RAAF Flight Screening Programme [Archive]

Hornetboy

14th Jan 2002, 15:11

Well a few of the guys who gave me a bit of advice on the tests in a previous post wanted to hear how I'd go with them. Thanks for the help guys, and here ya go....

....I failed. Damn huh. I woke up at 5am in the morning to get there for nothing. Well, almost. Here's a bit of a summary of what they do up there first:

It's probably very similar in all recruiting units. First you do quite a bit of waiting, just to help with the nerves ya know <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Then you're put in a room, and everyone starts off with the general ability test, which is comprehensively explained. It is followed by an essay. Aircrew pilot applicants then go through an extensive battery of tests. Most are short and there's a helluva lot of maths towards the end. I actually managed to finish a couple of them, so it's not impossible to complete them. But just barely. They're all very challenging.

Then there's lunch break, followed by coordination testing. I don't think I'm allowed to mention too much about this bit, but I'll say it was slightly confusing at first. But apparently I passed it, so it couldn't have been that bad <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

The part I didn't pass was one of the instrument tests. There were 2 tests involving instruments Ripped through one and finished it. The other one, elementary number reading, I don't think I even did half before time ran low. I have no excuse, really. It was the only test that allowed you to guess without losing points, so I took advantage of that at the end, but it obviously didn't help. So that was it.....psychologist informed me later that the one bit took me out of the game. Shot down.

Went back to the recruiting Officer on the rebound, and he was a helluva good bloke about it. Very encouraging "You still have a very strong overall score.....you have high enough scores to do anything....else....Nav, ATC, Defence Controller,...."

What do you guys say? Go nav? Go fighter controller? I'd actually be pretty interested in those jobs just to get me in the military if I didn't have this great urge to fly airplanes. Well, if I can't do it for the country, I guess I'll be shipped off to university now, to be factory-pilot-trained. Try again in one year, then again the next. Heck, university can't be that bad in the meantime.

On the upside, I had a cheery chat with this Indian dude that had a suspicion - after telling me about the army nurse holding his boys and making him cough - that "Mebee she lyked my testiguls"

Surditas

15th Jan 2002, 06:44

Sorry to hear that you didn't make it through. I didn't see your original post asking for advice but this post was quite interesting.
As to what advice, I am sure that just about everyone out there would be able to offer some ranging from "keep trying" to "give it away" depending on their point of view.
If you want to join the military and want to fly then consider joining the RAAF as a Nav or the Navy as an Observer. You get plenty of flying in some pretty decent aeroplanes (Orion, F-111, Hercules, Seahawk etc) but you would have to accept the idea that you wouldn't be at the controls. You do get to do plenty of other stuff which is pretty good eg: the Tacco more or less runs the mission on the Orion. On any of the ADF's types you will get paid pretty well, get to travel around and work as part of a team (sounds like a recruiting blurb, I know, but is essentially true).
Of course, if your plan is to join as a Nav/Obs and re-role to the Pilot category then be careful. If you have failed basic apptitude for Pilot then the RAAF can be reluctant to reassess you. I know a couple of blokes who have been Navs and have subsequently become Pilots but in both cases I think they tested well enough for Pilot but were told "we have no spots for Pilot at the moment, would you like to become a Nav and maybe transfer later?"
As for other categories, such as Air Defence Officer, you get all of the benefits of being in the Service, but you don't get to fly. If you like being airborne then don't go for AirDefendo. Of course, you can always transfer to aircrew at a later date, if that is what you want, but why not, if you really want to be aircrew, go straight to Nav?
As for going civvy and trying again later that is what I ended up doing. I passed the Pilot apptitude on my first go but was regarded as "not mature enough" by the psych. (some who know me would argue nothing has changed <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ) I kept on going back and annoying them until they would take me. It worked in the end.

Trash 'n' Navs

15th Jan 2002, 09:21

Bad luck Magic. I didn't get in the first couple of attempts either but it was more to do with interview and academic results rather than test results - either way, it still sets you back.

The perenial question of joining up as anything just to get in the door....

You will get a million different responses and each one will be based on personal experience and the individuals circumstances. Here's my two cents worth and it might sound like a cop out but it really does depend on what you want to do.

Were you applying to join because you want to be a pilot (in the RAAF) or because you want to be in the RAAF (as a pilot)? Sounds weird but there is a difference. If it's the former then no job other than pilot will satisfy you and you should pursue other avenues.

If it's the latter then fill your boots. Go NAV, get paid bucket loads, get drunk in dodgy pubs in out of the way places, fly an aircraft that very few people get to fly and make some of the best mates you will ever have. You may not be the driver, but you get to go to the same places and do the same things. As Surditas said, go fly in Onions as a TACCO and you'll see and do some really interesting stuff. When you've had enough of that, get promoted up the ranks to staff/executive duties or get out and pursue a lucrative career in a profession of your choice. (You will cop banter from everyone for being a NAV but that's part of it - just enjoy the game).

Talk to as many people as you can in the other categories to get their opinion and find out what it's like.

One thought, did you ask the Recruiting Officer if it would be possible to resit the test again next year or does it rule you out indefintely?

Not an easy decision but take your time and be happy with whatever you decide.

[ 15 January 2002: Message edited by: Trash 'n' Navs ]</p>

Cougar

15th Jan 2002, 10:29

Magic,
Unlucky my friend. But its not the end of the world. A year is not a long time if you can sit it again. Go for it I say.

As for other jobs in the ADF, i must say that it is a fantastic environment (most of the time <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> ) and i would have a look at other slots. We are screaming for Air Defendo's at the moment, and if you joined now, by the time you got through if you went ADFA, we will have the new AWACS and you WILL be aircrew. Depends as the others said whether you solely want to fly or if doing something else in the aircraft would make you happy. I personally would never touch nav or air defense as i think it would frustrate me to death.

However, i would think about Navy Observer. Do the same course as RAAF Nav's at Sale. However, the guys and gals get trained as TACCO eventually and sit front left and run the show. This is where we are going, this is where i want my sonobuoys dropped, this is our plan to get the sub etc. They actually do some flying (incase ye olde pilot gets cracked somehow) so it is an avenue to think about.

Pig Weapon System Officers (Navs) get to do a certain amount of 'pole time' (flying) i believe too. Someone want to confirm this please?

Air Traffic interests me personally and i reckon it would be an exceptionally rewarding job. Can get trained to do the Parachute course and get static lined into hot spots, then setup Air Traffic systems there. Pretty darn cool i reckon.

So to sum up, i reckon see if you can do them again in a year, look at other RAAF/Navy aircrew jobs if the military appeals. But in the end, if you really only want to be a pilot and it doesn't happen, then i reckon don't go for another slot as it would only make you frustrated. Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Coug

Hornetboy

16th Jan 2002, 07:31

Thanks a whole heap guys. You all gave really helpful advice. All seemed to have overlapping advice, so I'm definitely not going to ignore any of it. I'll address all your statements personally first.

Surditas, I was actually very cautious about joining as nav and trying to go pilot from there, thanks to all the warnings I've heard on this forum. The recuiting Officer tried to extinguish those doubts, but I guess it's one of those things where it's a different situation for everyone, and you just need to take a risk to see whether you'd be able to get the change. I don't think it'd be a wise thing for me to take that risk going in. So if I go nav, I'd have to be confident I can live the life of a nav. I hope you don't mind me asking, but if it's not too personal, can you share with us exactly why they judged you not mature enough? And how long you had to wait, once failed, to resit that interview? Feel free to email me if you don't want the world to know <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Trash 'n' Navs, you make bein a nav sound like an attractive option. I'll see if I can find a RAAF nav to talk to. (Looking at the name, are you one yourself?? In that case....) To answer your question, I can resit the aptitude tests again in 12 months, fortunately. But I'm quite interested in what portion of your interview and which of your academic results the ADF originally found unsatisfactory? Once again, feel free to to email if it's public enough for me to know, but private enough for the rest of the world not to <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Just so you guys know, I'm not asking these personal questions cos I'm a nosey little guy, I'm asking so I know what to look out for. I'm also sending a letter up to Canberra to ask for my results, so hopefully I can see what my weaknesses were, work on them throughout the year, and do better if and when I go back for round two.

Finally, Cougar, I remember you from the last thread. Thanks man. Trouble with ATC or Defence Controller is the amount of stress plus likely ground time. Navy nav - my recruiter enthusiastically endorsed doing that in helicopters, and I remember the thought flashing through my mind, "Not only will I be in the Navy, but I'll be in rotaries, and not only will I be in choppers, but I won't be a pilot...". Pig nav - now that's one that doesn't sound too bad. I get to be aircrew in RAAF, and from what I know, the navs in pigs do most of the work, and the pilots are reduced to drivers (which is a whole lot of fun in a fighter!). Still though....

Well guys, the recurring question seems to be, as Trash puts it, "Were you applying to join because you want to be a pilot (in the RAAF) or because you want to be in the RAAF (as a pilot)?"

Two days later, I'm back up on my feet and actually considering going NAV or Intelligence. But to tell you the truth, I've had a taste of stick time and it'd be very hard to step back. The fact is, I love the military, but I'm essentially a pilot. And as Cougar says, "if you really only want to be a pilot and it doesn't happen, then i reckon don't go for another slot as it would only make you frustrated".

I'll keep my options open and see how far I can get if I go nav or intel, but even if offered a position, there'd be a lot of thinking to do. Chances are, I'll take a year of uni, practice the hell out of my instrument flying, then try again for pilot, and only pilot. I'll try as many times as they'll let me. Even if I'm an airline Captain when they finally accept me, I'll take Air Force flying over anything, any day.

Thanks again for all your help guys. Any more tips you've got, I'll take anything. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

scran

16th Jan 2002, 08:05

Been in the RAAF for 26 years, worked as an ATC at Williamtown, Butterworth (Malaysia), Darwin, Williamtown again, ATC Instructor, then ATC Executive at Amberley and Pearce.

Don't worry about stress!!!

Having said that.....either/any option is a good one I think!!! It's really up to you!

Surditas

16th Jan 2002, 10:44

IAM,

It is going back a few years now but when I first applied to join the RAAF I was just finishing high school and had done not much with my life except finish high school. As I said before, I passed my pilot aptitude test but the psych was alarmed by my "...lack of life experience" and unsure how I would react in a military environment. So much for the military making a man of you, eh? I went back a year later and same story.
It was then that I joined the Army Reserve. I had a great time in the reserves and ended up as a Lieutenant. I went back to the RAAF and was able to demonstate my affinity for the military. This was about five years after I first applied, so you can see i was nothing if not determined.
So, you can see that being refused entry is not the end of the world and that you can work on aspects of your character that they may find insufficient.
It is good that they will let you resit the testing in the future. There should be no problems with finding out exactly where you went wrong and if they want to see you back then they believe that you can improve.
Best of luck with the future and keep trying. It really is worth it. Whatever category you end up in you will make some great mates, go to some interesting places and do things that your mates from school in their nine-to-fivers can only dream about or pay huge amounts of money to do.

Trash 'n' Navs

16th Jan 2002, 12:05

Magic,

Bit about me then I'll start slapping you around the head for thinking about going Intel!!

My grades out of High School were on the average side (C's in the old language) and like Surditas I lacked a bit of life experience. I applied straight out of school and got the hint the second time. I went off, got myself a job that paid well, experienced life and achieved my PPL with around 100hours before I re-applied (about 5 years after leaving school). Jagged it for a spot and haven't looked back.

You're not the first person to miss out the first time. I was on course with guys who'd tried 5-6 times before being successful. Don't let the first knock put you off - they'll be looking for that. Stay true to yourself and give it another go next year. VERY good plan to get your results and see where you tripped up. Everyone I know was keen to join the RAAF and it's hard not to think "****** it, I'll just join as a xxxxx and get my foot in the door.". I'd recommend you take the year to enjoy life, maybe even do some study, but better to start flying yourself. Even if you only get 20 hours up, it shows your keen and motivated then you can try again next year.

As for Intel.... what can I say.... you must be JOKING! Never a stranger breed has there been. They look at the tea leaves and tell you that tomorrow, the sun will rise in the west. When it naturally rises in the east, they'll tell you that there had been no indicators that it would do so and predict that tomorrow, it will rise in the west but they couldn't rule out it rising in the east. Apart from their random musings, the career path is pretty flat and you spend a lot of time in dark rooms hidden away from the rest of the world. Go Nav, go AirDefendo but I wouldn't suggest Intel. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

BTW, Trash 'n Navs refers to what I do not what I am... :)

Hornetboy

17th Jan 2002, 18:11

Thanks again for the replies guys. Relief to know I'm not the only one shot down on first try.

Scran....uhhh.....don't worry about stress? bout 16 months ago I went for work experience up at East Sale. Visited the control tower...climbed the ladder to find a group of entirely cheery, normal lookin' lads up there.....well, almost entirely.

"....And right here is the boss. The man that runs the show from up here...." The 7 or so of us looked over to a huddled, hunched over man. His arms, with elbows atop the desk, were curled around either side of his head - which, from what I remember, didn't have many hairs left - blocking his ears, while he stared at a few pieces of paper as if he'd just spotted his name on a nazi death-list. Scary stuff I tell ya.

Surditas, talk about motivation. That's pretty impressive. "Life experience" huh? Well I can tell ya that in my short life I've probably squeezed in a fair bit of experience. I'm applying for other Officer positions now, so hopefully the kind lady who tests my sanity will inform me if I still lack life experience before I have another shot at Pilot next year. (That is, if I don't end up as something else) Thanks again very very much for the encouragement.

Trash, I can't help but wonder why you endorsed navs for me. Were u planning on notching another one on the board? hehe Thanks for the encouragement though. But you're also starting to scare me about this "lack of life experience" thing. By the way, my average out of high school is somewhere between an A and an A+, and I have just under 50 hours flight time, and that includes an aerobatic endorsement. (Just wish my last instrument flight wasn't about 9 months before RAAF testing)

Funny you suggested both nav and air defendo, as I've put down those two choices in that exact order. Decided against intel once I learnt they didn't have Direct Entry Intel Officer available, and I sure don't want to go ADFA. So there, I'm not gonna be one of them tea-leaf dudes. As I already mentioned, I'll see how far I can get with the other positions, but if actually accepted, I'd have a fair bit of considering to do before signing the dotted line. Uni and more life experience is more likely to be the way to go this year.

Thanks a whole bunch to all you guys that have been so helpful. As always, I'm open to any more.

scran

18th Jan 2002, 05:27

Magic,

He is a bad example!!!! (In fact, if it was who I suspect it was, he joined prior to me, is a couple of years older than me, and promoted well after me!)

Best of luck with your application in the future. WHile I know a couple of Guys who were Navs and later became pilots (CO 1 SQN and CO 37 SQN) I'd expect they may be a special breed (I know both reasonably well).

Be a devil and hang in there for Pilot...because if that's what you really want...you will get it (or at least that's the attitude you should - and appear to - have!).

My 16yo Daughter is determined to go to ADFA, Fly Hornets (Yes..no female fighter pilots now..but why not in the 6 or so years till she finishes High School and ADFA), then fly the Shuttle and end up going to Mars!

I tell you that because that is her dream, and she is determined to make it happen.

If your dream is to fly for the RAAF, (to borrow a Navy saying)......MAKE IT SO!!!!!

Good Luck!

Hornetboy

18th Jan 2002, 11:55

Thanks Scran. I hope you know that I mean no offense about ATC's, it's just not something I see myself doing. Too bad about the bald guy <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

I also hope not to be a bearer of bad news, but your daughter may not be the first lady flying Aussie hornets. I read a newspaper article saying there are currently a couple of girls in the hornet training pipeline. Still, she will be a trail-blazer. And there are few people you can respect more than females who can hold their own in the air and on the ground as military pilots. Do tell her that women prefer Venus rather than Mars though <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

And yeah, I'm hangin onto my dream. Hell yeah.

Cougar

18th Jan 2002, 17:03

Magic,
As far as i am aware no female has ever passed Hornet OCU, and there are none at 79, 76 or OCU now in the running.

No reason why not, just never been done. Have had pig pilot though.

Rene Rivkin

20th Jan 2002, 06:58

Magic, you are already 80% of the way there since you have been given the ok for further selection as Nav aircrew, do have a personality, and can spell !

If you want to be a military pilot though, you need to show a big big motivation level for that during the selection process. It qualitatively adds to your overall rating regardless of your test results. The reason is that if you hit hard times on Course then that may be all that carries you through regardless of how well your test/interview/profile results were at the start.
For that reason you shouldn't join as something else to get your foot in the door as there are other ways, or be wavey about career streams.
So, if you get offered Nav, EngO, ATC, or anything else just treat it like an offer to join Army Catering and tell them politely thanks but you will reapply later for Pilot after you learn and do a few more things to raise your suitability, then go out and do just that.
On your application form, write 'Pilot', then draw a line to the bottom of the page !

If your written tests let you down, then get hold of similar tests and practice or get someone to make up some (a lot) based on what you have seen, and practice them.
Apply for non Government jobs that may have similar tests and use their selection procedure as more practice.
Find out which Uni's etc run HR and psychology courses that may include this type of selection/testing then go through their libraries to see what you can find.
Stay in contact with people going through the selection process (too late now this time ?) and get your own little syndicate of like-minded people so you can compare notes - everyone will pick up separate ideas. Some people want to run their own race on the belief they will grease in so good luck to them.
The Internet would be a good info source if you do enough searching.

The best source of information will be the Recruiting Officer who is handling your application. I would preface any enquiry by telling him its now Pilot or nothing (except civvy pilot once you are too old to reapply).
On that point, you should find out if you can have 'too many' civvy flying hours, if success takes a while and you plunge into a civvy flying career. If you do and go bush, you will rack up 500 hours with a couple of years.
Remember that the Recruiting Officer is employed by the ADF to fill slots on training courses with people who will pass and then rip into the job, not to get everyone into the job they really want. If he/she needs (eg.) Navy Observers more than RAAF Pilots and thinks you wouldn't mind and could do it, then expect the big sales pitch.

Don't go IntelO if you want to be aircrew.
Trash n'Navs has his own view <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> on Spooks, based on being receiving intel products so that he can safely go out and about in his Herc ! The other parts of the intel process are a lot more interesting than assessments of the % chance of some disaffected local digging a concealed C130-nosewheel width hole to a certain depth, before Friday 1300Z, in some airfield in a foreign land !
The actual reason to avoid Int is that the ADF may be unwilling to later send you in harms way (ever..) if you have a head full of Int training and material. If you get captured you will end up telling them the lot - its not TV.

In your reply to Cougar you mentioned stress as an ATC - it shouldn't be a consideration since an ATC can hand over to some else if everyone is talking to him at once, whereas a pilot can hand over nothing when everyone is shooting at him !
Stress and patience during the selection process ? Lets just say that not everything will be all that it seems... this is so that they get to see you at no notice under big personal stress or perhaps under none at all, and rightly so. Cups of tea and biscuits will end at some point. Its 'depth' not 'technique' that will get you past this - and that means life experience - enough said and you work out the rest.

Surditas's five year path through the Army Reserve and back to the RAAF is a good example of the time frame and content of a Plan B (!) to make your self a very good bet for a Wings Parade.
At the moment you are looking at 12 months to the next selection and regard that as some sort of timeframe, so perhaps you are trying to fit everything into those 12 months. Don't.
What is the real objective - to be a RAAF pilot or to hammer away, year by year, at the selection process ? Remember that 50% of people who get on Course don't pass it - you have to have what it takes to pass the selection process AND the Pilots Course AND OCU. Take your time and pack in enough content to overkill any barriers, both internal and external, to these objectives. Maybe years not months but what do you want ?

Reserve service is excellent because you see the Military, and it sees you and writes eval reports about you. You also get to know people who can help you along later, but no, don't become Rudolf the Brown Nosed Reindeer - that won't help...
Get into a proper Reserve unit with proper roles and tasks - and the indicators of that will be the unit telling you that they need to see you for X number of days per year which will be a lot more than the advertised minimum, plus that they will expect you to do some full time unit courses with no days away. The more courses the better - that all produce course reports that will follow you forever and testify to your abilities.

What other contact can you have with the RAAF ? I did a lot of gliding at a RAAF Gliding Club, and the things I learned there about selection, courses, plus the refs from the RAAF guys who were instructors were invaluable., eg., other applicants had refs from KFC; I had a ref from a RAAF Pilot who had done a tour as a senior instructor at Pearce. The point though, is that I genuinely wanted to be in a RAAF Gliding Club, not to be in a position to have someone slide a good reference into my hand.

The key point here is that you don't want to leave anything to chance or luck in the selection and training process. Don't confuse "giving it your best shot" with comprehensively positioning and configuring yourself to get into a Squadron. "Giving it your best shot" is ok for the Under 18's school footy team but it ends there.
Ten years down the track would you expect to leave the lives of the people under your command, or mission success, up to chance or luck, or accept the same from people above you ? No. Start now.
THAT is really the what this is all about, since that will be what is evaluated in the step that you haven't seen yet - the Board interview. Its this that you want to find out the most about, from the Recruiting Officer.

The selection process you have seen so far is really there only to provide a short list for the Board. You will get to front up to a couple of Pilots of Squadron Leader / Wing Commander rank.
Their job is to see if they want you working for them. They are visualising you in the units they run / used to run. Do you fit ? If you get selected then it means that you will.
As well, there will be a pysch, and Education Officer and maybe someone else. They are specialists who will look at you from their own technical points of view, for any odd bits poking out that may get in the way later.

Treat the Board as the opportunity to enter a group of people that you genuinely and confidently know are doing the things that you should be doing and living the life you should be living, not as some stressful interrogation to find all your hidden flaws and thus pronounce you a complete dud !
Regard it as being Day One in the RAAF because when you walk in that door that's where you'll be ! Remember that in the end, the job is to get rid of the other side's ORBAT and/or willingness to use it, and to have great Dining In nights, and not get military training for an airline career.

All the above posts are great, but copy down and laminate the last line in Trashy's post above.

My background ? I did/learned all the above, applied for RAAF Pilot, passed every selection test, got a Board Interview on my first go, go in, passed every ground school exam, every flying test, and gave it away half way through Peace because my fiancé was spitting the dummy and walking. In the end she was more important. Regrets ? Only about what I don't know. Army Infantry was great, after, and I did more hard yards there than I could have ever done as a knuck.

By the way, did you see the Army nurse too and do you think she compared you more favorably than the Indian's <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ?

------------------------

Regards Rene

<a href="http://www.insider_trading_is_a_bitch.com.au" target="_blank">www.insider_trading_is_a_bitch.com.au</a>

Hornetboy

20th Jan 2002, 17:06

Wow that's really helpful stuff RR. Thanks a whole bunch. Printed it up for further reference. lol

First, Cougar, I'm really not sure how old that newspaper article was. I actually read it behind a glass protector at the recruiting centre, and figured it couldn't have been that old. But hey, if you're right, then it looks like both the women failed hornet training. Bummer. Do u fly hornets Cougar?

RR, unfortunately, I didn't get the opportunity to have the army nurse compare my....uhh....talents. That's the thing. I didn't even reach the medical, and I didn't get a full psychological interview, because I got cut off so early. You seemed to be quite adamant against applying for nav or anything else when I really want pilot. But I feel that even if I were to decline the positions, it would be a good learning experience. The nav medical would be similar to the pilots one, just like the nav/air defence psych interview, and OSB, if I should get that far.

I do want to be a pilot very much. But I'm applying for these other positions to....
1.) Keep my options open.
2.) See what I can learn; ie so I don't need to wait till next year's selection process before I find that I too "lack life experience", or something of the kind.

Do you think that applying for these positions with the possibility of not accepting them will greatly jeopardize my chances of becoming a pilot? For example, if I were to fail somewhere along the process, will the pilot board next year have doubts about letting me fly when I can't even be nav/air def? And if I should pass and decline, will the RAAF lose faith in my responsibility as an officer and motivation as a pilot? And obviously, if I should pass and come to accept, well....

Surditas

21st Jan 2002, 10:27

It's All Magic,

Just looking at Mr Rivkin's (excellent) post and your reply. I have entered the null zone between waiting for tea in the mess and going flying so I thought I would throw in my (further) two cents worth.. .First, DO NOT apply for other categories (Nav/Airdefendo) unless you would be happy doing those jobs. The selection experience would be valuable to you (up to a point) but ADF Recruiting might be a little upset being used as a rehearsal. The recruiters, if they were any good, would pick up on the fact that your heart wasn't in it and you would probably fall short before the Board. When I was at recruiting the last time they asked me "If you don't make pilot, would you want to be a nav" I replied "nup" and they said "Stick to your guns, we are hunting for navs at the moment". I am damn glad I did stick to my guns.. .Oh, just because you can't be a nav doesn't mean you can't be a pilot. A few blokes here at the Sqn were told they "didn't have the maths" for nav, but they could be pilots.. .Back to Rene. He is spot on in saying the Board will look at you trying to imagine you in a Sqn. They will look at how socially adjusted you are (you don't have to be an extrovert: there are quiet knucks and rowdy trashies), how you deal with setbacks, how you deal with stress, how well you are able to study, how stable is your home life (look at what happened to RR, on his way to jets, but had to make the big sacrifice) I was lucky: single whilst on pilot's course (although I tried to change that every Saturday night :) ) and I am very lucky to have a supportive girlfriend now. But it also what your parents think, too. If your dear old mum is terrified of you spudding in one day then that could be detrimental. The biggest thing they are looking for, though, is your grit and determination to succeed as a pilot and, to a lesser extent, as an officer. As for succeeding as a pilot, it is not just getting your wings (bloody fantastic as that is) but it is passing Hornet/Pig conversion or conversion onto another type, working as part of a crew if your aeroplane comes so equipped and progressing to captaincy in a reasonable time if you don't go fast jets.. .Ideally, they want all of the above, plus someone who will stay on in the RAAF for as long as possible. I am early in my RAAF flying career and want to stay in as long as I can. I don't especially want to rise to be CAF, but I do like the flying we do and I love the camaraderie and the feeling of belonging to an organisation that does something worthwhile.. .If you decide to join the Reserves like I did and Rene R did after leaving the RAAF, do, as he suggested, join an arms (fighting) corps. You will get a taste of the operational end of the military as well as having a great time. Infantry would be my first choice, followed by tanks thence guns (artillery). Me, I was in (RR will s******) RASIGS (Signal Corps) which was basically taking radios and computers into the bush. I did all the infantry stuff in officer training. It was bloody hard work, but really rewarding. If the RAAF hadn't of happened for me I was going to transfer to infantry or go Sig Commandos. Reserves are not for everyone, but it worked for me.. .What happened to me after recruiting?. .Did Officer Training School at Point Cook (a doddle after the Army) then headed over to Pearce for the flying bit. I wanted (and still do) to become a Pig driver, but I was a bit hot and cold on pilot's course doing some things really well and others not so well. The flying itself was fantastic: aeros, low level, formation really cool, cool stuff that you can do as a civvy pilot, but it costs you heaps of money. The instructors were all professional and the all of us on course became good mates. Having my wings pinned on was one of the best days of my life. I ended up flying the Draggie in Sale and got my initial captaincy last year. It ain't jets, (and I am still trying to get there) but we do low level, formation and other fun stuff, just not, obviously, aerobatics.. .My advice in a nutshell? Find out precisely where you went wrong, identify what you can do to fix it, fix it and reapply as a pilot. I they turn you away, try again etc until they tell you that you are not suitable. If that is the case, apply for nav, or Airdenfo, or ATC. Keep in mind that the selection board is not really something you can rehearse for too much. If you are right for the job then they will accept you.

2muchROSO

21st Jan 2002, 20:31

Mate,. .There was a guy on my pilots course (167!!!) that applied 7 times and went through the whole testing process. All is say is try try and try again... determination is a quality they are looking for.... .Good luck, and it is the best job around.

Cougar

22nd Jan 2002, 10:35

No magic, i am not a knuck. Wouldn't mind getting as ride tho... anyone???

Trash 'n' Navs

22nd Jan 2002, 11:03

Magic, two things:

1 - MMSBGTST. Mustard Mud S**t or Blood just Grit your Teeth and Stay There. You learn it on PLT's course and it works. DO NOT give up - ever. Well, maybe when they take your medical off you....

2 - Don't apply for any position in the RAAF thinking it will impress a Recruiting Officer. As said above, they have a job to do for the ADF and they will fill holes wherever and whenever they can. Their priority is to RonnieRAAF not you. I have heard some horror stories about what people have been told about changing category after joining up.

As RR said, walk away, fix what needs fixing, do whatever you need to do to make you competitive THEN reapply. It shows more about you as a person than butting your head against a wall every year or settling for second best.

Trashy

2muchROSO, was that Crash? Drop us a line...

[ 22 January 2002: Message edited by: Trash 'n' Navs ]</p>

2muchROSO

22nd Jan 2002, 12:45

Trash, . .it was Franky....(the voices!!!) If you don't know he got scrubbed half way through... bit of a "different guy", but at least he got a stab at it!

Trash 'n' Navs

23rd Jan 2002, 11:21

2much,

Yeah "different" is the word. Never forgive him for relieving his bladder on the back seat!!!

Hornetboy

23rd Jan 2002, 16:44

Just a quick thank you message to Surditas and Trash in particular for the helpful, lengthy advice. Been really busy (and lacking a lot of sleep this week) so I'll finish this off later, but thought I should take the effort to thank you ASAP for helping me out so much. Hope you get your ride cougar! Thanks also to 2muchROSO.....that was encouraging.....well.....the first part to the story anyway <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Anyway, will come back to say more soon. By the way I got my number one and two university and TAFE positions I applied for, and my number one college. It's for commercial flying, but at this stage that's the best I can do. So pretty happy. I had to find out from my friend as she was congratulating me because she actually had the time to read the paper!!

franksnbeans

24th Jan 2002, 04:02

IAM,

I was dicked on the medical, but was told by recruiting that if you want to reapply, you only have another two tries(?).

fnb

Hornetboy

25th Jan 2002, 17:22

Phew! Tough week. Thanks so much once again to the guys who have given me all that advice. Look this has been so helpful, and I appreciate every single contributor. I still have a fair bit of thinking to do, and I'll have to have another chat to my recruiting Off before I make up my mind. I know, with every pound of flesh in my body, that I want to be a RAAF pilot, but I'm in a unique situation right now, with a lot of external considerations/responsibilities to keep in mind, on top of those mentioned. I hope to God I make the right decisions somehow. Thanks to you all, and feel free to email me any time, for anything. You guys are great.

Good luck franksandbeans. That's two more golden chances for ya. And RR, man....I don't know what to say. You really loved the girl huh.

Barry Murphy

24th Jul 2002, 20:31

Hello,

Does anyone know the Anthro limits for the RAAF? Such as buttock-knee length and sitting height. Any response would be great!

hueywsh

24th Jul 2002, 21:56

Mate, if memory serves me correctly it is no taller than 100cm sitting height, that is for aircrew. I think if you have a look at www.defencejobs.gov.au that should help you out with all the other info you need.

Cheers

Low-Pass

25th Jul 2002, 10:16

Max sitting Height of 100cm and Max Height of 193cm from memory. Weight min. 50kg (for ejector seats) but has to be in proportion to height.

Cheers, LP

Elvis the Spot King

2nd Nov 2002, 23:40

I have to write a submission with my application to show that my subjects studied at uni meet the Yaer 12 English requirement for entry to the ADF. Has anyone on this forum had to do this, or know anyone who has successfully done this? Any advice or help would be appreciated.

bigdog1971

3rd Nov 2002, 05:43

Mate, I am a Australian Army pilot and although I had completed y12 English, I had not done the req'd physics subjects. I was granted a waiver due to my trade training in physics. I have assisted a number of people trying to become ADF pilots (im assuming that you are trying to be a pilot) and I know that all applications are looked at, and providing you can show that you have had a good level of further training after school, in all cases waivers were given. The entry requirements are only a guide (mostly to stop bums wasting recruitings time).
However the aircrew medical is very strict.
Most of all dont take every word of a recruiting officer as gospel. These people are placed in recruiting positions with little or no training, & through no fault of their own cannot be expected to know every aspect of another corp! Unless you are very lucky and have a Aviation officer in your area!
Best of luck:cool:

oldpinger

3rd Nov 2002, 22:48

Concur to some degree with Bigdog about believing the recruiter,so why don't you get it straight from the horses mouth(s) and organise a visit to your local aviation base and talk to the aircrew about it all, unless you are remote area oz most capital areas have a big enough place to visit, ok, maybe not Melbourne.:p

As for the english, talk to the recruiting people as they're the ones that want you, and they should help out. Drop us an email if you have no joy.

We get loads of visits here and I've seen a few of them return as aircrew, so it does help.

ps- I have no degree and managed to avoid ADFA:D

Elvis the Spot King

6th Nov 2002, 03:09

Thanks guys. I should have mentioned that I am applying as a pilot in the ADF. I found the corporal at my local recruting office very helpful, although a little deficient in specific knowledge on pilot careers, he went out of his way to help me.

When I called my local base I was told I need to organize a base visit through the recruiting office. When I called recruiting, they said that I could only do a base visit when I had a test date.

You guys might be able to help me with this one. When an experienced pilot goes to flight screening, what sort of flying do they put you through? I know they put you through a different syllabus to ab-initio, but I just wanted to know what to expect.

I spoke to the recruiting people in Sydney about what should be included in the submission, I just wanted to hear what other people had included that worked for them. It's good to hear that the education requirements have some flexibility and that I'm not wasting my time.

bigdog1971

6th Nov 2002, 05:02

Mate good to see that you are being pro active about it. Some people expect all the info to find them!.....
As far as Flight screaming goes, you would be better asking "oldpinger" as I suspect (by his profile) that you may be seeing him sometime soon face to face.? I can't comment on it as I did not go through that process when I joined up.
I see by your profile that your listed in NSW? is this still the case? if you are anywhere near Townsville I would be happy to give you look around. (although im currently in East Timor till Dec).

Good luck.

--------------
If it dont Hover.....Dont Bover

Elvis the Spot King

7th Nov 2002, 02:20

Thanks bigdog. Used to fly up your way last year (beautiful Mission Beach). Now I'm back in NSW. Never know, I might end up your way again in 2 years. Good luck in East Timor and thanks for the comments.

BackdoorBandit

7th Nov 2002, 02:44

Elvis, I hope you have been exercising!

Orion1

7th Nov 2002, 08:12

The thing about only being able to do a base visit after you have a date, is crap. Ring ANY flying base in the ADF and ask them for a visit. You will get one no doubt.
And by the way, you should be proud of which service you are going to join. ADF pilot my butt, we're all in it together, but be proud of the 'blue' 'white' or 'green'.
Good luck:D

Elvis the Spot King

8th Nov 2002, 01:13

My loyalty is to whoever gives me the opportunity. I'd be happy flying for any of the services. They all offer their own exciting style of flying. I'm sick of GA's shonky operators, dodgey maintenance, and lack of employment stability with operators shutting down all around. I gave up the dream of flying the big commercial jets long ago, and now that I have the opportunity to join the ADF, I can spend the next 20yrs enjoying my flying.

Yes, BDB, I've been out jogging this week. Good fun with all those flies.

Re: base visits. Does anyone know who I should contact at RAAF 37SQN for a base visit?

Wings Of Fury

18th Nov 2002, 04:27

About two weeks ago I went through the Australian Defence Force Testing for pilot entry into the RAAF and passed all the aptitude tests and was about to be sent to Flight Screening but in the medical I was boarder line between Colour Perception 2 (CP2) and CP3 (you have to be CP2 for DEO Pilot).
The doc said that it would be ok for me to be sent to Flt Screening but some more testing would follow, but after about an hours wait he said that at this stage its no go and you will have to appeal this matter with the guys in Canberra, my application still under consideration.

I have a CASA class one medical which allows me two fly any aircraft daytime or nightime and as a commercial pilot for the last 3 years have never had a problem with anything outside or inside the aircraft day or night, no problem with the colours on the EFIS screens.

I am asking if any Military pilots have had any sort of problem similar to this, or know of anyone who has?.
If the appeal gets the thumbs up then its all ok but I am wondering what my chances are?

All replies welcome thanks,

Wings Of Fury.

Fox3snapshot

20th Nov 2002, 03:47

APPEAL

Whilst I didn't have an eye sight issue at the time I was canned on a hearing issue. It was only through a very lucky meeting with a senior RAAF Officer whilst serving Chicko Rolls and Hot Pies at the local cafe in the sunny fly ridden out back of Northern Australia...ie Katherine! that I was given very useful information on the appeal process. I appealed "Howzat!!!"and subsequently did a far more thorough and accurate set of testing at the National Acoustics Lab and I was accepted. The recruiting staff ( probably through no fault of their own) were not helpful and certainly did not offer me the appeal option, they did however offer me jobs in the NCO ranks (probably because they were short on that particular quota!!!!) and would not assist me any more. I might add from my first application to arriving at Officer training school was almost 3 years!!!! The recruiters were only game to go to the Northern Territory twice in a year at that stage so the long and the short of it is hang in there!

I might add I subsequently went blind and deaf whilst in the Air Force but that was probably from the stale beer and 19,000 decibal stereo in the Pearce O's mess bar!!!

:D :D :D

Wings Of Fury

24th Nov 2002, 03:04

Thanks, I sent the appeal last week its on its way to Canberra.
I can only hope they approve it, I have documented evidence from CASA and one other letter.
I am also in my 3rd year of applying.

F75

24th Nov 2002, 05:48

Obviously you are heading down the right track with an appeal - good advice from Fox3snapshot. My tip is that you don't stop if the appeal fails first time. Experience says the Doctors are in the business of tin plating their arse rather than making efforts to clarify results of tests...it is going to be your job to give them the confidence to accept you with your slight problems (and we all have them). Second opinions / specialist reports will all help them. Have you sat the board yet? If you haven't a tenacious approach to this hicup with the doctors will go down well with the pilots on the board...just what we want to see.

Good luck and post more if you need more info.

Fox3snapshot: Which cafe in Katherine? Not the BP...and do you mean YKYMF?;)

Wings Of Fury

26th Nov 2002, 05:17

Thanks F75,
I have made plans about appealing against appeal!
Have not sat the Board yet, its after Flt screening now, but the doc said to me on the day of testing "we may give you specialist testing after the Board" but then walked out of the room for 2 mins and came back and gave me news to appeal. He was a civilian doc.

Do you think I have sent enough information to back the appeal? ( the letter from CASA/Victorian College of Optometry, one from a Parent/Guardian who has knowledge of this, and a letter on my behalf)

Thanks again,

Fox3snapshot

26th Nov 2002, 21:40

F75

Enjoyed many a Chiko Roll and Pauls Iced Coffee at the lovely little BP at the end of Katherine Terrace....in fact I logged about 400 hours there having spent 20 years of my life in Katherine and my parents running that particular BP at one stage. What I didn't mention is that my hearing problem was induced by DJAY-ing at what was then "Mopokes", then becoming Wings nightclub (CROSSWAYS HOTEL) and god knows what now....."I don't care what music just play it loud!!!!!"

Good call on the try and try again advice F75....I did and it worked. And as for the butt covering, well after all the palava of getting in I had a nice green slip I had to carry around in my medical docs that reflected the Air Forces generosity in allowing me in and a clause to ensure that I would not claim in later life that I was deafened by an FA18 fighter doing engine runs in the Willytown Back bar!!!! Truth is the cleaners vacuum cleaner was just as noisy but that's another story.

Good, Better, Best,
Never let it rest,
Till the good is better,
And the better best!

:D :D :D

Wings Of Fury

13th Dec 2002, 23:02

Unfortunately the appeal didn't go ahead, I got a phone call from a man who told me something strait out of a book telling me why I couldn't join, it defeats the purpose of appealing because what he told me is what I was appealing against, I don't think they took it very seriously.:mad:

Any suggestions? Maybe a re-appeal?:confused:

SASless

15th Dec 2002, 04:42

The dots kind of test always drives me nuts....seems I have a Red-Green deficency....nothing said until I did my UK Medical exam....had the special light test they use...passed no problem....then 29 years after my first US Army Class One medical exam.....my friendly FAA quack decided I was "colour blind" and was going to ground me medically. Despite my protests....he remained adamant that I "did not see the same colours as "normal" sighted people" and thus was unfit. Notwithstanding my 9,000 hours of flying at that time....accident and incident free mind you.....it took my employer suggesting they would remove all of their business to some other clinic before our Quack decided maybe he was being out of order. Not really, an appeal....but had the same effect. The FAA and CAA have special tests to assess the degree of colour blindness.....hang in there and keep looking for a friendly quack that will try to help you.

NOSIGN

15th Dec 2002, 23:36

To the wings of fury,

there is someone else in the same boat...

I too am apealing the nurses decision to scrap me because of an accident i had 9 years ago. I have 2 metal pins in my femur. These pins do not affect and never have affected me at all! Some bureaucrat decided "...let there be no pins in the air force", and thats final.

A letter from my surgeon states that the ADF view is completely illogical and that ADF are rarely willing to consider applicants on a case by case basis which is what some people deserve. He goes on to suggest to threaten them will legal action, i.e. equal opportunity, unfair discrimination etc

:eek:

Perhaps this applies to you, and maybe its something you can consider.

Good luck,

:cool:

griffinblack

16th Dec 2002, 00:36

It is has been well known in the ADF community for number of years that a senior ADF commander is green/red colour blind. The word is that he passed the eye test by memorising the numbers/lines/shapes.

From all accounts and from my flying with him, he has never had any problems, including being a highly regarded QFI.

ozbiggles

19th Dec 2002, 12:54

WOF, send a letter to the defence force ombudsman(address in white pages government section) and one to the minister for Defence (I'm sure you know who he is after stuyding for the board). These two areas won't have the answer for you but should be able to get you a official WRITTEN response. Make sure you write a letter (a nice one), don't settle for phone calls. Let us know what happens.

Wings Of Fury

26th Dec 2002, 00:28

Thanks OzBiggles and all, will do.

MASI

22nd Oct 2003, 18:52

O.k i realise that a subject of this nature should belong in a wannabe forum BUT after e-mailing the ex RAAF pilots whom fly the strikemasters at pt cook (YMPC) and not getting a reply, and reading all the "glossy" info form the air force i would like a realistic view of what to expect, i assumed this forum is the place to get these answers!

i want to know what is the selection process for the RAAF and what is to be expected in trying to achieve a fast jet position?

i understand only 2-3 pilots out of 1500 get to th f/j's....

i would be very appreciative of any replys and info!

Surditas

23rd Oct 2003, 06:00

MASI,

First up, it's not two to three pilots out of 1,500 who get to fly FJ's, but two to three applicants out of 1,500 who get to fly FJ's. Out of a typical pilots course, 40-50% of graduates will be posted to FJ's with probably a third of those passing F/A-18 or F-111 conversion, so it is more like two to three pilots out of 15 who get to fly FJ's.
My information on the selection process is now six or seven years old, dating back to when I applied. Your best bet to get the current info is contact Recruiting and they will outline the process. Another good thing to do is arrange a visit to a flying SQN (Recruiting can arrange this for you) and talk to the junior pilots there as they can give you first hand information about their selection.
First, you have to ask yourself a whole bunch of questions. In no particular order, some of them are:
1. Why do I want to join?
2. Am I comfortable with signing on for the required 12 years?
3. How would I feel if the RAAF sent me off to a real shooting war?
4. What does my family think about my joining?
5. What do I know about the RAAF?
6. What do I know about the job of being a military pilot?
7. If I didn't get FJ's, would I be happy at, say, P-3's or at Hercs?
8. If I failed pilots course, would I stay in the RAAF and try for Nav or another category?
Next, at Recruiting, you will be barrier tested which involves:
1. Comprehension testing
2. Mathematical testing (you don't need to be a mathematical genius, but mental arithmatic is something you should be familiar with)
3. Psych testing
4. Physical co-ordination testing
5. Medical testing.
After that, expect a chat with the psych and then the recruiting officer. If you pass the initial stage, you will head off to Tamworth for Flight Screening where they put you in a plane to see if you can take instruction and not throw up (too much) during aeros. If successful at Flight Screening you will be put in front of a Selection Board and asked many of the questions that I mentioned above.
If successfull at the Board then it is off to Officer training for you which will either be three years at ADFA or three months at OTS.
Following Officer training you will enjoy three weeks of Combat Survival Training School and then a week of Aviation Medicine training before you end up back at Tamworth to begin flight training. Expect a month or two of ground school (aerodynamics, air law, meteorology, systems etc etc) before you get airborne in the CT4. At Tamworth you will cover basic flying, instrument flying, formation and nav. After Tamworth it is over to Pearce for PC9 conversion and the applied or military part of the course where you take the basics and turn it into, say, split RV formation, ToT, HiLo and all of that good gear. If successful, a senior officer will appear one day and pin Wings on your chest and then you retire to the Mess for Grad Ball and alcohol, pilots, for the consumption of. If posted to transport or maritime you'll be off to another base for conversion. If Posted to FJ's you will do a Hawk conversion with 79 SQN in Pearce, then head to 76 SQN in Willy to learn how to be a junior knuck on the Hawk and then to 2 OCU or 6 SQN for F/A-18 or F-111 conversion respectively. Pass that and then you start working your way up the category chain.

Simple really.

In terms of what you can do to become a FJ pilot, well, I fly Hercs, so I cannot tell you for sure, but:
1. Work hard on pilots course. You may be a natural, but if you are lazy they will hesitate before sending you there.
2. Be born with the right skills to be a FJ pilot.

Double Asymmetric

23rd Oct 2003, 13:37

All good gen there from Surditas.

Surditas, check ya PM's.

DA

DRAGWA

23rd Oct 2003, 14:57

MASI,

I reckon one of the most important things to do throughout the recruit, pilots course process is to stay positive and never give up. Even when you're having a shocker in the seat.

It makes a difference to the perception that the instructors/testers are going to have of your conviction.

Plus if you don't end up at fast jets you can join the rest of us hauling trash around the planet. There are lots of ways to have fun in this mans Air Force.

:ok:

Surditas

25th Oct 2003, 00:26

DA,

PM checked (as you can tell) :ok:

DRAGWA,

Ha, ha "Country Club". Know what you mean. I had three years down there flying the D.

Hudang

26th Jan 2004, 09:24

Hi,

I've got 3 weeks to go until I head up to Tamworth for Flight Screening. I'm trying to access all points of information and was wondering if any of you had suggestions, information and general knowledge about the whole process. The more detail the better :).

Also, there is the OSB at the end of it. Once again if you have any suggestions etc. That would be great!

Thanks so much for your advice.

Kind regards,
Hudang

Karhu

28th Jan 2004, 10:43

Please check your PM's Hudang!

victor two

29th Jan 2004, 17:33

Hudang,

I am in the same boat as you and heading off to screening in few weeks myself. Any chance that you can post Karhu's info onto this thread. I have researched as much as possible thru the ADF website (fairly vague and non descript) and spoke to some serving pilots about what really goes on in Tamworth but it is still pretty vague. One guy called it a "bit of a holiday" and was just really happy that Tamworth had a Hungry Jacks. Helpful stuff ain't it!

Hope to see you down there and good luck.

cheers

Vic2

Cougar

30th Jan 2004, 04:53

G'day guys,
Flight Screening is probably the most challenging thing you will have done at the age of 17+. It is certainly NOT a holiday, and if you treat it as such, i don;t expect you will pass.

Study is the biggest tip. Get in there and study as much as you can in the evenings or when not flying.

They don;t expect you to be a perfect pilot, they are looking for rate and ability to learn. They will generally demo a technique, then give you a go, then assess you on the next try. This happens for the entire two weeks.

You will fly both the CT4 and CAP10 (varying amounts depending on previous experience). Do not lie about your previous experience. Many people have been thrown off course for this in the past.

The CAP 10 is quite challenging as its a tail dragger, and quite difficult in the circuit. Once again, studying and knowing the parameters etc will hold you in good stead.

Try to enjoy yourself as much as possible. Sounds noddy, but the more you enjoy it, generally the better you will do.

Finally, have a positive attitude. You will find it challenging, but immensely rewarding.

Hope this helps.

Karhu

3rd Feb 2004, 09:00

Hi all.

I've passed all my initial aptitude testing for RAAF pilot and now have Psych, Officer Interview & Board left to get around.

Are there any forum users out there who have already been through these next steps and can offer some insight? If so it'd be great to hear from you.

Thanks in advance.

Regards, Karhu.

Karhu

5th Feb 2004, 10:17

Anyone at all???

VCR

5th Feb 2004, 15:49

Sorry.............I haven't!

Good Luck tho!:ok:

Cougar

6th Feb 2004, 04:38

Biggest tip: Be honest. Generally the Psych interviews are quite long, and often they will ask you the same question a number of times during the 2 hours+ but in a different way to see if you give the same answer, or are just telling them what you think they want to hear.

Second biggest tip: Be honest.
Third biggest tip: Be honest.

For the Board, make sure you know WHY you are applying for your particular specialisation, where you can be posted in that specialisation, and as many specifics about that specialisation as possible. Ie, if you want to fly fast jets, find out where they are based, what a typical day consists of, what progression you can expect, what your future looks like after flying (in terms of promotion etc). Be able to tell the board about a Hornet and Hawk, their armament, how many we have etc. It all shows just how interested and motivated you are. You don;t need to be an expert, just know a bit about it.

If you get thrown some curly questions by the board (and you will), take your time, don;t get stressed and work through it. They want to see how you handle pressure etc.

Other than that, relax.

Finally, the biggest tip: Don;t lie.

FTI

12th Feb 2004, 08:21

Hi Karhu..

I have passed these same tests.

Twice.

The first time I applied, there was only 4 of us out of the multitude that went into the office that day that actually were applying for aircrew - for all forces.

I was the only one that got through.

I know you know how stressful it is going in there and getting through the initial testing, and how damn good it feels when you get through it all.

I had my psych on the same day as all my initial testing, and I can tell you that it was probably the most nerve wracking of all the testing that I had to do that day. The reason being that it was a matter of one person's opinion, not on a standardised number of correctly answered (or indeed just answered) questions.

That was the thing that got me the most.

I was honest, and I will be now too. I don't have the best marks of a pilot applicant, and I am now 25 years old, and about to apply again this April/May. I want this like you wouldn't believe, and I can't possibly intimate to you how much this means to me via the horribly inadequate medium of words.

My advice is, as per above advice, is not only to be honest, but to be honest with yourself. There is a very real possibility that you may be waiting for some considerable time before you get a shot at FSP and Officer Board, so either don't let yourself lose focus, or make sure that there is nothing else that you could want more.

The psychs are there to make sure that you have not only the right motivation for wanting to be there, but are also there to make sure that the Defence Force isn't wasting time and money on people that they can be certain won't make it to the end.
I have heard the opinion that from the moment you walk through the door they are trying to make you fail, and in a sense, this is true.
They don't so much want you to fail, but to find the ones that they can tell will succeed.

If there is one thing that I have noticed in a very large way is that the attitude of those actually in the service is very very supportive of those that are trying for this profession, whereas the attitude of those in the recruiting sections is almost one of indifference.

But that is what they are there to do. They aren't there to pander to you, and gee you up when you feel you can't make it.

One last piece of advice. Talk to as many pilots as you can. They give you advice that is absolutely priceless and that will really give you the best idea of what you are about to undertake.
Depending on your location, it is fairly simple to get access to these guys and they are always happy to see someone else going for Pilot.

As you and I both know, this is the best job in the world.
I will not stop until I am allowed the privelige of wearing the wings, and I pray you don't either.

The very best of luck.

Runaway Gun

12th Feb 2004, 14:04

And if you do want to fly fast jets, study up on their tasks, where they are based and deployed etc. However, they may then show you a photo of a B707, and ask you all about them. So make sure you have an all-round knowledge.

Current affairs is also a big issue, especially when related to current conflicts, defence spending and the defence minister.

Don't bag any type of aircraft, for your interviewer may have flown (and loved) them. Once again, know why you want to join, and have an answer ready for why you don't want to join the airlines. You want to join the airlines in eight years? Keep that one to yourself - I've heard kids announce that pearl.

Find out about MDR - Mental Dead Reckoning. A good pilot instructor should be able to help you on that one. You may be asked a few aviation related mathematics problems, to see how you work under pressure. Your F-111 is being towed down the Amberley runway at 10kts, and is passing the 2000ft to go marker. Will it reach the turnoff at the end of the runway before the Hawk trainer which is 12 miles away doing 360knots flies overhead?
It might not be that exact question :uhoh: but you get the idea. (Don't take a calculator).

Swingwing

13th Feb 2004, 09:15

FTI,

I don't have any specific advice (you sound like you know what you're talking about anyway).

I just wanted to say good luck - with an attitude like that you sound like exactly the sort of person we need.

Don't worry too much about your marks, as long as you meet the minimum standard. Indeed, your academic results sound like they qualify you eminently to be an F-18 pilot! ;-)

SW

FTI

13th Feb 2004, 13:25

Thanks Swingwing..

Good thing that! That's what I am aiming for!!!!
:p :confused:

If you have any further advice for me, I would cherish any possible piece that I could get my hands on.

Please feel free to get me on the PM's if you would have anything that isn't possible to post here. :)

Karhu

14th Feb 2004, 07:40

I'll second the sentiments of FTI, SwingWing. If you have any extra info it'd be great to hear from you here or via PM.

Regards,

Karhu

bodex666

14th Feb 2004, 08:46

Karhu

As what most people have said the biggest way around the psyc is honesty!, honesty! honesty!. Thats there job, to weed out the ones who are insecure and are willing to lie. But you wil probably have noticed that there is more to the interviews than just the psyc theres also the knowledge and maths. Good tip for mutiplications.. Say 14 x 13...mutiply the 4X3 if theres any remainders then add that on to the total of 4+3 and add the first digits. So.. 4X3 = 12..3+4+1(carry the ten remainder)=8 and 1+1 =1 so equals 182..Sorry if im confusing you it took me a while to figure it as well but it takes the pressure of things. Also if you get in to say flight screening be careful, your always been watched! Try to be cool and don't be the odd one out! Also as what happened to me, the psyc had a real go at me for only being 17 and what I was doing away from my mum! But whateva you do don't let it get to you, even if you have the urge to kick his ass after the interview, it's all part of the deal.

Good luck

Bodie

FFP

14th Feb 2004, 16:21

Unless interviewees are expected to know the length of the runway at Amberley then they wouldn`t be asked that question !

ftrplt

14th Feb 2004, 21:10

FFP,

if they are asked that question its to see how they go about the answer; sometimes they just want you to say 'I dont know'.

Its amazing how many people will try and answer it though!

Andrew McKenzie

20th Feb 2004, 22:07

"even if you have the urge to kick his ass after the interview, it's all part of the deal."

I would have given anything to have a guy interview me. (No offence to the ladies out there)

I had one of the cutest RAAF chicks you could possibly imagine. I was like...."sooooo hot. sooooo verrrry verrrry hot. Oh, you asked me a question? Sorry drifted off there for a second."

Well, it was not that bad but you get the point!

With any luck I will be flying on the wing of your Hornet in a few years time.

Also, to any RAAF guys out there, will prior service help my cause? I am joining the reserves and I don't know if I should sign up as a Medical assistant or an Officer. Any ideas?

Runaway Gun

21st Feb 2004, 00:04

Yes I agree with Mr ftrplt, don't be afraid to say "I don't know", but don't say it too much, as it voids the purpose of the interview.

FFP, If you are passing the 2000ft to go marker, the length of the runway behind you is neither here nor there.

Mr McKenzie, if you can't spell Adelaide correctly, please don't pass out my prescriptions. I'd rather you become an Officer and let someone else sort out your syntax errors ;)

As for mathematics preparation, "one in sixty's" are good to learn about, as are some figures relating to Miles per Minute when expressed in Knots. Any problems feel free to PM me.

Andrew McKenzie

23rd Feb 2004, 20:47

"Mr McKenzie, if you can't spell Adelaide correctly, please don't pass out my prescriptions. I'd rather you become an Officer and let someone else sort out your syntax errors"

Sorry dude, I ALWAYS misspell Adel'a'ide like that. I think I try to type faster than I actually should. Believe me, its not dyslexia. (I hope)

Did I mention I was going to join the RAFA and with any luck fly the A/F-18? :D

Runaway Gun

23rd Feb 2004, 21:10

HA! Good to see you have a sense of humour.
Just be careful punching in the co-ordinates of your targets.

Andrew McKenzie

24th Feb 2004, 21:22

I guess having a sense of humour rules me out of all the RAAF Squadrons before I even take a test. :}

But seriously, just for you I will double check the numbers. :ok:

Fox3snapshot

25th Feb 2004, 17:55

Yo Mr McK....what's an A/F18 skuse my ignornance...

:E

Runaway Gun

25th Feb 2004, 18:03

He was displaying a rare sense of humour, regarding his dyslexia not affecting his aircrew selection. I'm sure the board will have a geat laugh...

Ya gotta read back through the threads Fox3 ;)

Andrew McKenzie

25th Feb 2004, 22:04

I was speaking to a doctor and he said that if I actually was, it would be quite easy to spot! yay! ;)

The A/F-18 belongs to the New Zealand AF. Very secritive, none have been seen on the radars for a very long time. :}

The Wizard of Shnoz

18th Jun 2004, 01:34

Having found this old thread and read it from start to finish, I find myself wanting to know what has happened to Hornetboy and his quest to enter the RAAF as a pilot. Can the man himself, or somebody else, enlighten me?

allan907

18th Jun 2004, 02:59

An extremely interesting thread and well done for bringing it back to the surface. Yes, what did happen to the originator?

One thing that has struck me and that is the gulf of difference between the standard of English between modern RAF and RAAF (See Applying for RAF and New Streaming Point threads et al). It speaks volumes for the high standard of Australian education as opposed to the Comprehensive failure in the UK. I speak as a 30 year RAF officer and now a 12 year Australian resident and pilot.:ok:

BEagle

18th Jun 2004, 05:26

You mean that the abysmal txtmsg yoofspeak standards of English haven't been allowed to erode the standards downunder?

Perhaps it's because, unlike in the UK, the trendy-lefties who were responsible for destroying the UK's education system would have bluntly been told to ***k off in no uncertain terms had they dared to suggest such in Oz?

Pass-A-Frozo

18th Jun 2004, 06:08

Ideally, they want all of the above, plus someone who will stay on in the RAAF for as long as possible. I am early in my RAAF flying career and want to stay in as long as I can.

How things change :( . Our "career manager" explained during the DPO brief that you can have two flying tours, and get promoted or get bent.

I think the line was something to the effect "The days of staying flying and being a FLTLT are over unless your an instructor".

Quiet amusing how he tried to make an airline job sound under paid and crap though :8

SOMAT

18th Jun 2004, 09:04

Allan 907

Having read most of the contributions on this thread, I heartily agree with your comment about the comparative standards of English between here and Oz. Some of the grammatical scatology and woeful spelling I see on many UK-produced threads make me cringe. Some contributors, as BEagle indicates, are undoubtedly victims of a system that was supposed to have provided an education; some know better but are too lazy to get it right; and some seem to just revel in being plebeian, or 'cool' as they would undoubtedly see it.

Also, the increasing use of telephone texting may eventually do for us all, Australians included, in that the gibberish used therein will, I fear, become the norm.

Why do we seem determined to destroy what is a beautiful language?!

Rant over.

PS: Any grammatical or spelling errors in the foregoing are rage-induced!!:mad: :mad:

allan907

18th Jun 2004, 10:44

SOMAT/BEagle - Support is gratefully received! I got a fair old savaging from TimeFlies on the 'Applying for the RAF' thread. He seemed to think that woeful English was not a problem and could be corrected much later in the system. Probably right but what a way to start!

I do think that the root of the problem lies with my generation who went to teacher training college and came out with a lot of very funny ideas about edukashun. It's the following generation that has suffered.

Unfortunately, while my comments here about the originator and subsequent contributors hold good, I can see a definite decline in education standards here, along the lines of the UK. Hopefully the military selection system here won't do what the RAF did and bow to the lowest common denominator.

FTI

22nd Jun 2004, 09:37

Indeed.

I am an applicant for the R.A.A.F. for Pilot Selection.

I am in the same position as Hornet Boy was at the beginning of this thread.

I have only just discovered this thread, and like those above me, have only just had the chance to read this from end to end.

I would love to be able to cajole the same contributors to this thread that Hornet Boy did, as I have so many questions...

I am at this point, 25 years of age, and for those among you that are of the British persuasion, the R.A.A.F. has as of the last 18 months reviewed their age for application up to the limit of 43 years of age. This is obviously pending a equitable return of service being able to be negotiated.

If anyone knows any of the members that contributed to this thread in its initial stages, then please please beg them to come back to this thread and lend me some much needed advice.

I have already sat the aptitude testing procedures, passed the medical and psychological testing. Twice.
I have to reapply after I have had the chance to log more hours. I am desperate to make this my life, and I know of no other career that would satisfy me.

I was told just over 12 months ago to go away, log more hours, play a team sport, extend my list of contacts inside the R.A.A.F. and reapply 6 months later.

That was 12 months ago.

I have been asking myself the hard questions after being told no twice. I was calling the recruiting office almost every week to try and glean some information on the progress of my application, and all with no joy. Then I reapply, and I am given advice to come back in 6 months time after being told to do this, that and the other. I cannot even begin to advise you on how frustrating this was, and how demoralising.

Yet, here I find myself, needing advice, moral support, and most importantly of all, to see that my decision to chase this dream to the end of the earth is not a vain pursuit.

I know all that I need to know about training, postings, conversion courses, length etc, but as I have read above on this thread, my case is by no means isolated, nor is it the longest that someone has pursued this dream.

I will not give up, but if anyone can in any way give advice that is specifically pertinent to my situation, then I would be grateful, and in their debt to the end and beyond.

Anything that anyone can add would be of the most heartfelt, respected and appreciated benefit to myself.

I will await most anxiously...

Bzulu

22nd Jun 2004, 11:29

Log more hours? Log more hours doing what?

small_dog

22nd Jun 2004, 12:35

A few years ago, if you were going to apply to join the Australian Defence Force, you already had to have applied for Australian Citizenship (according to the chaps at Defence Plaza, Sydney). This is for someone applying straight off the street with no military experience. Not sure what the situation is now though.

Swingwing

23rd Jun 2004, 03:08

FTI,

I don't normally do this, and I don't have time to type a great big response, but you do sound very sincere.
Also, I don't have a great deal of confidence in the ability of recruiting to give people the best advice these days. It's a long time since I knew any pilots who worked at recruiting. Manpower do their best, but they can't be expected to know what it's really like out there.

You say that you know all you need to know about courses, training etc, and that you need "advice on information ... pertinent to your situation". You don't say exactly what advice you're after though, or what specifically we could help you with.

If you want to PM me, I can probably give you some contact details and we can have a talk. I'm a few years removed from the recruiting process now, but I still remember what it was like to want to do nothing else in life but fly jets in the RAAF. Having been lucky enough to have had that opportunity, I guess the least I can do is to try and help keen people like you with info wherever I can.
Over to you. If you do want to send me a message, please be patient - I don't get on Prune that often these days.

cheers,
Swingwing

FTI

23rd Jun 2004, 04:31

Thanks Swingwing.

Most definitely will send ya a PM.

Bzulu, my apologies also for the lack of detail in my post.

Basically, log more hours flying. I am caught between the devil and the deep blue sea with regard to logging more hours - as you and SW would be well aware, as of as far back as I can remember, if you have over 20 hours of flight time against your name, then upon attending flight screening, you are automatically considered an advanced candidate, tested and marked accordingly.

There is much conjecture about the basic/advanced candidate scheme at PSA, but it seems to me that if you have over 20 hours - indeed 20.1 would suffice - then you will be flying against candidates that have more than one full log book to their name. For mine, and this stems from advice from some that I have spoken to at length on this issue, I believe that it is probably better for my own chances to stay under the 20 hours mark. I base this assumption on two main factors...

1. Despite the literature to the contrary, I am fairly sure that there is a different scale of assessment and marking for Aircrew Applicants with over 20 hours. It is based purely on this figure, and there is no leeway with regard to whether or not you have 20.1, or 500 in the book.

2. I am paranoid that I am not going to be able to compete in this aspect with another applicant with far more hours than myself.

Please feel completely free to correct me if I am in any way wrong, but particularly on the second point, I think about it in the sense that someone who has 70 hours is going to be far more comfortable, and therefore far more competitive in a situation of loss of control (developed spin etc) than someone with 25 or 30 hours. I don't mean for this to sound so subjective, but I use the above example as just that - an example.

I would love to hear from anyone on any point relating to the above, and also if anyone out there has any opinions on my age as a factor in my application - 25 at present, with my birthday in January.

SW, again, thankyou for the opportunity to contact you on the PM'S. I will take that opportunity right now.

Again, thankyou one and all for any advice you can give in advance, and if anyone knows indeed what did happen to HornetBoy, lets hear about him, and where he is at momentarily...

cheers..:ok:

Stupid Boy

23rd Jun 2004, 08:26

Jess, you said that it could be a long wait for an IOT date. You are assuming that he went for an officer type job. He may have done really, really well and be waiting for an ITC date!!

Never assume........:D

Cougar

24th Jun 2004, 04:37

FTI,
I went through the first flight screening course and had 0, zilh, zaninga, zero hours... and passed pilots course successfully. For those on the advanced FS course it didn't matter whether they had 20.1 hours or 3000 as they are not looking at whether you can fly, they are learning at aptitude and learning rate. Trust me, its not a biggy.

Secondly, and more importantly, you have to learn to back yourself. Have some self confidence or you won;t go anywhere fast.

Cheers.

FTI

24th Jun 2004, 11:19

Thanks Cougar.

Its interesting to hear the opinion of someone who passed first go with no hours..

I have spoken to quite a few people regarding this particular issue, and all have agreed that getting as many hours as I can can 't hurt.

I am particularly weary of doing that as, - and I'm sure that you would be able to back me up on this - the military way of flying is going to be vastly different to that of the civilian/CASA way of flying, if you get my point.

I am going to go back to a gentleman at the Flying Club at Amberley. I don't know if you know of whom I speak, but he was an AIRCDRE when he was in, and flew fast jets from the Miracle to the Pig. When I initially saw him about learning to fly, and my reasons, he seemed to be keen to get me up in the air, and see what I was made of.

I know that if I am to learn from this gentleman, then I can be fairly certain that I will be receiving training that can't be too far removed from the way that I can expect to be trained/assessesd by the R.A.A.F.

I would also be very interested to know your opinion on my age at present as a determining factor in my bid to be a Pilot.

And don't be worried about me backing myself in this venture. I know that given the chance, I will be the best damn Pilot wherever I end up, simply because I want to be the best, and nothing less will satisfy me.
I have a dream to live up to, and an obligation to honour the memory of the father of a very close friend who died in the only collision that the Roulettes have ever experienced.
I will not shrink from either.

Thanks again Cougar. Much appreciated. :D

donpizmeov

25th Jun 2004, 19:15

A bit off the the subject...but kind of close...so forgive me please.

Been many moons since I went through the whole process, but number 1 son is now closely approaching the age of reckoning. He is in yr 11 at a QLD school. Can any new(ish) joiners share what kind of marks they recieved in senior to be competitive for selection please .

Also, is all Pilot training for school leavers through ADFA now, or are puke courses still available? (just wondering if I will have to get use to having a college boy in the family if he gets in.....he will be out of the will if he buys the ring though!!!).

Good luck to all...its a great job...great mates...and you will love every minute of it.

Don

FishHead

28th Jun 2004, 03:25

C'mon Don...

It's very well known that you secretly hope that No1 son makes it into ADFA.... lets just hope that he gets his academic skills from Mrs Don!

FH

Cougar

28th Jun 2004, 12:48

fishy: Hows that desk job in sunny CBR going ol' mate?

Don: yes direct entry pilots are still taken by the bucketload - you can keep him in the will for now ;) not all ADFA grads wear rings you know, me being one of them... you would never catch me wearing something as tacky as that.

FTI: its a hard decision with regards to the hours deabte. Many say to get as many as you can, some say to get 0 because you will learn bad habits. From experience, i can say 0 is bad - i really struggled in the first 20 hours of pilots course up to GFPT as i really didn't have any knowledge of even the basics - ie all these guys had 20 hours under their belt and radio calls and emergencies etc were the norm for them - my first emergency went something like this "and practice (throttle being retarded to idle)" - (me shpeeling cxlists but not flying the aircraft) - mate, you will be glad to know your mum will see you soon - at your funeral.

I recommend 20 hours - if you get too many then yes, you will learn habits in flying techniques that will hinder you on pilots course. Seen plenty of guys go through with 500 hours+ civvy but get scrubbed for using "incorrect techniques" ie, they couldn;t get out of their civilian flying habits.

There is only one way to fly in the military, and if you do it any other way you will fail.

In terms of your age, to put it simply, i don't see it as a factor at all - my best mate on course was 28 - an ex techo who re-roled - and he did very well.

As for dealing with the AIRCDRE in Amberley, i think it will be very beneficial to you. I flew with a WGCDR QFI briefly for 3 flights (family friend) before i got in - i didn;t learn how to fly off him but i certainly did get a grasp for 1) the QFI 'quack' and how it sounds and what they expect you to do 2) the no nonsense approach to military flying.

I highly recoomend you do it if you can.
Cheers.

FishHead

29th Jun 2004, 00:25

Cougar - As desk jobs go, it's not bad... no responsibility, full time study, and the opportunity for at least one overseas trip to restock my software and DVD collection (mmmmmm.... roti's)

Surditas

29th Jun 2004, 01:51

It's always good to see an old post return from the dead, as it were. Good to see it's diverged in a few directions, too...

SOMAT, BEagle and Allan907;

How true! The Kids today can be quite trying with their "groovy" text. We had a bit of and English language war whilst on pilots course. No sooner had someone written something up on the whiteboard then everyone else would instantly critique the grammar, spelling and punctuation. Sad I know, (actually, very sad) but I guess it shows recruiting was successful when it was looking for "competitive, young people". I once had a discussion with one of the other guys about the importance of good English (I said it was important, he said it was not). My argument was along the lines that people will judge you by your written style if they have not met you. For example, when I see someone who writes "yo dude u r gr8" (etc) I immediately picture a moron with a back to front baseball cap, white tracksuit driving a Hyundai with more bodykit and stereo than engine. I also think "******", but I have been told I am too judgemental...

FTI;

Your story sounds similar to mine. I applied numerous times and was eventually successful. Just keep bashing away at them. Eventually you will annoy enough people and they will let you in just to shut you up. As for the flying experience I'd say, and there is no right answer here, 20-50 hours would be about right. Any less and you'll be like Cougar fighting to catch up, any more and you'll be spending your time eradicating civvy habits. Still, there are exceptions.

I'd also like to know what became of the originator of this thread.

FTI

29th Jun 2004, 08:53

Loveyawork Itchybum.

Yeah, I am very well aware that we Aussies can be rather lax with our grammar, language, spelling etc.

It comes from not caring too much about what every other person thinks. That said, there is a level of personal pride that should be taken with what one puts on a public/semi-private forum. Perception is reality.

Also, for your input into my quest. Thankyou, and to all those above Itchy that posted. Your advice is timeless, and invaluable. I cannot begin to tell you how much your advice has helped me just in the last two weeks to know how close I am to being completely successful in this pursuit. I have the drive, the desire and the ability. All I now need is the hours in the log book (and not in the logbook - thanks for that advice to whomever it was that gave it, sorry I can't remember while typing this...), the team sport and the contacts within the R.A.A.F. and possibly the Cadet framework.

I have by no means given up. I will keep all posted over the course of my next application how I go, so as to give you some results of your advice, and how well taken it was and will be.

Regards to all.
Update you soon.

FTI

Kev Rivkin

30th Jun 2004, 01:50

FTI, congrats on passing the med and psych, however, you are looking at the next stages in too fine a degree of detail.

Firstly, flying hours. The recruiters are not looking at your flying hours in any other sense than how it indicates your motivation to FLY, so demonstrate that by flying as much as possible. Any different scaling that they may apply to pilots with more than 20 decimal 000 hours will not adversely affect an applicant who actually uses his/her extra few hours of experience to achieve the higher standard, so DO NOT UNDERRATE YOURSELF !

Their suggestion that you come back in six months or six months more is a measure of how their recruiting cycle works, not their assessment of how long it should take you to get up to scratch ("the next bus leaves at 0900, but how long it takes you to earn the bus fare is up to you").
I suggest that you do the same thing as are they, that is to look at you, yourself, as an entire picture, and then expose yourself to a range of productive experiences that will later lead to their correct assessment that you will be a valuable RAAF Officer and Pilot after Pilot's Course. A two-three year timeframe may be appropriate depending on what you decide.

Playing team sports, etc ? A good suggestion but it may disregard the fact that people play sports according to preference not necessity. They may be saying that you need to practice fitting into a group, however another way to this end is doing amateur boxing. Here, you would be in a club where you get to know a lot of people very well because you are always hitting each other, you are competing against other clubs, your fitness level is at the highest of any sport, and of most relevance, boxing adds a solidity to your character and confidence that is not available in other sports - you will realize that there are dumb footy players but there are no dumb boxers J.

Again, it's incorrect to see success in your path through the selection process requiring you to worry about every fine detail needed to thread your way through some impossible maze at the end of which is the realization of that which you have dreamed.
Rather, concentrate on truly knowing yourself through the objective achievement of hard physical and intellectual goals; the most useful of the latter being leadership roles where understanding of yourself and others will come by the bucket load and not according to your own timetable and preferences.

Good luck ! Nothing beats that first time looking out on the wing and seeing a Red Rat !
I hope I haven't cut too close to the bone but if I have then get over it.

I haven't seen this thread for 2.5 years. I posted then, above, as Rene Rivkin, until the real Rene (enjoy Silverwater Jail, idiot) found out and made PPrune change the name, so now I guess I'm Rene's law-abiding twin brother ! I too would like to know what happened to Hornetboy, and what some of the other (by now well traveled and dusty ..) RAAF dudes like Trashy and Surditas have been up to !
Allan907, you should just see some of the stuff that gets written on Oz civvy pilot's job applications…

allan907

30th Jun 2004, 02:19

Kev Rivkin

Hope that you have enough for the bus fare to the jail each week to see your bro'! Or has he managed to pull another flanker, or put a bung in the right trouser pocket, and even now is doing penance in a multi-million dollar hovel somewhere?

I can quite believe you about the civilian pilot applications. I am in that world now and fully understand. What I was getting at was the comparison between the RAAF and RAF. The standard of English for the RAAF (or RAAF wannabee's), as evidenced on this thread, seems to be immeasurably higher than that for the RAF.

I still have problems coming to terms with a post made by a character calling himself 'Flyer1997'. He is obviously a pilot under training at RAF Valley in North Wales and starts his post off with "There is a rumer at Vally". Ye Gods! If the system in the UK is so bankrupt with basic education - or that the RAF selection system is so desperate for commissioned officers that they have to stoop that low - then I give in. The only up side to the whole thing is that, by and large, when the chips are down the modern generation is able to step up to the crease just as well as their forebears in Vietnam, Korea, WW2, WW1, Boer War, Agincourt etc.

[SIZE=1]Apologies to all those living veterans whose campaign I may have missed [/SIZE=1]:ok:

Surditas

30th Jun 2004, 03:06

Itchy,

Funny you should talk about intelligence. I've met some not so bright people who express themselves very well and some intelligent people who have dreadful diction and expression. I don't believe I am alone in assuming someone is a moron if they display poor grammar, punctuation and spelling, either that or laziness. Still, Allan907 is spot on when he says the young folk stand up when called. You'd be hard pressed to criticise the way the guys (and girls of course!) are going about things over in the Sandpit.
Anecdotal evidence, but backed up by quite a bit of experience, in the military flying schools shows that military pilots need to be intelligent, but not too intelligent. The usual example is engineers, who fail pilots course at a higher rate then non-engineers because engineers are trained to analyse problems in detail. eg:
Situation: your aeroplane is on fire.
Non-engineer reaction: "Hmm, I think I'll eject. Yes, that sounds like a good idea. Those flames a rather big and scary"
Engineer reaction: "Ah, a fire!. Well now, that's very interesting. I wonder if is the turbine, or the oil supply or maybe some bleed air? Of course, it could be a false indication. No, there seem to be large flames coming out of the cowling. Of course, that could be from something else and maybe the engine is fine. And what an engine it is! There little turbo-props are just sensational! Lightweight, powerful, not really prone to catching fire..."
I've overdone it a bit, but you get the idea.
As for DE vs Academy, aside from not having a degree, you don't seem to be too disadvantaged by going DE. You can't sit around the crewroom reliving your days back in the Div or go "Shazaam!", but the career people don't discriminate against you if you are DE. You even have some advantages, as in four and a half years in a SQN as a PLTOFF thence FLGOFF where you are given zero responsibility and not expected to do anything sensible except fly aeroplanes. You even only get given secondary duties that aren't that important and no-one cares about.

Kev Riv: Are you serious? I imagine you are because your name has been changed.

Kev Rivkin

30th Jun 2004, 13:51

Allan, they may be able to stand up to the crease, however they won't know much about the wars you mentioned because History is taught about as well as Grammar. Brother Rene is still getting a new brain turmor every Friday afternoon just before weekend detention is due to start.

Surditas, how are you 2.5 years later ? Yes, I'm serious because it worked for me, although spending five hours a week hitting people can cause one to instead aspire to an Army career and disregard Knuck-ism.
The point is that an individual's motivation and valid self confidence are big winners in a gregarious but stressed group environment, and can be generic solutions to a multitude of different problems.

FTI

3rd Jul 2004, 01:15

Thankyou Kev.

So sorry to hear about your kin. So sad, yet so wealthy.

You could almost afford to buy yourself a Pig if you believe Rene's own press releases!!:p

Seriously though, I value your input into this situation. Thankyou, and I am not in the least worried about your post cutting too close to the bone - I am willing to do whatever I have to to win the day in this endeavour!
I will be reapplying as soon as I can log some more hours. I have just changed employment, and have also gained a position as a Paintball/Skirmish refereee on the weekends! Money for flying now nowhere near an issue with regards to being able to afford it. Good fun as a Ref, working with an ex super-trooper, and a fantastic environment to learn how to keep your head in a situation of extreme pressure. Not sure if the recruiting boys would look at this as a valid "team" exercise though. Part of my employment is that I must acquire a firearms license. Part of this is training in simulation exercises with a small team rescuing hostages etc.
As mentioned, good fun, good character training, but maybe not a team sport as such in the eyes of the recruiters...

Next time Rene decides to get an attack of the clots in the Cebrebral region, take him boxing - give him a real one to ponder over... Sorry...

Thanks again Kev, and all above.

:O

speed2height

3rd Jul 2004, 11:10

Kev, I think Surditas went overseas as I saw a couple of posts on the "Fun and Games in the Magic Kingdom" thread (Saudi Arabia).

Hornetboy if you get accepted you'll be bumping into me at Tamworth.

Surditas

5th Jul 2004, 23:12

I DID go overseas last year, but it was on deployment to the MEAO which is (thankfully) not Saudi. Back again now in sunny Oz.
Kev, things are going well with me. Career is humming along and I'm getting plenty of flying. What else does one need?

The Wizard of Shnoz

9th Jul 2004, 11:00

Since I last posted on this thread I have managed to get through the Assessment Day stage of the selection process. The Pilot Testing, medical and Defence Interview were ok but the Psych hammered me for over an hour and a half. However, I have been recommended for the next stage and was wondering how long it normally takes to get onto Flight Screening? I understand that not everybody who has got this far even gets a shot and that the time can vary between these stages, but am just after a general idea.

Also, what sort of notice does one get between "You are joining Course X at time Y" and time Y?

Thanks.

Coran

9th Jul 2004, 13:09

Out of curiosity The Wizard of Shnoz, what was the Pilot Testing like? What did it consist of?

Cheers,
Coran

Hornetboy

10th Jul 2004, 03:33

G’day guys,

So sorry for not replying sooner but I haven’t been perusing the boards of PPRUNE as often lately, and in fact only caught this thread by chance. I decided I would take a day before posting a reply so I could gather my thoughts before blabbering pointlessly. Forgive me if I still do ;)

I’ll try and keep the life story as short and un-complicated as possible. I re-did my tests one year later, having done my Night VFR for some instrument practice, among other things. Got through the aptitudes this time, which felt great. Only had to do the pilot specific tests this time. Then the psych, again, was a really nice person - no grilling, no excessive probes, etc. The Defence Officer asked me vastly the same questions as the psych and seemed to be happy enough. Then came the medical and the doc was also a great bloke, very supportive. But due to a medical issue I was medically “pending” till the specialist examinations. As it worked out, I was accepted for FSP, but was scheduled for specialist medical assessments before that. And shortly after getting the call of acceptance for FSP, I got a letter of rejection based on a specialist report.

Disappointing? Yes. Guts ripped out? Absolutely. But then I got the chance to travel across the world for almost a year, and I truly cherish that experience, along with the rest of my university experience; couldn’t imagine having missed all that. I’m now one semester from completing my degree, having stuck it out after all. And I now realise how unprepared I really was 2 and a half years ago. I have learnt that the good Lord (personal belief) knows time a lot better than I do. And all this time also allowed me to gather a lot of information and come up with a plan of action. I have just recently lodged an appeal as a starting point.

That brings me back to the present. Sorry, no big news yet. But I’m hanging onto the dream. And to the guys in my situation, especially those that have already tried a few times like FTI...yeah it does get hard sometimes. There have been times when everything seems too hard and the dream just seems like too much trouble. But you really need to gain perspective. I’ve been honoured to meet and learn from people from all corners of the globe. But as I’ve listened intently to their stories, one recurring thing that pi**es me off the most is hearing so many people say, “Sure I dreamed of doing that, but I didn’t think I could have made it, so I did this instead.” And to some degree I understand where they’re coming from, but it pi**es me off. Wherever you’re from, whatever the dream, remarkable people seem to give in all too easily, not fully realising that you only get one go at life. And if you’re not pushing for every moment of it to be the very best it can be, then you’re wasting it.

If I get in the RAAF, I’ll give it everything, but if I don’t, at least I’ll know I’ve exhausted every single avenue and fought every battle. Thanks to Cougar and Rivkin and Surditas and Trash and everyone who gave me pearls, and yeah, I’m still working on things.

Cheers and don't hesitate to PM :ok:

FTI

10th Jul 2004, 08:42

HEY GREAT TO SEE YA BACK HORNETBOY!

And great to see that you are not giving up after all that.

I sure as hell won't be...

To everyone who is contributing to this post, on behalf of HornetBoy and myself, thankyou. For every last piece of advice, respect, encouragement and belief, thankyou.

Surditas, yes I did mean Cat A, B, C or D. My apologies. And how was MEAO for getting shot at in the Herc?

Good to see one of our own coming back safe and sound from all that. Then again, all of ours did. Just goes to show you why we keep trying to get in.

The best in the world? Gee, I wonder...

:ok: :O

Capt Claret

14th Jul 2004, 03:34

Coran

Congrats on passing the last stage.

Good luck with the next!

:ok:

Cheers,
Clarrie

Coran

14th Jul 2004, 10:04

Thanks Clarrie!

olena, I sat the initial aptitude tests a fortnight ago and just passed the pilot testing today. I have my assessment day (interviews, medical etc) in another two weeks, then take it from there.

I wish you the best of luck in getting to where you want to be.

Cheers,
Coran

The Wizard of Shnoz

14th Jul 2004, 11:11

Coran,

Sorry for my tardiness in replying - I guess you didn't need my advice! Well done and good luck with the interviews.

Olena,

You mentioned that you started the process again in May and only just received an invite to FSP. My question is, did you do the pilot specific testing in May aswell? I'm just trying to get an idea of how long I could be waiting.

Surditas

15th Jul 2004, 03:50

The MEAO was a great experience.

I've been thinking a bit lately about the fact that when I joined (five or so years back) that they (recruiting, psych, board etc) asked me questions along the lines of "So, if Australia went to war, what would you think." Of course, I gave the standard reply "Signed on the dotted line blah blah duty blah blah mine is not to reason why blah blah" which seemed to keep everyone happy. Whilst answering the question I was thinking "Go to war? No chance in the world is Australia going to be at war in my lifetime." Events have proved me wrong. I know that all of my mates who joined prior to Sep 11 didn't think they'd be in a shooting war, either. That's not to say people are upset about it. Quite to the contrary, I think most people in the ADF have had a good time at the war. After all, it's why we joined, even if we never thought it would happen.
I'm interested to know what people joining today think of the question "So, if Australia went to war..."

olena

16th Jul 2004, 02:28

Coran, were you told how well you went, or it was just a pass/fail?
Thanks :) feel free to pm me if you have any Q's about interviews, and good luck with them.

Wizard,

because i did initial aptitude assessment last year- i didn't have to re-sit those. so my process may have been somewhat different and i think they changed some things anyway. last year it was about 2 weeks between initial aptitude and pilot testing.
this year i did pilot testing i think on 28th April and then interviews/medical on 10th may.
I didn't get an invite to FSP, i understand it's a generic letter sent to all applicants for their FSP preferences before their file gets sent off. Have you received any communication at all since your interview? did you provide passport photos on initial application, because otherwise they should have contacted you, at least about changing recruitment office premises (if you're in VIC).
Depending on whether you're applying DEO or ADFA, there are something like 14 FSP course until the end of this year, with 7 to 9 candidates chosen for each. this is from memory, figures may vary.

as i understand, the time will vary depending on how good your score was and how strong the recommendation- i.e. whether you're on the top of the pile at FSP paper selection board or not. if you are, then the next few courses are quite soon; if not- well, keep your fingers/toes crossed that your file floats up to the top somehow.

if you'll have any more inside info, do share!

Surditas,
my psych looked at me more intently i think when asking that Q. my reply was somewhat similar to yours, i.e. i don't particularly have any desire to kill anyone, but blah blah duty, defending my country, rather have active role.. etc. yes, i've held a gun, no i won't faint when i see one. yes i'm aware i may have to fire it.

response to Mum - "they won't send me, i'm a girl" (ha!)

response to self/your Q - i still don't think that there'll be a "real war"- i.e. involving Australia on its own turf and to full capacity, meaning that if i'm in the pilot's seat, most danger i'll be in would be coming from my own incompetence and our allies' ..(i'm not aware of any OZ choppers down in afganistan/iraq) i may be proven wrong, as you were.

wouldn't want to really (be proven wrong, or kill if am) ...

a friend was deployed to afganistan, had a blast. can't say i'm joining for the war though. for me it's a possible price to pay.

Surditas

16th Jul 2004, 04:30

I wouldn't define a real war only as one on home turf with the ADF fully commited. Iraq's a pretty real war. There's a C130H with a bullet hole in it to prove that. And I think the Army boys in-country think it's pretty real
Just because no Aussies have been killed yet doesn't mean that some people over there aren't trying to very hard to kill us.
I hope your mum realises that being female only excludes you from combat in the Infantry in the ADF. RAN ships have female sailors and RAAF aircraft have female aircrew who have most certainly been sent to the Stan and to the Sandpit.
It's good that you realise that you could go to war. There is NO POINT joining the ADF if you would refuse to serve in combat.

olena

16th Jul 2004, 06:13

Surditas,
i apologise, the implication i made is unjust. the thought process in my head was evaluating potential vs actual risk - whilst there are plenty of people trying to kill you, the chances of survival, at least statistically-wise aren't that unfavourable. and to quote you- "most people <..> have had a good time". that's what i was referring to mostly, and once again, i'm truly sorry if i offend.

and my reference to "real" war was fuelled by grandparents' actual experiences in WW2, in former Soviet Union, as compared to stories of fun and occassional afgani encounters of previously mentioned friend. NOT diminishing the loss of life in Iraq and the A-Stan.

i sure hope my mum DOESN'T realise that!! i wouldn't want to deal with that any earlier than i had to!! (if i had to)

CAN you refuse? i was under the impression that it is a condition of entry, that you understand and agree to serve, if required.

FTI

16th Jul 2004, 09:17

Surditas.

As I have had much time to think about the alternatives to this line of employment - indeed grade 5 it was when I knew that I wanted to do this - I have had much opportunity to also ponder this very point.

It is, I believe different for every person. Olena has been able to be living evidence of this.

For myself, I would not hesitate. There is a knowledge that goes along with "...signing on the dotted line...". I have not had the opportunity. Yet.
The knowledge that I speak of is, for me, the complete and utter conviction that, if I was asked, and if I had to, I would give everything that I had, including my life to defend the way of life that I know, and that the ones I love know.

This extends to all current deployments - both acknowledged and disavowed. In each and every conflict, there is an interest that is uniquely Australian, and undeniably so. This may not be so apparent to those that don't serve, or have the desire to serve, yet it is those same people that would come running to the ADF if the values we stand up for now in all conflicts we are involved in were degraded, made extinct and opposing values put in their place.

The catch cry would be; "...and the ADF did what to protect us from this???!!!!..."

I digress.

The answer to your question goes a little something like this...

I would be there, with bells on. I am NOT a war-monger, and I do apologize if I have portrayed myself as one, or have introduced doubt of my intentions within the R.A.A.F. by being honest about my feeling towards this sticking point.

In my opinion, the reason that every single person is in the ADF is to be the first, the last, and every person in between that will stand up for our people.

And stand up without question, or hesitation.
No exceptions.

I will not comprimise my point of view on this, as it is one of the major reasons that I have always known that I want to follow this path. If it happens, I will be there.

And heaven help anyone that stands against me, or stands in my way.

Again, my sincerest apologies to anyone and everyone if this point of view, or this conviction that I am proud to call my own is offensive, or derogatory in any way, or is perceived to be in any form.

All that said, I have no doubt that we have the BEST defence force in the world. Bar none.
That is a very comforting thought when considering being in the business of defending one's own country.

That's it. Soapbox away now...

;)

Surditas

16th Jul 2004, 10:33

Olena,

Don't worry. Not offended. I see your distinction, though. Both the Sandpit and Germany vs. Soviet Union are/were "real" wars. The German/Soviet one was, of course much, much, much bigger (on the question of scale, destruction and loss of life, you almost cannot compare the two). What makes both of them "real" is in both cases people are/were killing each other. No-one said you can't have fun, though.
You probably can refuse to be deployed, but I should imagine it would be a career killer, not to mention you could get charged. I haven't heard of anyone refusing to go. Quite the opposite, everyone was/is quite keen.

FTI,

You're right. Everyone has their own reasons for joining. What matters most though is how you do your job when it matters.

3(F)Sqn

16th Jul 2004, 12:57

Hi,
I'm new to this forum, yet seeing this post encouraged me to join!
I'm 18 and have just got through to OASC at Cranwell!

I think its great to be interested at 15, but I suggest you keep other options open! I've wanted to be a pilot for as long as I can remember, but am now at the stage where the government is hardly encouraging recruiting for pilots and even if I get through OASC, I may not be in IOT till late next year following the cancellation of 2 IOTs!

Join ATC if you can, however, D of E and things like that are just as good, proving you're a team player (excuse the cliche phrasing we've all reapeted heard in recruitment advertising!) Another bonus is if you can get some hours, it is, however, very expensive! If not fixed wing, try gliding!

Keep us posted
3(F)Sqn

olena

16th Jul 2004, 22:15

if i could please amend my original statement to- "i don't think that there'll be a *large-scale* war including australia". i answered the original question in terms of perceived danger to my persona only. not what i would think of politics - whether it's right or wrong, whether i'd have moral issues following orders, etc. that i can only hypothesize on and it's an endless debate.
i'll try to refrain from exhibiting the foot-in-mouth syndrome.

i suppose you may have some individuals joining the forces for training/money and not realising the implications of their decision? i can't see many cases of that, although, human stupidity is a widespread disease...

As per fun- you are right, after all, a cousin's grandparents met in a nazi concentration camp, so it can't ALL have been that bad :E
black humour aside, my credibility on anything in that field is lacking. what we were taught as part of soviet patriotism (and what to do with undetonated missiles or the enemy spies, not that we found any), and what i've personally heard from guys from soviet/afgan and russian/chechen wars... i've been sheltered from all that and any passionate stand of mine hasn't yet stood the test of reality. Thus i apply great (hopefully healthy) dosages of cynicism to any potential passionate outbursts of mine. one day- i may speak from experience. i doubt there'll be any less cynisism then though. (especially considering how so much of what i learnt already about things like birthcountry, the great Stalin, communism etc turned out to be true)

i'm more inclined in the peaceful application of my (hopefully) talents, such as the great part our Navy aviation has in SAR, firefighting, peacekeeping / border control operations to name a few. PLEASE don't mistake this for a desire to do the easy jobs and hide in the trenches when **** hits the fan. how the hell can i become the best then? ;) on a more serious note, i see more good being done in there, especially how it's now a *relatively* peaceful time.

Surditas, well said. thank you.

i hope i've explained my stand a bit more clearly this time. my convictions do not lack strength. i merely allow that in my life i could NOT have seen and understood enough to say that i know all and that what i know and believe will never change. not to say that my morals are subject to flunctuations!! * insert disclaimer*

FTI

17th Jul 2004, 07:43

Olena.

No danger of you being misunderstood herein. It is very heartening to see someone else who is just as well aware of the implications of being in the ADF and what it means in our current political and military climate.

Don't worry in the least Olena. Good to see that there is no shortage of willing and ready individuals to take up the offer to defend and protect this country and its interests.

No misunderstanding interpreted...

:O:ok:

Coran

29th Jul 2004, 06:12

olena,

I was just told pass/fail. Nothing more specific.

On another note, I've just completed my assessment day and passed through that. Now it's a matter of waiting (and hoping) for an invite to attend Flight Screening at Tamworth.

Coran

FTI

2nd Aug 2004, 10:24

Hey Coran...

If you are successful, do you think that you would be able to keep us updated as often as was convenient for you while you are down there??? I am very keen to get as much inside info as I can on that place, as decent and current reports are so hard to come by...

If you could find the time, that would be priceless info. I am very well aware that they are very very wary of too much info getting out about the course. After all, it is a competitive environment, and they don't want anyone getting too ahead of themselves before attending.

Fair enough I say, but anything that you think could/would be of use/assistance to myself and all other hopefuls who are both watching and contributing to this thread would be absolutely priceless.

Thankyou in advance for anything that you could do for us.

Coran

3rd Aug 2004, 08:47

FTI,

If I am successful in making it to Tamworth then I'd be happy to give updates while I'm there, without breaking any rules of course.

Coran

havick

3rd Aug 2004, 08:57

Coran,

Likewise, I passed all my testing, psych, defence interview etc..

Hope to see you there soon.

PPRuNeUser0172

5th Aug 2004, 10:10

Go and see your Training and Development Flight or FDS or whatever they are called these days, they should sort out interview techniques and have loads of good gen for you.

Speak to your JEngO, he should point you in the right direction as a starter. Also might be worth contacting a base which does the type of flying you want to end up doing if you aren't already at one and see if you can have a visit - get it from the horses mouth etc.

The best practice for Aptitude tests is to do loads of Speed/Distance/Time type stuff, there are probably some good books out there that people can suggest?

Good luck

DS

The Wizard of Shnoz

5th Aug 2004, 10:18

Since it sounds like there are a few of us up to the same stage I thought it would be good to see just how long some others have played the waiting game for the call up the Flight Screening.

Anybody care to share their experiences?

Thanks.

Wiz

Hornetboy

5th Aug 2004, 12:53

Wow this thread just keeps getting revived!

I'll briefly share what I can remember about my acceptance from last year. It took around 3 weeks after successful Stage 1 testing before I received those letters asking about my FSP and service preferences. Then it was another 2/3 weeks before I got a call up from a lady at Tamworth asking when I could come up. (I was quite vague in filling out my FSP course preference form and was just short of writing "ASAP" on it...come to think of it, I might have written that somewhere on the form.) The next available course for me was set for about a month later. But, as you know, there was an unfortunate interruption in that time.....

But total time was going to be about 2.5 months from end of Stage 1 to beginning of FSP...and that's about as efficient as I've ever seen them, seeing as I was just told today that the ADFRC only "received" my appeal on the 31st July......when in fact I had sent it out mid-June. B*gger, Australia Post must have dropped their standards.

Great to see so many hopefuls, and if I may take a bite out of the pie, Havick and Coran, and Wizard and FTI, if and when you guys get there, please do give us some details. PM if you feel that is more appropriate. It would be fantastic to set up some sort of mini network. It's all about teamwork, right? :ok:

albert the first

5th Aug 2004, 18:08

As Dirty Sanchez says go and visit different sqn and go flying with them. This gives loads of benefits:

a, it's a good tick in the box at OASC when they say what have you done to find out about your chosen NCA trade, it shows you have got off you ar$e and done something

b, you can get some really good flying out of it (I flew the low level heli lanes in London in a Puma, and it was outstanding), and if you are really luck you can come and fly on a mighty Herc (K of course)

c, you may find out you hate it and its not for you

d, you may find out you love it and it will give you that little push to try a little harder when things start not going you way

and

e, its better than free because the air force will pay you travel cost etc. (which I suppose is free before anyone starts getting clever)

I did it a few years ago and it is the best thing, air force wise (just in case my wife reads this), I have done.

Also girls love flying suits as we all know :ok:

Get your head in the newspapers and get a good idea of what is going on in the world and in the UK.

All the best M8

ATF

havick

15th Aug 2004, 11:41

Hey all,

Spoke to BAE systems in Tamworth, there is only two more FPS between now and the end of the year.

FTI

16th Aug 2004, 11:38

Hey Havick...

Did they give you dates???:confused:

olena

17th Aug 2004, 23:07

well, technically it's three but the next one starts on 21 August.
ADFA entry has 8 more FSP's till the end of the year.
as for DEO/SSO
16 Oct-04 - 30 Oct 7 spots and
30 Oct-04 - 13 Nov 8 spots.

has anyone else been told how many files were sent off to Tamworth from your recruiting unit?

acey

18th Aug 2004, 01:12

Hi all,

I managed to get through the aptitude testing and am booked in for pilot testing next month. I am after some info on the pilot testing.

I have read about 'following a dot on the screen' and the obvious accurately reading aircraft instrumentation.

Any info/advice would be greatly appreciated!

Here's my story:
I have wanted to fly jets since I was little, however my eyesight isn't the best as I wear contacts/glasses.

I have tried to get in twice before since 1999 but i was told laser was not being accepted. Recently I read laser may be accepted, so I called up and they confirmed. I am going to see an Opthamolgist soon (as asked by nurse on JOES day).

I am looking at natural methods of eyesight correction and am willing to undergo laser to have a chance at getting into the defence forces.

At the moment, I'm studying aerspace eng and flying on side - almost got my PPL. I'm hoping to attain my dream one day and have researched alternatives such as flight test engineering.

Have read this thread with great interest - good luck to everyone and never ever give up.

Arm out the window

19th Aug 2004, 07:42

Further to my last quick off-the-cuff remark, which I stand by, I would add that getting other people's opinions is fine, but look in your heart, temper it with what you have seen already and make up your own mind.

I can only speak about the RAAF, not the RAF, but would suggest the basics are similar.
Talk to 10 people and you'll get a confusing range of attitudes which are all about how they feel they have been treated during their service. Fundamentally, if you remain positive you will tend to have positive experiences.

Think about it; many people would give their left proverbial to fly military aircraft, and the training is excellent. So even with low flying hours on some types, and some military illogicalities to put up with sometimes, to do that is to do something really good; plus when you get out you have well respected credentials because the taxpayer has spent a million on you (not sure how many pounds you guys estimate to train an RAF pilot, but must be a goodly amount!).

In the end it's up to you to decide to apply or not - obviously getting in is another thing, but really wanting to do it is a good starting point.

havick

27th Aug 2004, 22:51

ACEY,

Did you apply for ADFA or DEO entry?

acey

30th Aug 2004, 12:39

havick,

I applied for DEO - already have a degree and 1/2 way through a 2nd one so don't really need a 3rd one!

Besides, from what i hear any kind of aviation degree is pretty useless - you are better off getting something else.

But.. if I was just coming out of yr. 12 and was given the oppourtunity to do the bach. technology (aviation) through ADFA I would take it...

havick

31st Aug 2004, 05:38

ACEY,

yeah, i also applied for DEO. What date did they give you for FSP? I am in the middle of an aviation engineering short course for my LAME subjects at the moment so i can add so i couldn't put in any preferences until that finishes end of next month. Should be on the november course though from what I have been told.

Which service did you apply for? ARMY, NAVY or AIR FORCE?

Well good luck, let me know how you go.

acey

1st Sep 2004, 03:54

hey all,

Had my pilot specific testing today and I found it quite difficult, especially the maths, fuel, distance, time calcuations and hand-eye co-ordination tasks.

Also as I was doing the tests I questioned whether I knew exactly was required, which obviously may have brought down my results if I was doing the wrong things!

Unfortunately I did not meet the requirements for a pilot, and they offered me air defence instead, to which I declined.

Next shot at passing pilot testing is in 12 months, and I can only attempt this a total of 3 times.

It is very disappointing and I will be applying for my results through 'freedom of information' to try and work on the particular areas.

Good luck to anyone in the process - I would be happy to supply details of the test (don't have the time to post it right now... maybe some other time)

The Wizard of Shnoz

1st Sep 2004, 07:11

Has anybody received an invite for either of the Oct/Nov DEO/SSO FSP's? If not, when would we expect to have heard by? Gotta love this waiting game!

Hornetboy

1st Oct 2004, 17:11

Hey guys,

I thought I'd post again as I have some information that may be of use, and also wanted to let everyone know that I'm back in the race now. My appeal was cleared. I could hardly believe it but they're willing to take a chance for now I guess. Worth the wait after all :)

Uhh Acey, did you get a chance to see that opthalmologist before getting the cut? For Acey and anyone else interested, I have been given a form titled "Information for ADF Candidates - Refractive Surgery". It's not a terribly detailed document and leaves a lot to be questioned. But as a summary aircrew applicants can have LASEK and PRK. Non-aircrew applicants can have LASEK, PRK, and LASIK. And it's important to note that pre-operative limits of -5 dioptres myopia and +7 dioptres hypermetropia apply. Any questions please PM and I'll try to help with what else I know.

Anyway I went for renewal testing earlier this week as my medical/psych/Defence Officer interviews had lapsed +12 months (aptitudes remain for 3 years). And just received the FSP preference form. I'll post that off Monday and join the ranks of those in waiting. Hopefully I'll get reselected. Right now trying to get fit and mentally prepare for the dreaded OSB. I'm on a hunt for anyone out there who has gone through the OSB and can possibly describe it. Especially looking for tips on how not to be intimidated by four officers looking down on you from larger seats, with, quite obviously, the intention of intimidating you. Oh the thought of it.....

:O

TJF

3rd Oct 2004, 04:46

Haven't posted before but I can feel your pain. I went through FSP in May this year and got a Not Yet 12, so currently just doing what I can to improve my chances for when I go back for the OSB again early next year. Would be happy to share any info with you as the more you know now the less you have to worry about when you're down in Tamworth, and there is a lot to learn down there! For short anyway, know your general history of RAAF and aviation, also current ADF events (postings, aircraft upgrades, purchases etc.), why you want to be a pilot and an officer, why they want you. Just read as much and know as much as you can before you go down there. That means that you can then concentrate on the flying (OSB doesn't matter if you don't do well in your flying first!). Anyway ask me what you like, I don't mind sharing the wealth. However, they treat everyone differently and will find your weaknesses and strengths easily. Oh yeah, and in the OSB, the three officers are kids stuff compared to the psych.

L J R

3rd Oct 2004, 20:33

As someone who has sat on a RAAF pilots board, may I suggest that TJF has some good advice.

.

havick

12th Oct 2004, 11:53

G'day everyone,

Just to let you all know how long the waiting game is, I just got called up yesterday and offered a spot on the 30th Oct - 13th Nov FSP. SO that's about a 3 - 4 month wait or so from the time you finish your psych, defence interview etc.... Also, that is only approx 2 - 3 weeks notice that you have been offered a place on the course before it starts.

If anyone else has been offered a place on the course please post a reply.

Cheers,
Havick.

olena

9th Nov 2004, 01:10

Hey havick, congrats on being invited to FSP and good luck getting through!!

no, i haven't heard anything, but to be honest i don't think i stand much chance this year, not with how i went in the tests/interview. but it's not too far from my 12 months lapsing and this time round.... :ok:

havick

13th Nov 2004, 11:23

Thanks olena,

Just finished FSP yesterday, all seven of us on our course got recommended. Hopefully (fingers, toes, arms etc.. crossed) I will be recieving an offer within the next few weeks for a start date in the middle of Jan.

I do know that they are running 2 more FSP's between now and the end of the year but I think they are for ADFA.

Good Luck.

P.S. Hornetboy also got reccomended.

havick

3rd Dec 2004, 15:02

Just trying to keep this thread alive,

As posted before, any other applicants starting OTS or NEOC early 2005?

olena

8th Dec 2004, 00:37

well, now i have a legitimate excuse to resurface this thread again- i've been invited today for the first FSP in 2005.

Anyone else got the call?

i suppose it's back to the books now for me :D

and if i can collectively ask those of you already having been to FSP for permission to PM you with a few questions - thanking you in advance!

(what a difference to the day one phonecall makes!!! and it's even miles away from a job offer!)

Hornetboy

9th Dec 2004, 14:51

Olena,

Congratulations! I know the feeling ;)

Of course I'm willing to help ya out, as people on here have helped me in the past, but there are limits as to exactly what we can answer, as we were all warned about divulging information online.

I've been mostly staying off PPRUNE lately for that reason, but now would be a good time to say a big thank you to all the people who contributed to this thread to give me some of the best advice anyone could hope for. If you guys are reading, Surditas, Trash 'n' Navs, Cougar, Scran, and especially Rene/Kev Rivkin - I printed out your advice and lived it out. Also should thank an anonymous Sqdn Leader for advising me through all the way.

Now comes the hard bit I suppose :)

olena

16th Dec 2004, 20:46

Guys, thanks once again!!

just 3 weeks to go and i'm looking forward to posting here again. (and doing my best so that i actually do so bursting with joy rather than self-pity)

just one more (extended) question - i am applying for the navy, having the other two as second preferences. Up to this point i haven't really researched them knowing quite strongly that i really only want to go navy (and posting on a RAAFie thread, :E ).
A good point has been raised that since the basic training is the same for all, it may make more sense to take whichever offer i may get and then transfer.

those that i've spoken to haven't indicated any difficulties in changing over. Would anyone here disagree with that?
and should i expect many questions at the OSB on the other services?

the more i find out the more i am assured that there isn't much else that i would want to do with my life, and it is an awesome feeling!! :8

Bzulu

17th Dec 2004, 09:03

Olena wrote

just one more (extended) question - i am applying for the navy, having the other two as second preferences. Up to this point i haven't really researched them knowing quite strongly that i really only want to go navy (and posting on a RAAFie thread, ). A good point has been raised that since the basic training is the same for all, it may make more sense to take whichever offer i may get and then transfer.

Here's where the problem lies for many who don't know exactly how the system works.

(1) First false assumption......... you have to pass flight screening AND be recommened for all 3 services before you can decide to change your preferences. Not everyone who makes it through the board is recommended for all 3 services. If for instance, you are only recommended for the navy and not the other 2 services, then you may not have the opportunity to change.

(2) Second false assumption.........."it may make sense to take whichever offer..........etc" When you fill out the forms and show your first preference, then, providing you are accepted into that service, eg. navy in your case, then you will go into the navy pool. At no time, whilst you are in the navy pool, will you be even considered in the other services. You won't even be considered for your second or third preferences UNLESS you change them to your first preference. So, please don't hold your breath waiting for an offer from the services which you don't have as your first preference. You can only be in one pool at a time. Meanwhile you are not even considered in the other services whilst you are in the pool of your first preference.

I suspect that most are not informed of this little "hiccup" in the system.

(3) Third false assumption......."that since the basic training is the same for all". No, the basic training is NOT the same for all. Air Force and Navy have the same training. Army is protracted.

I have decided to post this information as I am not a member of the military (so sue me!!) but I believe that those who need to know should know. Having been through all this for the last 18 months with a close relative, I believe that others who are going through the same process should be informed of the very simple basics that no-one ever bothers to tell you until it may be too late.

Good luck guys.

Bzulu

finestkind

18th Dec 2004, 08:08

Bzulu

Check six

Make certain your false assumption are really false.

Guess which one isn't

Bzulu

18th Dec 2004, 13:35

finestkind wrote:

Bzulu

Check six

Make certain your false assumption are really false.

Guess which one isn't

Sorry, but I'm not into guessing games......nor are most of those who are trying to find a career as a pilot. That's what makes it so damn difficult for those trying to get through flight screening and into the services as pilots. It's all one big guessing game that no-one really wants to talk about.

If you have somethiing to offer, please feel free to contribute your knowledge. As far as I'm aware, everything I've said is FACT from recent experience. If you have a problem with what I've said, feel free to correct me here on line so that others may learn.

I've only tried to tell it as I know it and to help others who are constantly left in the dark about how the system really works.

Arm out the window

19th Dec 2004, 03:37

People, may I just butt in for a second with a few words of advice.
I was a military pilot for 22 years, mainly RAAF but about 5 years working with and then in the Army.
I'm not familiar with the details of changing between services in the current training world prior to wings, but would highly recommend taking whichever you can get.
Naturally most people will have a preference, and you should go for it strongly, but be aware that the training you will recieve is very good in all three.

As has been said, the RAAF and RAN get different training to the Army, and to my mind the PC-9 route is a good grounding for any flying you are likely to do later. It is also the de-facto standard for service transfers as a qualified pilot - people trying to go from the Army to the others need to do a 'validation' course at CFS to give them those elements of training that they would have missed in their own basic training, such as high/lo nav and combat form. However, such transfers can and do happen.

Also, I'm not saying the Army training is substandard, just different. Many RAAF pilots would be keen to fly helicopters, and some cross-service postings have happened recently. Of course the RAN is basically helos too.

This is probably a bit off track for you guys, but what I'm getting at is that if you can get yourself into any of the services for a pilots' course, do it. No matter what type you fly in what service, you'll get professional training and satisfying operational flying, and if you decide to pull the pin later on you will have a log book full of good experience that would cost your civil counterparts more than anyone can afford.

Best of luck.

Bzulu

19th Dec 2004, 10:22

Great words of wisdom from "Arm out the window" (what a fabulous name :D ) Certainly not off topic at all.

That's exactly what I have recently been through, indirectly. One has to ask the question, do you want to be a fast jet pilot, which is the ambition of most who initially want to join the military, or do you want to be a pilot??

If the answer to the question is "fast jet pilot", then one may sit in the RAAF pool for many months waiting to even get an offer. That offer may never come and after 12 months the process will have to start all over again. However, if the answer to the question is "I want to be a pilot" then the options are also available for the other services PROVIDED the 1st preference indicates one of the other services. That is the information that many are not aware of. Preferences have to be changed to reflect another service before anyone is considered for the other services.

Hope this make sense..........and just remember, the current CAF was a helicopter pilot. ;)

Cheers,

Bzulu

pinny

19th Dec 2004, 21:26

Greetings all,

it's been said here many times before but I'd like to share my personal experience with you. I'm merely a newly graduated RAAF pilot (graduated on No. 200 pilots' course on 10 December 2004). From my experience the process of becoming a RAAF pilot is a long journey filled with highs and lows of which depending on your ability will either be balanced somewhere around 'equally' or favouring the highs. If it's favouring the lows then maybe your should pick another career because you are probably working too hard (too close to maximum capacity) to get a worthwhile enjoyment out of it. Yes, pilots' course CAN and will be enjoyable! It's what you decide to make of it. If you live in fear of failure then you probably will fail. If you decide to focus your energy on fixing what instructors are telling you to fix instead of 'please don't fail' then you will be more than half way there. There will be times when you say to yourself 'why the f*ck am I doing this to myself?!', and unless you are have an extraordinary (emphasis on EXTRA, as opposed to just ordinary) you are going to be doing it tougher than most of your peers. Military pilots' course will make you sweat, and maybe even shed a few tears. You will never feel like you 'have it in the bag'. Every ride is as important as the next, but you can only focus on one ride at a time. If you get too far ahead of yourself you will trip up. At the end of it though, you will be rewarded with what is considered by many to be the best career in the world. Not a bad rap for 2 years of gritting your teeth. And remember, if it was easy your grandmother would be doing it.

olena

20th Dec 2004, 08:38

Bzulu,
arm out the window,

thanks for helping clarify all that.

i am just seriously considering changing all the services to first preference. provided, of course, i'm recommended.
(a big decider was seeing a RAAF arm patch half covered by blond locks of the right seat occupier of a Sea Hawk :eek: )

Bzulu, last thing i want is to wait 12 months in vain for an offer from navy whilst i could have been finishing NEOC were i to include Army and RAAF as first pref. (not that likely, but who knows??!)

i know i'll have plenty of time before i can change - what fueled my question though was whether i needed to study up much on RAAF & Army to actually stand a chance being recommended for them,
or whether i'll just be assessed on my officer and pilot potential regardless of lack of knowledge for the other two (didn't seem all that likely).
but i think it's kinda been answered already.

pinny,
i wonder if this holiday's break's been awaited or can't be ending sooner enough?! :)

finestkind

22nd Dec 2004, 08:59

Olena

If you have a preference then stick to it. However if you really just want in than by all means put down all services as first preference. This also means that you will have some knowledge of all three services, operations, etc.

I am not to certain what you mean by waiting in vain for 12 months when you could have been finishing NEOC if you were to include RAAF and ARA as equal first pref. Making other services equal first pref will not put you into the Navy

Bzulu

Understand that people want information but when you are posting statements that are listed as facts than they should be correct, otherwise far better to say " it is my understanding" etc.
It may be better to be left in the dark about how the system works as opposed to having incorrect info on the system.

Your false assumption two and " at no time while you are in the navy pool, will you even be considered for the other services" I believe is not correct.

It is my understanding that you can still be considered for other services apart from your first preference. The way I believe this works is if you are passed over for your first pref (read others more competetive) but are still rated better than others in your 2nd/3rd pref/or there are no others in those pools you may be offered a considerd for those services.

olena

23rd Jan 2005, 23:03

A brief report on FSP205-02:
5 out of 7 of us got recommended,
yours truly received a 3 for RAN :D and is still grinning insanely for most of her waking time!!

It was an awesome experience, a huge confirmation to me of being on the right path and i couldn't be any happier. I believe to be very lucky with the amount of advice that i've received, for which i can not thank everyone enough; and especially our FSP group - couldn't find a greater bunch if i tried! it's a great shame that the other 2 missed out, they really deserved it...

so to recap-
THANK YOU!!!

back to the waiting game for me i guess.
oh, and i can now officially be the bearer of advice if required, happy to pass the favour along..

LIFE IS GREAT!!!! :D :D :D

finestkind

1st Feb 2005, 00:59

Olena

Congrats and well done

Captain Sand Dune

1st Feb 2005, 03:54

We now look forward to you arriving at BFTS...wah ha ha ha haaa!!:E :E

reacher

1st Feb 2005, 05:32

wow, what a great thread, full of so much info for pilot applicants.

I have my pilot appitude testing booked for the 14th March and i am working towards that date with Maths and instrument reading in mind. The one thing i am worried about is the time/distance/fuel calculation questions, which if the chinese whispers are correct about, have to be answered with exact figures. Can anyone confirm/deny that?

Another aspect i am worried about is the hand/eye co-ord test, no one seems to know that much about it, I have heard stories about the old simulator that was used a few yrs ago, but nothing about what the current test is.

I am really looking foward to the process but the time is killing me, I finsihed uni last yr and i work all weekend at large pub in Sydney supervising the busiet bar, but that leaves me with not much to do/think about during the week.

PTT

6th Feb 2005, 21:42

As an "other ethnic" myself, I reckon that the best thing to do is learn to take the p!ss out of yourself before anyone else has the chance. That way it not only takes away ammunition from people but also means that you get used to laughing at such comments when they are meant as slurs - nothing annoys the bigot more than when you laugh at their "finest riposte"!

Edited to add that I've never experienced any serious attempt at racial abuse during my 11 years in.

TurbineTooHot

7th Feb 2005, 10:45

oz mate,

Crack on and get your qualifications and get in the service.

It's actually fairly cool in, even reading the down-beat posts that the RAF is being sent to s:mad: t by the govt etc. Its still a great life.

As previously alluded to, the only major hassle that I've seen mates from minorities (ethnic, gender etc) have to deal with is the endless stream of PR rollouts that they have to deal with.

If you can put up with being nudged in front of the cameras, you'll be fine!

Remember, virtually everybody in rates folk on ability. They'd be 'kin stupid not to.

Good luck
Turbine

BEagle

7th Feb 2005, 11:29

"If you can put up with being nudged in front of the cameras, you'll be fine!"

True. As one black chum once said in an exasperated voice on hearing that a film crew was due: "Oh bloody great! I suppose they'll want the f***ing token n****r again, will they Boss?" And it was similar tokenism which really used to hack off the girls when the press kept clamouring for 'girlie pilot' stories....

You've got no worries, mate.

olena

17th Feb 2005, 06:46

reacher, check this link out

http://www.cadetnet.gov.au/aafc-apps/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=39&t=000237

quite recent & relevant

finestkind, thank you this time personally :)

Captain Sand Dune- not for another year dammit!!!! can't imagine what'll be like flying the parrots 2-3 times a week as opposed to twice a day. (or nil now :{ )

where is my letter of offer?!! must be the post's fault!

Bonaza

26th Feb 2005, 09:19

Hey all. I am due to go through the aptitude tests for another time in June. I came out of the testing last year mentally exhausted and pretty nervous especially in regards to the distance/speed/fuel calculations knowing I wasn't happy with my efforts.

I wrote to Canberra and asked for a copy of my results. It seems I passed on the distance problems and missed out on the first test of the day, an instrument speed and accuracy tests. It was the only non computer based test of the day and we did the EXACT same test again on the computer at the end. According to my results I performed very will on this one. I was offered NAV or ATC but politely declined the offer.

The advice I can give from my experience is practise Maths/Physics problems without the use of a calculator. Get good at estimation and percentages. I am not sure if this book has been recommended previously but I have ordered a copy of "Wings - Becoming an Air Force Pilot". It is quite expensive but have been told it is very useful. I guess I will put that to the test shortly.

Good luck to all the cadets out there I hope I'm not far behind you.

Peachface

2nd Mar 2005, 03:12

Evening/Morning!

I have applied for the position of RAAF(pilot) and so far have been through the JOES day and specialist testing.

On notification that i was through the assessment day i was bombarded with doomsday and end of the world type letters (most important stage in recruiting.....you must leave a good impression....ect,ect)

This is a shout out to others who are up to this stage or have been through it already. I would appreciate any hints, tips or techniques to help me prepare for 'the end of the world'.

Also stories from any brave souls who have faced the stony gaze of a DF recruiter would be largly appreciated.

Cheers,

Peachface

reacher

2nd Mar 2005, 07:17

Good work, if i read your post right you are waiting for your assesement day?
(can i ask what band u got for spec testing?)

If so they would have already given/told you about the timings and content of the day which is a medical, and 2 interview(i think), one with a pysch and the other with a DF recuriiter. One thing to remember is that the DF member can overrule the head doctor.

To impress the DFR u have to have a indepth knowledge of what position u want and the responibilites including secondary duties, posting locations, training bases and lengths(You should know each step of the way in depth by now, etc.

There's not much to say about the pysch, you have to be yourself and answer the questions truthfully, they will pick out liers straight away.

Have a good knowledge of military lifestyle and try to talk to some ppl already "In", of varying occupations

It also helps to have a basic understanding of the other forces and what they are comprised of to show that if u are offered Army or Navy that u already have some basic knowledge.

I'll PM u with some other hint and tips for flight screening and what not.

Good luck mate.

Hornetboy

3rd Mar 2005, 09:49

Just a little tip if I may,

Apart from knowing your stuff about bases and training, lifestyle, and aircraft, there is one more thing that could help. I've been through more than my share of shrinks as I worked through various hold-ups in my recruiting process, and I realised one thing about them. These guys look at nervous, freckle-faced wannabe's all day, and probe them for better or worse. I've talked to a lot of people who have said the psych absolutely grilled them, but my experience with the various psychs has not shown me this side to them. You see, if you are the one person that day to make them smile (you dont HAVE to be a comedian to achieve this, just be polite and smile yourself), they might just think twice before glaring down on you, instead preferring to assume the better of you. They are, after all, human. And the exchange could be far more pleasant, with ice broken and all.

Then again, when it got to the OSB, it got a lot harder to relax...

wishtobflying

9th Mar 2005, 21:30

Bump ...

Good work but maybe suggest as well that a short description of the general content of each thread be included.

Also ... "joining the RAF"? There's a huge thread about RAAF applications that I've found very useful.

Here 'tis:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39266

wishtobflying

29th Mar 2005, 13:43

Seeing as I'd typed this out for the other thread, I thought it would be useful to post here as well ...

... in Australian Army Aviation we are promoted from Officer Cadet to 2nd Lt on getting our Wings. :ok:

... [snip] ...

Perhaps it would help to describe the process we go through over here ...

1. Job Options and Evaluation Session (JOES) Day - basic psychometric testing, basic medical, watch a video, bring all your paperwork along and have an interview with a recruiter to talk about your preferred job.

2. Spec Testing (aptitude testing) - all the flight crew related aptitude tests. Find out at the end of the day what jobs you qualify for (pilot, loadie, ATC, Defence Controller, etc), and wait for a date for Assessment Day.

3. Assessment Day - full flight medical, in depth psych interview, in depth Defence interview. This is where it starts to get really interesting, because the responses you give at this stage all go towards a score that determines whether or not you proceed. You have to know everything about the job, the Corps you're going into, promotion structure, equipment to be used, expectations of the military, all sorts of stuff that is relevant to a potential new career. This is all in the letter you get.

At this stage your dossier is sent to the The Australian Defence Force Pilot Selection Agency (ADF PSA) (http://www.defence.gov.au/raaf/psa/index.htm), which processes pilot applications for all services, where it is reviewed by the Officer Selection Board and given a score. That score puts you in the queue to be invited to Flight Screening. Every two weeks the top 7 are invited from that list, so you can see that if you're not in the top 7 in week one, you could float up and down in that queue as more applicants enter the process. Some people wait months, some never get invited.

4. The Flight Screening Program is an intensive two weeks of testing to see if you've got what it takes to learn new material quickly and be an officer. There are group activities, individual activities, ground school classes and simulator sessions. An applicant could be scrubbed at any point in that two weeks.

The Officer Selection Board is at the end of the two weeks, and each applicant is given a score from that. Each applicant nominates their preferred Service, and their name then goes into a queue for that Service, again in rank order. When the Service needs pilots, they contact the PSA and say "we need 'n' pilots to start next month". So the top 'n' pilots on that Service's list get called and offered the job.

You have the option of turning down that offer. For instance if your first preference is RAAF but you also said you'd consider Navy, you might be high enough to be offered the Navy job but just below the standard of other RAAF applicants. If you turn down the Navy job, hanging out for the RAAF job, you might never get a job at all.

Anyway, that's just a bit of a brain dump of the process I'm in the middle of. Anyone directly involved in the process should feel welcome to set me straight with any details I'm wrong on.

Ron Burgundy

1st Apr 2005, 04:46

olena, I know the blonde locks you are talking about, lovely girl!

To whoever is interested in fast jet world:

You wont get a hard and fast answer on the ability to change FEGs, aircraft or service as a pilot because it is highly variable. In the fighter world specifically the acceptance of pilots from other roles and services comes and goes, and depends on many factors such as demand for new Hornet bograts vs willingness of other FEGs to let pilots go, lateral recruits available, the mood of OC 78 wing at the time, and many other factors.

Planning to get foot in door and then come across is a real hit and miss affair, and I wouldn't plan on it as a career move. Retreads dont have a fantastic pass rate when they are suddenly thrown into a fast jet after a few years on autopilot, logging hours whilst in the kip.

I quote senior RAAF flying instructor "Your best ever chance of going to fast jets is straight off pilots course".

All flying is good work if you can get it, and my advice to those who had their heart set on getting in as a pilot is if flying is what you want to do then dont restrict yourself to the ADF if all you want to do is fly. I have several mates who failed pilots course and are now Cathay or Qantas pilots, the funny thing is, they are doing what most of us military pilots want to do as soon as we can anyway!!! They just got there five years earlier than the rest of us. (I might get a bit of heat from the career men for that last paragraph)

Coran

15th Apr 2005, 06:47

Well after a long wait I've just received the call to head over to Tamworth for FSP in mid May. Very excited and anxious. I'd love to hear from some of those most recently having been through FSP. Any advice you can give is welcome and appreciated.

Cheers,
Coran

wishtobflying

15th Apr 2005, 10:53

... am waiting for that call ... hopefully it will be around the end of May, that's what I nominated for anyway.

Assessment Day jitters all forgotten, now it gets really interesting!

Does anyone have any thoughts on getting an hour or two logged before going to FSP? Good idea, bad idea? Some I've spoken to say they want to see your ability to learn from dot, but I kind of feel it would be good to at least have a feel for how a light FW aircraft feels in a final approach.

Coran

15th Apr 2005, 12:40

From all the people I've spoken to, including guys who have been through FSP and from guys who work at FSP, getting some flying experience is almost essential, but not entirely. No one will come out and say "You NEED flying experience", because the official stance is you don't. Like in the ad on TV, the guy says he became a Hornet pilot with no more flying experience than counting the times he'd flown in Jumbo's as a kid. Which I'm sure there are lots of pilots who have done it that way, because they show a genuine aptitude and talent for flying and learning to fly.

Getting experience, even if it's only a few hours because you had to scrimp and scrap and work ****ty jobs and long hours to afford it, shows you're motivated to fly. I've spoken to guys who went with no flying experience and were asked "Why do you want to be a pilot?", they respond with something like "It's what I've always wanted to do". The board can only then ask "Well, how do you know? Where's your proof? You've never flown an aircraft, how do you know you want to be a pilot? Go away, get some hours, show us you want to be a pilot, and come back."

So the long and the short.. getting some hours shows you're motivated. And it'll really tell you if you really do want to be a pilot or not. You never know, you mightn’t enjoy it.

wishtobflying

15th Apr 2005, 14:39

Fair call - I've got a few hours on real rotary, and about a hundred in a full size simulator ('cause I design and build them), it's just the FW that I'm not so confident with. I'm not interested in flying fixed wing, so I haven't gone out of my way to get any time in them so far.

See, for me, it just seems right to stop, then land, not the other way around. :O :ok:

Milt

16th Apr 2005, 03:45

Hornet Boy and other RAAF Aspirants

Most interested in you young ones progressing into the RAAF. I joined the RAAF as a trainee pilot as you want to be and then phased out into retirement after a long career which gave me the opportunity for a far wider flying experience than most. Too early for any opportunity for space but this was well compensated for by being actively engaged in the development and testing of high performance aircraft and RAAF aircraft acquisitions.

Part of a fascinating and satisfying career was as a flying instructor and then Central Flying School for the training of flying instructors and the maintenance of flying standards.

Having been on the receiving end of would be RAAF and RAN pilots and having been most dis-satisfied with some of those selected for training by the recruiters I am convinced that the selection process could have done considerably better at the source to reduce the wastage during training and the aggro for those who are found to be inadequate.

Other things being acceptable a would be RAAF pilot must have an acceptable level of manipulative co-ordination. I didn't realise I had my fair share of that attribute until my late teens when I took to doing some motor cycle racing. Fortunately for me I was an engineering under-graduate at the time of enlistment and I was 'snapped up'.

My recruiters had their sights on academics, attitudes and suitable physicals with little or zero attention to co-ordination. Consequently we ended up with a fellow on course who couldn't swing his arms in concert with his legs when walking. He didn't last long when flying training commenced.

More often than not, those having an inherent high level of manipulative co-ordination gravitate to involvement with machinery requiring manipulative skills. An aircraft would appear to have the ultimate requirement.

So, Hornet Boy and others, how do you rate your own relative co-ordination and how did the current recruiters determine your specifics in this area.? Do they know how to do it yet? Be critical of their system - they may be listening and improve their methods..

Meanwhile stay well clear of drugs, body piercing, tatts, smoking and the dole if you want to be the one to be considered most favourably. Nurture your communicative skills and become computer literate.

reacher

16th Apr 2005, 06:48

Milt: thats one thing i was always thinking about, i know to control an aircraft is a highly co-ordinated act, and it's something that is hard to accuratly test. The physcomotor tests DFR do test this ability a bit, but not to much i think.

Suppose I should be alright, seeing that i was competitive motor cycle trials rider and can Flair-tend behind a bar. Mow i just ahve to pass Pilot Spec testing next yr. :( :hmm:

Hornetboy

16th Apr 2005, 11:05

G'day Milt,

What was involved in the testing when you went through? It's not my place to make a conclusive judgement, because no matter what it's got to be a difficult job assessing every applicable aspect of every candidate to ensure they have what it takes for every phase of training and further service. For example, someone mentioned to me that while FSP can determine how well you learn basic aircraft manoeuvres, many people get to instrument flying and just can't handle it. But really, what more can you do about that, short of spending another few thousand $$'s and a lot more time getting EVERY candidate into real IF at maximum workload?

...At this point the best they can do is assess your motivation toward overcoming any obstacle put in your path. I'll second what Coran said about flying hours showing motivation. It really is something the OSB is looking for. The guys with minimal to no hours, especially the older ones, said they had a good grilling about it at the Board. But if you have a good reason for it (eg. sick and dying mother to take care of, 3rd world poverty, etc), you may be alright.

Regarding coordination specifically, there was only one coordination test I did at the Recruiting Centre. This is the one we're not allowed to talk about, but I think I can say it wasn't particularly comprehensive. (Although sufficiently confusing!) I've heard they may have introduced more coordination tests now. Anyone care to comment?

Milt, was the Flight Screening Program up and running when you went through? By that stage they're taking a pretty close look at us. I mean if you get through 10 flights and 2 sim rides without the ex-fighter/airline/etc BAe instructors not noticing your lack in coordination....then good job! Also what I appreciated was something called the "round table", where the instructors and Board members would meet to discuss the flying of the candidate. Who knows what sorts of jokes fly around the round table, but it's good to know that there's communication all round, as there can always be a degree of subjectiveness in the scoring of individual instructors.

Unfortunately I don't think I can give my actual results without having to explain how we were scored, and then the ADFPSA may be a tad displeased with me having disclosed that information. But I can say that the instructors were reasonably pleased with my "hands and feet", and bar some hard landings in the past :}, coordination has never been an issue with me.

While I'm not the biggest fan of the initial stages of recruiting, I must say that by the time you reach the FSP/OSB, the ADFPSA are putting a lot of effort into assessing you for the job. They keep mentioning a little something called "reasonable risk to the taxpayer" throughout. So they really seem to have their mind on the goal. And I have heard that the pass/fail rate on Pilots course is improving.

But if I may say one more thing about the process. I think it's quite a pity that a shortlist must be made for FSP/OSB beginning day one of assessment. It's pass/fail for every single test. At FSP/OSB, they make it clear that they are assessing the entire package of the candidate. Meaning if you're not the best flyer (but still not too hopeless), you may make up for it in other areas. And if you're a top gun, you'd have to be - I quote - "bl**dy brainless" not to be recommended by the Board. If you've read my posts from the start, you'll see that I've had to overcome some obstacles in my recruitment process, meaning I've tripped up on the many steps, and been prematurely told I was unsuitable. Fortunately for me there were always 2nd chances and I had the grace of time to re-try as I went through university.

Others haven't had 2nd chances. While the ADFPSA may have assessed their entire package to be a reasonable balance, the initial stages of recruiting haven't looked at them in that way, and scrapped them all too soon. I know it's hard, and expensive, to look at each new candidate as closely as they do in FSP, but I think that if they had that reasonable outlook, we would find more of the right people in FSP, hence saving money at that stage. Not saying the wrong people get to FSP, but I AM saying that a lot of people with great potential, and perhaps greater motivation, get passed up too soon, while sometimes someone who's simply got the ticks in the boxes finds himself in a CT-4.

donpizmeov

16th Apr 2005, 12:27

Fellas.
If you get through the assesment day, and are reconmmended, is it automatic to get to Flight Screening? How long does it take to find out if and when it will happen?
Don

Coran

16th Apr 2005, 23:54

Don, it is not automatic that you'll go to flight screening. If you are successful through assessment day and get recommended then your dossier gets sent to PSA with everyone else who's recommended around the country. PSA give your dossier a score and put it on a pile. When it comes time to select the 7 or so lucky ones for the next FSP they go through the pile and select those that they consider to be most competitive.

My dossier has been down at Tamworth for about 8 months before I got the call to attend. Your dossier will stay for a maximum of 12 months, if you don't receive a call you're deemed uncompetitive and will have to reapply and go through assessment day again. There are some people who have waited out the 12 months before getting a call, there are others that don't have to wait very long.

Coran

donpizmeov

17th Apr 2005, 01:54

Thanks for that Coran

reacher

17th Apr 2005, 09:11

Great post HB!

The last few paragraphs totally explains how i feel after just failing spec testing. The drive and detmermination that i feel inside of me can easily make up the very small shortfall that was found in insturment reading (of all things to fail on :\ )

While understanding the need to cut the wannabes from the real stuff early on in the application process, having the spec testing as the 2nd step doesn't really assess the drive and motivation of the applicant. Maybe it would be more applicable to pay attention to such indicators earlier on rather than concentrate on pass/fail critera to wean the wannabes out. Perhaps hve the assessment day before the spec testing?

Random thoughts flying about in my head in the spare months that i have. None of this matters so it's hurry up and wait (to kill the testing next time)

Milt

18th Apr 2005, 07:08

Hornetboy and reacher

I feel I have opened up a can of worms when it comes to pondering how to determine levels of human dexterity and co-ordination of brain function with muscular control as related to pilot aspirants.

Having had experience with a deficient RAAF assessment system 40 odd years ago I had hoped that reasonably effective methods would have long since been developed if not by the RAAF then by other air forces, all of which will be continuing to seek the optimum quality of their aircrews.

My own recruitment in 1948 was very superficial with emphasis on medical, academics and some elementary aptitude testing leaving pilot potential to be investigated during the first 10 hours of elementary flight training. That 10 hours produced a very rough assessment of those who may make an acceptable pilot with the remainder diverted to be trained as other aircrew. Subsequent wastage became increasingly significant and costly.

Incidently it took me several early flying hours to become somewat familiar with the control of an aircraft rudder as they all operate in the reverse human instictive sense. Blame this on the Wright Bros who didn't want to cross over their rudder control cables.

Recruiters of aircrew are apparently not yet equipped with a satisfactory means for assessment of the relative intrinsic manipulative skill of us humans with any high level of confidence; and this is after I have spent half a lifetime in trying to ensure that many of the aircraft you may handle can be flown safely by the least capable in the system.

Experience indicates that the more intense the resolve of a would be pilot becomes then it is a fair bet that that person is being driven by an innate recognition of his/her own capabilities in expertly and precisely co-ordinating multiple muscular activities.

Must go and discuss with the RAAF Recruiters.

Hornetboy

18th Apr 2005, 08:13

Reacher,

Cheers mate. What I was thinking was perhaps letting everyone complete the initial testing/interviews before getting someone(s) to consider the balance and make the judgement of whether they are suited to continue. Or even sending everyone's results to the *possibly enlarged* ADFPSA for that judgement.

Even medically, if someone's eyesight is slightly below criteria, if it can be corrected to 6/6 and that person shows great potential, why not give him a go? (I know, I'm a dreamer, but within reasonable grounds of course.) It seems to be just that Manpower has had to play a bit of elimination in a numbers game to get us down to size for the more expensive testing.

ANYWAY, back on topic...

Milt,

What you're saying is that it's possible that the more motivated a person is towards flying, the more capable/coordinated he/she is likely to be for the role? Kind of like our natural attraction to certain members of the opposite sex is possibly due to subconscious recognition of their reproductive abilities? (too many big words)

What changes would you propose to RAAF Recruiting?

Milt

18th Apr 2005, 10:03

Hornetboy and reacher

Just had a review of this thread from my perspective of one who did it all in the RAAF including some selection boards.

Some time ago there were some references on this thread to a rapidly diminishing level of literacy and how this may be viewed by the recruiters.
Believe me it will have some significance. If the present rate of decline is accepted by the recruiters communication on the flight decks will eventually have to be by a series of grunts. Whenever I see "i" used for "I" I know that person is too lazy to use the shift key and I wouldn't want that person on my flight crew or even in my Squadron. And when I see Australia typed with a small a I think I don't want to know you. It does matter. These are little windows into your literacy and your potential. Some of you expressing yourselves in this slovenly manner are not fit for acceptance by Australia's military elite even though generally you are innocent victims of school teachers who seem to have mostly gone feral.

All aspirants consider - you are trying to be the cream of the crop - not the dumbest.

Hornetboy - your decode of my attempt to define aptitude is spot on. One can sense it in children and wise parents are able to influence them into occupations which appear to be most suitable.

Too early yet for me to propose any changes to the RAAF recruiting assessment system. I don't know enough of the methods being used but intend to soon correct that situation.

wishtobflying

18th Apr 2005, 12:17

For aptitude testing, ADF Recruiting uses a version of the WOMBAT system from Aero Innovations - http://www.aero.ca/e_main.html - which provides a very accurate measure of the applicant's aptitude in certain tasks.

Milt, you mention "pondering how to determine levels of human dexterity and co-ordination of brain function with muscular control as related to pilot aspirants" - ponder no more, this test does it all. That and the other batteries of tests given pilot applicants on the "Spec Testing" day give recruiters a very solid picture of the overall suitability of the applicant to perform the job.

Years of using these tests have given them the confidence to apply certain cutoff points with the scores.

These days, I believe much less emphasis is placed on academic achievement, however the testing will quickly determine if the applicant lacks basic mathematics skills essential in the cockpit.

This testing does not necessarily mean the applicant wouldn't be suited to a civilian flying career. The Defence Force is looking for a higher level of capacity for training, for learning and applying new material quickly, etc. I am told by those who have been through the system how easy it is to be scrubbed by failing one flight test. Tough, yes, but they aren't interested in babysitting people who might get it right with lots of practise - they're interested in the ones who will get it right quickly.

And they have the luxury to be choosy. There are still thousands of initial applicants who dream of being pilots. No shortage there. The hard part is holding on to the good ones. This is why if you are in the Defence Force as an aviator for longer than 10 years, you get almost an extra $30,000 per year just because you CAN fly. This is how a Major can be earning over $100,000 pa before he gets out of bed. If a helicopter pilot leaves the Defence Force he'd be lucky to be on 80% of that if he found a job at all.

See the bottom of page 8 of this thread for a bit more of a description of the overall process.

Milt

18th Apr 2005, 12:58

wishtobflying

Thanks a bunch for the reference to page 8. I had missed it in my review of the thread.

Now I have renewed confidence in the recruiters' assessment methods which in my day as a trainee and later as a flying instructor were almost non existent.

Having had a very active flying career covering 90 + types from Tiger Moths to F-111s, a fair share of being shot at and being able to shoot back, more than a fair share of flight testing on all types and now retired, I am unable to turn off my continuing concern for the upholding of aircrew and aircraft quality in Australia's military.

Peachface

4th May 2005, 12:41

I am attending flight screening in Tamworth in a couple of weeks.

I am interested in what actually happens in the two week stay.

The people i've talked to have been fairly tight lipped and don't like to disclose what the testing guidlines are and what determines a pass. I've even had trouble decerning the nature of the assesments, why keep me for two weeks when you only perform 10 hours flying?

Any enlightenment would be greatly appreciated. Any comments on what to wear would also be welcome (formal, semi-formal, casual ect).

Cheers, Peach

Runaway Gun

4th May 2005, 14:05

Be yourself (but slightly better behaved).

It's better to overdress than it is to underdress.

Listen lots, don't brag about your supposed experience.

Be willing to learn, take time to study whatever notes they provide, show improvement daily.

If you don't understand something, just ask. If they don't tell you, give it a go.

Have fun !!

Cougar

6th May 2005, 03:09

Peachface,
Flight screening does involve a lot of study. The best way to fail is to treat it like a holiday. Your comment of "why keep me for two weeks when you only perform 10 hours flying?" has me a tad concerned.

The flying you do is not teaching you to fly, it is assessing your aptitude and learning rate for military flying. To enable you to pass there is a lot of info that they expect you to know, which they provide you with on day 1. If you don't know it, you won't pass. Simple.

Trust me, the two weeks will go very quickly when you study, fly, study, fly, study, etc. Oh and eat and sleep.

Even if you are already an aerobatic wizz, they will show you plenty of things you have never seen before. Add to that the fact that you fly two aircraft in those two weeks and i am sure you will not have that much spare time on your hands.

Cheers.

Peachface

7th May 2005, 06:17

I've talked to a few people concerning the testing at Tamworth and they told me to study up on the UN, Australia's relations and policies with other countries and to practise counting backwards from 100 by 3s. Does anyone have any other suggested topics to study, and how throughly must i be versed in the above areas?

wishtobflying

7th May 2005, 09:22

Thanks mate, very well done, you've just succeeded in getting the OSB at Tamworth to change every question on their sheet! :ok:

I believe the saying is ... "All bets are off". :hmm: :* :rolleyes:

Chronic Snoozer

7th May 2005, 18:17

There is no secret, just be yourself. If you try to 'be' what you think the RAAF is looking for you will disappoint and be disappointed. (or not appointed to be more correct) However the ability to count backwards from 100 by 7 could come in handy.

What to wear? Take an educated guess, its hard to be overdressed, v. bad to be underdressed. Finally, its best to remain clothed at all times, even after 67 pints of lager.

don_alexio

10th May 2005, 11:05

For a start, it's 15 hours of flying.
Officer selection board... you do a few leadership exercises, teamwork activities etc, and then the interview with the board - an officer from each service, plus a psychologist.
be yourself and KNOW YOUR STUFF!
I go next month.

Peachface

11th May 2005, 02:38

For anyone who has attended the OSB before;

What type of questions will be asked?, theoretical (if i was in this situation what should i do) or knowledge based (detailed info on ADF operations etc) or a combination of both (examples would be appreciated)

I'm applying for RAAF pilot, how much should i know about the other services?

Any help is greatly appreciated as always, Peach

L J R

11th May 2005, 19:15

Hey Peach, They are looking for a lot of APTITUDE. If you have any you will already have searched PPRUNE for similar questions and answers. Believe me, ALL the answers to your questions are here on PPRUNE already. Additionally, other similar sites have good-gen for individuals such as yourself.

BTW - Good Luck.

let us know how it goes.
.

Peachface

12th May 2005, 12:37

Sorry Guys, i guess i was just taking the easy road.

One question i can't find an answer to;

Do any currently serving military pilots hold an interest in GA (own their own planes, complete in competitions, fly friends to out of the way places for brunch etc).

Peach

Soopster

26th May 2005, 03:26

To answer your abv question, no.

I thought the OSB was before FS?

wishtobflying

26th May 2005, 04:22

It used to be. Now it's at the end of the two weeks of flight screening, IF you get that far.

Peachface

28th May 2005, 23:23

I'm currently at flight screening at the moment (mid course), all my questions have been answered and i think i stressed alot more then i should have.

However i'm still interested in military pilots who have GA interests, so far i haven't met any.

Do military pilots (esp. fast jet) still enjoy the flying or is it just the thrill of doing something noone else can?

Replies appreciated, Peach

Cougar

29th May 2005, 22:22

Hi Peaches,
To answer your question, yes. Everytime i get to fly i still get that awesome feeling. But it's more than that. If you can add to that a morning sunrise over the middle east, or a dawn airdrop of paratroopers or a evening arrival into a foreign country or a parade flypast, then that's what really makes it.

Sunfish

30th May 2005, 01:07

Watch the team building exercises and be good at them. Be careful in the "leadership" exercises because one of them just might be about deliberate frustration.

Zoom

30th May 2005, 12:00

Tamworth, eh? That had me fooled. Couldn't think why you would want to flog up the A5 to Tamworth, Staffs, even if it was to ski at Britain's and Europe's (second, now, I believe) largest indoor Snowdome or shop at Ventura Park.

So tell us a bit about the Oz Tamworth. Is your OASC or something similar?

joe2812

30th May 2005, 14:47

*BUMP* for the benefit of superlukeyboy.

(All RAF links now include a short description of what the thread is about)

Peachface

30th May 2005, 22:43

Thanks Couger, i was afraid that regulations, protocol, procedures and the regimantal lifestyle would eliminate the free spirit and detract from the joy of actually flying the aircraft. I was hoping to be proved wrong and i'm glad you could show me the lighter side.

Cheers, Peach

Whiskey226

31st May 2005, 05:33

Just a quick Q for you, Peachy.
After passing all the interviews/tests and being recommended for the FSP, how long did they take to get back to you regarding start dates for FSP? It's been around a Month for me now, hoping it hasn't been lost en-route to the paper board...

Flik Roll

31st May 2005, 06:52

I was pretty sure it was September from what I heard...but that just might be me...

Peachface

1st Jun 2005, 03:00

Whiskey226

It took me around 4 weeks to get a position at FSP, but there are people on the course who waited up to 3 months. The people who had to wait the longest were shouted a day at the Avalon airshow (including travel to and from). So no need to worry yet, give it 3 months then contact your local recruiter if your still concerned.

Peach

don_alexio

1st Jun 2005, 22:40

yeah it took me about 4 weeks to get a spot. i fly out to tamworth to start my flight screening in just over a week.

best of luck with OSB peach! :ok:

don_alexio

2nd Jun 2005, 05:05

Time to drag this thread back to the surface! :D

I'm off to flight screening at the end of next week (11-25 June). Is anyone else on here going to be joining me?

I've logged a few hours flying, been studying and preparing and hopefully I'll go well. My application has been good so far - I applied just before Christmas last year, and for my aircrew testing I was told that I got the top scores out of the group (the testing officer told me I had very high scores, even for a pilot applicant, which is strange because I didn't think I went well at the time!). If all goes well then in just over three weeks I'll walk out of BAe with a giant grin on my face.

Congrats on everyone here who has gotten through selection and is living the dream, and for the not so fortunate, keep your chin up and keep trying! Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, there's some great advice from a lot of people. If anyone else has more pearls of wisdom then feel free to share!

FastJetz

2nd Jun 2005, 10:45

Hi Guys,

I was hoping to get some response from some RAAFies out there about eyesight requirements for pilot selection.
I understand that vision of 20/20 is required for pilot applicants, but i have also spoken to some ADF pilots about the matter and have been told that some guys that have joined have had correction surgery/treatments in order to regain normal vision.
I've seen afew active ADF pilots wearing glasses and i would assume that is OK after the government has spent pleny of $$$ on training which is fair enough.

I've been dead keen for years to join the RAAF, but due to having vision slightly below the requirement and after initial interviews with defence recuiters i had given up hope until speaking with former/current pilots of the ADF.

Any infomation would be greatly appriciated,

Cheers

wishtobflying

2nd Jun 2005, 13:02

I've had more medical issues - a "minor abnormality" on my ECG that has resulted in another month of farting around with cardiologist, etc. Cardiologist says I'm fine, reports sent off to AvMed, now waiting to hear back to see if they agree, *then* my dossier gets sent to Tamworth for review.

Fingers crossed ...

Runaway Gun

2nd Jun 2005, 22:39

Do NOT even consider laser corrective surgery before getting information from the RAAF Doctors.

jimlad4

3rd Jun 2005, 14:34

Hi there. I am just curious; does anybody know what the average ratio of applicants to acceptances is for becoming a Pilot in the RAF in the past few years?

Lost Again..

3rd Jun 2005, 14:45

From personal experience.
As long as your eyes go bad after half way through course ($$$ remember) and you can be corrected back to 6/6 vision, then you can get corrective glasses/contacts. You had to join with 6/6 and experience degradation later.

Not sure of current policy but this was applicable a few years back.

Re-iterate RG's post. There are 2 laser surgery techniques and one of them disqualifies you for life IIRC. The other technique is allowed after RAAF Medical approval.

HTH

Pontius Navigator

3rd Jun 2005, 17:53

slim, how would that do you? Given FJ slots at about 24 per year and all branch presentation at 30 per week!

Pass-A-Frozo

3rd Jun 2005, 19:17

I know a bloke who started pilots course with glasses.

From what I know (which is not with any authority!!) they want 20/20 when you join. Can go bad the following day so long as it's correctable with glasses to 20/20.

If you have bad eyes to begin with, appeal all the way up and you may get a nod. The theory is they get enough applicants with good eyes so why bother with the others. Appeal to DG Air Force Health (is he still called this) , then when he says no (and he will) to SGADF (Surgeon General -ADF), then when he says no (and he most probably will ), Dear Minister..

PAF

reacher

4th Jun 2005, 02:58

I dont know about the RAF, but the RAAF ratio of applicants to badged FJ pilots is around the order of 1:750.

As the ADF as a whole, all pilots positions to applicants is around 1:90

I cant remember where I have heard these numbers been thrown about so I am happy to be corrected.

Peachface

4th Jun 2005, 05:49

Just finished OSB,

Not Yet 18 was the verdict (come back in 18 months). Happy with the result and will try again.

Cheers to everyone who posted on this thread. I now understand why it all has to be kept under wraps....

Peach

Hornetboy

4th Jun 2005, 05:53

Hey FastJetz,

It all depends who you speak to, unfortunately. I found not all the medical staff were aware of the latest adjustments when I was researching, and I'd imagine it would be hard to be. But there were some fantastic people who went all out to help me. (And some not so fantastic who couldn't be bothered, and one in particular who referred me to the wrong type of surgery being the only type allowed!!)

I can't give you all the specific references as I'm...well....on the other side of the globe at the moment, but I think Health Bulletin 11/02 was one of them, regarding laser eye surgery. There was another one regarding visual acuity that you may find in an old thread titled "Glasses in the RAAF" or something similar. And some medical staff actually handed me an actual refractive surgery summary page for applicants (not comprehensive), but it all takes a bit of asking around.

To the best of my knowledge, it is now 6/12 uncorrected, but there are also dioptre limits. If you exceed those, then PRK is allowed, not LASIK. LASEK, a form of PRK, is also allowed. But there are requirements pre- and post-op that you must fulfil. Feel free to PM with any more specific questions, and I'll do what I can when I get home in a few weeks. But once again, the moral to everyone's story is to double check/make sure of everything yourself. Especially as the rules have been quite fluid with such changes lately.

When I was at OSB toward the end of last year, the Wing Commander said there was one guy who had gone through with laser surgery before me (mind you I hadn't conducted surgery yet, as I appealed to sit FSP/OSB first), so I suppose I'm the second. Now I've done the surgery, waited the 3 months post-op, and my file is sitting somewhere in Canberra waiting to be medically cleared. It's a long process mate. But if you want it enough....

Cheers and Good Luck

Whiskey226

4th Jun 2005, 06:42

Cheers Peach, sorry to hear you didn't get through straight away, but persistance is the key, right? I got knocked back firt time outright. This time they didn't seem to care about that...
Here's hoping, anyway!

Happy trails

Pontius Navigator

4th Jun 2005, 10:23

Here are some fairly accurate figures.

Applicants for officer - all branches - 12,000 per year of whom 7,000 apply for pilot.

3,000 actually get to OASC of whom 1,200 are wanabees.

Of the pilot applicants there are 80 slots.

So work out the appropriate ratio. Even the best works out at 1:15.

ConwayB

7th Jun 2005, 12:30

G'day Mate,

I did Point Cook way back when on 52 Army Pilot Basic Course. After 56 APBC, it moved to Tamworth... so the PSA course is foreign to me... but the stress and style isn't.

As for GA flying, I guess we all have an interest in it, but don't often have the time to take advantage of it. What's more, after flying very capable and battle worthy aircraft (for the most part), jumping into a GA lightie seems to be more bother than it's worth... until you actually do it and then you remember how much fun it is (except for the part about paying the bill at the end of the flight.)

My background is Black Hawk and Chinook, but I recently did my FWMECIR and NVFR and CPL etc, etc. It was quite a change to go from a multi-crew environment to single pilot ops again. It was more challenging than I remember... but like I said, lots of fun.

Good luck for your return to TW. Check out the website at www.ipas.com.au for some images.
CB

Slezy9

20th Jul 2005, 12:19

I guess its changed a bit since I did Flight Screening but I have never played so much tennis as the two weeks at Tamworth.

don_alexio

20th Jul 2005, 12:22

We only played tennis once, cos it rained practically the whole two weeks! Played lots of table tennis though. Went go-karting, went to the Impy a few times, and we went flying every now and then too...

Slezy9

21st Jul 2005, 07:05

Ahhh the Impy. Many drunken memories of the various drinking establishments in Tamworth. The Q bar was the place to go when I was there.

EnnArr

21st Jul 2005, 21:45

Does anyone know if the Australian Army are still recruiting Chinook pilots?

I know they were after people over the last couple of years, but what does the future hold for recruitment?

Also what are they after in terms of experience?

Can anyone answer? Just wanting to keep my options open..........Many thanks!

EnnArr :ok:

spag

22nd Jul 2005, 05:12

Im sure they would be interested in an experienced lateral recruit, if you fit the bill.

reacher

22nd Jul 2005, 06:00

Pretty sure that C SQN is a 2nd term only posting. Same with FW AAAvn posting as well.

Maple 01

22nd Jul 2005, 09:30

Bit worried that PMA website has a link to RAAF 'crossover' - are they trying to tell us something?

Edited for spelling defunkt

D-IFF_ident

22nd Jul 2005, 13:51

Try here:

http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/default.asp?p=122

;)

acey

4th Aug 2005, 08:39

Well it's approaching 12 months since my pilot specific test. Last time I wasn't recommended for Pilot - in addition to not meeting eyesight requirements after seeing an ophthalmologist. I'll probably call them soon and see if any requirements have been reduced.

Anyway, I've been doing aerobatic training and I'm on my way to a CPL. Next year I'll complete my Bach. Aerospace Eng and hopefully start work in flight test engineering and end up a test pilot - but who knows!

I'd love to fly in the RAAF, but the likelihood of that happening is slowly drifting away...

I wanted to ask if anyone knew the specific differences between civil and military training?

Good luck to everyone who's got the bug!
Oh and you too can fly a fast jet to the edge of space: http://www.incredible-adventures.com/edgeofspace.html

geoffcree72

5th Aug 2005, 02:48

Can anyone give me some more information regarding the "team building" and "leadership" excercises for OSB at Tamworth.

I've been waiting about a month to get on the 2 wk course.

Cheers

PS I take it I should pack a tennis racquet as well :D

geoffcree72

8th Aug 2005, 09:01

Wishto-

Know what you are going thru. I am waiting in the Flight Screening Pool at moment ie waiting for 2 wk course at Tamworth.

I had a knee arthroscopy done last year and this raised some eyebrows. Dr at recruiting medical said it was all good but AVMED would get final say. About 6wks later AVMED **** canned me and said I was too much off a risk of not being able to carry out all strenuous activities associated with being in armed services. (Despite the fact that I would probably be fitter than 95% of them)

Anyway to cut along story short, I appealed the decision, got two knee specialist reports, a letter from my 'boot camp' instructor from Fitness First, another letter from my squash partner together with my covering letter.....and wow had a win and my application was under consideration again.

So if you really want in, keep fighting them all the way.

Cheers and good luck with it!!

wishtobflying

22nd Aug 2005, 10:10

Well it all got sorted, and I'm typing this at Flight Screening in Tamworth!

Re: aptitude testing ... It turns out that even though Defence Recruiting has been gathering data with the AUSBAT tests for the last ten years or so, they're not actually using it for the selection process after all. It's still the General Aptitude Score that determines what you get offered.

Flight Screening is certainly challenging, lots to learn in a short space of time. Speaking of which, I'm off to study.

P.S. Kiwi knock-knock joke:

Knock-knock
Who's there?
Zachoo
Zachoo who?
Zachoo bro?

geoffcree72

23rd Aug 2005, 02:48

Wishto..

You lucky bastard.....let us know what scores you get allocated at the board and whether you get recommended.:ok:

wishtobflying

4th Sep 2005, 14:58

Done, finished, successful, Army first preference, total rating good enough.

Little bit of advice to those on their way down there ... don't stress about it until you're there, but when you're there, READ THE BOOK. Really.

Cheers to all we met and got to know ... good luck and we'll see you back there next year some time hopefully.

Might have to change my username, or at least the text underneath, once John Howard starts paying for it. :)

Bzulu

20th Sep 2005, 11:09

Bzulu posted 12th December 2004 22:05

Check

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showth...839#post1157839

The originator of the thread starts in the services in January 2005. Flying training still to follow.

Note that the original message was posted January 2004, so don't hold your breath guys. That's how long it may take after Flight Screening before you're finally "on your way".

It's a long............slow..............process.

Good luck to all of you

Well, just to show you all how long this process takes, the originator of ^^^^ thread flew for the first time today at BFTS as a fully fledged trainee military pilot ........only 20 months after completing flight screening!!

Good things come to those who wait. ;)

TheShadow

20th Sep 2005, 12:29

Hmm.The processing varies

Beat this:

a. Applied in August

b. Goble Trophy in early April

c. Wings in October

d. New Guinea in January

e. Vietnam in late April

pressure-cooking course with a 50% chop-rate

Bzulu

21st Sep 2005, 11:22

TheShadow wrote

Hmm.The processing varies

Beat this:

a. Applied in August

b. Goble Trophy in early April

c. Wings in October

d. New Guinea in January

e. Vietnam in late April

pressure-cooking course with a 50% chop-rate

Begging your pardon TheShadow,

May I firstly ask in what years you gained such success? Flight training alone now takes 18 months for any RAAF or Navy pilot, Army takes at least 9 months after officer training.

Secondly, may I add that this thread is not about "beating" any records but about people who aspire to being military pilots discussing the process as they tread the sometimes vague and unknown road to that ultimate goal.

I did not post to brag but to provide some insight into just how long that process may now take in the 21st century.

Cheers mate.

wishtobflying

21st Sep 2005, 13:34

e. Vietnam in late April

I must admit, my first thought was ... what decade?

TheShadow

24th Sep 2005, 06:01

Twas in the early sixties

7 months from application to finish BFTS PCK (Winjeel)

6 months at AFTS (Vamp mk35) (with no leave in between) to Grad

OCU (5 Sqn) pressure cooker conversion + OJT on many dets

early off to Vietnam - on 6 days notice (replaced an LMF returnee)

It was an example of what they will do when warm bodies are required on-line at the coal-face. We got precious little Service Training and only a modicum of rifle-tossing drill. All that I can clearly recall is being frequently charged for this that and the other by WoD Ashton (a real barking charmer of a strutting martinet ex British Army Guards RSM). And getting sozzled in the cadet's club of course.

Spent most of my time at PCK on CB (confined to barracks / weeding parade grounds). My most poignant memory was of swapping sloping tin roof-top sides on Block 44 (cadet's accomm) to avoid the gaze (and strident screams) of WoD Ashton. He knew someone (presumably a cadet) was on the three-storey building's roof but couldn't get a visual bead on just who it was. I was up there affixing my HF and FM antennas to the ridge. I finally tired of the game and quickly swung from a gutter through my open window. He later tracked me down courtesy of the tell-tale antenna wires leading through my window top. Curses.... never have been good at covering my tracks.

I reviewed my records, logbooks and old course photos and worked out that, discounting back-coursers, it was actually just over a 60% chop-rate. i.e. they took any warm body and then just weeded out the dross. As I recall, I was one of only 7 direct entries - the rest being ex-airmen and navs/sigs. One of the Navy bods gotchopped because he was never present for a running change. He was tracked down by the SP's hanging around the WRAAF's wet canteen at ASCO - when he should have been suited up, helmet in hand for a running change on the flightline. That might give you an insight into the sort of grist-mill it was.

I doubt that I'd have the patience to do it via Tamworth. I wonder if Dick Exler is still there at Tamworth grading the studes. Top troop, ex RAF and ex-Saudi PC9/Strikemaster, very experienced .... even if he did have a stude bang out on him whilst inverted (in protest at Dick's outside loop, no doubt). If he's typical of the calibre of IP's grading at Tamworth, anybody with the right approach to military flying should be able to breeze through.