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Luton-10

Old 16th Jun 2023, 10:13
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Letís blame the DfT as they predicted Luton , back then , would handle 17M pax by 2031 of the total London Airports demand.
That became the Benchmark for the councils decisions/ visions.
How did they decide that the Terminal could cope, are there calculations as to how much floor space can comfortably accommodate these numbers before Health and Safety becomes an Issue.?
Its not a nice experience using the Airport these days and we live in and around Luton so it should be our first choice but sadly no longer , many quite happily travel to BHX or EMA if itís a peak time Departure.
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Old 16th Jun 2023, 10:17
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In 1999, when the extension opened, if you had predicted passenger numbers would triple within 20 years... would you have been taken seriously ? Easyjet and Ryanair were much smaller then, and Wizzair didn't exist. Gatwick has managed an increase of just 50% in 20 years, while Birmingham had an 80% increase
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Old 16th Jun 2023, 10:57
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Looking through some of the planning documents relating to the 18mppa capacity consent from 2013 the figure was reached through various detailed assessments taking into account the airspace, runway and taxiway capacity, apron, the passenger terminal, surface access etc. Assumptions were based on a busy day schedule with the aircraft being predominantly A320.

The report concluded capacity was between 18-20mppa. But there were concerns from the applicant any higher than 18mppa may drag it into between a NSIP project - where it is taken away from the local council to determine.
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Old 16th Jun 2023, 12:41
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Remember back then when benchmark decisions were being made the 737-200 was still in use and Easyjet were a mixed 319/320 operation. Today everyone has scaled up with 321s & 7M8 are much more common, 25% capacity pax increase so should Luton just be handed a 25% increase of 18m limit, and terminal size increase accordingly? The concession operator should fund this with maybe another 25% increase in length agreement with LRT.
All this does not generate extra movements and helps quieter less pollution aircraft to come online - Note to LADACAN!
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Old 16th Jun 2023, 17:47
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Best get down to the Mall on Tuesday, last chance https://m.luton.gov.uk/Page/Show/new...r-airport.aspx
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Old 16th Jun 2023, 18:28
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Wouldn't a certain threshold above 18m had seen the last application in 2013 called in as a National Infrastructure application and determined by the Planning Inspectorate? Therefore the 18m allowed it to be determined by the council, who voted it through.
Yes. which is why the Council wanted the ability to approve their own application without proper scrutiny. I am sure Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted would have loved the ability to decide their own applications to increase capacity by a few million at a time, which was the case at LTN.

My understanding is if they continually breach it [limits] LBC could hit them with an enforcement notice, which the airport could appeal.
The airport broke night-time noise limits for 3 years and the Council did nothing, as they took their cut of the income. After they got rumbled the airport operator was forced to take action but I have never seen any enforcement action notices coming from the Council over this, as LRT like to say, they are partners. Why would you grass up your partner when you are getting a bit extra on the side?

Remember back then when benchmark decisions were being made the 737-200 was still in use and Easyjet were a mixed 319/320 operation. Today everyone has scaled up with 321s & 7M8 are much more common, 25% capacity pax increase so should Luton just be handed a 25% increase of 18m limit,and terminal size increase accordingly?
There is more to increasing capacity then just putting in bigger aircraft, which is why there is this DCO and a second terminal. It won't bother anyone here but the application includes chopping down 82,000m2 of mature trees, digging up 1,152,000m2 of vegetation and digging out an unregulated landfill site that contains bio hazards that borders residents homes. Oh and the bonus is the 100% destruction of a large registered County Wildlife Site. Now I can't see why any local would be upset over that lot. Maybe it is the access road to Terminal 2 from the east that breaches the Luton Local Plan and includes 10 sets of traffic lights in a residential area where there is none on a one mile route from the A505.

I have to say the locals are being really unreasonable.

Now who wants to drive through housing estates to get to a major airport, as though they are driving to Sainsbury's for a Saturday shop and being constantly held up in traffic at traffic lights? Yeah great plan!

Last edited by LTNman; 16th Jun 2023 at 18:44.
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Old 16th Jun 2023, 18:35
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Originally Posted by pabely
Best get down to the Mall on Tuesday, last chance https://m.luton.gov.uk/Page/Show/new...r-airport.aspx
Yes, the Council will be lined up with their spin merchants for a balanced view.

Last edited by LTNman; 16th Jun 2023 at 19:06.
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Old 16th Jun 2023, 22:42
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I'm sorry I thought the debate was about the 18m limit, not T2?
Anyhow, nobody seemed to give two hoots abour Wandon Park and that will be gone soon to new housing. Did you know Wigmore Park was created in 1980s on top of landfill, so why is moving the whole lot further East such a big issue, it is not like it will be lost and will end up being larger and more diverse? Parts of it can be very boggy and I much prefer Wardown Park which has a great variety of areas.
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Old 17th Jun 2023, 00:40
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You can’t put a park in another county and have it classed as Luton open space. It will be Hertfordshire open space. This was admitted by the planners in the Wandon Park application, where I am happy to quote the actual passage seeing you brought up Wandon Park.

The proposal represents a gross loss of open space in Luton and, in quantitative terms, no gain within the Borough of Luton. Indeed, as the replacement neighbourhood park will lie outside of the Borough of Luton it will not be possible through the jurisdiction of Luton Borough Council to allocate this replacement park a neighbourhood park as part of any revisions to the Local Plan.


Did you know Wigmore Park was created in 1980s on top of landfill, so why is moving the whole lot further East such a big issue,
I can’t think possibly why. Maybe because it has 2 separate asset of community value orders served on it by other councils. Maybe because it was voted, in a national poll, the best park in Bedfordshire in 2019 and 2022. Maybe because Wigmore Park has taken 45 years to mature and can’t be replicated. Maybe it is because 82,000m2 of mature trees will be cut down and not only in the park plus digging up 1,152,000m2 of vegetation. As for the clay cap and its boggy conditions, this has given parts of it County Wildlife Status its unique conditions.

Regarding the unregulated landfill site, I hear people are not too keen having it disturbed after LRT took soil samples wearing full protective clothing, masks, moon boots, gloves and goggles. Oh and there were the decontamination showers in the background for every time they took a break just for good measure. And the intention? To dig the whole lot out to a depth of up to 17m within 40 metres of homes. I nearly forgot, the bomb squad were on site, as the landfill could also contained bombs and ammunition dumped after the Second World War.

The signage on the fences were equally reassuring. No mobile phones, no naked flames and no smoking.

Those pesky people of Wigmore. Why would they indeed get upset?


Last edited by LTNman; 17th Jun 2023 at 06:24.
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Old 17th Jun 2023, 03:42
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Originally Posted by Falcon666
Letís blame the DfT as they predicted Luton , back then , would handle 17M pax by 2031 of the total London Airports demand.
That became the Benchmark for the councils decisions/ visions.
How did they decide that the Terminal could cope, are there calculations as to how much floor space can comfortably accommodate these numbers before Health and Safety becomes an Issue.?
Its not a nice experience using the Airport these days and we live in and around Luton so it should be our first choice but sadly no longer , many quite happily travel to BHX or EMA if itís a peak time Departure.
LTNman you suggest that local passengers prefer BHX and EMA over Luton. Well I considered that statement and that got me to look at all three airports over a same time period.

The following figures are based on 2008 to 2019.

E.M.A. Has never exceeded its highest passenger level since 2008 and in 2019 the difference is minus 17%.

B.H.X has increased passenger levels by 27%.

LTN has grown 78% which might suggest itís far more popular than you suggest.

Just maybe your expectations are too high?





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Old 17th Jun 2023, 05:29
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Anyone who lives in the Luton area and prefers to go to East Midlands for the same destination is actually insane.
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Old 17th Jun 2023, 05:54
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It should be remembered that routes, schedules and prices are not the same between airports.

I live in London (yes, I get to vote for the Mayor of London) but sometimes find better flight times or prices at Birmingham, Bristol, East Midlands, and very occasionally Leeds or Manchester (even allowing for the additional cost and time of travel) than any of London's 6 airports.

Last year, Mrs Johnson and I found that a late notice one way flight to Tenerife was significantly cheaper from Birmingham than anywhere near London - so that is what we chose. Same story with a oneway from Burgas in Bulgaria to Leeds and also Bristol to Ibiza.

People *do* travel to/from a different airport than their local one if it suits them better. Catchment area leakage is a real thing.

Last edited by davidjohnson6; 17th Jun 2023 at 06:38.
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Old 17th Jun 2023, 06:40
  #2933 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lee Baker Street
LTNman you suggest that local passengers prefer BHX and EMA over Luton.
I didn’t say any such thing, someone else said that.

Southend is far more popular than Luton in surveys yet it only has 2 departures today. Its lack of passengers accounts for its popularity so is popularity measured on passenger numbers or surveys? I would say passenger numbers but then the moan factor creeps in as too many passengers end up at the same airport at the same time.

I see you are posting at 3.42 local time. Are the departures keeping you awake? I noticed a 6 hour delayed Wizz left at gone 1am today that woke my old woman up. Maybe I should apply for airport funded double glazing and air conditioning so I can keep the windows shut. Can’t do that, as despite being woke up the household is not even in the outer bands of noise measurements so officially we are not disturbed. As for AC, it is not offered making double glazing useless in the heat of summer nights.

Last edited by LTNman; 17th Jun 2023 at 07:03.
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Old 17th Jun 2023, 10:35
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Originally Posted by Lee Baker Street

LTN has grown 78% which might suggest itís far more popular than you suggest.

Just maybe your expectations are too high?
Just for clarity I posted ,

Nothing to do with expectations

I will give you a few examples.
Friends will travel to EMA in two weeks because they always fly with TUI and TUI donít serve their destination from Luton anymore.
Quote ďStay and Park in Airport Hotel for a better experience and flight times.
I believe this is the case for a lot of loyal TUI passengers who are fed up with Luton as a cramped experience and who have children in tow.
Many others look to Jet2 now and STN

Family going to BHX to get flight to Rome- no longer served from Luton.

Family going to STN because they will not fly with Wizz as they are still owed money.

Its exactly the same as long haul, you have to go further afield, if the costs involved arenít prohibitive then why not.

Yes Luton is popular but mostly due to its location not because itís a nice airport to pass through at certain times.
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Old 17th Jun 2023, 11:34
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I guess we can all give various examples, I know three different couples from Derby/Nottingham area who use Luton as flight timings not at the crack of dawn are preferential........yes they are all over 65 and getting to any airport for first departure is not on their radar.
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Old 17th Jun 2023, 20:29
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https://aviationsourcenews.com/airli...21neo-by-2025/
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Old 17th Jun 2023, 20:41
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CO2 / Noise / 321NEOs

https://www.airlinesanddestinations....-london-luton/

London Luton Airport has declared its ambition to reach net zero for its airport emissions by 2040, including through the on-site generation of 25% renewable electricity by the end of 2026, then the use of 100% low-carbon vehicles and the transition to low-carbon heating from 2030.Ē We are delighted to have entered into this agreement with Wizz Air which adds to the growing number of aircraft quieter and more fuel efficient that are now based at the airport said Jonathan Rayner, CCO of London Luton Airport.

- Anyone seen a planning application for Solar Farm to South of runway?

- LTN man As far as night flights waking people up, that could have been the Sunwing 738 at 01:05, you just couldn't help yourself having a dig at Wizzair. And there were 16 (permitted) arrivals after midnight.
She doesn't notice the DHLs then?
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Old 17th Jun 2023, 23:47
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Originally Posted by pabely

- Anyone seen a planning application for Solar Farm to South of runway?
?
Noted at Post 2857


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Old 18th Jun 2023, 00:11
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Originally Posted by Falcon666
Noted at Post 2857

Ha, ha. I knew I read it some where else!
Thanks
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Old 18th Jun 2023, 00:30
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LTN man As far as night flights waking people up, that could have been the Sunwing 738 at 01:05, you just couldn't help yourself having a dig at Wizzair.
Little hissy fit? It was Wizz, as I was still tapping away at this iPad when it took off. The wife wakes up with the noise so I looked up the flight on flightradar 24, as it headed away from Luton. Think it was meant to take off at 18.35 and was heading for Tirana.

As I tap away now another late Wizz takes off at 00:33. This is why there is a summer overnight ban on biz jets. Too many airlines taking off and landing late.
Edit
Oh here is the next one. 2 hour late Wizz arrival that should have landed at 22:38 followed by a Ryanair arriving 1 hour 30 minutes late.

As a condition of a 32m airport the airport should be forced to close overnight like many other civilised airports.

London Luton Airport has declared its ambition to reach net zero for its airport emissions by 2040,
Smoke and mirrors. LLAOL and LRT both refuse to commit to imposing pollution limits on aircraft flying into and out of Luton. While the airport will achieve net zero, pollution is set for a massive increase if expansion plans are passed.

Last edited by LTNman; 18th Jun 2023 at 00:59.
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