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20th Nov 2009, 09:29
Dilmah is correct.

You session

Assessment day

Flight screening/OSB

If you pass each of these successfully then you go into a distribution pool, the ADF then selects candidates out of the top of these pools when they need pilots. You remain in the pool for a year.

20th Nov 2009, 11:02
Hey Guys,
I haven't had a chance to check this thread in a while and it seems there has been a lot of repeat threads posted on here. For anyone wanting to know anything specific about the recruitment process, have a look back through this thread first. This thread is incredibly helpful but show some imitative and don't take the easy option.
This may help you in the future if you do get to OTS as I can attest to. I'm in my 6th week and to say it has been full on would be an understatement. You need to be on the ball all the time and people that take the easy option are found out very easily.
As for young guys and gals not sure about DEO or ADFA options - Don't listen to all the rumours that they wont take anyone to that is to young for DEO. There are 9 pilots on our intake, and 4 of them are under 20. Two of them are only 18 and they are holding there own very well. Be confident about your ability and show you are ready to work your ass off. On the other hand, ADFA isn't a bad idea if you know there are a few qualities you need to work on, and you get a degree at the same time.
Not sure about the intakes for next year but I'd have to agree with Ryano that there seems to be a lot of guys that have gone through recently and with not many leaving. I went to FSP with Ryano and he has great knowledge of not only the ADF but the requirements and the processes as well, well worth listening to!!
All the best for everyone going through the recruitment process at the moment!

21st Nov 2009, 15:28
Well actually Tony I've done it all this year and thats what I did.. my assessment day consisted of my Spec Testing. I assume everyone else's would also.

21st Nov 2009, 17:05
I concur with Tony, Spec Testing is done on a different day to Assesment Day...

21st Nov 2009, 21:20
Hey guys, I was at flight screening on the 24th Oct-7th Nov and was successful. Does anyone know when the next Army offers come out? I believe it is around March?

The rumour also at FSP was that there will only be 1 Navy, 10 SSO Army slots and 5 Raaf positions on offer. Spewin'. Not sure about GSO but I believe there are plenty.


21st Nov 2009, 22:11
I would say those rumours would ultimately be false.. I already know of 4 RAAF offers been given out for ADFA next year. There would be at least around 30 RAAF spots for pilot from what I've seen.

I think I did my spec testing and assessment day on the same day due to me not having anywhere close by to do my spec testing. Therefore I had one big session and just did it all.

22nd Nov 2009, 01:57
From what I have heard, there will be 5 DEO offers for Raaf. The Army offers for SSO were due in Jan 10 but that may have changed.
30 offers for Raaf sounds very excessive James. There is also a rumour floating around that the recruitment drive for the start of next year has been cancelled due to the high numbers that have already been taken in, but that is yet to be confirmed.

Dilmah G
22nd Nov 2009, 02:08
...1 Navy, 10 SSO Army slots and 5 Raaf positions on offer.
I'm no expert, but wouldn't one applicant be a little illogical seeing as the Flight Training Process has a <50% washout rate?

22nd Nov 2009, 02:29
How do you find out these figures? Those odds are ridiculous! Kind of disconcerting. 4 years ago they were begging for applicants, I guess they got them.

22nd Nov 2009, 04:16
You can be cut at anytime up until when you get your wings. The failure rate is well over 50%. They say that there is only about a 7% chance of getting onto fast jets as well.
Just because you get an offer doesn't mean that it is plain sailing, the work has only just begun.

22nd Nov 2009, 04:45
Does it really seem excessive that (for ADFA entry anyway) they would take in around 30 pilots a year?

Bit worrying hearing that more than 50% of the pilots fail! Might have to start doing some more private training throughout ADFA!

22nd Nov 2009, 06:34
failure rates vary from course to course, 50% is high but possible on one course. 20-30% average would be moe likely and 10-20% make jets. Don't let the numbers scare you its def achievable.

22nd Nov 2009, 08:10
Absolutely, if you start worrying about the statistics you will never get there in the first place.

22nd Nov 2009, 09:04
Not worrying, just want to be proactive and learn all I can before commencing flying training. Should be able to get my GFPT before christmas :E

22nd Nov 2009, 12:12
Georgo and Joker, I'll second that!
Don't let anything deter you from working hard and aimming high. If you want it hard enough, you'll work hard enough for it, and regardless of intakes - you'll be putting forward a strong case for appointment.
Unless you are told by a qualified source, as in someone who works in Canberra at Defence, I would take what you hear on number of intakes as sheer rumour. Those numbers are secret business, repeat secret. Yes the intakes are low this year, and possibly will continue to be in the future, but that is about it. Unfortunately CJ0203, what you hear at FSP comes from trainee pilots in a place rife with rumour - see beginning of paragraph.
One thing everyone seems to have neglected is that the 2010 FSP schedule is up on the RAAF website. The number of spots is the same in 2010, but with an additional 18 spots for Observer applicants. The number of DE spots is down in 2010 (159) from 2009 (177), and the number of ADFA spots is up in 2010 (117) from 2009 (99). It may not sound like a lot, but that is a pretty big shift towards ADFA, at least in the recruiting stage. How these numbers carry through in terms of intakes, it's anybodies guess??????
Fail rate varies from course to course, but over the long-term, about 50% is a fair call. The learning curve is very steep, over a long period of time. Limited resources require this to be the case in order to maximise productivity.
Again, don't let numbers deter you - the good get through no matter what. Pilots course is definitely passable - many people have been through it and many will in the future. Many have failed ADF pilots course and gone onto be civilian pilots who have done well. Failing ADF pilots course does not mean you cannot be a pilot, it just says you do not meet those very high standards required by the military that are not so much in civilian aviation.

22nd Nov 2009, 23:10
Hence the name of this website ryano.. (pp RUMOUR network :p).

In the end if you are good enough and have perseverance you will get through.

23rd Nov 2009, 01:48
I know its thread drift but I just want to try and confirm where these 50% scrub rates are coming from. When I went thought we lost 1 person at BFTS and 5 people at 2FTS. And that was in line with the percentages I gave in my previous post. Those percentages were also, in general, not any better or worse than other courses I have seen go though. Perhaps its changed but 50% was more like the ARMY scrub rate at BFTS. RAAF and NAVY seemed to perform on average much better. Anyway might be wrong....

23rd Nov 2009, 04:31
My course started with 24 RAAF/RAN and 10 Army.

12 RAAF/RAN passed 2FTS and 4 Army passed Kiowa conversion.

But that was back in the day when course was actually hard and 2FTS was not a sausage factory ;)

To people who say if you work hard enough anything is possible.... Its just not true, there were some guys on my course who worked like mad men studying every spare moment. You either have it or you dont.

23rd Nov 2009, 07:07
I qoute Joker89;
"When I went thought we lost 1 person at BFTS and 5 people at 2FTS."

May I ask what happens to these individuals when they realise that they don't what it takes to become a pilot? Are they allowed to leave the force all together or do they find some role in the defence force and follow through with their IMPS?

... Knowing full well that all they ever wanted to become was a pilot and nothing else.

23rd Nov 2009, 09:18
Also interested to find out the answer to this question.. I would imagine they would be placed into another roll to finish the imps.

23rd Nov 2009, 10:00
ATC, ACO, OPSO, INTELO, ADMINO or LOGO for those who wish/have to stay. The others leave to pursue flying outside defence or return to some other industry.

23rd Nov 2009, 10:07
IMPS (more commonly called ROSO - Return Of Service Obligation) is only valid for direct entry if you finish pilots course, if you go ADFA you will still have IMPS/ROSO of at least a couple of years, which they will generally extract from you in some way.

My course start with 16 at 2FTS and 8 passed, but like slezy that was in the bad old days.

24th Nov 2009, 06:48
Well done on getting through the tests mate. Have a look at the FSP schedule for this year and next before you feel down on your luck. It depends on when you will get the call from PSA for two reasons. A) How good of an applicant you are and B) when PSA receives your file and what courses they have running. You could be the best DE applicant - they won't be putting you on FSP until a DE course is being run.

Without taking your application into account, if PSA only received your file in September, the DE FSP courses for October were probably already filled. The courses in November and December are all ADFA, they shut down over Christmas. The first FSP for DE is middle of Jan '10, they won't start filling that for a while yet. From there they run all the way through to the end of May - so you may not hear anything until March or so next year.

In terms of your other tests - the results will expire if you change job preferences or withdraw your application and then reapply again in the future. Best to check with recruiting though, but one hundred percent positive on it - if you have passed all the tests to date, you will not have to do them while your file is at PSA. Even after you've been to FSP and waiting in a selection pool, all your test results are still valid and will not expire.

It is a waiting game my friend, patience is a virtue.

24th Nov 2009, 11:24
Hi all,

I'm up for Pilot Specific Testing in December and I'm not sure exactly what to wear (suit?,neat casual). Obviously a suit would be worn to Assement day but i'm not quite sure what the case would be for separate testing.

I've got a reasonable idea of what i'm up for on the day, but please feel free to tell me I've missed or mistaken anything.

-Computer based math test (simple stuff from what I've heard)
-Paper based test (more complex aviation math probs., instrument comp.)
-Co-ordination test ("WOMBAT" I think)

Regarding flight screening courses (In the hope that I get into one). I've got around 15 hours flying gliders and will almost definately clock up even more in the next few weeks. Would this put me in the advanced group in Flight Screening (not having a clue as to how to use an engine might be a bit of a disadvantage :) )

Thankyou in advance for all replies

24th Nov 2009, 12:23
I could well be wrong here, but I'm under the impression that you are free of IMPS up to a certain point at BFTS (eg. if you failed within the first couple of weeks you probably wouldn't get the whole 11.5 years). Matters like that are of little interest anyway, none of us plan to fail right? For me personally, this is one contingency that I haven't given thought to because I wouldn't think twice about accepting a ROSO of twice the actual amount just for a chance at BFTS.

On a different note, I realise that one of the desired traits in a potential RAAF recruit is good time management. I've held jobs throughout school and Uni and I've never had a problem with managing my time, however I haven't had one for the past year as I'd saved enough to make it through (and do a little flying on the side!), the extra time on my hands ensuring that I maintain a nice grade average. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but in retrospect it seems like that may not have been the best choice (ie. suggest I have poor time management skills). Has anyone been in a similar situation, or have any idea how it is likely to affect my application?

24th Nov 2009, 21:47
AlexanderB -

People who have logged over 20 hours do the advanced course. Although I think this might need to be 20 hours of powered flight. Either way you should be right.

MudRatt -

When I sat my OSB (earlier this year) I wasn't employed. I had worked throughout high school and college and for the next year (Uni) I hadn't worked at all. It wasn't even mentioned in the interview though.

25th Nov 2009, 02:21
Wannabe- Advanced do more sorties in the CAP10 including aerobatics.


Captain Sand Dune
25th Nov 2009, 03:15
35 started on my course in 1985 and 17 finished in 1986. Aaaargh...when I were a lad.........etc etc.
The course is just as hard now as when it was then lads.
What is different is the "governance" B.S. associated with it. Back in the bad ol' days the CFI would scrub you just because he thought your eyes were too close together and he was in a bad mood. Today the justification and paperwork required, coupled with the lack of gumption displayed by some in charge fearing a redress means to actually suspend a poor student is a lot harder.

25th Nov 2009, 04:55
From memory, the difference between Beginner's and Advanced on FSP is:
Beginners: 7 sorties in CT4B and 3 in a CAP10.
Advanced: 5 sorties in CT4B and 5 in the CAP10, performing the same manoeuvres and aerobatics, and then with a few extra thrown in (barrel roll, slow roll and inverted flight to mention a few).
The Advanced course moves at a faster pace to fit the extra bits in, meaning there is less time in the aircraft per manoeuvre, plus you have to do them mostly in a more fiddly aircraft!

For all those aspiring leaders, an interesting read (or listen if you wish), written by the retired General Peter Cosgrove on the topic of leadership.
Boyer Lectures - 22November2009 - Lecture 3: Leading In Australia (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/boyerlectures/stories/2009/2725184.htm)
Could be handy to throw in when you sit your board ;-)

25th Nov 2009, 06:45
It wouldn't be so bad on the advanced course if you were good enough.. the cap10 (although small) is an awesome aircraft!

Pilot Adam
25th Nov 2009, 07:02
Hey, for those who have done the YOU session aptitude test before, will I be faced with questions regarding speed calc, time calc, distance calc and fuel consumption? If these are on the test how many variables do they throw into it?

25th Nov 2009, 07:03
I've had a shot at a model plane, pretty fun.

You really should try gliding, its great fun. I recently went to a XC gliding comp. in a two seater, a five hour flight with me taking four of those in command. Theres not much else like thermalling in lift the width of an oval with 10 other gliders within 200m of you. You really do get a sore neck.

"Followed by doing this whilst also doing maths equations."

What sort of equations?...

I'm pretty much right for the instrument interpretation tests and speed distance time and fuel consumption type things but what other kinds of questions would I be up for?, Trig?

I've had a look about on the net for the ADF aviator game but can't really find much. Any ideas?


"Remember the 5 P's, (Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance)"

25th Nov 2009, 08:07
Alex, the maths equations come in 2 parts, the first you will see will be a bunch of multiple choice answers, where the essence of a win is to do it quickly.
its been over a year since i took the test, but the one question i do remember from that is the one i had a brain-fart on.

2 airports, 500 miles/nm/ks/units whatever away,
Plane leaves airport a heading for B at 360 mph/kts/kmh/units
plane leaves airport b heading for a at 240 mph/kts/kmh/units

when and where will they meet.

Then, while youre doing the stick excersize, you will have one where you are given two random numbers that you have to do something with, Such as multiply them and then deduct the difference between them from the total, you have something like 5 seconds to select an answer per question, while balancing the little circle inside the big circle wiht a joystick.
hmm.. its easier then it sounds.

They sent me a CD for adf aviator when i put pilot in my application form, its about a trillion megabytes and has a beutiful 3d environment with 3 missions, 1 in a tiger, 1 in a hornet, and 1 in a seahawk, Itd be fun if we could get a "post your best scores" thing going on here, it is a fun game.
try a google search or maybe isohunt, i found this with google FAQ | Defence Jobs (http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/recruitmentCentre/supportAndDownloads/FAQs/Multimedia/#IamunabletodownloadtheADFAviatorfileisitpossibletohaveitpos tedtome) looks like you can get it posted to you. if worst comes to worse i can try and find the disk [head>desk] and upload it.

25th Nov 2009, 11:34
AlexanderB, the questions that are fired at you in that segment are basic maths that won't stray far from your times tables, however you will be required to 'process' these answers in certain ways and submit an aswer based on this.

In summary you will be required to perform a fine manual task with a flightstick, whilst you have to not only solve a question but also think on your feet. Its not as daunting as it sounds and if you make sure you brush up on your mental arithmetic, which is a given considering the nature of the job, and perhaps spend a bit of time on a flight sim you'll be as prepared as you can be.

25th Nov 2009, 12:04
"Remember the 5 P's, (Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance)"

I hope you can count beyond 5! It looks like there is 6 there.

25th Nov 2009, 21:49
proper prior preparation prevents piss-poor performance

26th Nov 2009, 03:02
Just don't quote the 7P's in mil writing. Yes, seen it done and it went very badly for the poor soul...

26th Nov 2009, 07:40
Thanks for the all the advice, I'll remember if I ever quote something to check it first. Just a bit embassasing.

I was just wondering, why does the DefenceJobs website display pilot as a priority job? I was under the impression that there's more than enough applicants in the waiting pools, is the demand for pilots really that high or are they just setting themselves up so as to pick the best of a larger group. Are they going for a higher quantity or quality? Any ideas on this one?

The next two weeks are going to be pretty hectic for me, I've got my testing right in the middle of my Semester 2 exams, this is gonna be fun.

26th Nov 2009, 08:17
The ADF is always looking for high quality applicants to fill pilot positions and so it will always be advertised as "priority". Even though supply and demand of applicants will vary over time, in order to ensure quality at all times, you always have to look for it. If you try an "off and on" approach, and try to match it with future needs, you end up worse off. You'll notice other positions in the ADF that require quality applicants will also be advertised as priority - virtually all the time, for the same reasons. Remember, there's always jobs going - sometimes more and sometimes less.

PS: The same applies to applicants as well - don't try and time your application!! Apply when you feel you're the best you can be and don't worry about the rest!!

7th Dec 2009, 08:17
Hey there I am new to all this and just wanted to know whether anyone is going to be on Flight Screening on the 16th of January??
I had a call from Tamworth today and they are sending out some information soon. Is there any extra stuff I can do to stand out at Tamworth? I plan on reading this entire thread, additional reading and also some flying lessons.
Thanks guys this forum is great!!
Just Pm me or post here if you also got an offer for the 16th of Jan.

7th Dec 2009, 21:57
Ah this thread is revived!
JayD well done on getting to FSP, especially the second one of the year. Hopefully your instructors had a good Christmas holiday - but I don't think taking a bag of candy-canes down would help you out. Do as you said; read this thread, go for a lesson or two (if you want) and prepare yourself for a fun and full-on two weeks. Any questions, post them here.
PS: How have some of the other guys who have recently posted on here gone with all their testing??

8th Dec 2009, 01:21
Assessment day tomorrow! I feel prepared for it and I've put some work in so I should be ok. Hopefully it will run smooth and I'll earn my place on one of the January FSP courses too :ok:

8th Dec 2009, 01:42
To give you an idea of the time frame some can expect:

1. Applied for Pilot position in the ADF early 2008
2. Did Flight Screening in March 2009
3. Starting BFTS in Feb 2010

If you're looking at skills to develop, start working on your patience :)


8th Dec 2009, 03:21
You'll notice other positions in the ADF that require quality applicants will also be advertised as priority

Yeah, Like Steward:}

Advertised as prority

from the website:
An exciting workplace and fantastic pay make this role in all aspects of food and beverage service a rewarding one. Training provided.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Good luck all.

I'll get my coat....

8th Dec 2009, 03:54
To give you an idea of the time frame some can expect:

1. Applied for Pilot position in the ADF early 2008
2. Did Flight Screening in March 2009
3. Starting BFTS in Feb 2010

If you're looking at skills to develop, start working on your patience http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif


Patience! Now there's a virtue I can surely understand. Started my application in November 2005, and due to some complications I am now finally at assessment day. Nothing wrong with a touch of optimism though :ok:

From what I can gather, there doesn't seem to be a 'typical' case as far as waiting goes.

8th Dec 2009, 04:34
Wow mate, that's probably one of the worser cases i've heard.

Well goodluck from now on.

8th Dec 2009, 07:03
Pilot Specific Testing today, success. I'm pretty sure I aced the instrument and spatial testing but I will admit that the second maths test is pretty tricky.

Looks like I'm up for the Interviews sometime early next year.

Thanks to all those who helped, great advice.

9th Dec 2009, 21:06
Finished assessment day yesterday. It was a huge day, got there at 0900 and left at 1700, most of which was spent sitting in the waiting room watching DFR videos! Anyway, in the end it was all worth it - I got my recommendation for pilot and OSB, so my file is off to PSA. They suggested that it would not be unlikely that I'd get a spot on one of the January courses, however at the end of the day they aren't PSA so I'll just have to keep my prep up and wait for the call.

9th Dec 2009, 21:26
Would like to congratulate Mudrat, I've followed your journey through this forum and a few other forums. Amazed with your determination amongst the let downs.

9th Dec 2009, 23:33
Well done Mudrat! I too, am still in the process of a long and arduous application! It's always nice to hear of people getting through. :)

10th Dec 2009, 05:23
hey. i've just received a phone call placing me in the flt program for the 9th of January 2010. Although I clearly state my preference as airforce, navy, army, due to the desire to fly planes instead of helicopters, the course on the 9th states that its specifically for GSO's for the army. Does any one know why this may be? Should i be concernced or overjoyed i got a place??

10th Dec 2009, 08:49
Sarah congrats!! It is possible that PSA just doesn't have enough people who want Army GSO as a first preference to run a full FSP and so have filled up any remaining places with other candidates. Yes you should be chuffed that you're going down there!! If you are that concerned about it go ahead and make a phone call to PSA to clarify, preferably someone you have spoken to already. The flying side will be the same for everyone. Not too sure about your board, but I bet it'll be similar to what others have been through.

To you other guys, congrats on your achievements!!

10th Dec 2009, 11:47
thanks heaps ryano, ill probably call them up tomorrow anyway but at least your reply enables me to sleep tonight. congrats to you other kids too!

10th Dec 2009, 12:19
Thanks guys, means a lot. Hopefully I'll see some of you 'kids' down there :ok:

10th Dec 2009, 22:09
haha meant purely affectionately i promise. you were right ryano, thank god, I spoke to them this morning. fingers crossed from here on in.

11th Dec 2009, 02:58
Thought that would be the case. Army GSO isn't usually high up on anybody's list - it wasn't on mine either until I was told to strongly consider it in my board. If they can't fill 9 spots for Army GSO FSP, maybe people should really re-consider it because they still have to put people into spots at RMC and then BFTS........ If you got onto a FSP earlyish in the year, you'd be well placed to make the July intake for RMC, and on Pilot's Course by the end of 2011. 18 months of hard yakka = locked in spot on BFTS, compared to trying to get one of the few SSO spots that almost EVERYONE is competing for.

11th Dec 2009, 06:04
Absolutely. I've got RAAF as my top preference (mainly because I am more interested in fixed wing aircraft) with Army GSO second and Navy Pilot third (no SSO preference nominated), so I hope they consider me for one of those slots. To get started that soon and to attend RMC would be great.

11th Dec 2009, 13:04
It doesn't matter what your preferences are pre-FSP and there's only certain times where your preferences will get you onto FSP (Army GSO and observers courses). Your preferences only count once you sit your OSB and they ask you to lock in your preferences (lock in isn't quite right, I changed from Army SSO to GSO afterwards), although you would have to have good reasons for changing post-OSB. Your competitiveness as a candidate is what will determine when you get to FSP.

Mhale, if (and hopefully when) you get to FSP, I would really urge you to reconsider Army SSO. Army SSO is the default for Army - in effect you will be competing with people who have Army as a preference, for one of a few places. Reason One: This pool is quite large, with a lot of high quality candidates and places are very limited at the moment which means the chances of getting a spot are low. Reason Two: Even if you got a spot on an Army SSO intake tomorrow, by the time you did your Helicopter Tactics Course and got your wings, you'd end up sitting in a holding squadron doing sweet FA waiting for an operational conversion course on ANY a/c.

To quickly sum up, if you're prepared to accept a spot as a GSO (and I assume so by having it as second preference) then why not just go for it, significantly increase your chances of getting a spot at BFTS and allow time for the backlog of people chasing conversions to clear so you get a smooth run through (hopefully). There are other pro's and con's of SSO's and GSO's, but by far these are the two biggest one's.

11th Dec 2009, 13:16
I'm going to assume Mhale that you mean "indebtedness" and it means to be "in debt" or "to owe". No, you will not be frowned upon for having a car, home, margin, credit card or any other sort of loan you can get these days. Debt is a powerful financial instrument and when used correctly can bring substantial rewards to the borrower. Having a loan/s and being able to reasonably meet those obligations though are two completely different things. Failing to meet your obligations and defaulting or having some other action taken against you can be seen as a serious personal flaw. Leverage yourself to the hill if you want, just don't go beyond your means.

I like planes
21st Dec 2009, 20:50
Hey this one is for people who have been through the FSP or have knowledge of it.

The letter suggests that the appropriate attire is shirt and tie almost everywhere in the airport facilities. Do applicants generally adhere to this?

Also, I'll be in the advanced course as I have a PPL. Other than a few spins however, aerobatics is a new concept to me. Hence I have booked a few lessons, is there anything I should be asking instructors to focus on that will be useful to me at Tamworth? I'm aware the focus is on your learning ability.

Finally, any tips for the OSB would be great, I have read through most of the posts on this site; however I'd be grateful for anyone's opinions about the day.


22nd Dec 2009, 03:55
Shirt and tie is the norm and yes everyone adheres to it. Virtually the only time you're not in it is if you play any sport, do your physical or in the accomodation blocks. Given the limited clothing you can take down with you, best bet is to take more shirts, ties and slacks than casual clothes.

When it comes to the flying, focus on accuracy and repeating what they show you, how they show you. It'll still move at a very fast pace for you. Go and get thrown around for a bit if you wish, but proper preparation before each flight is essential.

Your OSB is your chance to display your leadership potential and this is a critical part of FSP. Confidence and maturity are important. There's not really that much more to add about it if you've read this thread from start to end.

I like planes
22nd Dec 2009, 11:26
Thanks for your reply ryano, much appreciated.

Dilmah G
26th Dec 2009, 15:09
Doesn't sound like that backlog of pilots is going to clear anytime soon.

What's the reason behind there not being enough Conversion Courses to match the number of qualified pilots out of Flight Training? Is it lack of instructors, or is this just the way the army works... *sighs*

28th Dec 2009, 11:44
In all fairness to Army Aviation, there has been and will continue to be a significant amount of change. An aircraft type was phased out, the Blackhawk is being replaced by MRH (not up yet), ARH still isn't up yet, and Chinooks need bugger all people (and can choose other people instead of lid pilots). Introducing new aircraft is a significant challenge. These things don't just turn up and you start flying them that afternoon. All the infrastructure, the systems and processes, the training programs, the training of maintenance crews etc all takes time, let alone if the aircraft run late. Does is suck, yep, a thousand times over.

And in change there is opportunity. Once things get cracking, there will be quite a bit to do. In the meantime though........

Dilmah, mate it's fantastic to see your level of motivation. But mate, you've got a while left at school yet, plus if you choose ADFA, plus officer training, plus BFTS, plus further basic training depending on the service you go to. You've got a few years ahead of you before any of this will affect you and by then hopefully things are very much different to what they are now.

Dilmah G
28th Dec 2009, 15:49
Fair enough, I'm beginning to see the supposed logic in all this now. ;)

Yeah hope so. :) Seems you've misinterpreted my earlier post, I asked the question out of genuine curiosity (and made the earlier statement referring to one of your earlier posts, I believe you were one of the first on this thread to talk about this issue :P), rather than an "OMG. THIS IS THE END OF MY DESIRED CAREER *goes into cardiac arrest*" standpoint. I'm a fair bit more concerned than that about how I'm going to go during that 'while left of school' I have. :sad:

1st Jan 2010, 11:30
Hey all,

Two questions..

firstly, is anyone else here going to fsp on the 9th?

secondly, what clothes do we fly in/ are we given clothes to wear under the flight suit? i have been told i'm allowed to wear skirts and dresses as part of the dress code, but im concerned that under a flight suit this may be somewhat less than practical?

im aware the majority of you would not have first hand experience of the latter but any advice would be super,

also, 'intheweeds'' question is seconded, ryano.


1st Jan 2010, 13:02

There are change rooms so you can change out of your dressier clothes into the flight suits. Flying in that heat with that many layers would be very uncomfortable. They're not barbarians :)


1st Jan 2010, 20:55
You will be given a flying suit to fly in. Under it wear a t-shirt and underwear. At that time of year it will be toasty in the CT-4!

Do FSP people get fitted for helmets these days or do they wear a base ball cap like the good old days?

If its just a base ball cap make sure you take your sunnies. :cool:

2nd Jan 2010, 00:05
I've been told they all get helmets now for safety reasons.

Captain Sand Dune
2nd Jan 2010, 00:41
Helmets and parachute for the CT4, parachute and headset for the CAP10. Can't close the canopy on the CAP10 if you wear a helmet.
Therefore take a cap and sunnies

3rd Jan 2010, 00:46
Helmets for the CT-4. You get your name on it too!! :ok:

3rd Jan 2010, 21:21
good to hear FSP's now get helmuts, I still remember how uncomfortable those headsets were. Orange flying suits prob aren't going anywhere in a hurry.

I like planes
4th Jan 2010, 19:45
Hey can someone please describe the duties of army and navy pilots when they are not flying or flight planning?

Dilmah G
5th Jan 2010, 00:48
ILP, you might find ryano's post here useful for that kind of information.


7th Jan 2010, 06:30
I didn't get a helmet on my FSP 6 months ago? Must have changed recently.

Dilmah G
11th Jan 2010, 14:53
Just to resurrect this thread, yet again, :P

Does anyone here have any experience with the ADFA Education Award? I read on a Cadets forum that around the top 50% of ADFA Applicants in a given year receive it, and as such, I'll try and direct a bit of my energy towards it. I know "Education Award" makes one immediately think of grades, but since there's an OSB involved, do they assess "The whole package" when selecting awardees, and are there any things I can do to make myself more competitive?

13th Jan 2010, 05:45
Dilmah, on Education Award | Defence Jobs (http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/education/ADFA/educationawards.aspx) it states that The award is judged from results of the ADFA entry aptitude test, medical and a series of interviews., so it seems like DFR assess the whole package.

Dilmah G
13th Jan 2010, 15:08
Thanks. :)

Ah, crap, I should've seen that before.

14th Jan 2010, 02:35
G'Day all. Not sure if WOMBAT is the prefered test system fot the RAAF, but in case it is, here is a link to the student's manual:


14th Jan 2010, 05:25
Hey Guys,

If you get the minimum standards for Education to apply for the ADF to become a Pilot.... what other ways can to make yourself stand out and make yourself look better than others?

Dilmah G
14th Jan 2010, 07:37
Alright mate, I'm not a pilot, I'm not a uni-grad, I haven't even finished High School (yet!)

But first step, is to read this thread back to front,
And then do it again so you didn't miss anything. :p

Hopefully someone a little more versed in this than I am will come past and give you a few pointers, but there is a lot of good information about what you're looking for on this thread.

Off the top of my head, the common ones are: Play a team sport, to show those who interview you (and hopefully an OSB) that you can function with other people, try and be well read in the basics of the RAAF, (Where are our F/A-18s based? What are their Squadron Numbers? That kind of stuff, much better examples earlier in the thread), take on some Leadership Role within your free-time, or at work, if possible. Pilots are also Officers, which means you're expected to be a leader. It's stated (somewhere) on the DefenceJobs website, that prior flying can be used as an indication of good motivation, so it might help your cause to have a think about that one.

But I think a useful course of action for you, would be to read this thread in its entirety, it may well be one of the best sites on the subject you'll find. (Apologies if I've said something incorrect)

14th Jan 2010, 13:09
All good points. Read this thread and you'll be a step ahead.

14th Jan 2010, 23:33
Hello to all. I heard that foreigners could join the RAAF at time as pilot. I've read the conditions on the site of the RAAF but I would like to have your opinion:

I am French, I'm 24
French Air Force fighter pilot ( graduated in 2007)
For the moment I'm instructor in the french air force basic flying school
I've flown some training birds, and the Alphajet mainly..
Around 800 flight hours
Good level of English

In these conditions, is there any chance that the RAAF gives me a place as a fighter pilot? I think I would have to take a new training in the RAAF, but is that possible ? What are the conditions for foreigners ? Would like to fly the Hornet ..


14th Jan 2010, 23:54
Hey all,
Ive got my Pilot aptitude test on monday and just wondering what I should be wearing. Its not formal interviews or anything so I cant see why it would be a full suit, but I may very well be wrong.

Any ideas? What did you wear?

Thanks for your time.:ok:

14th Jan 2010, 23:59
Not that this helps you whatsoever:

France is World's Best Place to Live, U.S. Drops to #7, Says International Living -- BALTIMORE, Jan. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/france-is-worlds-best-place-to-live-us-drops-to-7-says-international-living-80695377.html)

Why do you want to go from #1 to #2? :)


15th Jan 2010, 00:14
Nothing to do with getting into RAAF, BUT....Herc-U, careful about how these stats are based:

We also consider the world from the point of view of the majority of our readers—Americans spending U.S. dollars.

.....Oz is THE BEST place in the world to live.......and I am not an American spending US $$. :ok:

15th Jan 2010, 00:37
Do a search for lateral recruitment, and the ADF website for overseas candidates. At last check the lateral recruitment program was not accepting applications.

15th Jan 2010, 01:12
I've worn a suit every step of the way. You give off a good impression if you look well presented and clean. It shows you take the selection process seriously by attempting to always put your best foot forward. Any advantage is a good advantage... :)

15th Jan 2010, 01:20
I was surprised that France was #1, nothing against it - I spend a lot of time there on holiday. I hadn't even looked at how the stats were created as anything like that can be pretty subjective. More tongue in cheek than anything else.;)

So out of interest, what's so wrong with the French AF that the RAAF would solve? or do you just enjoy surfing and BBQs Venin?:ok:

Arm out the window
15th Jan 2010, 01:23
At the very least, you'd have to be willing to put up with hearing the "Pierre the French Fighter Pilot" joke at least once a day for the duration of your stay in Australia.:)

15th Jan 2010, 02:28
Suit, suit, suit! I always looked in amazement at the other applicants who would rock up in jeans and tshirt. You wouldn't wear that to any other job interview, so why is this different?

I wore a suit every step of the way also.

15th Jan 2010, 03:26
Arm, That is Pierre who goes down in flames?? Never heard it. :bored:

Anyway Venin, bonjour from the real #1 country.
Am unsure of lateral recruiting from France - RAAF has in the past taken current aircrew from UK, US, Canada, NZ, Singapore and South Africa. Unsure of anywhere else.

These days you have to become an Oz citizen, but it depends on the current demand - does RAAF currently need pilots. I don't know.

15th Jan 2010, 03:44
Can I transfer from an overseas country into the ADF?

The opportunity to request for transfer to the ADF from another Defence Force does exist, but applicants must satisfy normal immigration requirements. (Enquirer's should use the Contact a Recruiter form on this website).

FAQ | Defence Jobs (http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/recruitmentCentre/supportAndDownloads/FAQs/OverseasApplicants/)

Arm out the window
15th Jan 2010, 04:30
Not sure why Venin's request has been merged with the flight screening thread, a different topic altogether. :confused:

15th Jan 2010, 05:18
In these conditions, is there any chance that the RAAF gives me a place as a fighter pilot? I think I would have to take a new training in the RAAF, but is that possible ? What are the conditions for foreigners ? Would like to fly the Hornet ..

ThanksWell, I was reading about a French pilot who transferred to the Army flying the MRH last year so there definitely a possibility. I suppose it might have made a difference that he was flying NH90 derivative over there too, but then again the Yanks, Brits and South Africans (I think we have a transfer agreement with these nations of some sort, however the MRH transfer seems to suggest its not a big hurdle otherwise) that have transferred to the RAAF over the years clearly all didn't fly the Hornet at home, so in my otherwise unqualified opinion - go for it :ok:

16th Jan 2010, 09:31
Nearly 40 years since I had reason to address an 04 and above, and yet it was like nothing had changed. After all as a SGT I was expected to call those at Squadron Leader rank and above as Sir. Did not stop me have a good relationship with some and sound friendships with others. When after being out for 30 years I ran into the same people again, it seemed very natural and proper to call them Sir. What was very unusual to me, as a civilian making presentations to a group of senior officers, the situation was reversed and I did not find it strange.

I think in regard to your applications should be important, is that your actions show that you both understand the traditions of address and the requirements when addressing someone senior to one self. After all you are very low in the pecking order. As a QFI indicated to me, having just severly bawling out a would be co pilot, "they have to learn humility and then I can teach them, as long as they think at 250 hours they know it all, they are useless".

I am sure that my chances of being selected was increased on my interview board, when the correct process of addressing the people who were senior to me was used. I would suggest the same to you.

As a former military man, you should know the proceedure, and I for one was on the panel, I work mark you down for your lack of respect if you did not address the board correctly..

After all you are asking to be selected, and you be able to show that you could intergrate back into the service. If you were not an ex military man, it clearly shows that have taken the trouble to find out the correct proceedures.

Sometimes in being gentle and respectfull to others, you show a side of your character that can otherwise be missed.

Nothing nicer than to be on Parade, and to here some junior officer calling out his flights or squadrons status.


See it works all ways.

Wish you all the best, do not forget you have some very good competition.



16th Jan 2010, 11:10

As someone who is ex-military it should be second nature to call Senior Officers Sir? How else are you going to Address them?

If you are serious about Joining the club you are going to have to learn very quickly that the recruiting process is ALL about playing the game!

18th Jan 2010, 12:48

Sorry about hijacking this thread but it seems the most know how in DFR is in this thread. I have applied to be a Navy Pilot and have progressed past Pilot Specific Testing. I have recently been diagnosed with arnold chari malformation type 1, informed DFR and provided a specialist report (neurosurgeon). Today I was told over the phone that I am class 4 for Aircrew and will receive this decision in writing. This is contradictory to my Neurosurgeon's professional opinion that the mild case of arnold chari would not affect any aircrew related job. When I talked to DFR in Parramatta when I was just diagnosed, no doctor knew of Arnold Chari Malformation and they looked it up in there books for hours. I am worried that DFR has just deemed it too complicated and decided to just call it class 4 out of laziness. The fact is that Civil Aviation Safety Authority deems Arnold Chari Malformation as a acceptable condition to fly with and you Can be Class 1 Medically Fit in Civil Aviation, I can not understand why DFR gets to ignore all the facts from professionals and accepted standards. Arnold Chari Affects roughly %5-15 of the population and of those people only %20 are ever diagnosed. It was only by chance that I was diagnosed and due to the fact I told DFR about it, I have been disadvantaged. They said I would receive information on how to appeal in the mail. If anyone has gone through the appeal process and could provide me with some tips on what to include in my plea, it would be appreciated.



Dilmah G
18th Jan 2010, 14:11
Phyk: Sorry, I don't have any experience at all with anything here, but if you have a skim-read through the thread, there are several posters who have gone through the appeal process, one of them being the thread's originator (from recollection). Perhaps if you Personal Message them, they may be of help? :)

19th Jan 2010, 06:28
Hi Phyk,

sounds like bad news. Unfortunately I do not think the quacks at the DFR are lazy and just because they have not come across your condition before does not mean that they are tossing it into the too hard basket. There are a number of ways to look at this and all end up being that the ADF do not have to take a chance on you. It basically boils down to why spend numerous dollars (read a large amount here) with someone that has a condition that may affect (disregard CASA they allow people with heart conditions etc to fly) them in the air or render them unfit in the future. How does your condition respond to high G and repeated high G manoeuvres? It is very similar to the entry standards, for eye sight, whereby you need to meet the initial criteria on entry but once in, one day later, be as blind as a bat.

Your brain spec lad may say it is all fine but what is his aero background?

By all means go through the appeal process but don't be surprised that even with the backing of your specialist the ADF still says no.

19th Jan 2010, 07:55
Frankly they don't - my RAAF course mates from BFTS got their wings in Nov 08, those lads and the subsequent courses are all looking at a two year ground posting before they see a coversion. This is a common theme accros all three services.

I think they are still recruiting, however the ADF are VERY flush for pilots.

Then why has "pilot' only recently become a priority job as listed on defencejobs.gov.au? Just seems curious to me...

19th Jan 2010, 10:38
Physically my condition would not react with any amount of g's or pressure. I received a call from a high up doctor today who told me I was class 4 due to the Condition, yet they can't tell me for what reasons due to it being Classified.. My Specialist does not have a aeronautical background but it is accepted that a mild case of my condition will not affect me in anyway compared to someone without the condition. Pretty much I was told that "off the record" clearance to be aircrew would be unlikely which is a unfortunate. I will appeal and state that I don't have symptoms, done flying time, can work on a Fire-front (RFS) without any symptoms etc. Thats what the doctor said, so if anyone else has this issue ensure that your appeal includes facts including how bad symptoms are, what medication is taken (over the counter rarely is acceptable) and how often it affects you especially during arduous or prolonged physical effort. If anyone else has tips it would be great and thanks for the replies so far.


19th Jan 2010, 10:46
From wings at the moment, you will wait at least 12-18 months currently for a conversion unless you go Fast Jet, in which case you will start the following Monday after grad. Unfortunatley there is no more IFS so it is a bit of a crappy deal if you get stuck flying Maritime or Transport.

24th Jan 2010, 07:18
I believe BFTS maybe a bit lite on due DEO nunbers down with ADFA numbers up

25th Jan 2010, 12:28
A little off topic...

Does anyone know what kind of laptop (brand, specifications etc) an Education Award recipient receives?

31st Jan 2010, 03:30
A little off topic...

Does anyone know what kind of laptop (brand, specifications etc) an Education Award recipient receives?

Anyone know?

Dilmah G
31st Jan 2010, 03:32
Have you tried calling DFR? And anyway, if it's really the laptop you're after, there are plenty of cheap ones out these days you can buy for $1000>.

31st Jan 2010, 08:02
You can get decent laptops from about $300 up.

1st Feb 2010, 06:34
Just interested in the laptop? No interest in the ADF?

Captain Sand Dune
1st Feb 2010, 08:40
Of course he is...........:hmm:

1st Feb 2010, 08:58
I think someone might be trying to sus out his future gaming options ;)

I wouldn't be too worried about the laptop, its a trifling matter in the grand scheme of things when you think about the effort you'll expend and the money that will be spent on you over the course of your career (or even the selection process, for that matter!). If what I've heard is true, its not a basic notebook but it isn't a worked gaming machine either (obviously). Your guess is as good as mine as to what the stats are.

Dilmah G
1st Feb 2010, 09:02
And besides, if you want a computer for gaming, go out and buy one. Hell, if you want a computer, go out and buy one. I'd be much happier knowing that I was decently competitive if I got the ADFA Award, rather than worrying at all about what it could entitle an award recipient to.

1st Feb 2010, 12:49
Hi guys

I applied back in Feb 2009 for ADF pilot and quite frankly I'm fed-up with the whole application process. I was very surprised with the smoothness of it all to begin with up until flight screening, but now it all seems to be just a joke. Medicals being lost, dental records not sent through to avmed for processing etc. I had my dental check-up 8 weeks before I had a call from DFR to say the results had been sent to Canberra for clearance. It's all a bit of a joke.

I understand that they want to get the right people for the job and everything, but considering the amount of money the taxpayer has spent on me already and my medicals all check out... seriously, there's nothing stopping me just walking away and gaining employment elsewhere. Shouldn't the taxpayer be extremely worried by this? I seem to be always reading of recruiting targets not being met year after year. The whole process has to be changed. I applied wanting to join then (and still do) but not in 5 years' time.

At least if they could just tell me; "Listen, maybe instead of pilot you'd be more suited to obs, atc, aco etc". But I've had no such recommendation. They seem to want me to wait for a pilot offer, but for how long? Luckily I do have a job, not one I enjoy immensely, but if you were seeking to gain employment in the ADF straight after school, or seeking employment, do they expect you to get a "filler" job at Maccas or Big W? Something needs to change, because I'm so frustrated right now.

Just keep in mind, for anyone applying you have to be very patient and don't even think about quitting your current job. End rant.

Hopefully I get a call mid-Feb, like PSA have suggested!

2nd Feb 2010, 04:47
Reply to Johnny_Chase
' End rant'

Yea, life's abit like that - Suck it up:)

If it makes you feel any better, I started my application in September '07.
I haven't 'failed' anything, starting to lose motivation with my application... I'm halfway through my engineering degree thinking it'd just be a filler until I get in, hopefully my persistance pays off and I'll find myself in the skys down the track.

2nd Feb 2010, 05:47
JC/KB where are you at. Is it still recruiting that is holding you up? I had a friend who applied and found out that by the time he jumped through all the hoops and recruiting forgot/remembered him that when his dossier finally arrived at PSA it was the wrong time. That is they had gone into the ADFA cycle and therefore it was at least three months before DEO was back up.

If you are unhappy with recruiting talk to someone about it like the manager.

2nd Feb 2010, 07:21
Nah, I'm through flight screening and I'm class 1 medically fit...

My frustration stems from the fact that I could be at OTS now or even 6 months ago if I had've been told that "you're not good enough for pilot" or "try something else". I would still love to work in aviation. Working as an Observer in a Seahawk would be a truly exhilerating experience and it can't be as challenging to get into as pilot. Same goes for ACO. ATCO would be more boring, but still working in aviation and good prospects post-career. I've been basically told nothing along the way. Very frustrating from my prospective employer... Is this what's to be expected from the next ten years?

2nd Feb 2010, 09:02

So why not put an application in for Observer ?

2nd Feb 2010, 09:13
Why? Because I would obviously prefer to be in the right-hand seat of the said Seahawk. And obviously any more time taken to apply for a new job role may be the amount of time it takes to get the offer for pilot anyway.

The point is, the Government will waste many dollars on the recruiting process if I just walk away out of sheer frustration... It's a totally inefficient process which has mainly been outsourced to a private contractor in order to "save money". None of these concerns or possibilities are discussed at JOES day. No-one says; "It could take one or two years to join, are you okay with that?" It just didn't happen.

2nd Feb 2010, 11:45

Mate, recruiting are ****, you are just going to have to suck that one up! If you want it bad enough, you will wait! Walking away is not going to achieve anything, you will still not be in and you will still be in a crappy job you don't like. You will however be leaving a spot for somebody who really wants it!

I am assuming by talking about the Seahawk that you are applying for Navy, well get used to waiting as it will be quite a few years before you become operational even after you get wings! I have a few mates off my pilots course that have finished the squirrel (after 2FTS) and have been told up to 2years for Op conversion. Every service is hurting for conversion spaces post wings, so waiting WILL be part of the game. Again if you really want it, then its no big deal!

If you decide it is worth the wait, perhaps you could try PSA to find out how you sit in the pool? Remember they only take from the top, possibly why you are waiting? (Not trying to be rude there mate, you just never know who is ahead of you?)

As for the Observer, ATC, ACO thing, if you want Pilot, go for it! Dont accept becoming a Blunt due to frustration, only take it as a second if things dont work out!

2nd Feb 2010, 20:24
As for the Observer, ATC, ACO thing, if you want Pilot, go for it! Dont accept becoming a Blunt due to frustration, only take it as a second if things dont work out!


For our overseas friends, ACO is Air Combat Officer as Navigators (in my day) are now classified. Sure, the young guy should shoot for pilot's course, but being a Nav - I can assure you - ain't "Blunt". Would happily show you my logbook. :ok:


3rd Feb 2010, 05:00
Sure, the young guy should shoot for pilot's course, but being a Nav - I can assure you - ain't "Blunt". Would happily show you my logbook.

Ha Ha

The four most useless things in Aviation,

1. Runway behind you

2. Height above you

3. Fuel in the bowser

4. Hours in a Navigator's Log Book

5th Feb 2010, 04:17
"Working as an Observer in a Seahawk would be a truly exhilerating experience and it can't be as challenging to get into as pilot. Same goes for ACO."


take Keenas' advice. Yes it is frustrating but if you ain't competitve you ain't competitive. I believe yor stated you got offered GSO or SSO what happened there?

5th Feb 2010, 06:09
I'm sure there are issues with the recruitment process, but there's also one hell of a backlog for Navy aircrews at the moment; many are flying a desk waiting for a training slot, and few are getting sufficient hours. Hence the rush to get a new helo to replace Seasprite and eventually Seahawk!

5th Feb 2010, 06:50
What kind of interview questions do recruiting ask?

And I've got my assessment day booked in for next week and I'm confused as to why the interview time is set for 7:40am?

5th Feb 2010, 07:14
What kind of interview questions do recruiting ask?

And I've got my assessment day booked in for next week and I'm confused as to why the interview time is set for 7:40am?

My interview "started" at 0830. What this actually means is I was given a questionnaire at 0830 to fill out, and left at 1700 having had two half hour interviews and an hour med spaced throughout the day (in retrospect, assessment day was like a one day model of the entire selection process. Long waits to scale :}).

Questions are asked by a Psyche and a current member of the defence. In my case it was a Navy officer, though RAAF is what I have applied for (other two in second and third preference). The interviews are a chance to show the defence you're pilot material: psyche is probing your character whereas DFR making sure you have the appropriate desire to both serve as an officer and as a pilot. Take from that what you will, if you read through this thread you'll have a good idea.

5th Feb 2010, 08:40
What kind of interview questions do recruiting ask?

At the moment assessment days aren't that bad. They revamped the recruiting process in 07/08 to make it faster and less painful on the individuals. I like many remember the good old days where you'd spend an entire day at DFR and only have about 2-3hrs worth of appointments.

The medical component is rather simple, just making sure you're physically up to the challenges of training. The psych just wants to see if you're not crazy... However do not be afraid if they try to push some buttons. They don't want to crack you but they want to understand if there are any external forces that will create problems for you during training and the rest of your career. Answer honestly with a level of maturity expected of your age group, if not more so.

The actual Defence Interview varies from person to person. You'll meet with a military member usually Warrent Officer or Captain in rank (service equivilants). They will quizz you on the career you are about to undertake. Know relevant things like training locations, length of courses, (i.e. Flight training begins at OTS or ADFA, (time dependant on which stream you do), BFTS 6 Months and then 9 Months 2FTS), and possible future postings after completion of training (F/A-18 at 3, 75, 77sqns located in Tindall or Williamtown).

Also learn up on tri service things like the current personal weapon operated by the ADF, Fitness standards etc etc. They will ultimately show that you are keen and know what you are getting yourself into. Which is what they want to see most of all.

Hope this helps, Recommended sites are obviously recruiting website, and the various services aswell. Its good background knowledge to have and will put you in good stead.

5th Feb 2010, 09:31
I wouldn't be too sure about that mate; I hade mine December 09 and as I said, started 8:30 and finished at 5! I doubt that there was a total of three hours assessment to the day, but perhaps it depends on location as to whether you have to sit the marathon. Best advice, bring a decent book if you don't want to watch DFR recruitment vids and Gallipoli all day :ok:

5th Feb 2010, 10:39
My Assesment Day is also at 7.40am.

Good fun :}

5th Feb 2010, 11:05
I wouldn't be too sure about that mate; I hade mine December 09 and as I said, started 8:30 and finished at 5!

Ouch. I guess it really depends on location. Worked at DFR for a few months and they recorded times that people were in the building in order to determine the averages. Was pretty good at our location but I suppose it all depends on which recruitment centre you're at.

Although the Dr's and psych usually don't get too busy there are only x amount of defence interviewers in the building and they can get back logged pretty easily. Alot of reporting goes into the interviews and they have to prepare for each candidate on a case by case basis. Ends up taking alot of time but I guess you don't really need to know the inner workings of recruiting. Just know that although its slow... It does work.

6th Feb 2010, 09:43

Hang in there - work out what you want - and determine the way you can best phrase it to defence recruiting to make it happen for both of you. Don't forget, unless you ace flight screening they're not going to come after you - its a big pool. Be proactive.

If your flight screening result wasnt good enough - move on. If its another factor, you just need to determine if you'll be a chance next round.

As per the previous advice, dont go blunt for frustration. They're good jobs, but you can talk to the f111 navs rerolling to pilot if you like, to see a real perspective.

To those at recruiting logging 12 hours for 3 hours of interviews,

Not the biggest sacrifice, and perhaps a glace at what its going to be like, every time you roll down to medical/pay section/the mess/dental for the next 15 years of your career!

6th Feb 2010, 16:51
I got an offer for GSO from the Wing Commander after flight screening, but knocked it back as I had my heart set on Navy. In retrospect, I understand this was a HUGE mistake and since I have sent a letter to PSA in order to let them know of my change of heart. I hope it's not too late. I'd give my left nut to be at RMC now.

I just didn't realise while at flight screening that an offer for any of the three services is a huge privelige. So I know I'm competitive in that regard.... I spoke to a Group Captain (ex Nav) a few weeks ago and he told me that if I'd applied five years ago there'd be no problem and I'd be fast-tracked onto BFTS for any of the three services... Bloody GFC...

6th Feb 2010, 19:06

yes thats the truth. Timing is everything. Given the economic down turn, lack of resignations and blocked training pipeline etc any offer for a service is like a win in lotto.

7th Feb 2010, 00:24

Theres always the opportunity for a service transfer later on down the track. They can be painfully long at times but worth it if it gets you where you want to be. Once you get your foot in the door you'll be better placed to get what you want down the track. That goes for not just you, but everyone going for pilot.

8th Feb 2010, 19:45

Yes there may be some truth to what you have said but I believe your first day in the door is for YOU testing to tell you what you can or cannot do. I suppose the brain washing may then occur.

As for pilot being a priority job the ADF may well be being proactive (hard to believe). Eventually the commercial side will crank up again and the experience drain will start. Also the people walking into recruiting for an aviation career are low, very low. Hence pilot as a priority.

9th Feb 2010, 05:28
Anyone have a list of questions for assessment day?

9th Feb 2010, 07:46
Defence is still recruiting - however from a pilot's perspective - I really wish they would pause to let the training system catch up...

DFR don't determine the numbers. Thats purely up to PSA and the respective personnel agencies. DFR's only role in the whole scheme is to screen candidates and select the few that are good enough to attend Flight Screening. From there the respective services advise PSA how many candidates they are willing to take and only select the top of the pile according to their wishes.

The number of pilot trainees coming through is always fluctuating according to demand from the respective services personnel agencies. Thats why there are few Navy pilots in the training pipeline... They just don't need them at the moment.

9th Feb 2010, 23:50
Hi all,

Just in seek of some opinions :)

I'll be going on the FSProgram soon and i've been thinking about a few hours of flying - Just so I can get the initial shock of sitting in a cock-pit out of my system (even though i'll still get a shock once at tamworth), just to feel what it's like to fly a small plane and seeing the instruments work in front of my eyes.

The plane i'll be flying for 'a few' hours is a Tomahawk, after a bit of google, I think it's the piper Tomahawk, and i'll probably get around 5hours @ $280/hr (all is included).

Any opinions? Speak now or forever hold your peace :)

Is there any other forum threads, websites and the likes which will have some information on the FPS?

10th Feb 2010, 04:14
I'm in the same boat, Kitchen Bench. Apparently my FSP is coming up soon; DFR case manager says likely end of this month or the early March slots, but by the same token they aren't PSA and according to my PSA letter I wont be notified until two weeks before the date so I've just got to sit tight. Anyway, I'm gliding instead because its cheaper (and the gliders are aerobatics capable!) but I think either would be good for confidence and familiarisation. Apart from that, rate of learning is a big part of what is assessed so as far as I'm concerned, its not worth getting a ton of hours in just for FSP as you'll have to demonstrate that learning curve regardless. I'd have a scout about on the AAFC forums but apart from that, this thread should suffice. I might see you down there :ok:

10th Feb 2010, 05:03
Kitchen Bench:

As mudrat_02 stated, they aren't looking for ability to fly, just a rate of learning. Essentially your ability to develop your skills and learn from your mistakes. An example of which would be for the instructor to demonstrate a wingover to you, teach you to do it and then let you have a go. You end up failing abysmally at it by yourself so he reteaches it to you and your next shot is a better. If they see that then they are usually happy.

Having said that though, It certainly doesn't hurt having a few lessons to get rid of the initial shock of being in a cockpit the first time. Also the initial hand/foot/eye co-ordination will also help along with a BASIC level of knowledge on how an aircraft performs (Power + Attitude = Performance etc etc..).

5 Hours would seem reasonable but I would caution you to not listen to much to the "civilian" way of doing things. The military is very specific in its way of flying and any habits you may pick up can end up being very hard to get rid of later on down the track. Having said that though, bad habits are usually found in people who have a large amount of hours already under their belt and I wouldn't imagine 5 hours would be sufficient to develop any habits at all really.

Hope this helps and all the best!

10th Feb 2010, 10:25

like you I have a friend of a friend who has a friend working at recruiting and the low down is that the pilot wanna bee's are no longer blocking up the door way. Check with your mate. I think you will find "thems the facts"

13th Feb 2010, 13:37
Quite right.

If you needed another reason, fast jet seems to be the only fast movers out of wings.

13th Feb 2010, 21:32

I’ll see you two points and raise you two points, without the bold or underlining

1. A reply to a post is generally to do with your last post, hence the reply in regards to DFR.

2. I don’t recall saying there was a bottleneck at recruiting nor disagreeing or stating that the training pipeline was flowing at full production with the squadrons sucking them up. What I was saying was that there is less of an interest for pilot in the ADF and as my mate stated, numbers are down. Therefore a reason as to why pilot is still a priority. Which is (as I was told some years ago when the wheel was in a similar position with ANSETT going tits up) the training pipeline cannot be closed down. The flow on effect such as the impact on QFI’s at the squadrons to training QFI’s and more importantly 5 /8/10 years down track when there are not the experienced pilots in position because we stopped training is irreparable.

Your opinion of why pilot is a priority job is your opinion and if you think DFR are sucking people in so be it. DFR have quota’s to fill and will persuade people into other options if they can. If a person can be swayed because they walked in the door wanting to be a pilot and were talked into something else I would question their motivation. “The people who are unsuccessful will be prodded to jobs that aren't meeting targets if they are still keen to join the ADF.” Not sure on your point here. A person who is keen to be a pilot and have a career in the ADF but is unsuccessful for pilot and therefore joins up as something else ???? What’s the issue? They will be told all options such as you have the credentials come back and try again; you don’t have the credentials, go away and get them, or join up as whatever and hope for a role change or simply you can have this ADF career.

Again myyyy maaate has told me there are a significant number of people who walk into a RC do the testing and told your testing indicates you are ok for pilot, when they were looking at something else. Given that is a fact:ok: it would suggest that not every Tom, Dick and Mary walk into recruiting wants to be a knucklehead.

14th Feb 2010, 02:21

Enough of the pissing contest already, who really cares! Your argument with each other is doing nothing to add to this thread, and i am sure i am not the only person sick of reading about it. This is supposed to be about helping people who are keen to join as pilot, not about swinging your dick around.

14th Feb 2010, 03:52

Thank you for your comments on this open forum where you have the freedom to read or not to read.

Uncertain as to "This is supposed to be about helping people who are keen to join as pilot" comment as I don't see the relevance in how it helps people with complaints, justifiable as they may be, regarding blocked training pipeline and woeful RC's.

Mate this is a forum where you can post facts or opinions and in doing so expect rebutalls and disagreements. It's only when it gets personally nasty that it becomes unwelcome.

As far as adding to the thread; questioning why pilots are still a priority and how the RC's handle applicants and generating a discourse whether in agreement or not I think is part of the thread. We are talking about baking a cake here, right?:rolleyes:

17th Feb 2010, 04:08
Ahhh scratch what I said Tony, circumstances have changed :ugh:

17th Feb 2010, 04:12
Well guys, I had a letter sent to me about two weeks ago to confirm that my dossier had only just reached PSA and that they would put it in competition for a slot. I was ready for the big wait, but today got the call to say that I have been selected for a FSP course commencing in a few weeks :ok:

Needless to say I'm over the moon, time to get into even more prep (than usual) ;)

17th Feb 2010, 05:48
That's awesome MudRat, when did you complete your assessment day? Must have done well, quick slot. Very jealous.

17th Feb 2010, 06:12
I did assessment day in December, but DFR didn't send my file to Tamworth until a few weeks ago because they apparently didn't have a photo of me for the dossier. Worked out for the best in the end though.

Dilmah G
17th Feb 2010, 07:47
Congrats mate! :)

17th Feb 2010, 10:34
FSP is flight screening right? What kind of prep do you need to do for that?

Captain Sand Dune
17th Feb 2010, 23:49
Learn to:
Show respect for others.
Be punctual.

18th Feb 2010, 01:43
Yes there are some who do not understand.

1. To be a pilot in most Air Forces, you have to show the qualities that enable officers to function in what is considered to be the officer way. Many excellent pilots have gone to the wall, because they either did not understand that requirement, or where not prepared to hone their skills, until the required standards where obtained.

2. Then there are those who think that because they the skills to be a good pilot, that they are entitled for entry as such. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Air Force has learnt over many years what are the talents they are looking for, and will quickly walk away from those who cannot or will not cut the mustard.

3. The system is focused on the aspects they are looking for, you may be able to paint a picture that is preety, but the system will catch you if what you are seeking is not what the Air Force require.

4. Certainly having a keen mind and being right on the ball, but at the end of the day there are plenty of hot shot pilots, but very few who show real leadership and team work talents.

5. You have to be carefull to blend your desires to achieve, with the Air Force ways, or you will not make it.

6. You have no right to be an Air Force pilot, no one is garanteed entry, and you really need to understand what the real requirements are. In many cases it will mean learning all over again

In conclusion I well remember a co pilot student who really stuffed up. 250 hours and he knew it all. Bad run in with QFI who told him he would not fly with him anymore. Felt a bit sorry and fronted the QFI and I said he really wants to fly. His response was "if he really wants to fly, he can flap his arms and jump out the window." After some more discusion he said, its all about humilty, if he comes to understand that I became a QFI after lots of effort, and he needs to learn that he really knows nothing, and needs to impress me with how much he wants to learn, and not how much he knows.

Had a long talk with the trainee and lessons started again. 25 years later ran into him at a re union, and he was then a Group Captain, so a change of attitude stopped the Air Force loosing firstly someone who became a good office and not a bad pilot to boot.

By all means demonstate your keeness, but do not come the bounch as that is what will happen to you.

Best of Luck


19th Feb 2010, 06:50
Hi all,

Just a couple of questions in regards to the attire when at FSP.

Is there an recommended/prefered clothing to wear under our flying suits?
I understand that short sleeve business style shirts are acceptable, but would polos be acceptable aswell (eg. ralph lauren polo)?
Outside office hours, i'm expecting that we're not required to wear business attire (correct me if i'm wrong) - if that's the case, should respectable T-shirts and short pants be sufficient?Thanks in advance.

[edit] ...and is there any other useful items which should be bought to FSP that may not be obvious (to applicants)?

21st Feb 2010, 23:05
Can anyone tell me what to expect in regards to the speech that you have to present at OSB at the end of FSP? Is DFR supposed to give you the topic, are you given the topic at FSP that you are expected to have completed by OSB, or is it more of an impromptu sort of thing? Does anyone know what the topic is?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

22nd Feb 2010, 05:22
What I think you should involve in your speech are.

Why you want it.
Why you deserve it.
What can you do for the ADF/RAAF
Why should we spend more than 1 million dollars on you.

etc etc

22nd Feb 2010, 05:29
Thanks for the reply, Blake-H. Just to make sure, are you saying from experience, that you choose what to present or that you are required to prepare a speech on why you should be chosen for pilot training .ect?

Anyway, that sounds like a pretty typical profile for the ADF. I thought I'd prepare a few speeches covering these points as a contingency anyway, so I'll do that.

22nd Feb 2010, 06:04
No not technically from experience.

But I have read many articles which basically involve what I have said.
If you can think off more stuff to say thats GREAT! But try to make it short.

Don't over do it with a hour long speach, they'll think your just some loser lols.
Make it short with "Smart" words

One thing don't say "I Think" say "I Know" give them a reason to pick you over hundreds or thousands of applicants

Dilmah G
22nd Feb 2010, 07:32
Sorry for a bit of a thread derail, but this is the last week I have to change subjects, I think...

I've asked about school subjects and the way the RAAF/DFR will look at you before, but in regards to science, will it hurt you if you don't do either physics or chem during Years 11/12? The reason I'm asking is because of the two tests I got back from school today, the Econs Test was 88%, and the Physics test about half that. To be honest, I don't give a sh*t about how water boils, that Kelvin is something like -273 degrees C, or anything along that train of thought (not exactly, but you get the idea)

I took physics in the first place because I was told some of the content related closely to Aviation, but seeing as I'm already doing an Aviation Subject, I'll probably learn most of what I would've gleaned during Physics in that. And besides, I've been able to tell someone how a plane flies since I was about six years old. :p

22nd Feb 2010, 08:02
Dilmah G,

Unless it has changed, Physics and one other science subject are required.

It does not matter if you know how water boils, it is an indication that you can study and apply your self to subjects that have similar thought processes.

DFR will not really care if you can tell them how an aircraft flies. All they will want are the minimum subject requirements before they will even let you in the door.

22nd Feb 2010, 08:07
Dilmah G

As I've said before, do the subjects you like and will do well in. I don't know when you last checked the education requirements but no year 11 or 12 science subjects are required for entry, even when they were you only needed a result of 53% (for NSW). That goes for maths and english too. Anyway, all you need is a grade C in year 10 science and have to do advanced maths or whatever it's called. Just try and do well in the subjects you do and make sure you do the required maths.

ADF pilot applicants must have completed Year 12 with passes in English, Mathematics (Tertairy Entrance Level) and two other academic subjects.

ADF Pilot Selection Agency: Royal Australian Air Force (http://www.airforce.gov.au/psa/education.aspx)

Dilmah G
22nd Feb 2010, 08:16
Thanks for the replies,

I do happen to like physics, I just end up being rather poor at it when it comes to tests and the like (I probably lost half the marks on my test because of my poor handwriting, something I'll need to work on.)

Just checked on DefenceJobs, C Grade in Year 10 science is required for pilot, however the mandatory science pass for Year 11 is something I don't recall seeing for ACO before.

And my maths course is to their standard, at least. I just don't want to be disadvantaged by having a C on my report card, especially since I was planning to apply for ADFA.

22nd Feb 2010, 10:04
Hi all,
Just curious as to what the typical age is for most pilots going through FSP - just as a guide. I am 30 years old and have just applied for my YOU session and extremely keen to learn as much as possible about the process to better my chances.

Is it difficult to get someone to show you around a RAAF base? I live near RAAF Amberley and want nothing more than to fly FJ's.

I appreciate any help/guidance.


Dilmah G
22nd Feb 2010, 10:22
I'm in Year 11 actually, :p. Subjects like space and aeronautics are the things that interest me in physics, last year we covered light and I found that rather interesting, although I got something like a 69% overall mark for the course, and ended up getting a B.

Truth be told, I find physics interesting, but I just haven't found a good way of studying for it. And seeing my test pages marked with red crosses/zeroes and being berated for my poor handwriting (which probably resulted in me getting no marks for working) every second page got me down a little. ;) I've got another test tomorrow, but I'll just try my hardest for a B.

Dilmah G
22nd Feb 2010, 10:36
Ah yeah, I was thinking about the ADFA Education Award, which is why Year 11 results did tend to concern me. As long as I work out some way to avoid getting a C or a D for Physics, I'll be contended on that front. :p

By the way, another question out of left field, does anyone have knowledge of what the Medical Standards are to be classified Class 1? DFR were of no hope on that.

22nd Feb 2010, 11:22

Mate it has been a while since i first stepped through the door in recruiting as a naive 17 year old, but just a word of caution with the Education Award. I went for that way back when(about 10 years ago), and part of that was doing the Pilot testing, which i failed and was subsequently not able to sit the tests for another year, stopping me from applying to ADFA post year 12. It may not be the same now but i would check if i were you, and definately don't go in there half arsed like i did. I also had a D for my first YR12 Physics exam and the psyche told me that i was not smart enough, didn't have the aptitude and wouldn't get good enough marks, so should give up on that and find another career.

Another point being to anybody, that if a pysch tells you something like they told me, ignore those bastards because i listened and gave up for quite a few years. But i went back eventually and now am flying what i always wanted to fly!


Mate, Have at! I had 2 guys on my Pilots course over 30, it can definatley be done. As far as base visits go, don't go through DFR as they are hopeless, ring the base and tell them what you want to do and they should be able to put you through to somebody! I went to 2FTS, OTS and Richmond and all were quite helpfull.

23rd Feb 2010, 00:34

I'm 31 and completed FSP in Oct/Nov and was recommended and currently awaiting offer. My 1st pref is Army but missed out on the recent intake which was last week. Bit disappointed as I know of 2 guys on my FSP course who didn't score as highly as me and were both given the call for Army. The are both early/mid 20's so I'm curious as to whether age is a factor? My OSB interview went really well I thought so I can't see that as bringing my score down overall.
But yes it's definitely something to have a crack at mate. I think next Army intake is June so fingers crossed!:cool:

23rd Feb 2010, 01:22

I thought that you were not told your score?

Captain Sand Dune
23rd Feb 2010, 01:39
FSP candidates are not supposed to be told their scores after their flights.
Some candidates think they do quite well though - even if they do say so themselves............:rolleyes:

23rd Feb 2010, 04:25
Thanks for the reply, I am curious about that as well but have read mixed answers regarding age. Being that 30, I hope that helps in my application process seeing that I have "real world" work experience, am educated and keen to fly. Sorry to hear about not getting the call up this time but hang tight and go after what you want.

23rd Feb 2010, 04:52
Keenas, cheers for the response and the advice, I will certainly be ringing RAAF Amberley and will try to get a base visit and some insight from someone there. I think that will weigh well with my own head and the selection process, long term. Any other advice or tips would be extremely welcomed.

Thanks again.

23rd Feb 2010, 20:20
You get to see your file at the end of FSP which has all your individual flight scores and your overall flying stanine, which is out of 9. The only thing you don't find out is your board score.:=

23rd Feb 2010, 23:23

given that stanine 9's have not been recommended I would think it is the board score that is more relevant and more likely to make you competitive for selection.

24th Feb 2010, 03:51
Stanines vs board scores...

I believe it is combination of the two that determines selection. In other words, if you're a bit of a muppet (but trainable) airborne, but a star at the board, you might get through over gods gift to aviation who can't string a coherent sentence together or lead his or her way out of a paper bag.:ok:

I'm sure Capt SD has some more advice...:8

Captain Sand Dune
25th Feb 2010, 02:00
That's pretty well it in a nutshell. However you only get one go so give everything your best shot. Getting stressed out about stanine scores and board scores will achieve nothing. You're either recommended or not.

27th Feb 2010, 06:37
Mad Keen,

dont be discouraged by your age mate. I kicked of the selection process at the age of 30 and im currently awaiting my flightscreen date after receiveing a r2 recommendation.

The defence interveiwer told me that they like someone with "life experience" when applying for the DEO role.

But it will definately help if you have been in a leadership role at your age.

So give it your best shot mate.

As for the base tour, and in particular Amberely, they dont allow you to tour the base until you have been recommended after your assesment day. The reason being the sheer volume of people that get through the testing phase, but are unsuccesful at the assesment day.

Having said that though, if you can establish your own contact inside amberely, its likely they can take your for a tour.

i managed to establish a good contact inside Richmond and found myself inside the c130h simulator flying over sydney harbour!!!

Good luck with all the testing..

Col. James Braddock
27th Feb 2010, 09:19
From what I have heard, these days the Army upper age limit for aircrew is 42 and they are quite willing to accept applicants from that age bracket. The RAAF and Navy are not so generous. . . but then again I'd rather be back down at tree top height with the doors off, than dropping a JDAM from flight levels... :ok:

3rd Mar 2010, 07:18
Hey Ed,

I wear foam inserts purely for comfort. However when i was younger i did wear them, and orthotics as I experienced ankle troubles which have since resolved.

I was wearing the inserts when I had my Assesment day medical and the doctor told me that it was her understanding that you cannot wear any sort of insert for the first six weeks of training (ADFA) however after that it was permisable. Don't quote me on this, but none the less it was what i was told.



Dilmah G
4th Mar 2010, 11:23

Ed: Out of curiosity, what's the name of the condition that keeps you reliant on orthotics?

By the way, can anyone vouch for the validity of this? (http://www.defencepilot.com.au/index.htm) The content's convincing, but the website doesn't look too professional. And $275 is quite a bit when you're sixteen. :p

4th Mar 2010, 19:05
I've never seen this before, looks interesting (though useless at my stage).

I have the stance that if you really want it, you should spare no expense when it comes to your RAAF application so if its good I wouldn't hesitate. Alot of the info it offers are easily accessable for anyone though, but maybe if you're at the aptitude test stage it might be worth it. As for 'how to pass FSP', there really is no magic word, or if there is nobody has told me! Funny about the CF-188 picture though, on that note if you watch SBS's "Real Top Guns" you'll see that the background for the DVD menu is clearly a US Navy Super Hornet...:ugh:

4th Mar 2010, 22:48
Hmmm...seems no dodgier than the Wings website. It's just surprising not a single persons mentioned it before. At least people can vouch for Wings and there's preview chapters. It's also a lot pricier than Wings. Those testimonials on the left look legit too :rolleyes:

5th Mar 2010, 04:13
God bless meat pies and video games.:cool:

I'm on for assesment day this wednesday coming, I've done plenty of research on the RAAF and ADF in general and my case manager seems fairly confident I won't have any problems, but I've a few questions to ask for those that have already finished their assesment day.

1. How long would a typical assesment day take? (keeping in mind that I've already passed my spec. testing).

2. Would I be asked service specific questions for all my preferences? (eg. RAAF-Pilot 1st, RAN-Pilot 2nd, RAAF- ACO 3rd).

On another note. Yeah, I used to wear orthotics as well when I was younger. I had them in my hiking boots at timbertop (a school I went to) mainly for comfort and to stop getting blisters. DFR still wanted a report on it from the doc I got them from. But I'm pretty sure from what I've heard that you'd be fine as long as you don't have flat feet or are heavily reliant on the orthotics.


5th Mar 2010, 04:30

My assessment day started at 0830 and finished at 1700. They say aviation is hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror, but I think they were actually talking about the recruitment process :ok:

Jokes aside, thats how long mine took (eight and a half hours!). I was also asked Navy and Army questions even though RAAF was my first preference. These were things like, "what is the new Navy/Army helicopter?" and "Where and how long is initial training for Army?" and so on. Not all interviewers are the same, some won't ask much more than "what is the aircraft on that poster on the wall?" but I've heard others will really dig deep. Spare no effort and you'll give yourself every chance of success.

5th Mar 2010, 07:11
mhale, You do not need straight A's to become a Pilot in the ADF nor do you need Physics.

Like it says on the Defencejobs.gov.au website. you only need to pass Advance English, Mathematics 2 Unit and Three (3) other Academic Subjects (Which one has to be some type of Science, Chemistry, Physics or Biology if a Grade C was not passed in year 10)

I have spoke to many Pilots including, PC-9/A, Hawk 127, F/A-18, Blackhawks and Seahawks. They have all said the same thing. Just obtain the minimum education requirements ^^. Other things they said are.

*Show leadership potential (School Captain, Manager or Captain of a sport team)
*Show an interest in Aviation (Obtaining a Pilots licence, AAFC, Some flight hours, Aeronautics)
*At your assessment day, know everything a big must!
*Learn to do Algebra in your head and learn how to do mathematics quick in your head.
*The rest basically just show them why they should spend up to 3 million dollars on you, short answer BLOW THEM AWAY!!

Dilmah G
5th Mar 2010, 07:40
G'day :)

mhale71: Heh, I wouldn't say anyone's guaranteed success, even if I pass all my classes and the testing, I'm still in a hard place regarding the medical. Here's to hoping -3.5's within the pre-op limit for Laser.. And if it isn't, you can bet your house on who's going to appeal.

Ironically, I was just typing up a resume for a hopeful first job, so I might have some way of paying for flying lessons at the Royal Aeroclub. I've taken Aviation as an additional subject to my six at school, and as a result, scored a free 45 minute trial-introductory flight; I'm hoping to try and negotiate a "Pay-as-you-go" option for flying lessons there. $3000 seems like quite a bit to pay up-front. :P

As for the Defence Pilot books, I'll contemplate buying them when the local Maccers decides to take a second look at my CV. :P

6th Mar 2010, 03:31
Dilmah G, never pay for flying lessons up front. Most schools should allow a pay per lesson option and if not, don't bother. You shouldn't have to pay up front. Take your free trial but don't be sweet talked into anything.

Dilmah G
6th Mar 2010, 13:41
It'll be at the front of my mind OFN, and if the Aeroclub don't like the idea, I believe there's two other schools down at Jandakot I can have a talk to.

By the way, does anyone have experience with how the docs take to bad eyes in younger (ADFA) applicants? e.g. Those under 20, and thus under the minimum age for Laser surgery, if this (http://www.lasik.com.au/EligibilityCost/Eligibility.aspx) is anything to go by. And secondly, how touchy are the docs on foot issues? I have a bit of an obscure one that looks weird, but doesn't impair by ability at all.

I'm perfectly aware of the fact I haven't done any testing yet, and getting to the specialist medical isn't guaranteed, but if there are any med issues that could put an end to my first attempt, I'd rather iron them out before strolling into the local DFR.

7th Mar 2010, 01:28
Mhale, Yes if you do Physics it is extreamly diserable. If you do not do Physics and you will be competing against other who have, you really have to do some special to out-class them.
I would love to do Physics, but I don't have good enough grades unforuntatly. After year 12 I am going to have to go to tafe and do Advance mathematics, Advance English and Physics etc to build up my ATAR.

7th Mar 2010, 04:09
Hey guys,
I have my assessment day coming up very soon and am keen to get some advice from current RAAF pilots. I live in Brisbane and would love to get a tour of Amberley if possible. I have contacted the base a couple of times but am getting the run around - apparently I need to have my tests times booked, etc...

Are there an pilots from Amberley who would be open to have a chat about the recruitment process, etc...

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks again and good luck to everyone.

7th Mar 2010, 06:22
Your Physics mark will not always scale up, a comment like that shows a total lack of understanding about how the ATAR is calculated. Even if you get 95%+ in the internal and external exams you could get scaled down. Never pick a subject because someone tells you 'oh, but it has good scaling!'


You do not know anything about what you are talking about!

95% in the external exam will equate to a 95 raw exam mark. A 95 raw exam mark will be then be moderated to a 98+ examination mark.
A 98+ examination mark will scale up, contrary to what you said.
Also, a 95 examination mark will most probably get you close to a state ranking (bearing in mind that the cut off for a band 6 last year was 83 raw).

On top of that, you have a 95% internal mark, which equates to 95. If we assume you come first in your cohort, this will then be the same as your external examination mark, which in this case is 98+. These two scores, aligned internal and moderated external are then added together and divided by two.

So we're looking at a 98+ HSC mark. If you're going to argue to the contrary of a 98+ HSC mark scaling up, then you are completely out of your mind.

So please don't talk about something you know little about!


Dilmah G
7th Mar 2010, 06:31
On a related note, I believe this (http://bb.aafc.org.au/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=23090#p518253) post would dispel any notion about Physics being absolutely essential for selection.

is there much assumed physics knowledge? as i didnt take it for HSC

Grr. I'm regretting not swapping out of physics when I had the chance now.

7th Mar 2010, 06:45
Oh dilmah if only you read on.

I passed my Assesment day about 3 weeks ago now and i still haven't heard anything from anyone at recruiting. Normal? Abnormal?

7th Mar 2010, 09:29
Incorrect, the ATAR is a ranking, therefore your ranking in the class and cohort performance is much more important. There are many people who have done extremely well, getting 90+, but their marks were dragged down due to poor cohort performance. A friend of mine went from 97 raw to 92 moderated because the class he was in was averaging about 60%, i.e, a **** mark. The only people in a class who are NOT scaled is first and last place, so 2nd to 2nd last goes into a pool and their marks are moderated according to cohort performance. Why do you think nobody likes someone who doesn't work hard in their class? They'll drag you down. However, school rank no longer matters in the ATAR system, if we were discussing the old UAI system, school rank would have to be taken into account as well.

For some more information, read the following links:
Does Rank Matter ? (http://community.boredofstudies.org/851/general-discussion-2010-hsc/240101/does-rank-matter.html)

there's so much b.s. flying around, i just dont know the correct answer.... (http://community.boredofstudies.org/851/general-discussion-2010-hsc/240726/theres-so-much-b-s-flying-around-i-just-dont-know-correct-answer.html)

There is no subject that will automatically scale you up. (except MX2 I think?)

Although what you say is true, you're still wrong if you were trying to argue what I said. 95 raw examination mark will get you close to a state ranking. If you're first, your internal mark will be the same as your external moderated. Your cohort will make no impact unless you arent ranked as strongly.

friend of mine went from 97 raw to 92 moderated because the class he was in was averaging about 60%,

I believe you said 95 in BOTH INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL...See that external bit that you wrote? Sure I could be given a 100 internal and If i got 50 for my external mark, my itnernal mark would be aligned to 50. However, you clearly said both internal and external which just makes your argument void.

So just stop thinking you're so top **** and that you know everything

Thank you


7th Mar 2010, 09:32
Correct me if I am wrong, but in regards to Tony's statement about October being the last ADFA FSP slot, I do believe there are four slots from the 13th October - 18th December.

7th Mar 2010, 09:45
You are still forgetting that you wrote external, which is the centre of my argument.

Now, I don't have time to be arguing with those who can't admit that they are wrong.

So back to studying I go.

7th Mar 2010, 09:47
Wow, what's with the bashing?

Although, I do agree with FireBatHero.

The ATAR calculation is quite complex but he/she does seem to be correct.

Anyway, my question:

What kind of questions are you asked on assessment day?
I've done my research on the websites available but anything in particular that they ask to throw you off?

7th Mar 2010, 09:52
Getting 95 in both internal and external would mean that you would be getting a final HSC mark close to 100.

Remember, getting a low 80's in the exam, will be equal to 90 after moderation. So think about it, if one gets 95 in the exam, that'll be close to a 98,99,100 moderated exam mark.

That isn't even including scaling, which is then applied.


7th Mar 2010, 09:54
Look here Tony...



7th Mar 2010, 10:02
Well actually, 95% does equal 95 raw.

7th Mar 2010, 10:07
Yes you are subject to aligning. But by saying 95 in both internal and external, which in terms external marks, is very very high; to the standard of a state ranking, the internal mark of 95%, which equates to a 95 raw (I think he/she is implying this), would naturally be moderated to a much higher mark.

Then, the process of scaling.

Naturally, any mark over 90 as a raw exam, and a mark over 90 internally, will scale you up, in Physics.

7th Mar 2010, 10:13
I'm not sure what you're trying to say there but I the confusion came between your statements of

1. Physics does not scale upwards for most marks.

This is quite true.

However, the example you gave...

2. 95% in both internal and external...

It's the external bit that really threw the problems up.

So, back to RAAF Recruitment shall we?

8th Mar 2010, 02:21
Thank god for that!!

I want 5 minutes of my life back....

8th Mar 2010, 06:59
Some interesting posts up there, makes for some entertaining reading.

Hopefully my assesment day will be as fun as my spec. testing.(Happy memories, I still can't think of a video game that can replicate the sheer insanity of the co-ordination testing)

BTW Dimah, why don't you do some gliding?, its pretty cheap and one hell of a thrill. (eg. climb from ~2000 to 9000ft in about five minutes without an engine, then cruise halfway across the state) I've been doing it for about a year now and I've already met a whole heap of interesting people, some of them ex FJ pilots. I bet you'd never be taught to spin a powered aircraft as well:cool:.

I love VCE (all my subjects except one are scaled up), that convo. really made me appreciate the simplicity of it.

Dilmah G
8th Mar 2010, 08:21

To be honest, I'd be happy with ANY flying whatsoever, gliding included. My real issue is finances, barely any of the places around where I live are happy to have new employees. I'm guessing most of them filled up during the Christmas Holidays, however, my Resume should be complete with a reference or two, so hopefully my financial situation'll change soon.

My parents do give me a bit of money when I go out on the weekend with mates and that (as long as I haven't been slacking off :p), but I'll be a hermit by the time those $10 and $20 notes add up to enough money for lessons, so a job is the more viable option.

9th Mar 2010, 01:37
Yeah, I think gliding is probably the cheapest form of flying apart from being a pilot. Save up some money and give it a shot, you could also see if your parents would be willing to chip in some. After all, if you do get into ADFA they won't have to pay a thing.

Just make sure your job doesn't clash with your study time, things get a little interesting as you go into year 12.

9th Mar 2010, 06:18
Is it higher or lower now?

Dilmah G
9th Mar 2010, 08:42
I hope it isn't higher, I'm only about 167/168cm as it is.

9th Mar 2010, 09:46
I hope they increase the height limit ever so slightly, would make life a lot easier for me. I'm touch and go on the sitting height.... :ooh:

9th Mar 2010, 10:13
Yeah fingers crossed blackbird! Keep me posted on how things are going.


9th Mar 2010, 23:46
gday guys and gals,

I recently completed my medical on assesment day, and the doc told me that they were going to reduce the sitting height standard, because they were finding that a person of the max. height standard, could not properly fit in one of the training aircraft with the helmuts on (cant remeber which aircraft). This was leading to injuries when the pilot was thrown around in the cockpit. I didnt actually find out what the reduction in the standard was goin to be though. Just happy that i fit!


D John
10th Mar 2010, 06:20
Don't know the correct answer, but I'd like to see 'predatory female' and 'onya Backbitch' meet!:}



10th Mar 2010, 07:30
Yep, passed assesment day! I'm told that I'll be on the 26th June-10 July FSP & OSB (Some more paperwork that needs to be arranged before that though)

I nearly coughed myself to death on the lung capacity test

The new sitting height requirement is only for the army, Its been reduced down to 92cm max because of the new MRH-90's

I'm 93cm sitting... but not an army pilot candidate.

10th Mar 2010, 09:09
92? It was 100cm! Thats a huge drop!

Height Aviation Class 1:
Height - minimum 163 and maximum 193cm.
Sitting Height - maximum 100cm.
Buttock to knee length - maximum 67cm.
Buttock to heel length - maximum 122cm.

10th Mar 2010, 09:36

congrats. How do you know that you are on a FSP course ? Has PSA contacted you?

In regards to the new height limit it is army only and as the navy fly MRH 90s this is not the reason.

10th Mar 2010, 09:46
Word on the street from the inside is that it is due to the Kiowa, have heard a few guys are getting screwed on this.

10th Mar 2010, 09:57
Yeah, good point. If they aren't changing it for navy then it must be specifically for the Kiowa.

Its a bit weird that its only now that they've decided to change the height requirements, the army's been operating the kiowa for a while now hasn't it?

I know my FSP is not set in concrete as I haven't gotten word from PSA (sorry to get you so excited), its simply from what I've been told by the recruiters. I'll let you know when I do hear from PSA though.


10th Mar 2010, 10:06
If any of you had've read the previous thread on Australian Army height limit decrease 6 days ago you would have known about this by now.

10th Mar 2010, 10:38
92cm does seem very short in the body... If only I had've known there was a height issue with the Kiowa 6 months ago! Still, don't make any presumptions measurement-wise until you've been measured properly by the nurse. I was convinced I had eyesight issues until I had my appointment with the Opthalmologist and got the all clear. Specialists are employed in these positions for a reason...

Dilmah G
10th Mar 2010, 11:01

Johnny, would you mind me asking what your visual acuity's like? I may have eye issues up with the docs, assuming I get that far when I start the process. :\

10th Mar 2010, 11:09
Dilmah, I'm 6/5. I was just being paranoid I think!

Dilmah G
10th Mar 2010, 11:10
Ah, pfft. You can still see the chart without your glasses! :p

10th Mar 2010, 11:16
I don't even wear glasses... But it just goes to show how much you can second-guess yourself when immersed in the selection process.

12th Mar 2010, 05:52
New maximum sitting height is 92cm. down from 100cm. I'm 96 according to PSA (although I have done numerous tests on my own which make me about 93.5) which now apparently rules me out for Army which is my first and basically only preference. PSA has told me this is affecting a lot of people. It is due to the Kiowa which has been the Army training aircraft for many years now so it baffles me that it's changed now. So I've done all the hard work, testing, interviews, flight screening, been recommended and awaiting an offer but now it looks like it's all over. Why can't this apply to applicants beginning the process at the same time the limit was decreased? A lot of people in the pool now have wasted a year of more of precious time, money and emotion all for now it seems, nothing, I just don't understand. I wasn't contacted either, I had to get this information by ringing them myself. :=

12th Mar 2010, 07:56
When they measured me,when i had my medical, they didn't tell me what sitting height I was. So out of curiosity, how tall are you guys? (So I can get a bit of an estimate)

13th Mar 2010, 02:36

I'm 183cm. Another mate of mine who got his Army offer last month is 181cm with sitting height 93cm. Not looking good for him either. Word is it's all about crash-worthiness and the CA has made this knee-jerk reaction to cover their butts. I'm 31 so my chances of an Airforce offer seems slim. Navy is full. My heart is set on choppers.

Sorry to rave on but there are 25 perfectly good Huey's sittin in storage which I can't understand which in turn is contributing to the mass backlog of pilots waiting for conversions. But no let's get this French :mad: which is proven in nothing and supposed to operational at least a couple of years ago because it's new and expensive. Bravo :D

14th Mar 2010, 05:48
Army of midget pilots?

Sorry to hear about your situation cj.
That basically rules out anyone approaching 6ft doesn't it? There goes my 2nd preference. Im about 183 I think, seating height of 96cm (just measured). This could make RAAF even more competitive than it already is.

15th Mar 2010, 07:20
I realise some of this information has been posted in the past but here's some information I received about pre-op limits of refractive surgery and entry into the ADF.

Allowable Refractive Surgery for Aircrew ADF Entry
The following refractive surgery operations are acceptable for Aircrew ADF entry:

Photo Refractive Keratotomy (PRK);
Laser Epithelial Keratomileusis (LASEK)

If you are outside the following standards pre-surgery, unfortunately you don't meet the standard for ADF entry:
Candidates whose pre-surgery dioptre correction for

hypermetropia is greater than +5.00 or
myopia is greater than -5.00

(Laser in-situ Keratomileusis (LASIK) is unacceptable for Aircrew only)

If anyone wants a copy of the sheet PM me, the info above is all that you'll need though.

Dilmah G
15th Mar 2010, 08:23
Ah, thank God. My eyes have been sitting at a lovely -3.5 for the past few years.

Super 64
15th Mar 2010, 09:48
Pity that French stuff is not proven in anything.


Avionics Magazine :: French Tigers In Afghanistan (http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/issue/feature/French-Tigers-In-Afghanistan_36862.html)

16th Mar 2010, 04:30
A few months in Afghanistan, I take it all back. I hear in Darwin the avionics melt in the heat.

17th Mar 2010, 07:12
Well Dilmah, I wouldn't be getting a part time job to save for flying lessons, start saving for corrective surgery. I had a consult today, $3,250 per eye for PRK surgery! I'm assuming that's because it was the latest laser and CustomVue thingy.

Dilmah G
17th Mar 2010, 08:24

Well, I've got to find a surgeon who'll do it on me at 18 anyway. (But I think my eyes have stopped growing, seeing as my prescription hasn't changed in a long time)

Dilmah G
18th Mar 2010, 09:21
What, at all? Die.

But nah, if the first time falls through, and my YOU session results are high enough for ACO, I'll pursue that avenue. If not, there are plenty of unis around here in Perth I'd consider, (psychology's been appealing to me lately...). After that, I'd apply again of course, and if that attempt fails as well along with ACO, I'll apply as an Infantry Officer, and go for aircrew a final time at the end of that ROSO if I get in. If the Infantry don't want me, I *suppose* I could try my hand at civvy flying full-time before applying the third time.

18th Mar 2010, 13:00
Yeah, I had mine late november last year.

There are two math tests,

One is on aviation math (basic multiplication, division, percentages, decimal multiplication. Mainly problem solving and logic type questions. eg. two aircraft take off simultaneously from two separate bases x kilometres apart and fly towards each others bases at 200 knots and 350 knots, at what point time do the aircraft pass each other? Sorry to be so vauge though as it is on the actual test). This test requires exact answers correct to two decimal places and you are allowed paper and a pencil for working. I think if you were to put in a heap of effort on studying for the tests then these sorts of questions would take precedence as you really have to think about the question.

What I'd really be doing is practicing multiplication of large numbers (eg. 24x 182), division of large numbers and decimals (eg. 80 divided by 1.6 is the same as 800 divided by 16... much simpler for me) and working on distance speed and time questions as well as the conversion between units (eg. m/p/h and km/h). Also learn the 60 times table as it is really usefull for questions involving speed and time. I'll see if I can dig up some of the sources I used for revision and send it to you.

The second test is multiple choice and very interesting. It'll throw questions at you like 8045 divided by 3020 and multiplyed by one quarter and you're not allowed to use any paper to work the questions out (generally you can see which answers are out of the ball park). It doesn't hurt to round the figures down to the nearest thousand and work from there. The big emphasis on this one is time, don't get strung up on any one question. The same goes for the first test especially.

BTW, Did the recruiters tell you what tests in particular you didn't do so well on?

Feel free to PM me if you need a bit more info.

Good Luck:ok:

19th Mar 2010, 02:47
Speed Distance Time for Dummies - The Student Room (http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=501724)

Do all those and you will be set for life :ok:
Thats what i did at least.

Ive also got a link around here somewhere, that has exactly the same aircraft orientation diagram things that are used in the actaul spec testing.

Let me know if you want it.

19th Mar 2010, 09:29
Hello all, first time poster long time reader.
I have recently completed the YOU session and I am now through to aircrew testing stage. Although I am quite worried about my early flying history. You see I achieved my GFPT with thirty hours total time, however I had some difficulty in my early navigation training. It took me eleven navs before I was let loose on my first solo nav. My main issue was map reading, this skill obviously took me a long time to develop. I then went on to achieve my PPL with seventy-five hours. Since then I have not had any problems with it and have ninety hours total time.
I stress this issues is no longer present, hence the PPL. When my logbook is given to the ADF will this (early nav history) hinder my chances? Or will I be given a chance to prove myself at flight screening?

Thanks everyone

19th Mar 2010, 10:07
At least you know what in particular you need to improve the most on.

I went fairly well on the instrument comprehension test, got up to about question 52 from memory. One thing you should do is to take a really good look at the layout of the instruments in the example question just so you don't spend too much time in the test trying to decipher the poorly printed labels.

Heres some of the resources I used to revise:

(some of the questions in this test are really similar to our tests, especially the aviation math ones)

The link posted by rotor11 is another really good one I used (Theres a really good method for solving speed distance and time questions)

Another good one is the "ARCO Military Flight Aptitude Testing" book which you should be able to find for free on the internet as a pdf file, if you can't find it or it doesn't work just tell me and I'll send it to you. The aircraft orientation questions are really good because the dodgy images are just like the ones in the real test. Only some of the material in this one is relevant.

APST IPAS (http://www.nitex.nl/apst/)

Also have a quick look at some photos of macchi's, from memory the aircraft silhoutte is that of a macchi (ex RAAF and RAN training jet)

When are you re-sitting the testing?
coolmanc172, my guess is probably not although they might pay careful attention to this in particular.

We'll see what some of the others have to say...

Captain Sand Dune
19th Mar 2010, 23:35

All PSA are interested in is your total hours and recency. These are used to determine whether you are placed in the advanced or basic group. There is no NAV content in the flying you will be doing at Tamworth, it's all basic GF.

20th Mar 2010, 09:38
With respect to the speed tests, when you start, go through and do all the questions that you know first, then go back and have a go at the ones you are not sure about/need to do some working. Pretty obvious but I'm sure it has caught people out in the past.

22nd Mar 2010, 11:58
I have a question!:eek:

I've been told to expect to be on a FSP on the June-July holidays but have also been told that I have an OSB for ACO(My third preference) these holidays in april.

I've gone through the vast amount of material posted in this thread but can't seem to find an answer. Do I attend an OSB for each of my three preferences or only the two services which for which my preferences are for(RAAF & RAN) or maybe just the two roles (Pilot RAAF & RAN and ACO RAAF) applyed for?

Is this a typical situation?


PS. Good luck with your Spec. Testing Ed:ok:

23rd Mar 2010, 03:02
Hey team, anyone be joining me for FSP 17th April - 1st May?

Got the call not long ago, at the moment I'm both absolutely stoked and packing it haha :)

23rd Mar 2010, 04:46
have a question!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

I've been told to expect to be on a FSP on the June-July holidays but have also been told that I have an OSB for ACO(My third preference) these holidays in april.

I've gone through the vast amount of material posted in this thread but can't seem to find an answer. Do I attend an OSB for each of my three preferences or only the two services which for which my preferences are for(RAAF & RAN) or maybe just the two roles (Pilot RAAF & RAN and ACO RAAF) applyed for?

Is this a typical situation?

As far as i know its per role.

23rd Mar 2010, 06:09
Congrats and good luck, THG.

I just came back a few days ago, but unfortunately don't have any advice I can offer aside from what is already offered in this thread. Its about as good as you'll get without giving away the secrets we were all told not to divulge, but I'll say this though: its harder, more stressful and far more fun than I'd ever expected. Amazing two weeks.

23rd Mar 2010, 08:46
Thanks MudRat, how did you go on screening? It came as a big shock today so it was awesome news to hear... sounds like I have my work cut out for me :ok:

23rd Mar 2010, 09:56
Hi All,
My gosh this thread is long and full of great info!
Was just seeing if anyone here has recently been through PSA. I've completed Assessment Day and been recommended for Pilot and ACO. So i'm looking to get up-to-date information about PSA. I've only a few motorised flying hours under my belt so i'm working on getting more. I'm currently brushing up on basic flying maths (ie knots, distance, speed etc). But is there anything I can do to improve my overall rank?
Would appreciate any assitance and look forward your advice!

24th Mar 2010, 04:15
I was one of the six people of our group of nine to be recommended, so now I spend my days sitting beside the phone waiting for the call that I hope is imminent ;)

24th Mar 2010, 06:26
Congrats Mudrat!

Dilmah G
24th Mar 2010, 08:18
Seconded mate. :)

24th Mar 2010, 09:19
Well done Mudrat. I hear Raaf offers are out mid April/May, not sure about Navy though, think it's later than that but they are pretty full at the moment but good luck dude. If it's Army u want than I hope u are under 92cm sitting height! That 's what just killed me.:{

25th Mar 2010, 05:35
Yeah I was already pretty sure I was out of the running for Army, but it was confirmed in my OSB - I exceed the max seating height. Its a bit of a disappointment seeing as Army takes so many pilots each year. As for Navy, they'll only take a handful (half dozen or less, I've been told) this year, just like the year previous and so on.

25th Mar 2010, 09:26
The Army pool is quite empty now I'd say. I haven't heard from anyone that this hasn't affected. This is a response from one of my fellow flight screeners who, sadly, didn't get recommended but is so damn short he'd walk it in! ;
"What I'd like to know is how the #$&! 8cm is going to save your life when you hit the deck in a 3 tonne machine that is traveling at many meters per second. Good F#%&!ng luck! "