What Cockpit? MK V

[MReyn24050]

Well Stephen.
With so many WACO Cabin aircraft it is a little difficult to narrow this one down. I think I can definately sat that it is not a UIC,QDC,YOC and YKC.
So I will go for either a YQC-6, AGC-7 or EGC-8. If this is incorrect can you tell us the year of manufacture?

Based on your last how about the WACO SRE?
Mel

[Akubra]

Yes it was the SRE.
I thought I would add the number produced because of the many types made over the years.
About the best Waco coding information can be found at the aerofiles.com site. Just as they state: " Ever a subject of contention, confusion, speculation, and bar-room brawls, Waco's system of codifying its planes gets somewhat clarified courtesy of Jack Wilhelm, of the Waco Historical Society, Ray Brandly, author of the definitive Waco book, and Aerofiles' own Lennart Johnsson."

http://aerofiles.com/wacodata.html

You have control...

[MReyn24050]

Akubra. Thanks for that, as you say there are so many variants of Waco Cabin Aircraft it would have taken some elimination.
Here is the next one, a few instruments missing I am afraid but I am sure it will not last long.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/Cockpit%20quiz/Cockpitquiz255.jpg
Mel

[Tiger_mate]

Wrong yoke, so I guess I am probably wrong, but the transparency suggests a Canberra T4

[evansb]

German manufacturer?

[MReyn24050]

Tiger_mate

Not a Canberra.

evansb

Not of German manufacture.

Mel

[evansb]

Was it built in Russia, or a former Soviet Bloc country?

[Kitbag]

Instruments appear to be in English. Looks like some orange cabling (flight test gear?) behind r/h inst panel. For the life of me I can't see any throttles for the pilots though. Could they be roof mounted? Can't see any u/c indication either. Flying boat?

[MReyn24050]

Was it built in Russia, or a former Soviet Bloc country?
This one was not Russian or from the former Soviet Bloc. It is also not British nor from the USA.It is not a flying boat.


Mel

[MReyn24050]

After further research,I feel I may have led you astray. The subject aircraft did have German origins which was manufactured in a country that later became part of the Soviet Bloc as well as the country that this aircraft was produced.
Well that should lead you to it straight away.
Mel

[evansb]

Some flight instruments indicate a fairly high performance aircraft. Is it a jet?

In hindsight, I must have mistaken the metric instrument calibrations to be in feet and miles-per-hour.

[windriver]

Complete guess 'cos I can`t find any cockpit shots... or even remember the model name... Is it a PZL something ?

(I`m thinking of the one that looks a bit like a Shorts 330)

[MReyn24050]

Sorry for the delay.
evansb
This aircraft was not a Jet powered aircraft.
windriver
Not a PZL.
Mel

[MReyn24050]

I think this view may answer kitbag's question reference throttles.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/Cockpit%20quiz/Cockpitquiz256.jpg

[Tiger_mate]

Mel said:

The subject aircraft did have German origins which was manufactured in a country that later became part of the Soviet Bloc as well as the country that this aircraft was produced.


Can we have that one in English:E

German involvement in the design? (East Germany?)

Made in a 'new' Soviet Bloc country? ( -"-)

...and the last bit just baffles me

[MReyn24050]

Can we have that one in English

German involvement in the design? (East Germany?)

Made in a 'new' Soviet Bloc country? ( -"-)

...and the last bit just baffles me

Was designed by Germany as she was prior to WWII and was built in a country that was annexed by Germany before 1939 that became a Communist country after WWII.

Hope that makes it clearer.
Mel

[Tiger_mate]

Thanks, now I understand. Still dont know the answer though :ugh:

Clues suggest:

Czechoslovakia or East Germany

Which in turn annexed parts of Hungary and Poland.

So one of four countries, twin piston with steering by mainwheel braking and a freewheeling nose-wheel. Avia (type unknown) perhaps?

[MReyn24050]

The German designer of the aircraft of origin was located in a part of Germany that became within East Germany at the end of WWII and during the war it was manufactured in Czechoslovakia and a second country of German occupation. However the aircraft shown in the photograph was a later version built in the second country.

It was a twin piston with steering by mainwheel braking but with a castering tail-wheel.

Mel

[RETDPI]

Have you told them yet about a bit of one built in France being used on the recent museum rebuild?

[Tiger_mate]

A name that repeats itself often on my research is 'Bloch'

Could this be an MB220?

The designer fits the clues even though he later became 'Dassault'.

[MReyn24050]

RETDPI
You mean the aircraft of a similar type number one used to rebuild a version of the aircraft built by the Czech manufacturer to bring it up to flying condition?
Tiger_mate
This aircraft was built by France but not by Bloch, it is not the MB220.
mel

[RETDPI]

I don't think it is going to be up to flying condition. :)

Wasn't the French name the same as that a British aircraft built by Miles?

[MReyn24050]

I am only going what the photographer stated when posting his photograph. The French name was as you say the same as a Miles aircraft.

Will be off line for a few hours.
Mel

[evansb]

The SNCAC NC.702 Martinet.

[MReyn24050]

evansb has it :ok: :D . It is the The SNCAC NC.702 Martinet.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/SNACNC.jpg
The SNCAC NC.702 Martinet has its origins on a German aircraft, Siebel 204, powered by twin Argus engines with two-bladed propellers, it accomplished its first flight in 1941, its principal role was aircrew training.
In order to preserve the capacity of the German aircraft industry for more essential productions, its manufacture was located in Czechoslovakia and Bourges in France, at the National Company of Aeronautical Engineerings of the Center. After WWII, production began again with the SNCAC. The first “French” specimen was indentified as the NC.700 Martinet equipped with a full nose, it was followed by the NC.701 with an entirely glazed nose. Major modification compared to Siebel being replacement of the Argus engines with Renault 12S-00 engines driving three-bladed propellers. although some did fly with the Argus engines.
The NC.702 version differs from the NC.701 by a modified cabin and a full nose.
You have control.

[evansb]

Thanks Mel. Here is the next challenge.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/0429.jpg

[MReyn24050]

The inflatable wing aircraft, produced by ML Aviation Ltd in the mid-1950s as the Utility. Three aircraft were built (XK776, XK781 and XK784) perhaps?
Mel

[evansb]

Mel, sorry, it is not the ML Aviation Ltd. pneumatic wing aircraft pictured below. The challenge aircraft was, however, built in the 1950s.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/MLwing.jpg

[MReyn24050]

Thanks for that Bri. My response was based on the bathtub shape of the cockpit, but thinking about it logically one would hardly have required an accelerometer on the old "Flying Durex".

[MReyn24050]

Is this aircraft a Powered Glider?

[evansb]

Not a powered glider, but when viewed from certain angles the aircraft does give that impression. Only 12 of the type were built, including all variants. All were involved in testing, development and evaluation.

[India Four Two]

Bri,

The seat belt buckle looks exactly like the ones in Schweizer gliders, so is your challenge from the US?

I42

[evansb]

Simon, Yes, you are correct, it is from the United States of America. The airframe manufacturer is a large American corporation.

It is not a glider.

Airframe section clue #1:
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/Clue2.jpg

[MReyn24050]

Bri
I thought when I proposed the ML Aviation "Flying Durex" that I was on the right lines. This one is I am sure the Goodyear Inflatoplane.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/Inflatoplane_landing.jpg
Mel

[evansb]

Mel, you are spot on!:ok: :D It is indeed Goodyear's answer to a question no one asked! Available in single-place or two-place, tail-dragger or tri-cycle, uni-wheel or hydro-ski. She came in a crate and could be made air-worthy in just a few minutes by a motivated airman.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/goodyear3.jpg
You have control.

[MReyn24050]

Thanks Bri. I guess one would need a pretty big puncture outfit for one of those.
Sorry this one is not too clear.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/Cockpit%20quiz/Cockpitquiz257.jpg
Mel

[windriver]

English - 30's ??

[MReyn24050]

Mid 1930s yes but not English, it is continental.

[MReyn24050]

Over 200 viewers since posted only one challenger. This aircraft first flew mid 1930s. Single seat aircraft advance trainer limited production. European design and manufacture.
Mel

[windriver]

Over 200 viewers since posted only one challenger

Not for want of trying in my case... should I continue searching for French or Italian types in an attempt to find a match?

[LowNSlow]

Is it French? Judging by the size of the gauge on the left of the cockpit it might be steam powered to boot!

[MReyn24050]

It is French but not as suggested :) steam powered.
Mel

[evansb]

A Nieuport Ni 1400 perhaps?

[MReyn24050]

Not the Nieuport Ni 1400 I am afraid.
Mel

[windriver]

Breguet BR420 ?

[MReyn24050]

Sorry windriver not the Breguet BR420 this one was a single seat and single engined aircraft.

[windriver]

OK.. I`ll keep looking.

By the way is that gauge clockwork driven? Is that a key on the casing to wind its workings up? It looks as though it ought to be a bit more exciting than a clock.

[evansb]

Was it built by Morane-Saulnier?

[MReyn24050]

Sorry cannot help you there, I only wish the photograph was clearer.
Mel

[MReyn24050]

Sorry missed your latest. No this aircraft was not designed or built by Morane-Saulnier.
Mel

[MReyn24050]

Recap:- This aircraft first flew mid 1930s. Single engine seat monoplane it was intended as an Advance Trainer however it resulted in limited production in fact less than 20 built. French design and manufacture but not by Breguet, Morane-Saulnier or Nieuport.
Mel

[evansb]

Was it by Potez?

[MReyn24050]

Bri. Sorry not a Potez.
Mel

[evansb]

A Caudron C.690http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/untitled.jpg

[MReyn24050]

:D :ok: That is the one, well done :)

The first prototype flew in early 1936. , The second aircraft flew on the February 18, 1936. Early 1936 the aircraft was demonstrated to air missions from Japan, the USSR and the USA. Both the Soviet Union and Japan purchased an aircraft each. On the 10th May 1937 the first prototype crashed killing the chief test pilot Rene Polan. Despite this accident the French Air Force ordered 15 aircraft.

After the capitulation of France in June 1940, none of these aircraft were fit for service. One aircraft survived after the war and was reinstated on the 12th April 1945 off, however no information is available regarding what happened to this aircraft.

You have control

Mel

[evansb]

Thanks Mel. Perhaps the clock-like gauge on the Caudron's panel is just that, a clock, used for checking elapsed time around the pylons..

Here is the next challenge

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/MellowYellow.jpg

[Tiger_mate]

American

Twin turboprop

Possibly Beechcraft

King Air?

[evansb]

Tiger_mate, Good try, but it is not from Beechcraft's stable.

[MReyn24050]

Dornier 228 perhaps?

[windriver]

Save me looking for more variations on these themes can we rule out
Cessna Conquest and Piper Cheyenne ?

[evansb]

Sorry for the delay, (supper time here..) MReyn24050 is very close. Windriver, sorry, she is not from the United States.

[MReyn24050]

"MReyn24050 is very close"
How about the HAL-Dornier 228 operated by the Indian Navy?
Mel

[evansb]

Mel, it is a Dornier, but not a 228 of any sub-type.

[MReyn24050]

Ok keeping with Dornier how about the Dornier Do 28D/Do 128 Skyservant?

[evansb]

Mel, sorry, not a 28D or a 128.

[MReyn24050]

You have me confused. As far as I am aware Dornier have only produced the following aircraft since 1945.
Do 27 - Which this aircraft is definately not.
Do 28 - Which you say this aircraft is not.
Do 31 - A VTOL Aircraft which this aircraft is not.
Do 128 -Which you say this aircraft is not.
Do 228- Which you say this aircraft is not.
Do 231- A proposal for a VTOL aircraft
Do 328- Which as far as I know had a glass cockpit.
All later Dornier were produced under the ownership of Fairchild.

[evansb]

Mel, this Dornier was rare. It was of composite construction, and was not numbered like other Dornier aircraft. It first flew in 1985.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/claudius.jpg

[treadigraph]

Do you mean the Dornier TNT (I think?)? Think it was around a little ealier, maybe 1982 and resembled the Do228? Can't find any pics, so am relying on very shaky memory here!

[Kitbag]

Dornier Seastar?
Seen here: http://www.dornierseastar.de/info/igallery/igall.html

[evansb]

Kitbag is correct. :ok: Well done.:D The Dornier CD-2 Seastar looks a bit like the Do-18 of the 1930s. Dornier considered relaunching the project. Over to you.

[MReyn24050]

:ok: :D Well done.
Mel

[Kitbag]

As this is my first time you will be gentle with me, won't you? ;)

OK, here goes:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Kitweston/WCMKVNo01.jpg

[treadigraph]

Cor, forgotten about the Seastar, nice one!

[windriver]

British.. Mil.. Early fifties - Off beat??

Short Seamew?

[Kitbag]

Not Brit
Military
Not early fifties (or late fifties either!)

[windriver]

wheeeeeeee.. 1 out of 3. I`m getting the hang of this

[Woods]

WW II, US Navy carrier aircraft?
Woods

[Kitbag]

Yes, yes:*

[windriver]

Grumman
Avenger

[Kitbag]

No, not a Grummans product, this one is a bit bigger.

[pigboat]

Time for a WAG. Curtiss Helldiver?

[Speedpig]

Douglas Dauntless SBD (3 or 5)?

[Kitbag]

:D Indeed it is the Curtiss SB2C Helldiver, sometimes called 'the Beast'. Disliked when introduced to replace the Douglas SBD Dauntless, one squadron commander claimed SB2C stood for 'Son of a Bitch 2nd Class'. Vice Admiral Mitscher actually wanted to bring back his old SBDs back for a while so distrustful of it was he. It did however give sterling work in its later variants.

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Kitweston/WCMKVNo01Answer_SB2C.jpg

Your turn pigboat

[pigboat]

I've got nothing on tap Kitbag. You're doing well, go ahead with another. :ok:

[Kitbag]

OK then, should be quick with you lot

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Kitweston/WCMKVNo02.jpg

[MReyn24050]

Just a WAG the Gloster Meteor III used to test the MB Ejection seats.

[Kitbag]

Good spot re the seat but...

Sorry, not British, and definitely no MB components

[MReyn24050]

How about German. The first use of ejection seat was made by the germans. The Heinkel 162 Salamander (a.k.a. Volksjäger) used the ejection seat.Could it be this one?

[Kitbag]

I believe you're correct about the first use of an ejection seat, but this isn't a He 162

[aviate1138]

Dornier 335 perhaps? Twin in line fighter. Had a prop at the back so the ejector seat helped the pilot clear the 'mincer'
Aviate 1138

[Kitbag]

You have control Aviate :D
Possibly one of the most ungainly German aircraft of the period it is the Do 335 Pfeil. The arrangement of the rear engine and cruciform tail unit, combined with high speed necessitated the use of an ejector seat as well as explosively jettisoning the rear prop blades, and I think, the fin. There are unconfirmed rumours that at least one crashed Pfeil was found with the pilots body still strapped in but missing his arms. The explanation was that to jettison the canopy one had to tightly grasp and operate a couple of handles on the canopy. A combination of a tight hold and high airspeed...:eek:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Kitweston/WCMKVNo02Answer_Do335_Pfeil.jpg

And yes, I do know its been done before, and this example is one captured by the Allies and transported to America for evaluation after the war

[aviate1138]

Thanks Kitbag, however I feel completely out of control as I only have one cockpit to offer and although I can't find it on an old list I have, there have been so many posts since........
Anyway.......
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k35/beejaviate/PpruNecockpit.jpg
Shouldn't take long with the cockpit experts on PpruNe. :)

[MReyn24050]

We have had this one before, however it was sometime ago. Please check your PMs.
Mel

[windriver]

Looks rather too well equipped but worth a punt... Is it a Crop sprayer?

[Kitbag]

Piper Pawnee?

[MReyn24050]

windriver and kitbag
I can asure you that this aircraft was not a crop sprayer and certainly not the Piper Pawnee.
Mel

[Kitbag]

OK, advice received and noted. On reflection, is that windscreen armoured?

[MReyn24050]

Regarding the windshield I think you may well be correct.
Mel

[Kitbag]

Cockpit colour suggests American Military specs, but the instrument panel is non standard- a prototype?

[MReyn24050]

Correct regarding the specs but this particular aircraft was not a prototype.

[Tiger_mate]

Bell P-59 Airacomet
http://www.ffmc.de/modelle/bernd/bernd_P59/01.jpg

[MReyn24050]

It is aviate1138's call but I would say Tiger_mate has it.

[windriver]

Edit...whoops posted too late..

[Tiger_mate]

Next:

http://www.artistic.flyer.co.uk/wotnow.bmp

[MReyn24050]

Know this. please check PMs.
Mel

[Tiger_mate]

Mel; have done :ok: Perhaps you appreciate why I have cropped out the cockpit transparency framework.

[MReyn24050]

Thanks. Good choice, I also appreciate why you have cropped out more than just the cockpit transparency framework.

[forget]

F-104.................

[Kitbag]

Or that AMX thingy?

[Tiger_mate]

Neither I am afraid gents. Mel, I am away from home for the next 24 hours, if the answer comes up please can you confirm it. Clue: The comments ref canopy framework and how easy it could have been is a good clue.

[MReyn24050]

No problem, will be only too pleased to do so.
Mel

[India Four Two]

F-106A Delta Dart?

[Mr_Grubby]

I'm with India Four Two on this one.

A Delta Dart.

G.

[Tiger_mate]

Hav'nt gone yet, and India Four Two has it.

Well done :D :D :D :ok:

[India Four Two]

Mr. G,

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I would also like to thank you for starting this thread. It's given me and many other PPRuNers a lot of fun.

Little did you know what you were starting when you posted that C-46 photo. Over 5700 posts and 230,000 views!

[India Four Two]

Tiger_mate,

Our posts crossed in mid-air, as it were.

Here's a new one:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/WhatCockpitMay6.jpg

[evansb]

Okay, who stole my rudder pedals and my forward visibility?

Is it a STOL/VTOL experimental type?

[India Four Two]

Bri,

Not STOL/VTOL or experimental. I'm sure it has rudder pedals but I cannot do anything about the forward viz :)

[evansb]

5 red warning lights! Is everything okay?

[India Four Two]

Judging by the stories I've read about this aircraft's performance, the warning lights are quite appropriate.

It is clear the pilot's view wasn't considered important:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/whatcockpit6May.jpg

[MReyn24050]

I think we have had this before. It is the Lockheed Y0-3A, the Quiet Aeroplane, is it not?
Mel

[India Four Two]

The Lockheed YO-3A "Quiet Star":

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c309/india42/yo3afly.jpg

Lots of photos and interesting stories here:
http://www.yo-3a.com/history.html

Over to you Mel.

[MReyn24050]

Thanks for that India Four Two. A very interesting website.
Something a little older for a Sunday afternoon.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/Cockpit%20quiz/Cockpitquiz258.jpg
Mel

[windriver]

Is it a 20's British flying boat?
Supermarine Sea Eagle perhaps

[MReyn24050]

It is a 20's British flying boat but not the Supermarine Sea Eagle.
Mel

[pigboat]

Blackburn Iris?

Judging by the bollards, the designers surely didn't want it to easily escape. ;)

[MReyn24050]

:ok: :D It is indeed the Blackburn Iris. I thought the bollards may give it away.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/BlackburnIris.jpg
You have control
Mel

[pigboat]

I'm skint gents so anyone who wants a go, be my guest.

That's a great looking old bird Mel, but Good Lord it must have been a nightmare to rig. :ooh:

I see I'm going to have to rustle up some cockpit pics.

[Tiger_mate]

I'm skint gents so anyone who wants a go, be my guest.

http://www.artistic.flyer.co.uk/bwcpit.jpg

Try this one

[windriver]

British sailpane with water ballast... Slingsby circa 1960?

Anything out of 5?

[Tiger_mate]

1) British
2) sailpane
3) water ballast
4) Slingsby
5) circa 1960?

Anything out of 5?

I'll give you one out of five, which is bound to set the cat amongst the pigeons.

Another clue FWIW, I took the photograph.

[aviate1138]

Minimoa perhaps?


Aviate 1138

Ex owner of an Oly 2b

[Tiger_mate]

Minimoa perhaps?
http://www.jessnicholls.co.uk/images/LET/Minimoa02.jpg

Sadly not:

The trail is really quite cold. I took the photograph yesterday specifically for this forum, and a rare old girl she is.

[aviate1138]

Something like the Chilton Monoplane? That had a Carden Ford water cooled engine - well one of them did I think.

[Dan Winterland]

Well, I was going to say Grunau Baby, but as you said it's a rare old bird, it can't be as more babys were built than any other glider type.

It's got british instruments - the Cosim vario is very British C1950's. It's probably a glider as it's wing down looking at the compass. It doesn't go faster than 130 kts and it has that water guage - which is calibrated in degrees centigrade! I guess the engine instrument we can't see on the left hand side of the panel would give it away.

I'll guess some sort of research aircraft developed from a German glider (the sloping instrument panel is very Grunau Baby), and if it was taken yesterday, close to your home base of Shawbury! I hope that will give the more informed some clues.

[Tiger_mate]

May I refer the honorable gentlemen to post 1360, regarding location.
aviate is warm on the trail.

It is older than the 50's

It is not a research aircraft, although it is unique nowadays. So unique that I am yet to find an image via google, and have subscribed to a modelling forum in the hope of having access to an image.

I hope Damien does not mind his Chilton image being posted. Wish he still contributed to these parts, for his photographs are always quality.
http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/airshow04/ow30s/chilton-winner.jpg
I can see why this was suggested, but sadly not the one.

[kms901]

English Electric Wren ?

[Tiger_mate]

Many similarities to the Wren, and probably just as rare. But I did not visit Shuttleworth yesterday.
http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/airshow02/shuttleoct/wren.jpg
A little research later. 3 Wrens were built and one survives. Many more of the subject aircraft were built, but I believe that it to is the sole survivor. The Wren is a little older than the subject.

[MReyn24050]

B.A.C Drone perhaps?

[windriver]

Kronfield Monoplane

[MReyn24050]

Is not the Kronfield Monoplane and the B.A.C. Drone are the same bird?
As I understand it the British Aircraft Company. (B.A.C.) of Maidstone during the early 1930s built a series of gliders culminating in the B.A.C. VII tandem two-seater. In 1932 they fitted a 600 cc Douglas flat-twin motor cycle engine and an undercarriage to a B.A.C VII glider. I 1933 the designer was killed flying one of the development aircraft. The firm was then taken over by Robert Kronfield and an aircraft with a streamlined engine pylon and renamed the Drone was built and demonstrated. The company was renamed Kronfield Ltd in 1936.

[windriver]

Is not the Kronfield Monoplane and the B.A.C. Drone are the same bird? They could well be...

But that water temperature? gauge suggests a water cooled engine... and the 31 HP Carden Ford seems a likely candidate... in which case there appear to about 6 possible candidates.... make that 5 because this doesn`t look like a Flying Flea.

[aviate1138]

Klemm L25?

Aviate 1138

[Tiger_mate]

I took the precaution of photographing the following:
http://www.artistic.flyer.co.uk/answer.jpg
..and with that in mind, I reckon windriver gets it.

I was at Brooklands yesterday, and enjoyed the Concorde flight.

[MReyn24050]

I give way to windriver.

However, according A J Jackson's British Civil Aircraft Volume I the aircraft is listed as a B.A.C Drone. also a document published by the British Aviation Preservation Council entitled "Aero-Engine Exhibited & Stored in the UK and Ireland" Issue 1 dated 1st May 2003 listing the engine records the following details:- CARDEN FORD, Model C - 1934, 28hp, 1.2lt, 4L, w, 130lb, Unknown marks;Brooklands Museum: BAC Drone G-AEKV.

Great challenge Tiger_mate :ok:

[windriver]

I give way to windriver. .. Thanks, I tried the Brooklands Aviation Museum Website on my travels... and it wasn`t much use, but after going round the houses a few times I had a feeling this was the challenge aircraft.

Anyway here goes.. just happened to have this to hand. At the time this article was written this aircraft had just completed it's first flight.

http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/p908b6.jpg

[Tiger_mate]

So many aircraft of that generation were experimental that this is going to be difficult. However I will put my head above the parapet and suggest:

i) European, probably French.

ii) Monoplane.

iii) circa 1910.

iv) Guestimate at this stage would be a Carid monoplane

[windriver]

So many aircraft of that generation were experimental that this is going to be difficult... Yes ... probably too obscure, so a few clues.

You're right it is 1910
It's English - Wiltshire to be more precise
Aeronautical Syndicate
Tail First
60HP Green

[jabberwok]

Shades of Wagner there.

I was looking at a similar picture only this week so I won't jump in with the answer.

[RETDPI]

No , I wouldn't want to be @rse about face either.

[larssnowpharter]

Hmmm
Wiltshire would indicate Larkhill about then.
Aeronautical Syndicate. Quite a few versions
Could it be a Valkyrie?

[windriver]

:ok: The Valkyrie it is, but would have accepted The "ASL Monoplane" as it was known at the time of this photo. (March 1910)

Caption from another reference on the RAF Museum Website....

"Horatio Barber makes the first cargo flight by Aeronautical Syndicate Ltd when he flies a box of Osram lamps for the General Electric Company from Shoreham to Hove in his Valkyrie monoplane. He is paid £100."

You have control larssnowpharter.

[larssnowpharter]

Thank you. One is unprepared to be successful on one's first attempt in this forum!
By way of introduction - and lacking other material:
Me taking first close up look at a cockpit. Apologies if already done to death:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t295/larssnowpharter/nice2.jpg

[MReyn24050]

De Havilland Hornet for starters perhaps?

[larssnowpharter]

:D :D :D
That didn't last long! Photo taken circa 1953, 45 Sqn, Tengah

You have control MReyn

[MReyn24050]

Thanks for that. Welcome to the forum. Not sure if this was taken at Tengah.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/DHHornet.jpg
Mel

[MReyn24050]

A nice easy one
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/Cockpit%20quiz/Cockpitquiz259.jpg
Mel

[Kitbag]

Another De Havilland?

It looks like a pic from the Vampire F1 pilots notes.
'Course I could be a total prat here:bored:

[MReyn24050]

You are certainly far from being a prat.:ok: It is a photograph of the Instrument Panel from the De Havilland Vampire F1 Pilot's Notes. :D
We have had the Vampire Trainer before but not the F1.
You have control

[Kitbag]

OK, this shouldn't hang around too long either:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Kitweston/CCI00014.jpg

[MReyn24050]

windriver at Post #1402 you state that the aircraft shown at Post#1396 was the Aeronautical Syndicate Ltd's 1910 Valkerie. I am a little confused as on the Early Bird's website the following photographs are published covering three versions of the ASL Valkerie, types A,B and C covering the years 1910-1913. Unless I am very mistaken the aircraft shown at Post #1396 seems not to represent either of the following aircraft types.
ASL Valkerie Type A
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/1910ASLValkerie.jpg
ASL Valkerie Type B
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/1911ASLValkyrieTypeB.jpg
However it could possibly have been a later version of the Type C. Could you please give some further details regarding the photograph you published as the following photograph shows the aircraft to be a single seater?
ASL Valkerie Type C
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/1913ASLTypeC.jpg

[windriver]

Had a feeling this might backfire... standby whilst I go back over my references and get my story straight...

[MReyn24050]

Please check your PMs.
Mel

[Kitbag]

Mel, message received, but you need to clear your inbox:ok:

[MReyn24050]

Action taken accordingly
Mel

[windriver]

MReyn24050 ... Unless I am very mistaken the aircraft shown at Post #1396 seems not to represent either of the following aircraft types.

You are quite correct. The subject photo appears to be a prototype of some sort - it is simply referred to as the "ASL Monoplane" which I suppose was the correct answer and not the Valkerie.

I have subseqently learned that the Aeronautical Syndicate were actually quite prolific (and apparently reasonably successful) with their 'Canard' types of similar design to this proptotype(?) of which the Valkeries appear to be derivatives.

Unlike the Valkeries my example seems to have a nosewheel on the tail....... too confusing .. "it's got wheels on the canard." rather than a full length skid.

However until I find out a bit more it's probably just as well to make the original article available for reference.

Article Here (http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/articles/asl.html)

(I'm probably not ready to solo on What Cockpit without a bit more dual...)

[RETDPI]

As a point of total trivia , some might remember the six wonderful Inpact 1/48th scale kits of Edwardian Aircraft produced in the mid 1960's. ( Bleriot , Box Kite, Deperdussin, Antoinette and Avro Bi and Triplanes IIRC )
There were going to be three more -one of which was to have been the Valkyrie
I don't think it ever appeared.

[MReyn24050]

You wrote:- I'm probably not ready to solo on What Cockpit without a bit more dual...
Not at all your challenge was a great challenge and you were working to the information you had.
As you say the Aeronautical Syndicate were very prolific. If one studies your photograph with the one I posted of the Valkerie Type C there are many similarities in the structure especially of the inverted V struts from the lower structure to the structure under the pilots seat.Having done some research, which is half the fun of this thread, I was intrigued to know where your photograph originated. I understand that there is a replica of the Valkerie in the Florida Museum "Fantasy of Flight" it used to be in "The Cradle of Aviation Museum on Long Island".
On another website I found the following:- "Aeronautical Syndicate Ltd. Formed June 1909 by pioneer Horatio Barber (1875-1964). After building an unsuccessful tractor monoplane the Syndicate became identified with the Valkyrie series of canard (pusher) monoplanes. From Salisbury Plain, Wilts., moved its scene of operations, in September 1910, to Hendon Aerodrome, London, leasing three of the eight hangars belonging to the Bleriot Company. On July 4,1911 the Valkyrie B was used to transport the first air cargo in Britain (a box of Osram lamps). Several Valkyrie canard pushers built. Not easy to fly, but used successfully for training. Early in 1912 twin-propeller Viking biplane built."
So it looks as though the ASL Monoplane shown in your photograph was not a success and possibly it only achievement was the flight of several hundred yards quoted in the Flight article.

Please keep posting.
Mel

[Tiger_mate]

The obvious choice for the subject cockpit is a B36. However I think that it may be older and will therefore opt for a Junkers JU390

[Kitbag]

'Tis older even than the Ju 390, by about 8 years, first flight late 30's

[Tiger_mate]

1929 - Dornier DO X?

NB JU f/flew in 1943 which would suggest the 'subject' dates from 1935??

[windriver]

Can you confirm this aircraft has 6 engines.... At first sight it looks like it should have, but maybe it's a twin and the other levers are for props and mixture or something...

Also it appears to have a glazed nose ...

[MReyn24050]

As kitbag stated this aircraft first flew late 1930s. She was a 4 engined aircraft and the photograph was taken during its construction hence the impression given it had a glazed nose.

[windriver]

For elimination purposes can we discount the Dornier Do26?

[Kitbag]

For elimination purposes we can discount any German airframe

[evansb]

A list of aircraft types posted on this forum was compiled by cringe, in December of 2006. It is available on page 18, thread #352. MReyn24050 added to the list as of March 5th, 2007, and it is available on page 43, thread #847.

Note that cringe's list is nine (9) pages long.

[MReyn24050]

If anyone wants a copy of the list up to today please PM me with their email address and I will forward it.
Mel

[Speedpig]

Mel, does the fact that you have brought our attention to the list of previous aircraft mean that we have had this already?

[MReyn24050]

My post was in response to evansb's post # 1426. Not wishing to spoil the chase, the answer to that question is that it has not appeared since the last update at post #847 on the 5th March 2007.
Mel

[larssnowpharter]

Initially placed as earlier than late 30s. Looks a bit primitive. 4 engines. looked like 6 from the throttles (?). Probably not a boat. Has a US feel to it. Military.

[Kitbag]

Mid 30's design, late 30's first flight.
Not Mil, not US
Less than 6 engines

[windriver]

de Havilland DH91 Albatross?....

(not cross checked against list which is on my other pee cee and it's time for tea)

[Kitbag]

'fraid not, but at least we're in the right country and era now.Getting closer

[windriver]

How about an Armstrong Whitworth 27. Ensign?
(on list, but haven`t peeked at piccy)

[Kitbag]

:D Windriver has it, much to the relief of Mel & Evansbe I think! It is the AW 27 Ensign, one of the prettier products of the marque IMHO:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa154/Kitweston/CCI00015.jpg

Windriver, you have control

[windriver]

Quite a looker I agree...

Whilst I root out a suitable candidate for the next challenge perhaps someone could explain the function of the 6 levers on the throttle pedestal. (4x AW Tiger 9C 14 cylinder Radials)

[MReyn24050]

Not at all well done windriver :ok:
Since the thread was started by Mr_Grubby there have been 685 challenges of which only 36 have been repeated. I appreciate that it is difficult for new posters to come up with new challenges but believe me there are still plenty of aircraft not yet proposed. With the help of 'cringe' I have been able to keep a list of aircraft proposed to date. Unfortunately I have no means of posting this for easy access but I am more than willing to provide the information on request.
Mel

[windriver]

Surprsingly this hasn`t appeared before....

http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/u87po9.jpg

[MReyn24050]

Looks like a Rotary wing aircraft to me.
Mel

[ZH875]

Could it be a Scout (or Wasp)?

or Skeeter?

[windriver]

Halfway there.. it is a rotary winged aircraft, but not a Scout Wasp or Skeeter.

[MReyn24050]

Bristol Belvedere perhaps?

[windriver]

:cool: Yes the Bristol 192 Belvedere - 2 x 1,465hp Napier Gazelle

http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/belvedere.jpg

You have.

[MReyn24050]

Thanks windriver, great find. Unfortunately back in the past again I am afraid with this one.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/Cockpit%20quiz/Cockpitquiz212.jpg
Mel

[Kitbag]

Its either the inside of an Oscar class submarine conning tower :} or an airship. R33 perhaps?

[windriver]

No its got to be that ugly French thing... like a hangar with wings... can`t remember the name though..Farman F.121 Jabiru?

[larssnowpharter]

Mel;

thanks for the photo of the Hornet. I sent it on to my father who flew them in Malaya with the question of 'what airfield'. He thinks probably not Tengah; more likely to be Butterworth.

[MReyn24050]

kitbag.
No she was an aircraft not an airship.
Windriver
This bird was not French.
Mel

[MReyn24050]

You are more than welcome. Some interesting photographs on this web site,including one of the presentation of colours to 45 Sqn at RAF Tengah.
http://www.dhhornet50.net/index.php?f=data_home&a=0
Mel

[Kitbag]

Mr Sikorskys big winged thing? Ilya Mourametz. (Might be getting the two confused but you know what I mean).

Edited to say: I didn't know what I meant! I was thinking of the Tupolev ANT 20

[Akubra]

Dornier Do.X?

[MReyn24050]

kitbag
This one was not a Russian aircraft.
Akruba
She was not the Dornier Do.X

Whilst the cockpit layout suggests a large aircraft believe it or not this aircraft was a single engined aircraft.

[windriver]

Would you recommend I continue searching for Italian aircraft of the twenties in an effort to meet this challenge?

[MReyn24050]

Not Italian, this aircraft had at least one thing in common with the Dornier Do.X.

[larssnowpharter]

Dornier Delphin?

[MReyn24050]

larssnowpharter has it :ok: :D. It is the Dornier Delphin.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/Aircraft/dorn_delphin.jpg
In 1920 Dornier produced the first Delphin commercial flying-boat. The first versions, the L.1 and L.1a, had a high open pilot's cockpit aft of the 138kW BMW IlIa or 134kW BMW III engine, but the later L.2 and L.3 versions had seating for two in front of the passenger cabin. Power for these versions was provided by a 186.3kW BMW IV or 194kW Rolls-Royce Falcon III and a 447kW BMW VI engine respectively. The Delphin L.2 accommodated up to seven passengers (one next to pilot). The L.3 could carry up to 13 and was built in Switzerland by the Aktiengesellschaft for Dornier-Flugzeuge at Altenrhein.

You have control
Mel

[larssnowpharter]

Thank you, Mel.
I had the great pleasure of of flying in Iren Dornier's (grandson of the man) Do 24 ATT a couple of years back in the Philippines.
I will be away for a few days but leave you with this which I am sure will cause no problems. Mel, could I ask that you referee, please. Apologies if it has been seen before.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t295/larssnowpharter/big.jpg

[MReyn24050]

No problem will be only too pleased. Please check your PMs.
Mel

[Final 3 Greens]

8 turning, none burning.

Has to be the Hercules, aka Spruce Goose.

[MReyn24050]

In response to larssnowpharter's last. It is indeed the Hughes Spruce Goose.:ok:
Final 3 Greens you have control.
Mel

[Speedpig]

Has to be the Hercules, aka Spruce Goose.

Absolutely no doubt whatever.

[windriver]

Here's one to be going on with.. Final Three Greens I owe you a go.

http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/832.jpg

[evansb]

Is it a Tipsy Nipper, with the remarkable Mr. Ernest Tips at the imaginary controls?

[windriver]

:ok: About as different to the HK1 as it gets!

http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/nipper.jpg

Martin Tips displays the fuselage framework of the Fairey Tipsy Nipper.
Flight 16/01/1959

You have....

[evansb]

Thankyou. Here is a photo of a Tipsy Nipper's instrument panel:

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/nipper.jpg

[evansb]

This cockpit challenge shouldn't last too long..
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/nissan.jpg

[Kitbag]

Can't decide whether the prop in the left hand w/s has a brightly marked root (why?) or tip.

[evansb]

Kitbag, that is for you to decide. Please check out the background for additional clues.

[windriver]

I have no idea what this is, but the there that "prop" seems to be telling us something?? I thought prop safety markings should only be applied to the front of the prop and not visible from the cockpit.... and it doesn`t even look as if it's attached to this aircraft anyway.

It looks like it could be a rotary wing though.. but the cockpit layout doesn`t seem to support that idea...

[evansb]

Post #1456 has a similar propellor configuration. There is pescious little new under the sun.

[Nardi Riviera]

Immediate thought was a pull-type amphibian.

But I've never seen any with the engine/prop so far forward. The Czech Mermaid is designed like that, but with metal hull and prop further aft than this one.

This looks like a brand new type, and being an old-timer I don't know these modern composite thingies too well. Ultralight?

As to the background clue - can only see some vintage crafts. :confused:

[windriver]

If we could identify the aircraft in the background would that give a clue to the manufacturer?

Eastern European.. Czech.. Polish

[Nardi Riviera]

Don't think so. I mentioned the Mermaid because it was the first one with a pull-type prop that came to mind. But is not the answer as it is all-metal and this one seems to be composite.

New ultralights are not on the top of my list of interests...

[paulc]

Aircraft on the left looks like the EAA Ford Trimotor ? - maybe from Oshkosh.
Seawind 3000 ?

[evansb]

Sorry, it is not a Seawind 3000. This aircraft was last seen "accepting orders" at a North American Aviation Trade Show and Exposition in 2004,
set in Florida. Was it the "Sun & Fun"?

[Nardi Riviera]

Have deleted Seawind and Searey and others from the list already. :8

This one is quite small.

Wonder what that orange lever/handle below right panel is for.

Hey - this IS History & Nostalgia, right???

[evansb]

Nardi Riviera, Yes, the aircraft is history. Series production did not take place. The original patent holders/owners sold the rights to a company that has subsequently shut down. The future is therefore, in hiatis, and awaiting financial backing. The aerodynamics are sound, as is the engine, and the company had a graceful low-wing monoplane planned for production just prior to the cessation of support.

History? It was the thing that just happened.
Nostalgia? It is what you hoped happened..

[windriver]

Is this design suitable/available for homebuilders?

Nostalgia? It is what you thought happened.. How true

[Nardi Riviera]

"History? It is was the thing that just happened."

What a nice and perfect way to put it.

Kinda curious what this bird's body looks like. :O

[evansb]

windriver, it was planned to be suitable for both the amateur-builder, and factory produced and certified. The power-plant was certainly well-known to the amateur-builder.

[Nardi Riviera]

Sorry if I offended you, evansb. Been stuck in OLDER history, of course.

Would'a been interesting to see all of it, as the prop was placed far forward.
(Now that it is recent history and may be hard to stumble across...) :uhoh:

BTW - enjoyed your vast number of photos in another thread.

[evansb]

Here is a portion of the mystery ship:
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/sigma-2.jpg

[windriver]

Flightstar Spyder, IISL ?
or
Phantom 2

[evansb]

windriver, sorry, not the Flightstar Spyder. The mystery aircraft was a bit more substantial.

See Thread #1482.

[windriver]

Or the Phantom?

I`ve exhausted the EAA links... Guessing it's Rotax powered with a tail boom.

[evansb]

Two-place, Rotax powered, tail-boom type aft-fuselage. Ask away...

[evansb]

The aircraft is not from North America, nor is it from Great Britain. The aircraft was developed in 2002.
The airframe complies with European JAR VLA standards. The airframe is metal, with a totally enclosed fiberglass cockpit. Floats and skis were an available option. Max. speed was listed as 124-mph. It is not Czech or Polish.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/sigma1.jpg

[windriver]

Thanks... just getting into my stride when work got in the way and interrupted my flow....

Just confirm it's not a Phantom... There's only 2 I found with that configuration.... PFA next

[evansb]

windriver, not a Phantom.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/mybaby.jpg

[Nardi Riviera]

Awww, so not an amphib. Wonder then why placing the prop so high? Interesting VLA though. (Gotta get used to these modern thingies, yeah I know they often have better performance than old standard a/c...)

Have hailed a friend expert on homebuilds, who visits Sun n Fun practically every year. Hang on for another hour, to see if he recognises the critter.

Thanks evansb for exercising our "gray matter" so well!

[Nardi Riviera]

OK, my friend had noticed it at Sun n Fun.

He could not recall the name, but believed it was either German or Italian.

Hit the web, guys! :8

[Tiger_mate]

Looks like a variation of this:
http://www.comco-ikarus.de/images/c22/c22cs_down.jpg
Ikarus

[windriver]

Before today I was never aware that such a configuration existed in this class of aircraft... I've found at least 6 similar types on my travels.. but not the model in question sadly....

It's a voyage of discovery .....

[Nardi Riviera]

The prop placement looks identical. Gee, never even knew something like that was invented yet.

But the doors and fuselage are different from evansb previous pic. What nationality is your Ikaros?

Back to the drawing board!

[windriver]

It would be handy to know some weights... is this an Ultralight?

[Tiger_mate]

What nationality is your Ikaros?


Comco Ikarus GmbH
Flugplatz Mengen
D - 88367 Hohentengen
Germany

[Nardi Riviera]

My friend believed it was German or Italian. Now you may have provided the answer.

The model evansb gave us was never produced, but same placement of powerplant/prop suggest a relation.

Thanks, all!

Edit 1:
Seems to have been in the UL category.

Edit 2:
In them older days such high placement of powerplant was used solely on amphibs to prevent drawing waterspray into prop because they sit low in the water.

Curious as to why this is used on a land plane. Maybe some aerodynamic gain?

[evansb]

The challenge aircraft was marketed with much optimism by Great American Aircraft of Chicago, Illinois. The aircraft was featured on the front cover of Popular Mechanics magazine a couple of years ago.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r68/convair640/popularmechanics.jpg

[windriver]

Got to be the Great American Aircaft Sigma


http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/sigma.jpg

Interesting engine out I`d imagine....

[evansb]

windriver is spot on:ok: :D Last supported by Elitar of Russia, the Samara Sigma seems to have disappeared from the world of general aviation.

You have control.