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It makes it very very messy if they have a separate handling agent in each airport. SWISSPORT for example could have offered a nationwide very competitive rate for handling but I would ssy they looking a very sizeable bond to be put in placd first after the financial carnage the previous collapse caused.
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Let's not forget Warwick Brady is now CEO at Swissport.
Irrespective of the past, there's little to no love to be had there I'd imagine. |
inOban
Indeed, whatever you call it, or however it is set up, creditors of Flybe Mk.1 will likely be looking to claw back some of the debt from Flybe Mk.2, and frankly, who can blame them. I'm sure that this will have been factored in by the new management and financiers; they aren't commercial novices with no previous experience in the world of business. |
Albert Hall
The original Flybe have operated the route in past. |
But did it make money for them?
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Up for sale already
According to tomorrow’s Telegraph, the hedge fund behind Flybe is planning to sell it before the carrier carries its first passengers.
It mentions a proposed two stage plan where Flybe will operate with its new buyer for a year before becoming part of them. It says they have sounded out Blue Islands and Aurigny as potential buyers and could ask for up to £45m for the airline. Cyrus Capital declined to comment. |
This will all end in tears.....
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Originally Posted by JSCL
(Post 11151773)
Let's not forget Warwick Brady is now CEO at Swissport.
Irrespective of the past, there's little to no love to be had there I'd imagine. |
Originally Posted by milleriom
(Post 11151980)
Love or a lack of it has nothing to do with any major business decisions like that.
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Originally Posted by milleriom
(Post 11151980)
Love or a lack of it has nothing to do with any major business decisions like that.
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Originally Posted by BA318
(Post 11151885)
According to tomorrow’s Telegraph, the hedge fund behind Flybe is planning to sell it before the carrier carries its first passengers.
It mentions a proposed two stage plan where Flybe will operate with its new buyer for a year before becoming part of them. It says they have sounded out Blue Islands and Aurigny as potential buyers and could ask for up to £45m for the airline. Cyrus Capital declined to comment. |
Exactly what would you get for your £45m - other than getting rid of a potential competitor?
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Originally Posted by BA318
(Post 11151885)
According to tomorrow’s Telegraph, the hedge fund behind Flybe is planning to sell it before the carrier carries its first passengers.
It mentions a proposed two stage plan where Flybe will operate with its new buyer for a year before becoming part of them. It says they have sounded out Blue Islands and Aurigny as potential buyers and could ask for up to £45m for the airline. Cyrus Capital declined to comment. |
Originally Posted by Jamie2009
(Post 11152011)
Where did this come from? Can’t see it in the Telegraph🤷♂️
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Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11152009)
Exactly what would you get for your £45m - other than getting rid of a potential competitor?
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Originally Posted by Fletch
(Post 11151823)
But did it make money for them?
Their aircraft is due in LPL from BHX this afternoon. |
Fund manager plots to sell airline Flybe
A MAYFAIR financier who co-owns Pizza Express is plotting the £45m sale of Flybe before the revived regional airline carries its first passenger. Lucien Farrell, the media-shy hedge fund manager who bought the Flybe assets from administrators, has contacted investors to offload the business. Mr Farrell's advisors have researched prospective bidders with a two-stage plan, according to email correspondence seen by The Daily Telegraph. Central to the sale are Flybe's lucrative take-off and landing slots at Heathrow airport, which Flybe inherited when British Airways bought BMI in 2012. It is envisaged that Flybe will operate in partnership with the prospective new owner for around a year before the business is sold. It is thought that Mr Farrell's advisers have sounded out airlines such as Blue Islands and Guernsey, which fly to the Channel Islands. Last week Flybe announced that it would relaunch from Birmingham airport in March 2022. Mr Farrell's Cyrus Capital has endured a long battle to restart the airline after buying it from administrators EY in 2020. He managed to overturn a decision by Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, to revoke Flybe's operating licence in June, paving the way for the airline to be revived. A spokesman for Mr Farrell declined to comment. |
Some questionable journalism in that article.
Central to the sale are Flybe's lucrative take-off and landing slots at Heathrow airport, which Flybe inherited when British Airways bought BMI in 2012. Considering they don't own these slots I'm not sure how they're intending to sell them. He managed to overturn a decision by Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, to revoke Flybe's operating licence in June, paving the way for the airline to be revived No such thing happened. The new airline always had a OL. They failed to transfer the Heathrow slots over from the old airline to the new one. |
Originally Posted by southamptonavgeek
(Post 11152063)
The sentence about the OL is obviously coming from somebody who is not familiar with the fact that a new one has been granted. I also presume that "Guernsey" is referring to Aurigny in this context.
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Why does Esken keep going round and round in my head?
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Originally Posted by DC3 Dave
(Post 11152117)
Why does Esken keep going round and round in my head?
Though while could be possibly Cityjet could be interested in flybe if their backers falko and fortress would be willing put in Money to buy it |
Originally Posted by DC3 Dave
(Post 11152117)
Why does Esken keep going round and round in my head?
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Probably the wrong forum for this, but I was recently told that FlyBe 2.0 were paying their line Captains £50k pa. If so, that's a significant deterioration in terms and conditions from FlyBe 1.0 for long suffering unemployed pilots. Anyone able to confirm or deny this?
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Have you heard of a pandemic
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Originally Posted by L1011effoh
(Post 11152213)
Probably the wrong forum for this, but I was recently told that FlyBe 2.0 were paying their line Captains £50k pa. If so, that's a significant deterioration in terms and conditions from FlyBe 1.0 for long suffering unemployed pilots. Anyone able to confirm or deny this?
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I completely understand why people have accepted new positions with the new airline but I'm fairly sure the FlyBMI / Loganair TUPE ruling would give them a fair chance of success should they wish to go down that route. I think it's quite clear there has been a transfer of business from the old airline to the new.
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Originally Posted by cavokblues
(Post 11152554)
I completely understand why people have accepted new positions with the new airline but I'm fairly sure the FlyBMI / Loganair TUPE ruling would give them a fair chance of success should they wish to go down that route. I think it's quite clear there has been a transfer of business from the old airline to the new.
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Originally Posted by ATNotts
(Post 11152557)
I doubt it. The original business entered administration, and was bought back out of administration, which is quite different from a managed takeover of a going concern by another, or a contract, e.g. seamless transfer of a car manufacturers trackside logistics from operator to another. One of the ways that a previously unprofitable business is bought out of administration and turned around is, of course, cutting overheads, one of which is inevitably staff, another is renegotiating equipment leasing agreements, and another premises leases.
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But bmir also went into administration.
Case is here: https://assets.publishing.service.go...r_Judgment.pdf |
I'll be honest, I don't really see much of a difference. FlyBMI was placed into administration, Loganair took the bits they wanted and the rest of the company was left in administration.
I'm not an legal expert so I don't know the ins and outs of a TUPE claim but there does seem to be a reasonable amount of evidence that there is a transfer of business and it's not simply a new airline hiring pilots out of work. However, from reading the notes on the LHR slots appeal what sticks in one's craw is Thyme OpCo (laughably) arguing they only shut down the old airline to rid it of it's business liabilities because they thought that was what the CAA wanted and preferred. They even suggested if they had realised that would mean they would lose the slots they would have looked into other restructuring methods - presumably pumping enough working capital into the airline to keep it afloat. |
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11152578)
But bmir also went into administration.
Case is here: https://assets.publishing.service.go...r_Judgment.pdf BMIR and Loganair were subsidiaries of Airline Investments Limited (“AIL”). |
Originally Posted by ATNotts
(Post 11152594)
One very big difference;
That had all the hallmarks of a "creative failure" facilitated by the holding company of both businesses. Flybe Mk.1 simply went belly up and was sold on by the administrators. People just don't seem able to get this |
Originally Posted by ATNotts
(Post 11152594)
One very big difference;
That had all the hallmarks of a "creative failure" facilitated by the holding company of both businesses. Flybe Mk.1 simply went belly up and was sold on by the administrators. This is the first para of the judges conclusion - sound familiar? Having considered all the factors, I am persuaded that there was a relevant transfer of the business of BMIR. Loganair acquired nearly all the planes and a significant majority of the pilots who previously operated BMIR’s activities. The planes and pilots continued to fly scheduled and some contract routes. The activity is essentially the same. The fact that they are integrated into the business of Loganair does not prevent this being a relevant transfer. |
Originally Posted by bean
(Post 11152605)
Correct again
People just don't seem able to get this However it what it is, and unless multiple people lobby their MPs it's not going to change, and frankly even if they did it probably won't under the current administration since too many supporters of the government party will have used it to their (financial) advantage. Best hope would be a change of administration, but even then politicians only see "jobs saved" or "jobs created" not the fallout for suppliers and the reduction in salaries and conditions of employment that generally follow. |
I'm far from a legal expert but, from my own layman's eyes, I don't see a huge difference between the Loganair and Fly BMI case and this one. If anything, reading that decision posted above has cemented that view.
As I posted earlier we have it from Thyme OpCo's own mouth in the Heathrow slots appeal decisions that they could have saved the old airline. And we know some of the people involved with the old airline are now involved with the new one. In many ways you could equally say this was creative failure to transfer the assets they wanted and rid themselves of the liabilities. |
Originally Posted by cavokblues
(Post 11152622)
I'm far from a legal expert but, from my own layman's eyes, I don't see a huge difference between the Loganair and Fly BMI case and this one. If anything, reading that decision posted above has cemented that view.
As I posted earlier we have it from Thyme OpCo's own mouth in the Heathrow slots appeal decisions that they could have saved the old airline. And we know some of the people involved with the old airline are now involved with the new one. In many ways you could equally say this was creative failure to transfer the assets they wanted and rid themselves of the liabilities. |
I completely agree with you. I'm not sure I would risk it if I was in that position.
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The bmi regional/Loganair case was brought by Balpa
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Correct, the bmir/Loganair case was supported by BALPA - who seem to be conspicuous by their absence in this particular case even despite the rumoured salaries on which Q400 pilots are being offered "new" jobs.
There are very clear similarities between the two cases. bmir and Loganair had a common shareholder. Flybe 1 and Flybe 2 had a common shareholder - the largest shareholder in Flybe 1 is the sole shareholder in Flybe 2. They are proposing to fly the same aircraft type on the same routes. There are obviously those arguing otherwise, presumably to suit their vested interests, but the two situations have so many similarities that it is surprising BALPA is not supporting TUPE action in the case of Flybe 2. And with yesterday's revalation about the intent of that shareholder, you'd think they should be getting involved to protect pilots interests. |
RE BALPA;
I would venture a guess that as Flybe v2 is a new company (is it really?!) :E - and because only only a handful of pilots have been hired, paying passengers haven't been carried yet and not a fare producing route has been flown in anger, BALPA have not even spoken a dicky bird to anyone inside the place yet. I think Flybe v2 would quite like this, as it will have allowed them to shape the company in the favour of the shareholder, and not include any of the collective agreements, employee protections, salary structures etc etc that were there before. Capt's Salary above sounds low, but is it on a par with other regional operators, what are Logan, Eastern, et al paying? - Whatever pocket money they'll throw at the FOs could be even worse, obviously they will accept, because everyone wants a job. |
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