LEEDS 5

[exrotarybooty]

Thanks for all your help, outstanding! :ok:

ERB

[LBIA]

Hi

Dose anyone know how many aircraft will be night stopping at Leeds/Bradford this coming summer 09 season?

What with the all the Jet2 aircraft needed and possibility of an extra bmi regional, Embrear will they be enough or are they going to be short of stands.

[Shiver me timbers!]

LBA - MAN (http://web.ana-aviation.com/BY_schedule.nsf/9c0a7533833051ae8025698a00496521/c673345a8ed036608025751c003e43f6%21OpenDocument)FRI 09:50AM 10:25AM FRI 763 9000 TOM535 ad-hoc 1 03/06/2009 03/06/2009

35 minutes from LBA to MAN? I could drive there in 60 minutes on a good day!! I didn't think 767s could float at 100kts?! :}

[dmdrewitt]

That is block time.

Brakes off to brakes on. (This time includes the pushback, engine start, taxi out, flight time, then any holding on way into MAN, taxi in to stand at MAN).

[Flightwatch]

You are getting confused by the difference between block time and airborne time. Airline schedules are block time i.e. time from start of push back or taxy to time on chocks at destination. The ground time - that between push and take-off and landing to chocks on is known as ground time and varies, often by known ground times at the relevant airfields and time of day (rush hour or not). Hence a LBA-LHR flight has a scheduled time of ca. 1 hour, say 10 minutes ground time at LBA and 15 mins at LHR but a flight time of 35 minutes.

In the case of LBA-MAN the ground time would be in the region of 20 mins and flight time 15 mins (can you do that in your car?).

If LBA-BGI were possible the ground time would still be about 20 mins giving a flight time of 8.40.



beaten to it by 7 mins!

[Shiver me timbers!]

Thanks - i thought it was that but had a sudden bout of sarcasm. Cheers for confirming though - Its all interesting stuff!!
:}

[LBIA]

Hi

Just been playing around with Thomas Cook website and I have just noticed that they have added a 2nd based unit on Sundays & Mondays for the summer

They have added a new route to Monastir in Tunisia on a Sundays all summer and the dropped Reus route is back and is showing to be operated on a Monday again from August to September only

Sunday May to October
Departs Leeds/Bradford 08:35 - Arrives Monastir 12:55
Departs Monastir 13:55 - Arrives Leeds/Bradford 16:15
Monday August Only
Departs Leeds/Bradford 10:50 - Arrives Reus 14:10
Departs Reus 15:10 - Arrives Leeds/Bradford 16:30

[pploony]

Just to revive the Leeds section,does anyone know how the runway 'repair' works are progressing,presume the surface will be less teeth rattling as a result.I remember hearing one US bizjet pilot commenting to ATC after landing that 'that was like landing in Russia!'(I've not landed there,are their runways THAT bad?
Also who knows how PIA are doing on the passenger numbers? I hear they are to add another flight in the near future.
Does anyone have a link to the CAA passenger stats page for UK airports?

[SASfox]

LBIA, The flight times for the MIR are almost the same as the AGP flight. If you look at TC webpage the AGP flights are now flying with Jet2 instead of TCX.

[LBIA]

Cheers for clearing that one up for us SASFox.

As you mentioned the Malaga service is to be operated by the scheduled Jet2.com Sunday morning service while the based TCX, Airbus 320 goes down to Monastir instead now as you quite rightly mentioned.

The Monday Reus service only runs for about 6 weeks during the summer school holidays in August and September. By all accounts its a load share with a Glasgow based TCX, Boeing 757-200, operating GLA-LBA-REU-LBA-GLA.

[RAFAT]

I've not landed there, are their runways THAT bad?

Yes pploony, LBA's runway is really THAT bad! Whilst it was fine when smaller aircraft such as BRAL's Jetstreams and Jersey European's F27s & DHC8s were the main visitors, it just couldn't cope when the bigger stuff increased their presence, the repairs (where they'd bothered to do them!) looked like a patchwork quilt!

[pploony]

I meant I've not landed in Russia,I know Leeds is rough,I did my training there.My dental bills are still coming in!

[RAFAT]

Oh I see! :}

[POL1W]

As expected PIA will increase flights from Leeds to Islamabad on 30 March, from 2 weekly to 3 weekly, with an extra A310 on a Mondays.

[lbalad]

I see the departures board on the lbia website shows tomorrows 1st flight to SSH as LS209 to (blank).

Can't whoever types the info spell Sharm el Sheikh or what?.

I hope they manage to put it on the check in screens!.:ugh:

[Setel Up]

It seems that LBA has become a victim of MOL's wrangling with the Irish bodies over a planned tourist tax.

LBA-DUB retains the winter schedule in general, with the expected lunchtime rotation being canned. It's a pity the late night flight can't be replaced with a more tolerable early evening rotation. Looking around, the MAN-DUB is down from four to three daily, and it appears that DSA, MME, and NCL to DUB have also been reduced.

Good news on the extra Monday PIA flight.:D

Setel Up

[lbalad]

I see the first SSH flight got away more or less on time this morning.

Anybody a clue how many pax on it this am?.

[airhumberside]

bmi trade website shows CPH suspended from 28th February

[Aircrew101]

There is a very big ? over the LHR route out of LBA and MME aswell. Mainline have only put out a two week roster while they think about what to do.

[LBA_flyer]

LBA-CPH will be suspended from the 2nd March till the end of the summer season at least.

[lbalad]

Tomorrow morning a departure you don't see very often;

Newquay/Miami?.Is this for real?

[idlejack]

Looks like a cruise flight (probably Fred Olsen) shared with Newquay

[aeulad]

LHR is going.

Let's hope the airport can get LS or BE to Gatwick.

Regards

Mike

[johnrizzo2000]

If LHR is really going, wonder would LBA look to EZY or EI at LGW? EI have plans for 8 a/c within 12 months, so perfect for LBA to try and lure a new carrier and secure a London route:ok:

[davidjohnson6]

Apologies if this has been discussed many eons ago, but could someone explain the rationale for LBA trying to get flyBE to operate flights to Gatwick ?

The train from central Leeds to King's Cross takes about 2h 20m, runs every 30 mins on weekdays, and one-way advance tickets available from under £13. The train even has WiFi. Furthermore, while one could maybe make a case for flights to Heathrow offering connections as it's a Star Alliance pseudo-hub, this doesn't apply at Gatwick.

Perhaps there's a case for a twice daily small regional jet to LCY, or (when a 3rd runway opens) BA to Heathrow as a feeder, but I guess I'm struggling to see what would motivate any airline to open a route to LGW, LHR, STN or LTN at the moment.

Anyone care to point out what I'm overlooking ?

[backtrack_32]

"LHR is going."

Can i ask how you know this?

[SWBKCB]

"LHR is going."

Can i ask how you know this?

Being reported in the FT - see BMI thread, no doubt detail/response to emerge during the day.

[Yellow Sun]

The train from central Leeds to King's Cross takes about 2h 20m, runs every 30 mins on weekdays, and one-way advance tickets available from under £13.

I started operating the LBA-LHR when it was on the DC9. I said then that it was only the inefficency of the railways that allowed us to do so successfully. I doubted that we would operate the route for more than another 10 years. Well, it has taken the railway operators a bit longer than I thought, but 20 years on then inevitable has happened.

YS

[rcalvert]

Here's the Diamond Club email I got today if anyone's interested.

I used this service regularly when it was on Scarebuses and it was usually very busy :ugh:

Dear xxx
We are sorry to let you know that unfortunately we are ending our Heathrow-Leeds Bradford service on 28 March 2009.
The decision to withdraw services between London and the North of England was a tough one, as we've operated these routes since 1969. However a decline in demand, higher-than-inflation cost increases at Heathrow and higher Government Air Passenger Duty (APD) charges have made operating these routes unsustainable.
If you have a booking on one of the affected services, we will, where possible, reaccommodate you on other bmi services. We will contact you in the next few weeks to discuss your options.
We are also making the following changes to our summer 2009 flying:
Increasing our Heathrow-Beirut and Amman services to ten per week from 22 May 2009
Reducing our Heathrow-Addis Ababa service to three per week, now being served over Amman, instead of Damascus from 29 March 2009
Decreasing the frequency of our Heathrow-Amsterdam (http://bmi-news.com/c/p?EMID=099023C0KHL820KGA7HC99501O9HHJ2) service to four per day and Heathrow-Dublin (http://bmi-news.com/c/p?EMID=099023C0KHL820KGA7HC99501O9HHJ2) to six per day from 29 March 2009
Operating our Heathrow-Aberdeen service on all Embraer aircraft from 29 March 2009 and Heathrow-Brussels on all Embraer aircraft from 18 April 2009
Closing our Heathrow-Durham Tees Valley service on 28 March 2009We'd like to thank you for your loyalty and support of our Heathrow-Leeds Bradford service and apologise for any inconvenience.
Regards
http://www.flybmi.com/Images.Net/emails/2008/flybmi/en-gb/20081104/keeley-signature.jpg Keeley Downing Diamond Club Manage

[uncomfortable]

I think the rationale for a LGW service is that if your destination is South London, once you have got to King's Cross, your adventure has just begun...
But I may be wrong.

[flybar]

Leeds Bradford International Airport (LBIA) has today confirmed that bmi mainline is to cease operating the London Heathrow service from 28 March 2009. bmi carried 62,000 departing passengers on their 4 times daily service in 2008 and had in recent months reduced capacity on the route in response to current market conditions.

John Parkin, Chief Executive of Leeds Bradford International Airport commented, “This announcement by bmi mainline is of course disappointing news. We are well aware of the importance to our region of regular air links to London and we expect to be in a position to announce new services to the capital shortly.”

John Parkin continues “Today’s announcement by bmi mainline does not affect the bmi regional base at Leeds Bradford which currently offers 46 flights a week to Brussels, Glasgow and Edinburgh. Plans to expand bmi regional with new routes from LBIA are well advanced and continuing.”



I wonder who they have lurking in the wings to take over!

[Jamesair]

Whoever it is, I doubt it will be to LHR...more likely GTW (Jet2) (Flybe)

[davidjohnson6]

I think the rationale for a LGW service is that if your destination is South London, once you have got to King's Cross, your adventure has just begun...Us who lives in Sarf Lahnden is not all a bunch of hoodies and peeple wiv shotguns who robs post offices !

Some of us are quite posh, living in Peckham with our three-wheeler Reliant Robins

[MME4eva]

At least LBA have already lined up replacements, reading between the lines from the MME press release, the powers that be are hoping bmi will one day come back and don't appear to have a plan b at all!

My bet is that LBA will get a flyBE service to LGW to complement their routes to SOU, EXT and BHD whereas we at MME will get zilch!

[Strelnikov]

I think the rationale for a LGW service is that if your destination is South London, once you have got to King's Cross, your adventure has just begun...

Is true. I live in South London and often make the journey to Leeds often by air, rail and driving. I used to fly from Gatwick when the service existed and ditto Docklands but I tried to avoid Heathrow which is a ghastly place to get to.

South London and the Gatwick hinterland must have a catchment way in excess of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Bristol and they seem to be successful enough.

Now Heathrow is pulled Gatwick and Docklands may well be viable now.

[flybar]

My bet is that LBA will get a flyBE service to LGW to complement their routes to SOU, EXT and BHD whereas we at MME will get zilch!

Or simply change the current Flybe service from Newcastle to the Capital to NCL-LBA-LGW

[kingdee]

is on them announcing a FRA service to compete with KLM !!:8

[BYALPHAINDIA]

It's maybe sad but I'm not at all surprised that the LHR will finish.

The fares have never been able to compete with GNER or National Express.

I often wanted to fly down to 'The Row' but I was not prepared to pay the fares British Midland were charging, Even to fly one-way was around
72.00 +

Many 'Moons Ago' I was involved with an Aviation Society at LBA, Our chairman approached British Midland and asked if we could organise a saturday day trip to LHR a 'Spotters special' and get an 'Affordable' price for a group booking.

BD did not show any interest, Nor offer any kind of group booking discount for upto 80 of our members.

What made us 'Laugh' was that the 7.00 am LBA - LHR (DC9) service was not even half-full on an average saturday morning.

BD could have easily 'Accomodated' us in those empty seats!!

But that's the attitude (Or was) the attitude at BD!!

Will I miss the service = NO.

The chances of LHR returning = Not a chance.

LGW could be an option for Jet 2 or Flybe?

[L-Band]

No No not Jet 2 on the LHR route this is getting rather boring,:bored: get VLM or somebody else, need some competition from LBA!!!

L

[runway west]

Was it Norwegian franchise Sun-express?? :confused:

[runway west]

Btw I've posted a few nostalgic pics from lba here.....

Flickr: mds810's Photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/35649953@N08/)

Many thanks in advance if you have time to view them :ok:

[Cyrano]

Was it Norwegian franchise Sun-express??
You mean Danish franchisee Sun-Air? On a UK domestic? No, assuredly not.

[Flightrider]

CityFlyer did lease a Sun-Air of Scandinavia J41 to operate Leeds-Gatwick for about two months before they pulled off the route (1998, I think). When BRAL restarted the route some time later (around 2002-3) then they operated it with a J41 as well. So yes, you could have seen two different J41 operators on the route at different times.

[EGCN Doncaster]

I hope Flybe send an ERJ195 down to LBA to do the LGW route!, Also I hope they still maintain Services 4 times a day still.

[pwalhx]

Hope, thats the best people can expect nowadays

[dh dragon]

Anybody remember Genair flying Shorts 330,s ? I flew with them on a day trip in the 70,s.I also remember BEA/BA flying Viscounts on the LBA-LHR service in the 60,s

[galaxy68]

the sixties were BKS days, it may be hard to believe but the Heathrow service was almost hourly, with 12 or more on weekdays!
We had Metropolitan, Genair and Capital operating sheds on the Gatwick. In fact Genair routed MME-LBA-LGW for some of the time. My recollection was that the services were well supported, so well so that weight and hold restrictions often became a problem.
As with Heathrow, most pax were interliners, my guess would be 90% minimum. So competition, wasnt with the railways as previous posters have suggested, as pax were using the service for onward travel around the globe. The main problem for the operators was not the lack of pax, but low revenues, because they only got a small share of the through fare to Timbuktu etc.
It seems strange that as BMI has greatly expanded their Heathrow services in recent years, (ie they can now feed more pax from LBA onto their onward flights), they decide to stop the service. However two things have operated to the detriment of the service. Firstly, the astounding growth at that airstrip on the wrong side of the Pennines whose name escapes me, (although you do seem to pay a premium to fly from there--as opposed to LHR/LGW). And secondly, there has even been some growth at LBA, making it easier to get around Europe and interline at more places.
But the demise of the CPH service is doubly bad news, (it had few pax in the Air UK days). I remember using the Brown Air Gulfstream 1 to FRA via HUYie, (also not well supported then), but hopefully, as suggested earlier, this may be a new destination for BM. It may seem to be logical, to their main hub, but why start another feeder service, having just dropped one to a major hub, in this economic climate and with slots hard to come by.... I wouldnt bank on it at all!

[rpmac]

I remember the BKS days and HS748´s departing for Heathrow, Amsterdam and Belfast but never hourly to Heathrow, though I recall a press release stating how successful the route was and the hope then was for an hourly service! On one occasion and only my second flight ever at that point I booked a return to Heathrow for 6 GBP´s as I was under 21. To my delight it turned out to be a Viscount on lease from Channel Airways.
On another trip back from London the flight almost landed at Yeadon, but due to severe crosswinds we aborted landing and headed for Manchester!
My earliest recollections were Dakotas heading out over Guiseley for London so the Leeds London route has some history so sad to see it apparently ending. Hopefully a Flybe service to Gatwick might start.

[Leofric]

The BKS days at LBA were good, but never 12 a day to LHR, unless you are doing the Ryanair trick of counting the inbound and outbound - there might have been 6 return flights at some stage but most of the time it was 4 or 5.
The memory of BEA Viscounts was that BKS used them for a couple of rotations a day for perhaps a year before they got their own Viscounts. The Heathrow based BEA pilots were very wary of flying into Leeds and diverted if there was anything approaching low cloud or a cross wind

[paully]

Remember BKS and their Viscounts very well....first flew on one from LHR to Leeds in late 1967 whilst the present terminal was under construction...(only a nipper then:ooh:) They were replace on the run by Northeast who I used in 1972 when, again due to weather fog i think, we divereted to Teeside (as it was then called) and bussed down to LBA......Ah happy days eh:*

[fl dutchman]

BKS were not replaced by Northeast. BKS "became" Northeast airlines ( a part of British Air Services later to be swallowed up by BEA). Cant remember the LHR frequency though, although I think it was quite regular. Good times.

[davidjohnson6]

As with Heathrow, most pax were interliners, my guess would be 90% minimum. So competition, wasnt with the railways as previous posters have suggested, as pax were using the service for onward travel around the globe.

galaxy68 - I can certainly believe that a substantial part of the traffic from Leeds to Heathrow would have been onward connections. A figure of 90% seems a little high, but in the absence of any figures of my own, I can't claim otherwise.

However...
A single slot pair has in recent years become worth a very large sum of money. An airline always has the option to sell the slot to another airline and just put the money it gets on deposit in the bank, so we can consider the value of the slot pair as a sort of investment - not dissimiliar to owning outright a brand new 737 (i.e. no interest or lease payments involved).

An airline can choose to use that LHR slot pair on a low yielding route, but may well believe it can get a much higher return on the value of its LHR slot by flying a different route instead. bmi is thus choosing between a LHR-LBA route or a LHR-KBP route which would probably bring in much more profit per slot.

Yes, Leeds, Durham, Belfast, Liverpool, Inverness, and plenty of other places in the UK regions need and deserve to get direct connections to LHR for the good of the country's economy, but for this to be economically worthwhile to airlines, LHR needs a drastic increase in capacity, which means a 3rd runway. Further, unless bmi merge with Virgin, the only carrier for whom flights from LHR to the regions would be sufficiently profitable is probably BA.

[rpmac]

davidjohnson6.... I totally agree ----- many regions are without air connections to Britains premier international airport, Heathrow and this is not good for these regions and for Britains economy. It is a great pity that some slots used by BA and BMi from the likes of Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester could not be reduced so that Liverpool, Leeds, Inverness and Durham which are sufficiently distant from Heathrow could have at least a double daily link. The code share with BA for LBA flights seemed a step in the right direction and possibly a take over by BA in the future. But now..what next?

[Mooncrest]

I always thought that if LBA lost the Heathrow service it would be for good. Sadly I expect this will be the case, unless BA do a remarkable about-turn and resume the route after a twenty-nine year absence. Fat chance but we can dream.

I would guess a "new" Gatwick route would the least unlikely outcome for a link to the capital. The loss of the Heathrow flights means the country's second financial centre would have no air link to London which for many folk is an unthinkable scenario.

Three, possibly four, rotations to Gatwick on weekdays with perhaps a couple on weekends may be the best we can hope for. Given there will be no competition to London as a whole, it could even work. As for the operator, my money would be on Flybe with a Q400, but an easyjet A319 would be nice. Might get up PM's nose though. Time will tell.

[galaxy68]

I used to have old timetables etc, but gave them away to an enthusiast. However a websearch on BKS, revealed an informative site that quotes up tp 14 per day. I do remember they offered extra flights on Mondays and Fridays. Another route that amazed me was the number of flights on the summer Channel Islands run, but I cannot remember the actual figures (BUA Heralds?, pre BUIA and then BIA). People went there before Spain really got going. Also BKS used to run Viscounts on overnight flights to Alicante and Palma, departing around 2130. Wow!

[davidjohnson6]

galaxy68 - you mentioned a time when there were 14 rotations to LHR per day from LBA. Would you be kind enough to tell us which year, or even better provide a weblink to this information ?

It may be coincidence, but around 1980, British Rail introduced new express trains between King's Cross and Leeds which cut about 30 mins off the journey time.

[Strelnikov]

14 rotations a day! Surely not unless that includes LGW.

I recollect ten rotations but never more than that.

LBA-LHR has been killed because:

1) The primary reason - the slot value is of greater profitable use to BMI elsewhere.

2) Getting to Heathrow for domestic trips is only for those seeking purgatory.

3) Ditto LBA.

4) Rail finally got its act together and competes very well with air on price, speed, comfort and Wi-Fi access.

5) Competition for interlining from Manchester (direct) and Amsterdam, Paris (indirect).

A silver lining for domestic journey makers would be the restoration of either LCY and LGW that now become more attractive without an LHR route.

[rpmac]

LHR -LBA
The domestic traffic for a day trip to London (or Leeds) is not the main reason for concern. The value of a Heathrow link is for international originating passengers. For instance a business person wishing to visit say Leeds or York checks the nearest airport with a connection to that city. Therefore the Heathrow connection is important for business and the general economics of the area. For domestic traffic Gatwick provides links into London, but also the south east. For LBA a direct link to JFK would be ideal but in the recession this may be some time off now.

[682ft AMSL]

Consider this....

The relationship between LBA and MAN and LPL and MAN is quite different. Analysis of the peak month in 2008, shows that 75% of LBA's passengers were carried on routes where the airline / tour operator also offered capacity ex-MAN. Just 7% of LBA's traffic was on routes not available from MAN in any capacity.

By contrast, 75% of LPL's passengers were carried on routes where the airline WASN'T offering capacity to the same destination ex-MAN and 33% of their passengers were on routes not available from MAN at all.

In short, the macro view is that there is generally appetite to compliment services between LBA and MAN. A further insight is that the ratio of LBA scheduled passenger volumes to MAN volumes on routes offered from both airports is about 1:3 - i.e. a route handling 60,000 passengers a month ex-MAN generates 20,000 ex-LBA.

So, how is all of this relevant to the 'London' debate? Well, as pointed out by many, the bmi route was primarily used by connecting traffic, with c.70% of passengers connecting at LHR. It's demise leaves KLM's service into AMS as the only genuine interlining service remaining from the airport and in its current form that delivers about 10,000 passengers a month connecting through AMS. In comparison, MAN handles about 250,000 passengers a month that are connecting through the various hubs it serves.

Using the 1:3 rule a credible case could be argued therefore that there is a market for connecting traffic to/from LBA of about 80,000 a month - somewhat higher that than 10,000 on offer by KLM. Not unrealistic given that when SN were on the LBA-BRU route and LHR was 5 x daily F100s, the total connecting market was 35,000 a month. That was in 2000 and the air market in the North is now about a third bigger.

So given the sizeable opportunity and the complimentary nature of the MAN /LBA markets, where is it going wrong? In short, it is the location of the hubs. They exist in either congested European centres like LHR, CDG or FRA where slots are difficult or in faraway places in the US or the Middle East . In some cases they are just as congested as Europe but in all cases they present restrictions on which aircraft can offer direct services from LBA.

In summary, it is hard to argue against the fact there is something to get after at LBA regarding the connecting market - a prize which is big enough that the existence or otherwise of the LHR service is only partly relevant. The LBA management team do have experience of overcoming all of the challenges of slot restrictions and short runways as a quick scan down the BRS and NCL departure boards reveals and they already have a feather in their cap at LBA regarding PIA, so who knows........

[pug]

682ft AMSL, an excellent post there.

I seem to remember a poster some time ago, cannot find it now though so sorry for pinching the info, suggesting that something like 85,000 passengers fly to New York ex Yorkshire (or West Yorkshire) and i think that was from MAN. The problem was that of those only a relatively modest percentage were business/ higher fare paying pax. I am aware that freight is important to these longer-haul services for yields unless i can be corrected.

I believe therefore that there is certainly a market from an NY service, though it is not as clear as the PIA services, an that LBA is the only airport in Yorkshire likely to achieve such a route. Perhaps a service to Dubai also?

[Facelookbovvered]

I think you also have to factor in the anti LHR stance that many user's of LHR have. T5 now works well but the rest is a nightmare, two hours for luggage means you can't risk a short connection add to that bmi couldnt/wouldn't transfer luggage

LBA best hope is if and when R3 gets built

[veetwo]

As a Gatwick based easyjet pilot whose entire family live in Leeds I am, albeit selfishly, rather pleased that we may be about to see a stable LBA-LGW service. Lets hope its on a 319 and I can get my staff travel! I wonder if other people will potentially find LGW more convenient that LHR? Surely in terms of travel time to central London it must be neck and neck between the Central Line and the Gatwick express.

I do agree however that it is sad to see BMI go after all these years - I've used that service more than a few times!

V2

[14 loop]

As a user of the LHR-LBA run on and off since c1995, my observation was that there were frequently members of Cabin and Flight Deck crew of BA / bmi or Virgin commuting 'home' to the Leeds area. I bet these individuals will be upset by the loss of the route.

[galaxy68]

Strelnikov, heres the link BKS Air Transport Ltd (http://website.lineone.net/~biggles200/)

The peak services were sometime during the mid 60s. Personally I think the 14 may have been only on one-off occasions, but 10-12 per day was regular and scheduled.
Some interesting posts here guys.
My knowledge of the shed years (360s) to LGW was that the very few non interliners were not heading for London. Most caught the train to Brighton or other south coast towns, nearby Crawley and a few to Croydon in south London. But this is what you would expect, if you want central London then take the train. Journey times were sometimes long, especially the morning outbound which usually had to hold for ages.

I remember posting that the Wardair lumps were nigh on full, 457pax plus freight, direct to YYZ during their first season, so 20 years later surely the demand is there. I have often thought that most European capitals/major cities should be able to support services, though a 737 would be too big.

One major hurdle, is LBAs second mover status. Manchester has always been ahead of the game in its provision, whereas LBA has always been way behind the curve. They built an inadequate 5000 foot in the 60s that couldnt accept many prop a/c let alone jets! Then it took over 20 years to extend and it still cant accept many jets, nor can the terminal. Rwy 28 had to be closed due to inadequate parking provision, etc etc Pathetic!Previous management have alot to answer for.

[Strelnikov]

galaxy 68 - thats a link to BKS Air Transport - I assume you mean the information supporting davidjohnson6' request is buried somewhere within it.

Whilst I'm sure it's riveting material you'll have to point us to the amazing timetable with 14 rotations. I don't doubt it is there but I haven't got the spare day to search for it :}.

Incidentally I believe it is previous politicians to blame rather than management. The airport is built in its ludicrous (and therefore interesting) location due to Bradford not being happy with a new airport east of Leeds in an eminently more sensible place.

That is anathema to all on here of course but had this been done in the 1960s, sat on the ECML and XC rail routes, it might have been a rival to MAN with heavy metal travelling long haul from Yorkshire.

[BKS Air Transport]

I hope a replacement, at least to Gatwick is forthcoming. This would give some scope for interlining, and also give a service to south London and the Kent/Sussex area. The SOU service seems to do well. There would seem to be several airlines who might be able to do this. Could I suggest:

1) FlyBe...already ops at LBA and LGW, right size aircraft, fit their business model;

2) ASW...as above, though outside their traditional territory. Are they not about to get their fingers burnt on LGW-NQY, though?

3) LS...but possibly too big an aircraft but could be ok for x2 daily.

However, BRS, EMA and BHX seem to do fine without, as far as I know, any London link at all. We would seem to be on the periphary of the viability of London flights.

[Cloud1]

Flybe will not consider LBA-LGW, they are in the process of route expansion and this is not on their wish list.

I think you would be better placed with Jet2, even if it is with a B733.

[harrogate]

On a slight tangent, I think a 'modest' and well timed service to the capital would still be viable.

National Express have been making a phenomenal pigs ear of the train service since they took over from GNER (who rather hastily gave the franchise up, remember - and then regretted it massively).

I used to think these inter-city train operators were all much of a muchness, but National Express are truly, truly awful. Terrible service, terrible cleanliness, terrible catering - I see so, so many pissed off people on the London trains from Leeds these days. It really is a horrible experience, and I'm not particularly fussy. The decline since GNER gave up the franchise has been striking.

But then I hear National Express have already been stripped of the franchise and it looks likely that Virgin will get it. Think what you like about Virgin companies, but Virgin Trains have got to be better than the current shower of ****. I've been on Virgin Trains a few times and it's always been fine - far better than National Express.

I know my lady's colleagues at the DoH (and the DWP for that matter) would gladly utilise a London air service if it was cost effective enough for them to justify. The onward European connections were especially handy for them prior to the budget cutbacks which prevented them from using the plane in most cases.

Just a thought.

I'd rather take the Megabus than the train these days. And I really mean that.

[johnnychips]

And have you?

[Flightwatch]

I flew for BKS from 1966 to 1970 on the 748 and Viscount. The normal weekday rotations were 5 - the thought of 14 is incredible - at it's height the Manchester shuttle had 10 or 11 front line services daily! (I was based there on the 1-11 from '70 onwards.) I suspect that the truth is that the total BKS operation from Yeadon was around fourteen rotations a day.

In winter 1966 it was an all 748 operation (Viscounts had been leased in for some services the previous summer). Over the next seasons the Viscounts were phased in, initially the 61 seat 700D series and eventually it moved in 1970 to an all 806x operation with 71 seats a time. This made 355 seats a day in each direction so considerably more than the 200 currently on offer but a lot less than when the A319 was on the route.

When I started BKS also served LHR-MME but that stopped in '67 I think.

At that time BKS also had a reasonable schedule to other parts of the UK and Europe as well. As I remember BFS, DUB, JER, GCI, OST, and AMS/DUS. Also the Elizabethan and later the Viscount operated NCL-LBA-LBG and v.v. but none of these except the Channel Isles in peak holiday season were more than twice daily.

Interestingly enough I was once chatting to the then CEO of BA in the late 90s who told me that LBA was the one domestic service he regretted that BA had given up.

In my last 10 years with BA I was a commuter from LBA when flying longhaul however, then as now, Manchester was a reliable alternative.

[Strelnikov]

harrogate

You've clearly had a bad experience on NXEC and you've also clearly never used Megabus. "And I really mean that" :}.

I travel to Newcastle and Leeds on business from London at least once a fortnight to each destination and, whilst my preference is flying (as I love flying) I'm afraid flying does not touch rail to either destination.

Heathrow is a miserable place to travel to and from.
Flights are less punctual than rail (yet air users seem to just accept this - why?)
Rail does not have the ludicrous security of flying (the queue at Newcastle airport is particularly tedious).
Flying does not have Wi-Fi.
Rail does not have the "hidden surcharges" that dog flight tickets.
You can use the phone on the train.
You can have a proper meal at a table on a train.
Rail of course is also more environmentally sound but thats a red rag to a bull on PPRUNE.
Etc....

I love flying but I have to dispense with the rose tinted spectacles - Yeadon London via Heathrow does not come close to rail for business.

Now Docklands and Gatwick might be interesting though.

[harrogate]

I've used the Megabus a couple of times, out of neccessity. It's not so bad. I genuinely never have a good trip with National Express, on the other hand.

Heathrow is not what I was referring to. I was on about London. A well-priced feeder service from Leeds into Gatwick would tap into the ongoing low cost network from there (i.e. Easyjet).

Going by train onwards from KX to any of the airports in London for connecting flights is not particularly convenient, especially in peak periods and with a bit of gear to lug around. A well timed, well priced and well run air service down to Gatwick would make up lost ground over the train by virtue of the capacity to cut out London altogether.

[MMENCLLBAMAN]

First of all - I do not work for National Express East Coast.

Living in York and having to visit London at least twice a week, the train has always been my first choice for regularlity and convinience (i.e. not having to drive across to LBA) however until recently my ex lived 10 minutes drive from the airport so over the last two years I trialed the bmi service - these are my observations

bmi
Check in 1 hour prior to flight
Fight my way through the Jet2 Palma and Alicante crowds drinking beer at silly times of the morning.
Board aircraft 5 minutes prior to scheduled departure time whilst bags still being loaded and aircraft still being refulled.
Depart LBA at least 10 minutes behind schedule.
Enjoy a complimentary 'meal deal' on presentation of my diamond club card consisting of an unedible sandwich and cup of tea chucked at me due to short flight time.
Hold over London
Land at LHR on time, arrive at gate 40 minutes late and on a couple of occasions on an international gate with bus requried to domestic.
Wait 30 minutes + for luggage
Endure StalagHeathrow to tube
Sit on Piccadilly Line for an hour (if lucky) whilst either in someones armpit or two inches from someone crotch
Arrive at Kings Cross very :mad: off.

National Express (from Leeds)
Arrive 20 minutes before train and grab coffee in pleasant First Class Lounge.
Join clean train, take seat with water, biscuits and real cup ready for coffee.
Switch on laptop and treat train as office.
Decide slightly hungry and walk to restaurant where pleasant food served by pleasant people (albeit expensive)
Realise by Stevenage have done more work on train than would have done in office decide to pick up paper and catch up on world affairs.
Pull into Kings Cross, leave train refreshed.
Possible drawbacks: No seat (I always reserve as book far enough in advance to get cheaper tickets) or possible delays (IMHO much less now with NXEC than under GNER - maybe due to their very fair Delay Repay policy)

Megabus
Do I even need to go there!

I am also sad to see LBA loose is historic link to the capital and it will no doubt be a hinderance to me in the future but surely anyone who claimed that it was good for commuters has to be living in the wrong decade.

As for LGW, I hope it happens for the sake of the area but I for one will be sticking to the train.

Edited - I forgot to mention you do not have to queue to have yourself and all of your belongings roughly searched on the train ;)

[freightdoggy dog]

Mooncrest...sorry just cant see it getting up PMs nose.

Regional connections from the midlands/north to LHR/LGW/STN do not stand up anymore when trying to operate against the rail companies. Whom as stated before, have the benefits of no security q's no moronic security jobsworths, flexible fares, laptop time , real food etc.

[brian_dromey]

I agree, I've flown with bmi to LHR and last week I took the train to London. It was a very pleasant, quick and comfortable journey, I can't complain at all. for p2p journeys the train is a no brianer, for onwards connections it's better to fly. That having been said its pretty easy to get to MAN from the Leeds area anyway, bus, train or car.

It is a sad thing that it has come to this, however.

Brian.

[Channex101]

MMENCLLBAMAN - Never heard of the Heathow Xpress then, bit more pricey but only 15 mins in someones arm pit instead of over an hour!!

I fly for BA out of LHR but commute from NCL and i have had the pleasure of both the train and air... for me personally air wins everytime (not just becuase its BA, i have ued Flybe and BMI in the past too for LGW)

I have a rail card for National Express as i used them a fair bit before xmas and i have to say, clean train? hhmm find that hard to believe... free WIFI? when it works!!!
Able to use your mobile phone? please!! thats why i choose to fly, to not sit next to someone who thinks they are on trigger happy TV and insists on having their conversation at the top of their voice for 3hrs!!!
I know all public loo's are vile, airlines as well, but ive never seen anything like what national express have, i wish they could get an extra few mins stop at a station half way and at least give the loo's a wipe over!!
Personally i find the train a faff on, if im doing a day return to london i dont wanna be spending 6hours travelling

[Strelnikov]

Heathrow Express.

£32 standard return for a 15 minute train journey that doesn't take you to London.

It takes you to Paddington that remains a further taxi and tube journey to where you actually want to go to. If you're working in the City itself then you are still 30+ minutes away.

[galaxy68]

Strelnikov, the reference is in the "history" section

A location east of Leeds would be fine for those in Leeds, but not Bradford, such a location would then boost Manchesters attraction. At least its only 7/8 miles from each centre. The proposal for the A1 link road to be west of Leeds would have been great for the airport, but this route was always going to be a non starter.
When it was realised that the 5400 foot runway was inadequate, it was actually Leeds Council that continually and vigourously opposed expansion, but Bradford never did, they always supported it.
What they could have done at minimal cost, was to put barriers and traffic lights on the Harrogate Rd. In effect this would have given an extension, within a matter of months and not requiring lengthy planning permission.

[LBAlady]

Please forgive me if this is old news or just a rumour but was told that bmi regional is also to close its base down at LBA?

Obviously I am aware of mainline pulling the plug on the LHR but not regional backing out as well.

[Baltasound]

Just to clarify a couple of points regarding the ECML - one NatEx is not being stripped of the franchise. It is one of those in dire straits but then most are.
And two GNER did not give up on the route "easily". It could not pay the premium required by DaFT and the parent company went into administration.

There will be more trains into KX from Yorkshire come December - Grand Central out of Teeside, more into London ex Leeds with some Bradford/ Halifax into the pot and rumours that the former Cleethorpes service will be resurrected.

So that may have a fairly serious affect on short hauls into either LGW/LHR. City maybe different tho...

[rpmac]

For those wanting central London the train is generally the best from Leeds, York, Bradford etc, but what the business community wants is connections to a London hub for international flights. I think BA would do fairly well with a 3 x daily Airbus 319 into T5. BMi Mainline and Regional have probably just about ruined their reputation with Yorkshire travellers by reducing services, starting some them stopping (Cork, LCY, Copenhagen, Lille (!) . How is it that Jet2 have overtaken BMi at Leeds in just a few years and have services to Paris, Amsterdam, Belfast, Barcelona, Nice --- routes that BMi should have started years ago.
BA or Flybe should now delevop a London route, it will take time and Yorkshire business travellers should get behind it and support it. Probably Flybe should also consider Edinburgh, Glasgow, Frankfurt before BMi finally leave the Yorkshire scene. Others would be open for Copenhagen, Brussels etc etc. And then there is EasyJet.... well that is another potential story.

[Piers6]

Another source of passenger revenue that BMI have lost is that of the business users who work for the many multinationals whose Uk bases are in the Heathrow , Slough, Windsor,Staines areas. It was great to be able to take the early flight and be at the office before the locals got there. This also saved a nights accomodation cost and therefore became cost effective. The rail alternative is not brilliant especially with baggage. The underground between Kings Cross and Paddington is a real drag.

[pwalhx]

Piers6 is spot on, I used the BD service to get to our Heathrow office, now I will drive to Manchester and fly from there to Heathrow.

[Piers6]

What i failed to say which I meant to was that by doing away with the early flight they effectively sabotaged the route. The current first flight gets in to Heathrow too late for a full business day.

[A300BOY]

As far as I am concerned Heathrow is now not on my travelling map for onward connections. If I do not have easy access to it why would I support a third runway being built ? Spend the money on the Regional Airports for a change. So its got to be
1. Amsterdam although the F100 is not even cat 2 at Leeds so the service is at best unreliable.
2. Manchester for my long haul needs, maybe but not so many options.
3. The new Frankfurt when they announce it (if it happens) which is a good idea when you have just shut down the Heathrow link !!!!

[Strelnikov]

I can't argue with your logic pwalhx. If you're office is at Heathrow then a direct flight to Heathrow is probably the best way of getting there :}.

Now how about the other 15 million in the south east who don't work at the Heathrow office.......?

[bobleeds]

Strelnikov,

Piers6 was referring to Companies which have located their UK Corporate Headquarters in the Corridor running out Southwest from Heathrow such as Woking, Guildford, Basingstoke etc. with a view to good connections with Europe and beyond (but also originally with the important business centres of the UK). These locations are far easier to reach from Leeds using the LHR flight than via Kings Cross then accross London to Waterloo or Victoria and onwards. My own company has it's UK Head Office in Guildford with Training Facilities in Horsley Surrey. When I've used the "old" BM early morning departure from Leeds I could be working at a desk in Guildford by 0830, and also had quite a decent little breakfast en-route.

Bmi have been working away to trash the LBA-LHR route for years now. It would be great if BA could be persuaded to return, but highly unlikely. Dept of Transport should have stepped in to ring-fence slots for regional services.

[Strelnikov]

bobleeds - what has Piers6 post got to do with me? I didn't comment on it.

Since you did though I'd expand my observation regarding the person who worked in the Heathrow office and not surprisingly thought a Heathrow service was a good idea. Heathrow is good only for domestic journeys to west London and the immediate hinterland. Elsewhere it's the option for only those who enjoy purgatory.

I think many of you are in a fantasy land that any operator will step in. BMI withdrew to use the slots on something more valuable.

Which current slot owning operator is going to swap which less valuable route to serve Leeds?

[A300BOY]

I wonder why slots could not have been allocated as International or Domestic ? Maybe then the regional feeder services would have been more attractive to operate and not make the slots more valuable than the services.

[HOODED]

A300Boy, AMS on KLM F100 not being CAT2 and therefore being unreliable!

Why not use the JET2 to AMS with a CAT3 capable 737??

How often are the RVRs less than 200m?

[A300BOY]

Yep thats fine for Amsterdam, but the link fares for onward Klm flights would not then be available. My 9 month basing in Bahrain in 2004-2005 using Klm via Amsterdam travelling 11 times in total produced 2 unplanned nights in Amsterdam, due the Leeds connection not being good enough and as a result missed onwards flights. We need the new E190s hopefully with Cat 3 asap on our services. Just seen one at Amsterdam tonight very smart !

[backtrack_32]

Heard People talking about LBA been the first UK, KLC, E190 Base!

[globetrotter79]

Anyone heard any more about the rumoured LBA-LCY?
I am given to believe that a carrier has already reserved LCY slots for the route to commence this summer...

[SWBKCB]

Heard People talking about LBA been the first UK, KLC, E190 Base!

Do KL have any UK bases? If not, why would KL have a base at LBA?

[Ian Brooks]

Don`t know about base but they do come to Manchester daily

Ian

[backtrack_32]

Well i mean as in the aircraft LBA has over night! Is that not classed as a base?

[SWBKCB]

In a word - no. That's a night stop with the crew usually in hotels. A base is a bit more than that...

[HiflierEK]

In a word Yes. KLM do have a base at leeds with local cabin and flight deck that stay in hotels when in Amsterdam.

[backtrack_32]

Leeds has over 70 based crew members!

[Wellington Bomber]

Humberside is a base also for KLM

[airhumberside]

KLM Cityhopper have crew bases at LBA, HUY and NWI left over from Air UK days

[A300BOY]

It was Air Anglia when I started with them in 1975 and then Air UK later
Oooh happy happy times !!!!! So they have had a base at Leeds since the 1970s even if the name changed a tad.

[Cloud1]

Just a thought, but as WOW are now operating NQY-LCY maybe there is scope for WOW to operate LBA-LCY at some point once they have established their route? I am sure they could operate a reasonable W pattern and remain suitable for business passengers wishing to travel from the SW

[airhumberside]

I dont see how a w pattern would work. By the time the aircraft had done NQY-PLH-LCY-LBA it would be mid morning and the aircraft would only just be operating its first LBA departure. Similarly the last LCY departure would have to be early so the aircraft could return to LCY in time for the evening PLH/NQY flight

Not saying WOW would never do LBA-LCY, but it would probably need a nightstopping aircraft at either LCY or LBA

[Cloud1]

I didn't say it had to be on the same aircraft that operates the NQY-LCY. But you are probably right anyway, do any of the ac still night stop at BRS? If so do they operate first thing to LBA?

[in-my-opinion]

Harrogate - you said '' But then I hear National Express have already been stripped of the franchise and it looks likely that Virgin will get it. Think what you like about Virgin companies, but Virgin Trains have got to be better than the current shower of ****. I've been on Virgin Trains a few times and it's always been fine - far better than National Express.''

Is this really true? - havent seen it reported in the papers and I did a quick Google search and couldnt find anything about this!

[lbalad]

I see the Islamabad and Heathrow flights diverted tonight.

Any idea why?

[wawkrk]

Vis 10,000m wind 26kt Westerly so why?

[jasond4]

it was due to windshear on finals

[SASfox]

Did LBA get 3 million pax last year?

I took my final flight to LHR yesterday, BD417 19 pax total. Very sad.

[Setel Up]

Now that the Heathrow route nears its end, lets hope that KLM see the light and up capacity, either with larger aircraft or more rotations, or preferably both!

B737 variants would be able to make use of the Runway 32 CatIII facility, unlike the Fokker jets.

Fingers crossed.

Setel Up

[lbalad]

Saw tonights flight arriving early over city centre about 6 50pm!.

However the LBIA website shows the departure as 'indefinate delay',what's the story anyone?

[backtrack_32]

AFAIK there was some damage done to the aircraft resulting it not to fly, (as i have been told)

Maybe another A310 comin g in tomorrow or will operate from MAN

[Runway 32/14]

I was going to ask that same question, regarding the the PIA flight to Islamabad....why is she still on the Tarmac at Leeds...i watched her come in last night, and i listened to the landing on my scanner, i didnt hear anything about damaged to this aircaraft.....does anyone have an answer to this....what damage, and how did this occur......this is going to cause some backlogging to the rest of the PIA services.....It's amazing how these can happen, i wonder if this will effect the operation of flying 3x a week. starting Monday from Leeds...

[Mooncrest]

Runway 32/14,

As far as I am aware, an airport service vehicle, type/operator unknown, had an inadvertent collision with the aircraft, resulting in one of the doors being rendered inoperative. I don't know if it was a hold or passenger door. That is all I know.

I'd be amazed if PIA used this seemingly isolated incident as a reason to question the wisdom of operating the route three times a week.

MC

[Runway 32/14]

Thanks for the responce.....i have noticed that the Islamabad flight will be going from Manchester tonight at 20.30 hours...

Just one other point.....what happens with the A310 that is stuck at Leeds....will it be repaired their..

[L-Band]

Airbus will come with a big roll of speed tape (magic stuff), tape it up and fly it to France:} :8

[Runway 32/14]

I guess gaffa tape has a million uses..lol:ok:

It's a pitty that PIA couldnt send another A310 to Leeds, that would have been a good photo opportunity to see two PIA A310 on the Tarmac at Leeds...

[LBA]

KLM are going the other way in the summer, both morning services downgraded to Fokker 70's to match the evening flight, no more Fokker 100's!

[Runway 32/14]

To be honest..there really isnt that much between the fokker 100 and the 70...okay the fokker 100 carries 23 more paxs..and is about 5 metres longer than the fokker 70.....but thats all really, who is really going to notice..they are both small aircraft basically no more than a shuttle service...

[backtrack_32]

they are only 70's because they are getting rid of the 100's and waiting for the ERJ's to come in! nothing to do with pax numbers.

[lbalad]

I passed the airport yesterday,and the A310 was still parked on the apron.

Is it still there?,whats the latest news on it?

[LBA_flyer]

From what I can work out from hearing various stories, the PIA aircraft was parked on Stand 13 or 14, during the offload an Interserve ambulift (which has been on station about a week) was going to take a wheelchair passenger through door R1.

Except it was positioned too far right, so when the ambulift body was raised it clipped the front cargo door causing a failure of the hydraulics, and the door slammed shut. AFAIK the cargo door is no longer flush with the cargo door, as the resultant force of door falling has caused ripples in the skin, no idea about the hydraulics.

[LBA]

To be honest..there really isnt that much between the fokker 100 and the 70...okay the fokker 100 carries 23 more paxs..and is about 5 metres longer than the fokker 70.....but thats all really, who is really going to notice..they are both small aircraft basically no more than a shuttle service...

Try telling that to the 90-100 pax who use the service every monday morning, as well as other busy times such as Friday/Saturday mornings.

[Runway 32/14]

Try telling that to the 90-100 pax who use the service every monday morning, as well as other busy times such as Friday/Saturday mornings.


Well i dont know how they are going to fit 90-100 pax into an aircraft that can only carry 80..:D

[Leodis]

LBA Flyer

Try stand 10

[Runway 32/14]

PK158 Is Departing From Leeds @ 19.00 Tonight, it is flying to Islamabad, and the gate is open for boarding...does anyone have any information on this??

Could it be the damaged aircraft returning to Islamabad....:confused:, as it hasnt come into Leeds today....

[lbalad]

What's goin off?.

Just got in from work,Sky 'breaking news'that LBIA is closed due to a suspicious package found on PIA aircraft on runway!.

Who's got the latest info?

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Quote
I took my final flight to LHR yesterday, BD417 19 pax total. Very sad.

Reply
I heard recently that, The 'Writing' was on the wall back in the 90's about the LHR route slots!!

But BD continued with it regardless.

An ex DC9 Driver told a friend that.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

It's all coming out in the wash now!!

[Runway 32/14]

I thought the flights to Heathrow were been finished due to BAA increasing the landing fee's by 80%, it's not only LBA that is effected by this...

[flybar]

PIA suspicious package

What's goin off?.

Just got in from work,Sky 'breaking news'that LBIA is closed due to a suspicious package found on PIA aircraft on runway!.

Who's got the latest info?


All Clear - False alarm - Airport re-opened

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Not that I have been told.

Apparently BD/BMI - Or what ever they now are.Lol

Have said that the slots will make more revenue for Middle Eastern Routes.

And have kicked into touch the routes that made British Midland what they were.

[Runway 32/14]

Leeds Bradford has re-opened after a suspicious package was found on board the pakistani flight to Islamabad.....the device was apparently a hoax and the police have now given the all clear...

[Runway 32/14]

Originally Posted by ft.com
bmi British Midland, the second-largest airline operating at London Heathrow airport, is eliminating an important part of its UK domestic network and is cutting capacity to continental Europe amid rising losses.

bmi will announce on friday it is axing two of its mainline services between Heathrow and Leeds Bradford and Durham Tees Valley – a total of seven daily departures – in addition to the previously announced closure of the twice-daily service between Heathrow and Jersey.

It will also be reducing the number of daily services between Heathrow and Dublin from seven to six, and between Heathrow and Amsterdam from seven to four. Capacity is being cut on the Heathrow to Aberdeen and Brussels routes by using small regional jets in place of the existing larger Airbus aircraft.

Heavy pressure to staunch losses is coming from Germany’s Lufthansa, which is due to complete its takeover of a majority 80 per cent stake in the UK carrier next month. Some BMI jets are to be leased out to Lufthansa.

The worsening of the problems facing BMI was disclosed two weeks, when the group decided to renege on a three-year pay deal and implemented a pay freeze at short notice for 2009, the third year of the deal.

The increase was paid by some banks into pilots’ accounts only to be withdrawn hours later, triggering the calling of a no-confidence ballot by pilots in Nigel Turner, BMI chief executive.

Mr Turner has previously disclosed the airline suffered the biggest loss in its history in 2008. He is expected to tell the 5,000 staff trading conditions have deteriorated further in recent weeks.

The group is being hit by a sharp reduction in both business and leisure traffic, and is being forced to take action to eliminate lossmaking routes and cut capacity.

BMI is removing about four aircraft or 12 per cent of its mainline short-haul fleet of 32 Airbus A320 family jets, which are to be used in charter rather than scheduled service. Two of the Airbus fleet are to be leased to Lufthansa together with BMI pilots and cabin crew, and will be operated on the German airline’s planned new route between Milan Malpensa and Heathrow, and Berlin and Heathrow.

[Runway 32/14]

Bmi is to cut its services between Heathrow airport and the North of England after 40 years of continuous service
The airline will end its regular flights from London to Durham Tees Valley and Leeds Bradford airports from March 28, although links between Heathrow and Manchester will remain.
The move will close two routes that Bmi has operated for 40 and 30 years respectively, and follows British Airways’ decision to reduce services between Gatwick and Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester airports last November.
Bmi said a combination of falling demand, increased costs imposed by BAA at Heathrow and the Government’s decision to increase Air Passenger Duty (APD) were behind the cuts.
“The fact is that due in the main to BAA’s inflation-busting increases and changes to its pricing structures have placed a considerable disadvantage on short haul flights,” said Peter Spencer, managing director of Bmi.
“Travellers in the North of England are losing important links to Heathrow - they will now have to rely on European airports such as Amsterdam, Brussels and Frankfurt to connect to worldwide destinations,” he added.
Bmi carried 62,000 passengers on its four daily services between Leeds Bradford and Heathrow last year, while it currently operates three daily flights between Heathrow and Durham Tees.
Representatives from both airports say they are looking to maintain alternative links with London.
“We are well aware of the importance to our region of regular air links to London,” said John Parkin, chief executive of Leeds Bradford Airport. “We expect to be in a position to announce new services to the capital shortly.”
Hugh Lang, director of Peel Airports, which operates Liverpool John Lennon, Durham Tees Valley, Robin Hood and the City of Manchester airports, described the cuts as “disappointing”.
He added: “We understand the pressures Bmi are facing as a result of the economic climate and the impact of the punitive APD charges.”
The Government’s decision to increase APD has added further pressure on airlines already struggling to cope with the recession and a reduction in demand for air travel.
In November, APD – which was doubled in 2007 – will be restructured, making long- and medium-haul flights significantly more expensive.
Despite the financial downturn, Bmi has expanded some of its international services from Heathrow in recent weeks, announcing new routes to Riyadh and Tel Aviv.
However, services between Heathrow and Jersey and long-haul flights from Manchester have been stopped altogether, while flights to Dublin, Amsterdam, Brussels and Aberdeen have also been reduced since the announcement of a takeover by German airline Lufthansa, which is likely to be completed next month.

[johnnychips]

I thought we knew all this anyway?

[BYALPHAINDIA]

We didn't think BD/BMI would go this far thou!!

To be honest I think BD/BMI have got off 'Lightly' with the LBIA Management.

If I was the manager of LBIA, I would have told them to pull out altogether, Or maintain the long established LHR route!!

LBIA management, For some reason have always been a 'Bit weak' & a 'Bit weird' business wise (Too Nice) when dealing with airlines, So I am not surprised that they have accepted BD/BMI's decison without a 'Fight'

BD/BMI have simply kicked 40 or so years of trade into touch without any 'Proper consultation' whatsoever!!

Because they are obsessed with LHR so much, DTV & other airports have also had the carpet pulled away from them!!

But BD/BMI will realise when they have 3 or more of their aircraft holding daily for R27 or whatever burning more fuel.

Adding aircraft to an even more 'Congested' 2 runways, LHR can only handle so many aircraft (saturation point) safely.

I don't think BD/BMI have even taken into consideration the event of any outbreaks of violence or war in the middle east, If that happens then those 'Lucrative' slots that they are using the ex LBIA, DTV etc slots for will be not in use?

If BD/BMI could not make any 'Suitable' money on the LHR route, Then that's wasn't the airport's making, BD/BMI should have reduced their fares a long time ago when the likes of Nat Ex & GNER were selling seats for less than half the fare BD/BMI were asking sometimes one-way.

BD/BMI must have seen all this coming years ago?

People were not going to pay 68.00 one-way or whatever when they could go on a return for that by coach or by rail.

The GNER service is excellent and is a fast connection direct to Kings X, When you add up the flight time 45 min + the tube 25 -35 min into the city I would say there is not much in it.

I wouldn't be surprised if the MAN flight finishes next?

Together Sir M Bishop & Nigel Turner have 'Ruined' one of the remaining British made airlines that we have left operating!!

But SMB is not bothered now, He will get 'Paid Off' by his German friends!

And probably 'Turner' will follow or get 'Penshioned Off'

I wish I had a 'Dartboard, Don't you? Lol

RIP 'The Diamond Service DC9'

[Mod Kit]

And probably 'Turner' will follow or get 'Penshioned Off'

Pensioned off or PERISHED off more like it!! I can set the scene - the last flicker of life is extunguished at Donington Hell (sorry Hall) as Mr T switches off the lights for the last time, and Mr T is spotted escaping towards the race track with handsome amounts of Deutsche Marks stuffed in a suitcase. LH 1 bmi 0. What a plan!

:O

[BYALPHAINDIA]

TOM Thu PMI is now a 757 for 22 weeks of the summer.

A 1305/ D 1420

Bookings must be good enough to upgrade?

[LBA]

Well last year we had a Sunday service operated by Futura, and then Thomson with their own aircraft to Palma after FUA went belly up with a 737-800, so in total even with the 757 we have still lost about 140 seats a week with Thomson to Palma.

[LBIA]

Thomson Holidays are still doing 2 charter flights this summer to Palma-Majorca from LBA.

The Thursday Thomson Airlines flight has been upgraded from Boeing 737-800 to a Boeing 757-200 for 22 weeks as mentioned earlier by BYALPHAINDIA

Meanwhile instead of using a sub charter on the Sunday flight like last year with Futura Int'l, Thomson Airlines are launching a new Tuesday afternoon service this summer with a Boeing 737-800 arriving LBA 14:10 and departing at 15:20.

So they have added extra seats compared to last year.

[TartinTon]

If 62,000 is really the number of pax carried on that number of services then the loads must have been appalling. Doing the maths...assuming 4 flights a day mon-fri and 2 daily sat/sun that's 24 roundtrips or 48 sectors. Assuming a 50 week operating pattern (allowing for Xmas/Easter etc) that's 62000 / 50 = 1240 pax a week. 1240 / 48 sectors = 26 pax a flight (rounded up). Even if they all paid £68 a flight that's only £1768 each sector!!! I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did!!!

[EGNMCharlie]

Don't know where they got those figures from but in 2008 bmi carried 126,069 passengers on the Heathrow route compared to 136,952. The drop is mainly due to the ERJ being used from Oct/Nov ish time loosing about 4,000 pax a month.

[lbalad]

I saw this aircraft landing around 12 50pm.I had a look on lbia website,I presume it is operating a sub for another airline.

Was it the TCX flight or a Jet2 one,any details please?.

[mmeteesside]

TCX flight to Tenerife

[flybar]

At noon TCX Airbus was still where it parked last night - Must be tech issue!!

[BYALPHAINDIA]

LBA & LBIA,

I was told recently that TOM was interested in creating a base at LBIA in 2003/4.

But the Airport was going to charge 15.00 per pax.

At a similar time LS negotiated a deal for 50p per pax - And so this is why LS are doing very well.

TOM were split between the choice of DSA or LBA.

Also - I haven't had any magazines /flyers from LBIA for over a year now, I receive alot from BHX, HUY & DTV but nothing from LBIA?

I think there marketing has always been very poor compard to other Airports.

[flybar]

I think there marketing has always been very poor compard to other Airports.


Hope their spelling is better!!

[wawkrk]

I have given up on the word "their"
With the poor English skills today, it seems to have been dropped.

[Runway 32/14]

http://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/graphics/airlinelogos/ls.gifhttp://www.leedsbradfordairport.co.uk/graphics/clearfiller.gifLS177P MONTREAL (DORVAL INTERNATIONAL) 2150 LANDED 22:57
Okay this flight has landed at Leeds last night......anybody have any information on Jet2 flying to or from Cananda???

[flybar]

Look at Jet2 - 2 thread

[Runway 32/14]

Checked it and and i understand....did this aircraft fly back to Leeds empty, surely if it was carrying passangers it would have returned to LGW..

[flybar]

Empty - Positioning flight back to LBA

[Rainboe]

wawkrk
I have given up on the word "their"
With the poor English skills today, it seems to have been dropped.
Don't give up! keep driving the point home- these aren't keyboard slips, they are plain ignorance. We all had schooling- if people want to communicate with the wider world, why should we accept sloppy crap like that? It makes me wince. And the response you get? Abuse! So what? I'd rather try and get my grammar right than be a lazy ignorant slob not knowing the difference between there, they're and their, 'would have' and 'would of', and all the other sensible grammar matters they could be bothered to listen in to in class!

Why should the written world become a morass of stupid mistakes by the great uneducated (uneducated because they couldn't be bothered to listen)? It's the English today who display 'poor English skills'. They must be shamed into at least trying, not protected from all criticism!

[leeds-bradford]

My mates on that flight, dropped him off, he checked in and I saw him off. Flight was meant to leave at 9.30 but its being delayed to 11.30 at the earliest. They've given out £8 food vouchers, and told them the flight has been delayed due to 'Technical Issues' with the Aircraft A310-300. Can anybody shine a light on the technical issues?

[jasond4]

I have seen on other forums that the aircraft has a fuel leak.

Jason

[leeds-bradford]

This is getting stranger. I was listening to the PIA on the radio and it said something about Dubai and I was like WTF. I rang up my mate and he says there having a two hour stop in Dubai. Anyone know why?:confused:

[jongeman]

I reckon there stopping there because of something to do with fuel. LBA to DXB isn't quite as far as LBA - ISB

[Leodis]

I reckon it stopped in DXB because it could depart lighter with less noise given the fact that the aircraft departed at 00:15, long after the nighttime curfew of 23:00 for the A310-300 type aircraft :=

[leeds-bradford]

Well 2 hours in Dubai is quite long for a quick fuel refil I would have thought. Anyway just checked ISB website. Flight was schedule to come in 8.35 but it is expected at 15.00 Pakistani Time. The time there is now almost four and it's still not arrived:confused:

[Runway 32/14]

LBA shouldnt have a "curfew"....all the local properties have at least been given triple glazing and soundproofing...so why does Leeds have a curfew...besides ..the airportd been there long enought so people who choose to live near the airport, should know what to expect!!!!!

I thought Leeds had a 24 hour licence for landing and departures!!!!

[paully]

You are quite correct runway...if you buy a house near an airport you are going to get aircraft noise...dont want it?..buy elsewhere its really that simple :=

[andy mach 1]

The curfew maybe something to do with particular aircraft types ie noise levels in stage 2 aircraft

[Runway 32/14]

Okay, at about 16.20 this afternoon, a rather large Military jet i beleive to be a C17 transporter flew over my house to land on runway 32 at Leeds..i managed to grab a photo of this aircraft..but it isnt very good, I was wondering, was it a C17 and did anyone see it land at Leeds
not sure if this link will work...its the picture i took of this aircraft...

http://img328.rockyou.com/imagehost/15/15255/15255238/15255238_6c4f153d1239207374.jpg

[LBA]

That is a C17, and yes it did land at LBA.

[Runway 32/14]

Thanks for that LBA, I thought it was, but its always good to get a second opinion......Do you work at the airport!!!

Did it come in for anything specific...was it loaded?? it is nice to see a large aircraft come into Leeds, i know for one thing...it wasnt carrying my wages....LOL

[scamptonboy]

The C17 in question was ZZ175 which came in from Schipol

Not sure what load it had.

Scamps

[Andy_S]

I've read some BS on PPRuNe, and I have to say that's well up there. Maybe your friend should stick to collecting boarding cards.

[A300BOY]

Hi TopazBlue
I sympathise with your situation and worries ! I fly the Airbus A300 which is a very similar aircraft to the A310 with just about identical fuel systems. I doubt the leak was overboard and suspect it was internal between the fuel tanks which would mean one of the tanks would be unusable making the range of the flight around 1 to 2 hours flying shorter if the tank had to be empty! This would be caused by an internal non return valve not working properly.

[veetwo]

No Airline pilot in his or her right mind would take an aeroplane in to the sky with a known external fuel leak. Full stop. Frankly, if there was any doubt regarding the integrity of the fuel system at all i doubt the flight would take off. I suspect a severe case of chinese whispers.

V2

[SASfox]

I've just read the latest press issue on LBIA telling us about what a cracking weekend LBA should have! They list Cyprus as one of the hotspots.... If only i could fly there from LBA this weekend. Fat chance as the flights to Cyprus don't start for another 3 weeks.

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Cyprus is not the cheapest destination for your money.

[john2408]

Why not take a flight to Cyprus from HUY. Wednesday's.:ok:

[LBIA]

Hi

Dose anyone know if there is any truth in that CAA has recently given LBIA approval for the long awaited CATII to be installed on runway 14?

By all accounts the airport still wants to start the work ASAP. But they will most likely have to wait until the winter 2009/10 period.

[Standard Loading]

I suppose it all depends on the a/c movements of that day, and how the ILS system is "wired in" as it were. I should think that it will be done rather rapidly, as the quicker they get it in the more customer airlines will come into LBA.

Also the possibility of PIA bringing in a B772 to LBA means the CAT would have to be upgraded. (BTW this is a rumour that has come through the fire station in regards to shift patterns and RFFS CAT9/CAT10 capability)

[BYALPHAINDIA]

I heard an 'Interesting' tale yesterday from a young Asian lad whose relative is a PIA 777 Driver is saving up to take Flying Lessons at Multiflight.

He said that he went into a well known Leeds Aviation/Enthusiasts shop, And was looking at Headsets/Flying books when the owner got suspicous about him.

The shop owner rang the local police or whoever? and the lad obviously felt embarrassed and left the shop.

I know the shop owner, I must admit I don't really rate him as a people person, But I think he probably 'Over reacted' in going as far as ringing the police!

There are some Asian students taking Flying Lessons.

If you know which shop I am talking about, Then you may think the same huh..?!!

9/11 happened 8 years ago - We have moved on since then.

[HOODED]

Can't see PIA even contemplating 772 ops ex LBA the runway performance of the 772ER/LR they operate is horrendous at MTOW. LBA would need to put down an extra 1000m to get one off at MTOW. Whilst I accept they would not be at MTOW to do ISB they would need to be somewhere close to it with full pax loads. PIA do seem to be filling the A310 on a regular basis but surely given LBAs 2250m they would be better sticking to the A310 and increasing the number of flights per week.:}

[wawkrk]

The MTOW of the B737-300 is more horrendous at 3000m
The 777-200LR with the the more powerful engines (used by PIA) has a performance close to the A310-300 according to a Boeing take off distance chart. The LBA-ISB route is probably about 60% of the B777-200LR range so lightly loaded.

[L-Band]

wawkirk

I will point out that although Boeing claim a performance figure for its various A/C, PIA will also produce a SOP based on its regulating authority and the AOC. So without looking at PIA's Flight Manual and reviewing there performance figures for a given temp and Alt, and OCL. whilst the 772 may operate from LBA can it do it legally within the company SOP?

[wawkrk]

The figures quoted from Boeing are like for like operating conditions for aircraft from DC3 to A380 all on the same chart.

[L-Band]

WAWKRK
Better get you to run and operate all these aircraft then, you seem to know more than the the operation dept and the CAA/FAA/EASA and the rest.:bored:

[wawkrk]

No need to get on your high horse L-Band, I was only saying where the figures came from, nothing more, nothing less.
Why are so many people agressive on this forum?

[lbalad]

Just been reading in an Aviation mag that LBA ranked 16th out of 58 UK airports in passenger numbers.

2,873,321 in 2008

2,881,539 in 2007

-0.29 change

Airports ranked above LBA:

LCY,ABZ,NCL,BFS,LPL,EMA,BRS,GLA,EDI,BHX,LTN,MAN,STN,LGW,LHR

Anybody any thoughts on how 2009 will pan out?

[Leodis]

...because this forum is full of know it all college students that weren't even around in the days of airlines such as Wardair. They were all but a twinkle in their fathers eye when the likes of us were seeing 747s, 707, DC10 and DC8 roar down the runway at LBA. :}

[Runway 32/14]

Well said Leodis.....Ahhhhh those good old days!!!

[STATSMAN]

and a TriStar ended in the mud!!

[Frankfurt_Cowboy]

OK, I'll bite. I recall the occasional MEA 720 going to Lourdes, but 707's and especially DC10's????

[wawkrk]

(and a TriStar ended in the mud!!)

And the pilot landed half way down a wet slippy runway and aquaplaned.
I saw it happen.
The runway was later re-grooved.

[Skipness One Echo]

Whilst I accept they would not be at MTOW to do ISB they would need to be somewhere close to it with full pax loads.

Complete rubbish.

[bobleeds]

Yes Wawkrk,

I was up by the cemetery that day too! Also there the rainy Sunday after Chernobyl to see an Air Holland 727 (Could be wy I've since lost my hair!).

We regularly had Caravelles with 'chutes, JAT 707's not to mention Iberia A300's, Spanair Convair 990's, and DC8's from Aviaco and Worldways. Wardair regularly sent 747-200's and at least once a DC10.

So what's the big fuss about a 777?

Bob

[harrogate]

Didn't LBA once have a 747 around 1997/1998?

[bobleeds]

Hello Harrogate,

Apart from the Wardair schedule which operated back in the 1980's there have been an infrequent number of 747 visits including Air Atlanta operating Lourdes/football charters for LUFC supporters, and UAE(?) State 747SP bringing in a VIP for treatment at one of the Leeds hospitals.

In the summer of 1996 LBA received numerous aircraft for Euro 1996 including Corsair 747's and Aeromaritime DC10 etc.

In about 2000, I believe Corsair brought in 2 747-300's on one day to take Leeds fans to Madrid or somewhere during their European Champions League forays (How the mighty have fallen). Nowadays we get ourselves into a tizzy when an A310 or 767 comes in!

[wawkrk]

I have a photo of a Virgin Atlantic 747 at LBA.
On the day the runaway extension opened we had the Wardair 747 which made a low pass with undercarriage down before landing and the BA747 operating pleasure flights and low passes. That was an awesome sight.
Also not forgetting the 1st Concorde with Air France landing in a 40kt crosswind.The old chap flying it said it was interesting.

[Centre cities]

If my memory serves me correctly and the old airport timetables in the loft are correct the WD 747 only operated from and to BHX.

No problem at all of Leeds runway due to the low fuel load and max half pax load.

Centre cities

[Leodis]

The first ever service to Toronto operated direct from the airport to prove that it could be done. The airline then scheduled the service to operate via Birmingham.

[Flightrider]

The Wardair 747 did normally operate LBA-BHX-YYZ (WD166/167) every Monday but there were a few occasions where it went direct. Bear in mind that quite a lot has changed since then, not least notional pax weights have increased substantially.

[Runway 32/14]

:}Maybe pax weights have increased...but baggage allowances have decreased..therefor the balance is even......if they scrapped the rubbish on board shopping,,perfume and stuff, that would also reduce weight..if they pressurised the aircraft with helium wouldnt that make the aircraft lighter (i jest) ...and havent Leeds over the last couple of months been visited with the C17 Globmaster III OKAY A BIG PLANE WITH EXCEPTIONAL DECELERATION......does any of this matter....LBA is stuck as it is for now, maybe a another 1500ft of runway would help, it all depends at the ends of the day about cost, usability and planning concent, i am all for seeing massive expansion at Leeds, but the current economic climate might make things a bit more difficult, and as for the eco warriors....maybe they should be deported!!!!!:}

[norjet806]

We really did have a wide variety of large aircraft in the 80's and 90's, I've put a few pics of some of the best on Airliners.net if anyone fancies a look. I can't remember ever seeing a Convair 990 though (Spantax?), does anyone have a pic of this?

Photos: Boeing 747-136 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/British-Airways/Boeing-747-136/1476004/L/)

Photos: Boeing 747-1D1 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Wardair-Canada/Boeing-747-1D1/1477213/L/)

Photos: Boeing 727-2H9/Adv Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/JAT---Yugoslav/Boeing-727-2H9-Adv/1477214/L/)

Photos: Boeing 747-128 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Corsair/Boeing-747-128/1476005/L/)

Photos: Tupolev Tu-154B-1 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Balkan---Bulgarian/Tupolev-Tu-154B-1/1476873/L/)

Photos: Lockheed L-1011-385-1-15 TriStar 100 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Worldways-Canada/Lockheed-L-1011-385-1-15-TriStar/1481541/L/)

Photos: Lockheed L-1011-385-1 TriStar 50 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Ecu-Air-(Air/Lockheed-L-1011-385-1-TriStar/1481627/L/)

And last weeks star visitor, the C-17

Photos: Boeing C-17A Globemaster III Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air/Boeing-C-17A-Globemaster/1512740/L/)

[Flying Yorkshireman]

A few memories here, many taken by myself.

LBAviation - Older Years Gallery (http://www.lbaviation.co.uk/page10.htm)

Richard

[LBIA]

Hi all

The local BBC Look North news programme reported this evening that the decision to allow planning permission for LBIA to expand its terminal building has been deferred by Leeds City council's, Leeds West Planning Committee today..

The decision will now be handed over to the Senior Planning Office and the application will now have to be rubber stamped by him/her

So watch this space. Hopefully it won’t take too long to get that decision approved and get the needed construction started.

[BombardierCR7]

It was always planned to defer the decision to the Chief Planning Officer. Today's meeting by the plans panel was supposed the approval of the Planning Officer's recommendation to defer to the CPO based on the current proposal. I guess it did not go as well as planned:

Setback for LBA expansion bid as opponents make their voices heard (From Wharfedale Observer) (http://www.wharfedaleobserver.co.uk/news/4297474.Setback_for_LBA_expansion_bid_as_opponents_make_thei r_voices_heard/)

Seems ironic that the council are concerned with transport links, when it is themselves who have starved the airport of such links for the last half century.

[galaxy68]

My recollections are that the 1st seasons Wardairs were all direct to YYZ. There was never any operational difficulties in getting direct with a full load. On departure the performance of a four engined a/c is good, but the 747 couldnt land on 14, causing 1 to divert in that 1st summer. Thereafter they went via BHX for one or both of the following reasons. Firstly, they didnt have enough a/c, or wished to do more from BHX, so decided to combine. Secondly, they quickly realised that LBA couldnt cope with a full 747.... the new terminal being totally and utterly inadequate.
The latter is the most likely reason as Wardair were sticklers for their quality service.... I remember they offered full china service with real cutlery!

[Flying Yorkshireman]

Galaxy,

I seem to recall that Wardair managed to use Runway 32 on every landing made over the time that they operated into LBA over three, or was it four(?) summers. Not bad, as it was a weekly service.

However, I understand that the very last flight landed on 14 and the pilot made a pretty good job of it by all accounts.

Perhaps others may be able to confirm this?

Regards,

FY

[HOODED]

Yes it's true one flight did land on 14 but as far as I can remember the pilot got a slapped wrist for his troubles as 14 was too short a landing run for company ops. He proved them wrong. Shame we don't see many of the heavies anymore but the fact remains the runway is marginal for any realistic load for long haul.
Otherwise why would BHX be extending it's 8547ft/2605m runway which is already nearly 1200ft longer than LBA by another 400m? Lets not forget they also dont have a hill at one end and are not 680ft above sea level. BHX regularly gets 772/773s at the moment but they are obviously serious about long haul.

LBA however are making the best of what they have without a major spend on the runway. Thank goodness the A310 is still in operation, even the A330 would be feasable on a DUBAI but you are again on the margins.

If LBA really want to attract growth in long haul they will have to do some work on the runway. I don't see it happening any time soon.At least Bridgepoint are attempting to sort the terminal out.

[karlee alpha]

Absolutely amazing!, what a bunch of crooks leeds city council are, when they sold the airport they said they would sell for the good of the airport and now they turn down the planning application because of road links / public transport, when they refused to invest in it themselves over the years they enjoyed the profits. Well at least the money they received paid for all the councillors expence accounts!:*

[wawkrk]

The Terminal extension is required for exisiting passenger numbers.
Maybe the council morons are suggesting flights should be cut.

[L-Band]

karlee alpha
I would be very very careful what you put into print, you quite honestly do not know the first thing about what has gone on, and how to run a business?

I know you are going to say these are just your views, however I have realized over the years that I have being reading these posts not only on this site but others as well, that it does seem the aeroplane spotter can both run not only an airfield but a airline as well, better that the owners?:ugh:

The Council have a job to do and although a lot of people do not agree with them, they have control, nowt you can do about that, it is the law.:E

L

[wawkrk]

You are missing the point L-Band.
You say the council have a job to do.
The point is,they did not do it for the last 30 years.

[brittania0580]

Hi All, I agree with you Wawkrk the council sold Leeds Braford Airport to the current owners knowing what they would be going to do with the airport for the future, you have to keep moving with the times and Leeds being the Largest financial city outside London needs a good Airport, How ever it would be good to see a Rail link spur taken from Horsforth to the airport in the not too distance future. The council did what they could for the airport with very little monies but it now needs serious investment.
I hope it will not take the council long to decide on the Planning application.

[Runway 32/14]

I have been thinking about this one for a while now..and yes i do believe that the council are going back on there word...they told the new buyers of the airport, that they would only sell the airport if there was opportunity to grow and develope the airport...re-inforce the infrastructure of the the airport property (buildings, car parks etc)..this of-course can only be done if the proper facilities are in place to deal with un forseen or any potential problems.....the main problem being the roads and lack of rail links!!!!
This can only be granted if the detail plans for the airport are workable..if Bridgepoint have only offered a token gesture of financial support for the road and new rail links..then the council will be obliged to say No to planning...as this tiny and if i am honest, insulting amount of money to help build road and rail links is not re thought by Bridgepoint then further developement of our airport will not go ahead...i guess the local authorities could put their hands in their pockets and pay for the road and rail links, as this should have been done many years ago, the councils refusal to implement those basic things had delayed the development of LBA for many years...if we are not careful..Leeds Bradford Airport will be left too far behind to ever be able to catch up..and other airports,like DSA will take advantage of our delaying tactics......we can spend too much time talking, and not enought time building...LBA needs the roads and rail links, a further extension of the runway and an airline who are brave enought to introduce long haul flights. maybe LBA should look further into Cargo handling too...we have massive potential at this wonderful airport, but it needs acting on now, not in 4/5 years time....

[L-Band]

You are missing the point L-Band.
You say the council have a job to do.
The point is,they did not do it for the last 30 years.

Afraid not WAWKRK I think I have made a valid point!
It is people like you who miss the point.
Bridgepoint are only after getting the investment that they have put into this airfield (wouldn't you) and spending millions on a runway which he airfield has no room for, or even on a train to climb that hill up to the terminal is not going to make them money, but putting in more car parking, and providing more room bars, and cafe will so that is why. They have NO intention of putting down a load of concrete for a runway, the present one needs sorting out first.

Please come down of that cloud.

Just my own views!!!:ok:
L

[wawkrk]

You are talking rubbish L-Band, it is still you who is missing the point.
One more time. The sale of the airport was agreed only because the new owners would be allowed to improve the facilities and the new terminal was at the top of the list.

[lbalad]

Just been on local BBC news,Flybe to introduce flights to LGW from end of June.

[NEW-CREW]

Flights showing on the Flybe website, and the announcement is now on there too.

The timings on the last flight look a little strange. The flights look as if they originate in LGW, but the last flight of the day there's no return.

Maybe it's something I'm missing?

[OltonPete]

NEW-CREW

I agree that the timings of the last flight look odd as it in effect
looks like a Leeds based aircraft as the third flight departs Leeds
at 17.05 arriving back at 20.05.

The obvious one would be if it was operated by a Southampton
or Exeter based aircraft on the lines of SOU-LBA-LGW-LBA-SOU.
The SOU flights are almost set up for this but the last time I
looked the last SOU was 20.45 but there was still an inbound at 20.15.

I am sure there will be another flight after the aircraft arrives back
from Gatwick at 20.05 otherwise they will have an aircraft and crews overnighting in Leeds and if you did that your first outbound would be 0700 not 0900 to attract day-trip business pax.

I suspect there will be some timetable adjustments on other routes
to make this fit but still a good result for Leeds.

Pete

[airhumberside]

The EXT flight continues to ABZ, so unless BE either drop the EXT-ABZ link (which is advertised as a one stop through flight), or re-route it via another airport, I cant see the EXT aircraft being used

So that leaves SOU, or BHD would be another possibility

[L-Band]

WAWKRK
CLAP TRAP!
Well done when do you take over from Bridgepoint?

L

[TopazBlue]

I would like to say to those of you who would like all night flying that many residents bought their homes in the 70's as we ourselves did when the largest aircraft was a Britannia 737 that only came into LBA only two or three times a week. Back then noone envisaged that the airport would expand like it did with more flights and noise. We live under the flight path and homes a few yards across the street did get triple glazing, but we didn't as there had to be a cut off point. The noise personally doesn't bother me and i would love to see the airport expand and have more destinations, alot of my neighbours are against it as they were residents in 60's and 70's , some of thhose are elderly with homes paid for and don't want to move.
I am just pointing out to those in favour of all night flying just a couple of points to the other side of the argument. I don't see why some people have said on the forum that if they don't like it, they should move!!! Sometimes it is not that easy but like i mentioned before, i hope more destinations are introduced as i hate having to trek to Manchester for long haul when i have an airport just a few mins drive away!!

[BYALPHAINDIA]

A 'Long time' saying -
They should have built the Airport further away from Yeadon.

The Huby/Pannal area would have been more suitable.

[wawkrk]

Tell me L-Band, what do you know about running a business?
I run and own a successful international business covering more than 30 countries,what do you do? Are you one of the thought police or a council parasite?
You also seem to have learning difficulties.
My advice to you, Foxtrot Oscar you moron.

[Helen49]

Future Gloomy

Alas, sadly, any further significant development of LBIA is unlikely.

It is badly sited 682 ft amsl, with a cross prevailing wind runway and runway end safety areas which only just meet the ICAO minimum requirements. Any runway extension would involve massive expense and massive environmental impact. It has arguably the worst weather record of any UK regional airport and any development work eg. apron extension, terminal area development requires considerable earthworks and associated expense. Few airlines have ever been big fans of LBIA and there is still a lack of enthusiasm for ILS Cat ll and Cat lll operations on that shortish, big dipper style, runway.

Add to the above the inadequate road connections which cannot be improved significantly due to the scale of works needed and only a disappointing conclusion can be drawn. The airport has a huge catchment area on the doorstep, the envy of any and every airport, but continued development of the site is unrealistic. Sadly the Leeds planners are right, notwithstanding the fact that they have contributed to the present state of affairs over the past fourty years. Any more vehicles on the narrow roads approaching the airport [from every direction] and the whole of the area will seize up with traffic jams. Not good for other local busineses or residents. Major new roads and rail links, however desirable, are unlikely, due to the capital investment required. The airport owners are not likely to provide the muti-million pound investment required when it is likely that they are only in it for the 'short haul'.

I am no big fan of Doncaster but it is a superb airfiield in terms of its physical characteristics, spacious terminal areas etc; has bags of room for expansion, and needs only a good road connection to the motorway [the motorway being considerably closer than its LBA counterpart].

LBA is pretty shambolic these days and loathed as I am to admit it, has probably reached its zenith when green issues, climate matters, and the continued opposition [prevalent for well over fourty years] are all considered. Remember it was Leeds Council who opposed development for over twenty years, in the days when they were share holders!! Their recent stance in unsurprising.

Sorry to be so negative but I suspect the realistic truth. I hope I am wrong!
Helen

[wawkrk]

Helen, you may be right to certain extent but, you cannot round up all the pax and send them to DSA. They fly from their preferred airport.
People make airports not runways.
Many runways are on high ground, Johannesburg springs to mind at 6000ft.
Bristol, slightly less than LBA.Luton also quite high.BHX runway same direction as LBA. I could go on.
Why do you think Flybe have just announced LBA-GWK and not DSA - GWK
What you have said is not new. The fact is,LBA is here to stay love it or leave it. The fact that DSA has more runway does not help. Stansted has more runway than DSA but it is difficult to attract long haul flights.
This point is complete rubbish from the spin doctors.
Long haul flights do not mean lots of 747's. Most long haul these days are on twin engined aircraft like the 757/767.
EMA has a runway like DSA and it is the same there.
The runway at DSA is not long enough for unrestricted long haul.
LBA is shambolic because the councillors who rejected the current extension, are the same ones who created this mess. Now they are saying they are not responsible for the road network and the airport must pay.Beyond belief.
Another case of Yorkshire Backward.

[682ft AMSL]

Green issues, climate change and local resident opposition are hardly unique to LBA. Unless there is a unilateral, UK wide policy of surpressing demand for air travel then making judgements from a climate change / green perspective about one airport in isolation is pointless. The demand will simply displace to other airports. Time and time again we've seen that if you squeeze the balloon at LBA (delays to runway extension, night flying caps etc) the demand pops back up at MAN.

So the choice is to either artifically "cap" demand at LBA through some sort of planning mechanism - either refusing the terminal planning application or pegging passenger limits to road/bus/rail improvements - in which case the excess demand will have no choice but to displace West across the M62.

Or, you give the airport the freedom to operate as a commercial business and you give the airlines and passengers free choice about where they want to fly from. If LBA is commercially not viable due operational issues or too troublesome to reach from a passenger perspective, then the growth won't materialise anyway.

In truth, the verdict of the planning office was not one of rejection, it was one of broad support - as reported in some of the less tabloid interpretations of last week's meeting. They obviously want more detail in terms of the transport support the airport will provide and no doubt they will want to hear what their colleagues elsewhere in the council will be doing too on the matter. It's probably a bit early at this stage to suggest there isn't a way forward with the matter.

[wawkrk]

Surely if you restricted or capped the growth,this would deter airlines from creating a base at LBA and some may even pull out.
This would be like a lethal injection.

[Frankfurt_Cowboy]

Well it seems that Ryanair and Flybe who both made a big deal about wanting to base there have been deterred, wonder why that is??

[Going loco]

errr....the economy

[BigT2207]

How much would a rail link cost?
Lets say for arguments sake it is £20 Million.
where would that Money come from

Bridgepoint
WYPTE
Leeds City Council
Bradford City Council
Wakefield City Council
Kirklees Council
Northern Rail/Network Rail
Yorkshire Forward
British Parliament
European Parliament


If each paid towards the building of a rail link it would ease a lot of worrys. Also people living in the Otley,and pool area s could use the train to commute to Leeds which in turn will free up the roads.


Trouble by the time they decide to build the rail link the price would have doubled or even trebled.

[Runway 32/14]

A very fair point indeed..if they equal out the cost between themselves, then we would all win and benefit from it!!!!! but the rail company could fund the full works....look at Birmingham, they are having a new railway station built near the airport, and the rail company is paying for it...maybe we could get some lottory funding or some help from the European Government!!!!!

[Runway 32/14]

Whats all this environmental impact nonsense anyway....if the people in charge do decide to "cap" passanger numbers from Leeds to cut down on rail...road..and car numbers....then surley these people will only have to travel further to fly to their chosen destination....thus impacting further on the environment because they have to travel further to get to where they are "able" to fly from, which of course means further damage to the environment.....this all leads onto a knock on effect, i.e the more people using the motorway network, more Co2...more vehicle on the roads=more road works= lane closures=delays......surely with all this in mind, we need to get the road and rail links in at Leeds NOW....and it needs doing properly the first time!!!! Ohh yes and a runway extension would be benefitial.....

[Andy_S]

How much would a rail link cost?
Lets say for arguments sake it is £20 Million.

You must be kidding! Try multiplying by 5, more likely 10......

look at Birmingham, they are having a new railway station built near the airport

Birmingham have had a railway station near the airport for a long time. It's called Birmingham International, it also serves the NEC, and - conveniently - it's on a major inter-city railway route.

Whats all this environmental impact nonsense anyway

It's about much more than CO2 emissions. It's about tearing down peoples homes. It's about putting down extensive new transport infrastructure in a developed area. It's about bulldozing the local topography. It's about how the quality of life of local people will be compromised by more rail and road traffic.

At what point will you accept that the ability to handle more flights is outweighed by the financial and environmental cost of developing the airport.

[Runway 32/14]

Green light for Birmingham expansion

April 16, 2009

Solihull Council has given the go-ahead to extend the runway at Birmingham International Airport by 400 metres, The Birmingham Mail reports.

The decision will allow the airport to add new long-haul services to destinations in Asia and North America, significantly benefiting the local economy.

In addition to expanding the airport’s route network, councillors said local businesses will receive an “immediate boost” from new development contracts.

okay it's not a new station..but look at the money!!!
What’s more, the upgrade comes as Network Rail released funds for the £600 million New Street Station project – one of the West Midlands’ largest ever transport upgrades.

Peter Mathews, president of Black Country Chamber of Commerce, told The Birmingham Mail that both projects would have a positive impact on “regional confidence and the economy,” creating hundreds of jobs in the design and construction sector. “But we’ll see the real benefits once it is completed,” he added. “With the West Midlands having greater and easier access to the rest of the world, there will be real benefits to international trade.”

Solihull Council also pledged to limit night-time flights and minimise noise pollution levels, in recognition of concerns raised by environmental campaigners.

[Andy_S]

New Street station is in central Birmingham. Nothing, whatsoever, to do with the airport. And it's not a new station, but an extensive redevelopment of an existing one.

[Runway 32/14]

My point been..is the massive Network and rail expansion, this must have a positive knock on effect for the Airport!!

[Strelnikov]

The additional platform at Manchester airport cost £15m.

A heavy rail line from Horsforth would need some challenging engineering so it won't come cheap.

There was nothing in the Regional Funding Allocation programme for Yorkshire and Humber for 2006/07 to 2015/16.

The most likely (but still unlikely) scheme would be a "tram-train" peeling off at Horsforth.

The now irrelevant Masterplan (isn't it?) had dreams of a heavy rail line linking the airport to Horsforth and Guiseley in proposals up to 2016.

[Runway 32/14]

And they still might get a "heavy rail line" as long as the finances are in place.....


Better still lets close down LBA and start from scratch with a brand new one...purpose built for all heavy aircraft to be able to use it.....the biggest and best airport with the best road and rail links....and let us build it..where nobody can complain about trafic or noise........(Yeah right)

[leeds-bradford]

Was at LBA yesterday:
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/aky705/DSC00918.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/aky705/DSC00914.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/aky705/DSC00915.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/aky705/DSC00915.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/aky705/DSC00917.jpg
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/aky705/DSC00920.jpg

[al446]

then surley these people will only have to travel further to fly to their chosen destination

I have used LBA quite a few times, I live equidistant from LBA, MAN & LPL so I am in your catchment area. I find it an absolute pain in the bum to get to LBA so the flights have to be ULTRA cheap to attract me as LPL is a doddle to get to, car parking cheaper and a better experience. I can do MAN by (cheap) train. Soa part of your argument falls down, not all of it.

To develop LBA to be far more user friendly and make it a major player would take way more than either the owning company, local council or Regional DA could throw at it. Previous posters have pointed out the difficulties but if you want to keep your head in the sand, OK.

Just be satisfied you have a regional airport on your doorstep.

[Runway 32/14]

quote:
Previous posters have pointed out the difficulties but if you want to keep your head in the sand, OK.

Just be satisfied you have a regional airport on your doorstep.


Hey...there is no need for your patronising comments.....you ought to be grateful that you are in equal travelling distance from Manchester Liverpool and Leeds..

I am not saying that LBA should be a major player..i am saying that it is about time it was allowed to move into the 21st century....even without further expansion or increased passanger figures....LBA needs an improoved road system and a rail link!!!! What is wrong with that!!!!

[Flying Yorkshireman]

Some recent posts reminded me of the old days and the fact that the readership covers a wide range of ages. Not everyone appreciates the variety of airlines and aircraft that have used the airport in the past.

I used to be quite an enthusiast around the time of the runway extension and took quite a number of pictures. I was inspired to put a number of them on the link below. I hope that they are of interest. Some, but not all, have been published elsewhere before.

Please bear in mind that pre-digital images didn't carry date details, so I may be a year or so out with some of the captions. If anyone remembers details more clearly than me, let me know!

Thanks to one or two friends who supplied me with pictures when I couldn't be around and to members of ATC past and present who made it possible to capture some images from interesting locations.

I have many more pictures that I could add if there is sufficient interest, but the highlights have probably been included.

Regards,

FY

LBA Nostalgia :: Fotopic.Net (http://leedsbradfordnostalgia.fotopic.net/c1683401.html)

[norjet806]

Flying Yorkshireman

Just looked at your LBA Nostalgia site, Brilliant stuff, thanks for sharing, please add more if you get the chance!

[Runway 32/14]

Nice one Richard...brilliant pictures, i love them!!

[wawkrk]

Wonderful shots.I think LBA was one of the few airports to have 2 Concordes parked up overnight.

[Runway 32/14]

It does make you think about the future of our beloved Airport....
will Leeds/Bradford Airport still be here in 20 years time!!!!
I am sure it will be, due to the continued growth in population and the simple fact the more people are living longer and healthier lives...but will we see growth within our airport, will she be allowed to grow with the growth in population!!!!!
Maybe even a new airport could be built (subject to a dozen or so complaints) LBA does need to spread her wings..it doesnt matter about those "green people" or local residents..the simple fact remains....increased population, increased imagration and increased tourism.....new homes will be built and new roads will be made...and people will still want to fly from there "local airport"...
I look forward to the next 20 years (i hope)

[Flying Yorkshireman]

Many thanks for the kind words about my pictures; it has made my efforts of last weekend and 25 years ago seem worthwhile!

Given the apparent interest, I will add some more pictures over the next few days. As previously stated, I think that I have already included the highlights, but I still have a few alternative views of 747s, TriStars and Concordes, plus shots of lesser aircraft operated by other airlines at the time.

I will try to get more pictures on the site by the end of the weekend.

Thanks again for the positive comments.

Now where's that loft ladder?

Regards,

FY

[harrogate]

Saw a Wizzair machine going into LBA at 7:40am yesterday on the way to work. What's all that about?

Also, on the way home tonight there was a Jet2 757 on the turning loop with a ladder truck up and front doors open. Anyone know the problem?

[scamptonboy]

The Wizz was a diversion from Liverpool due to fog.

The 757 in the loop was there for engine runs.

Scamps

[backtrack_32]

Flying Yorkshireman, Have you got any pics which show the terminal building, airside and landside so we can see how much it has changed?

Thanks in advance!

[Helen49]

Wawkrk..........
Sorry, delayed response......just to clear up a couple of my earlier points!

I am not opposed to LBA, far from it. It is my local airport. However the purpose of my post was to add what I perceive as realism to the comments.

I appreciate that it is one of the best sited airports in the UK in terms of proximity to its catchment, however the cost of making significant changes to the geography of the airfield and the geography of its surface connections [dual carriageways & rail links] will prove to be prohibitive. The present and forseeable state of UK finances only exacerbates the situation and renders further significant development improbable.

H49

[Runway 32/14]

I see the "Green Squad" are at LBA today protesting about any further growth or expansion!!!!
They were heard saying and i quote:" If the airport can expand without creating further C02 levels, then we are all for seeing the airport expand"!!!! how the hell does that happen.....

I wonder how many of these protesters drove to the airport...i bet non of them walked or cycled!!!:}