

Given the geography that question should be rephrased 'How many airports over 200 miles away or more than four hours by rail does Leeds not have a service to/from?'

[cornishsimon]

What they said .....

cs

[anothertyke]

Well I expect you know yourself : Exeter not since South West ; Cardiff not for years ; Inverness not since T3 dropped it. Dundee never. Bristol, Edinburgh and Gatwick have all been tried several times but Cross Country and East Coast have upped their game in various respects. Have I left any out? Those days of thin long distance services excepting oil destinations and excepting across the water seem to me largely a thing of the past.

[BKS Air Transport]

Exeter was operated by flybe; ASW did Plymouth and Newquay. If you go back to the 70's, Norwich and Stansted were both operated at some stage, as was Bournemouth.

[Mr Mac]

All
I like the PR spin about a KLM connection to DXB via AMS using a 777 on the last leg. Do we ignore the 3nr direct flights from MAN with a 380 on two of them. Chauffer drive to the airport for free from most of West Yorkshire as well for Premium class,s . Not to mention the marked difference between KLM and EK standard of service. Its grabbing at straws is that by LBA.


Regards
Mr Mac

[HOODED]

Yes, perhaps they should have tried to get EK to do Dubai from LBA then. Shame they're getting rid of the A330s and cancelled their A350s. But then again they're probably filling a 77W from MAN with Yorkshire passengers daily so they won't want to operate from LBA. It's a bit like PIA really the pax are there but it's better to operate from an established base and make the pax come to them. Sad but that's the reality.

[righthandrule]

They are not getting rid of the A330's for a while yet, however the A340's are going rapidly. The A330's are used on short/medium haul middle eastern routes and to open up new European destinations, such as the recent Budapest route and they have also operated to Warsaw recently and much like they did to Newcastle before the 777 upgrade.

Of course it is far easier to get the passengers to come to the airport (in MAN's case) and there is no question that MAN is hugely successful for Emirates. However, the conurbations of the North West and Yorkshire are very large, and it is all well and good saying Emirates could go 4th daily to MAN, however any departure time ex the UK or Dubai other than they current three departures would be pretty rubbish for onward connections. The whole of the EK network is planned on three main departure/arrival waves. Adding another flight ex MAN say at 11:00 or 17:00 or 23:00 would not offer anything realistic. Before someone barks at me about the EK departure times from LHR to DXB... that route is dramatically different and carries a much larger point to point amount of customers that rely on frequency between Dubai and London and not on connections. MAN however is much heavier with onward connections and the point to point traffic is minimal.

The point that I am getting at, is that Emirates could up gauge the 3rd flight to MAN to an A380, which is very realistic. However long term, there are a hell of a lot of aircraft that they will be receiving each year. Increasing from 777 to 380 is a decent percentage increase but in the long term (5-10 years) growth opportunities are limited at the current UK airports Emirates serve, in comparison to their forecasted passenger growth.

Whilst I doubt it will happen in the next few years, I think routes to Dubai from other UK airports, the likes of Leeds, East Mids, Bristol and Edinburgh may seem like a pipe dream but are fairly possible with A330/B777-200 aircraft. Emirates have set their eyes on the passengers that BA/KLM/Lufthansa etc carry from the UK eastbound and win pretty much hands down on every count. They literally have hundreds of aircraft on order, and with a very young fleet, and the new DWC airport... the next 10 years are going to be game changing for the European aviation industry as they really are going for worldwide connections and are going to need as much feed as possible from the west. I have family in Dubai and Abu Dhabi that actually use KLM from LBA as it is often cheaper than Emirates - there is definitely a potential market.

An A330 from LBA-DXB would be ideal, the affluent community around LBA would no doubt help support point to point to Dubai, and also connections to exotic holiday destinations, and the local asian community would clearly support onward connections to Pakistan and India. We just need to sit and wait and hope Tony Hallwood takes the Sheikhs out for a few fancy dinners :rolleyes:

[Ringwayman]

MAN however is much heavier with onward connections and the point to point traffic is minimal.

In my book any route that has 200,000 passengers O+D long-haul is anything but minimal.

[LAX_LHR]

Adding another flight ex MAN say at 11:00 or 17:00 or 23:00 would not offer anything realistic. Before someone barks at me about the EK departure times from LHR to DXB... that route is dramatically different and carries a much larger point to point amount of customers that rely on frequency between Dubai and London and not on connections.


Adding a flight to MAN using a similar timing to the EK29 at LHR could relieve pressure on the EK18, and also catch the back end of the main hub wave. Also, a B777 will add the cargo capacity that MAN is now well down on.

MAN however is much heavier with onward connections and the point to point traffic is minimal.

Actually, EK themselves have said about 28% of MAN passenger are terminating at Dubai, which, incidently may seem a small amount, but, it was the highest percentage of total pax for them. When you consider how many connection oppertunites are oresent on MAN-DXB-XXX, to see 28% are terminating at DXB is quite a healty number. That of course doesnt include and MAN-XXX-DXB pax on other airlines.


Its also worth rememberig that Dubai is working hard in becoming a destination in its own right.


In other words, its not as easy to rule out a 4th daily flight at MAN as you seem to think.

[righthandrule]

Of course, I fully agree.

What I'm trying to say though, is a 13:00-14:00 departure from LBA/EMA/BRS or wherever else, would have greater scope to add value to the overall picture of the Emirates network of connections as apposed to an extra flight from MAN at an unsuitable time to really have a major benefit other than some very tight or middle east connections.

Dubai is indeed working to be a tourist destination, I have actually lived here for nearly 2 years now but still class myself as a UK resident. However the UK-Dubai tourist market is still very limited. The majority of tourists (al-la package holiday that we know as tourists) come from Russia, the Brits still love a week in Tenerife in the winter and have yet to fully embrace Dubai. Whilst the numbers are significant, the bigger percentage of point to point traffic to/from Dubai is visiting friends and relatives traffic. In any case, like I said, adding capacity to MAN is clearly the primary and almost certain next step, but in the long term, increasing the range of destinations is for sure how they will continue to grow. The MAN/BHX/GLA die hard fans will for sure be in favour of growth at their respective airports but other airlines clearly see decent potential at airports such as LBA/EMA/BRS/GLA etc and with Emirates rate of growth, they will be after any slice of the pie they can. I mean lets face it, who the hell would have ever thought BA would touch LBA with a barge pole, and now they have made a success of it.

[cornishsimon]

Are BA really making a success of LBA-LHR ?


cs

[HOODED]

No its a slot sitter. It's official, well it's on the Heathrow thread as such. Just passed 250000 pax since it started....

[Airbanda]

No its a slot sitter. It's official, well it's on the Heathrow thread as such. Just passed 250000 pax since it started....

Slot sitting and commercial success are not mutually exclusive.....

[Suzeman]

And of course EK still have space to develop another wave at DXB to utilise all these additional aircraft.....

[EK77WNCL]

I think there could be a place for EK at LBA, possibly if they re-order the A350's or order some 787's/A330neo's. Having said that a 77L/77W could likely operate "no problem" from LBA, apart from taxiing a 77W at LBA might take a bit of careful nurture and getting used to, I've heard LBA can be tight.

Speaking of Emirates' waves, when is their third and smallest wave? But they are going to get a lot more complicated than they are now, I won't envy the poor guys in charge of organising it all when DWC opens

[Fairdealfrank]

No its a slot sitter. It's official, well it's on the Heathrow thread as such. Just passed 250000 pax since it started....


No it's not.

Some one on the Heathrow thread saying that it's a slot sitter, is not sufficient evidence to back up this assertion.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

In 2003/4 check in hall B was constructed at LBIA. It was built due to Jet2's rapid growth brought about by the deal that the joint council owners of the airport had facilitated with Jet2.

The check in hall was a fabric containing tent like structure. The structure was designed to be temporary because the councils admitted that they did not have the funds to provide a proper enlarged terminal building.

Eventually the councils decided to sell the airport to a company that could build the necessary terminal enlargement. Various extensions to planning applications have led the temporary check in hall to have now lasted approaching 11 years.

Now we hear that the airport owners want to make this temporary building into a permanent building while at the same time giving no guarantees on when any actual terminal enlargement will begin.

Well Leeds City Council now is your time to stand your ground (or there was never any point in you selling LBA). The temporary check in hall B building should only be kept standing if a proper terminal expansion is begun in the next 6 months.

The recession is over so why are B757s being parked on the taxiways? Why no building of extra aircraft stands in the last 8 years?

MAN, BHX, BRS, NCL, EDI, LCY etc etc all growing fast so can the recession really be still trotted out as an excuse?

LBA is in the wrong location, it is very poorly connected, it has too short a runway, it has a runway perpendicular to prevailing wind, it has an obstruction at the end of one runway, it has a valley at the end of one runway, it is the highest above sea level civil airport in Britain and is frequently affected by weather, it has very little flat land to develop.

Leeds City Council polish and polish and polish as much as you like it's time you gave the people of Leeds and Yorkshire something a little less temporary.

[EK77WNCL]

To be fair like I wouldn't say NCL is growing rapidly. A shadow of it's former self in terms of growth/being one of the fastest growing in the UK, but hopefully with United comes prosperity, I look forward to breaching 5mppa once again in the near future!

Anyway back to LBA, I find it a perfectly pleasant airport to travel from and it was the first airport I passed through unaccompanied, LBA-BGY-LBA in August 2012 when I was 14.

[Mr Mac]

Just came through LBA on the way back from Ireland. Very quiet but a lot of parked up A/C, is it always so quiet on a Wednesday.


Regards
Mr Mac.

[SWBKCB]

Mr Mac - In February, mid week at most regional airports is quiet

Leeds Approach - other than being the planning authority (?) what influence do Leeds City Council still have?

[Mr Mac]

SWBKCB
It was not just quiet, but there were a number of parked up Boeings with Jet 2 logos 8+ which all seemed as though they had been shut down for some time. Odd place to store a plane for winter if that is what it is. Anyway I do not use the place much so this maybe as you say std for a Feb mid week day at LBA.


Regards
Mr Mac

[Ian Brooks]

Mr Mac
Most of Jet2 aircraft parked at Manchester on a winter wednesday also
as there is very little demand at this time of year and as they own most of the aircraft they do not need to fly the high hours a leased aircraft does,
by weekend most aircraft will be flying of to ski resorts.

Ian

[commit aviation]

Standard for a February Wednesday in many places!!


At STN the other Wednesday only 1 EZY jet aircraft departed during the morning. The other 7 remained parked up until after lunch(& some all day.)


Airlines will fly if they can cover their direct operating costs but little point doing so if you can't & Wednesday in winter is a slow time in this business.

[BKS Air Transport]

Ok so not big news, but local paper reporting that the airport bus routes are going to have some changes from early March. In particular the Leeds City Centre (757) service will have some frequency increases including an hourly all-night service.

[111KAB]

Had understood that MON were cutting back at LBA but this article seems to suggest otherwise ... https://bdaily.co.uk/hospitality/20-02-2015/interview-monarch-airlines-chief-on-yorkshire-expansion/

[N707ZS]

Prices will need to be cut-throat on Alicante! to compete with the opposition.

[paully]

Just seen this...

BBC News - Anger over rise in Leeds Bradford Airport drop-off fee (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-31551905)

Seems a wapping increase tbh. I`m sure this is bound to provoke some controversy

[speedbird9274]

Fair enough the terminal front drop-off has increased in price, but we do have a free one hour, YES FREE parking area 150m from the terminal.

[dancava]

LBA is the only airport I know of that implement a charge (£1 per pax) to smoke outside, airside. Does any other airport charge in the UK? Is this charge fair when pax can smoke for free at MAN T1?

Where is the free parking 150 metres away, at the bottom? Is it signposted?

Have the local council/airport managed to get a road sign yet up on the main road directing traffic flow into the airport for those who are ignorant to its whereabouts? It was missing for quite some time and I forgot to check last month.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach …

If you think that there should only be one airport in Yorkshire, then I actually think DSA should be the primary airport for Yorkshire, it's got a 3,000m runway, a new motorway spur which opens in less than a year meaning direct uncontested access to the UK's main motorway, a train track that runs less then 1.5 miles from the airport that just needs a platform, and a major national rail gateway 3 miles away (Doncaster is a major junction and on the London - Scotland line). It's not on a hill, doesn't suffer crosswinds, is rarely fogged out, has a ton of room for expansion and a CAT III ILS.

The downside for DSA is that Leeds has a stronger economy than sheffield, and that is what supports a lot of the business traffic, but according to Google, DSA is only 55 mins away by road and a relatively congestion free journey (Can take longer to get to LBA sometimes) then I don't see that as a major problem … and when the M18 link road opens that will shave 15-20 mins off the journey time meaning it is likely just as quick ...

The only reason it is not the primary airport is that Leeds was open before hand, but as much as you won't like this Leeds Approach, LBA is in the wrong place and a nightmare airport …

I agree with all of that. Yeadon is far from ideal but it has over 2 million people right on its doorstep. Despite all the benefits that DSA has it will never be able to shut Yeadon (because of its location) and therefore its catchment will always be a small enclave between EMA and LBA and to some extent HUY. The only viable answer is to replace both airports with an airport that has DSA's aviation characteristics and yet is much closer and more accessible to the thriving Leeds City region as well as all other parts of Yorkshire.

[cumbrianboy]

Yes I agree but as you've more chance of hell freezing over than convincing out anti aviation politicians to build another airport, DSA is the next best alternative!

But it's all fantasy, in reality I think both will eventually do well and find their niche ... Leeds may well be the commuter hub and DSA will become the leisure hub. I'm sure therell be some overlap between them however!

[Fairdealfrank]

The only viable answer is to replace both airports with an airport that has DSA's aviation characteristics and yet is much closer and more accessible to the thriving Leeds City region as well as all other parts of Yorkshire.


You can't "replace" Yeadon and Finningley, the owners probably would not agree. So Yorkshire airport #3 would be competing with them.

Not going to happen. It's as futile an argument as the Boris Island nonsense.




Yes I agree but as you've more chance of hell freezing over than convincing out anti aviation politicians to build another airport, DSA is the next best alternative!


Politicians don't build/extend airports, they just put obstacles in front of those who want to.

[cumbrianboy]

but politicians do hold the power to grant planning applications. If DSA had been built 5 years earlier than it was as was the plan and had the manchester politicians not been so protectionist over MAN then it would be a different story today ...

[LEEDS APPROACH]

[QUOTE=Fairdealfrank;8903192]You can't "replace" Yeadon and Finningley, the owners probably would not agree. So Yorkshire airport #3 would be competing with them.

Not going to happen. It's as futile an argument as the Boris Island nonsense.


I don't think finningley owners would agree to be replaced (just as MME are digging their heels in). I think Yeadon owners are starting to realise what the previous owners (group of local councils[including Leeds City Council]) came to understand about the airport when they owned it. I do not know the full in and outs of the political situation but realise that LBA sits within Leeds City Council jurisdiction. If you google 'calls for new Leeds airport' then you begin to see the possibility of how 3 becomes 2 and subsequently 2 becomes 1. Btw this situation is as different to Boris Island as you can get. Yorkshire has never had an airport that properly represents it whereas London most certainly has. Ok you're still not buying it. I agree with you about politicians though ideally they should keep right out of anything to do with aviation.

[pug]

but politicians do hold the power to grant planning applications. If DSA had been built 5 years earlier than it was as was the plan and had the manchester politicians not been so protectionist over MAN then it would be a different story today ...

Where this conspiracy come from? Was it not MAN that initially looked into developing DSA but found it to be unviable? Hence buying into HUY and Peel purchasing the site? I would think that any proposed new airport would need a public enquiry, however it seems that this far the wrong decision may have been made..

LBA is not ideally located, but the M62 corridor only generates a finite number of passengers, and MAN is well located to consolidate all long haul services to the benefit of the North. The rest will support their own regional airports based on regional demand, and Leeds has enough of that to suit infra European services..

[LEEDS APPROACH]

LBA is not ideally located, but the M62 corridor only generates a finite number of passengers, and MAN is well located to consolidate all long haul services to the benefit of the North. The rest will support their own regional airports based on regional demand, and Leeds has enough of that to suit infra European services..

It really is not about the M62 corridor it is about the entirety of Yorkshire and the Humber and its 5.4 million inhabitants. Have a 'fit for purpose' airport that is the number one choice because of geographic location and ease of accessibility for those people and you will have an airport that moves 10+ million passengers. Have LBA and DSA fighting against each other as well as fighting against MAN and EMA and the combined total of DSA/LBA will only very gradually struggle upwards to around 5 million. It is called divide and rule - Yorkshire being divided up in aviation terms will only aid competing region airports. Yorkshire will benefit much more by having 1 successful airport rather than 2 strugglers.

[LAX_LHR]

Oh man, here comes Church Fenton stuff again!

[Fairdealfrank]

QUOTE=Fairdealfrank;8903192]You can't "replace" Yeadon and Finningley, the owners probably would not agree. So Yorkshire airport #3 would be competing with them.

Not going to happen. It's as futile an argument as the Boris Island nonsense.


I don't think finningley owners would agree to be replaced (just as MME are digging their heels in). I think Yeadon owners are starting to realise what the previous owners (group of local councils[including Leeds City Council]) came to understand about the airport when they owned it. I do not know the full in and outs of the political situation but realise that LBA sits within Leeds City Council jurisdiction. If you google 'calls for new Leeds airport' then you begin to see the possibility of how 3 becomes 2 and subsequently 2 becomes 1. Btw this situation is as different to Boris Island as you can get. Yorkshire has never had an airport that properly represents it whereas London most certainly has. Ok you're still not buying it. I agree with you about politicians though ideally they should keep right out of anything to do with aviation.
It (Church Fenton) is exactly the same as Boris Island in the sense that (1) it is unviable because it cannot survive alongside existing airports; (2) a business case cannot be made as existing airports cannot be forced to close; (3) not enough demand for an additional airport; (4) pax and carriers want to be elsewhere (LBA); (5) it will never be built and may be seen as a vanity project.

"Yorkshire has never had an airport that properly represents it" because airports usually associate themselves with cities or towns, not counties.
Several airports in the south east of England prefix their names with "London-". Only one of the six official IATA London airports is fairly central (LCY), the others are miles out of town.

Alternatively, politicians could be supportive of aviation. Oh look, another flock of pigs just flew overhead.

[BKS Air Transport]

I agree entirely. The currency of international travel is the city. Regions/counties or whatever you wish to call them are meaningless outside their own country. Just look at how many atlas pages show 'Yorkshire', 'Tuscany', 'Lower Saxony' etc.


The argument for a 'Yorkshire' airport also relies on an assumption that residents of the region will automatically flow to an airport located in the centre. I would argue this is flawed: those in the north will still consider Newcastle, those in the west Manchester and those in the south East Midlands, just as they do now.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Frank. Did you actually read my post?-it will help you with your points. Leeds east airport will be a fit for purpose number 1 airport of choice for the whole of Yorkshire and the Humber (bigger population than Norway) when fully developed. Meadowhall 15 min. Doncaster 15 min. Leeds 10 min. Hull 30 min. etc It will be a Yorkshire airport as it will be the quickest, easiest and most accessible airport for all but the very south of sheffield. ECML HS2 HS3 should be a big enough clue for you combined with recent developments. Night.

[Fairdealfrank]

Frank. Did you actually read my post?
Read all of them with interest, LEEDS APPROACH, would be unable to comment otherwise. Just don't agree, there will be no "Leeds East" at Church Fenton, or elsewhere.

BKS Air Transport (post #2470 just above) made a very good point that we both missed.


Meadowhall 15 min. Doncaster 15 min. Leeds 10 min. Hull 30 min. etc
These are travelling times to/from where? "Leeds East"? By helicopter?


ECML HS2 HS3 should be a big enough clue for you combined with recent developments.
Two out of three don't exist, probably never will, and in the unlikely event that they are ever built, Leeds is the northern end of one and the eastern end of the other.

Which particular "recent developments"?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

The argument for a 'Yorkshire' airport also relies on an assumption that residents of the region will automatically flow to an airport located in the centre. I would argue this is flawed: those in the north will still consider Newcastle, those in the west Manchester and those in the south East Midlands, just as they do now.

No it relies on the assumption that residents of the region will automatically flow to an airport that is the quickest and easiest to get to. Yes other factors such as range of services and price of flights do come into the equation but ease and speed of getting to an airport is a 'set in stone' principle across the globe. Leeds East airport (which already exists by the way-biz jets are landing) geographically fits these parameters for the vast majority of the Yorkshire and Humber population (link road being a proviso). LBA and DSA are in the wrong locations and are fighting against one another. That is why a Belfast service was not viable from both airports and hence passengers from Doncaster for example head to EMA now. This would not happen if there was a service airport at Leeds East as Doncaster is 15 minutes away by ECML train. Yes there is no station on the ECML at Leeds East at present but there is the potential and that is the key. Is LBA on the ECML? Ok HS3 does not exist but the Transpennine express does. A Leeds to Church Fenton none stopping train would take about 17 minutes. HS2 (if it is built) does not just go to Leeds it joins the ECML/Transpennine express at Leeds East Airport. There are trains even now from Sheffield and Hull that stop at Church Fenton train station. There is massive potential as regards train connections especially to Leeds East airport. All that will stop this project for the whole North East are the politicians who have already spent billions in the north west.

[Andy_S]

All that will stop this project for the whole North East are the politicians who have already spent billions in the north west.

And the lack of funding.

[Fairdealfrank]

No it relies on the assumption that residents of the region will automatically flow to an airport that is the quickest and easiest to get to. Yes other factors such as range of services and price of flights do come into the equation but ease and speed of getting to an airport is a 'set in stone' principle across the globe. Leeds East airport (which already exists by the way-biz jets are landing) geographically fits these parameters for the vast majority of the Yorkshire and Humber population (link road being a proviso).


You’re falling into the trap of regarding the county of Yorkshire as a homogeneous catchment area for an airport at Church Fenton. It doesn’t work like that. Just because it’s in existence as a business jet airport doesn’t mean it will become a regional civil airport.



LBA and DSA are in the wrong locations and are fighting against one another. That is why a Belfast service was not viable from both airports and hence passengers from Doncaster for example head to EMA now. This would not happen if there was a service airport at Leeds East as Doncaster is 15 minutes away by ECML train. Yes there is no station on the ECML at Leeds East at present but there is the potential and that is the key. Is LBA on the ECML? Ok HS3 does not exist but the Transpennine express does. A Leeds to Church Fenton none stopping train would take about 17 minutes.

The same arguments could be made for Northolt which has good potential surface communications and just needs an airport station. There is no chance of that airport becoming a replacement for Heathrow or a county airport for Middlesex, despite having business/general aviation (and an RAF presence). Life simply isn’t like that.


HS2 (if it is built) does not just go to Leeds it joins the ECML/Transpennine express at Leeds East Airport. There are trains even now from Sheffield and Hull that stop at Church Fenton train station. There is massive potential as regards train connections especially to Leeds East airport. All that will stop this project for the whole North East are the politicians who have already spent billions in the north west.


All that’s stopping Church Fenton is (apologies for being repetitive):
(1) it is unviable because it cannot survive alongside existing airports;
(2) a business case cannot be made as existing airports cannot be forced to close;
(3) there is not enough demand for an additional airport in Leeds;
(4) pax and carriers want to be elsewhere i.e. Yeadon;
(5) it will never be built and may be seen as a vanity project.

[eggc]

Leeds Approach...

I am sure as much is already spent in North East as in North West, maybe just on areas that are not on your radar, or fit your agenda.

...but there is nowt like stats to back that up...in 2013 East / Yorkshire / Humber had £597.50 per member of population spent on infra-structure projects, while the Northwest received £599. If your going to harp on about indifferences then you should be aim those comments at London where the figure was a staggering £5,426 !!! Saying NW gets billions that East / Yorkshire does not get is factually incorrect, sorry !

[LEEDS APPROACH]

And the lack of funding.

Somebody has used private funding to buy the airport. Everybody thought it would be a housing estate or industrial estate. If there was a pan political will to establish a fit for purpose airport in the north east while running down a unsuitable, constrained airport then funding would immediately become available. Politicians have huge power but they can only delay the inevitable for so long. Yorkshire and the Humber inhabitants (and North Eastern inhabitants in general) will not put with being 2nd class citizens in aviation terms any longer. A correctly positioned and connected airport at the expense of two failing airports to the Eastern side of the Pennines is clearly a more than viable project and that is why it has begun.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Leeds Approach...


East / Yorkshire / Humber

I don't know where this place is? As for your stats - they are wrong. Historically the North West has been bailed out year after year. Especially when the population was dropping like a stone in Manchester.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

You’re falling into the trap of regarding the county of Yorkshire as a homogeneous catchment area for an airport at Church Fenton. It doesn’t work like that. Just because it’s in existence as a business jet airport doesn’t mean it will become a regional civil airport.

It's not really a 'trap' my friend it is a recognised process using population area catchment study. The methodology is done for potential airports worldwide. It identifies the exact amount of people within certain differing travel times of exact spots on the globe's surface. I'm glad you are now aware that an airport has just been opened at Leeds East airport.


The same arguments could be made for Northolt which has good potential surface communications and just needs an airport station. There is no chance of that airport becoming a replacement for Heathrow or a county airport for Middlesex, despite having business/general aviation (and an RAF presence). Life simply isn’t like that.

You don't half come out with some nonsense! Comparing an airport 7 miles away from the worlds 3rd busiest stuck in the middle of urban London to what is required in Yorkshire to replace its far from ideal airports. 'Life simply isn't like that' lol. You really should stick to gazing at the planes on the flightpath where you live.


All that’s stopping Church Fenton is (apologies for being repetitive):
(1) it is unviable because it cannot survive alongside existing airports;
(2) a business case cannot be made as existing airports cannot be forced to close;
(3) there is not enough demand for an additional airport in Leeds;
(4) pax and carriers want to be elsewhere i.e. Yeadon;
(5) it will never be built and may be seen as a vanity project.

It is like trying to explain trigonometry to someone who fails to grasp basic maths.

(1) It is viable and hence it has just been created after prolonged study. It is currently surviving along side existing airports.

(2) Business case has been made and hence the airport has just opened. (despite there being a GA airport 2 miles down the road). There is political will to develop a 'new' airport in the Yorkshire region by the Council in direct control of LBA. Leeds City Council decides on whether (or not) LBA's owners can use a temporary building as a check in area for example. [google - 'calls for new Leeds Airport'. ps a lot has happened in the last year.

(3) See answer to point (2).

(4) Please show your evidence for this statement or it will be classed as opinion. If LBA did not exist would airlines want to be at Leeds East Airport with a natural catchment of 5.4 million people?

(5) It has begun to be built and has just been renamed Leeds East Airport and is accepting flights. The development of a fit for purpose airport to replace airports that are known to be far from ideal and underperforming in a region whose population is much bigger than the island of Ireland will never be seen as a vanity project.

[SWBKCB]

Business case has been made and hence the airport has just opened.

It has begun to be built and has just been renamed Leeds East Airport and is accepting flights.


Leeds Approach - is there any evidence that the owners are thinking of Church Fenton in the same way as you are? My understanding is they are thinking more along the lines of emulating somewhere like Staverton rather than Ringway. Either the Strawberry market is doing better than I think or I'd be surprised if they have access to the sort of cash you're talking about!

Oh, and can you leave the North East out of this argument amongst you Midlanders! :ok:

[GrahamK]

I was about to say there already is a fit for purpose airport in the north east...Newcastle.

[eggc]

Leeds Approach

Hmmm, no stats from you there to back up your claim.

Google "Infrastructure spending by region" and you'll quickly see where my stats come from, which are the latest available and from official sources (2013).

It must be very frustrating being you, advocating, and arguing for, something that will just never happen.

[Andy_S]

Somebody has used private funding to buy the airport.

To buy it, yes. But where will the funding come from to develop it to the extent you envisage?

Yorkshire and the Humber inhabitants (and North Eastern inhabitants in general) will not put with being 2nd class citizens in aviation terms any longer.

Once again, you speak very presumptuously. Obviously the idea of a major international airport for Yorkshire is a big deal for you, but I see no evidence that the population of Yorkshire and the North East in general are particularly bothered. And how can you say you are second class citizens "in aviation terms" when you have so many airports (including one with intercontinental routes) within a few hours travelling time? There are many people in this country far more poorly served in that respect.

A correctly positioned and connected airport at the expense of two failing airports....

LBA a failing airport?? Pull the other one..... Constrained, maybe. Less than ideal, maybe. But failing? Again, there are people in other parts of the country that would be happy to have a "failure" like LBA serving their aviation needs.

....clearly a more than viable project and that is why it has begun.

As has already been mentioned, the owners of Church Fenton are likely to have far more modest ambitions for the place than you do.

[rpmac]

Well said Andy. Hope this is the end of Church Fenton in the LEEDS thread.

[Fairdealfrank]

It's not really a 'trap' my friend it is a recognised process using population area catchment study. The methodology is done for potential airports worldwide. It identifies the exact amount of people within certain differing travel times of exact spots on the globe's surface. I'm glad you are now aware that an airport has just been opened at Leeds East airport.

The county of Yorkshire is not the catchment in this case.


You don't half come out with some nonsense! Comparing an airport 7 miles away from the worlds 3rd busiest stuck in the middle of urban London to what is required in Yorkshire to replace its far from ideal airports. 'Life simply isn't like that' lol. You really should stick to gazing at the planes on the flightpath where you live.


Indeed, of course it is nonsense, that is the point, but no more nonsense (your word) than your plans for Church Fenton. In fact my "nonsense" analogy illustrates it very well.

BTW fatuous personal comments mean that the argument is lost. Tantrum next?


It is like trying to explain trigonometry to someone who fails to grasp basic maths.


#Oh very good! Do love a comedian.


Oh, and can you leave the North East out of this argument amongst you Midlanders!


#Ha ha, love it, the Midlands is the area between the Thames and the Tees!!

[SWBKCB]

#Ha ha, love it, the Midlands is the area between the Thames and the Tees!!

No, No - "the South" starts just below Birmingham, not at the Thames. :=

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Is LBA the only airport in Britain who has a website that includes destinations available only by flying via other airports?? Hawaii, Calgary, Dubai etc and even Copenhagen. It's a bit embarrassing really.

I see the lba masterplan has been delayed again apparently they are coordinating the plans with the local authority. Is this the local authority that stated that Leeds and Yorkshire may need an airport in a different location (white rose international) if the region was not to miss out in future years? Might perhaps explain why nothing has been built for a while?

[pug]

No, you can fly to these places from LBA. They are marketing it as such because many people will not think of using BA or KLM and instead drive to MAN or LHR for direct long haul. How it's embarrassing is beyond me...?

It is pretty clear there is only one airport in the north capable of offering the critical mass of passengers for viable links to long haul destinations. This one airport for Yorkshire thing died when the Ferrybridge proposal was ignored in the 60's..

[SWBKCB]

Is LBA the only airport in Britain who has a website that includes destinations available only by flying via other airports??

I bet every regional airport website does this - they'd be barmy not to e.g. NCL's website currently advertises United to New York and all it's American destinations (Vegas, Florida, etc) and Emirates and its "connections to the world". The DTVA website says "It’s a small world - Go global in under 80 minutes with our three daily connections to Amsterdam"

Embarrassing? Don't think you understand how regional airports work.

[Balair]

EMA goes further than that. On their joke of a website they advertise "Onward connections with Air France" "Fly from East Midlands to Paris and connect to worldwide destinations"
Can anyone spot the slight problem there.......?

It also proudly states that Summer 2014 holidays are now on sale - so if you are quick you might be able to snap up a bargain!

Balair

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Are Flybe offering holiday flights from LBA in Summer 2016?

[cornishsimon]

Flybe haven't even releases winter 15/16 schedules so summer 16 is waaaayyyy off


cs

[NewquayJacob]

Not if they are getting rid of the E195s as planned - aren't most holiday destinations already covered anyway?

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Here we are in early May and Leeds Bradford Airport (681 ft above sea level) is 200 metres in low cloud. Diversions are happening. Holding is taking place. Aviation fuel is being burnt. Knock on delays will now happen costing airlines lots of money. Passengers are missing meetings and connections. Passengers holidays are being eroded. Every month this year diversions have taken place.

So when will Air India be bringing their new dream liners in to an area where there is a lack of Indian businesses (that's what the meeting is about) and people? To an airport with a short, restricted runway, pointing in the wrong direction on a bumpy, pushed for space hill top? Where in 7 years no extra parking stands have been constructed. No wonder it's a 'medium' term plan.

The spotters/enthusiasts in the Yeadon region need to get a grip. If you want to help Yorkshire and the Leeds City region "there might be a better location"! & I don't mean in the Lincolnshire wolds. It's time you started backing the right horse.

18 miles away, sat on two of the country's busiest rail routes the visibility is 10km or more.

[slatgrille]

Misty morning - Shuttle 20A after a long time in the hold at FL80 with RVR around 300m for Rwy14, diverts back to LHR. Within 10 minutes or so of it heading south, the RVR lifts to around 1,000m. There must be a reason for LHR being used as a distant alternate, when there are BA Shuttle ops into MCR. Must be very frustrating for those passengers trying to get to Leeds...

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Misty morning - Shuttle 20A after a long time in the hold at FL80 with RVR around 300m for Rwy14, diverts back to LHR. Within 10 minutes or so of it heading south, the RVR lifts to around 1,000m. There must be a reason for LHR being used as a distant alternate, when there are BA Shuttle ops into MCR. Must be very frustrating for those passengers trying to get to Leeds...

It's not mist. It's not even fog (by the precise definition of the many types). It is cloud.

Leeds Bradford Airport is quite literally in the clouds. When you build an airport 681 feet above mean sea level this is what very frequently happens (even as we approach Summer).

The first commercial flight to anywhere from Leeds East Airport - I'll be on it! The 5 or 6 million inhabitants of Yorkshire will never look back.

[snowman 1]

you will have to live a long long time for that
sm1

[slatgrille]

Yes, Cloud. Fog, mist, pea soup notwithstanding, I was just making the point that as an alternate for Leeds, going back to Heathrow is frustrating. Bit more than a bus-ride away. Then we see that the next scheduled Shuttle today is already cancelled as well.

[Andy_S]

The 5 or 6 million inhabitants of Yorkshire will never look back.

Indeed. They'll look West.......:E

[N707ZS]

Thought they faced East, a few times a day.

[anothertyke]

Never mind, there's a new electronic billboard on the old Yorkshire Post building --- Manchester Airport, your window to the world, over 200 destinations.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

Never mind, there's a new electronic billboard on the old Yorkshire Post building --- Manchester Airport, your window to the world, over 200 destinations.

Perhaps they realise the game is up? White Rose International will change the face of Northern civil aviation and be a fit for purpose airport that all true tykes can be proud of. Spotters at Yeadon will have to get on the train - it's only half an hour away so don't worry.

[paully]

Oh God, here we go again...change the record :ugh:

[LEEDS APPROACH]

You've travelled hours from San Francisco (or Beijing) made a connection in England's famous capital and begun your flight to England's biggest and one of its most well known counties. It's May and you have looked forward to your brief visit for months.

You hold in the air above Leeds Bradford Airport and then have to divert back to London two hours after you set off. Exhausted now. Is this passenger encouraged to visit Yorkshire again?

Not a very good advert for Yorkshire. It is simply not good enough and in real terms there is absolutely no reason for it. I wont shut up about it until something is done about it. This is my right as a citizen of England and Yorkshire. Perhaps I care more about West Yorkshire than you do Paul? Civil aviation in Yorkshire is the joke of Europe.

[LBIA]

Well if Leeds/Bradford Airport's partnership with Middlesbrough FC wasn't bad enough for Peel Airports, It's now gone one step further and become the official Airport partner for Sheffield Wednesday FC.

Owls fly with Leeds Bradford Airport partnership (http://www.swfc.co.uk/news/article/owls-fly-with-leeds-bradford-airport-partnership-2442466.aspx#KwQJ3wr3hz25Hgeo.99)

[SWBKCB]

This is my right as a citizen of England and Yorkshire.

Seriously... :eek:

[pug]

I'd be interested to know just how many foreign originating tourists use LBA as a gateway to Yorkshire..?

I would have thought most international tourists (particularly those travelling long haul) would fly into London and use that as a base for surface access to the rest of the country..?

[snowman 1]

leeds approach
why don't you ask the owner of church-fenton if he intends to spend millions of pounds on c/f to bring it up the standard required for a licence, then at least you could stop bleating on about it if the answer is no.
sm1

[LEEDS APPROACH]

I find it a little sad when posters lurk waiting for someone else's aviation comment only to make comment on that comment without talking about aviation. Counter argument - yes but please refrain from the disparaging remarks with cartoons. It's just very spotterish.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

leeds approach
why don't you ask the owner of church-fenton if he intends to spend millions of pounds on c/f to bring it up the standard required for a licence, then at least you could stop bleating on about it if the answer is no.
sm1

I've been told that if I don't shut up I might be stuck with Yeadon on the hill so I'm going to calm my enthusiasm/bleating. I would suggest you google certain things though and read between the lines. #WhiteRoseInternational -an airport for the whole North East.

[HOODED]

Leeds Approach. Please if you are going to start banging your drum again, would you be kind enough to do it on the Church Fenton thread you created. Leave the Leeds thread for discussing happenings at LBA. You have made your veiws clear on this thread already. Those that wish to debate Leeds East becoming the new Yorkshire international can have their discussions on your new thread. I may even read it from time to time. I hope your dreams for CF come true but for now we have an airport in Leeds that seems to operate ok despite all its insurmountable problems.

[compton3bravo]

Practically all the Americans I have had the pleasure of meeting would always arrive at Heathrow and use onward road or rail transport from there and doubt very much if they use internal air transport. Where is Manchester I was asked a number of times when the aircraft we were on diverted there because of bad weather in the London area. Where is Leeds - I think most Americans would think Leeds was something attached to a plug!
P.S. I am a Yorkshireman.