Gatwick-3
Those aircraft you are referring to in most cases will still have to fly in EU airspace on route to the UK. If an airline or aircraft are banned by the EU then overflights in EU airspace is prohibited. In most if not all cases that scenario would affect those aircraft entering UK air space.
Those unelected bureaucratics in Brussels are majority made up of "elected" Euro Members of Parliament.
Someone obviously is a brexiter. I myself am one too but I don't make outlandish and naive statements regarding the subject.
Last edited by Sotonsean; 11th Jul 2023 at 22:13.
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Well that's a totally naive statement. 🤔
Those aircraft you are referring to in most cases will still have to fly in EU airspace on route to the UK. If an airline or aircraft are banned by the EU then overflights in EU airspace is prohibited. In most if not all cases that scenario would affect those aircraft entering UK air space.
Those unelected bureaucratics in Brussels are majority made up of "elected" Euro Members of Parliament.
Someone obviously is a brexiter. I myself am one too but I don't make outlandish and naive statements regarding the subject.
Those aircraft you are referring to in most cases will still have to fly in EU airspace on route to the UK. If an airline or aircraft are banned by the EU then overflights in EU airspace is prohibited. In most if not all cases that scenario would affect those aircraft entering UK air space.
Those unelected bureaucratics in Brussels are majority made up of "elected" Euro Members of Parliament.
Someone obviously is a brexiter. I myself am one too but I don't make outlandish and naive statements regarding the subject.
TAAG have only just *since 6th June infact been allowed to operate with designated own aircraft into Europe (Lisbon Madrid and Porto) through continue to use a European 330 on most flights
The formation of the so called banned list and regulation was modified from that date as follows
Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2023/1111 of 6 June 2023 amending Regulation (EC) No 474/2006 as regards the list of air carriers banned from operating or subject to operational restrictions within the Union (Text with EEA relevance)
All air carriers certified by the authorities with responsibility for regulatory oversight of Angola, with the exception of TAAG Angola Airlines and Heli Malongo,
This is news to me so an extension « maybe » on the cards however i know Paris has been muted rather than London (from someone i know in Carnaxide that works with them on import/export )
No they've been able to fly in for years - its just the latest update to the banned list on 6th June - changed nothing
From Wiki
It was announced in May 2009 that TAAG had passed IATA inspections.[78]
In July 2009, TAAG received permission to operate flights to Europe under restricted conditions, as it was allowed to fly only into Portugal and using only its three Boeing 777s.[51][79][80] This partial lift of the ban made TAAG the only Angolan airline that was permitted to operate into the EU.[51] After nearly two years of being banned from EU airspace, TAAG deployed its own aircraft on the European corridor immediately.[81] TAAG then returned the Boeing 747-400 to South African Airways.[[i]when?]
In November 2009, the European Commission extended the permission to TAAG's four Boeing 737-700s.[52][82][83] Also in November 2009, TAAG restarted services to Havana; many Cuban doctors and teachers reside in Angola and the flight exists to help transport them.[84] In late March 2010, restrictions over TAAG operations were relaxed again following the announcement the airline could fly its Boeing 777-200ERs and 737-700s to all European airports.[53][85]
In December 2010, two engine incidents involving TAAG's Boeing 777-200ERs forced the carrier to ground the three aircraft of the type.[86][87]
In April 2012, the ban was partially lifted, but some aircraft were still prevented to fly the European Air Space.[88]
An updated version of the list of airlines banned in the EU released in early December 2012 still included part of TAAG's fleet; however, five Boeing 777s and four Boeing 737-700s were allowed to operate into the EU;[89] there were little or no changes in the list regarding the aircraft the airline was allowed to fly into the EU, following the release of the 11 latest versions of the list in July 2013,[59] December 2013,[60] April 2014,[61] December 2014,[62] June 2015,[63] December 2015,[64] June 2016,[65] December 2016,[66] May 2017,[67] November 2017,[68] and June 2018.[69]
On 17 April 2019, the ban was completely lifted, allowing TAAG to fly all of its aircraft to any EU country.[90][70]
From Wiki
It was announced in May 2009 that TAAG had passed IATA inspections.[78]
In July 2009, TAAG received permission to operate flights to Europe under restricted conditions, as it was allowed to fly only into Portugal and using only its three Boeing 777s.[51][79][80] This partial lift of the ban made TAAG the only Angolan airline that was permitted to operate into the EU.[51] After nearly two years of being banned from EU airspace, TAAG deployed its own aircraft on the European corridor immediately.[81] TAAG then returned the Boeing 747-400 to South African Airways.[[i]when?]
In November 2009, the European Commission extended the permission to TAAG's four Boeing 737-700s.[52][82][83] Also in November 2009, TAAG restarted services to Havana; many Cuban doctors and teachers reside in Angola and the flight exists to help transport them.[84] In late March 2010, restrictions over TAAG operations were relaxed again following the announcement the airline could fly its Boeing 777-200ERs and 737-700s to all European airports.[53][85]
In December 2010, two engine incidents involving TAAG's Boeing 777-200ERs forced the carrier to ground the three aircraft of the type.[86][87]
In April 2012, the ban was partially lifted, but some aircraft were still prevented to fly the European Air Space.[88]
An updated version of the list of airlines banned in the EU released in early December 2012 still included part of TAAG's fleet; however, five Boeing 777s and four Boeing 737-700s were allowed to operate into the EU;[89] there were little or no changes in the list regarding the aircraft the airline was allowed to fly into the EU, following the release of the 11 latest versions of the list in July 2013,[59] December 2013,[60] April 2014,[61] December 2014,[62] June 2015,[63] December 2015,[64] June 2016,[65] December 2016,[66] May 2017,[67] November 2017,[68] and June 2018.[69]
On 17 April 2019, the ban was completely lifted, allowing TAAG to fly all of its aircraft to any EU country.[90][70]
Going back to more relevant points, I’m glad this northern runway solution has found more traction.
Admittedly I live in North London and there are other easier airports within a shorter commute with equal / better / increased connectivity but I’ve really come to avoid LGW as an airport especially in the summer season. And even as I like the management and their attempts at investing and improving the airport as a destination to travel from.
easyJet’s scheduling really isn’t reliable. Clearly their aim is for a short turnaround time and high utilisation, but outside of the first wave of departures, a typical summer’s day is an absolute mess. A few years ago I was commuting weekly down to France for a 3 month period and forced to use LGW due to timings… it was a nightmare. Every Friday evening flights were often significantly delayed. I’d argue for an airline such as EZY (but not to exclusively single them out) you need to allow minimum 50 mins turnaround due to the inevitable delays and knock on effect of having such a constrained airport.
Admittedly I live in North London and there are other easier airports within a shorter commute with equal / better / increased connectivity but I’ve really come to avoid LGW as an airport especially in the summer season. And even as I like the management and their attempts at investing and improving the airport as a destination to travel from.
easyJet’s scheduling really isn’t reliable. Clearly their aim is for a short turnaround time and high utilisation, but outside of the first wave of departures, a typical summer’s day is an absolute mess. A few years ago I was commuting weekly down to France for a 3 month period and forced to use LGW due to timings… it was a nightmare. Every Friday evening flights were often significantly delayed. I’d argue for an airline such as EZY (but not to exclusively single them out) you need to allow minimum 50 mins turnaround due to the inevitable delays and knock on effect of having such a constrained airport.
Why do we think it's the airport? Ryanair have a somewhat larger operation similarly dominating single runway Stansted which whilst far from perfect, doesn't have the delays of Gatters. LGW's pain points are similar to STN and MAN, literally a stupid amount of based aeroplane trying to get out in the first wave to fly a 4-6 sector day then huge periods of relatively empty aprons. easyJet have planned no contingency, an old fashioned term once baked into the higher ticket price. The odd hot spare pressed into service to recover the operation doesn't happen so much anymore. What does Ryanair do differently / better here?
They both effectively have a dedicated handling operation albeit third party in Blue Handling and DHL (it's still DHL right?).
They both effectively have a dedicated handling operation albeit third party in Blue Handling and DHL (it's still DHL right?).
Why do we think it's the airport? Ryanair have a somewhat larger operation similarly dominating single runway Stansted which whilst far from perfect, doesn't have the delays of Gatters. LGW's pain points are similar to STN and MAN, literally a stupid amount of based aeroplane trying to get out in the first wave to fly a 4-6 sector day then huge periods of relatively empty aprons. easyJet have planned no contingency, an old fashioned term once baked into the higher ticket price. The odd hot spare pressed into service to recover the operation doesn't happen so much anymore. What does Ryanair do differently / better here?
They both effectively have a dedicated handling operation albeit third party in Blue Handling and DHL (it's still DHL right?).
They both effectively have a dedicated handling operation albeit third party in Blue Handling and DHL (it's still DHL right?).
The problems are not limited to easyJet/DHL - all the ground handlers (apart from Dnata) are suffering the same problems; too few fully tained, experienced staff (many lost during the Covid lockdowns) unreliable GSE, disillusioned staff and the massive turnover of staff. It's a merry-go-round, The ground handlers leave one company, put on a different hi-viz and then go and do exactly the same job they were doing. As soon as one company is offering even as little as 50p/hr more, lots jump ship. There's no stability.
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Well I think the airport is at least partly to blame simply because, for whatever reason, ACL, when coordinating it, has allowed too many movements during certain hours. I remember when Gatwick was coordinated to max 36 movements per hour and it slowly crept up to the point where 40 movements was being permitted for a couple of hours. I don’t know the figures now (but I’m sure someone will tell me) but it’s certainly more than that. Add to this a fair degree of unrealistic scheduling from EZY and you get the current problems.
Dannyboy39 - if you want to improve punctuality you are better to pad the block time rather than the turnaround. It’s no good if you have a nice, leisurely turnround, push on time and then sit at the end of the runway for 40 minutes. Much better to go for a reasonably quick turnround and then allow for the runway delays in the scheduled block time. As may be obvious, I was involved in scheduling flights from/to LGW for a fair bit of my career.
Dannyboy39 - if you want to improve punctuality you are better to pad the block time rather than the turnaround. It’s no good if you have a nice, leisurely turnround, push on time and then sit at the end of the runway for 40 minutes. Much better to go for a reasonably quick turnround and then allow for the runway delays in the scheduled block time. As may be obvious, I was involved in scheduling flights from/to LGW for a fair bit of my career.
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Perhaps a naive suggestion from myself, but perhaps easyjet should consider replacing even more A319s at Gatwick with more A320/A321 aircraft.
They could then reduce frequencies on some key routes. Another issue is that only 2 of those 82 aircraft night stop elsewhere which adds to pressure on apron space and very early morning departures.
BA and Wizzair now only use A320 or A321 from the airport.
This summer as last Easyjet are having to use the south terminal for up to 30 departures a day. I can't see anymore expansion from them in terms of movements and based aircraft being sustainable.
Furthermore, I am not sure how many BA slots they are still using under lease this summer if any, but if so these will be gradually need to be returned as BA expands flights with Euroflyer. Last summer it was about 16 slot pairs per day and last winter
about 6 slot pairs a day. I read articles earlier this year that BA is definitely planning on having them back. I know that EasyJet took a large of slots from Norwegian after their withdrawal of long haul and European routes from Gatwick apart from their Scandinavian operations.
Over the next few years the plan is for BA Euroflyer to have up to 30 aircraft based as was the case for BA short haul pre-pandemic. BA have indicated they will be taking slots back from both Vueling and EasyJet for their own expansion plans, both mainline and otherwise.
Easyjet has quite a bit to think about in terms of their Gatwick operation.
Gatwick itself is in a difficult position regarding demands from airlines after it suffered so badly during the pandemic. Fortunately the recovery has been strong for them and it has returned to profit. Also credit to them for pushing ahead with Northern Runway plans and other
improvements.
Looking at FR24 the number of departures per day in the coming week are averaging 440 which is near or at 2019 levels. I think in 2018 and 2019 peak summer departures may have been 450 or so max.
They could then reduce frequencies on some key routes. Another issue is that only 2 of those 82 aircraft night stop elsewhere which adds to pressure on apron space and very early morning departures.
BA and Wizzair now only use A320 or A321 from the airport.
This summer as last Easyjet are having to use the south terminal for up to 30 departures a day. I can't see anymore expansion from them in terms of movements and based aircraft being sustainable.
Furthermore, I am not sure how many BA slots they are still using under lease this summer if any, but if so these will be gradually need to be returned as BA expands flights with Euroflyer. Last summer it was about 16 slot pairs per day and last winter
about 6 slot pairs a day. I read articles earlier this year that BA is definitely planning on having them back. I know that EasyJet took a large of slots from Norwegian after their withdrawal of long haul and European routes from Gatwick apart from their Scandinavian operations.
Over the next few years the plan is for BA Euroflyer to have up to 30 aircraft based as was the case for BA short haul pre-pandemic. BA have indicated they will be taking slots back from both Vueling and EasyJet for their own expansion plans, both mainline and otherwise.
Easyjet has quite a bit to think about in terms of their Gatwick operation.
Gatwick itself is in a difficult position regarding demands from airlines after it suffered so badly during the pandemic. Fortunately the recovery has been strong for them and it has returned to profit. Also credit to them for pushing ahead with Northern Runway plans and other
improvements.
Looking at FR24 the number of departures per day in the coming week are averaging 440 which is near or at 2019 levels. I think in 2018 and 2019 peak summer departures may have been 450 or so max.
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It will interesting to see what the lot situation looks like for Summer 2024 at Gatwick when ACL publish their co-ordination reports later this year. The winter report
is already out but owing to the seasonality of some Gatwick services operations during the winter are lesson demanding. For example I think the number of daily departures drops on average from
about 430 plus to 300.
is already out but owing to the seasonality of some Gatwick services operations during the winter are lesson demanding. For example I think the number of daily departures drops on average from
about 430 plus to 300.
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It will interesting to see what the lot situation looks like for Summer 2024 at Gatwick when ACL publish their co-ordination reports later this year. The winter report
is already out but owing to the seasonality of some Gatwick services operations during the winter are lesson demanding. For example i think the number of daily departures drops on average from
about 430 plus to 300.
is already out but owing to the seasonality of some Gatwick services operations during the winter are lesson demanding. For example i think the number of daily departures drops on average from
about 430 plus to 300.
If only they hadn’t closed their bases at STN/SEN.
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Closing the SEN and NCL bases during the pandemic was perhaps understandable, they can realistically return to either of those airports with based frames when the time is right. The STN closure is the costly mistake as will be very difficult to return in the short-medium term. People argue the Ryanair dominance there saw them off over the years, but having now decided to venture into the package holiday market, they've allowed perhaps their biggest emerging competitor in the form of Jet2 to solidify it's position at STN, and they have the resources to deal with it!
Was Easyjet's base at STN not just profitable, but did it also give a reasonably good return on the capital (ie including the value of aircraft) invested in STN ? It's easy to say "should have" but did the finance numbers show STN to be worthwhile ?
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Absolutely. They closed those bases in order to consolidate their Gatwick position and what have they ended up with? A return to split terminal operations and a network riddled with staff shortfalls, major disruption and in the end mass cancellations.
Closing the SEN and NCL bases during the pandemic was perhaps understandable, they can realistically return to either of those airports with based frames when the time is right. The STN closure is the costly mistake as will be very difficult to return in the short-medium term. People argue the Ryanair dominance there saw them off over the years, but having now decided to venture into the package holiday market, they've allowed perhaps their biggest emerging competitor in the form of Jet2 to solidify it's position at STN, and they have the resources to deal with it!
Closing the SEN and NCL bases during the pandemic was perhaps understandable, they can realistically return to either of those airports with based frames when the time is right. The STN closure is the costly mistake as will be very difficult to return in the short-medium term. People argue the Ryanair dominance there saw them off over the years, but having now decided to venture into the package holiday market, they've allowed perhaps their biggest emerging competitor in the form of Jet2 to solidify it's position at STN, and they have the resources to deal with it!