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The new MD at Manchester is named as Chris Woodroffe, previously COO of Gatwick
https://marketingstockport.co.uk/new...ester-airport/
Hope that Chris is not just the next fall guy. The problems at MAN, IMHO, are a bit higher up than MD level.
https://marketingstockport.co.uk/new...ester-airport/
Hope that Chris is not just the next fall guy. The problems at MAN, IMHO, are a bit higher up than MD level.
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Originally Posted by Mr A Tis
The new MD at Manchester is named as Chris Woodroffe, previously COO of Gatwick
https://marketingstockport.co.uk/new...ester-airport/
Hope that Chris is not just the next fall guy. The problems at MAN, IMHO, are a bit higher up than MD level.
https://marketingstockport.co.uk/new...ester-airport/
Hope that Chris is not just the next fall guy. The problems at MAN, IMHO, are a bit higher up than MD level.
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Mr Woodroffe's success will be dependent on coaxing some serious investment cash out of the notoriously miserly Charlie Cornish. And - yes - I know that money is especially tight right now. But pointing at T2's (super-value-engineered) enhancements isn't sufficient. A very substantial proportion (over half?) of MAN's passengers still use T1 and T3 and will continue to do so for some considerable time yet. What has been spent on them in the last decade? This neglect can't continue. Those terminals need a major refresh: working lifts, escalators, travelators. Regularly cleaned toilets with functioning locks. Seating. These things shouldn't break the bank, but Cornish's regime has resisted spending on them anyway. The interminable trudge from T3 to T2 over an entirely shut-down sequence of dead travelators is an embarrassment and a disgrace. How are older or mobility-impaired customers with luggage supposed to cope with this? There should be a free inter-terminals shuttle bus running via the Ground Transport Interchange until they are fixed or replaced.
Facilities for domestic passengers need to be moved IMMEDIATELY to a dedicated section of T2 with their own security channel. Years of excuses and prevarication have killed the domestic market at MAN for routes which compete with road and rail. If you're needing to travel from Manchester to Southampton, do you expect to join a security queue of thousands of Ryanair passengers who have been advised to turn up with three hours to spare? No wonder this once core route is down to a single daily 29-seater which gets cancelled more often than not. Exeter has failed already. Edinburgh, Glasgow, Southend. MAN's domestic flight arrangements are a non-starter, and we're seeing overland routes failing in real time because of this abject neglect. Domestic carriers can't carry the financial hit this 'allow three hours' chaos invites. And it was a painfully easy problem to identify. Will domestic carriers return once they've given up on MAN's dysfunctional arrangements for them? MAN needs their connectivity to support long-haul success, so perhaps they should sort out the problem RIGHT NOW, because significant damage has already been done. Movable future timeframes simply don't cut it. Jam tomorrow, but tomorrow never comes. Giving domestic flights their own dedicated facility in T2 should be THE most pressing priority to sort out. Top of the pile.
Finally, but not least, the Cornish regime's managed destruction of MAN's cargo capability needs to be reversed. Mr Woodruffe: welcome to the busiest airport in Europe not to have a hi-lo available on site, or a team trained to operate it. I would call that 'third-world', but it wouldn't be fair on the many third-world airports which do have ample hi-los and staff to operate them.
T2's enhancements represent the kind of progress we need to see, though final completion is a long way off. So those 50%+ of MAN's customers using the rest of the campus can't continue to be disregarded indefinitely. T1 and T3 are part of the "Manchester experience" too.
Facilities for domestic passengers need to be moved IMMEDIATELY to a dedicated section of T2 with their own security channel. Years of excuses and prevarication have killed the domestic market at MAN for routes which compete with road and rail. If you're needing to travel from Manchester to Southampton, do you expect to join a security queue of thousands of Ryanair passengers who have been advised to turn up with three hours to spare? No wonder this once core route is down to a single daily 29-seater which gets cancelled more often than not. Exeter has failed already. Edinburgh, Glasgow, Southend. MAN's domestic flight arrangements are a non-starter, and we're seeing overland routes failing in real time because of this abject neglect. Domestic carriers can't carry the financial hit this 'allow three hours' chaos invites. And it was a painfully easy problem to identify. Will domestic carriers return once they've given up on MAN's dysfunctional arrangements for them? MAN needs their connectivity to support long-haul success, so perhaps they should sort out the problem RIGHT NOW, because significant damage has already been done. Movable future timeframes simply don't cut it. Jam tomorrow, but tomorrow never comes. Giving domestic flights their own dedicated facility in T2 should be THE most pressing priority to sort out. Top of the pile.
Finally, but not least, the Cornish regime's managed destruction of MAN's cargo capability needs to be reversed. Mr Woodruffe: welcome to the busiest airport in Europe not to have a hi-lo available on site, or a team trained to operate it. I would call that 'third-world', but it wouldn't be fair on the many third-world airports which do have ample hi-los and staff to operate them.
T2's enhancements represent the kind of progress we need to see, though final completion is a long way off. So those 50%+ of MAN's customers using the rest of the campus can't continue to be disregarded indefinitely. T1 and T3 are part of the "Manchester experience" too.
Last edited by OzzyOzBorn; 9th Jun 2022 at 18:38.
My first flight was to the then new T1 Domestic, a haven of tranquility from a different age. Most were suited and booted. The bottom line is that Finance would turn round and point out the ROI on a dedicated facility for domestic was zero, indeed it would be a cost. They calculate, correctly, that for their business model to work given the current charging regime, they need to offset losses via driving footfall into retail and charging rent and/or taking a % cut on profit from retail tenants. Suggesting that this footfall is reduced isn't, pardon the pun, going to fly. They need to continue to drive volume through the shops and if that means a few less Q400s and ATRs then "Climate Emergency" take the train and make way for 189 Ryanair spenders. I get what you mean, but I can't see how it would make them any more money and that's the end of it if it won't. The only way to balance this out would be to hike user charges for domestic short haul and that's not a winning formula for the customer either.
CX Customer Experience isn't front and centre for MAG as they've got a critical mass in market and no direct competitor locally.
CX Customer Experience isn't front and centre for MAG as they've got a critical mass in market and no direct competitor locally.
If you're needing to travel from Manchester to Southampton, do you expect to join a security queue of thousands of Ryanair passengers who have been advised to turn up with three hours to spare?
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I suspect that you will see minimal investment in T1 as each £ spent on it is a £ that can’t be spent finishing the T2 transformation programme - which does need to be the absolute priority from an infrastructure perspective. Don’t forget T1 was meant to have closed permanently by now so they will be reluctant to throw money at an asset they are going to demolish.
Adding a dedicated domestic facility would also likely make the situation worse not better when they’re struggling to staff current operations.
Adding a dedicated domestic facility would also likely make the situation worse not better when they’re struggling to staff current operations.
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Some misunderstanding here. I do NOT propose that MAG should build a seperate domestic terminal. From the outset of the TP (T2), it was envisaged that domestic flights would move to a dedicated section of that terminal, ideally located such that transfers within T2 and across to the legacy campus would be relatively seemless. A dedicated security channel within the existing set-up should also be an attainable objective. I'm asking them to prioritise an element of the existing T2 plan which seems to get pushed back indefinitely as if it were of no consequence. And we're not just talking about domestic business itself ... MAN saw a good deal of domestic to long-haul (and European) interline upto 2019. That underpins the viability of prestige long-haul operations as well.
I'm not suggesting that MAG needs to reinvent the wheel. Just do what they said they were going to do all along without yet more delay.
As for not spending more money on T1/T3, that is not a practical proposition if half the airport's customers are going to be using those facilities for years to come. If they were state-of-the-art already, one could pare spending back a bit. But they've had precious little invested in them for a decade now and it shows. We have to acknowledge that the replacement date for T1 in particular continues to slip, and I suspect that it will be with us for quite some time yet. So all of it's moving parts need to work. Lifts, escalators, travelators, toilets, toilet doors. All of it.
A little straw poll. How long do you think it will be before T1 really closes? Two years? Five years? Ten or more? Do you justify not maintaining your home for a decade because you plan to replace it in afew years' time? With millions of passenger journeys to support each year, you can't continue to do that with the tired structure that is T1.
I'm not suggesting that MAG needs to reinvent the wheel. Just do what they said they were going to do all along without yet more delay.
As for not spending more money on T1/T3, that is not a practical proposition if half the airport's customers are going to be using those facilities for years to come. If they were state-of-the-art already, one could pare spending back a bit. But they've had precious little invested in them for a decade now and it shows. We have to acknowledge that the replacement date for T1 in particular continues to slip, and I suspect that it will be with us for quite some time yet. So all of it's moving parts need to work. Lifts, escalators, travelators, toilets, toilet doors. All of it.
A little straw poll. How long do you think it will be before T1 really closes? Two years? Five years? Ten or more? Do you justify not maintaining your home for a decade because you plan to replace it in afew years' time? With millions of passenger journeys to support each year, you can't continue to do that with the tired structure that is T1.
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I was recently told by a senior airline manager who operates at MAN that T2 has no further capacity available at busy periods until the baggage system upgrade works are completed... which is apparently why Jet2 have had to split between terminals. This also means no airline can move (domestic or otherwise) from T1/T3 to T2 until capacity permits.
No idea if correct, but it was news to me.
No idea if correct, but it was news to me.
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I can't see T1 closing in the next five years, Ozzy. I reckon at least 7-10 before they shut it down. I understand the next T2 pier won't be completed for another three years, and they'll likely require a 3rd T2 pier to be operational before considering the shutdown of T1.
If I recall correctly, Piers B and C from T1 will remain operational and connected to the new T2, even after the T1 decommissioning. Both of those piers are in dire need of a refresh, particularly pier B which is now 60 years old.
If I recall correctly, Piers B and C from T1 will remain operational and connected to the new T2, even after the T1 decommissioning. Both of those piers are in dire need of a refresh, particularly pier B which is now 60 years old.
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Can't see T1 being closed within the next decade, so they will have to spend some pennies on it.
As Ozzy says, basic stuff is being ignored throughout the whole estate. Walkways, escalators, toilet doors, PIDs in the bus station. scruffy dirty food outlets (lack of cleaners), no soap in dispensers etc etc.
No wonder so many of the shiny new check ins in T2 are not being used if the baggage system cant cope.
As for domestics, an interim could be done in the T1 downstairs check in. Moving Aurigny, Eastern, Loganair, BA, easyJet (doms) Aer Lingus (Eire & NI) to one place & it would have its own security channel. Surely a minimum cost solution. Sort out the T2 baggage issues & get Jet 2 back to T2 in full.
The check in queues & associated bad press has killed the domestics, especially Eastern on the Southampton. From the Flybe 6 a day, we now have Eastern advertising twice daily AT72 but in reality it is often downgraded to a once daily Jetstream & even that is often cancelled. The competition is a 4.5 hour train journey, costing around £75-£100 each way standard class (unless you book weeks/ months in advance). A 40 minute flight for the same price as a cross country packed train should be a winner, but who would want to endure the current airport experience mixed in with thousands of Ryanair leisure pax arriving sometimes 4 hours before their flights. The pax (inc me) have given up trying to fly to Southampton anymore.
As Ozzy says, basic stuff is being ignored throughout the whole estate. Walkways, escalators, toilet doors, PIDs in the bus station. scruffy dirty food outlets (lack of cleaners), no soap in dispensers etc etc.
No wonder so many of the shiny new check ins in T2 are not being used if the baggage system cant cope.
As for domestics, an interim could be done in the T1 downstairs check in. Moving Aurigny, Eastern, Loganair, BA, easyJet (doms) Aer Lingus (Eire & NI) to one place & it would have its own security channel. Surely a minimum cost solution. Sort out the T2 baggage issues & get Jet 2 back to T2 in full.
The check in queues & associated bad press has killed the domestics, especially Eastern on the Southampton. From the Flybe 6 a day, we now have Eastern advertising twice daily AT72 but in reality it is often downgraded to a once daily Jetstream & even that is often cancelled. The competition is a 4.5 hour train journey, costing around £75-£100 each way standard class (unless you book weeks/ months in advance). A 40 minute flight for the same price as a cross country packed train should be a winner, but who would want to endure the current airport experience mixed in with thousands of Ryanair leisure pax arriving sometimes 4 hours before their flights. The pax (inc me) have given up trying to fly to Southampton anymore.
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Originally Posted by Manchester Exile
I can't see T1 closing in the next five years, Ozzy. I reckon at least 7-10 before they shut it down. I understand the next T2 pier won't be completed for another three years, and they'll likely require a 3rd T2 pier to be operational before considering the shutdown of T1.
If I recall correctly, Piers B and C from T1 will remain operational and connected to the new T2, even after the T1 decommissioning. Both of those piers are in dire need of a refresh, particularly pier B which is now 60 years old.
If I recall correctly, Piers B and C from T1 will remain operational and connected to the new T2, even after the T1 decommissioning. Both of those piers are in dire need of a refresh, particularly pier B which is now 60 years old.
Initially there were meant to be 4 piers in total built, pre covid the 4th pier was put on hold indefinitely.
So since then (2018/2019?) the plan was always to build the 3 piers and then close T1. However, we know with covid everything is now delayed.
I believe the 2nd pier will be open by summer 2025 and the 3rd pier by 2027.
At the same time the legacy T2 refurb is due to start later this year and be complete by 2024.
So my estimate would be T1 is going to be operationally until at least 2027. In that time a refurb of Piers B & C is desperately needed! Both the interior and exterior. There has to be funds made available for this, because remember the closure of T1 eventually does not also mean the closure of the T1 Piers...there has to be a justification for this investment given the future timeline of the overall TP.
Other areas of the TP also include the new dual taxiway system between taxiway Alpha and the T2 western apron. I don't know when this is re-starting, but again to reduce bottlenecks within the taxiways systems and therefore preventing long holding of aircraft, this needs to be started again.
I believe the end of Pier C (Gates 29/31/32) would be demolished to make way for part of this new taxiway system.
Last edited by MANFAN; 11th Jun 2022 at 16:22.
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T1 will probably match Her Majesty in reaching a platinum jubilee, ten years from now. One of the underlying premises of the MAN-TP business case was to shut down T1 with its associated operating cost. However that was before the logistics were fully examined. So much of the T1/T3 combo is umbilically linked, making it especially difficult to simply isolate and decommission T1. I'm two years out of MAG now and so not privy to the latest thinking but I know there's no easy solution to this one.
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Just a report on our experience at MAN with TUI flights to Palma and return.
Departure was on Monday 6th June with an SDT of 06.30.
The check-in queue in T2 extended back some distance into the Skylink and the whole process took exactly an hour.
It appeared that only one of the standard desks was in use and that for premium passengers. For the rest, as you emerged from the 9 'lanes' holding the queues, there were 3 parts to the process. Initially 4 or 5 staff were waiting to check passports and Covid passes as it was to Spain. Then it was round to the next section to the self check-in machines where a member of staff came to assist. Bags weighed and PMI stickers attached. Finally, it was a short 4 or 5 yard walk to place cases on a belt.
Security queues extended back into the main T2X and round into the next zone - F I think. However, it moved fairly steadily and the process took 50 minutes. From what I could see, 5 lanes were open, including 1 & 2 which I assumed were fast track, plus 4, 7 and 8. There was no shouting, pushing or aggro. and the staff we encountered were pleasant and helpful.
The aircraft pushed back at 07.20, 50 minutes late, and the pilot in apologising for the delay, mentioned the Cleaners hadn't turned up when they should.
So, in normal circumstances, those waiting times would be far from acceptable, but in the current climate were better than some that have been reported and less than we feared.
Just to add that it took 75 minutes for our cases to arrive after parking at an airbridge stand at Palma.
The return yesterday, the 13th, required no complaints. Pushed back at PMI on the dot at 19.20 their time, arrived on stand 104 at T2X 3 minutes early at 20.57. It's a fair walk even from that stand to Border Control but the 2 sections of travellator were working! Plenty of e-gates open with no delays and the first cases came through in 30 minutes from on stand, our own 5 minutes or so later. I accept it was probably a good time of the evening to arrive, not having the surge that can happen at periods between 22.00 and 02.00.
Departure was on Monday 6th June with an SDT of 06.30.
The check-in queue in T2 extended back some distance into the Skylink and the whole process took exactly an hour.
It appeared that only one of the standard desks was in use and that for premium passengers. For the rest, as you emerged from the 9 'lanes' holding the queues, there were 3 parts to the process. Initially 4 or 5 staff were waiting to check passports and Covid passes as it was to Spain. Then it was round to the next section to the self check-in machines where a member of staff came to assist. Bags weighed and PMI stickers attached. Finally, it was a short 4 or 5 yard walk to place cases on a belt.
Security queues extended back into the main T2X and round into the next zone - F I think. However, it moved fairly steadily and the process took 50 minutes. From what I could see, 5 lanes were open, including 1 & 2 which I assumed were fast track, plus 4, 7 and 8. There was no shouting, pushing or aggro. and the staff we encountered were pleasant and helpful.
The aircraft pushed back at 07.20, 50 minutes late, and the pilot in apologising for the delay, mentioned the Cleaners hadn't turned up when they should.
So, in normal circumstances, those waiting times would be far from acceptable, but in the current climate were better than some that have been reported and less than we feared.
Just to add that it took 75 minutes for our cases to arrive after parking at an airbridge stand at Palma.
The return yesterday, the 13th, required no complaints. Pushed back at PMI on the dot at 19.20 their time, arrived on stand 104 at T2X 3 minutes early at 20.57. It's a fair walk even from that stand to Border Control but the 2 sections of travellator were working! Plenty of e-gates open with no delays and the first cases came through in 30 minutes from on stand, our own 5 minutes or so later. I accept it was probably a good time of the evening to arrive, not having the surge that can happen at periods between 22.00 and 02.00.
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We are just back from 2 weeks in Cancun and looking at wwhat the airport is directly responsable for I thought they did very well
Out on 31st May from terminal 2 and there were no security queue. through immigration this morning in 5 minutes so very good. As for the rest of the trip with TUI it was a bit of a nightmare but that was the handling agents fault not the airports.
Out on 31st May from terminal 2 and there were no security queue. through immigration this morning in 5 minutes so very good. As for the rest of the trip with TUI it was a bit of a nightmare but that was the handling agents fault not the airports.
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Originally Posted by roverman
T1 will probably match Her Majesty in reaching a platinum jubilee, ten years from now. One of the underlying premises of the MAN-TP business case was to shut down T1 with its associated operating cost. However that was before the logistics were fully examined. So much of the T1/T3 combo is umbilically linked, making it especially difficult to simply isolate and decommission T1. I'm two years out of MAG now and so not privy to the latest thinking but I know there's no easy solution to this one.
And as you and others say, given the vital kit that passes through it to demolish it is going to be one hell of a challenge.
I'm with you. I think that come 2032 T1 will 'celebrating its Platinum Jubilee - if 'celebrate' is the right word to use. You never know, by then it could have received listed building ststus or been declared an ancient monument!
Gatwick South was opened in 1958, it is today one of the best terminals in the UK.
Prestwick's terminal dates from 1964, neglected and to some degree, dated.
Glasgow's terminal opened in 1966, has IMHO the best security hall in the country, and does the job well with two airbridge served piers and a low cost one.
Edinburgh dates from 1977 and has been built out and modernised.
Now Manchester T1 dates from 1962, so what's happened is a neglect and de-investment based upon an end of life that has been extended. Older, contemporary options are in better condition due to continued investment. I get that end of life is in the plan, but to not invest in the basics just means the CX collapses even further. Comparatively, there are too many airports who manage to deliver the basics better, one of which is fellow MAG member, Stansted.
Prestwick's terminal dates from 1964, neglected and to some degree, dated.
Glasgow's terminal opened in 1966, has IMHO the best security hall in the country, and does the job well with two airbridge served piers and a low cost one.
Edinburgh dates from 1977 and has been built out and modernised.
Now Manchester T1 dates from 1962, so what's happened is a neglect and de-investment based upon an end of life that has been extended. Older, contemporary options are in better condition due to continued investment. I get that end of life is in the plan, but to not invest in the basics just means the CX collapses even further. Comparatively, there are too many airports who manage to deliver the basics better, one of which is fellow MAG member, Stansted.
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TUI AND T2
Just back from Cancun out on 29th May, started night before went down at around 7pm to drop bags off, considering there was no TUI flights due out in evening/night, everyone else had similar ideas and 80 minutes to check in TUI staffing problems apparently they stopped drop off a day or two later.
Following morning returned to T2 just after 8am for 1050 flight straight through security around 15 minutes all ok
into new food court area and a drink couple of queues were starting at various eating places but still managed a few beers still ok
TUI flight was already in it arrived the night before from Amman on maintance so should be no issues right ? wrong 3 hr 30 min delay we were all made to board the aircraft just after our departure time at 1050hrs we was one of the last to get on the bus as we were on T2 remote, still no issue however there was congestion as the 0755 TUI Heraklion flight was from same gate and they were getting passengers back off the plane after they had been sat on it for hours 200 unhappy passengers there, well we were all on the flight for around 3 hrs sat on the tarmac had not moved a inch, captain was very apologetic and saying we were awaiting the baggage to be loaded,stewardess were also apologetic saying they could not understand why they loaded passengers knowing there would be a delay so a 9hr+ flight was 12+ servisair at fault
Returned 14 days later flight waslate arriving into Cancun from Manchester due to problems associated with Manchester airport, but a quick turn around for a b789 and good headwind got us back in Manchester just 60 minutes late,all good, no we are in Manchester we get on gate and another 15 minutes waiting for you guessed it servisair to arrive to operate the airbridge.
Parked on the old T2 side and not nice inside but as soon you get into T2 at passport it's much more pleasent and does seem alot more spacious than the old T2 passport control took around 5-10 minutes all good
Baggage oh dear back to servisair again took a hour before first bags came on belt and looking around in baggage hall the amount of lost luggage was very alarming, even on our carousel there was 3 cases going round destination was Doha why are they even on arrivals carousel these were luggage departing from Manchester
So all in all servisair was the main reason for all delays, along with staff shortage night before from TUI, so not a good experience but it's not directly Manchester airports fault but unfortunitly the public/customer will only see it's the airport fault, we on here understand the issues more than the general public they just see Manchester Airport, so yes in away Manchester Airport do need to get a grip with handling agents/airlines and other contractors, if they do not meet the high standards they should not be allowed to operate, fine the company, sanction them, do something don't just let them work at third world standards, which then is bringing the airport down, yes Manchester Airport has got it;s own problems lack of investment we all agree there but theres other ways as well to improve and get a better service
Following morning returned to T2 just after 8am for 1050 flight straight through security around 15 minutes all ok
into new food court area and a drink couple of queues were starting at various eating places but still managed a few beers still ok
TUI flight was already in it arrived the night before from Amman on maintance so should be no issues right ? wrong 3 hr 30 min delay we were all made to board the aircraft just after our departure time at 1050hrs we was one of the last to get on the bus as we were on T2 remote, still no issue however there was congestion as the 0755 TUI Heraklion flight was from same gate and they were getting passengers back off the plane after they had been sat on it for hours 200 unhappy passengers there, well we were all on the flight for around 3 hrs sat on the tarmac had not moved a inch, captain was very apologetic and saying we were awaiting the baggage to be loaded,stewardess were also apologetic saying they could not understand why they loaded passengers knowing there would be a delay so a 9hr+ flight was 12+ servisair at fault
Returned 14 days later flight waslate arriving into Cancun from Manchester due to problems associated with Manchester airport, but a quick turn around for a b789 and good headwind got us back in Manchester just 60 minutes late,all good, no we are in Manchester we get on gate and another 15 minutes waiting for you guessed it servisair to arrive to operate the airbridge.
Parked on the old T2 side and not nice inside but as soon you get into T2 at passport it's much more pleasent and does seem alot more spacious than the old T2 passport control took around 5-10 minutes all good
Baggage oh dear back to servisair again took a hour before first bags came on belt and looking around in baggage hall the amount of lost luggage was very alarming, even on our carousel there was 3 cases going round destination was Doha why are they even on arrivals carousel these were luggage departing from Manchester
So all in all servisair was the main reason for all delays, along with staff shortage night before from TUI, so not a good experience but it's not directly Manchester airports fault but unfortunitly the public/customer will only see it's the airport fault, we on here understand the issues more than the general public they just see Manchester Airport, so yes in away Manchester Airport do need to get a grip with handling agents/airlines and other contractors, if they do not meet the high standards they should not be allowed to operate, fine the company, sanction them, do something don't just let them work at third world standards, which then is bringing the airport down, yes Manchester Airport has got it;s own problems lack of investment we all agree there but theres other ways as well to improve and get a better service
