Agreed, as Skipness correctly explains, British Airways Express was a completely separate entity to Cityflyer Express who are wholly owned by BA and therefore not a franchise but a sub division, our franchise airline CEO pointed out at the time that the regional product was becoming very difficult for the <70 seat market in the mid 90s as the public were by then able to fly 2hr sectors to the Med for forty quid and this was becoming the norm, while we were still trying to sell flights in the £300 price range for sub 2hr sectors and at the same time, bizarrely, facing competition from BA, the Franchise owner.

The LCCs have now defined the going rate pricewise for short haul and the views of our (ex BA) CEO at the time were that a niche operation, point to point, in the regional market can only survive if there is no competition on a particular route and can set the fares accordingly, BA clearly weren't prepared to compete in that market and sold the remaining franchise, BA Connect, to Flybe.

BA Cityflyer operates mainly out of LCY and thus ticks the no competition box, while the question remains, on which routes will Flybe be able to make money?

Actually, I don't fully agree with all the above. 1/ for the sake of getting it right, CityFlyer Express was originally completely privately owned and operated through the 90s as a BA franchisee. It was only sold to BA around 2001 (I am hazy on the dates as the sale was referred to the (then called) MMC and took a considerable time to go through. 2/ CityFlyer demonstrated that it was possible for a regional to go head to head with a loco. the best example being Gatwick Dublin where it operated toe to toe with Ryanair and due to a combination of good scheduling and the power of the BA brand and the Executive Club did very well.

Thank you Jamie 2009 for trying to bring something positive to this debate and for showing some support for the people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own.
There was more to Flybe than just UK domestic flying and what has saddened me since Covid struck is the way in which the likes of Air France and KLM UK managed to continue to make inroads into the UK market from their own end. KLM seem to be operating into most UK regional airports and have been able to continue to do so and protect their rights on these routes thanks to government bailouts or Government ownership (AF) whilst UK gov just left things to rot. I really hope that the new Flybe manages to take the fight back to these near Europe competitors and finds a way to take on their higher cost base fuel guzzling old jets and mainline contract crews with a much leaner high frequency model.
Without getting into the profitability of each route argument, let's remember that as well as the French regional holiday destinations, at the time of going out of business, Flybe operated from UK regional airports to HAJ, TXL, GRQ, AMS, DUS, LUX, STR, MXP, CDG, LYS, CFR, RNS, EGC, DUB. Wouldn't it be nice if a true UK airline could be supported and helped to at least offer some resistance against the Euro giants.

It would be lovely if regional networks could be revived... but it seems the general public just don't want to pay enough for these flights to be sufficiently profitable, especially when there is no long haul connection involved

There is a good argument for public subsidy to connect offshore island to a medium sized airport on a mainland... but difficult to argue for a subsidy of Birmingham-Hannover

KLM and the companies now part of KLC were operating into most of their regional destinations before BE were thought of. Most flights are on relatively new EMB's - hardly 'fuel guzzling old jets'. Most of BE's flying to AMS and CDG was AF/KL code shares.

owned by an American Venture capital company, so where will any profits go?

Fair point SWBKCB but I think I am just very frustrated that one way or another, UK aviation is slowly being driven into the ground. I just think there is a space for Flybe to push back into the market without necessarily hurting the likes of Loganair. There has been much focus on domestic flying recently and the problems Flybe 2 will have in a smaller market up against Easy, Ryan and Wizz but maybe there is a chance that the new management team are able to form new relationships codeshares ACMI deals etc and create themselves a new niche market.

They have been sitting on a lot of historical route data and probably know what will work assuming they can get the right deals. I am just disappointed that there is so much negativity when no one really knows what the plan is. Even if Flybe ended up with some of its old codeshare arrangements on some of its former routes, at least a few more jobs would be re-created at this end of the line and that has to be a good thing.

Codeshares and ACMI deals are still difficult to make work. Look at Cityjet. Barely turning a profit and they have a large deal with SAS and had Brussels Airlines.

Just in recent times others like Nordica, Cimber, Great Dane, Jettime and Stobart who all followed a similar path are gone. Flybe1 also tried it and made a mess of it with Flybe Nordic.

Equally short haul codeshares often mean the short flight carrier gets barely anything once it is divided between the operating carriers.

The old data is exactly that. Old. The market is completely different nearly two years on. Plenty of companies are now putting it into their rules that domestic flying is banned, the busier routes have more competition now and brexit will inevitably have an effect on numbers going to second homes in France etc.

There are some gaps in the market. If they can control their costs operating from UK regions to German hubs and sharing with Lufthansa might help but BMI Regional did that and are not here now.

UK-Scandinavia still has some gaps, especially with Norwegian reduced. The Q400 could help to connect smaller Norwegian cities and Denmark.

It would be nice to see them do well but the odds are overwhelmingly against them. They need to find a niche. Scotland/highlands is already well served and Flybe lost that battle last time. They could take on the Channel Islands. Aurigny loses money constantly. Blue Islands has struggled in the past. And it would return to their roots. On the other hand it’s still a small market.

Northern Ireland could be another target. Belfast was apparently a strong base for them before. But IAG have been busy there with BACF operating services.

The South west is another spot but Eastern got the PSO for Newquay and the other routes are small.

The only other option I can see is to go big and take on the other carriers. Someone will lose and we’ll find out who has the deepest pockets or the richest sugar daddy.

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...0895062282240/

I don't think anyone knows what they've got planned so we will just have to wait and see - can't be long now.

Surely they've let future staff know their intentions and given a rough indication of what their airline may look like?

BA318

I would be very interested in reading your reference for this, if you have a link to share please.

At the risk of sounding petty, I don't think that E&Y update is right when they proclaim Flybe will be the first ever UK airline rescued from insolvency. European went through a CVA and I'm sure there were several airline runs through insolvency in the mid/late 1980s including Air Ecosse and BAF. It subsequently ended in tears in all three cases at a later date, but I'm absolutely sure that statement is not correct.

Local Variation

I’m going on what me and friends have from our workplaces. My organisation doesn’t allow domestic flights for any corporate travel. My wife’s company has the same restrictions.

A Wikipedia article also states that the BBC bans staff flying if the journey can be done in under 3 hours by train. It also gives the GLA and Environment Agency as examples. Fintech company Klarna also bans flying for staff on work travel. It’s fast spreading in corporations to improve their eco credentials.

cavokblues

Nope, can’t be long before they reveal all though

BA318

Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland cannot be done in under 3 hours on train.
London to Scotland or vice versa cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Southampton to Manchester or Scotland or vice versa cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Newquay to any domestic Flybe destination cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.

Not sure why the "3 hours by train" argument is even being brought up. That's also dependant on times and availability of train tickets, which are often more expensive than domestic air fares, and with many train operators running reduced services.

Thats just one example. My point was the market is changing. More and more organisations are stopping their staff from flying and domestic flights are the first target. The cost often doesn’t matter. Just like companies which ban business or first class tickets even when they can sometimes be cheaper than last minute economy tickets.

UK Plc companies are all keen to attract investors to buy their shares. The big buyers of shares are pension funds and life insurers, who now all tend to make some sort of reference to ESG criteria - ie Environmental, Social, Governance. If your company is deemed to be bad, many pension funds simply won't touch you. A company can improve its ESG score (and yes, there are consultants giving out ESG scores) by ticking green boxes. Allowing flights under 3 hours may be more effective for specific employees... but it messes up the company's ESG rating to the detriment of pension fund interest. Unless the firm is deemed exceptionally ESG evil (eg tobacco or weapons companies), the CEO of a plc will care about improving the ESG rating to keep the share price high... and never mind a few employees being slightly less productive. I know the BBC is not on the stock exchange... but there are enough people watching the BBC very carefully, waiting to make a fuss if it does something deemed bad.

Not great news if you are an ultra-short-haul airline pilot competing against road and/or rail... but that's the way things are now

France is adopting a no domestic flying under 3hr approach, difference being the vast size of the country and you can quite easily travel from Paris to Marseille on TGV in around 3 hrs, unlike the U.K. where it takes 6 long hours on Cross Country from SOU-MAN. The French have the rail infrastructure to make it work!

Funnily enough most railway networks radiate from the capital, so comparing with a cross country route is a bit apples and pears.

However, my organisation banned domestic flights except to NI a couple of years ago, and we used to be regular users of the BE Newcastle-Exeter route. No way I'm doing that on the train. Slow, noisy, uncomfortable, crowded

I’m not sure it takes 6 hours SOU-MAN by train, more like 4.5 hours but even compared to France this is a long time for the distance involved I agree. The other examples given above regarding MAN -Scotland journey times are in the region of 3 hr 15 mins plus so not too great, given the rolling stock is now mostly new intercity units much more comfortable compared with an old tatty dash 8, and city to city connections compared with Flybe.
As other contributors have pointed out, many Flybe routes have been replaced by other operators such as EZY on many former MAN routes, I understand other operators such as Blue islands, Loganair and Aurigny have also taken over BE routes too so I wouldn’t expect them to give up without a fight.

The reality is that the real cost to the economny may be having someone senior unavailable to work as they're changing trains more than once or twice to see a client and on a billable accounts that's dead time! So the cheaper and more efficient option is flying, and we all know it happens. Especially in competitive and fast moving businesses, the notion that substantial deals and new business are clinched over Zoom is a media creation. The same pension funds and eco credentialists which davidjohnson6 speaks are the same Davos set who arrived at COP26 in Gulfstreams and Global Expresses. Finance teams always frowned on business expenses per se, flying is just the most virtue signalling example. In the real world, no CEO wants his staff trapped on the Hell that is Mainline Rail for too much of their time. They really, really don't. We're not France, we don't have TGV from Scotland to Southampton or Cardiff.

Alternatively they work on the train uninterrupted for however long with plugin power, WiFi, 4 or even 5g and arrive for their meeting fully prepared.

Time on a train is only dead time if choose that.

And these are the same big pension funds that can't wait to invest your money in China! I also have to listen this ESG crap every day in my business, when big business and governments decide that China and Russia and some other countries are to be wary of, then I'll start to believe that they are sincere in what they say. But at the minute, it's all nothing more than to look good. The term is "greenwashing".

BA318

Whilst Jersey has an Open Skies policy Guernsey does not and would require flybe to apply for route licences, cant imagine SoG would give Flybe licences that would then burn their own airline. GoJ and Ports of Jersey have both been fairly supportive of Blue Islands locally and seemingly invested a large amount of money into them... how supportive they would be of Flybe turning back up in Jersey is questionable too.

That really depends if the capacity that was lost through the demise of Flybe has been fully replaced. There is more to the equation than just the airlines and airports, the major factor has got to be to have sufficient capacity available to ensure that the hotel, B&B and holiday home rental sector is fully serviced, and that's before you start on the dubious "off shore" companies that use particularly Guernsey as a base for tax avoidance - they will require regular well timed air connections to the UK mainland, and not just to London (there are businesses based beyond the M25 I believe!).

Both Guernsey and Jersey have a bit of a lack of Hotel / B&B accommodation as was discovered in the Summer, certainly in Jersey with the Jet2 / Easyjet / BA flights. Both Blue Islands and Aurigny offer the flights outside of London with BA and Easyjet covering the london airports. I would be very surprised if there was capacity for Flybe or even the want for them. They had like in most parts of the U.K a fairly poor reputation in the Channel Islands, and whilst loved as JEA certainly not so as Flybe. Whilst Blue Islands doesn't always far to well re reputation, for the most part its appreciated as the local airline doing its best and you most certainly cant say a bad word about Aurigny in Guernsey without fear of being mobbed by the locals, they really do love their state owned airline... and why not?

Seems to be online rumours of some kind of launch announcement shortly - possibly as early as tomorrow.

… I suspect most have lost interest. Launch or not, this is going to be a flop would be my prediction. Don’t believe everything you read on Twitter

Now official - Birmingham will be FlyBe's new HQ creating hundreds of jobs :-)

Over three years, 600 jobs, 200 of which will be at BHX - according to the BBC story this has been "pledged" - a journalistic term that actually mean diddly-squat. One assumes that these figures are for direct employees and take no account of ancillary jobs created in suppliers such as passenger handling, maintenance and the like.

Start date looks to be spring 2022 - let the sweepstake open on likely routes!

Flybe has today announced that Birmingham Airport will be its new company headquarters and first new crew base.

Flybe will serve regions across the UK and EU with operations scheduled to begin in early 2022. Birmingham Airport’s Diamond House will be the location of the company’s new HQ and Operations Centre, in a move that is expected to create around 200 new jobs in the Birmingham and West Midlands region over the next three years, with an estimated additional 400 direct jobs to be created nationwide.

The news follows the April sale of the business and assets of Flybe Ltd (in administration, now renamed FBE Realisations Ltd) to Thyme Opco Limited (now renamed Flybe Limited).

Flybe CEO Dave Pflieger said: “We are thrilled to be partnering with Birmingham Airport (BHX), the City of Birmingham, and the Mayor of West Midlands to make BHX the location of our new headquarters and first crew base. It was an ideal choice for us due to its great people and highly skilled workforce, its central UK location, and the fact that Birmingham Airport is a global travel hub where local and connecting customers have access to over 150 worldwide destinations. Today’s announcement marks the culmination of over 12 months of dedicated hard work by all involved, and it would not have been possible without the support of the CAA and the UK Government.”

Andy Street, Mayor of West Midlands, said: “It really is such brilliant news that Flybe is coming back as a commercial airline, and even better that it has chosen Birmingham to house its new headquarters.

“Not only does this mean better domestic and international connectivity for our region as well as local jobs and opportunities being created here, but it’s yet another show of faith in the West Midlands with businesses choosing to commit to our region as we recover from the pandemic.

“Flybe’s choice highlights the strength of the aerospace sector in the West Midlands and the talent pool available, and I wish Dave and his team all the very best ahead of their official launch early next year.”

Nick Barton, chief executive, Birmingham Airport, added: “Flybe’s announcement that Birmingham has been chosen to become the headquarters for its launch next spring is fantastic news for our region’s connectivity needs, and it will bring with it some great new employment opportunities. Dave’s vast experience in managing start-up airlines and turnaround situations, coupled with the recovery of the Midlands’ economy post-Covid, means that Flybe’s return to the skies from Birmingham is a shot in the arm for our airport as well as West Midlands businesses and communities. We look forward to working with Dave and his team in preparation for next spring and to launch such a well-known brand here in Birmingham.”

Pflieger added: “I also want to emphasise that a key area of focus from day one for Flybe will be environmental sustainability and ensuring we do everything possible to reduce our carbon footprint and GHGs. Our entire fleet will be comprised of the De Havilland Canada Dash 8-400, which is a fast turboprop powered aircraft that can complete short journeys almost as quickly as a regional jet, but with lower CO2 emissions. In addition, we will also be partnering with local community charities and partners who are focused on the environment as well as other causes which align with our corporate goals and values.

“As for what’s next, please stay tuned. We plan to provide more information in the coming weeks and months about ticket prices, new routes and destinations, and other important news that will help customers visit loved ones, get away for a weekend, and get out on business trips. This is an incredibly exciting time for us, and we look forward to sharing more updates in the future.”

So why have you singled out Guernsey "that's before you start on the dubious "off shore" companies that use particularly Guernsey as a base for tax avoidance"

The latest scoring by the Tax Justice Network lists the worse being

4th Netherlands
5th Switzerland
6th Luxembourg
8th Jersey
11th Ireland
13th UK
16th Belgium
17th Guernsey

So perhaps you want to stick to comments about routes and carriers and less about what you don't know about.

Im going to put BHX-BHD in the hat along with BHD-GLA. Just for starters. I think they will start low and slow and build up market share.......or just crash and burn as the loser in the inevitable price war.

I think you're right. The new jobs figure (200 for BHX and 400 elsewhere) are over 3 years, suggesting organic rather than meteoric growth.

If crewing logistics permit I would add GLA and EDI to EMA. Both long standing routes that go right back to when EMA opened, but have been unserved since March 2020.

Loganair on the charm offensive to counter todays announcement.

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jonat...840907264-1qrr

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/kay-r...897514496---jK

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/david...365745664-SpQV

I think it’s reasonable to assume that if EMA-GLA/EDI were still viable, Loganair would be flying them.

ATNotts

They did really well with British Midland on the DC9 with a business friendly schedule once upon a time but that was a different world. It went to the Embraer, then B737 with BMI Baby and then assorted other carriers but road and rail is the preffered option nowadays. Likewise GLA/EDI-LBA.

I suspect the fact that Rolls-Royce as one of the major corporate mainstays on EMA/GLA for several decades now has around 8,000 fewer employees in the UK after the pandemic will have something to do with the route's continued absence today. Flybe had ditched the routes - and they'd been taken up by Loganair - before their demise and it's hard to see what would be different this time around if Flybe were to put Q400s back on them.

Jamie2009

Well, if you were hoping to read “Flybe have opened a new office, so we’re shutting up shop”, you were always going to be disappointed.

Just looks like standard Loganair posts from the last 18 months to me.

Three expertly prepared posts released in short order and then the leadership comment on each others posts almost instantly is clearly coordinated.

Eco credentials will be a big advertising point… Doesn’t the EMB145 use roughly 50% more fuel for 30 less seats and only a few minutes quicker than a Q400.

Obviously the ATR is a very economical and reliable aircraft

Not unusual really, they’re all pretty active on LinkedIn.

As for eco credentials, the ATR is more fuel efficient than the Q400 for not that much time difference on U.K. domestic routes.