View Full Version : RAAF Flight Screening Programme

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31st Mar 2012, 08:49
Hi all,

Latest update is that hubby finished flight screening last week and was recommended, which was great news.

Now just waiting for the call/letter - lets hope there is one!


1st Apr 2012, 05:08
That's awesome, congrats!
I can't wait for the inevitable day when I'll be doing the same.

Just a general question to anyone who wishes to contribute; how did you deal with the two weeks off from work? I imagine I will just tell the boss straight-up.

1st Apr 2012, 22:25
Dingo, this is my predicament at the moment. Basically I couldn't imagine any full time employer would appreciate an employee taking 2 weeks leave for FSP. I have asked for annual leave for travel reasons only (the less they know the better). It really depends on your situation.

If you do tell them, make sure your job will not be compromised. Best of luck.


4th Apr 2012, 02:57
So guys I'm finally among the people that have got the call for the FSP ;)

Anybody going to the 29th April one? PM me if you are.

FYI to others, I never received a letter saying they had my file with a number to call or anything. Just got a call two months after my assessment day saying come on down.

Thanks to you all!

Genisis Dreaming
5th Apr 2012, 07:36
Having recently being lucky enough to attend FSP, can I just say what an amazing two weeks it is.

The flying you will do you will never forget (unless you get in :}), but to anyone that makes it to Tamworth for FSP, well done. The ADF are spending a lot of money to get you there, so sit back, keep your eyes and ears open, be a sponge, work hard and most importantly, enjoy yourself!

Know when to talk, and when to shut up.

Good luck everyone.

8th Apr 2012, 11:56

Sorry, couldn't resist it!

8th Apr 2012, 12:58
grusome in some cases people post and their spelling is so bad that it's awkward and you can tell they have no chance with interviews etc based on their knowledge of the English language.

This however is not such a case and your post is both snobbish and unwelcome.

Captain Sand Dune
9th Apr 2012, 00:04
Well then, I guess he has just recieved his first helpful hint!:}

9th Apr 2012, 08:21
Sorry mate for that, I thought we were all friends here!

In regards to your original questions, I can't help much because I'm a DEO entrant and as such haven't been in the ADF before. But I can tell you about the standard tests for outside applicants, although it has been covered in a fair bit of detail in the thread already. I haven't spotted an in-service applicant yet on this thread, but maybe some of the experienced people who are actually in/have been in as pilots or have been involved in the process can comment?

Where are you up to in your process? As far as the normal applications go it's YOU -> Specific pilot testing -> Assessment day -> Any additional medical stuff -> FSP -> Service if all goes well. I don't know how it differs for you.

9th Apr 2012, 09:09
1Live2Fly PM sent

10th Apr 2012, 00:48
Hi guys,

Has anyone recently had any interaction with Aviation Medicine in regards to Army pilot sitting height?
I completed my Assessment Day for this role on Thursday and was recommended, unfortunately my sitting height is 96.5cm and the max on Defence Jobs is 92cm but I know this has been jumping all over the place.
The doc is sending my profile to Av Med for the final word, my dimensions for everything else are fine.
The thing that surprised me was I recently visited Oakey and pretty much all the guys going through the courses were taller than me, I am around 182cm.
I know in previous posts this has been the nail in the coffin for applicants, I hope this is not the case.


10th Apr 2012, 07:37

sitting height for ARA is in the process of being ratified. It will only be a show stopper if you are above the new limit and only want ARA.

10th Apr 2012, 08:16

I enlist tomorrow and I'm 95cm. I met a girl today who is also enlisting tomorrow but has sitting height of 97.5cm. She is going out to Oakey for a cockpit assessment in the Kiowa to see if she 'fits'

12th Apr 2012, 04:35
Thanks for your replies guys, this gives me hope.

cj0203, does that mean you're in the July RMC intake?

Is the only reason the sitting height is so low due to the Kiowa?
If so, why would they deny someone this role for something they will only beflying for 6 months in their career?

It’s interesting that they are going to see if she fits after she enlists, you’d think it’d be the other way around.

12th Apr 2012, 04:37
It's always important to remember that from their point of view, there is no shortage of applicants. Even if they said you had to get a huge facial tattoo and a couple of fingers amputated they'd probably still get too many applicants :P

12th Apr 2012, 05:12
Damn it, I thought the doctor was joking when he gave me a referal to the tattoo parlour to get med class 1...

12th Apr 2012, 09:03
During both my YOU Session and Assessment Day (29-Mar-12), there was a point where someone said, "Hmm... your sitting height is probably too tall for Army. We better check...". After finding I was 94.5cm, they went off and checked the details of the limit. Both times they came back and said I was okay, as the 92-95cm range is acceptable, though a waiver would need to be issued. I presume that waiver didn't have to come from AVMED, because the issue didn't come up again and I've already been told my file is ready to be sent to the PSA.

Given cj0203 has met an Amazonian (potential) Army Pilot, and that being 94.5cm didn't cause too much fuss, suggests all is not lost for you, Mooch. You have my sympathy, though. I know what it's like to have your case awaiting judgement at AVMED. :uhoh:

It's worth noting the waiver system is not simple... well, not from my perspective, anyway :). For example, I don't know if I've been issued a waiver, or just recommended for a waiver at some future point in the process.

13th Apr 2012, 09:05

I'm SSO and heading to RMC on the 21st of this month. BFTS course starts in August. As for the sitting height, yes it's due to Kiowa and the limit is in the process of being reviewed again.

13th Apr 2012, 14:45
Mooch, hilarious. You should get in on your sense of humour as a morale booster alone. I wish you luck with the sitting height. I'm a RAAF applicant so I think I'm OK with that height, didn't really pay attention because I'm not very tall to begin with. But best of wishes. Can you appeal to get measured again? If it's really that close it's the kind of thing you might be able to qualify for by taking the test at the end of the day having stood a lot and after having had your mate squash your spine for a bit!!!

14th Apr 2012, 12:07
...and after having had your mate squash your spine for a bit!!!
Now the RAAF is an equal opportunity, non-discriminatory employer, AND we don't have the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, but do you have to rub it in everyone's face? (So to speak...) :yuk:

16th Apr 2012, 22:38
My appeal against my Class 4 has now been in the system for six weeks and I still have no response. After contacting the medical section in my DFRC, I was told that there is nothing I can do to speed things up and that sometimes it takes longer than the time limit they originally gave me (two to six weeks).
I am not pleased because my life is on hold until I know what is happening. All they have is a letter from me, an orthopaedic assessment and notes from a radiologist and everything says my elbow is perfect.

Regardless of what I have been told by the medical section, does anyone here know of anything I can do to speed up the process?

17th Apr 2012, 03:35
Unfortunately you're stuck in the DFR time vacuum now.

17th Apr 2012, 07:22
Unfortunately you're stuck in the DFR time vacuum now.

Bummer. How frustrating. :ugh:

19th Apr 2012, 07:16
Having watched this thread for quite a few years, I'm still blown away by the number of people that are too slack to sift through this thread for the gouge, yet claim that they'd do anything to realise their lifelong dream of becoming an ADF pilot... Its a fraction of the effort you'll need to put in before lunch during flight training, let alone the following decade of your career!

This thread is a goldmine of information, if you take the time then you'll know more than enough to tackle the selection process.

19th Apr 2012, 10:57
It is indeed a gold mine and definitely worth a read through.

But let's think of this thread like a crowded building and each page is a floor (that's a minimum of 108 floors to date). These floors aren't categorised or uniform in their distribution of information.
Now let's say, you are tasked with finding a specific piece of information on one of those floors, but you don't know which floor it is on. You're told there's a directory on the 108th floor (this 'directory' being the collective knowledge of the people contributing to this thread and an individual's ability to ask questions - just so there is no ambiguity).
Are you going to take the stairs and search each floor, or are you going to take the elevator first and ask at the directory?

Just to make things more complicated, there's always the potential to find outdated information. Asking could resolve such issues.

I have read this thread through from first to last page and I most certainly cannot remember everything, I also see the benefit in making sure that details are up to date. If people don't want to contribute then that is their prerogative, but there has recently been a negative undercurrent from a minority that has the potential to scare off newcomers who may wish to ask questions but feel discouraged by such negative comments. You may not have meant to discourage questions and I may have misinterpreted it, but this is the impression I got.

While I'm on this subject, thanks to everyone that has taken the time to share their knowledge with me (via the thread and PM) and answer my questions. I greatly appreciate it. If and when I am a pilot in the ADF, I will pass the buck down in kind :ok:

19th Apr 2012, 22:27
The tests and selection process haven't changed and won't be changing any time soon, which is what most are asking about. The first half (if that) of this thread will clear up those questions. The medical (ie. Army height restrictions) questions are different.

I enjoyed your amusing building analogy, even if condescending. Now what if I told you that building had a search function that could find anyone in the building, and that someone who is a current RAAF pilot is standing there at the bottom floor telling you that in order to give yourself the best shot you ought to check out each floor. I posted that advice because being one of the few that has been involved in this thread since the beginning and has used/contributed to the information it contains, I know that it has very specific details on all of the selection process. But hey it got me through a few years back and I have since helped a number of candidates that ended up getting selected, so what would I know.

If it was too direct for you, then you're going to struggle with debriefs. Get out a pen, go through the thread and write down all the things you think are important. Yes, the job is good enough to read 100 pages for, trust me.

20th Apr 2012, 02:42
I completely agree that it is worth a read through and I don't question your positive contributions. I merely think questions are good and productive.

Torque Monkey
20th Apr 2012, 10:24
They are.

If someone is outside of the system, they have no idea if the system has changed. They most certainly have and will continue to do so as capability, funding and manning change. Asking questions can help identify these changes.

20th Apr 2012, 11:34
You've missed the point. "Hey guys I just started the process, what sort of tests are at YOU session and specialist testing?" isn't an attempt to ascertain whether the system has changed.

On a lighter note, congrats oneflewnorth. Waiting in the pool is pretty excruciating, but no doubt you'll get the spot you worked for.

22nd Apr 2012, 01:24
Agreed, Mudrat.

1103 days after initially applying I have finally been offered a flight screening spot! Anyone else on the 5th of May course? PM if you are. To everyone else, best of luck! Patience really is a virtue you know.

28th Apr 2012, 07:48
Hi all,

First post. In the process of being processed.

I have heard that the FSP course has been changes. Does anyone have any idea on if this is true.

3rd May 2012, 09:56
1103 days after initially applying I have finally been offered a flight screening spot! Anyone else on the 5th of May course? PM if you are. To everyone else, best of luck! Patience really is a virtue you know

Out of curiosity, is it common to take this long to get to Flight screening?

Im in year 12 currently and just wondering what subjects and extra curricular activities the average RAAF pilot would of done when they were at high school? (i know the minimum requirements and i do meet them, just interested to see what could help me be more competitive).

I also would prefer to go through direct officer entry but i do realize that they usually dont accept the younger ones in because of "lack of life experience" but have they accepted anyone in who is 18, 19, 20 year's old recently?

3rd May 2012, 10:25
Hi pull-up

1103 days is definitely not the norm, while I am not aware of Zeddy's specific situation, he may have had medical or educational problems to overcome before being put into the flight screening pool. Generally those who have good grades, perform well at the YOU session and assessment day and are deemed a competitive candidate will be given priority for a slot at flight screening.

As for extra curricular activities, my suggestion is to take on as much as you can without sacrificing your grades. Having a busy schedule is a good look as life in the military can be quite hectic. I would suggest air cadets, a team sport and a community service of some description. Hobbies are a good way to show your enthusiasm, for instance, remote control models, plastic modelling (VERY handy for the selection process ;)) or even reading magazines.

And don't worry about your age, I personally know a couple of blokes who have been selected recently for DEO who are 17 years of age.

Hope this helps and good luck...

3rd May 2012, 22:08
Hi pull-up

1103 days is definitely not the norm, while I am not aware of Zeddy's specific situation, he may have had medical or educational problems to overcome before being put into the flight screening pool. Generally those who have good grades, perform well at the YOU session and assessment day and are deemed a competitive candidate will be given priority for a slot at flight screening.

As for extra curricular activities, my suggestion is to take on as much as you can without sacrificing your grades. Having a busy schedule is a good look as life in the military can be quite hectic. I would suggest air cadets, a team sport and a community service of some description. Hobbies are a good way to show your enthusiasm, for instance, remote control models, plastic modelling (VERY handy for the selection process http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif) or even reading magazines.

And don't worry about your age, I personally know a couple of blokes who have been selected recently for DEO who are 17 years of age.

Hope this helps and good luck...

Cheers, thank for that. I have that covered.

Just wondering, after completing your training in the RAAF what is the chances of ending up on the 737 BBJ or the new A330 as a pilot (as in are those planes least popular because everyone probably wants to fly the FA-18's)?

4th May 2012, 00:50
Well it took 8 weeks, but I finally got a response from DFR Medical Section/Chief Medical Officer/Aviation Medical that my appeal was successful!

So for those that may be concerned in the future, it is possible to be a pilot if you have broken your elbow in the past! I know someone far back in this thread mentioned that their friend didn't get in because of the same thing.

Now I'm off to have a great weekend after a very stressful two months :}

5th May 2012, 11:29
Hey all!

Firstly, thanks to everyone who has made posts in here! As everyone has stated, its a great place to pick up information!

I have one question in particular that i am curious about... I am just beginning my application for DEO, and i am worried about a medical issue.. migraines.. now i realise this could potentially take me out of the hunt.. however i suffered from them primarily when i was 14/15 going through puberty etc.. I am now 24 and over the past 8/9 years have had less than 3.. I do however no what causes them to be brought on..

Any information/advice?? :ugh:??


Dilmah G
5th May 2012, 11:37
Mate, two things:

1. Mate of mine was classed 3R over migraines (temporarily unfit for mil service, pending specialist medical reports) and after a spec medical report was reclassified to 1 (fit to serve), so I think you should be fine. He had about the same amount of migraines as you've had in your life and was about 7 years younger. He's currently a Reserve Rifleman so I think if he was alright with that, you should be alright with yours.

2. Be careful about what else you put down on your questionnaire. I was offered a position as a part-time GSO by my selection board but a week before my appointment date was Class 4'd because I have an allergy to peanuts. It was erroneously classified as severe when in actual fact it's mild, but as some very recent posts have alluded to, the medical appeal process is long, stressful, and expensive and I would avoid going down that route at all costs.

5th May 2012, 11:50
Cheers for that mate!

Yeah that was the main thing that i was concerned with.. so i think i will just get ahead of the game and book in with a neurologist so i have the report good to go and hopefully save myself a bunch of time!

Dilmah G
5th May 2012, 12:05
That's a VERY good idea!

I don't have the form with me anymore but I found basically an ad verbatim copy of what the ADF like addressed by specialist medical reports, so hopefully this'll help when you rock up:

1. Confirm the nature of the problem/diagnosis.

2. Describe the limitations it places upon the applicants functional capacity.

3. Describe any limitations upon duties because of safely considerations (eg. inability to work alone or at heights, necessity to practice 'universal precautions').

4.What is the medium and long term prognosis for the condition?

5.Does the condition require any ongoing medication, specialist review or potential demands on the ADF as a health care provider?

Of course a simple letter that doesn't say too much other than 'this man is basically fine' that you hand to your doctor at the medical may do the trick. Either way, I hope it goes well for you mate.

5th May 2012, 22:07
I don't have the form with me anymore but I found basically an ad verbatim copy of what the ADF like addressed by specialist medical reports, so hopefully this'll help when you rock up
That's interesting because when I went to an orthopaedic surgeon for an assessment, he expected a letter with details of what they wanted to hear but DFR never sent me anything to that effect.

6th May 2012, 01:12
I'm at FSP at the moment and I'll just let everyone know that the course has changed. It is similar but different in some respects to the past. There are now 3 streams: Basic, Intermediate and Advanced. Basic gets 8 flights, intermediate 7 and advanced 6. Not only does advanced have to do more stuff they have to do it in less flights. It has been changed to respond to the fact that too many low hour applicants were failing and too many 50+ hour guys were getting through.

I'll put more details up when I've finished. Let me tell you all though that the course is bloody awesome and great fun with a good group of people.

6th May 2012, 06:35
Hi yossarian88,

Any news when offers are coming out? I believe RAAF offers went out recently however am wondering about Army and Navy?


6th May 2012, 08:23
Thanks for that y88

How does that work? Didny you get 10 flights as a basic and an advance before????

6th May 2012, 10:44
Yeah not sure how it used to be but I think it was 10 and 8 for normal and advanced.

As far as they've told us, RAAF distribution is not for a looong time but army and navy are coming up in the next couple of weeks.

Essentially RAAFies can expect to be starting next year if they are good enough for an offer now. Army/Navy could be starting much earlier.

6th May 2012, 12:24

I was on the same FSP course as your husband Dave (I'm Cam). I called PSA the other week and was told that the Navy distribution is being decided in the last week of May.

6th May 2012, 19:59
Thanks guys. Fingers crossed!

7th May 2012, 12:26
Well, thought it was time I gave an update.
I got made an offer back in early April for the end of May RAAF intake! So pending my final medicals and so on it should all be happening. Thanks to everyone on here for their help. It's been a long process, all up taking 2.5 years, and now it all seems to be happening so quickly.

7th May 2012, 21:54
Hi Oneflewnorth,

Congratulations - well done. It's definitely a long process but well worth it when you get "that" call - something we are hoping will come along soon.

I think you may have been on Flight Screening with my husband? He has had his medicals and we believe they are all ok.

Would be a dream come true if he actually receives a call for Army or Navy.

Heres hoping :)

Hope you have a blast and it's everything you expected it to be!

8th May 2012, 00:35
Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and have just passed through my assessment session around a week ago. I was notified by my case manager that I received a high recommendation (although I believe they say that to keep you motivated) and my file has been sent out to PSA.

My case manager has put me through to a pilot officer and she has explained as much as she could about FSP. I'm assuming you have heard it over a hundred times but if I could get some information from anyone who is experienced or undertaken the program, I'd be very thankful.

I have also heard that just because you have passed your assessment session, it does not mean you are going to be given a spot on the FSP. Are there any specific characteristics they look for in an application that would give you a better chance of receiving an offer?


8th May 2012, 08:36
Just wondering, after completing your training in the RAAF what is the chances of ending up on the 737 BBJ or the new A330 as a pilot (as in are those planes least popular because everyone probably wants to fly the FA-18's)?

It's up to how well you do on pilots course and what's available. There are prob more people after a kc30 spot than jets much to the frustration ofACG

12th May 2012, 11:27
Alright, well my application has hit a couple of roadblocks... I'm passed my assessment day, but am awaiting medical clearance for flight screening. Fingers crossed everything will work out okay; I just have a metal plate fixed to one of my bones is all :ouch:

Anyway, I've obtained the required specialist reports and have confirmation that they have been received by DFR, now I am waiting as I have been told my file has been sent to RAAF AVMED pending a final decision as to my being given medical approval. I remember reading somewhere that others who had been in a similar situation had contacted AVMED to confirm that their file had been received and was being processed. I was hoping to do the same as I know things can go missing between destination with DFR... I have the number for RAAF Edinburgh and figured perhaps I could just ring that and ask for the medical section, alternatively I was going to contact DFR and see if they have the number and would pass it on. I thought that before I did that I'd post here to see if anyone had done what I am hoping to and knew of the best way to contact someone who might actually handle my file? Please reply, or PM if anyone does happen to have any info!

Thanks again to all the contributors of this thread, it's a brilliant resource!

Best of luck in all your applications.

Captain Sand Dune
12th May 2012, 21:57
There are prob more people after a kc30 spot than jets much to the frustration ofACGWell they've only got themselves to blame!

13th May 2012, 15:01
There are prob more people after a kc30 spot than jets much to the frustration ofACG
I'm genuinely surprised!

Well they've only got themselves to blame!
Why is that?

13th May 2012, 22:35

There are prob more people after a kc30 spot than jets much to the frustration ofACG

I'm genuinely surprised!


Well they've only got themselves to blame!

Why is that?

The average student today does not look at the hornet and think about how cool it would be to fly. They look at all the work that is required to fly it. Not just conversion but then to continue to work 10 hour days 5 days a week forever, even when at the SQN.

ACG need to change the way they do things, the vast majority of fast jet QFIs at 2FTS do not want to go back as they are sick of the workload. This attitude is passed on to the students.

I have sat in on a few posting meetings over the last few years and the most popular A/C is the C-17 followed by the C-130J. Fast jets are still high on the list but most know they will not be going......

P3s are generally last on the list. Not sure why a Whomping Stomping ASW killing machine sits so low but it's probably something to do with being based in Adelaide and it's old as the kids all want shiny new toys.

32 is fairly obvious, not only are you flying a civi light twin turbine but you are based in Sale, nothing worse for a 22 year old single guy!

38 - it's a king air, nuff said.

14th May 2012, 01:41
I can remember having a FJ instructor at 2FTS and that turned me off FJ for life. I remember asking him questions in debriefs and I all I got back was icy contempt. Oh, and he gave out scores that were always 2 lower than anyone else. I gave up asking him anything.
Basically, this guy thought that instructing and the PC9 were beneath him and he went out of his way to upset everyone around him. His attitude was appalling.
It seems to be that most of the instructors at BFTS and 2FTS come from a multi-engine background and until there are more FJ role models in the training system, who properly mentor and encourage their students you will find that the graduates will still prefer the big heavy jets.
By the way, I am a realist and I know this will never change (for a whole number of reasons) and we will never see lots of happy Hornet pilots spreading the good word at 2FTS and BFTS.

14th May 2012, 03:58
Thanks for that Slezy9 and dostum :ok:

What is the workload for other pilots when compared to that of FJ pilots? What sort of things would a FJ pilot be doing in those 10 hours each day?

14th May 2012, 04:43
All good chatty stuff guys...

As a former military fast jet pilot, Fighter squadron CO and mentor/role model for a few folk over the decades (in a variety of countries), may I advise any of you who think being a military pilot in any aeroplane type is going to be easy, look elsewhere because the military will screen you out. None of it is easy. All of it takes huge amounts of time, energy and commitment. You don't get your hands on multi-million dollar equipment without being thoroughly prepared, and that actually applies to any job you choose to contemplate. Not just the military.

For those who think it is good to wish for any form of military transport or support job over a fast jet post, let me just say that if you manage to slip through the selection process don't try to talk up the fact that you are aiming low. The only reason for aiming low is to avoid disappointment, and if that is how you think I hope the military doesn't want you. To my mind, the military needs go getters, not settlers.

You will find there is inter-type rivalry, inter-service rivalry, inter-personal rivalry. All of it is a part of the competition and camaraderie of service life. Everything about screening is about you presenting yourself in the best possible way to get selected for what you really want. Argue all you like about who goes where, who does what and who gets the gongs...the fact is that most people aspire to be fighter pilots, and they are the kind of people the military want. From those selected, pilots for all types will be trained/picked. Nobody joins to fly BBJs, Challengers, B350s...or for that matter CT4s and PC9s. Don't even think about them! These are all just aeroplanes around for you to fly when you are on your way to a warplane, or on a break from a warplane. They do have a mission, but you must aspire to something higher!

Think about the air force motto and what it means. Can you really do that if you peak on a PC9?

14th May 2012, 05:16
Nobody joins to fly BBJs, Challengers

Spoken like a true fighter pilot. You guys are all the same, you just never understand that there is more to life. But what would I know, as I was described the other day by a fast jet dude, I am only a sub-sonic mother f#&ker.

Maybe nobody joins to fly these but by the time it comes to posting these are two of the most popular types.

You have obviously been out of the game for a while, we are dealing with a new breed of pilot.

14th May 2012, 06:04
Hey Slezy
You have obviously been out of the game for a while, we are dealing with a new breed of pilot.
You might think that, but no. Close enough to the game to know with absolute certainty that we still need the same breed of military pilot we have always needed. If you think differently then it is more likely you have slipped through and are in the wrong game. Good luck!:)

14th May 2012, 06:50
I prefer to brief for 1 hr then fly for 6 instead of the other way around.

14th May 2012, 07:28

You really do need to have a quick re-assessment of the playing field today. No doubt those qualities you mentioned are what the Air Force needs but todays Generation Y 2FTS student is a little bit smarter than you give him credit for. ACG have developed a generation of jaded and overworked individuals who have permeated the training system and rubbed the sheen off the post Top-Gun era - fast jet marketing boom of the 80's and 90's. Todays high performing 2FTS student only needs to ring his mates at 3 or 77 to discover the workload on offer in that arena. He would much prefer to follow in the footsteps of his C-130J and C-17 mates and enjoy that easy lifestyle and extra $$$ and gongs to boot. With the global travel and first-class rationing coupled with an easy workload the studs are jumping over each other to get to 34SQN too. They probably joined to fly fast movers but after hearing what the lifestyle entails quickly changed their mind. Todays jet driver works twice as hard for effectively half the pay (due to no deployments) and as such a savvy Gen Y kid can't make it stack up. I have seen numerous high-flying 2FTS grads (i.e. Dux's and top 2/top 3 finishers) thumb their noses at fast jets and opt for a window seat in those other types you mentioned much to the despair of the 2FTS hierarchy. Meanwhile ACG has scrubbed all the guys that could have passed and are now scraping the bottom of the barrel and offering FJ's to almost anyone who wants it.

Airshows aside, Fast movers have lost their appeal to a generation that's all about getting stuff yesterday. Gen Y have realised that all that work wont get you additional dollars, female attention or kudos at the bar and as such FJ's have become undesirable. Stayed tuned for the expen$ive TV campaign about to start soon as a direct result of this crisis.

14th May 2012, 08:00

fraid Upgarded has hit the nail on the head. Gen Z wants it easy and now. I don't know that many knuckleheads that would complain of a 10 hour, five day a week work rate. More like 12 plus, 6 to seven days a week.

A bit like the infantry. Most of their guys are busted by 35 if not 30 due to the physical demands. Most FJ boys are burnt out after a 4 year posting and certainly after two postings. Yeah I know a few old and bold that are still punching around but it aint like the good ol days

14th May 2012, 10:05
Good replies guys. Glad to hear you have no confidence or belief in Gen Y/Gen Z. Personally, if I were one of those I would be mortified that people like you good folk think so little of me.

Not sure what points you are trying to make that conflict with my original foray. There is clearly an element of self justification and inter-type rivalry going on, but what you say doesn't make it right. Indeed, you should all be very worried. Please don't try to stick up for it because it only makes the situation worse. People need to face up to why we have a defence force, and if it's all about hauling trash, easy lifestyle, 5 star food/accom, then we are all in a very dangerous place.

Captain Sand Dune
14th May 2012, 10:09
I agree with what you're saying. However as the last two posters have stated, we now have to pitch to a different market.
Just to assume that every graduated pilot wants to go FJ just isnt the case any more. ACG has to sell itself, and this is where they fall down.
Telling the students at BFTS/2FTS that they can look forward to 12 hour days six days/week, 200 hours/year, be burnt out by the time you reach your mid-30s, and then having to work incredibly hard for the priviledge doesn't cut it with them.
Additionally, Australian governments just don't have the balls to use our FJ units to anywhere near their capacity. This means that the young 'uns look elsewhere for operational experience, hence the increased interest in Hercs, P3s and C17s.
ACG need to bite the bullet and send some family models to Tamworth and Pearce regularly and take some of the kiddies for a ride.

14th May 2012, 10:23
CSD, you know I respect your view and agree with your way forward. ACG may well have a sales pitch to make, but at the flight screening level it doesn't alter the fact that the down pitch being played by Joker89, Upgraded and finestkind is simply wrong. If they really feel the way they advocate then they have no place in any defence force, let alone a modern one faced with all the identified challenges.

A big NB: I am proud of my fighter hours and can honestly say they were quite a variety of experience. If a 6 hour brief to get a few good hours of flight time is what it takes, that will always be better than a logbook full of the same old boring hour watching the auto-pilot take me to another different international airport. If you want that life, join an airline!

14th May 2012, 10:24
DBTW - mate, I have to agree with the other posters - you're out of touch.
ACG need to wake up to themselves - why did NONE of the QFIs at 2FTS take up the offer of a slot at 79SQN for Fast Jet conversion? I'm not saying it's a good thing, it's just the reality of the situation. I strongly believe that the RAAF has the BEST fighter pilots in the world. I REALLY believe that. I have nothing but admiration for their skills and work ethic. But something it wrong. Why do none of THEM want to go back? (From 2FTS, 79/76SQN?) They work too hard - for, arguably, no reason. Not "too hard" in your books - which is again, something I admire from someone like you - but "too hard" for this generation, where often wives and partners have their own careers and ambitions, that take up LOTS of time and effort.
Is this a problem? I don't think so - the time spent on 1v1, 2v1s, is great fun and makes for some cool HUD tapes, but it is a wasted maintenance of proficiency for a skill unlikely to be needed.
I have quite a few mates in ACG who feel the same way - these guys are UTMOST professionals who have an amazing passion for their jobs - but they have other respectable interests too - and we're burning them out.
Unfortunately it only takes the odd knob to ruin the image of what could be a terrific posting opportunity - and unfortunately a number of them have done a lot of damage at the schools (BFTS and 2FTS).
Whilst slightly off the topic (from RAAF Flight Screening) it is relevant...

14th May 2012, 10:34
If ACG want people to want to do it the government should send a sqn to the middle east. We are fighting a war but our jets are deploying to Vegas, Guam and butterworth. If there was any more than a slim chance of defending more than the training area You would get more interest.

14th May 2012, 11:51

Like it or not these generations and their differing values comprise the bulk of the bograt workforce of today and the leadership positions of tomorrow. Consequently these generations need to be understood. The truth of the matter is that the training system is set up to produce fighter pilots. Every trainee pilot that finishes 2FTS at a standard good enough to matriculate to 79sqn (and potentially go on to Hornets) and KNOCKS IT BACK to fly a Herc/P-3/C17 is a massive waste of time and money. This is happening time and time again and the blame for this rests solely with ACG . I know some people that were scrubbed from 76 and when offered a chance to return because they were short on numbers they politely declined - citing the amount of spare time on their hands to surf, drink etc as a contributing factor. They admitted that the 737/C-130 wasn't as much fun but the LIFESTYLE was too good to pass up.

This is all about marketing. ACG need to sell it better to the upcoming generations. And that doesn't mean handing out aviators and bomber jackets at university open days.

Here's a real world example for you to ponder. Aware of the current situation the 2FTS brass decided that the reason Bloggs doesn't want to fly fighters is because his instructor was a Herc/P-3/BBJ guy that told him how good life is flying multi's and if his instructor was a jet guy then all would be good. WRONG. The fact that jets is too hard is all too public. And Bloggs only needs to talk to the junior guys at the jet SQN's to get the low down which he has already done. His mind is already made up. No amount of moto briefs/pax rides/trips to muchea to watch BDU's being dropped will change this.

The solution means modifying the workrate/tempo at the squadrons to facilitate a semi-normal existence where one can manage a career and a family and their own external interests as well as providing the opportunity to utilise these finely tuned skill-sets in an operational environment. If they fail to do this there will be a significant number of JSF's sitting on the flightline as spare frames from 2018. Good if one crumps though.

14th May 2012, 12:51
I started 2FTS wanting to be a knuck, and I can clearly remember belittling a coursemate who wanted hercs at the start. As course went on there was a constant pressure from the QFIs pushing us all towards knucks. I found this confusing. If it is so good, why do they need to push us to it? The more I looked at it, it got less appealing. In the end I approached a senior 79 SQN QFI, and asked him why I should want to go to knucks. His only response was that if I didn't just desperately want to zoom into the sky in hornet, then I didn't belong. I accepted his advice and continued to work my ass off to earn my wings before moving on to a very rewarding ALG career.

I think most new boggies are like me. They make smart informed decisions. If the rush of zooming around in a hornet is all you have to offer, I think you need to do MUCH better. That would be fun, sure, but once you've ticked that box, what does it offer you in the medium and long term?

For those who think it is good to wish for any form of military transport or support job over a fast jet post, let me just say that if you manage to slip through the selection process don't try to talk up the fact that you are aiming low. The only reason for aiming low is to avoid disappointment, and if that is how you think I hope the military doesn't want you. To my mind, the military needs go getters, not settlers.

This comment displays your total lack of understanding. Aiming for ALG is not aiming low. I worked my ass off to get my wings, and have continued to work hard to be an effective and professional operator providing capability on a range of operations across the globe. I have now moved on to civil opportunities that I am well prepared for given my multi-engine multi-crew background. Throughout my career I have not heard of one bit of information that would have me question that original decision. I would also encourage you desist from the comments about less work being a motivator. There are many things that inform the decision to preference away from knucks, the lower requirement to spend precious days off at work is just one, and often not THE motivator.

Perhaps if you thought of your non-ACG colleagues on a peer basis, instead of assuming they are 'lower', it might help you to start making the comparison the boggies make. You might even start to understand how the opportunity to fly a C17 is an unparalleled opportunity to fly a modern glass cockpit swept wing jet on operations around the globe. I cannot fathom how knucks provides a better opportunity than this.

14th May 2012, 21:36
Gentlemen (?), let's get some stuff straight here. This thread is where youngsters come to seek answers to questions about joining the ADF as pilots. Recently, there has been a significant trend towards uniformed personnel appearing to talk down the ADF's recruitment process.
In my first "on this topic" post I said:
You will find there is inter-type rivalry, inter-service rivalry, inter-personal rivalry. and since then the responses all appear to come from uniforms trying to self justify. Not a problem, but remember who is reading. I am close enough to the system to know that nearly 100% of the youth approaching the screening process wish to fly fast jets. That is the same as it has ever been and no amount of talking down to the youth of today will change that.

I fully understand there are not enough fast jet slots available for all of the 140 odd students who commence BFTS each year, and the subsequent training process is such that most graduates do not achieve their initial goal. IE: they finish up flying something else.

You guys are all focusing on post selection, post training issues. Both of which are important for everyone in military service to face at some point. In bringing it up on a flight screening forum, all you are doing is demotivating at best, or as I have said already, trying to justify the path you either chose or were forced down.

Thanks for all the insights about Gen Y and the later Gen. To be frank, you are all wrong. I believe the youth of today are just as capable and motivated as any youth have ever been. Quit with the pandering nonsense and make way because they are coming through, and they will step up when needed.

Those of the younger generations reading this, please let me say that I, quite uniquely on this thread it seems, believe in you and your ability to step up to the plate should your nation need you in military service. NB: it is a generational thing that the people here are appearing to be condescending towards you. Continue boldly and reach for the stars. Don't let them talk you down.

FHLL, it is aiming low if you shoot for something you perceive to be easier when you originally aimed for a higher goal. That's life, Mate. You seem to be surviving with it in your "sponsored by the people of Australia" commercial pursuits. I suppose you think everyone in the RAAF should join an airline like what you did?

Thanks to the bulk of you who have re-affirmed that the ADF still attempts to recruit warriors before others. That is a good thing. How the ADF manage the process after training seems to be what you all want to talk about. There is nothing new here. The process I went through was nearly identical, and judging by the stories my father told me, it was the same in his day as well. Might I politely suggest you take that to another thread so that this one can go on giving our youth the answers they need to get through flight screening? They really are motivated and they will be fine. Just give them a chance to prove it.

14th May 2012, 23:35

I agree the thread has been drifting from the pre-selection phase to posting issues.

We have been discussing the aspirations and career paths that these applicants will take, in response to queries about what the realities are of careers once you've got your wings. The reason this is happening is because they are smart enough to try to research the whole deal of joining the RAAF. They are rightfully concerned about what happens if they don't get what they are aiming for. We are simply suggesting that by the time streaming comes, there is a very good chance they will be actively seeking ALG. Therefore, don't get stressed about this outcome at the recruitment stage, because there are many who would suggest this is a far better outcome than going to ACG. If the worst case is that you become tagged a career King Air pilot (this appears to be happening to VERY few), you will have had some of the best flying training available anywhere in the world, and you will have a heap of MC/ME experience that will place you very well if yo choose to transition out once you have done your service. Plus you will still have enjoyed the camaraderie of being on a military SQN.

Joining with a goal to go to ALG is a great choice to make. The only issue is that the RAAF revolves around ACG, and therefore candidates are selected on their intention and aptitude to be a knuck. Therefore if a current applicant is smart (and I very much think they are), they will tell everyone exactly what they want to hear until they get to streaming, when they can finally be clear about what they want. I am not advocating dishonesty - simply observing a path that many (not me) have trodden.

Speaking to potential applicants here: as I pointed out before, if ACG was so good, this discussion would be moot. The truth is that if roaring around in a Jet competing with your peers is what makes you tick, then by all means join and push for jets. If you make it then good luck to you, I hope it's everything you dreamed of. For everybody else, DBTW has made a number of posts without making one coherent argument as to why the jet world is so good. You'll get plenty of people from ALG happy to tell you the pros and cons of their world. Have a look at DBTW's attitude. He doesn't know me, what service I provided or what commendations I received. My ALG bosses were grateful to me for my RAAF service and understood my decision to separate based upon the needs of my family. DBTW is prepared to assert that I have used the people of Australia for commercial reasons based on nothing. Because my choices are different to his, he's prepared to make personal attacks, and repeatedly assert that the only basis of my decision can be that I was aiming low and taking an easy route. To me this is typical of the self-absorbed arrogance of ACG. I think everyone in the RAAF should continue to make smart informed choices. Continue boldly and don't let people like DBTW put you off making the decisions that are right for you.

DBTW, I think that you are the only one who thinks that the current applicants aren't smart. They will get to streaming and make informed choices based around facts and information. The question remains: can you offer a comprehensive argument as to why a grad today would want to be a knuck, based upon all the consequences of that decision on themselves, their family, career and professional development?

15th May 2012, 00:28
Good post FHLL

I think what DB is trying to say is we should want to be a knuck because of the perceived status and honor that comes with the position.

Unfortunately this doesn't exist. A person isn't defined by what aircraft they fly. It's just life choices. I wouldn't take my family to tindal just so I can fly a fast jet or anything for that matter. He is right in that this prob isn't the place for such arguments.

15th May 2012, 00:49
Agreed this should probably go in the "RAAF Pilots leaving" forum, which has been inactive for a while.

Maybe some of the senior officers (ie star ranked fighter pilots) who peruse this forum will also wade in.

15th May 2012, 02:36
Agreed this should probably go in the "RAAF Pilots leaving" forum, which has been inactive for a while.

Maybe some of the senior officers (ie star ranked fighter pilots) who peruse this forum will also wade in.

Discussion continued there...

15th May 2012, 08:23

I guess most of its been said for me but. There is no self justification or any other rubbish. What is being offered to you is the reason ACG is struggling to qual its 12 odd knucks a year. We do not want warriors anymore cause they are the people who will get pissed in the back bar and poke you in the chest, as their CO, and tell you how they would run the squadron. They are the people that dance on table tops and take life on in an aggressive fashion, full throttle in after burner , as we all were in my time (as such I was told by my PT 3 that I was not suitable candidate for FJ’s, a long time ago, who happened to be a bloody Admino. Another reason it’s all gone to pot). And guess what ? that is not the type that is wanted anymore. What is wanted is a gentleman officer who know their place and did not step out of line. Please do not continue to embarrass yourself by displaying your sheltered fast jet life. It’s not lack of confidence or belief in gen Z its hard facts. A generation that has been pampered/cotton wooled through school were no-one fails, a generation that wants it now, without the effort. Great, you continue with your belief in the new Gen’s and their capabilities and I am more than happy to be proven wrong but back it up with facts. Pilots course is still hard work but it’s not like it was. Do that again blogs and your scrubbed. We no longer have that negative reinforcement (that worked pretty well). BFTS, 2FTS is a lot kinder when telling someone they are a cripple. CFS is no longer 3FTS. Perhaps that’s your answer the training system has changed to move with the times, has the fast jet world? Very few if any in my time would have knocked back a FJ slot so in that aspect don’t belittle the ones that didn’t get it. Secondly if anyone can be turned off FJ by a bit of talk then they are the wrong stuff, which just lends credibility to what I/we are saying about the new gen. As such it maybe thread drift but its relevant.

16th May 2012, 06:57
Alright, well aside from negative comments directed at Gen Z (...), I don't suppose anyone happens to know how I might be able to contact AvMed at RAAF Edinburgh? I tried the Defence switchboard several times, but the number I've been connected through to is ringing out over and over. I figure asking DFR medical staff is my next option, but I don't want to come across as undermining their system by contacting AvMed directly myself... Appreciate any help!


16th May 2012, 07:41
Is it just to hurry them up? With my medical appeal running over the allotted time, I just kept pestering my local DFR Medical Section once a week until I got a favourable response. I don't have contact details for AvMed though.

16th May 2012, 07:48
Not so much to hurry them along as to double check they have received and are processing my file; I've heard some horror stories of such things getting lost between DFR and AvMed. Might try DFR Medical here in Brisbane again. Appreciate your reply, thanks.

16th May 2012, 10:02
When I contacted the Medical Section in my local DFRC they offered to contact Canberra themselves to make sure that everything was received and whatnot. I'd definitely recommend keeping in contact with your one and perhaps ask them if they could do the same.

16th May 2012, 22:25
Army Pilot Sitting Height Update:
I got a call from the DFR doc yesterday and they have set in stone the Army pilot sitting height - 95cm.
Bad news for me as I'm 96.5cm, she advised it's not something you can appeal now because it's policy, formal waivers and cockpit tests are now a thing of the past.

17th May 2012, 02:12
Well Its been around 2 weeks since my assessment session and I got my call today to attend Tamworth

I'll be on the 9-23 June Course, anyone else going to be on that, send me a pm.

Any information or insight on the course would also be much appreciated


17th May 2012, 15:06
Edit: double posted, sorry

18th May 2012, 12:54
Mooch, really sorry to hear that. Commiserations.
I won't be happy if I don't get in due to something out of my control.

20th May 2012, 08:32
Hey Aydo,

Looks like we'll be on the same FSP :D See you in 3 weeks then!



22nd May 2012, 05:28
Just passed this today.
Consists of:
•Reading gauges - you'll have about 6/7 gauges and be asked 4/5 questions relating to that cluster then there is a new cluster for the next bunch of questions. This isn't too hard, but you won't answer all the questions. One of the guys in my group failed and he was told that this first section is the most important (even though it is pencil and paper and the rest is all on PCs).

•I can't remember this step, but I didn't finish it. This step and all following question and answer tests are multiple choice.

•Reading gauges again - this time you will have a gauge showing the angle at which an aircraft is rolling and it's inclination and a compass. You must choose the correct aircraft based on the gauge and compass. Examples of this test are at this link (http://www.fibonicci.com/airforce/instrument-comprehension-test/).

•Fast maths - you need to do these questions in your head to get as many done as you can. A pencil and paper are provided, but the aim of this test is to measure the speed and accuracy of your mathematical skills. Lots of multiplication and division with both fractions and decimals. Some are quite tricky and try to catch you out. One example is 1/8 x 7832 / 0.125

•Speed, distance, time and fuel - this section has more complex questions that can and should be studied. The Student Room (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=501724) has some great examples. One example is "A pilot is 600km away and flying towards an airfield at 200km/h. An aircraft takes off at 300km/h in the direction of the oncoming aircraft. How far away from the airfield will they meet?".

A break and then Joystick and Touchscreen stuff:

•Memory - this can be rather tough. You have to follow a sequence of numbers. This is fine at first except for each 'lag' it gets harder. As the lag goes up you have to delay your input by one number. So you start on lag 0 and press each number as they light up, on the lag 1 you delay your input by 1 number, so when the second number lights up you press the first number and so on. The highest lag that my group got up to was lag 5.

•Multiplication and addition/subtraction - you have to quickly solve mathematical problems and press the correct number (from 1 to 9). You are given two digits and must multiply them then if the result is an even number you multiply the individual digits of that answer. If you multiply the provided digits and get an odd number you must find the difference between them. For example if supplied with "5 7" you multiply the digits and get 35, then because the result is odd you find the difference between the two digits in the answer, so 5-3= 1. If you are given the digits "8 4" you multiply and get 32, then because this is an even number you add the two digits in the answer to get 3+2= 5.

•Joystick stuff - you must keep a small circle inside a larger circle, a cross over a larger cross, etc. There are two joysticks and one controls up/down and the other controls left/right. Sometimes one joystick with control both axes and you must simultaneously solve the above maths problems. Sometimes one will control both axes of a cross which must be kept on a larger cross in the middle of the screen while the other joystick controls the horizontal movement of a circle that must be kept over a line. There are quite a number of different configurations with the joysticks and I honestly can't think of any way to practice for it. As far as people saying that experience with computer games helps, well I don't think it makes much difference. I think you'd get more benefit out of practicing patting your head with or hand while rubbing your stomach with the other hand, because it's about multitasking.

•Dials/Gauges - you use the touchscreen and one joystick to keep gauges and dials centred. Again, there isn't much you can do to practice this. The only thing I could suggest is perhaps not getting too close to the screen so you can keep them all within your field of vision simultaneously.

I have forgotten something here, so read through the rest of this thread. This is all I can remember right now anyway.
It's a fairly full-on batch of tests and for the complex maths (speed/dist/time/fuel) you definitely want to have studied for it or be used to solving those sorts of questions. Also, make sure you read the question carefully because it may ask for how much extra will a trip take or how many gallons of fuel did an aircraft have at a specific point along the journey

22nd May 2012, 05:51
Thanks crazydingo, I actually have good news now though :)
After DFR said I wouldn't be eligible as an Army pilot and couldn't appeal etc, I called PSA and they advised I'm still eligible as the sitting height restriction is DFR's not theirs.
You would think they have one set of standards across DFR, PSA and ADF, oh well.

Congrats on passing additional pilot testing and good luck for assessment day, hopefully you're not waiting long.

24th May 2012, 01:24
Yes, they let you know if you passed or failed once you have finished everything.

28th May 2012, 02:43
Just been to FSP and extremely disappointed to not get a recommendation. I haven't seen many posts from people who didn't make it, so I'm posting about my experience in the hope it might help other people get through.

The main reason I didn't perform well enough, was simple. I never reached a point where the controls and readouts became natural. As examples, I frequently used the wrong rudder pedal to balance, and would sometimes trim in the wrong direction... I'd think "throttle lower" and push forward, or vice versa... I'd even think "smooth inputs" then act like the stick was a 4-way control! Learning the material, was not a problem and I spent many, many hours chair flying (with distractions). But, the airborne environment never "clicked" for me. The most frustrating thing was, I really felt that as soon as I was at ease in the cockpit, everything would fall into place and I'd breeze through all subsequent sorties. I could feel that breakthrough point getting closer, especially on the first flight of each day. I obviously never reached it. Put another way, I didn't adapt quickly enough, which is one of the big things they're screening for.

Another major reason I didn't perform well... I was so worried about failure, I failed. As one of my instructors noted, "The only thing you need to do is relax". Instead, I'd make one mistake and think "Oh man! Oh $#!^! Don't screw this up! You only get one shot at this!"... a pretty non-relaxing thought, which usually spawned a series of mistakes. The only way I could imagine relaxing up there was to try and convince myself that being an army chopper pilot wouldn't actually be the most awesome job in the world. However, I stubbornly refused to believe such delusional nonsense, and thereby continued to stress myself into oblivion.

Based on my experience, my main advice would be to repeat advice already given in this thread. That is, get up there and get a few hours of experience at the controls of a plane. At the very least, buy a full suite of aircraft controls for your PC so that you can fly sims and become familiar using stick, rudder and throttle controls. I'd flown many hours on PC simulators, but only with a joystick and keyboard :(

Also, when people say the workload at FSP is intense, they are not kidding. There were 3 days, where I had 2 flights per day. Processing, reviewing and assimilating what you've learnt on a sortie takes time, and you may only get 2-3 hours to do it. There's not much you can do about that situation except to always study/chair-fly your next 2 sorties... but, you should already know that, by now.

One final bit of advice is to be absolutely sure your helmet fits properly! I tried my helmet on for a few minutes and I didn't notice there was a bit of extra pressure from the forehead pad. About halfway through my first sortie, that slight pressure had created a splitting headache... the headache gave rise to nausea, and some sudden vomiting which I barely managed to swallow (yum! :yuk:). The rest of my lesson was a blur of pain and nausea. I didn't even think to inform my instructor how I was feeling and just kept trying to move my helmet around to reduce the pain, while listening to what he was saying. The worst part though, was that it wrecked me for the rest of the day. I barely managed an hour of study before collapsing into bed around 8pm. Bizarrely, I felt really good the next day... which helped balance my lack of prep for those 2 sorties :O

Anyway, I hope that all helps! Personally, I would've taken the advice of having 6-8 hours of lessons before FSP, except I just don't have the money... the last of my savings went on vision correction surgery. I also stupidly took a 1-hour helicopter lesson, which would've been far more wisely spent on 4 hours of fixed-wing lessons. I seriously considered saving for lessons, but I believed further delay would mean missing the July intake at Duntroon... given the ol' 20/20 hindsight, I should've been patient and aimed for the Jan 2013 intake.

29th May 2012, 04:04
Navy Offers went out today. Unfortunately no call for us. Not sure when the next Army intake is but hopeful for that one.

30th May 2012, 11:34
Has anyone completed the ATC course with RAAF at East Sale?

Would appreciate someone with specific experience to answer a couple of questions.

2nd Jun 2012, 11:56

What an incredibly mature, honest and valuable post you have made for the benefit of all. Mate, I am VERY sorry you didn't get recommended. Your honest and open self critique is something that is so lacking in so many of our applicants, even, unfortunately, for some of those who get through the initial FSP.
For those candidates who will attend FSP in the future, please take the time to digest Kordau's words - he has some important advice.
- Feeling "at ease in the cockpit" is something that is unlikely to happen at Flight Screening - that's deliberate, so don't feel stressed if you never seem to feel comfortable.
- Worrying about failure - this is a tough one to overcome. FSP IS very stressful - try to also allow yourself to enjoy it - probably the first time anyone is paying for you to go flying! (It was for me!)
- Flight sim - may work for some, however can be difficult to really appreciate what trimming is all about and doesn't really train you to set attitudes. If you use this as a tool to become familiar with the instruments, then it can be potentially helpful - but flying ON instruments is NOT what FSP is about.
- "Be absolutely sure your helmet fits properly" - excellent advice - take all the time you need to make sure it is as good as it possibly can be. As Kordau accurately describes, a minor annoyance at the beginning of the flight can turn into a painful and extremely distracting "hot spot" very quickly - usually about the same time you arrive in the training area and need to perform!

Kordau, I really wish you all the best with whatever path you follow from now on. It's a genuine shame that you didn't get through.



3rd Jun 2012, 11:04
Hey guys, First time poster... Long time reader. Just wondering, I saw a few posts on my way through this topic about people transferring from all services to apply for pilot. I'm currently enlisted in the RAAF and have completed the first step of my paperwork to be submitted for my OSB. Just curious as to whether anyone on here has gone through this process and how it differs.

Do we do another 'YOU' style day? Do we have all the aptitude tests etc or after our PE 063, go straight to an OSB to see if we are suitable?

Thanks in advance, Any help in PM would be greatly appreciated.

4th Jun 2012, 22:21
Hi all,

Is anyone aware of when the next Army offers are coming out? If any?


5th Jun 2012, 01:36
Hey guys. I am going to Tamworth next week for FSP. I was just looking in the mirror and noticed that my hair is quite long. Should I go get a buzz cut or just an ordinary haircut? I am happy to get a buzz cut if it is going to be advantageous. But If it is not going to help, I would probably enjoy having hair as long as I can. Thoughts?

5th Jun 2012, 01:58
My advice: Buzz cut not required. Don't draw attention to yourself. Have a normal haircut. Make sure you are clean shaven and hygenic!

11th Jun 2012, 06:48
Hey has anyone used the book get your wings ? Wondering wether it is any good and wether there are any other books that are similar that would help me prepare for testing.

11th Jun 2012, 23:21
Hi campaspe8,

I purchased 'Wings' at the end of last year, it gives a great overview of being a pilot in the ADF right from attending your YOU session all the way to your retirement.
It gives you helpful tips to tackle the different stages of recruiting and training like the aptitude tests, FSP and BFTS.
I'm sure you won't but don't use this as a sole resource or gospel as some of the info was out dated even when I read it, e.g. current operational aircraft.
It also focuses on RAAF more so than Navy and Army, which for me as a potential Army pilot I would have liked a bit more info on the heli specific courses but a trip to Oakey fixed that :)
Overall, for just $50 or whatever it is I think it's worth it.

For other resources, the RAAF website has a wealth of knowledge from history to bases.
The military section of Australian Aviation - Military | Australian Aviation Magazine (http://australianaviation.com.au/category/military/)
Have a read through the current AIR projects on the DMO webpage - Defence Capability Plan 2009 - Public Version (http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/id/dcp/html/air/index.html)
Wikipedia is also a good starting point.
If you are looking for aptitude tutoring I can personally recommend Steven Holding.


12th Jun 2012, 00:53
Thanks for the info. I will check it out.

I just got out of the army after 7 years and am currently in reserves. Turns out it is easier to leave than try to transfer. Just looking for some practice questions and the like so I pass the aptitude testing first up.

This thread is amazing, I am slowly reading it through its length.

18th Jun 2012, 12:28
So after a long drawn out process of application, as I'm sure a lot of people in this thread would know about. I'm finally panelled for Flight Screening on the 15th July. If anyone else is also coming along feel free to PM or message me!

19th Jun 2012, 00:44
Congrats flametail!
Unfortunately I'm not panelled for 15th July but I might see you around as I just got invited to the 21st July course :)

23rd Jun 2012, 23:14
Hi Guys,

Just a quick question out of interest to resolve a discussion at work.

How many hours on average do the hornet pilots get once fully qualified?

If someone can break it down to normal operations/training exercises and deployments it would be much appreciated.

I know this maybe a "how long is a piece of string..." kinda question, but any helpful feedback is welcome.

1st Jul 2012, 08:59
Hi all,

I'm paneled for 15th July FSP at Tamworth so I'm pretty happy just to get there.

Anyway I did my psych interview and aptitude testing in February and I have the book I used to study for the tests in PDF, if anyone wants it send me a PM with your email and I'll flick it to you.

Thanks for the advice in this thread so far and to add to that I've been told to study all things about the military.

This includes history, current operations, air power stuff, what planes we fly and where theyre based etc.

1st Jul 2012, 13:19
Hey all,

I've been looking around for some info and came across this forum, seems to be a lot of great info. I'm an American AF officer looking into the lateral transfer program the RAAF has, does anyone know if the FSP is open to individuals such as myself?

10th Jul 2012, 09:39
Just wondering if they let you know how you went at flight screening after the OSB in Tamworth or later when you leave? I gather by some people stating that they got through they let you know straight away?

Sorry if this has already been asked, to many pages to look through.


11th Jul 2012, 02:35
Dont worry I found my answer previously posted.

11th Jul 2012, 05:09
Just wondering what happens to people that fail along the way to getting their wings?

Is their any obligation for return of service? Or do they just let you go from the ADF?


13th Jul 2012, 06:41

I'm Army and about to start BFTS and if your Army, you can be scrubbed at any time even after you get your wings. I know guys who've been scrubbed with 2 Black Hawk flights to go.

If your SSO you're pretty much shown the door, GSO get streamed into another non-flying postion.

Not sure how RAAF and Navy work.

14th Jul 2012, 00:22
How much choice do you have in the matter of where you go if you do get scrubbed?

14th Jul 2012, 06:27
I think they try and keep you in the aviation field but in the end it's where the spots need to be filled as to where you end up.

17th Jul 2012, 06:35
You will do NEOC as the very first thing you do upon entering the Navy.

17th Jul 2012, 10:47
NEOC (6 - 12 months) -> ADFA (3 years non-engineer) -> BFTS

25th Jul 2012, 21:59

Those 48 offers. Are they coming out start of the year for RAAF or is that the entire quota for the entire year for all 3 forces combined?


27th Jul 2012, 06:19
Anyone know when the next Army offers are coming out?

29th Jul 2012, 03:32
Distribution for all services is in November of this year.

29th Jul 2012, 12:29
Thanks Rookie Pilot - is that the 48 that was previously mentioned?

1st Aug 2012, 02:28
Thanks everyone for contributing to this huge thread.

I have a question, it may have been covered but i have gone through most of the pages and haven't seen it yet.

I have my You Session next week in Brisbane for direct entry Pilot and I am pre-empting a question similar to "if you are not successful for pilot entry what else would I consider". Now I am not sure how to answer a question like that.

The honest answer is that I only want to fly, my preference is with the Air force but if not successful I will look into other avenues like private lessons or uni. My lifelong dream is to fly in the airforce and not necessarily jets either, I would prefer the big stuff like C17's etc.

My issue is will this answer put me in a negative position with the recruiter because it might seem I am not dedicated to the RAAF?

My background I am currently 28, I am a qualified mechanic and am now a technical trainer.

Thanks in advance for the help.

1st Aug 2012, 06:16
How did people go on the 15th July flight screening?

5th Aug 2012, 03:38
5/6 for 15th
4/8 for 21st

6th Aug 2012, 07:20
myskyhigh, pretty sure those 48 offers are just for ADFA spots next year. last i heard its about 20 total for all 3 services DEO for the offers at the end of november, then another one sometime in april/ may next year.

Fingers crossed.


6th Aug 2012, 08:32
Hey there,
If anyone has completed assessment day recently, are you required to write an essay sometime during the day based on one of a few available topics/questions??
If so, does anybody know these topics/questions??


8th Aug 2012, 00:21
I am waiting for the same answer as Dan.

8th Aug 2012, 01:00
The psychologist will get you to answer three questions and it's up to you how much you write. I can't remember the questions, but the few I had were personal, probing questions as opposed to service questions.

Dilmah G
8th Aug 2012, 06:06
Don't stress, you only get something like 15 minutes to do it anyway. Just show them you're not a brainless ****wit when it comes to your written expression, and try to appear at least moderately sane in the interview and you're well on your way to passing that segment of the Assessment Day.

10th Aug 2012, 03:46
Hi all,

I have just completed the FSP at Tamworth and one of the things discovered there in relation to Army pilot sitting height was that its ben changed so no linger is the 95cm height critical. You might need to rethink your preferneces based on this.

There is much i learned from the 2 weeks so if your keen for any inside tips on the training and what to expect incl the OSB then feel free to email me at
[email protected]


10th Aug 2012, 03:55
Just got back from FSP:
20th November offers are for all services (year end)
6 Army

Bear in mind as at 2 weeks ago there were 45 in the pool with another 60 people to go through screeningsoooo unless your a high -recommended you might not get in in november

Next round is April

11th Aug 2012, 02:39
Hey markoshark
I'm not sure if they spoke to you about this at FSP,but giving giving out hints and inside tips on what goes on at flight screening is only watering down your own chances of gaining a place in your chosen service and that of the other 45 or so that are still In the pool !!
With places being so limited and the numbers of screeners still to come id be personally keeping tight lipped to give myself the best possible chance !!

12th Aug 2012, 03:35
Yeah that might be relevant if i did get recommended !;)

I am just happy to help people out so whether thats good or bad i really dont care... I had some help but i wish i had had more. the defence personel are getting plenty !

My new blog site fo those who want help is below:

12th Aug 2012, 03:57
Ten out of ten for wanting to help your mates, but Ds has a very good point.

For all that are trying to get in- do the work yourself. I have never trusted any work (except the manuals obviously) but my own when it comes to preparation for any sortie. All due respect to Marko, but can you put your hand on your heart and say your notes are 100% accurate?


(ex BFTS):ok:

Captain Sand Dune
12th Aug 2012, 04:07
Oh, and learn how to spell.
Not you, OP! Anyway aren't you far too busy to have time to poke around on PPRuNE?!.:E

12th Aug 2012, 05:33
CSD- Well it is Sunday!

Would have thought they'd have you flying on a Sunday- being at the centre of excellence and all:rolleyes::E
Back to flying real aircraft soon....

12th Aug 2012, 08:44
Hi Marko,

To be honest, I am really disappointed that you would make a post such as this. There are people who have worked their asses off to get recommended and whilst you didn't, after a post such as this I can understand why.

You are putting every applicant that has been recommended and is currently sitting in the pool at a disadvantage by posting this - and I am sure the majority of them are not currently serving.

If maturity was a factor I am sure you failed on that one!

One of the other things they look for is being able to following instruction, something that once again you have failed in.

Whilst I can understand your disappointment, you are doing the same thing.......if not worse then the people you thought had an advantage over you.


12th Aug 2012, 09:39
I'm sorry Liz, you do seem very mature yourself. You obviously missed the fact that plenty of applicants are ADF (half of my course). Is is fair that they have an advantage over every other applicant by having the mass brief contents to learn months before the FSP ? Yeah no, i dont think so.... I assume your in the pool and are having a little cry about missing out on a position :{. Well hate to disappoint you but if you didn't get a high rec your probably not going to get a position anyway.

What i am doing is trying to level the playing field for non-ADF people like me. if that is putting 45 people in the pool under some extra pressure then fine.
Grow up and put the benefit of many before the benefit of the few, yourself included !

12th Aug 2012, 09:59
Obviously their screening process is working.

12th Aug 2012, 10:27
Integrity, honesty, professionalism ..... (not worth the effort to carry on with the list as it obviously will mean nothing to you). As Wag pointed out there is an obvious reason why some do not get recommended. As far as half the applicants being ADF, well if the rest of what you have to offer is this accurate then there will be no issues. Combined with the ADF applicants get the Mass Briefs months before is total drivel.
What is the many?? The ones that require extra help to get a recommendation? These are the people you want the many to use their taxes to pay for the below par to get a recommendation and make if half way through and then be suspended.
At you age one would expect a certain amount of life experience which would hopefully consolidate a base of maturity combined with some ethical aspects that would reflect some of the above mentioned attributes. Not to belabour a point but it looks like the OSB got it right with you.

12th Aug 2012, 11:15
Alternatively you could do what all good pilots do, learn from your mistakes, dump the blog and carry on. Re the mass briefs, as they don't exist on the defense network, rather the contractors, any widespread conspiracy theory of people getting all the info is pretty unlikely. Pm me if you want to discuss:)

13th Aug 2012, 02:28
I wouldn't be too concerned about this so called blog. There is no magic gouge for FSP, especially from someone who didn't make it. It's like the guy on pilots course who thinks back running will make it easier as all his mates have been there before. They still get scrubbed.

13th Aug 2012, 03:46
I dont have a problem with Markoshark giving advice or writing a blog or doing whatever he wants to be honest, its a free world after all. I went on PSF a month ago and come out with a recommendation. I dont think having advice would have helped that much, after all your the one that needs to do the work/ flying and pass the interview. What about the books about becoming an ADF pilot such as 'Wings'? Does that give people an unfair advantage? What about applicants that dont know anyone in the ADF and going in their blind compared to someone who has a mate in the ADF or just done the screening process? I think if people go to the effort to find as much as possible about they have to do should have an advantage compared to someone who does not put in the leg work. At the end of the day it comes down to your ability, you could know everything at PSF before hand and still not get through and vice versa. Hopefully the process works so people that get through make it all the way. I look forward to reading your blog Markoshark, the link did not work.


13th Aug 2012, 03:51
Also OP, I believe the ADF guys on course had access to the BTFT manuals ect. I dont think it was the mass briefings. I dont think the BFTS manuals would have been much use after all its alot of information to go through. Also nothing stopping people photocopying the mass briefs and putting them online, surprised it has not happened already. Probably why they are not very useful!!


13th Aug 2012, 03:56
I dont have a problem with Markoshark giving advice or writing a blog or doing whatever he wants to be honest, its a free world after all. I went on PSF a month ago and come out with a recommendation. I dont think having advice would have helped that much, after all your the one that needs to do the work/ flying and pass the interview. What about the books about becoming an ADF pilot such as 'Wings'? Does that give people an unfair advantage? What about applicants that dont know anyone in the ADF and going in their blind compared to someone who has a mate in the ADF or just done the screening process? I think if people go to the effort to find as much as possible about they have to do should have an advantage compared to someone who does not put in the leg work. At the end of the day it comes down to your ability, you could know everything at PSF before hand and still not get through and vice versa. Hopefully the process works so people that get through make it all the way. I look forward to reading your blog Markoshark, the link did not work.


13th Aug 2012, 04:19
I also think that this thread should not be used to have a go at people. You dont know why Markoshark didnt get a recommendation. Fair enough have your own opinion about him giving advice, but its easy to call names over the internet when you dont even know the guy. I hope this is not a sign of what the ADF is like if I get in.


13th Aug 2012, 04:56

By Marko

Yeah that might be relevant if i did get recommended !
Gives an indication of not necessarily helping others but just diluting the whole process because he didn't make it. Your backing this guy because?????

As much as you like to think its a free world its not. Apart from many other restrictions, is the prime one of responsibility. In particular taking responsibility for your actions. As Marko is finding out there are a lot of people who believe in doing the right thing, which is what has been requested of them in a professional setting. There is no way you could justify, as has been attempted, that what Marko is doing is trying to help others. It is naive to thinks other's have not discussed what happens at FSP but the majority don't shout it from the roof tops trying to mask it by advocating they are helping the many.

Yes this IS the ADF you are getting into, unfortunately not as stringent as it was 10 + years ago. You do not want people you cannot trust on your wing. If Marko is big enough to have a crack at someone without having met them, assume your in the pool and having a little cry on missing out, then he is big enough to take the responsibility for the reaction it has caused.

13th Aug 2012, 07:32

So your saying that he is motivated by trying to get more people in to try and dilute the pool which is not benefit or disadvantage to him? I would see it more as trying to help people who dont have access to people in the know. He is using this own time and not getting much out of helping random people. I dont think this is a case of being right/ wrong or a matter of trust. I dont see a great advantage in knowing what you are doing for two weeks at PSF. Its not that Im backing Markoshark, I just dont agree with what your saying and voicing my opinion which I am entitled to in our democratic society and free world. My comment about 'having a crack' went both ways, I dont think anyone should have a go at people they dont know and never meet just because they have different point of views.


13th Aug 2012, 09:25
More than enough information in this thread to give you guys an advantage over those who don't read it.

The notes on that blog were dodgy at best and merely contained the insights of an outsider who obviously does not fully understand the recruitment process.

14th Aug 2012, 07:41
Hi, I'm in the process of going through this entire thread and can't seem to find an answer to a question I have. I am on the other end of the height scale, and have been through the aptitude test and in the terms of the recruit counsellor, trying to be 'sold' as a pilot due to my extensive history in aviation. I would love nothing more than this as I have been working towards it for many years but am extremely concerned I will be knocked back initially due to my height of which is approx 160cm. I am female and definitely not going to find the necessary 3cm that the website says is required, but am unsure if the standards I am looking at are for across the board ie. all services and all types of aircraft? And also for other jobs such as ACO?

If anyone has any light on this I would be extremely grateful! I want to knuckle down and get into studying and start preparing for further aptitude tests and assessments but can't get my head past that I may not physically be able to progress any further. Please help! I get measured next Monday. I know they will tell me then but I don't think I can hold out that long!

14th Aug 2012, 09:51
Get to FSP, and work your arse off. You will get the result you were after.

I'm sure FSP has changed even in the two years since I did it, but I'm sure the common formula hasn't. Put in the hard yards while at Tamworth, I'm sure you will reap the reward.

As far as Mass Briefs go, the time you get given to learn the material is pretty adequate, certainly most of my friends and myself managed fine.

And I don't think the MB's are on DRN either. As someone above said, it is a Bae thing. BFTS SATG and Type Manuals etc are on their, but that is of bugger all use on FSP.

17th Aug 2012, 09:19
It's not only height - it's weight. There are upper and lower limits for ejection seats (too tall or too heavy and you won't get out in time, too short or too light and the seat will break you on the way out). Since Army do not train in ejection seat fitted aircraft, this may still be an option for you.

Good Luck !;)

23rd Aug 2012, 05:44
True no mass briefs on the ADF intrnet but the SATG is.... which has the entire content from the mass briefs in chapters 4-110,14. The mass brief is a BAE systems doc...its a civilian run base (much to the dismay of the OSB)

In response to the kind comments offered by other in the forum, i think they speak for themselves. I'll will say that these forums are for advice sharing and not personal insults.

i'll just say that being prepared by any comments i have made isn't ging to get you recommended. Its your flying at the FSP and flying under pressure. I think that if you know what you have to do in a manouver before you get there then you might be more relaxed.

Get yourself plenty of time in the air before you go down there, spend some coin and make sure your comfy behind the controls and can control the aircraft rather than you responding to it (Trim, trim, trim )

Good Luck to you all...:ok:

23rd Aug 2012, 05:53
Although i can see your concern comes from a good place, Sadly, you missed my point which was about the ingruence of having half the applicants given access to the training manual and the other half not ie non-ADF.

Isn't that allowing the ADF peronel to "slip through the cracks" ????
but i guess that is ok, if you are ADF ?

FSP is about your improving ability in flying nd rate of learning, this will be identified in the air and there is no fooling the instructors, they know. What i'm saying is the manual can only do so much for you. I'm not giving people a magical pass to get through screening. The only ADV you can get is time in the air behind the controls

Also, suggest you look up the meaning of irony...

23rd Aug 2012, 08:55
too tall or too heavy and you won't get out in time.

Not quite correct, If your seated height is too tall, then your head will be above the horns (canopy breakers) on the seat, which means your head hits the canopy of the PC9 before the seat. Not a good thing. The over weight is due to the seat mounting ponts on the floor of the PC9. For other aircraft in the RAAF inventory, these limits may not matter so much, but as the Training aircraft for RAAF and Navy are PC9, then those limits apply for selection.

23rd Aug 2012, 10:09
Hi all,

I got back from FSP a month ago - unfortunately without a reccomendation which was somewhat disheartening at the time. However, I am still motivated to become an RAAF pilot and was thinking of waiting and re-applying again in 3 years or possibly even look at another avenue of entry, in particular aerospace engineering.

My question relates to changing job roles withing the RAAF while you still have an outstanding IMPS; has anyone heard of this happening?
I already spoke to recruiting and got the expected answer but was reading on the Defence Jobs website which stated that it was "subject to service requirements."

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.


Captain Sand Dune
24th Aug 2012, 07:28
The mass brief is a BAE systems doc...its a civilian run base (much to the dismay of the OSB)
If you mean the SATG, it is written by, amended by and owned by the ADF. And the ADF BFTS is a military unit. Please stop peddling your conspiracy theories.

25th Aug 2012, 21:47
Yeah SATG....if it exists which you just acknwledged, how is it a conspiracy ?
Its BAE & ADF co-branded, but really its irrelevant who does what in it isnt it.

Its a good read fo those going to FSP if you want a little pre-info on what your doing there. Its NOT going to fly the plane for you though.

Good luck !:ok:

25th Aug 2012, 23:47
Markoshark........ Mate, a bit of advice. You're carrying on like a pork chop and making yourself look like a goose. For your sake, stop.

Tamworth is a military base, run by the ADF ....... BAE do a nice job supporting the military effort ..... Not the other way around.

The Student Air Training Guide (SATG) exists on the intranet for military students studying the BFT and IPC courses. It is a military document. It provides no advantage to ADF FSP candidates who try and read it prior to FSP, because it has nothing to do with the FSP course. You are not taught the SATG and you are not assessed on the SATG. There are elements that differ between the SATG and FSP documents because they are indeed different courses. The FSP material is not on the intranet, so serving members and people off the street are equal at Flight Screening. It is that plain and simple.

FSP is about where you start, where you finish and how you go in the middle. It highlights your strengths, your weaknesses and as best as it can, provides some scope for future potential. A couple of pages telling you how to do climbing turns, fly straight and level and a loop is not the difference between you getting in or not.

Accept that there was only one person flying that plane - you. Accept that unfortunately you didn't perform to the required standard. It's a tough bullet to bite, but one you'd be catching regularly if you did earn a jersey. A bit of maturity would do yourself wonders. No doubt your dream came to an abrupt end and I feel sorry for you in that regard. I do however note that the ADF spent a significant sum of money on you and gave you every opportunity to perform the best you could. I have no doubt that you were instructed well and were fairly assessed. The ADF has done everything right by you. If you believe otherwise, lodge a dispute. Either way, this forum is not the place for your E&D complaints.

This is a forum for professionals and those that strive to be, as the name implies. Your disgruntled antics are pathetic. This thread is one of the largest and most read on the entire forum. It is meant to be an information source for aspiring military aviators. People from all over the world are reading this. Cut the crap mate.

26th Aug 2012, 04:12
How true is the old saying "many are called but few chosen".

The ADF can get all the applicants it needs and the whole process is sorting out those who have a good chance of making the grade.

Some of the important things they are looking for is leadership and skills to become a good officer. You could be the best flyer in the course and still not make the grade. You will be continually tested and watched for signs of lack of maturity. The ADF can get all the good aircrew it needs, but also needs people who do not spit the dumb, but most importantly can lead.

Some of the remarks I read make me cringe and wonder why you wasted your and the Air forces time going to Tamworth.

Time for some of you to understand that the ADF does not owe you anything.

All the best to those who are really trying



26th Aug 2012, 14:37
Hey Ryano,

The reason this thread goes on forever and loses any informative value is because of idiots like you wanting to fill it with personal insults which are testament to your immaturity & stupidity.

Furthermore as to your comments: BAE make the rules on the base, period. This came from Major Heffernan, current member of the OSB. If you think you know more about FSP that a member of the OSB at FSP then good luck to you mate.

SATG contains the exact notes from the FSP just just need a brain to be able to find the correct chapters in amongst the additional information (not a big one). I have a copy sent to me 3 weeks ago which i am looking at right now. I did FSP 4 weeks ago mate....think i remember the mass brief better than you.

Now you and the other wowsers stop destroying this thread. I originally posted to offer help to any FSP candidates who want to hear my experiences at FSP.

I wont be back to this thread as its clogging it up thread with people that thing PPRule is for personal insults and voicing of incorrect information:

Email me at: [email protected] if your wanting any advice or have any questions on FSP. THIS IS THE ENTIRE REASON THIS THREAD STARTED.
Im out...

26th Aug 2012, 21:46
Markoshark said
Im out...

Thank goodness for that...

I'm sure your email will be inundated by people hoping to glean some of your wisdom. :}

Please stay away.

Righto, now that's over, let's get back to what this thread is about, eh?

27th Aug 2012, 12:06
Hey guys,
Anyone else here rostered in for the Sept-Oct ADFA FSP? Almost 8 months on from my assessment day and a week before HSC exams and I'm looking forward to an intense fortnight! Anyone else on the course feel free to send me a message on here and good luck for what will no doubt be a tough next two months!


2nd Sep 2012, 23:35
I am not sure there is an essay writing on the assessment day but if yes, can anyone give me some of the topics??

4th Sep 2012, 04:31
Having recently attended the FSP and read some of the more than questionable posts on here I'm reluctant to weigh in with my two cents, but I will say this.

It does no good to try and get a leg-up at the screening program. You're being assessed on how well you'll do at flight school and the rest of your military career, not how well you can do in a two-week period. It is redundant to excel at the FSP due to some advantage you've gleaned, only to waste the defence force's time and the taxpayers' money by being chopped from the real thing once they find out you're no good.

Practise your maths and get a little stick time to be comfortable in the air, sure. But all of this attempting to level the playing field by getting the trade secrets is analagous to a med student only passing his exam by sneaking a peek at the answers - he's going to end up an incompetent doctor.


4th Sep 2012, 08:31
Hi Marko, just to clear up your concerns regarding the ADF people having an advantage, for any given intake, whether that is the RAAF, Army or Navy roughly 8 out of 10 spots are given to civilian personnel and the remaining 2 offered to "in service" applicants (This is an approximate figure). So regardless of how well the ADF guys do, you have to pretty much be the best out of all "in service" candidates to get a spot.

Regardless of where the "in service" candidate is in the pool, civilians with worse FSP and OSB scores often get picked ahead of the "in service" candidates due to the amount of civilians getting offered positions.

So I would not worry about whether or not the ADF guys are in front or have a perceived advantage as they only get offered a small percentage of the positions made available.

Speaking from experience, and as you should know the key for FSP is to work hard when in Tamworth. There is more than enough time to "chair fly" and go over the mass briefs so when you get in the CT4 you are just going through the motions.

I'd also recommend doing some research before arriving there on various Defence establishments around the country and what Squadrons are where etc. This is obviously for the OSB component.

Good luck to all who are applying for the ADF as a pilot. Work hard, be positive, dedicate yourself and do not worry too much about what others are doing/not doing.

4th Sep 2012, 09:20
Well said, mate, I hope you've had some success!

5th Sep 2012, 06:25
Hey Rookie,

How many people are in the pool now? I was on FSP in June but back then there were only 15...



8th Sep 2012, 21:54

I am in the process of emigrating to Australia for family reasons. I have just completed a BEng degree and have an interest in flying in the UK. I am therefore interested in opportunities to join the ADF as a Pilot.

Since I am aware I have to gain permanent residency before applying and the restrictions initially.

Can anyone advise me on the Pilot aptitude testing and officer selection process, or an associated link to an ADF official link?

Secondly, as I have a degree already would I go straight to Officer Training School? Would anyone kindly give me an insight to the content to this course, or an associated ADF link? Also an outline of the Pilot training would be helpful.

Many Thanks,


10th Sep 2012, 10:43
1.1.reading different scales in cockpit or similar
1.2.controlling dot movement using stick/mouse
1.3 ...
all time limiting

2. contact DFR and they will tell you the correct way.
If you do not want to waste your time you can apply now while waiting for your citizenship but they will only process your application once they see the receipt from immigration dep.and other support docs.

12th Sep 2012, 10:24
Many Thanks for your help. On another subject I'm guessing flying grading fsp carries more weight than computer based aptitude, one would hope!

Secondly, could I potentially join and go to OTS?

Yours kindly, thanks for your input.

18th Sep 2012, 09:04
Hi everyone,

I would like to share the following helpful hints for those who are heading off to flight screening.
1. Listen to your instructor, and do your best to do exactly what they tell you to. Sounds simple, but commonly done quite poorly.
2. You do not know how to a fly an aircraft the way the ADF want you to, unless you have been taught to wings standard in ADF training aircraft - so don't think your civilian flying experience makes you more prepared than the next guy. It usually works the opposite, as most young guys who have hundreds of hours of flying tend to think they know better than the guy sitting next to them.
3. Don't answer the instructor back. Explanations at the time are called reasons, those in retrospect are called excuses. The instructors are not interested in your excuses - they know why you stuff things up :)
4. You are not being taught to fly the CT4 at flight screening, so having the manual and knowing it front to back before hand matters not. You are being screened - not taught. Understand this core concept and why things flow fast on FSP will make sense.
5. If you aren't successful at flight screening, you are being saved from a tough, thankless job that you would end up hating. It doesn't make you any less of a person, so while it might be hard, take the positives out of it - accepting this before you go there lessens anxiety.
6. If you aren't interested in flying fighters - as in you don't really want to fly hornets, then don't bother applying. You should be aiming as high as you can, not looking for a cushy job hauling trash and earning cash like some people. Go work for the mines driving a truck if you want that life style. The RAAF want an airlift/maritime force of pilots who worked as hard as they could on course, not guys who did 'just enough' because they are allergic to hard work - those guys kill people. You think flying night low level in a P3 is an easy job that requires a low tolerance for hard work? Be serious with yourself about the hard work required.
7. If you have a uni degree, you will need to work hard to learn how to learn airborne. If you have only high school, you will need to work hard to learn how to learn airborne. If you have a CPL with 2000 hours, you will have to work hard to learn how to learn airborne.....get the picture? The way the ADF train is not replicated many places - so be ready to feel like you have no idea, its the normal.
8. Enjoy the program for what it is, and ask questions of the instructors about what life in the ADF is like for them.

Good luck people!

19th Sep 2012, 05:18

Excellent post, although I'm not sure if all those Army and Navy pilots that successfully complete screening and BFTS will necessarily agree with point 6:ok:
Sure you're not a 'staff' plant? :eek:

20th Sep 2012, 03:43
Hey guys,
I am heading to tamworth mid October and have been preparing thoroughly, although I would like to know what type of mental maths is used on a daily basis, and in regards to OSB, what maths questions are/have been asked of candidates??

Cheers, Dan

20th Sep 2012, 08:45
6. If you aren't interested in flying fighters - as in you don't really want to fly hornets, then don't bother applying. You should be aiming as high as you can, not looking for a cushy job hauling trash and earning cash like some people. Go work for the mines driving a truck if you want that life style.Lastvarker, pretty insulting mate to Army, Navy and RAAF for that matter. I worked damn hard to get here and all I want to do is fly Army choppers, or is that aiming too low? Get a grip mate. I could really let loose on this but I wont.

"Chopper Pilots- cause jet pilots need heroes too"

21st Sep 2012, 07:35
Anyone know when the next Army offers are coming out?

Arm out the window
21st Sep 2012, 08:08
If you aren't interested in flying fighters - as in you don't really want to fly hornets, then don't bother applying.

cj, got in just before me! For the RAAFies, unfortunately you can't fly helicopters any more, so you may have to settle for those loud pointy kero-to-noise converters.

I also think Julian Assange should get onto this so-called 'SATG' ... SATG....if it exists which you just acknwledged,
, or perhaps get Mulder and Scully out of retirement to get to the bottom of this - the public have a right to know!

Captain Sand Dune
21st Sep 2012, 09:37
Yup, if you can't hover you're.................oh hang on, can't say things like that any more:E

21st Sep 2012, 16:21
*crawls out of hole*
"I.... I made it"

Hi guys,

I just read through most of the pages of this Goliath thread, and I am very thankful of everybody's valuable input (apart from all the drama).

I've got my APT for ADFA Pilot next Thursday, which is probably a bad idea as all the HSC students will be applying around this time... but oh well.

Hoping for the best, thanks again forum dwellers of PPRuNe!

22nd Sep 2012, 00:17
(Again RAAF'ies only) but if you're good enough to fly fighters that is where you will go. We need more Hornet drivers and from a company viewpoint the system of best on course picking where HE/SHE wanted to go was just not working. It would be a very difficult line to tread at 2FTS to see you're doing 'too well' to get 'your' C-17 slot and then to try to stuff stuff up just enough to get it....

Captain Sand Dune
22nd Sep 2012, 01:25
So we send the top performers on course to fast jets even if they don't want to go there. Guess what happens next? Wasted time and (LOTS) of money when they fail.
If ACG want more pilots, they need to change the way they do business in terms of training and utilisation. Why do you think the numbers of trainee pilots wanting a FJ slot have dropped?

22nd Sep 2012, 03:04
Captain Sand Dune and others... I agree with you, but this argument was played out earlier this year on this thread, and added very little value to the topic of Flight Screening... People got upset (mainly some old knucks...) and the topic strayed without helping those who are keen to get some good gouge on Flight Screening. Can I politely suggest we don't stoke this fire?

Captain Sand Dune
22nd Sep 2012, 22:01
But it's so much fun!!!:E

24th Sep 2012, 13:01
Ref my earlier post - (point 6) sorry i kind of assumed as neither army nor navy have jest this was obvious, but that point wasn't aimed at army or navy, hence No insult intended - talking to the RAAF focused audience only. If you want to fly choppers for army or mavy then power to you, I'm sure that would be a rewarding and enjoyable career. :ok:

Now I've got my grip back.....

To all those who are looking for a rotary career - please feel free to take what you want from the original post - but if you think I wrote that as some underhanded shot at rotary - I could have used far less words to better effect.

I have a lot of respect for the fine work done by the army and navy, as well as the RAAF - I'm not insecure about saying it :-)

And point 9. Gratification for your job should come from within: no one is going to be there after every flight to tell you how awesome you are because you fly tiger, or a C17, or a Seahawk etc. So if you are easily put off by not being made to feel special - you are perusing the wrong career.

Cj: Next time ask for clarification, I'm happy to give it.


1st Oct 2012, 05:10
Hello Fellow PPRuNers,

Any Idea how many people are in the Pool???


2nd Oct 2012, 03:55
Hey Skyhigh,

Last I heard (a couple of weeks ago) there were about 50 in the pool with another 60 to go through flight screening between then and november. Just call PSA on the details you were given when you went on flight screening and ask for an update - they'll tell you your rough position, whether or not you are competative for a position in the next intake and the number in the pool.



2nd Oct 2012, 12:12
Hey guys, I'm 15 years old and want to join the RAAF as it is my dream ever since I've been young. At the moment I'm focusing really hard in order to get this except one thing I can't figure out is how to get life experience. I've talked to a guy who went through FSP a few months ago and passed and he said community service sort of things. Does anyone else have anything like this (except for sports)?

Thanks in advance!

3rd Oct 2012, 05:33
I'd suggest any volunteer work you could get into. For example, Rural fire service, surf life saving, SES etc. Keep in mind some of these do have age requirements before joining.

I'd also suggest getting a job and join cadets if you haven't already.

Also, does anyone have any idea how many people are in the waiting pool for those applying for ADFA entry?

Have a good one,

3rd Oct 2012, 07:39
Thanks a lot Generate I will definitely pursue and consider some of these options. I already have a job and I'm joining cadets next week so I've got that covered and I just have to work towards everything bit by bit.


Dilmah G
7th Oct 2012, 08:18
Juicey, I was your age when I first stumbled upon this thread, and then I read it in its entirety from the beginning over the course of a week. I suggest you do the same and then come back if you have any questions.

Don't worry too much about the life experience thing. I asked a FLTLT about it who was running an Officer Selection Board information session and his response was that it basically referred to the breadth of experience that you had to draw from in answering questions put to you. I.e. one of the potential things he brought up was that I didn't have a lot of experience leading in an adult environment, and if I couldn't convince the Board that I could on the day and didn't have any examples to back myself up in the interview that I could, the Board may not have recommended me based on my lack of that kind of life experience (they did recommend me, however, so there you go).

I have no doubt that it varies, but ultimately I don't think you should worry. Read through the thread and work out for yourself what you need to do and get on it. And don't mind the dumb posts that I've made in the past. I was *learning*. :p

8th Oct 2012, 06:54
G'day all,

Wondered if anyone could possibly give me some insight into the process which is applied to applicants who have passed FSP and are waiting in "the pool", specifically in regards to how they are chosen to receive enlistment offers.

My understanding was that you are awarded a score after the OSB which reflects your performance throughout all aspects of the recruitment process and that this score dictates where you ended up swimming in the pool. When offers come up, the applicants with the best scores are simply called first.

However, I recently heard a different theory... That you are awarded a score, and then this score is multiplied by your submitted preference for a particular service, and that there are actually three separate pools (Army/Navy/RAAF).

Meaning that had you not performed as well as another candidate but had a higher preference than them for a particular service, you might still have a better chance than them at getting an offer for that particular service.

Anyone able to confirm or deny this at all?

Thanks for any help, and best of luck with your applications.

8th Oct 2012, 07:14
Posted by Foxtrot in DG and P Reporting Points -

6th Aug 2012


Speaking of books...
Straight after finishing RdC's story about QF32, I downloaded Fighter Pilot - Misadventures beyond the sound barrier with a real Topgun by Mac 'Serge' Tucker on the weekend.

Awkward title, but what a great read! A no punches pulled story about his (too short) career as an RAAF Hornet driver, with some great warries and poignant moments thrown in for good measure. As Molly would say, do yourself a favour...

Nice one Serge!

Have to endorse these comments. Serge's book is 100 pc authentic, honest, and very, very OZ in content and style. Also, where funny, it is side splittingly hilarious.

Essential reading for all aspiring to RAAF wings.

8th Oct 2012, 07:18
Why do you think the numbers of trainee pilots wanting a FJ slot have dropped?

WHAT?? What trainee on earth would ever say that they didn't want to fly the F-18, either classic or SuperBug? Weed them out and send them to learn knitting and flower arrangment - to which they would undoubtedly be far better suited.

I believe that 'wusses' is the correct term in the Antipodean vernacular?

8th Oct 2012, 10:38
WHAT?? What trainee on earth would ever say that they didn't want to fly the F-18, either classic or SuperBug? Weed them out and send them to learn knitting and flower arrangment - to which they would undoubtedly be far better suited.

I believe that 'wusses' is the correct term in the Antipodean vernacular?

Student pilots who desire helicopters or ME more than fighters is not that unusual, in my experience. To each his/her own.

9th Oct 2012, 06:15
Does anyone know when is the best time to apply? Like the time when there will be the least amount of applicants (I presume its around April - June).

9th Oct 2012, 11:55
Sooner rather than later......

The whole recruitment process can be more than a year long, particularly if you live far away from a DFR office.

Ain't no time like the present to get the ball rolling....

9th Oct 2012, 13:04
Fair enough, but I am going ADFA so I don't think the time of year which I apply will make a difference anyways :P (I realised this about 15 minutes after posting).

10th Oct 2012, 09:02

Ryano is right and if your going for ADFA 2013 I think you have missed the boat

10th Oct 2012, 12:03
I plan on going to ADFA in 2014, this is because I plan to take a year off to 'mature myself'.

By the way, does anyone know what kind of questions they ask at OSB? Even the generic ones would be great, because so far in this thread (unless I've missed it) they say prepare for OSB, but I don't know the questions, so how can I prepare for questions I don't know right? ;)

Any other tips would be great for any part of the selection process.

Ozzie Flyer
10th Oct 2012, 15:52
I received an invitation to a FSP, however I have not received any paperwork from DFR saying I have been fit for board or passed assessment day. I know I passed the assessment day interview but I have some medical issues. Did anyone get any paperwork saying the are cleared for board or were you guys just told in person?

10th Oct 2012, 22:22
GU, mate, I'm going to say that you've missed it.... Try reading the thread with both eyes open!! There's plenty of questions you can expect to be asked buried deep right here. Go to page one and start from there. Time is on your side.

10th Oct 2012, 23:06
I plan on going to ADFA in 2014, this is because I plan to take a year off to
'mature myself'.

By the way, does anyone know what kind of questions they
ask at OSB? Even the generic ones would be great, because so far in this thread
(unless I've missed it) they say prepare for OSB, but I don't know the
questions, so how can I prepare for questions I don't know right? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

other tips would be great for any part of the selection process.

Dude, there are 117 pages in this thread. There is a very high probability that there are detailed answers to any questions you have. There is also a high chance that questions you havent even thought about, or other things that you havent considered are covered.

Life isnt always going to give you the answer on a silver platter, so invest some time in your own development and read the thread.

From Left Field
16th Oct 2012, 07:50
LongLats wrote:

I went through flight screening almost 2 years ago and was knocked back. I was pretty gutted but now determined to have another crack at it.

I've since completed a science degree and got my CPL and MECIR along with a frozen ATPL. It'll be 2 years in Feb so I'm going to reapply.

Has anyone experienced or heard of anyone not getting recommended at flight screening and going back a second time to gain entry into the forces? I'm worried my chances of even getting to flight screening again will be reduced because I've already blown my first chance.

Hi LongLats,

From my understanding (and please note that I'm not affiliated with the ADF or PSA, so this reply is open for correction!), you are still welcome to reapply to DFR. However, once you have done the initial DFR steps again, you will then sit only the OSB at Tamworth; you will not redo the flying phase. Once you have completed the flying phase of FSP, your file and scores are kept for any future application (i.e. you only fly at FSP once).

So, you will sit an OSB, psychology assessment, etc. at PSA but it will be your FSP flying scores from 2 years ago that will be considered in your new application.

Remember the flying you have done since (your CPL, etc.) will only be seen by the PSA as a sign of your personal attributes (e.g. determination and perseverance to fly). Only your performance at your initial FSP will be considered in determining your ability to learn in the air.

If your flying at your first FSP was up to scratch, you certainly won't be the first to be rejected, then reapply and succeed. By all means, give it a crack.

Good on you for keeping the dream alive and backing it up with a BSc too! You must have been really cut out making ends meet between uni, work and flying training. I'm sure the ADF would regard this highly in your new application. Best of Luck!


16th Oct 2012, 12:20
FLF, I was under the impression you could return to the FSP after a period of three years and re-sit the flying component? Could well be wrong!

From Left Field
16th Oct 2012, 13:07
FLF, I was under the impression you could return to the FSP after a period of three years and re-sit the flying component? Could well be wrong!

Looks like we're wide open for correction... anyone know what the case is? CSD perhaps?

17th Oct 2012, 11:22
Thanks for all your help so far.

I've decided I'm going to go off to ADFA. Does anyone know how what the process is like to get into ADFA?


19th Oct 2012, 21:53
You may if, you wish re-do, the flying component of FSP after three years. don't forget that it will take a bit of time getting through the recruiting process so apply before the three years is up.

22nd Oct 2012, 23:46
Hi guys,

Was wondering if someone could PM me the contact details for PSA. I wanted to call them to have a chat about my file, and I cannot find the contact details anywhere on the Air Force PSA site.

Thanks in advance.

7th Nov 2012, 23:31
Does anyone have an idea when you would start initial officer training if you get accepted for a spot in the november distribution???

I would guess next year because its too close to xmas but anything more definitive than that would be great.


Very Sneaky
8th Nov 2012, 01:48
Hi guys,

Long time reader first time poster here! I've just finished reading through this thread and I'd just like to give a big thank you to all of those who have contributed, especially the FSP staff and any current/ex pilots for imparting your wisdom! I've found it extremely helpful and hopefully it gives me that edge in preparation to have a successful application.

A bit about me, I'm 23, from Melbourne and currently studying a BBus (Marketing) degree which I hope to finish mid way through 2013. I have completed both the YOU session and specialist aircrew testing successfully and just waiting for educational exemptions to be processed by DFR (I didn't complete the right math subjects at high school, doh!). For those of you interested; I completed a maths unit via OUA (Open Universities), specifically through Murdoch, to gain equivalency for the requirements and a second maths unit to solidify my understanding. It has not been approved as yet but I have emails from VCAA confirming its equivalency to the Victorian Maths Methods standard. I have ~10 hours powered flight time, close to my first solo and considering time in a glider and possibly a couple of aerobatic lessons.

In preparation for the YOU session, if any of you are worried about it, I recommend Free Practice Psychometric Tests, Psychometric Tests Examples - Aptitude Tests, Personality Tests Examples and Psychometric Test Courses Online (http://www.psychometricinstitute.com). They have a large number of practice aptitude questions and while not all of the areas are relevant, I definitely found it very helpful at an affordable price. I DO NOT, however recommend http://www.defenceaptitude.com.au; I was dismayed to find the quality of the materials lower than what I was exposed to in primary school, and after leaving some polite constructive feedback received an abusive phone call. Avoid this site.

For those who have or have had asthma, I have this to say: I had childhood asthma and have not had any symptoms in the past 5+ years. I was required to obtain specialist lung reports, specifically for a spirometry and aridol (mannitol) challenge test or BPT (Bronchial Provocation Test). This was all clear and I have been cleared medically to proceed (having said that, I haven't yet attended assessment day for the more comprehensive medical assessment)

Assessment day is the next stage in my application, and primarily from my attendance at the ADFA open day a couple of years ago at the advice of the RAAFie giving the presentation (can't remember his name!), I have gathered that the defence interview is ranked in competitiveness based on 5 factors which are scored individually out of 5. In no particular order, they were:

- Military Motivation
- Flight Motivation
- Team Experience
- Leadership Experience
- Academics

I'm not sure if there are different weightings to each of these categories, but it is my understanding that these scores are then put into a system and candidates are ranked based on their final score, of which the top are selected for any given FSP place availabilities! I'm also not sure if this is specific to ADFA only, but it would make sense if this is also applied to DEO.

I've been preparing for this since I attended the open day (maybe a bit before) over 2 years ago so I'm fairly apprehensive, hopefully it pays off!

One question I do have; Does anybody know what the recruitment climate for pilots is like at the moment? Or any specifics on intake numbers for ADFA/DEO?



Edit: Sorry for the long post!

13th Nov 2012, 22:53
Sky high from what I hear its going to be end of jan when you start

Sneaky, in all seriousness mate I respect your preparation and effort you have put towards getting in but their is one hard reality that you should plan for the most.

If you have passed the you session and specialist pilot testing you will most likely pass the assessment day providing you can sell yourself well. Once you have passed that , the real test is up next

Regardless of your prepping, when you're up in the pilot seat you either have that natural ability or you don't. Civilian flying hours really are to familiarise you with a plane and that is how you should treat it. It will not teach you how to fly a ct -4. I can guarantee you that. Gliding is great experience for flying and I would recommend that but I urge you to prep yourself mentally. You will feel down at some point and you will need to dig deep and stay focused. Believe in your ability and accept the fact that you may be good enough or you may not be. This is not a maths test that you can study for.

Also if you find chair flying is not for you, don't waste your time doing it , an early night sleep rather than staying up chair flying and studying does a lot more for you

I won't say any more about flight screening as I know PSA would prefer details of the 2 weeks to not be discussed, but good luck to you and all others

Very Sneaky
14th Nov 2012, 23:22
Thanks for the advice mate,

I've spent a lot of time contemplating my desire to do this for the past couple of years, and have long since come to the firm conclusion that this is what I want to do and am prepared to do whatever it takes to get there. I don't feel as though my motivation or any lack there of will create any problems for me because of this, as I know exactly what it is I want and how far I'm willing to push myself for that.

Having said this, you're right in that successful flight screening is for the naturally gifted. I seem to have adapted to the air quickly enough, but whether I meet this standard is another question. It is also one for which there is nothing I can do to prepare, so instead I prefer to concentrate on elements within my control :)

Good tip on the chair flying; I haven't yet done any so I'll have to try it out to find out!



15th Nov 2012, 03:43
Hey all,

Just wanted to say first a huge thank you to everyone who's contributed (positively) to this thread :O I just finished reading through the whole thing, and have gained some awesome insight into the entire process. I'm currently in the process, just finished additional testing and waiting on an assessment day date. I just had a few more things that I want to clarify:

1. What is the accommodation situation at Tamworth? Is it organised by PSA, or are candidates expected to organise their own accommodation? No troubles either way, just curious.

2. I recently called DFR and asked how to get into contact with a currently-serving pilot, but the kind lady who answered had no idea. I tried to find the number for my closest base (Amberley) but couldn't find one. Does anyone know the best way to go about this? Or, if there are any current-serving pilots on these forums that want to message me, that'd be awesome :O On that note, I'd love to contact a pilot from each stream (ACG, ALG and SRG), is this possible?

3. I noticed a few pages back that the whole basic/advanced system had been changed at FSP, does anyone know in the current situation, how many flying hours puts you in each category?

4. Should the assessment day go well, and depending on the answer to the previous question, I'm planning on getting about 10-15 hours in the air before (hopefully) heading to Tamworth. One of the ways I was going to go about this is the ADF Cram Course at Red Baron Flight Training (Red Baron | Advanced Flight Training | Bankstown Airport Sydney (http://www.redbaron.com.au/flight_training/courses/cram.html)). I've heard only good things about this course, and I don't mind spending the $$, but I'm wondering if it would be more beneficial to take that $2550 and spend it on ~10 hours in a glider? What do you guys think? Ideally, I'd like to do the Red Baron course and put a few glider hours on top of that, but I'll have to see how the financial situation goes later in the process.

Again, thanks to everyone who has contributed! And sorry for the long post :ok:

16th Nov 2012, 12:03
Hi Frappe,

Try calling the Defence Switchboard on 1300 333 362, they should be able to connect you to your closest base.

To add to what VS recommended regarding practice aptitude tests I found these helpful in preparing:

Assesment, IQ and Aptitude Test Training (http://www.fibonicci.com/)

How to pass aptitude tests with example tests (http://www.kent.ac.uk/careers/psychotests.htm)

Defence International Training Centre (http://www.defence.gov.au/ditc/courses/maths/default.htm)

Aptitude test questions (http://www.humanresources.hrvinet.com/aptitude-test-questions/)

Apologies if some of these links have been posted before.....

16th Nov 2012, 20:51
Just pmed you mate

29th Nov 2012, 01:37
I guess it depends on how big the pool is and how many get picked up in the next intake.

29th Nov 2012, 13:50
Hey mate,

RAAF, RAN and ARA offers went out on the 20th so if you didn't recieved a call you've missed out this time. From what I remember being told when I was on flight screening, the next intake is in April (though you probably have a more up to date time). When the offers went out there was approx 70 candidates in the pool for RAAF and 15 offers were given out. Not sure about the size of the RAAF/RAN pools.

Best of luck,


3rd Dec 2012, 00:26
Hi Liz,

From what I have been told there have actually been 2 distributions since March this year; one in June (while I was on flight screening actually) and the other was at the same time as the RAAF/RAN distributions on the 20th November. If you want to know when the distributions are going out just call the Pilot selection agency with the details your husband would have received in his FSP joining instructions.

Good luck,


3rd Dec 2012, 04:34

I believe what you are referring to which took place on Nov 20th was not an intake, but actually the date on which the ADF phoned potential RAAF/RAN/Army officers swimming in the pool and informed them that they were taking the next steps towards sending them an offer for enlistment; the associated enlistment dates being early in 2013.

From the limited information I've gleaned I think the next call out will be in April 2013.

Hope that helps,


4th Dec 2012, 01:15
I'm interested in the 'ADF Flight Screening Cram Course' at Red Baron.....

Good on you guys for supporting GA though, if it makes you feel better about your chances at FSP, sounds like a win to me. Always be honest with the number of hours you have actually flown when you arrive....

The FSP instructors will know when you have more flying than you let on too, if you are one of those. FSP is exactly what the name says - flight screening, not flight training, hence conducting other flying before hand there is usually very little benefit to your performance at FSP. The reason is that the rate at which new sequences are introduced on FSP is in excess of what even the most capable pilots can keep up with - and its designed that way so the instructors can assess where you sit on the bell curve.

My best advice still remains to LISTEN to your FSP QFI. They have all the information you will need. Most guys who come unstuck are either not suitable, or just too ignorant to understand that they have an expert sitting with them giving them the answers...there are no secrets, they tell you everything!

All the best, thanks to those supporting Australian General Aviation.

Very Sneaky
5th Dec 2012, 00:52
OK, so I have my assessment day coming up this Monday (10/12/12), and have been preparing using the defencejobs website and the letter that DFR sent me in the mail, which from what I can tell it seems fairly basic.

I bought the "Wings" book a few months ago as a preparation tool, and there seems to be a big contrast in what should be prepared for between the two, specifically in terms of the detail. I've read a few posts in this thread in regards to this book about claims of it being inaccurate in areas and unhelpful.. My question I guess is whether the guide provided for assessment day in the book (chapter 3) is an accurate representation of questions and topics that will be covered in the respective interviews, and whether I am safe using it to prepare?

If anybody has any insight in to preparation for assessment day it would be much appreciated!!



5th Dec 2012, 20:10
So I have been trying to up my general fitness.....and thought a good goal may be to attain the RAAF requirement of 2.4 k run, the push ups, sit ups etc. ...But I cannot seem to find what the swim requirement is? Does anybody know what the swimming component consists of?? I guess It's just a few 100m, and treading water full clothed, or something like that...? Thanks in advance :ok:

6th Dec 2012, 00:50
Hi VS,

I used the book whilst going through recruiting this year and must say it was an invaluable resource. There are areas in which the book is inaccurate (only this such as aircraft in service, pay rates etc - anything that has changed since it was published.) The Defence Jobs website really doesn't push the study and prep as much as it should (particularly for a pilot - it is a very competitive position). I ended up committing most of the info in the Wings book to memory; the defence interviewer said I was one of the best applicants she had ever interviewed. That got me onto flight screening shortly after. Study just as much for your OSB and you'll be leaving Tamworth with a high recommendation. AS long as you double check anything that may be outdated in the book you'll find it to be very useful.



6th Dec 2012, 03:12

Check pm's

Very Sneaky
6th Dec 2012, 22:08
Thanks Steve!

That makes me feel a lot better about it haha. I guess the next few days will be spent going over every relevant detail then! Another thing I wanted to clarify; Is there currently a written component to Assessment Day? I've seen past posts make reference to an essay, but when I asked my case manager he said "we aren't supposed to know what is involved in assessment day for pilots", but went on to say he didn't think there was. This obviously didn't fill me with confidence. Can anybody confirm?



7th Dec 2012, 00:12
Hi Queestce,

To be honest I'm only sure about the army. I was told the calls for army would be in early March. Received this info from Tamworth when I called.


Well I've no idea about March or April really, but at the risk of being fairly transparent I can confirm that Army offers have come out for entry in Jan 2013, and that calls were definitely made to successful applicants on the 20th Nov.

Best of luck to your husband!

Dilmah G
7th Dec 2012, 06:38

All Officer jobs have an essay component on Assessment Day, including Pilot. Don't be too stressed, it'll only go for half an hour and they're not expecting a novel. Hell, I didn't even finish mine when I had mine for Reserve GSO and 0 ****s were given by the Psych as far as I could tell. You might not want to do that though, finishing is good.

Very Sneaky
8th Dec 2012, 03:16
Thanks Dilmah.

I'm not terribly concerned with my written expression, I just wanted to brush up on some content for anything that we may be required to write about. Were you given a selection of topics or asked to write about one thing in particular?

I don't think it would be terribly difficult to guess that the questions will revolve around topics of leadership, motivation, communication or expectations of the adf etc., but the wings book has sample questions relating to topics like WW2 and Anzac day, which I'll admit I don't have an extensive or detailed knowledge of.



9th Dec 2012, 04:07
I should have clarified that we are waiting on an SSO position - not GSO.

Dilmah G
9th Dec 2012, 15:06

Honestly mate, I can't remember too much. I did this back in about Feb now, but I believe it was just one question. From memory, mine was something about the Victoria Cross. Either that, or I recall mentioning it in my response.

That list you've got seems to cover the general ballpark of questions I've heard of people getting, and to be honest, you'd probably be better served by searching this thread for the word 'essay' than my response, because I remember literally 6/5 of **** all.

I can tell from your written expression that you're not illiterate, and so you should be fine. Although if I was the psych, I'd find a lack of knowledge about ANZAC Day and WWII a bit concerning from someone who wants to be a part of a service to whom those two mean quite a bit too. Take that with a grain of salt, though - my degree couldn't be further from psychology!

You'll write another essay at your Officer Selection Board, and that will be one (in my experience) which you'll have ample prep material for. If you get that far, concentrating on essay basics and generally being confident and direct with what you're saying might be a good idea, but otherwise I wouldn't stress too much about the essay on Assessment Day.

Very Sneaky
10th Dec 2012, 08:22
Thanks mate,

That was some good advice. I had my Assessment Day today and the essay was nothing to worry about. It was a 3 part question, and so ended up being more like 3 short answer questions and was related to my desire to be an officer, personal qualities that I have which are pertinent to the commission and one other thing which I've since forgotten.

I've been recommended by both psychology and defence (very competitively from what I've been told), but unfortunately I've been issued with a class 3R medical for ambiguity surrounding a *possible* migraine that I had when I was 12 and an unconfirmed acid reflux diagnosis. I'll get specialist reports for both of these and hopefully everything clears up. I had no idea that either of these things would be serious issues!


11th Dec 2012, 05:42
A quick question for those who may be able to help. I am curious to know what initial rank DEO and ADFA Officer Cadets are provided upon completion of initial employment training? I have heard both PLTOFF and FLGOFF.

Any help via PM or post would be great.


11th Dec 2012, 07:00

PLTOFF. FLGOFF is immediately superior to that.

Very Sneaky
11th Dec 2012, 21:38
@frappe: Are you sure? I was under the impression that directly after having completed ADFA, cadets were awarded the rank of FLGOFF (pre employment training), and DEO were awarded the rank of PLTOFF having completed OTS. I have also heard that degree qualified DEO candidates who graduate OTS are awarded a FLGOFF rank.

Happy to be corrected as I can't find where I read this, and may be outdated, but this was certainly the impression I got after my conversation with a FLTLT last week.

11th Dec 2012, 22:34
I should've clarified I'm probably not an extremely reliable source, I was just going off what I'd read on the RAAF and defencejobs sites, so I could be very wrong, but I haven't heard anything about degree-qualified applicants going straight to FLGOFF. I'd be interested to know if anyone knows for sure though.

Brendan Gialanze
12th Dec 2012, 05:23

12th Dec 2012, 06:20
DEO have the rank of OFFCDT until finishing Pilots course. Then if you have a Degree you will be given the rank of FLGOFF, if you do not you will be a PLTOFF.
For ADFA graduates they are given PLTOFF on completion from ADFA unless they are Btech Aero students, who remain an OFFCDT. They only do two years at ADFA, using pilots course as the final year of their degree. Upon successful completion of Pilots course all ADFA graduates assume FLGOFF.

Very Sneaky
12th Dec 2012, 21:46
Hi Brendan,

You will find the answers to all of your questions, and many that you have not yet asked in the contents of this thread. I would suggest reading through the entire thing as soon as possible; I've found it a great source of information and invaluable in terms of preparation for the recruiting process.
Also in terms of what to expect and what the ADF are looking for, the "Wings" book is also a good preparation tool if you can afford the $40 to buy it: Get Your Wings (http://getyourwings.com.au/)

DEO have the rank of OFFCDT until finishing Pilots course. Then if you have a Degree you will be given the rank of FLGOFF, if you do not you will be a PLTOFF.
For ADFA graduates they are given PLTOFF on completion from ADFA unless they are Btech Aero students, who remain an OFFCDT. They only do two years at ADFA, using pilots course as the final year of their degree. Upon successful completion of Pilots course all ADFA graduates assume FLGOFF.

Ah, this makes sense.. and would explain why there isn't an outstanding ROSO for DEO candidates who fail their employment training. I was assuming that the increase in pay having finished OTS was for a commission.

Dilmah G
13th Dec 2012, 01:32

I'd highly recommend you message one of the moderators or admins here and see if you can get that username of yours changed, as well as editing your post so that your full name isn't present.

It's all well and good to allow the thread participants to become familiar with you, but using your real name on the internet in conjunction with some specific details about your activity in a place where your anonymity in the recruiting process and personal security in general can be compromised is not a smart move. Facebook notwithstanding.

13th Dec 2012, 09:06
The information regarding the BTech guys at ADFA is a little dated. All degrees are now a minimum of three years in length and ADFA RAAF undergraduates all leave as PLTOFFs and receive their next promotion upon gaining their wings. Promotion to FLTLT is then, from memory, five years after that although that may have changed with the new promotion requirements.

13th Dec 2012, 12:52
That was a few years ago. I didn't evan question why there was no OFFCDT ADFA graduates coming through here now.

Very Sneaky
17th Dec 2012, 01:35
After having a conversation with my enlistment coordinator today, I can confirm that they've changed the structure of FSP to split courses into:

Basic: <10 hours
Intermediate: 10-50 hours
Advanced: 50+ hours

20th Dec 2012, 02:13
Just wondering if anyone on here could tell me if offers for ADFA pilot come out today? If not today, then can anyone tell me the correct date please?

Thanks in advance,

27th Dec 2012, 21:12
Does anyone know how long it takes to get on a FSP course?

29th Dec 2012, 01:32
Depends on how you performed during your YOU session, specialist testing and assesment day. There isn't really any way of knowing for sure. Talk to your case manager and ask them how competative you are for a position.

29th Dec 2012, 22:46
thanks. Have had a couple of case managers that do not seem overly informed.

31st Dec 2012, 02:38
After having a conversation with my enlistment coordinator today, I can confirm that they've changed the structure of FSP to split courses into:

Basic: <10 hours
Intermediate: 10-50 hours
Advanced: 50+ hoursHi VS,
Does this means flying experience of candidates?

4th Jan 2013, 00:55
Does this means flying experience of candidates?
The best (read: easiest) way for people to do it is just stay below 10.0 hours.

Winged Wombat
8th Jan 2013, 21:50
The FSP is a selection process/tool not a training device.

Previous flying experience (PFE) is used to determine which level of FSP you complete. Do NOT limit yourself by fantasy PFE limits in order to control which level of FSP you complete. Fly if you are passionate and can afford to. If you cannot fly then know LOTS about aircraft, particulalrly the aircraft type you want to fly. The key here is to show the assessors that you are as keen as mustard for the job. There are many ways of showing this and PFE is just one of those ways.

There would probably be nothing more frustrating for a board officer than interviewing a candidate who knows nothing about the job and is not passionate about the role.:ugh:

The need for fast jet pilots is probably increasing all the time and the need for multi engined pilots is probably limited by excesses in the system. READ- RAAF probably highly focussed on fast jet selection, though there will always be some requirement to recruit and train pilots for ME aircraft.

However, the FSP and PSA are not RAAF centric and a career in either of the other services is guaranteed to provide a challenging and very rewarding career opportunity so don't get hung up on RAAF. Look around at what the other services can offer.

Passion and a determined and focussed application is key. If you're not in this category then you should look at other careers. It is competitive. It is challenging and it will be exciting and it can be disappointing. Just like the real job!:E

Remember the 6 P's. Prior Preparation Prevents :mad: Poor Performance

Captain Sand Dune
8th Jan 2013, 23:26
Well said W.W.:ok:
I would strongly advise all those whom aspire to fly in the ADF to read and remember Winged Wombat's post. He speaks the truth.
I would like to think I know what I'm talking about in this regard (however I'm sure someone will challange me on that one!) as I was on staff at BFTS for 7 1/2 years.

Winged Wombat
9th Jan 2013, 02:55

You asked .....

"By the way, does anyone know what kind of questions they
ask at OSB? Even the generic ones would be great, because so far in this thread
(unless I've missed it) they say prepare for OSB, but I don't know the
questions, so how can I prepare for questions I don't know right?

Just put yourself in the board's shoes. They have to work out what risk each candidate presents. Your FSP result is one important link in that decision making matrix. You NEED to do as well as you possibly can at the FSP. The rest is probably all about your personal qualities and why you're asking to become a pilot with Defence. Think about what's driving you.

Imagine you are about to decide to employ someone who is going to cost you about $4M to train before you even get any production out of them. By the way it's probably about $10M for a fast jet pilot. What questions would you ask and how would you decide whether the risk is appropriate or not. It's not rocket science.

You'll probably never be fully prepared for the OSB. Accept that. There will likely be questions you can't answer. However if you are motivated correctly you will easily be able to answer most questions because you're naturally interested in the subject. Don't kid yourself. Unless your absolutely and relentlessly driven about the opportunity, you probably won't be successful.

All the pilots I know remain completely addicted to aircraft and aviation, whether they're in the civilian industry like me or still in the military side of things. It's a bug and you'll know if you've got it or not because you just can't get rid of it. ;)

Captain Sand Dune
9th Jan 2013, 06:06
You saying I've got bugs?:}:}

Winged Wombat
9th Jan 2013, 20:34
You know me better than you think.........

10th Jan 2013, 13:04
Winged Wombat is correct about the FJ pilots. It is a major focus, 2FTS is all about providing 79SQN a quality product and they need more than we can provide. As such the training is all about extending your flying skills and extending you as an individual. To achieve this the curriculum is a challenging and ever evolving beast.

What do we need of the trainee... dedication, hard work, co-operation, guts, grit and determination, respect and over all integrity mixed in with ability and capacity. Not just for flight screening but all of the way until Wings and beyond.

A better product for 79SQN has other benefits for the rest of the customers. Those who don't make it to FJ's for what ever reason will be well positioned to flow on to the other types who are facing ever challenging operational tasking. They also require highly skilled and dedicated individuals.

Those who where well rehearsed to pass flight screening but lack some or all of the above criteria, will be weeded out at some stage.

My two cents. Good luck.


17th Jan 2013, 01:59
A couple of questions for the floor:

In relation to an Army SSO Pilot, would they do the Aviation Medical Cse before or during Basic Flying Training? Is this done at Tamworth or RAAF Base Edinburgh?

Secondly, do Army Pilots attend Combat Survival Training at RAAF Townsville, or does the Army run its own course elsewhere?

Captain Sand Dune
17th Jan 2013, 08:07
would they do the Aviation Medical Cse before or during Basic Flying Training? During
Is this done at Tamworth or RAAF Base Edinburgh?
do Army Pilots attend Combat Survival Training at RAAF Townsville, or does the Army run its own course elsewhere? Not 100% sure, however I think Army does it own.

Does any of this matter?