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19th Mar 2010, 11:07
At least you know what in particular you need to improve the most on.

I went fairly well on the instrument comprehension test, got up to about question 52 from memory. One thing you should do is to take a really good look at the layout of the instruments in the example question just so you don't spend too much time in the test trying to decipher the poorly printed labels.

Heres some of the resources I used to revise:

(some of the questions in this test are really similar to our tests, especially the aviation math ones)

The link posted by rotor11 is another really good one I used (Theres a really good method for solving speed distance and time questions)

Another good one is the "ARCO Military Flight Aptitude Testing" book which you should be able to find for free on the internet as a pdf file, if you can't find it or it doesn't work just tell me and I'll send it to you. The aircraft orientation questions are really good because the dodgy images are just like the ones in the real test. Only some of the material in this one is relevant.

APST IPAS (http://www.nitex.nl/apst/)

Also have a quick look at some photos of macchi's, from memory the aircraft silhoutte is that of a macchi (ex RAAF and RAN training jet)

When are you re-sitting the testing?
coolmanc172, my guess is probably not although they might pay careful attention to this in particular.

We'll see what some of the others have to say...

Captain Sand Dune
20th Mar 2010, 00:35

All PSA are interested in is your total hours and recency. These are used to determine whether you are placed in the advanced or basic group. There is no NAV content in the flying you will be doing at Tamworth, it's all basic GF.

20th Mar 2010, 10:38
With respect to the speed tests, when you start, go through and do all the questions that you know first, then go back and have a go at the ones you are not sure about/need to do some working. Pretty obvious but I'm sure it has caught people out in the past.

22nd Mar 2010, 12:58
I have a question!:eek:

I've been told to expect to be on a FSP on the June-July holidays but have also been told that I have an OSB for ACO(My third preference) these holidays in april.

I've gone through the vast amount of material posted in this thread but can't seem to find an answer. Do I attend an OSB for each of my three preferences or only the two services which for which my preferences are for(RAAF & RAN) or maybe just the two roles (Pilot RAAF & RAN and ACO RAAF) applyed for?

Is this a typical situation?


PS. Good luck with your Spec. Testing Ed:ok:

23rd Mar 2010, 04:02
Hey team, anyone be joining me for FSP 17th April - 1st May?

Got the call not long ago, at the moment I'm both absolutely stoked and packing it haha :)

23rd Mar 2010, 05:46
have a question!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

I've been told to expect to be on a FSP on the June-July holidays but have also been told that I have an OSB for ACO(My third preference) these holidays in april.

I've gone through the vast amount of material posted in this thread but can't seem to find an answer. Do I attend an OSB for each of my three preferences or only the two services which for which my preferences are for(RAAF & RAN) or maybe just the two roles (Pilot RAAF & RAN and ACO RAAF) applyed for?

Is this a typical situation?

As far as i know its per role.

23rd Mar 2010, 07:09
Congrats and good luck, THG.

I just came back a few days ago, but unfortunately don't have any advice I can offer aside from what is already offered in this thread. Its about as good as you'll get without giving away the secrets we were all told not to divulge, but I'll say this though: its harder, more stressful and far more fun than I'd ever expected. Amazing two weeks.

23rd Mar 2010, 09:46
Thanks MudRat, how did you go on screening? It came as a big shock today so it was awesome news to hear... sounds like I have my work cut out for me :ok:

23rd Mar 2010, 10:56
Hi All,
My gosh this thread is long and full of great info!
Was just seeing if anyone here has recently been through PSA. I've completed Assessment Day and been recommended for Pilot and ACO. So i'm looking to get up-to-date information about PSA. I've only a few motorised flying hours under my belt so i'm working on getting more. I'm currently brushing up on basic flying maths (ie knots, distance, speed etc). But is there anything I can do to improve my overall rank?
Would appreciate any assitance and look forward your advice!

24th Mar 2010, 05:15
I was one of the six people of our group of nine to be recommended, so now I spend my days sitting beside the phone waiting for the call that I hope is imminent ;)

24th Mar 2010, 07:26
Congrats Mudrat!

Dilmah G
24th Mar 2010, 09:18
Seconded mate. :)

24th Mar 2010, 10:19
Well done Mudrat. I hear Raaf offers are out mid April/May, not sure about Navy though, think it's later than that but they are pretty full at the moment but good luck dude. If it's Army u want than I hope u are under 92cm sitting height! That 's what just killed me.:{

25th Mar 2010, 06:35
Yeah I was already pretty sure I was out of the running for Army, but it was confirmed in my OSB - I exceed the max seating height. Its a bit of a disappointment seeing as Army takes so many pilots each year. As for Navy, they'll only take a handful (half dozen or less, I've been told) this year, just like the year previous and so on.

25th Mar 2010, 10:26
The Army pool is quite empty now I'd say. I haven't heard from anyone that this hasn't affected. This is a response from one of my fellow flight screeners who, sadly, didn't get recommended but is so damn short he'd walk it in! ;
"What I'd like to know is how the #$&! 8cm is going to save your life when you hit the deck in a 3 tonne machine that is traveling at many meters per second. Good F#%&!ng luck! "

27th Mar 2010, 03:43

I was told that they were having problems with taller people in the kiowa for years; having to fly with a tilted heads and such. There were apparently incidents were people would pass kiowa conversion, then go on to fail heli tactics, and to get out of their ROSO, they claimed they had sore backs.

27th Mar 2010, 04:23
That may be, but 92cm equates to a very small person.

29th Mar 2010, 11:54
Great forum.
I have several questions I hope someone can answer for me please:

1. The ADF site says the program is divided into both basic and advanced courses for flight screening. Do you do one or the other and how is this calculated?

2. I am interested to find out the type of aircraft used for the flight screening at Tamworth? Do they use the CT-4, or the CAP-10 or both? Do they use one for the basic and one for the advanced course etc?

Any responses will be greatly appreciated.

29th Mar 2010, 12:25
Great forum.
I have several questions I hope someone can answer for me please:

1. The ADF site says the program is divided into both basic and advanced courses for flight screening. Do you do one or the other and how is this calculated?

2. I am interested to find out the type of aircraft used for the flight screening at Tamworth? Do they use the CT-4, or the CAP-10 or both? Do they use one for the basic and one for the advanced course etc?

Any responses will be greatly appreciated.

Hope these answers help ya mate

1. Basically you'll be assigned a course depending on how many civilian flying hours you have. Last time I checked the split was at around the 40 hour mark (May have changed). The main differences in the two are mainly focused around the aerobatics component of the course. People with fewer hours are hardly expected to be able to perform "advanced" aerobatic sequences compared to someone who is already able to demonstrate a healthy knowledge of General Flying. With that said there are other minor differences in the rate of progress for the advanced course.

2. You will fly both CAP-10 and CT-4. The first component of the course is centered around general flying, starting from the basic straight and level flying, moving all the way into circuits. This is achieved on the CT-4. The second part of the course is focused around aerobatic flying. The aim is being able to demonstrate hand/foot/eye co-ordination. Obviously flawless aerobatics aren't the main aim of the course, but a rate of learning that meets the ADF's requirements for training.

Hope it helps you out and all the best.

Edited: Me fail english? Thats unpossible

29th Mar 2010, 14:23
Hey all,

I've read through the thread and can't seem to find the answer to this one...

Going by the schedule, it seems there are two flight screenings happening at certain times....is this correct?

Just wondering because I would have thought PSA would have at least a days break from applicants to prepare for the next group...I guess not though.

29th Mar 2010, 14:57
I must be bored because i'm still awake and posting on this forum


PSA run 2 week flight screening courses at staggered intervals. Meaning they'll start one course and a week later start another one. They've got pretty good support staff there doing the day to day admin side of things whilst the QFI's focus on the pilot training. They have enough staff to run two courses concurrently and all the paper work is done back of house.

Ultimately its not that a big of a process. A QFI will score you on your flight according to how well you went (The score is usually a measurement based on an accepted base level. If you score well then you're meeting the average) and then at the end of the fortnight sit down with the OSB and discuss your results in a round table discussion.

With the amount of QFI's and support staff they have working for every course the process is not that difficult or long.

Having said that, they do take time off with courses to catch up on paper work/individual currencies.

29th Mar 2010, 21:51
Thanks Spacemantan for your answers I really appreciate it.

So just to clarify the last part. Even if your in the advanced course (due to having civilian hours, which I do) you will still do the first part in a ct-4 and then do the second part in a cap 10 and do more advanced aerobatics for that second section?

thanks again

29th Mar 2010, 23:14
Ultimately yes. The main difference from memory is that the advanced course will do less time in the CT-4 doing basic GF compared to the basic course. Both courses will do aerobatics but the advanced course will learn a few extra ones mainly because they are already profficient with the basic parts of GF

30th Mar 2010, 03:29
Thanks again Spacemantan

30th Mar 2010, 10:26
Thanks space, thought so just thought I would check. I would imagine flying everyday with a bunch of rookies would get a bit tedious :}

30th Mar 2010, 11:26
Hoping someone can answer my questions regarding aptitude testing at the YOU day.

I know some aptitude tests (ones I have found online) include reading data from tables and graphs but the "guide to aptitude testing for joining the ADF" sample questions dont show any of this style. Can some one please tell me if they test this graph and table stuff or not please?

Also, the "guide" says that there are additonal tests to general ability and mathematical ability for pilots-"testing for pilot","testing for officer entry". Are these tests the personallity type or is it more aptitude or just the wombat style (keep ball in square hand eye stuff) tests?

Thanks again and keep up this great thread (hope one day I will be the one answering the questions...hehe)

30th Mar 2010, 11:45
Hey Jo

YOU session is pretty basic. If you can do alright at school you should be fine. It's like an IQ test eg. They give you a word, you pick A,B,C or D depending on which one is similar or the opposite etc. Basic maths like X buys 6 lollies at 25c each, gives Y amount, how much change. The hardest maths on there wasn't too taxing (think it was pythagoras theorem), they're not trying to see if you can only get the hard ones right, so just plug away at them all, skip and come back to any if you need to. The guide they give you is pretty spot on, and I didn't have any table/graph questions from memory.

30th Mar 2010, 11:58
Cheers oneflewnorth, I am greatful for your help. Well in that case I wont stress too hard but just keep nutting away at practice questions of the styles discussed by your self (and the info given by adf).

Thanks again.

3rd Apr 2010, 01:40
I hear Raaf offers are out mid April/May

G'day cj0203, any idea of other offer dates or if this a regular time? Just trying to get an idea of how many intakes there are a year.
Thanks mate.

3rd Apr 2010, 01:52
I have it on good authority that the selection dates are a tad later than specified above. No idea how many per year, but I'm interested to know. I thought there would probably be two per year for RAAF DEO and one for ADFA.

3rd Apr 2010, 02:06
I have it on good authority that the selection dates are a tad later than specified above. No idea how many per year, but I'm interested to know. I thought there would probably be two per year for RAAF DEO and one for ADFA

Lets say an average course number of about 24 at BFTS with a new RAAF/RAN Alpha course every 12 weeks... Thats 4 courses a year which means about 96 people, plus whatever number of RAAF/RAN ended up with the primarily army Bravo courses. So lets go with something like 120 people? I'm gonna go with about half ADFA half DEO (I can't back those numbers up so don't get upset if i'm wrong). That gets reduced to 49 - 65 a year at the end of the sausage factory through various reasons... Mostly people failing.

The RAAF will always intake the same amount of people and if the requirement for people is less than usual they'll just scrub more to only get the cream of the crop but the bare minimum is 49. For DEO they'll usually intake in October, April with a smattering of people in between. Its not odd to have OTS courses with 20+ pilot candidates on it, nor is it odd to have courses with only 1 or 2.

Problem at the moment is demand is quite small within the ADF. There isn't the healthy speparation that used to happen so unfortunately there are too many O3 O4's clogging up the shute.

Hope thats some usefull information for ya. Fresh from Defence Recruiting and OTS/BFTS/2FTS

Edited: IOT add extra info and fix the numbers

3rd Apr 2010, 05:09
That sounds like a seriously flawed statement. Recruiting have just told me that if there are less slots, they weed more people out at their end through minimum education requirements/medicals/interviews etc. Surely if you are meeting the requirements/standards during flight training, they shouldn't be scrubbing you?

Numbers at BFTS now are exactly the same they have been for the past few years... But the requirement for pilots has decreased... It would seem that my above statement is correct but I could be wrong.

In 2007, a BFTS course made it through with zero scrubbings and the average pass out rate was rather low. Recently BFTS courses have been decimated to the extent where in some cases fewer than half the original course make it to 2FTS. Which once again adds creedence to my previous statement. And once again I could be wrong, could be that the standard of people going through BFTS has declined.

Could be very many different factors involved.

But the intake has been rather steady for a while now, yet the output has dropped because the services don't need as many pilots.

DFR don't adjust their requirements either. Medical standards, Aptitude testing and interviews have always remained the way they are. It is the respective Directorate of Personnel and PSA's responsibility to decide how many people go on to commence pilot training. DFR just provide the meat at the beginning of the chain and the above agencies are responsible for quality control (Continuing with the sausage factory metaphore)

WRT Sandunes post: Absolutely 100% correct. Times have changed from those days but that doesn't mean the services can't change their standards in order to adjust the output. Happens all the time depending on demand.

3rd Apr 2010, 08:16
That statement is no longer on their website, and that unfortunately, is holding me up right now. Last year the PSA said I met the minimum educational requirements. This year DFR are questioning whether or not I do, as policy "may have changed". Why has it changed? They have the same amount of candidates applying, but less positions to fill.

Fair enough question, and i'll be honest... my knowledge on the inner workings of DFR is not total. As to why they have changed the minimum requirements.. I cannot answer that. It may be because, as you've stated, they're trying to lower input from their end. But from my knowledge of DFR, the medical/fitness/aptitude requirements are determined by the relevant Personnel agencies of the ADF. Ultimately means DFR have no say... They just provide the means for testing/recruiting.

I suppose it is a little nitpicky of me to point that out. :ugh:

From my experience though, There are just as many pilot candidates going through the system as there ever have been, but the output has been lowered somewhat.

I agree with some of what you've said, but not all of it. However, I concede that you know more about it than I do.

Please don't mistake my posts as an attack on you or your knowledge.... I will readily admit that I don't have all the answers or knowledge on how DFR/PSA/ADF work things out. All I do know is that it is a big issue within the ADF pilot community... And my knowledge stems from that... I'm just trying to help :)

3rd Apr 2010, 10:56
My experience with DFR was a long time ago, when they had JOES days and the like... It was incredibly painful.

The new DFR process is alot less painful but none the less is definately not perfect. I agree wholeheartedly that representation from the pilot community is very lacking at DFR and that none truths are definately the norm. Unfortunately the NCO/SNCO's represent the more popular jobs in the ADF (Infantry, Clerks, Logistical persons etc etc). There are a few dedicated staff out there who genuinly enjoy their position and will do anything for applicants. Unfortunately posting cycles means it can be very random at times... Maybe the ADF should introduce recruiter as a permanent position?

Don't get me started on Case Managers...

The problem at the moment is the civilian/defence relationship I think. The military generally speaking have a general knowledge about the ADF, but don't want to be case managers... Case managers don't want/need to know the general knowledge about the ADF, all they care about is processing paper work. Its a bit of a problem.

The ADF want to fix this problem but contractually speaking they're hands are tied.

Personally... I wish you all the best in your application and the best advice I can give you is to constantly annoy your case manager by following up your application. The squeaky wheel gets the grease... I hope this post prompts a flood of phone calls to Case managers :E

3rd Apr 2010, 11:15
Just to put a stop to something here.
Once your at BFTS/2FTS, you will pass/fail on the standard required.
How many pilots the Raaf requires has nothing to do with you passing/failing once your in the system.
It might just mean you have to wait longer for a conversion off course, but by then who cares!
You make the grade, you pass the course, The grading doesn't change

3rd Apr 2010, 11:22
Pilot intake for the ADF was increased mid last decade to get ready for the new aircraft that were supposed to be delivered. The "required" output was also changed to reflect this. However, recently the output has been decreased but intake the same.

Are you saying that the quality of pilot coming through BFTS and 2FTS has decreased? If so do you think its a reflection of the reduction in hours students get during training?

This is in no way an attack on you, I've been hearing quite differently from you for a while now and want to know your honest opinion.

3rd Apr 2010, 11:26

Just bought Biggles' Big Adventures so i'm a fan of your nickname :ok:

3rd Apr 2010, 12:03

goota agree with ozbiggles. Once your in if you met the grade you pass. As I said some time ago the numbers coming into recruiting are down to what they were 3-5-10 years ago. Simply, the more fish you net the choosier you can be with what you pick out. If you only net a small amount you have got to take what you have caught.

What reduction in hours? The change at BFTS has increased the hours at 2FTS. Or do you mean because of the change at BFTS (see 1FTS hours) that trainees are having a more difficult time at 2FTS

3rd Apr 2010, 12:49
G'day Spaceman
Not a go at you at all. Just wanted to make sure people understand once your in, the pass/mark doesn't change based on how many pilots the Raaf needs. As finestkind says, any changes in output required would be dealt at the input stage ie at selection.
If there is not to much demand at the other end it just means you will wait longer for a conversion and there may not be many choices for the instructors to send you to.
I have never said anything different. There are a number of user names similar to mine which may be the cause of some confusion.
As for a reduction in quality, I'd have to say no. The 'assessment system' at 2fts is very accurate, as close as you get to 100%.(note, not perfect but very good)
Helmet and flak vest on But I would say no one who has been scrubbed didn't deserve it as long as their instructor was doing their job. Many have gone on from it to be outstanding pilots elsewhere and many now check ex mil guys into their RPT futures. A lesson for young guys, never dish another pilot. One day he will probably be checking you!

3rd Apr 2010, 13:35
But undeniably the "grade" so to speak has changed over recent years due to the decline in hours. Surely students aren't expected to meet the same standard as those who completed their training with greater hours? I'm pretty sure it used to be upward of 100hrs at BFTS where as now its down to 65... Can't remember the figures for 2FTS, last I heard there was going to be a small increase in hours for an extra component.. but overall there has been a reduction in hours.

One of the reasons for the reduction in hours, apart from cost cutting, was to get more people through in order to fill the expected vacancies in the upcoming acquisitions. Unfortunately Wedgetail was late, and the KC-30 is still a bit away... Super Hornet just arrived and JSF keeps getting pushed back. So there are now a large number of post wings pilots who are in virtual limbo because of the wait between 2FTS and conversions. Last time I spoke to someone in this boat it was a 18 month wait.

Sure a fix on the supply end will fix the problem... but that will take a year or two to trickle down towards the end. The quicker fix that i've heard is for the training units to be a little bit more fussy... so to speak.

Thats what i've heard, so thats what i've been saying.

I don't necessarily agree with the way things are happening but I don't make the decisions....

4th Apr 2010, 01:24
Still disagree spaceman.

Why has the grade changed. The BFTS syllabus has reverted(effectively) to the old 1FTS one whilst the 2FTS syllabus has (effectively) returned to the previous one. Little reduction in overall hours.

As far as meeting the same standards, well we have a slightly different type of aircraft to fly compared to 30 years ago. I agree that the ADF needs to look at its training system as not much has changed in, ohhh, how long ( apart from lets go to straight through training back to two types, what 3- 4 times) 40 plus years. Is the way we fight the same as how we did in Korea?
But I digress, I would suggest that standard is as high as ever as can be seen by the bleating from the knucklehead world that they are not getting the numbers they want. Hark back to my "less coming in smaller net analogy"

4th Apr 2010, 04:53
Can't say i'm familiar with the old 1FTS syllabus so my knowledge of past requirements and grades is quite limited... therefore i wont comment except to say that that is an interesting point.

What i've heard from those bleating nuckleheads is that the quality is not as good. My impression from discussions i've had with those that care is that the number of students going on to 79 sqn are just the same as they have always been (in recent years anyways), and in fact there has recently been a small backlog of students post 2FTS waiting for Hawk conversion... but the quality has dipped. Hence why not enough are making it through to 76 and thence to 2OCU.

I'm actually thinking of creating a new thread to discuss this, because I don't think talking about the various problems with the training system is going to do alot for people wanting to know more about Flight Screening and PSA in this thread.

4th Apr 2010, 06:58
Fair enough but how can you comment on the grades if you are unsure of what they once were.

Also lends weight to the agrument about the smaller the catch in the net the less likely you will be able to pick enough potential knuckleheads. However that does not mean the standards have lowered. All it means is that the quality does not have as many shiny jet jockies. All they are doing is sending the same number across and as such less are likely to make it through. However you can even question my statement about the quality by throwing in this. I have no doubt that there are a number of knucklehead candidates that get to 79SQN or further down track and start to realise, gee if only I'd gone C130 etc I would be logging double if not triple the hours Captain of the aircarft and actually operational as opposed to still under training, still under the pump with the possibilty of being scrubbed, well thats a motivator.

5th Apr 2010, 08:00
Hey Everybody,
This is my first post here and can I just start by saying that this thread is an absolute gold mine. So many valuable contributions for aspiring pilots like myself to absorb.

Anyways, I am in the beginning stages of the recruitment process. I have my Specific Pilot Aptitude Testing day on the 12th of April (1 week away). I am fairly confident with my aptitude skills although I'm not here discuss that.

I'm here in hope that someone with a good understanding of DFR can answer an important question for me that I have been receiving mixed answers on. It is in relation to my Medical History.

A short while ago I received a shoulder injury which required X rays and a sling for 2 weeks. I received Centrelink Benefits for a couple weeks due to not being able to work and I used Medicare for the X rays. X rays reveal a minor irregularity with the shoulder (in terms of the collarbone)

but it is important that I point out that the shoulder has returned to 100% and I have full motion.

Getting to the point, I am worried about mentioning this problem in my Medical History Questionnaire as I believe I will be graded as a CLASS 4 regardless of how much I explain that it is no longer a problem.

I'm just looking for some advice on what I should do at assessment day in relationship to my medical questionnaire. I don't want to lie about anything and am generally a very honest person although I also don't want to be knocked back for a reason I know is unfair. Does anybody know if DFR will check medical history through a government database system or do they rely on the answers you give in the Medical History Questionnaire, and then request records if there seems to be a problem?

I have no problem performing physical tasks such as push ups, or anything for that matter (I swim 5km per week, and work out with weights also with no problems).

A BIG thankyou in advance for anybody that can help me! :D

5th Apr 2010, 08:38
Hmm yeah that's a tough one. I'm kind of in the same boat. I put something on mine I wish I hadn't because I know it isn't a problem at all however it will hold up my application or even void it. Every time I think about it I wish I didn't put it on the questionnaire just in case. It's up to you mate, as far as I know they don't check databases or anything but if it does become a problem during training and It's found you withheld info you'll be discharged.

Maybe someone can help with mine. I had a varicose vein removed like 3 years ago, does anyone know if thats grounds for Class 4 medical? Please say no haha, stressing big time.

5th Apr 2010, 13:38

The most probable reason you are getting mixed answers from DFR, is that the only staff that are able to give advice on medical issues, are the medical staff themselves. CC's DI's and Case managers aren't legally aloud to give advice so you tend to get hazy ansers from them.

If you can prove through your GP and whatever specialist you may have seen that the arm will not create any issues during your career as an officer and a pilot then there should be no problems. The only thing I can see happening is that the ADF may want to examine the issue a little further through AVMED. This may hold up your application for a little while.

Lying on your medical questionaire is up to you but Oneflewnorth is bang on when he says that you can be discharged for it if you are discovered to have lied. Honesty is the best policy but cover your bases by providing GP's letters and maybe the opinion of a specialist.


I'm not a Dr but i just wiki'ed Varicose veins... I'm not qualified to say yes or no but as I mentioned above, cover your bases with information for DFR from GP's and specialists.

All the best to both of you! and good luck for the aptitude test BurningDesire

6th Apr 2010, 01:53
Oneflewnorth - Hey when do you find out from DFR if it will be a problem or not. To me, it doesn't sound like it should be a problem, but I don't know much about Varicose veins. So What stages are you at? Did you just have our assessment day? Are you waiting for an offer to FSP?

Spacemantan - Hey thanks for the advice and well wishes. Yeah I do realise that I would be discharged if they found out later on. I'm sure i can handle the training without it becoming a problem, but maybe there are other ways that they will find out? It's such a hard decision. I'm sure I can get GP and Specialist reports to vouch that my shoulder is ok. So I'm kind of leaning towards nominating it on my Medical but having a pile of specialist reports from many different specialists and GP's stating that it's fine.

So do you guys really think that specialist reports will really help the situation or will they still judge the situation themselves regardless?

6th Apr 2010, 04:42
Hi all,
I have a quick question I hope someone can help me with. I have read on some posts that there is "english comprehension" in the first and second aptitude tests for pilots at the YOU day. Can anyone tell me if this is just the "Foot is to Leg as Hand is to a, head. b, arm" etc type stuff or do they also involve reading passages and then deducing the most likely statement?

Thanks Jorocketoz

p.s. keep up the great forum

6th Apr 2010, 04:53
As far as med stuff goes, get advice from the med staff at recruiting. Regardless, as mentioned it is fraudulent to fail to disclose. More to the point if it means you are unsuitable now then there are many ways in which to get stuff fixed and have another go. I know of plenty of guys with niggling injuries that have, at times, seriously affected their performance. How do you come clean with that one in the middle of pilots' course! I know one guy got caught during pilot training recently - and how much do you think that held them up?! Not only did the issue need to be resolved, but there is also an investigation into why it wasnít disclosed originally...sucks to be him!

Hey Spaceman, why so dark about quality of trainees? You seem to know what you are talking about, so you would also be aware that the syllabus and number of QFIs that a trainee flies with means it has to be some serious conspiracy to get someone through under the required standard!

6th Apr 2010, 09:39
Hey Spaceman, why so dark about quality of trainees? You seem to know what you are talking about, so you would also be aware that the syllabus and number of QFIs that a trainee flies with means it has to be some serious conspiracy to get someone through under the required standard!

I really think we'll need to start a new thread to discuss this further. I'm not suggesting there is a conspiracy theory at all... I'm merely an impressionable pilot who's heard rumblings from those in ATW/ACG about quality of graduates.

Many who i've spoken to agree that there are a number of reasons for this which does include the softening of "grades" so to speak.

To a certain degree I believe it. If 2FTS's goal is provide pilots ready and able to complete OPCON, then why are there more people bombing out of conversion... I honestly cannot back any figures up because i'm just not in the know... But thats what i've heard...

Having said that though, I believe the quality of instruction at 2FTS is superb and it could simply be a case of some people falling through the cracks...

Captain Sand Dune
6th Apr 2010, 10:58
Wouldn't be anything to do with the 2 - 6 month delay between finishing BFTS and starting 2FTS, and the (up to) 18 month delay to start an OPCON post wings now wouldn't it?:hmm:

7th Apr 2010, 00:36
CSD, I'm laughing reading that. It's the old Elephant in the Room that just won't go away.:D

7th Apr 2010, 07:56
So you guys all think that a couple specialist opinions and a GP report (From a CASA certified GP) will carry some weighting regarding a medical issue thats not too serious?

7th Apr 2010, 13:15
If you decide to disclose it be armed with anything you can to prevent delays. Specialist reports, physio reports, doc reports, notes from personal trainers/coaches you name it. You could always play down the seriousness of it to the doc at DFR :)

All I wanna do is go flying!!! It's been too long. I've got no God damn money! Donations welcome, I take all major credit cards, BPAY, bank deposit, cash and cheque...or your plane :ok:

8th Apr 2010, 09:17
Hey all,
I have posted a similar question in the past but am really interested if anyone has actually been selected and or passed for BFTS and gone onto pass and become a pilot?

I am now over 30 and am beginning my process to apply as this is always what I have wanted to do.

Any insight is appreciated.

8th Apr 2010, 12:29
Can be done mate, I was 31 at FSP, 32 at BFTS. That was a few years ago, and I'm RAN, not sure about RAAF, Captain Sand Dune could give you a more accurate, current answer.

You'll never know if you don't have a crack.

8th Apr 2010, 13:33
Yeah mate, I agree and am going to give it a shot! Was your initial choice RAN or did you want to do something else? Did your placement have anything to do with your results in FSP?

As many others, I am wanting to fly fast jets but am realistic and understand that this is one of the most competitive choices for applicants.

How did you find the whole process? Would love to get your insight as you have already completed it.

8th Apr 2010, 14:02
This may have already been addressed (57 too many pages for me) but when I went through a failure rate (2 FTS all through) of about 40-50% was typical. I have heard it is about 10-20% now. What's changed? Or are the stats wrong?

Dilmah G
8th Apr 2010, 14:28
I'd think that what CSD was quoted as saying here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/333897-raaf-flight-screening-program-merged-55.html#post5612621), would have a little bit to do with it.

Back in the bad ol' days the CFI would scrub you just because he thought your eyes were too close together and he was in a bad mood. Today the justification and paperwork required, coupled with the lack of gumption displayed by some in charge fearing a redress means to actually suspend a poor student is a lot harder.

8th Apr 2010, 21:28

I think you answered your own question. When you went through on the all through course all suspension were at 2FTS. Now like the good old days BFTS filter for 2FTS, hence a lot are scrubbed at BFTS and therefore less % wise at 2FTS

9th Apr 2010, 04:22
Navy 1st preference, Army 2nd, RAAF N/A, as I was only interested in Helicopters.

Pros and cons about doing it at that age, cons probably outweigh the pros, PM if you have any specific questions.

9th Apr 2010, 05:48
madkeen - you probably are already aware of this but for Air Force pilot they prefer you to be under 27.5 - that being said they WILL take older applicants if they demonstrate significant potential for pilot training. In other words I would say do all you can to get your foot in the door, if you can make it to the FSP and then wow the pants off PSA, then you should have a shot I would think.

Well everyone, I went to the orthopaedic surgeon today for a professional opinion and he said he would put in writing that although there is a minor bone irregularity where it has healed, he considers the injury as 'Fully Healed' and 'Unlikely to cause any limitations'. Not getting my hopes up just yet but *just maybe* I might receive a class 2 medical?

I've decided to go by the book and nominate it on my medical history questionnaire because that is the right thing to do.

Have my pilot aptitude test on Monday, have been getting stuck into a lot of maths and instruments. Anybody got any friendly final tips for me?

Hopefully I can gain a high band bass which will help overshadow the previous shoulder injury? Anyways I will let you all know how I go next week.

Word of advice to people thinking of joining the Defence Force - if you skateboard - stop! :}

9th Apr 2010, 07:47

Good luck with the shoulder, I don't think it will be a problem if you can just prove to them you can use it without any issues. I would let them know, which I did when I was in your position (sort of). I had a somewhat shattered finger which caused the tendon to detach and brought a third of the joint with it :} Required over 12 months of casting and none use of it, then screws ect....not quite as serious as a shoulder but I think you should be fine.

Oh by the way, not trying to say a finger is anything big, I would have had them cut it off if needed, just saying the docs are pretty understanding with injuries I found.

9th Apr 2010, 07:48
Hey guys,

I know there is a lot of information around assessment day and YOUsession, however i was wondering if anyone has done their additional testing for Pilot/ACO/ATC? Or if anyone has information regarding this. I know it will be around hand eye coordination, instrument comprehension...but other than that not to sure. If anyone has any information I would appreciate it...


9th Apr 2010, 12:58
Does anyone know much about the company PATS (Pilot Aptitude Training Systems), is it legit or just a scram??

10th Apr 2010, 05:48
Hi all, I have heard that in the second maths test you do at the YOU day (the pilot specific one) there may be questions on finding derivatives. Can anyone tell me if this is so as it seems like complex maths for this type of test? Has anyone done it and did it have those sorts in it? Derivatives as in dy/dx etc. Also are there quadratic equations in it?
Cheers Jorocketoz

10th Apr 2010, 05:55
Hi mvdia1,
In answer to your question about the pilot specific test I believe that it includes a more advanced maths test. I think they test things not only but including trig (one of em does I hear) including SOHCAHTOA ( I would assume only on right angle 30,60 and 45 triangles as its no calculator testing). and Perhaps quadratic equations and finding derivaties but im not sure on the last two, still trying to get clarity. Perhaps someone else reading this who has done it can inform us better.

Best of luck

10th Apr 2010, 16:15

Been a while since doing the testing, but the maths stuff was all distance, speed, time stuff and multiplication/division of big numbers to test you ability to estimate. May have changed though, this was about five years ago.

PATS - That guy is an Absolute KNOB! I did his course about five years ago and i would not recommend it. If you are in Brisbane, there is a guy Named Steve Holding who does something similar, and his course was very good, i would definatley go to him over pats.

11th Apr 2010, 00:37
Thanks Tony360
A very informative response, I am very greatful.

11th Apr 2010, 04:40
Hi all,
Since I hear there are distance/time/speed questions in the test I have found a site with some simple practice questions I thought I would share for those interested in some basic practice. Hope it helps.: Speed Distance Time | OASC: RAF Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre (http://www.speeddistancetime.info/)

Not sure how close to the ones in the RAAF tests these are but perhaps someone else can let us know?

Best of luck to all

12th Apr 2010, 09:11
The site above and the RNZAF website (RNZAF - Step Up Aircrew and Officers (http://www.stepup.mil.nz/jobs-in-the-rnzaf/aptitude-tests/aircrew-officers/default.htm)) are the two that I found to be the most helpful for specialist testing. The RNZAF site offers some questions that are worded exactly the same as the ones you may find on some of the tests you do, the difference being the numbers used. Know how to do the questions on the RNZAF website and you'll be fine with that part of the testing. While you're driving around or just walking around the streets, do some times tables in your head as well to ensure your mental arithmetic is up to speed.

12th Apr 2010, 12:52
Well I had Specific Pilot Aptitude Test today in Newcastle. Started off with the Instrument Reading and then onto Aircraft Orientation. Both not very difficult. Then moved on to the raw maths and aviation maths which got pretty difficult. At this point I was pretty sure I was crash-and-burning. Then afterwards we did the hand eye coordination tests although I don't know if they count towards your results or not? Little tip for them, be easy on the joysticks, just hold them with your fingers and use slight movements (like when correcting the attitude of an airplane).

Anyways long story short after the hand eye coord. tests we waited for AGES watch the third military movie for the day when some guy at reception calls out my name. Gives me the piece of paper to say what I'm elligible for. So I ask "How did I do" to which he replied I did really really well, pass for all pilot positions within the ADF. Yes!

On a side note he said usually the test results are usually valid for one year, but because I got a good result mine are valid for 3 years. Anybody heard about this?

12th Apr 2010, 13:38

Good Job

Sounds pretty similar to my spec testing, during that aviation maths test I thought I'd messed it up real bad.

When I was sitting the co-ordination testing with the joysticks i kept on hearing a really loud banging noise from one of the other cubicles, I thought it might have been someone going a bit nuts but it turned out that one of the guys had decided that the best technique for him was to slap the sticks, and slap them bloody hard is what he did. Can't imagine what the recruiters would have said if they'd been in the room.


I really wouldn't bother with the PATS stuff, there is heaps of good practice material on the net if your motivated enough to search for it. A good start would be to read through this entire thread. Which would you rather: spend $2000 on PATS or spare an afternoon.

Anyone here been to the museum at Temora?

12th Apr 2010, 13:45
Yeah I have heard of this. I recently contacted a few people at DFR (my case manager included..) to ask about the validity of my test, and they also told me 3 years. To be honest I don't think what they have to say holds much weight. No one seems to have much interest in the finer details of the applictaion process for pilots, or any other career path for that matter. I always thought that the pilot spec testing had a 1 year 'use by' date, regardless of performance. Nonetheless it's probably best to aim to get your assesement day out of the way before a year passes...

12th Apr 2010, 13:59
Well done mate!

AlexanderB - I've been to the museum/air shows a few times. Last time I went they had Hornets down there, which was a good show. Went and saw the Sabre launch too. They've got plenty of aircraft but if you're after a full on air show look elsewhere, it's a display of old aircraft which means low G manoeuvres, great to see the planes flying though.

I've never heard a good thing about the PATS course, I think it costs even more than $2,000. I'm doing Dr Steven Holdings spec testing course on Thursday simply because I want to be as prepared as possible. It's a lot cheaper than PATS and has a good reputation. It probably isn't necessary but I'd rather float higher in the pool than lower! Has anyone done his aptitude course?

Yeah not sure about anything DFR say. Originally I was told JOES/YOU session results stay valid for three years...then 6 months haha. The maths course I've done has been approved but to be honest it wouldn't surprise me if I have to do another one :ugh:

13th Apr 2010, 01:27
No vapour off the wings but its still good to see what the RAAF has evolved from over the past century. Definately worth a look, good for meeting some interesting people.

I dropped in on my way down to Melbourne to have a look on sunday (Flying day). The sabre was easily my favorite, I had a chat to the bloke who flew it after the show, apparently he was the one who decided to bring his hornet along some time ago. I'm keeping in touch with him at the moment, he's got some really decent advice. Seems like a great guy.

I've never heard about this "3 year rule", I was always under the impression that the YOU results stand for 6 months and the Spec. Testing for one year but it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for DFR to change their rules.

If I'd heard about Dr. Steven Holdings course before my testing I might have had a look.

$2000 for a two day course seems a total rip-off, if I had that much I'd probably go for a flight in one of those Strikemasters, or just go gliding more often.

Does anyone one know what the big differences are between military and civilian flying.

13th Apr 2010, 02:54
Congratulations on your results, that is fantastic.

You mentioned that the second part got pretty hard. Can you elaborate at all on the type of questions for the maths and other areas at all? (specific stuff ie trig triangles, estimation of fractions etc?)


13th Apr 2010, 03:40
Alexander - thats pretty funny about the guy slapping the joysticks really hard - don't see how that would help at all? When we went in the girl told us that the room is right next to the girls toilets so she's asked everyone who goes in there to be really quiet (what do you girls do in there exactly to make so much noise anyways?)

On a side note I noticed that in the joystick tests I was in there for far longer than everyone else. They were all much further ahead of me I noticed at some stages. I don't think this is a bad thing because in many tasks the difficulty increases with each level and you have to see how long you can last.

Jorocketoz - I didn't encounter any trig or triangles but definately brush up on your estimations skills.

13th Apr 2010, 08:42
Cheers BurningDesire,

Haha about the toilet thing.

Nice work on the levels with the joystick, sounds like u went really well.

13th Apr 2010, 12:31
Alexander B,

There is a thread on here about the differences between Military and Civilian flying that hits most of the high points like Attitude vs Performance flying etc. And the fact that the aircraft are a platform for something else (weapons etc) vs something just to get from A to B (unless your a trashy).

But overall i think it is more of an Attitude difference in how we go about business. I heard a good statement from a QFI that sums it up pretty well - "Close enough is never ever good enough." Which anybody who has been through pilots course will tell you rings very true! Military flying is all about striving for perfection, especially if you want to fly fast Jets!

13th Apr 2010, 13:04
Cheers keenas, I'll keep it in mind.

Does anyone know much about the syllabus at Flight Screening?

I know its 6 flights in a CT-4/b and a few in a CAP-10 and two on a simulator of some sort, but what exactly is covered on the course in terms of material to learn? Is there anything in particular one can do prior to the pragram to better prepare themselves?

13th Apr 2010, 22:10
Unless you can get your hands on a copy of the current BFTS CT4 flying manual I wouldn't try to learn too much before heading to FSP. They are very specific about how to fly the aircraft and they will judge you on your ability to apply what is written in the manual in the cockpit.

Captain Sand Dune
14th Apr 2010, 01:03
know its 6 flights in a CT-4/b and a few in a CAP-10 and two on a simulator of some sort, but what exactly is covered on the course in terms of material to learn? Is there anything in particular one can do prior to the pragram to better prepare themselves?
You'll be given the appropriate information when you get there. FSP deliberately do not forward flight manuals/ mass briefings etc to candidates. That way everyone is on a level playing field.
Your ability to transfer the information imparted to you on the ground to the airborne environment in a given time period is of particular interest.
Listen, ask questions, and study!!

14th Apr 2010, 09:53
It makes sense, I guess I'll just have to wait a little longer.


15th Apr 2010, 08:19
There's a guestimator test where you're asked questions with big numbers and little decimals, ie, 5019 x .06111 - All you need to do is figure out a rough answer and then pick whichever answer is closest to your answer in the answer section

15th Apr 2010, 10:33
Zulk, cheers for the information, much appreciated.

15th Apr 2010, 14:38

I apologise if this is off topic or has been asked before, but 58 pages is a bit too much to read right now.

If I do not have 20/20 eyesight, does this mean I will not be considered at all because they will not take me for the FSP? or have I been misinformed?

Thank you in advance,

Dilmah G
15th Apr 2010, 14:48

I believe the minimum unaided visual acuity mentioned earlier in the thread is -1. If you exceed the limit, the laser eye surgery avenue is open (one which the originator the thread took, and was succesful). Pre-operative limit for laser surgery is -5 dioptres, if I remember correctly.

15th Apr 2010, 16:18

Thank you very much for you help.

Can anyone with first hand experience confirm this?


Dilmah G
15th Apr 2010, 16:28
No worries mate, my information about Laser Surgery was sourced from here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/333897-raaf-flight-screening-program-merged-53.html#post5572020), by the way. And I believe one of Hornetboy's posts contains snippets of similar information.

16th Apr 2010, 06:59

Just got the call for FSP and they confirmed im going to flightscreen on the 8th of may! Is there anyone else on here heading down at that time?

Im pumped as, and cant wait for it, time to book my aero lessons and continue studying my butt off. Good luck to everyone currently going through the selection process.


16th Apr 2010, 10:13
Congrats romper,

Thats great news mate. Best of luck for it, but from the sound of the study and aero lessons it doesnt sound like u will need it.
Let us know how it goes.

Out of interest how long ago did u do the aptitude testing? (ie time between it and getting the fsp call)


16th Apr 2010, 10:26
Thanks jorocketoz,

My timeline has been as follows,

Applied online in april 2009,
You session in june 2009,
Spec testing was sept 2009,
Assesment day dec 2009,

and now off to FSP in may 2010.

The unusually large gap between Assesment day and FSP was due to some finer issues that had to be sorted out, but the main thing is im good to go now.... :ok:


16th Apr 2010, 11:55
Ah cheers Dean,
Guess time will tell how my time line goes....YOU day on this coming tuesday. Have to wait and see how I go...getting over the study of maths I must say, so many topics to cover as its hard to know the exact specifics of the testing.


16th Apr 2010, 12:29
Jorocketoz- How many pencils can you buy if each costs 20c and you have $4.20?

I wouldn't stress too much, its really basic material that goes up to about a year 10 standard (pythag, SOHCAHTOA, long multiplication, decimal multiplication, addition and subtraction).The maths test goes for 12 minutes so simply do the easiest questions first and come back for the rest later.

Awesome job romper


17th Apr 2010, 04:52
AlexanderB Cheers mate.

I do appreciate the info (esp. the "dont stress" and details of what to expect), I will sleep easy tonight mate.

Will let u know how I go (tuesday is the day of mine).
Thanks again Jo

Stick Monkey001
17th Apr 2010, 08:08
At CJ:

The Army is actually choc full of pilots at the moment. Eventually it be looking for more but in the mean time it has heaps. Same for Navy. Air Force is fairly full too but the best option out of the three for scoring a spot. Operational conversions in all three services are a considerable wait. If you want more info on the Kiowa seating changes let me know.

18th Apr 2010, 09:16
" hope" .. Ha!, use that word around an officer and they'll know youre a tool, you must strive for your aspirations, Although wishing failure on someone else goes to show your character pretty well, even if it is simple trolling on the forum. Be wary though, Im 99% sure FSP staff and the board members know about this thread, and they'll be reading...

To all those with Impending FSP dates: Good luck!, Dont stress, Stay cool, and Dont take your eye off the ball! (especially in the group activities), it will be the best (and also the worst) 2 weeks of your life!

Oh, and You're/You are isnt a spelling issue, its something else... Do you know what?

18th Apr 2010, 12:43
Yep, thats FSP for you. The most amazing flying you've ever done, with the harshest debriefs to bring you back down to earth shortly after your unsightly landing did, all with a team of some of the finest young hopefuls you'll ever meet. I've never been so stressed and enjoyed myself so much in my life. ;)

Captain Sand Dune
18th Apr 2010, 22:28
with the harshest debriefs to bring you back down to earth shortly
You think so?:E

19th Apr 2010, 04:47

I am currently on the process of applying for Pilot and completed my YOU session a week back. Having a few issues with my school qualifications but hopefully that gets through. Given that I make it through to assessment day, my eyesight isnt great. I wear spectacles and was hoping to find out if I would be allowed to take the FSP and OSB before opting to do the LASIK if required. Since its an expensive procedure, I want to first have a firm offer from the ADF before I do it.

In short, can I do the LASIK if the need arises pending FSP and OSB, or is the only way to do it is to bet six grand? if my eyesight is that bad that is.

Cheers and thanks for any information. :)

Dilmah G
19th Apr 2010, 04:50
G'day Septerra,

I've got no first hand experience with RAAF's policy, but this thread's originator (Hornetboy) appealed to attend FSP and OSB before forking out the money for Laser Surgery, I believe. Hopefully someone with better knowledge than I and will clarify it a bit more for you. :) I *would* suggest PM-ing Hornetboy, however if I recall, he hasn't been active on the forum for nearly a year now.

19th Apr 2010, 05:53
Nice, thanks for the info and super quick reply Dilmah. Its good to know that someone was atleast able to defer it until after the FSP. I have PM'ed Hornetboy, but since he hasnt been active I am not counting on a response. However it gives me hope that my handicap in the eye can be overlooked for the FSP.

Can I request a link to the thread, if there is one, where Hornetboy discussed his process of getting the LASEK delayed until after the FSP and OSB.

Thanks a ton again. Its really got me a little relaxed now. :ok:

Kind Regards

19th Apr 2010, 05:56
And another quick question.

Does anyone have an idea on how long before you can start your Officer Training for RAAF after the LASEK?

Dilmah G
19th Apr 2010, 06:17
G'day mate

No worries, used a few shortcuts and found his post for you. (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/333897-raaf-flight-screening-program-merged-post1922074.html#post1922074) Recommend you read the rest of his posts though, as well as the rest of the thread one afternoon, there's a lot of helpful information to inwardly digest.

As for your question about OTS after LASEK, I believe a quick google search could yield you the recovery time for LASEK. (I don't recall it being more than a week or two, however.) Perhaps some people who've gone through the process could shed more light. :)

19th Apr 2010, 07:56
Thanks again buddy! Now all I need to do is wait till I get my school qualifications verified by DFR since they have been completed overseas, which I have been told would take a few weeks.

As for the recovery period after LASEK/LASIK whatever its called, it is specified online that you can usually resume duties the next day but hornetboys post mentions him having waited a three month post op period. I guess military training would have to wait a few months after surgery. In any case, if I get an offer, I wouldnt mind waiting a year even to realise the dream of flying.

Ill keep my progress updated here.

Cheers. :)

19th Apr 2010, 09:34

Simple solution is to ring PSA. Don't wish to be the bearer of bad news but I know of a chap that went the same way as you and the answer was no. He was told that why should the ADF take a chance on the surgery being succesful ( I know it is 99% succesful), take a chance on him being recommended and then have to wait while he had the surgery and recovered from it. Remember if you are recommended you are only in the pool for 12 months. If they can not send you off to a service for 6 to 8 months it dosen't leave you much time in competition.

19th Apr 2010, 10:33
quick question fellas
I applied for RAAF Pilot and Navy observer about his time last year, passed everything including assessment day. I was contacted few weeks ago and told that I was up for observer flight screening on the 25th April, and was told that the Pilot dossiers haven't been looked at yet, has anyone gotten into Pilot flight screening yet ?

19th Apr 2010, 13:14
Hey sigh,
I'm actually booked in to the flight screening session (for pilot) starting that same day. Guess i'll see you soon.

20th Apr 2010, 02:19

If your first preference is pilot why are you doing observer?

20th Apr 2010, 02:35
It gives me a better chance at actually getting into the ADF, I would rather be a pilot but Observer is a great job also, plus I can apply to transfer to navy pilot if I want in the future anyway.

20th Apr 2010, 04:21
Sigh, My advice to you would be to pursue the pilot application till the end before entering as oberver if thats not what you really want to do.

As for laser eye surgery I had it done after I failed assesment day medical. Has to be stable for 6 months before your file will even go to PSA. Make sure you triple check the type of procedure you are getting as not all of them are allowed. In my day LASEK was not allowed, don't know the current state of play.

20th Apr 2010, 04:32
That's weird, it's only LASEK that's approved for aircrew now...
6 month wait!? I thought it was 3! :mad: Well, it looks like I wont be making it to FSP in 2010!

Oh, and ditto on the Observer option, if you want pilot, accept nothing else, even if it means the airlines :\

20th Apr 2010, 05:16
Sigh, totally agree with you. What I meant was why haven't the pilot dossiers been looked at??? In particular if Observer is second preference why is you first preference running second and second prefernce running---and down the backstraight comess...
All jokes aside why? Is recruiting doing a quick double shuffle to fill numbers eslewhere? Where is your pilot application?

20th Apr 2010, 05:17
I think I meant LASIK the one with the flap is not allowed.

20th Apr 2010, 05:33
Is there absolutely no way around it? Since spending around six grand would mean a round of uncomfortable calls to all the people I know to borrow some cash and then wait out for six months for the FSP, after which I may or may not get the call from PSA, and even if a spot is offered, may or may not get recommended at the OSB.

I am confident in my capabilities and on making it through the recruitment process given the opportunity to, but at the moment six grand approx. is quite a sum to consider. I guess Ill just try and get my application through to Pilot specific testing, for which I was initially put on hold and have had to submit a kind of informal appeal to the DFR regarding my high school qualifications and subjects. I should know the results of that in a couple of weeks hopefully [have no clue why it takes them so long to open a mail and verify the documents] and then try and do what hornetboy did, i.e. defer LASEK until after OSB. But then I am expecting it to be an issue for me. :uhoh:

20th Apr 2010, 06:22
You should be allowed to do pilot spec testing before getting your eyes done. I would not do anything untill you have at least passed the tests and gone to an assesment day.

When said I 6 months, 3 months is prob correct but by the time your file gets looked at by avmed and gets to FSP its prob going to be 6 months.

I had surgery in december and was at Flight screening in the following August

20th Apr 2010, 08:37

I just couldnít stand staying without doing something in regards to my application and decided to go and see where my eyes were at. I do wear glasses but I did not have my prescription nor do I have an idea of what power my eyes have. So, I just got back from an eye examination and was told that I have a unaided 6/12 in one eye and 6/7.5 or something in the other, and aided was 6/6 in both eyes. I also forgot to actually ask what my eye power was. I was chatting away about my Pilot application and asked him how bad it was and he was able to get out his handbook and verify some figures and said that 6/12 unaided might just be enough but they may just knock you out because its a very competitive environment. He also mentioned that the book was about seven years old and probably not a good guide.

I am just wondering if anyone can let me know if this is going to get me through to at least FSP without surgery or other medical procedures? I am guessing 6/12 unaided should not require LASEK? Just wondering if the barrier is the actual eye power or the very fact that one needs to wear spectacles or contacts for perfect vision no matter how small the corrective effect is?

I couldnít help but keep smiling like an idiot at everyone on my walk back home, considering what the doc said on me having a possibility of just scraping through.:O

Cheers guys! I have been reading little chunks of this thread whenever I can and its got some invaluable advice and information. Thank you to all contributors in this thread. :ok:

Dilmah G
20th Apr 2010, 09:20
I'm no optometrist, but isn't 6/12 equivalent to -1? (the RAAF's eyesight requirement as stated sometime back in the thread)

20th Apr 2010, 10:49
The trip to the medical specialists isnt until after FSP, so as long as you meet a certain eyesight standard, that is, reading smallish letters on a chart a metre(ish) away (with one eye covered etc etc), it shouldnt be a problem i imagine.


20th Apr 2010, 11:39
@ finestkind
I am not sure, when I talked to the person at Tamworth, they weren't very clear, i guess it might take longer? ( too look at pilot compared to observer)

20th Apr 2010, 11:56
I was under the impression that the mandatory specialist assesments had to be done prior to FSP...

There's a manual floating about somewhere which details all these sorts of brain teasers, the DFR doctors refer to it so I suppose you should try and get in contact with one if you can't find any relevant extracts floating about on the net.

The previous page of the thread seems really weird.

BTW, Anyone here intending on going for the ADFA 2011 intake?

Dilmah G
20th Apr 2010, 12:09
The previous page of the thread seems really weird.
That'll be because the forum mods ripped out a chunk of posts relating to another post that was either a very poor attempt at a joke or just plain childish. A post or two from the exchange is still lying about there, making the page a little hard to read.

20th Apr 2010, 13:01
I was under the impression that the mandatory specialist assesments had to be done prior to FSP...

There's a manual floating about somewhere which details all these sorts of brain teasers, the DFR doctors refer to it so I suppose you should try and get in contact with one if you can't find any relevant extracts floating about on the net.

The previous page of the thread seems really weird.

BTW, Anyone here intending on going for the ADFA 2011 intake?

I asked my enlistment coordinator, and she told me that they were after FSP .

And yes, ADFA 2011 ftw

20th Apr 2010, 13:20
There are several phases of medicals, no surprises or secrets here unlike the rest of the testing you undertake:

First is at YOU session with a basic questionnaire and colourblindness test.

At assessment day for pilot applicants, you're measured to make sure you're good to go with ejection seats, they do an EKG, lung capacity, hearing test, and a series of eye tests (they check for 20/20 vision amongs other things, each eye is tested seperately and together in a variety of tests), and a few more where a doc goes over you to check everything is in order. After this stage you're not yet proven fit for enlistment.

At FSP you have to do your fitness test to the Army standard irrespective of the service you applied for.

Further medicals following FSP are the pre enlistment medical checks, which oddly enough you do prior to your offer :confused:. They are dental and ophthalmological check ups, and there can be further appointments made if they have picked up on anything of concern in the previous stages (eg. an irregular EKG reading or low lung capacity may need to be examined further). Prior to enlisting, you have to then do the fitness assessment again.

On the down low: this is supposedly a typical profile, and this is what I have experienced in my selection process. Guys on my FSP from other states have had experiences that have varied slightly though, like pretty much everything else in the recruitment process.

20th Apr 2010, 13:23
Thats a bit of a relief although you'd think that the FSP instructors would want a medical class 1 rather than the class 3M.

Looks as though we're at about the same stage; waiting for an FSP slot.

Definately ADFA 2011 for the win.:cool:

Captain Sand Dune
20th Apr 2010, 22:32
PSA do not make policy on what medical checks are required. As far as I'm aware that information comes from recruiting.

21st Apr 2010, 04:57
Fitness test at FSP aye? Better start getting fit then:E

21st Apr 2010, 05:36
Army PFT: 15 Push-ups, 45 Sit-ups, 7.5 Shuttle run score

No big challenge. I can recall seeing something about a 2.4km timed run which spurred me into starting somewhat of an exercise regime and I managed to get my time down to 10:30, I can't find anything on this assesment anymore.

21st Apr 2010, 06:08
The fitness test isn't hard by any stretch of the imagination. The one done in Tamworth doesn't prevent you from getting in if you fail (thats the pre enlistment fitness test), but its definitely there for a reason. It certainly wouldn't be an indicator of motivation if you couldn't make 10 pushups, 45 situps (feet anchored!), and 7.5 on the beep test. After all, for most of that 7.5 you'll either be walking if you've timed it right, or standing around if you haven't ;)

21st Apr 2010, 08:47
Made it through my YOU day yesterday. Thanks to everyone for the help.

I have a question in regard to my up coming Assessment day testing. Is it the maths test on my Assessment day that goes up to about a year 10 standard (pythag, SOHCAHTOA, long multiplication, decimal multiplication, addition and subtraction) and estimation or is it more complex.

Also what else can I expect to be doing (test wise) on that day?

Thanks Jorocketoz

21st Apr 2010, 09:03
Made it through my YOU day yesterday. Thanks to everyone for the help.

I have a question in regard to my up coming Assessment day testing. Is it the maths test on my Assessment day that
Quote:goes up to about a year 10 standard (pythag, SOHCAHTOA, long multiplication, decimal multiplication, addition and subtraction)
goes up to about a year 10 standard (pythag, SOHCAHTOA, long multiplication, decimal multiplication, addition and subtraction)
and estimation or is it more complex.

Also what else can I expect to be doing (test wise) on that day?

Okay, well youve done the easy part and now it gets a bit trickier.
And you actually have an extra day of further pilot specific testing before assesment day. It includes:

-Instrument reading, which is basically just reading scales on somewhat dodgey instrument panels:}. Its 60 questions in 9mins, if i remember correctly.

-2 lots of aircraft orientation questions. Shoudl be very simple for most people.

-2 maths test:
*One is an estimation type queestions
*One is Speed distance time questions (Speed Distance Time for Dummies - The Student Room (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=501724&page=1) should help)

- A series of hand eye coord test.

I suggest you read up on this forum if you havent as of yet:)

21st Apr 2010, 09:41
Hey guys, going to derail here for a bit =s

What do you think the difference between a manager and a leader is?

I know there is one but I can't seem to word the difference properly, is it that a leader inspires people to do a task, whereas a manager tells them to do it?

Dilmah G
21st Apr 2010, 10:12
My leadership experience isn't horrendously far ranging or anything, but I see no harm in putting my $0.02 in here.

In my opinion, the difference between a manager and a leader lies in the fact that well, management is but one facet of leadership. A manager is rarely expected to be charismatic, etc. A leader is expected to show primary and secondary leadership behaviours. I once read somewhere, "Managers blame, Leaders take blame." (not infallible, but illustrates the point about integrity in a leader)

A manager, in the sense of the word, is someone who 'manages' a task, perhaps conducts planning and organization of resources, but is ultimately assigned these short-term tasks by a 'Leader', who seeks to achieve a long-term goal. The manager is expected to fit to a mould with his actions, while his Leader sets/shapes that mould.

Everyone's definition is different, googling/reading about Management vs. Leadership and drawing your own conclusions is probably the best thing to do, and to be honest, I don't see anything wrong with your definition anyway.

21st Apr 2010, 11:48
Thanks a million rotor11 I really appreciate it.
Will do.

Cheers Jorocketoz

21st Apr 2010, 11:55
Hey sigh

I just googled "leadership v management" and a few sites came up. Don't know if they put it how u want it but might be worth checking out:

Leadership vs. Management (http://changingminds.org/disciplines/leadership/articles/manager_leader.htm)

Leadership and Management: The Difference (http://www.learnmanagement2.com/leadershipandmanagement.htm)

Hope that may help u a bit.

Regards Jorocketoz

21st Apr 2010, 12:21
Cheers mate
Understand it alot better now, leadership is more dynamic and about encouraging/motivating people to follow you, whereas management is more like planning and telling people what to do, as subordinates.

Had this question at my assessment day and got suck, luckily I had a really good interviewer that mind too much :P

21st Apr 2010, 13:12
Jorocketoz- If you're having your spec. testing on the same day as your assesment day then your in for one hell of a time. It might pay to look back through the thread and see what you can dig up, the spec testing is much more challenging than the YOU testing.

Good job on passing.


Theedmancometh- I've heard that same general statement from a few other guys although I've been particularly lucky with recruiting. My application has gone through the Melboure DFR centre and I've always been able to get honest and accurate answers, some of the recruiters have even gone out of their way to help out and I've found them to be a friendly bunch.

It might be that you're talking to the wrong people, try asking the senior recruiters or simply trying to seek out answers in person.


Hey Sigh, that's actually a really good question, I can't imagine a candidate not being asked it. My answer was very similar to yours in most aspects.

21st Apr 2010, 23:35
@ sigh: Glad it helped mate, yeah sounds like u got a good understanding now.

@ AlexanderB: Hey mate, I think it is a misunderstanding on my part and in fact its just my Spec testing, but I will ring them to double check. Just that they talked of it all at once with the career interview so I assumed it was all happening on the same day ( but my letter does just say "...next step in the DFR selection process is to attend specialist testing on...).

Yeah I will "get my read on" and go back through it all cheers.

Best of luck to everyone else in their various stages of the process.


p.s. Gotta love the Pprune

22nd Apr 2010, 08:06
Ah the joys of DFR. You've just got to use your own good judgement, because honestly they see so many people that in some cases you're just a number, and they probably don't loose too much sleep about 'trifling' matters in your rather ambitious career choice. eg. when I first applied they told me straight out that I don't have what it takes to be a pilot or an officer, and that I'd be wasting my time pursuing it further - and that was emphasised with regards to making it to fsp, let alone selection!

Well all those years down the track and my dossier is in the pool competing for an offer, and DFR have still managed to have a bit of fun at my expense, though thank goodness its mostly PSA I have to deal with now.

22nd Apr 2010, 08:41
Im not the only one to hate DFR then. They managed to misplace a Speed post with all my documentation to prove that my qualifications meet the minimum criteria, when just a couple of days back I was told by another person that it has been received and just not updated yet. So I have had to resend the entire bunch of about fifty pages through fax, and I have no idea about what now happens to my application form that they misplaced. It really is frustrating when you actually take a couple of days off work to try and get your documentation organised and sent asap and know a week later that they lost it. :mad:

PS: Got my pilot specific testing booked today for the 25th of next month. :cool:

Update: Does the specialist testing involve mechanical applications such as pressure and surface area and electrical circuits as mentioned in the ARCO books for the USAF tests?

24th Apr 2010, 12:42
Update: Does the specialist testing involve mechanical applications such as pressure and surface area and electrical circuits as mentioned in the ARCO books for the USAF tests?

It doesnt luckily. That sounds hard.

Dilmah G
24th Apr 2010, 13:06
I've read over it in the ARCO Books, it's not obscenely hard as long as you get the logic, e.g. If gear 2 moves clockwise, which of the gears will be moving in the same direction? + a picture.

24th Apr 2010, 16:22
Yea the basic ones are alright. I was just having trouble with the more advanced ones but they wernt all that difficult once you had a few formulas nailed. I was mainly worried because I came across this website, which has a link for a mechanical test which was quite tough:

Navy Officer info on Scholarships, ASTB, BDCP, Pay, and NUPOC (http://navy-officer.com/astb.html)

But yeah, thanks for the info. Im glad its not a part of the specialist testing.


28th Apr 2010, 05:55
Hi Romper (Dean),

I am also going up to Tamworth for the Flight Screening Course on the 8th of May, so i'll see you there!

As for preparation; are you just going over all the usual stuff (base locations, units, current and past operations, finer details of training and conversion etc)?

Either way i'll probably see you on the same flight.


28th Apr 2010, 08:13
gday elliot,

Thats pretty much what im studying mate, Also doin a basic aerobatics endorsement just to get familar with unusual aircraft attitudes.

Hopefully see you on the way up there, and good luck!


28th Apr 2010, 08:59
I have asked someone I know at BFTS, but I haven't received a reply as he is hard to contact these days:

Any tips on preparing for the FSP? Is the material fairly difficult? Does it stray much from basic handling (turning, takeoff, landing, climbing and descending, basic aerobatics)?

Since you aren't flying all day every day, what else do you do during your days there???

Any other tips or advice that would help?

Also, out of interest; What is the max altitude reached during the flying at the FSP? And is the CAP 10 much different from the CT4?

I have been reading through this forum which is fairly long, so forgive me from asking a question that has already been asked!


28th Apr 2010, 09:43

Do yourself a favour and don't even try to prepare flying wise! You will only set yourself up for a fail with pre-conceived ideas and probably bad habits. Just turn up there keen to learn, listen to what they teach you and work your hardest to apply it airborne. Talk to your BFTS friend about chairflying and prepbooks as these are tools that will help you alot once you are there and supplied with the learning material.

If i were you, i would concentrate your prep on your OSB as that is something you can do.

You most likely wont get above 5000', because it just takes way too long to get up there.

While you are not flying, you are studying!!!!!!!!

Hope that helps a bit

28th Apr 2010, 10:09
My Advice, Stick to studying for the board before you go.
The flying or should I say the pace of it is quite demanding and it's not unusual to fly twice a day, but it's not something you can really prepare for, it's matter of applying the techniques they teach you to the best of your ability. I personally didn't have time to even think about the board until the flying was done. Example ; I had my CT-4 checkride and my first Cap-10 flight within a couple of hours of each other! That's not uncommon. It's a lot of information to digest so you spend most of your nights studying for the next day's flying.

On the altitude question, I did my Cap-10 checkride on a beautiful morning and I think we got up around 6000-6500ft at one stage.:ok:

The Cap-10 is quite different as you will experience(he he!) and therefore a lot of different information needs to be taken on board.

28th Apr 2010, 11:15
Hi Guys,

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I thought that was the case; the actual flying component being hard to prepare for (if not impossible) as they are assessing potential. I just thought I'd ask anyway, just in case there were some tips that could give me more of a chance.

I'll def be preparing for the OSB when I get a chance (being in late Uni semester and all); usual stuff I asked Romper (Dean) about (base locs, past and present Ops, leadership vs Management and training stuff).

I am familiar with the concept of chair-flying, so I'm sure we'll be employing that study technique when we (us candidates) get a chance.

I am really looking forward to it, and enjoy the idea that it is like a very mini BFTS!

Thanks for your responses, I'll post up any other questions I have before May the 8th!


psycho joe
28th Apr 2010, 11:48
cj0203 & keenas are on the money.

The Flying component is very much monkey see monkey do. Pay attention to the mass briefings. Learn the power settings and the flight attitudes but most of all try to take a deep breath, relax & try not to strangle the joy stick. It's ok to enjoy flying. :ok: Be positive about control movements (don't let the plane fly you) & think "command". Also do lots of armchair flying. I also used a laptop with flt sim to help with armchair flying.

Never ever be late for a flight, or anything else for that matter. And don't let your mates be late. On time is late. Early is on time.

Also learn how to do quick mental time / speed / dist calculations for the panel interview.

Most importantly work together & get along with the other flight screeners. remember that you are not in competition against these people, but with these people. Aim to get everyone through, with the strongest helping the weakest, just as in the military. Trust me, if you don't work together the psych will quickly determine the loner's & prickly personalities & pull all of you to pieces. As they'll tell you on your first few days at OTS, "Individuals don't make it through officer training; Only people who work as a team make it through officer training".

Lastly, everyone studies for the board, but a lot let themselves down with their personal presentation. Remember that you are being watched from day one. Here's a tip, try ironing that sh!tty orange jumpsuit that they give you. Why? because no-one else does. And for gods sake wear a propper suit to the interview. Not a borrowed suit, but one that's been tailored to fit you. Try to remember that you are entering an ultra conservative organisation; "Get a bloody haircut" is not what you want the board to be thinking.
By now you might have realised that your picture that recruiting took way back on your initial assessment day has been clipped to your file the whole time & up to now it is the only pictorial reference that the board has of you. If you were smart enough to wear a suit on that day then you are streets ahead. If not, then try to make up for it with the best suit & linguistic skills that you can muster & may god have mercy on your soul.:E

Have fun.:ok:

29th Apr 2010, 07:55
Hey guys,

Just got home from DFR after a difficult Assessment Day, eventuating in a recommendation. Just letting people know, that in the defence interview you will be required to talk for long periods on your motivation for the job. So be very clear in your own mind what these motivations are!

Now on to flight screening!! :) How long did the majority of candidates wait untill a call up???


29th Apr 2010, 10:18
I waited about 4-5 months. Had a couple of specialists to see. But from when my file was received at Tamworth, It was a month or two I think. But remember, not everyone gets to FSP, It's an anxious time waiting for that call so good luck! Oh and get good at modeling aircraft! You'll see!:ok:

29th Apr 2010, 10:31
Good to hear you passed,

My assesment day was fun but I also had a little trouble describing my motivations, what they want is really detailed. Its a bit hard to try and sell yourself without sounding slightly cocky. My interviewer was happy with my performance though, apparently this type of highly detailed question troubles lots of candidates and its easy to see why. I could probably do with a polish up of these types of thing before FSP.

In the photo that DFR took of me I had a pretty big grin on, the recruiter had just cracked a joke about one of the guys there with last name seaman who was going as an able seaman. One of those "you had to be there" things, I couldn't help but smile.

I'm still waiting to hear from PSA or DFR about an FSP slot and I had my assesment day in February (Keep in mind that I'm an ADFA entry candidate and courses are only run on school holidays, DEO is probably a whole different world)

I'm also waiting to hear from DFR about a base visit to Amberley some time in the next month with one of the other pilot candidates. Should be a blast.

CJ, Modelling aircraft? Sounds interesting...

29th Apr 2010, 12:11
Congratulations Blackbird14!

As for waitings times; I got a call from the PSA a few weeks after my assessment day. So from the sounds of it, the waiting time varies quite a bit (I've heard of people waiting up to 8 months)!


29th Apr 2010, 12:19
Hi Guys,

Just another question regarding OSB; how difficult are the speed/dist/time questions the board asks you? This is one (of many) aspects that is freaking me out... slightly. It sounds like their decision isn't based entirely on the outcome of this part of the interview, but how have other people handled it in the past?


psycho joe
29th Apr 2010, 13:22
how difficult are the speed/dist/time questions the board asks you?

Not any harder than you've already done in testing, except four board members are glaring at you.

It could be something as simple as "you're doing 180kt, how long will it take to do 15nm". (5 min @ 3 miles/min)

CJ, Modelling aircraft? Sounds interesting...

I think he's refering to the ridiculous requirement to build & paint a plastic model aeroplane. It came in at 2007.:ugh:

29th Apr 2010, 13:29
Psycho Joe,

Haha, I saw a picture taken from someone else's Flight Screening course, and they were sitting around an F15 model plane they built; What is the deal with this?

Is this some kind of team building exercise?

I was wondering what that was all about!

29th Apr 2010, 13:41
Well done blackbird, good to hear mate. Obviously no issues with your lankiness?

Psycho joe, isn't 180kn, 15nm 5 minutes? Or am I missing something?

psycho joe
29th Apr 2010, 14:03
Psycho joe, isn't 180kn, 15nm 5 minutes? Or am I missing something?

:O Good pickup, I'm presently home with the flu. Thats my excuse. :E

Haha, I saw a picture taken from someone else's Flight Screening course, and they were sitting around an F15 model plane they built; What is the deal with this?

Is this some kind of team building exercise?

..Or an ego stroking one. military 101, If you have enough stripes you make the rules.

Your ability to fly an aeroplane & be an officer will come down, in part, to your ability to glue and paint bits of plastic. If you do well you get the oohs & aah's from the Wing Commander & your plane gets whisked straight to the pool room (RSL). The ones that don't make it end up scattered around the OSB interview room.

Just as importantly you will have to give a speach without notes on a topic relating to the model. (engines, airframes etc.)

Good luck gentlemen. If we're ever attacked by plastic model aeroplanes, a beleaguered nation will collectively turn it's eyes to...the flight screeners.

29th Apr 2010, 21:08
Psycho Joe-
Alternatively the plastic model exercise could be a good way for the board members to observe how people contribute to a team activity- any team activity, also how well they can stand up and talk about aspects of a subject they have been told to research (an aircraft) and they might even be able to work out some level of enthusiasm for military aviation in general,

Alternatively it could just be a ridiculous requirement.....;)

29th Apr 2010, 22:53

A group doing something together.... I'll take what is teamwork??

A speech given to a group.... I''ll take what is public speaking.

But no thats surely got nothing to do with it. The board just wants to play with plastic models and know that the new intake can defend Australia with them. I mean really its all about flying isn't it?

psycho joe
30th Apr 2010, 03:50
A group doing something together.... I'll take what is teamwork??

Why would the board assume team work here when they already have team based scenario activities that are conducted in front of the board? The psych will also work out team structure in a ranking exercise. More than likely the most artisticly minded person in the group will do the model on their own. Better yet there are rumours of someone who lives in Tamworth, making good money out of building model aeroplanes...Delegation & outsourcing perhaps?

A speech given to a group.... I''ll take what is public speaking

Again, there are already public speaking activities in front of the board that are harder than this.

I believe that the purpose of the exercise is to decrease your personal time & increase stress levels. Personally, I'm glad that I didn't have to do it as i have no artistic ability whatsoever. I fly aeroplanes, I can't paint em.

30th Apr 2010, 04:07
@ oneflewnorth
Obviously no issues with your lankiness?No issues mate, ended up falling 8mm below the sitting height requirement of 100cm. They had two nurses and a doctor check!! I think just to make sure I had soiled my pants sufficiently!!

@ cj0203
Oh and get good at modeling aircraft!Sounds fun to be honest!! :)

30th Apr 2010, 04:39
Looking at my last post, what I really meant is that some people get far too worked up about what happens at FSP at the expense of doing it.

So what if you have to make a plastic model, who cares if the aircraft aren't the best performing in the world, does it really matter that the jumpsuits are the ugliest things in creation? I know if I wanted the job badly enough I would just get on with it and try my hardest.

I'll get off my soap box, but there are some really good models there that show the people involved had some fun making them.

Where are you up to in the ADF P-Joe? How long ago did you go through FSP?- Just interested

30th Apr 2010, 04:57

I doubt very much if the board dreams up activities for the sake of adding stress to the group, particularly in this course given the flying component.

You are exactly right, there are team based scenario's in the board and that is exactly why one would be given outside the board. I would be very surprised if the board doesn't prob into who did what and when did you build it etc.

Again you are right. There are public speaking activities in the board. The difference to this one is it is a prepared one. Also I'll bet as such the boys and girls are questioned on their talk. So its not just thinking on your feet. Its how much effort you put into your talk, how well you delivered it, how much knowledge you have on it and etc

Fair enough you may not see any benefit in model building as a team exercise nor deliver a prepared talk but given these are outside the board I bet the board members do.


lost me 180kts for 15nm = 5min, isn't that what PJ said?

30th Apr 2010, 05:12
Whatever they are trying to achieve through the model building exercise; it looks like a bit of fun either way.

30th Apr 2010, 06:56
@ finestkind

lost me 180kts for 15nm = 5min, isn't that what PJ said?

The post was ammended after Oneflewnorth raised the point.


30th Apr 2010, 06:59
You may not see the value in the model building exercise...but I can confirm that occasionally some FSP staff volunteer to relieve the crowded shelf of a few well constructed examples if that makes any difference :}

There is both pre-prepared and impromptu speaking, and you are quizzed by the board on aspects of these. Its not hard to guess what they might ask, thats what I did and it was pretty close. Best advice is to know all of the services, know yourself, know why you're there and also get a bit of speaking practice in. Some say its defeating the purpose, but I say the best impromptu speeches are the ones you prepared for :ok:

psycho joe
30th Apr 2010, 07:13

I'm very familiar with the process, the personalities involved, and the reasoning behind them. I stand by my post.


Correct, play the game, jump the hoops and you'll do fine.

If any of you have any questions about FSP, OSB etc feel free to PM me as I'm more than happy to help out new fellow aviators.

Without wanting to state the bleeding obvious, be careful about posting details on an open forum that no doubt is known to OSB members; Particularly if you've slagged off about DFR (who hasn't).

30th Apr 2010, 10:02

good to know that youíre in the know. You wouldn't happen to be the alter ego of CAPT SANDMAN.

True he who is charge owns the train set. So as you are familiar with the process and the personalities and the reason behind this exercise, it then is fact that it is just to decrease personal time and increase stress levels.

I guess youíre right. Lemme see thats about 11 days (minus the travel and two board days) to build a plastic model which normally takes a 12 yo about (guessing here any model makers out there) what 5 - 6 hours. Given that its, how many in an FSP group, 7-8 adults. If you fly twice a day your finished in 6 days. So therefore forgetting nights where you are furiously studying that leaves 5 odd days (40 hours) for 7-8 adults to build this model. Yeah I would be panicked about the limited time and therefore really stressed. Cause I haven't forgotten the extra stress caused by having to research the type of aircraft the model is.
PJ maybe I am taking your post the wrong way but it appears as if your saying that the exercise is a waste of time thought up by an egotistical Wing Commander ( I don't think you have to be a Wing Commander to be egotistical have seen a few of those at Pilot Officer) to increase stress, decrease free time and provide models to whomever.

Undoubtedly your right with the OSB members monitoring this thread. However I doubt its a problem to say what you think in particular regarding recruiting and how incompetent they are.

psycho joe
30th Apr 2010, 15:04
good to know that youíre in the know. You wouldn't happen to be the alter ego of CAPT SANDMAN.

No, Not that I know of, although I have spent years trying to build a case for insanity. :E

Sometimes I like to go on forums & pretend that I'm a retired FJ pilot who trains Muslim kids how to theoretically bomb coalition forces. Then again, that might have been a friend of a friend of mine. Sound familiar? :hmm:

90% of your posts are on Flight Screening, yet you've never actually been through it yourself have you? :D

1st May 2010, 03:29
Quite correct. Flight screening was way after my time.

Just the same as, unless I have misread, you never did the model building thingy and the reason it is done, but obviously are an expert in this area.

I am so pleased that a friend of a friend of mine is a retired FJ pilot (quite a few in fact). As far as training what to do what with whom, do we wish to go into a history lesson where yesterdays enemies are todayís trading buddies.

As a ex QFI I do find it interesting to see how the system works and especially how the youngsters are perceiving it. I do not like here say and gossip and certainly do have contacts that can verify "facts" and not from the side you have been on but the examining side.

Once again a topic is being side tracked because someone doesn't like being disagreed with and it starts to become personal. I apologise if wrong but I do not believe I have alluded to any slur obvious or poorly masked about you. Maybe I am not interpreting your last post correctly? but to the best of my knowledge you don't know me and therefore know jackshit about my history. Who is pretending to be a retired FJ pilot? I really don't do any bombing missions, theoretical or otherwise. Perhaps I should state that you must be in situ at BFTS considering you know, the personalities, process and reasoning behind them. As such you must be a QFI at BFTS, at least, if not a board member at PSA.

I will continue to disagree with you on the value of what this topic is about, the model building exercise. You have your right to state that "it is a time consuming and stress raising exercise " delivered by an egotistical WGCDR for the purpose of providing pool rooms in the RSL with nice models. I have a right to say sorry sweetheart but I disagree.

Itís a shame that the topic cannot be stuck to.

psycho joe
1st May 2010, 05:11
but to the best of my knowledge you don't know me and therefore know jackshit about my history.

Ditto "sweetheart", but I do know your psych profile, and I know that you have to have the last word. I'm also glad to hear that you were never tasked with a pointless exercise during your military experience.

Once again a topic is being side tracked because someone doesn't like being disagreed with and it starts to become personal.

No, it was sidetracked because someone had a disproportionate response about a pointless sub-topic. The response in itself is far more interesting to me than the topic. The irony is that for someone not associated with the said activity, you've wasted a disproportionate amount of time defending a pointless activity. Which in itself has acheived nothing. ie pointless. Subject a little close to the bone perhaps?

1st May 2010, 05:19
If anyone here seriously wants to become a military pilot and wants some advice, do yourself a favour and read the first half of this thread, and PM those who you feel could offer some insight into the selection process/career.

Otherwise, steer clear of the last 6 months of this thread - having completed the process recently I can confirm that there is quite a bit of "swing and miss" in the info provided here unfortunately (rumour network :D), and isn't worth braving a minefield of disinformation for something as important as this.

1st May 2010, 06:29
Mudrat well said.

If youíre not positive about something ask and if the info provided on here is contradictory or confusing, donít bother with recruiting, contact someone who has been through the process recently


Oh dear, I guess you nom de plume sums it up.

Your reply to my reply to your reply whoís time to what time? Uncertain as to what a propionate response is regarding to giving a detailed response to ď I know beans and so donít tell me about beansĒ would beĒ. Yeah I still raise to the bait when someone beats their chest on being an expert. Particularly when itís pure conjecture.

I have yet to know of an individual that has been in the military that hasnít been given a pointless exercise at some stage.

Iím pleased you find the side topic more interesting than the topic itself. I wonder why you bothered to post at all on said topic? Or would it be that you like causing dissention or have a need to be noticed . Cannot be bothered to view your other post to see if there may be some evidence to my statement.

Close to the bone absolutely. Already stated the dislike for hear-say/gossip. But due to your lack of response in regards to, area of expertise for the model exercise, becoming personal ( I do get a little worked up when some one implies things like pretending to be this or that about me) and being at BFTS I can only assume you are right as you are there and know the finer details. The WGCDR must be egotistical and the exercise is a waste of time and resources. Which is great info for the boys and girls going to flight screening.

Pointless?? Right. Nothing like a positive spin from an experienced military pilot to put fire in the belly of the of the newbies, or are you going to tell me you arenít and have not been in the ADF?

1st May 2010, 10:06
Hi everyone!

Nationally the ADFA award applications for this year open today. Before I go ahead and book a YOU session, I would like to get a minimum 1-2 months study. After reading through the thread I have written myself a list of things to study, brush up on and have responses to. For those of you who have had the session and the spec testing, any feedback on what I do or donít need would be greatly appreciated. For those pessimists, it may seem that I am going overboard just for YOU session, but just like many of the contributors to this thread, I am determined to be a fast jet pilot in the RAAF and am prepared to work hard to get there. Below is what I am studying.

Current operational aircraft - Numbers?
Specifications Ė F/A Ė 18 Hornet, BAe 127 Hawk, PC-9/A
Operating flying squadrons - where? - aircraft operated?
Speed, distance, time questions - OASC
Fuel flow, rate per minute questions Ė OASC
North, South orientation questions - OASC
Recruitment process - where? - How long? Ė What?
What is the role of a RAAF pilot?
What is role of Hornet pilot?
What is role of RAAF officer?
Leader vs. manager difference
Multiplication/long division large and small numbers
Percentage fraction exercises
Why do you want to be a pilot in the RAAF?
What if you donít get in?
Why fast Jets?
What sets you apart from other recruits?

Lacho :)

1st May 2010, 10:48

Sounds like you are on the right track to me mate, so keep working hard! I was also one of those people who went overboard with the study, and believe me it paid off! And trust me, you are going to need all that motivation and then some more to go through pilots course and on to Fast Jets. Its a bloody hard road, but its worth it!


And also well said Mudrat! As i have said before, too much dick swinging from some people.

Captain Sand Dune
1st May 2010, 10:57

You're on the right track matey. You may want to do a little research on what aircraft are currently deployed where at the moment.
Have you tried to arrange a visit to a base?

Dilmah G
1st May 2010, 14:18
G'day Lachlan,

After blood, sweat, and multiple spell checks you finally found the post button, eh? :p

Slightly related to the topic of base visits, how beneficial would doing work experience at Pearce be? I've got to book between 4 and 6 days of work experience for November this year, and it seems like Pearce isn't on the list anymore under "ADF Work Experience", there's some Aviation placement at Garden Island however. Would it be worth trying to talk to someone at Pearce about work experience, or would G.I. be fine?

2nd May 2010, 06:28
Hey folks

I am currently waiting on my specialist testing, which is on the 25th of May. My situation is that I am currently working casual at a factory and get a maximum of a couple of shifts in a week. I did not want to take up new employment until after the specialist testing, and given I pass it, not until I am cleared or barred based on my eye sight on the Assessment day. Hoping things go smooth all the way through, I still have about a month or two before I know for sure and was wondering if there is anything I can do during this period that would help add weight to my application should I later on go through to the OSB. I did check out the ADF work experience opportunities and there isnít anything vacant in Victoria, and even then nothing pertaining to the Air Force.

Just thought Iíll ask here. Wanted to do something worthwhile while I am waiting.

2nd May 2010, 09:32

I would think anything aviation orientated, museums, air shows or military orientated. Work experience sounds good but it looks like thatís not an option.

If you aren't full time employed and have time can you get to an airport? Is there something you can do there?

2nd May 2010, 12:09

Try fishermans bend, I think there is some aviation people there, also did you try RAAF East Sale? I know it's a little way from Melbourne but they do have Central flying school there, and the Nav school(or whatever they are calling them today) PM if you like, may have a contact there.:)

3rd May 2010, 02:22
Hi all

Just want to confirm that at Pilot Specific Testing (the tests after you make it through your YOU day) there is NO interview? ie there is only the 2 maths tests (estimation and distance speed time), instrument reading, 2 lots of aircraft orientation and the hand eye coordination testing?
This meaning that the interview is at the Assessment day which follows at a later time? Am I correct?

Also on this note, what is the rough time period people had to wait between Pilot specific testing and the assessment day?

Best of luck to all at the various stages in their selection process.


3rd May 2010, 02:54
The waiting periods vary a great deal. I completed my Pilot Spec testing in June 2009 and have only just completed my Assessment Day. They found some discrepancies in my application, so there was a delay. A mistake I made early on with my application, is that I didn't call often enough. Keep hassling, calling, emailing, etc. You have to be proactive with your application, and as an officer entry candidate, it is expected of you.


3rd May 2010, 09:56
I am somewhat concerned, that no where amonst the posts, do I find someone who aspires to be anything but a knuckle head. Whilst that may be a noble cause indeed, and you could be the best pilot ever, you are missing two factors that the Air Force will be looking for.

The first is leadership, coupled to management which is harder to gain when you are sitting there all by yourself. However to be part of a crew, which eventually you will lead as a Captain, multi engine experience will develope skills that you will rarely achieve quickly being a jet pilot.

Yes the C130, Orion and the KC30 perhaps on the face of it are a bit ho hum, but I can assure that some of the most exciting flying I have had is in our trusty C130.

I am sure that with all of you trying to show you want to have fast jets on the top of your list, means that you also have to prove your point with all the other applicants. I wonder if your application said I want to fly multi, I aspire to become a QFI, I want to rise through the ranks and become an above average Exo, flight commander, QFI or even the CO, how many would look at your application in a different light.

At 36 Squadron we had an ex RAF Hunter pilot, what a lovely aircraft that was, but he said coming to fly the C130 was a great step forward.

The Air Force unless it has changed, is not just looking for good pilots, it is also and will be looking at your application, to see if you aspire to be a leader of men. I know plenty of good pilots, and some of them we would follow anywhere.

Just a thought if it helps.

Best of luck, though again I suspect that planning and clearly demonstarting you know where you are heading, will beet the need for luck.


3rd May 2010, 11:27
Hey Herkman,

Unfortunately for me, aspiring to be an Orion pilot helped none!

I originally turned up at the Defence Force Recruiting Centre wanting to be an ATCO, sat the YOU session testing and saw that pilot was a possibility so went for it. It was difficult trying to persuade my Defence employee interviewer at my Assessment Day that I had the motivation to be a pilot. Most of the aspiring pilots he speaks to I'm sure all want to fly fast jets and because I didn't, I think it may have thrown him! He questioned my motivation for a good 10 minutes, but eventually, thankfully, recommended me.

A week before my impending date at Flight Screening my housemates heard of my desire to become a military pilot and, consequently, a conversation started up about Top Gun. They were astounded to hear I'd never seen it so (fortunately?) I had to sit through the movie that night. I'm sure there are a lot of aspiring Mavericks out there, and that has a lot to do with many's motivation to fly fast jets. But who hasn't seen the Hornets fly in formation on a national day of importance or seen an F111 dump-and-burn and had the hairs stand up on the back of their neck? I, for one certainly have!

Upon doing much research down at PSA before the Board interview I had obviously realised that attaining your wings and flying any military aircraft would be enough for me, but this would not be enough to convince the Board. Having seen the famous photo of the PC-3 Orion flare shot and heard what important work the aircraft had undertaken during the Black Saturday bushfires, I decided to go against the grain and announce my intention to fly it and work in maritime aviation amongst other vital roles. It didn't work out unfortunately, but was offered the Army's Aviation Cadetship. For six months I wanted nothing more than to fly the Blackhawk and for six months I had envisioned myself flying it and what it would take to get there. Unfortunately as the height limit was decreased this has no longer become an option.

Since hearing this somewhat devastating news, I have been waiting out for a Navy offer and for the last few months have wanted nothing more than to be flying Seahawks as part of a RAN ship's flight. I have envisioned myself in the right-hand seat as Captain of the aircraft and doing all those things neccessary on the long road to reaching that goal.

As many aspiring military pilots could attest to, you can't always have control of your destiny, so to speak, and certain roadblocks will be put in the way. But I do believe whatever can motivate you to reach that next step is extremely important and if that is to ultimately fly fast jets, then so be it.

3rd May 2010, 12:03
The past few weeks have seemed pretty messy, by the looks of it I'd say a few egos have come to clash. I'd like to think that its still no good cause to disregard the past 6 months although it may be slightly distasteful.

Just about every other pilot candidate I know barring one wants to go for the fast jets and I'm certainly no exception. I don't think of it as unusual as high aspirations and one hell of a lot of motivation appear to be prerequisites for an ADF pilot in general, the recruiters may even view these high aspirations (backed by the right leadership potential, etc.) as a good sign for a candidate. Just because I'm aiming for the jets definately doesn't mean that I wouldn't be absolutely stoked to find myself in the cockpit of a PC-9, Orion, Herc or any other military aircraft in some years time. I certainly don't doubt that its as much fun as piloting a fast jet.

A pilot is obviously an officerial position and as you stated leadership potential and trainability in many other aspects are absolutely essential. One would hope that by the conclusion of Assesment day all those that do not display whats needed of them to be an officer or do not recognise that their primary role is to be an officer and secondly a pilot have been told to go home and work on it and try again later or simply just to go home.

I can't ever remember seeing top gun, i think what really got to me as a kid was seeing the f-111 do their nap of the earth training down low in the hills and valleys where I live, it was certainly a sight to behold (if you managed to see them)

As per usual, if you disagree with what I've written then feel free to correct me, In fact there's quite a lot to gain from constructive criticism.

Cheers herkman, its good to have someone directly in the know about.

3rd May 2010, 14:56

You quite clearly have no understanding about flying Fast Jets and just resort to bagging them like most trashies. So i thought i should educate the hopefuls on this forum in regards to your statement.

"The first is leadership, coupled to management which is harder to gain when you are sitting there all by yourself. However to be part of a crew, which eventually you will lead as a Captain, multi engine experience will develope skills that you will rarely achieve quickly being a jet pilot."

When do fighters ever do something as a single ship? The answer is never in case you were wondering! You say that you will not get leadership experience as a Fast Jet pilot?

As a Multi pilot, sure you will be in charge of a crew, of probably 3, all in the same cockpit, a few feet from each other, working together to drive 1 aircraft around the sky, probably using auto pilot.

As a Fast Jet pilot, sure you will fly your own aircraft, as Captain. You will also lead up to 4-8 other aircraft in formation, making you responsible for not only your own aircraft, but 3 others. At the same time you will be working a radar, maintaining visual with your wingys, listening to GCI, and throwing rockets down range, all while handflying and with nobody sitting next to you to help. This is all before getting to a merge where things really start to get dynamic and difficult, oh by the way you are still required to lead your wingy through the fight and out the other side.

But i guess there is no leadership learnt flying fast Jets?

3rd May 2010, 20:56
I am sorry if you are so overcome with the desire to "Fly fast Jets" never in all my service with the force did I hear the way to describe our fighter/bomber aircraft in such a way, that nothing else counts.

Aircraft were always referred to by the name, and I think that too much top gun has impacted into the recruiting market.

If you are to fly such aircraft, you need to understand the between being a flight leader and a captain. To become a flight leader you will need to not only to be able to fly the aircraft at an above average standard (might suggest you will not attain that standard for several years after graduating from Pearce) but also will have demonstarted that you have the maturity for the position. Not every one becomes a flight lrader, the old saying many being called and but few are chosen.

However a Captain by both the RAAF and the CAA is a pilot in command, leading and managing a crew of up to ten staff, which will enable the aircraft to complete the task assigned.

I know that the air force knows quite early in ones career if you are going to make the top grade, and this is something that all aircrew mustering have to come to understand. They expect you to be an officer and manager first, and whilst the flying part is important and flying is important, you need to understand that General duties branch usually gets all the top rating jobs. It is important that one has the ability to perform secondary duties just as well.

Piloting often is less demanding than some of these secondary duties, and I suspect that many fail selection because of this. The air force does not go to head hunters and say we need a CAS or CO, these men are groomed over many years to fit these slots. There are pilots who cannot make the grade in this area and so they become 40 year old FLLT's really going no where.

The point that I was trying to make is that if you want a military career, then you have to be a manager and leader first and that needs to be part of your presenation.

Additionally the fighter force is really in the complete sense but a small part of the complement of aircraft types.

Not only can some aircraft types help you progress your career, and from reading this forum many many aspire to fighters, there fore is one displayed more latitude in choice, you may not have so many people to compete with.

In conclusion you need to also demonstrate flexability, the person you are when you enter the air force, will be nothing like the person you will become in say three to five years.

Remember well that our chief of defense made his mark in the helicopter area, and you would be hard pressed to find a better leader than Angus.

All the best


3rd May 2010, 21:02
Johnny- good luck with the RAN application, you may have wanted the other two options, but you haven't settled for third place by any means. Without getting into the my W*lly is bigger than yours competition that Herkman and Mr Keanas seem to enjoy :rolleyes: - being the Only pilot on the ship when it comes to flying the aircraft when required is excellent.
Embarked flying is so much more demanding than shore based stuff as you have all the ship (now where is my airfield??) considerations and you get to land it when you get back.
With the new helos coming, both of the contenders are pretty good and both have a missile capability- Hellfire on one of them, not to mention modern avionics!

I must be getting old, people who haven't heard of Top Gun! probably about time someone made a re-make.:ooh:

3rd May 2010, 22:42
Thanks pinger, I totally agree with you!

But hopefully those sitting above me in the pool have a desire to only fly the jets, so by all means keenas and others, keep talking up that option :ok:.

4th May 2010, 09:45
I'll take the choppers anyday. But the Army now says I'm 4cm too tall. :mad:

4th May 2010, 11:50
Apologies to the Forum if my point was lost in a bit of W*lly swinging.

I was trying to point out that you will also get valuable leadership experience from the Fast Jet world, and that just because you are in an aircraft on your own, doesn't mean that there is no Leadership/management involved.

Herkman makes a good point in regards to being an Officer first and Pilot second and you should definatley work hard to present this side of yourself, as secondary duties are an unfortunate reality no matter where you go.

For those aspiring to fly Fast Jets, if thats what you want, then go for it! Don't be affraid to tell your recruiters this, there is nothing wrong with aiming for the top! Besides you never know you may just make it!


4th May 2010, 12:15
The past few weeks have seemed pretty messy, by the looks of it I'd say a few egos have come to clash. I'd like to think that its still no good cause to disregard the past 6 months although it may be slightly distasteful.

I'm not writing off anything. You'll find that this thread has doubled in the last half a year, and its not because we've had a sudden influx of people posting the secrets of the selection process on here.

I'm of the opinion that the first half of this thread is the most helpful, and I'd seek out the appropriate people to clarify the rest. There are obviously some people that know what they're talking about in this thread that have completed the selection process. There are also some people (and you'll find these types at your flying clubs no doubt) that fit into the other category of "I have my PPL, but I know some military pilots therefore I'm a military pilot by association".

Its your choice, but be careful.

Edit: I agree with you on the Navy stuff, pinger. I'd love to fly Navy, but at the moment they aren't taking too many (hopefully will pick up when the new helos roll in). Totally disagree with the top gun remake though - I'm still waiting for the day I can watch a fast jet display without "Highway to the Danger Zone" blaring! :ok:

6th May 2010, 05:54
Hi all,

I have my Pilot Specific Testing coming up of the 17th of may and was hoping to gain more info on the maths tests.

I understand that there are two maths tests:
+one on estimation
+one on distance speed time

I have been reading back through the thread and see that the estimation exam involves dividing large numbers and multyplying decimals. Are all the questiions in this exam using numbers only or is there any algebra or other type of maths in it. What other style of questions are in it (percentages, fractions, addition etc)?

Second, is the distance speed time test just that plus fuel flow and burn calculations or anything else in there?

Also is there any other maths in these exams, or the future testing for that matter, that is not just numbers? I mean do I have to keep studying algebra, sohcahtoa, trig etc for these and future tests?
Any examples would be greatly appreciated

Thanks to all

Regards Jorocketoz

P.S. Gotta love the Pprune

6th May 2010, 07:27
Hi Jorocketoz,

You are right in saying that there are 2 types of the maths test. There are plenty examples online about speed/dist/time and from memory there is a pretty good link to a forum containing a whole bunch of speed/dist/time questions within this forum, which is quite helpful.

The other math test, containing things like small decimals multiplying large whole numbers etc, is more about getting your approximations right. Practice doing calculations very quickly and getting an answer within +/-20% of the actual answer, as the test is multi-choice, the correct choice (from a/b/c/d or e) will be within 10-20% of the actual answer... if that makes sense!

It is an interesting test to study for, as throughout high-school you are taught to get EXACT answers, but for this test you must work extremely quickly getting close to the actual answer; which is a totally different way of thinking compared to studying for a year 11 or 12 math test.

You don't do any maths testing during the Assessment day. I'm not sure about Flight Screening, which I am just about to do (leave this Saturday). I have a feeling they will tell me not to divulge any information about the OSB, just like I was told at my Army Reserve OSB. :)


10th May 2010, 14:42
Hi all,

First time writer, long time reader lol! anyways I've passed my Aptitude testing today - such a huge relief...calling tomorrow to book in my assessment day so about that - i know that they'll do the whole medical check etc and from reading this forum most ppl's questions about health have been regarding eye's and laser surgery on it etc... but what about teeth..i havent exactly been one to follow the dentists guidelines down to the bone and though dont have really bad teeth, mine do need some work..so is this something that can hold me back?

apologies for what might be a n00b question but better to cover my bases.

btw good luck to anyone else out there going through testing...i know how ya'll feel :)

10th May 2010, 14:52
I hope I'm posting this in the right forum, but I was hoping for some advice.

I have a YOU session with RAAF in a few weeks, and while I may already be getting ahead of myself, I'm a little concerned about my eyesight. I have a class 1 civil aviation medical from CASA which doesn't require me to wear glasses, however my eyesight is not perfect.

I have fine binocular vision (6/6), but on my class 1 medical from CASA, it deemed my right eye by itself 5/6 and my left eye by itself 4/6.

Anyone know if this is/isn't good enough to be an air force pilot in Australia?

10th May 2010, 22:56
The dental isn't done till after a successful FSP. If they find anything that needs doing, they will make you (out of your own pocket) rectify this before enlistment. I had mine at Raaf Amberley and seeing I hadn't been to the dentist in lets say, years, I got lucky and had no problems. Not so the guy before me who needed wisdom teeth out and a whole bunch of work which according to the dentist was going to be thousands! If you listened to your Mum and brush twice a day and you should be cool! :ok:

Arm out the window
10th May 2010, 23:06
so they become 40 year old FLLT's really going no where.

...and loving it!!:ok:

Well, 40 and a bit more.

Secondary duties and aiming for the top are all well and good, but I'd rather have an Air Force founded on experienced operators who know their primary job inside out than a system that puts more store on people going up through the rank structure in minimum time.

Sure, we need a pool of people to feed the future upper echelons of leadership, but keen motivated aircrew are a bloody good start in my view; the rest will follow.

Captain Sand Dune
11th May 2010, 02:40
I'd rather have an Air Force founded on experienced operators who know their primary job inside out
What?! Experienced? Know their jobs? Why, the wheel would grind to a stop!!

11th May 2010, 09:29

imagine people with experience, not just first tour, doing a job in the ADF. Hell, common sense and reasoning might break out and where would the head shed be then???

13th May 2010, 14:51

I am not entirely sure, but when I went in for my YOU Session and enquired about my eyesight, the nurse handed a sheet to me which I was initially asked to take to a eye clinic and have the doctor fill out after a test [And then later asked not to bother with it as I would have to do the medicals on assessment day anyway].
It specifies that an unaided 6/12 vision is acceptable, however you never know.

I havnt completed my specialist testing yet, which is on the 25th of this month. Ill update once I am informed of my situation after my medicals. My eyesight is on the border at 6/12 and can go either way.

13th May 2010, 15:28
@CJ - thanks for the info.

Buggery for me coz I do need a lil bit of work done - ahh well..i'll just add it to the credit card bill! I'll blame the sweet tooth lol!

nwys not sure if the assessment day qn's been asked but ne1 got ne advice for the day? was there a set structure to the tests? or did you have any kind of team activity on top of all the individual stuff? what did you guys get asked to talk about when you had to your 5 min speech or so...? oh and when you did your assessment - was it jus pilot v pilot from other services or were other job types involved?

Apologies for the question onslaught here...appreciate any answers you guys can give.

Good luck to all!!

13th May 2010, 16:27
@Septerra. Thanks heaps mate. Would be real helpful if you let me know! Good luck!

17th May 2010, 09:44
Hi everyone,

I just finished reading this thread (slowly) and am thinking about going in for my YOU session. I'm 16 and 6 months in 2 days, so that's the earliest I can go to DFR to get started. I was just after peoples opinions as to how soon I should start.

I understand that it can take months in between steps and longer if there are any problems. My goal is to start ADFA in 2012, my first year out of school. So I figure for that to happen it will be a stretch no matter what. My main concerns are that my current year 11 grades, while they meet the minimum requirements, are not as good as they could be and defiantly not as good as I want them in my HSC year.

Secondly, would going in there before I'm 17 be a deterrent at all? I would hope they see it as motivation, but I can also understand how they would see it as a negative.

I have noticed there are a few others here around my age as well, what do you guys think? Would love to hear from anyone else also.


Dilmah G
17th May 2010, 11:24
G'day mate,

Well, since my $0.02 was asked for.. :ok:

I know of guys and girls who've applied around about mid-way through Year 12, so perhaps if you were to put some work in between now and then and apply it may help you a little bit? Regardless, I doubt it'd be much of a worry if you were getting A's and B's (though I don't have first-hand experience to really comment). There are a few posters on the cadet forum who do stress grades a fair bit when talking to applicants about ADFA-entry aircrew specializations, though.

I share the same concerns as you do over my grades, as I'm not exactly an academic superstar. Personally, I don't believe being 16 will be a disadvantage to you as long as you come off as a mature personality -> I'd assume the psych would destroy the kind of bloke who says he wants to be a pilot because he'd "Get to shoot shit!" :p

17th May 2010, 13:09

Sorry perhaps I should have been more clear, I intend on applying for ADFA pilot, preferably starting in 2012. I figure that to get into the pool with a chance of being picked for 2012, I would need at least a year from the YOU session, which would mean applying towards the end of this year at the latest. Just to be safe I figure I should apply sooner.

My main concern is whether they use my current grades for the entire process, if I can update them when I get new ones or do they only change for my HSC ATAR mark?

If anyone has any insight that would be great, DFR are being very vague about this.


18th May 2010, 00:57

good thinking. Given some of the post on here about recruiting you are safer allowing a lot of time for lost paperwork, incorrect info and a slow process.

What you provide is what they will use but no doubt you can update this info.
The first part of the process after recruiting is to get a spot on an FSP course. All the info you provide is looked at and you can update this when you have new stuff. Unless you have finished YR 12 than you ATAR will not be avaible and therefore does not help in getting an FSP spot.

Good luck

18th May 2010, 07:18
My advice, being a current ADFA applicant, is to apply at the start of year 12. Ie Term 4 of year 11 (but since year 11 is only 3 terms).
Around september or october.

I think the process is more streamlined for ADFA applicants, than it is for DE.

18th May 2010, 08:44

Not trying to have a go at you, but why do you think it is better then?


18th May 2010, 09:25
-***You have all your year 11 reports***
-Thats when most ADFA education award people do it, so you get streamlined.
-Gives you heaps of time to prepare for each part

Alternatively you can apply up to December?the year before.
Bit more rushed that way

18th May 2010, 13:04
Totally agree with finestkind, I put in my application first term in Year 11. It gave me plenty of time to sort out paperwork and medicals before having to juggle it with the stress of year 12. If you don't have any hang-ups on medical or missing/incomplete paperwork then your probably a minority. I also just realised that I applied before 16 yrs 6 months of age, obviously no problem there.

My grades are not exactly spectacular (B's, B+'s at the best of times). Having better grades would likely make you a more competetive candidate althoug keep in mind it's definately not the only thing you're asessed on. My advice is simply to put in your best at school and show to the recruiters that you've got the ablility the work hard and get results (improvement in grades).

Best of Luck


numbers guy- "ne1", took me a while to figure that one, might want to watch the engritch there.:bored:

The Assesment day is simple (in a DFR simple kind of way), I think you may have this mixed up with other parts of the selection process. Its comprised of a Psycological examination (having a 'little' chat with a slightly creepy bloke who sits dead upright and has freaky eyes), Brief Medical Examination (Height, Weight, BMI, Urine test, eyesight, hearing test and ECG), Full Body Medical Examination (be prepared to waddle like a duck in your jocks) and a Defence Interview where the questions will probably vary from person to person (If you know your stuff and are fairly confident this can actually be an interesting conversation)

19th May 2010, 10:37
Hello again,

Got my Pilot specific testing this Tuesday [25th May]. From all the information I was able to gather from here and PPRUNE, I have prepared myself for general math based calculations, speed-distance-time, basic aircraft information, few hours on Microsoft FS in order to get used to the instruments, and a pdf of one of the Solomon Weiner USAF books.

Any other pointers or suggestions from you guys would be appreciated. Gives me the weekend to review if I have missed out on anything. Want to make sure I get this right, rather than ending up wasting another year doing stuff I dont enjoy before I can resit it.


20th May 2010, 08:55
Having gone through the Pilot Aptitude tests and passing (thank goodness), I'd say to anyone doing it that the biggest thing to try and do is just relax and make sure you answer the questions correctly. Googling Pilot Aptitude tests did help me somewhat and just practice doing quick calculations in your head...

Anyways I've got a few questions regarding my med test- I handed it in at my YOU session and had the nurse call me about it the other day - I've now got an Assessment day coming up...

1) Firstly I've broken a bone in my elbow last year which has healed now - i've got the x-ray and initial report but am completely ok now...has anyone something similar to this:) and did you have to prove that your 100% now during the med screen??

2) Also, have any pilots gone through despite having asthma or anything similar??? I used to have symptoms of this but am now perfectly ok - I run 40-50km a week but listed it in my med history...

3) Do they do the dental check at the assessment day or is it before you enlist?

I really want to get past this because I know I have the potential to do well in the interviews and really want to get to FSP.

Anyways good luck to all going through!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

22nd May 2010, 01:22
Having gone through the Pilot Aptitude tests and passing (thank goodness), I'd say to anyone doing it that the biggest thing to try and do is just relax and make sure you answer the questions correctly. Googling Pilot Aptitude tests did help me somewhat and just practice doing quick calculations in your head...

Anyways I've got a few questions regarding my med test- I handed it in at my YOU session and had the nurse call me about it the other day - I've now got an Assessment day coming up...

1) Firstly I've broken a bone in my elbow last year which has healed now - i've got the x-ray and initial report but am completely ok now...has anyone something similar to thishttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif and did you have to prove that your 100% now during the med screen??

2) Also, have any pilots gone through despite having asthma or anything similar??? I used to have symptoms of this but am now perfectly ok - I run 40-50km a week but listed it in my med history...

3) Do they do the dental check at the assessment day or is it before you enlist?

I really want to get past this because I know I have the potential to do well in the interviews and really want to get to FSP.

Anyways good luck to all going through!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

A friend of mine didnt pass the medical because he too broke his elbow, even though he broke it like 10 years earlier.

I think he said it was because later in life it can cause arthritis.

But i may be wrong:ok:

Captain Sand Dune
22nd May 2010, 04:44
Can anyone who has successfully appealed an initial "medically unfit" decision by DFR please send me a PM.
I don't know the details of your case. However you may want to consider dispensing with the "appeal" mentality should you make it to Tamworth. We have more than enough frustrated lawyers here as it is.

23rd May 2010, 13:06
Hi Guys,

I just got back from Flight Screening on Saturday and I am stoked to say that I got recommended for RAAF! Thanks to those who have answered my questions and thanks to those who have posted useful information Re: FSP.

The whole program is interesting, intense and very enjoyable at the same time!! Prepare yourself and don't underestimate any component of the course! We all had a great time and you make some great mates during the course.

If anyone has any questions, I am happy to answer them!

More right rudder! ;)



23rd May 2010, 13:46
:ok:Congratulations man. I hope to go through what you are going through in the near future.

25th May 2010, 00:00

I hope all goes well. Look forward to it too!

25th May 2010, 00:27
Hi ellioy, BIG CONGRATS!!! that is awesome!! I am waiting to get a date for FS and it's killing me... was wondering how long you had to wait to find out? Was wondering too how big was the group you went through with and did many pass??
Again, congrats!!!!! :) :)

25th May 2010, 01:14
Hey guys,

Congratulations Ellioy!!

Just after some information around what your assessment day was like?
More around the interview, what type of questions did they ask?
Did you need to know specs around aircrafts or just more what squardrons fly them and what base they are found?
Did they ask you about all aircrafts or just the one your interested in?

I'm learning as much as i can as i have my assessment day in 2 weeks, however don't want to waste my time on things i don't really need to know (well for assessment day).

Thanks in advance

25th May 2010, 03:57
Hi LaRoux,

Thanks mate. As for your questions; The waiting time varies, some people have had to wait for months (I've heard of some people waiting for 8 months). I got in fairly quickly, only waiting about 2-3 weeks after my assessment day for a call.

This shouldn't discourage you though, as some FSP courses are more competitive to get into that others. For example, the courses in August are fairly competitive to get a place in because there is a back-log of Dossiers to get through since there is a big gap between ADFA courses and DEO courses. Only 6 DEO courses remain until the end of the year, so naturally a fair few applicants want to get on those courses.

Our course size was 9 candidates strong; 7 got recommended and 2 didn't get recommended. Of the people who got recommended, 3 were going for RAAF and 4 were going for rotary wing (Navy or Army). Keep in mind that a recommendation doesn't guarantee a job (unfortunately!); it is now a waiting game for me.

Mvdia1: As you have probably gathered from previous posts; Know as much as you can. For me, I was asked a lot of questions regarding the training (from OTS until Conversion) and what operations are going on at the moment. Know each aircraft in service and where they are located. Also brush up on leadership knowledge and things like that. Having said that, expect the unexpected!


25th May 2010, 04:39
Thanks for the reply...

Do you know what happens to the 2 people that didn't get recommended?
Do they get offered other officer roles?

25th May 2010, 04:55
gday mvdia1,

I was on the same fsp as Elliot and to answer your question, No, unfortunalety the 2 guys did not get recommended for any other officer role. As far as im aware though, they are allowed to apply for other officer roles if they like though.

Big congrats to all the guys that did get recommended, and hopefully ill be seeing elliot and aidan at OTS in the very near future!

Just a big thanks to everyone that has posted useful information on the flightscreen program, i found it very imformative and useful!


25th May 2010, 05:06
Thanks for the reply,

During FSP was there any maths that you were tested on?
Or was it more based around your ability to learn and fly?

25th May 2010, 05:53

They are looking at how well you can learn to fly, both the rate at which you learn and your ability to recall things learnt in a previous flight/lesson. The course is designed to be hard, so what they do is throw massive amounts of information at you and then seeing how well you can apply that info practically.

Deano! Hope all is well with you and hopefully see you soon buddy.


25th May 2010, 06:13
What Ellioy says is pretty much it. Its also designed so that you have to prioritise your study, and they conduct the briefs/debriefs/flights in such a way that both the top scoring candidate and the lowest scoring candidate on our course felt pretty much the same regarding their performance (ie. they push you hard regardless).

25th May 2010, 06:47
Hey guys,

Done the spec testing and got the marks required for all aircrew roles in the three services. However, just a quick question. I asked the person conducting the tests about the eyesight requirements before leaving and she mentioned that nothing less than a 20/20 was acceptable for pilots. But isnt there a flexibility, along the lines of - 10/20 unaided and 20/20 aided. She wasnt a medical personnel of any sort, and she said it was as far as she knew, so I thought maybe she dint know. Just wondering if anyone is aware of this flexibility in eye sight requirements? I am going to keep preparing for the asssessment day [havn't received a date yet] instead of stressing out about my eyesight, but it would be good to know.


25th May 2010, 08:35
Congrats Ellioy and Romper. :ok:
Just curious, The guys on your course going Army, do they meet the new height requirements? Just interested to know how many guys that do "fit" are coming through.

25th May 2010, 08:51

Out of the 4 rotary wing guys, one guy fit the height requirements for the army. He had quiet the unusual body type though! Very long arms and legs with a short body, i guess he was around 6ft tall.

Thanks for the congrats mate.


26th May 2010, 06:03
Hello guys
Is anyone due for FSP on the 29th May?

27th May 2010, 06:42
Romper, just wondering what have you being doing for employement before applying for the Airforce and how long ago did you apply?

What were your other preferences?

Its great to see at 31 you made it through :) congratulations.

i guess when they say 27 it's just a guide, not concrete.

27th May 2010, 08:11
Gday guys and girls,

Thanks for the well wishes!

Ive been working for 13.5 years at Bluescope steel's port kembla site south of wollongong in a mechanical engineering role. Originally starting as a mechanical engineering trainee, my role has evolved from a technical/engineering role to a leadership and people management role, which has greatly assisted me through the selection process.

I started the application process about 14 months ago, so it has taken a while, but, its definately worth the wait! I was and still am prepared to do whatever it takes to obtain a spot!

I had no other preferences going through the selection process, having my heart set on RAAF DEO pilot only. Luckily, so far, i have been successful!


27th May 2010, 10:01
So you've already recieved an offer, or you're now waiting in the pool?

Either way, nice work.

27th May 2010, 11:39

Im waiting in the pool mate. I finished FSP on saturday just gone. Offers went out on mon/tues this week for the RAAF, navy and army. The next round of offers are in November so im told, so thats the distribution im waiting for!


27th May 2010, 12:34
Pretty much what dean said; I called the Admino at PSA this afternoon and she informed me that distributions had taken place for Army, Navy and RAAF on Monday/Tues, so if you didn't get a call, you will be waiting until next distribution. The admin officer did also add that the distribution for RAAF was smaller this time (GFC? Too many pilots? Not enough pilot leaving? Who knows...)


27th May 2010, 12:45
Are those DEO offers only?
When I was at flight screening for observers a few weeks back, I was told that ADFA observers wouldn't be notified till November/December anyway because there was still one more course to go through (mind you I was recommended)

28th May 2010, 00:14
Sorry, Dean and I were talking about DEO only! I have no idea about ADFA or Observer distributions!


28th May 2010, 01:33
No idea about observers. I know we're in a completely different selection pool from ADFA candidates, and that they are notified very late in the year. Looking at the schedule, I'd say they are notified in December and some in January.

Well guys, we've got a big wait ahead of us for Nov. Lets hope that one is moved forward too, and we get what we're after :ok:

Edit: For those wondering what happens at the end of FSP, there are three categories: first is you're recommended (good enough flying and officer scores), second is to do with your officer qualities and requires you to wait a period of time before you come back (a year, 18 months .ect), and the final one is not recommended (usually something to do with officer qualities, since you don't really "fail" the flight component). You can't ever re-apply if you're in the third category. Obviously it depends on your OSB as to whether you'll be welcome to have a shot at another officer position.

28th May 2010, 06:15
Romper, have you been participating in any sports lately?

how do you keep fit with the job you had/have?

Sorry if these are strange questions, it's just very inspiring to see someone your age (not stating you are old, but the fact they prefer 27 max age) is great and gives me hope that if unsuccessful first time i can be patient and try again.

I have my assessment day in one week so just a bit anxious and 'strange thoughts' running through my head...haha


28th May 2010, 07:01


Dont worry mate im not easily offended, particularly about my age! Im also happy to report i was not the oldest on my FSP!

No i dont play sports mate, but make a effort to keep healthy with running, walking etc etc and eating right... used to train weights aswell. I do it to keep my class 1 medical for civil aviation.

Good luck on your assesment day mate, just show them your motivated and you will be fine.


30th May 2010, 04:39
Yeah, if you're getting told it's a bit of a wait between FSP and commencing OTS I wouldn't be too surprised. Over here at 2FTS we just had a brief on how overstaffed the RAAF currently is for pilots. It's that bad that we're even being offered transfers to the other services (even discharge post-wings if you're really keen to get out), not to mention they're looking at cancelling the next 2FTS course.

Pretty standard, really, the airlines haven't really been recruiting so there's a lot of senior guys who would normally have left but haven't. Just wait - by the time you guys finish 2FTS all you'll be hearing about is how few pilots we have because everybody left for Qantas all at the same time.

For reference, I went through in '08, when the airlines had just finished recruiting heavily. FSP August 2008, then OTS October '08, BFTS April '09, 2FTS Nov '09 and wings by September if I can stay away from scrub rides. Trainee leave between courses = 4 months of paid holidays in two years = pretty much a dream run, except that then we get a 12-24 month wait for conversion. You win some, you lose some...

30th May 2010, 05:30

Thanks for the info - I've also heard they cancelled 2 BFTS courses this year. Apparently the RAAF didn't take on too many people from the FSP pool in the May distribution; I certainly didn't get a call!

I am hoping they take on a few more people in the November distribution. If I don't get a call then, do I have to sit the OSB again to remain in the pool for another 12 months?

30th May 2010, 09:25

You'll sit in the pool for 12 months. If you don't receive an offer, your file is sent back to DFR in which case you have to apply again through them.

After finishing FSP around 54 weeks ago I received an Army offer, then was told I'm too tall. Before the recent Navy intake I was told I should probably definitely get a call for Navy, which never happened. About to apply again this week through DFR and hoping to sit another OSB sometime before the end of the year.

Hopefully the market picks up for the airlines and they start recruiting again before the end of the year...

30th May 2010, 10:30
Hey Johnny.
I hear ya man. I'm in the same boat at the moment although I still have a few months left in the pool. Army was what I dreamed of but as you say, now too tall.
When you re-apply, do you have to sit all the tests again, or just OSB?

30th May 2010, 11:48
Hey cj,

As I recall, it depends on how long the results from previous tests stay valid - just like the OSB result (12 months). If only the Flying Score had a shorter longevity than FOREVER and I could undertake FSP again!

I'll let you know what happens.

30th May 2010, 12:20

I was told that the spec. testing is valid for three years [did mine this week].

In regards to my application, I have been told that they arnt sure if I can proceed on to Assessment day without a full citizenship [I am currently a Permanent Resident due for citizenship April next year]. Its been referred to the relevant official and informed that Ill receive a call regarding this in a week or so.

Im hoping this is just to get a confirmation before proceeding. Anyone done it this way before? i.e. complete the recruiting process with a residency.

31st May 2010, 15:49
Hi all,

Quick question: Has anyone changed their secondary preferences after they passed pilot aptitude testing? I've put down Army pilot as a secondary but re-thinking it for another role in the RAAF as an ACO. Hesitant about it though as I'm not sure it would look good going into my assessment day (coming up soon).

Any insight is as always, much appreciated.

Cheers all.

PS: having read the last few posts of guys who've passed FSP (Romper and Ellioy), congratulation fellas :D, I sure do hope you have success when November comes around!