SOUTHEND 5
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Essex
Posts: 800
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no way that Stobart Air can operate all 18 routes with just their own ATRs. There are not enough routes to be served with that type. They need to get larger and longer ranging aircraft to open up potential markets. I don't see how else it can work. What's more strange is that they simply turn around and say 'actually we're going with an extended Flybe franchise', which to me suggests they could have been negotiating with both airlines simultaneously, otherwise this news will come as a bit of a surprise to Flybe. Someone needs to bring some clarity to the situation.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The E195s operate pretty well out of SOU which has a short run and significant performance penalties so I should imagine it would work out of SEN, if that is indeed what is planned ...
I guess all will come clear in the coming weeks, I think it's a good thing, I didn't see CityJet as a good fit for SEN and could be good for Stobart ...
I guess all will come clear in the coming weeks, I think it's a good thing, I didn't see CityJet as a good fit for SEN and could be good for Stobart ...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 791
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am wondering if Flybe actually have spare aircraft sitting around available for a SEN operation. Luxair use Dash 8s from LUX to Ibiza and southern Italy and sometimes Malta so surely they are a good aircraft for SEN too.
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Outer London
Age: 43
Posts: 604
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the 18 routes really are still happening and they will be under a Flybe franchise that wouldn't be a bad thing. BE are so much better known than WX for a start and marketing would be easier. The big question is what aircraft would be used and where they will come from...there were rumours a while back of Stobart getting A319s but I think that is too much capacity and they would need to sort them out pretty quickly. If it's BE aircraft it's not a franchise, it's just paying/incentivising them to operate as at Cardiff/DSA.
Could the potential operation Cityjet are talking about be operating these flights on behalf of Stobart Air at SEN, rather than in their own right?
Could the potential operation Cityjet are talking about be operating these flights on behalf of Stobart Air at SEN, rather than in their own right?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In the sticks
Posts: 9,851
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What Southend doesn't need is another set of 1 hour routes to minor airports using ATR's. It has been tried before and it wasn't a great success.
What is needed is what Cityjet could have offered and that is a jet service to mainstream airports including Mediterranean holiday resorts. 2.5 million passengers now seems somewhat more distant than it did a couple of weeks ago.
What is needed is what Cityjet could have offered and that is a jet service to mainstream airports including Mediterranean holiday resorts. 2.5 million passengers now seems somewhat more distant than it did a couple of weeks ago.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: London Whipsnade Wildlife Park
Posts: 5,038
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We know that easyJet hangared a C Series after Farnborough, so how about CityJet operating the Sukhoi fleet on their behalf on 'thinner' routes? Large fleet potentially on order?
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmm.
I'd say Southend needs routes marketed by something more like FlyBe then CityJet (that is to say, marketed; I'm still dazed by the fact CityJet started routes at Cambridge with no notice and no marketing).
But yes; they needed to be routes operated by something more like what CityJet could operate them with. Maybe that'll be what happens? CityJet are the people with the right kind of aircraft hanging around with no plans for next summer...
I'd say Southend needs routes marketed by something more like FlyBe then CityJet (that is to say, marketed; I'm still dazed by the fact CityJet started routes at Cambridge with no notice and no marketing).
But yes; they needed to be routes operated by something more like what CityJet could operate them with. Maybe that'll be what happens? CityJet are the people with the right kind of aircraft hanging around with no plans for next summer...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd say that CityJet have probably parted ways if the talks failed, I would imagine the routes ex SEN would be wholly down to Stobart Air, there is some scope for the ATR but watch this space I guess ...
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Essex
Posts: 800
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's been said [by CityJet] is that CityJet gave Stobart a target date to make their decision by; the deadline passed; Stobart said no deal; CityJet were left disappointed by the decision, but now move ahead with their alternative ventures.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 546
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Group recently acquired all of the interests of Invesco Asset Management Limited in its airline business, Stobart Air, and aircraft leasing business, Propius Holdings Limited ("Propius") and announced negotiations, which are progressing, to acquire the remaining 33% interest in Propius from Aer Lingus. Following these developments, the Board of Stobart has reassessed its strategy for the Aviation Division, in particular, its options for building new passenger routes at London Southend Airport ("LSA") and furthering the development of its Aer Lingus Regional franchise.
As a result, rather than proceed with a collaboration with CityJet, the Group has taken the decision to operate flights from LSA to up to 18 new destinations through Stobart Air's existing franchise arrangement with Flybe, under which it operates a number of routes into northern Europe. The new routes are expected to start in summer 2017 and to be available for sale by the end of this month. Negotiations with CityJet that could have resulted in a change in the ownership of Stobart Air have been terminated.
Reading the above stock market announcement it is clear to me that Stobart finds itself in the difficult position of having to run its own flights out of its own airport to try and get pax numbers up.
They need to decide if they are an airport operator or an aircraft operator. Trying to be both will not solve the underlying issue at the airport. They need to make the real estate attractive to airline customers, which so far they have failed to do.
As a result, rather than proceed with a collaboration with CityJet, the Group has taken the decision to operate flights from LSA to up to 18 new destinations through Stobart Air's existing franchise arrangement with Flybe, under which it operates a number of routes into northern Europe. The new routes are expected to start in summer 2017 and to be available for sale by the end of this month. Negotiations with CityJet that could have resulted in a change in the ownership of Stobart Air have been terminated.
Reading the above stock market announcement it is clear to me that Stobart finds itself in the difficult position of having to run its own flights out of its own airport to try and get pax numbers up.
They need to decide if they are an airport operator or an aircraft operator. Trying to be both will not solve the underlying issue at the airport. They need to make the real estate attractive to airline customers, which so far they have failed to do.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In the sticks
Posts: 9,851
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Group has taken the decision to operate flights from LSA to up to 18 new destinations
In my eyes a Stobart franchise agreement means that Flybe will be offering brand awareness to the general public and will provide the on-line timetables under their umbrella all for a fee and without not much of a risk to their back pocket.
On the other hand Stobart Air will have to find the extra aircraft and if they want some sort of jet operation will have to wet lease some aircraft in that come with crew. If they don't fancy that it will be more of the same with a pure ATR operation flying more channel hopping flights which isn't a recipe for success. Stobart need a network that extends further than what an ATR can achieve. Stobart must know this but is it too late now to do anything about it and catch next years bookings?
Last edited by LTNman; 6th Dec 2016 at 05:53.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Essex
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but is it too late now to do anything about it and catch next years bookings?
I trust that Stobart will have the up to 18 destinations already in mind and will have started the planning process some time ago. If they haven't there is considerable room for making poor choices. Assuming that they can access some jets then Malta, Krakow, Corfu, Cologne and/or Dusseldorf should work. Maybe JOTA can provide an aircraft?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Milton Keynes
Posts: 1,070
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If JOTA provide an aircraft it will cost them. Their business model, like much of Titan's is to come in and lease when needed by other airlines and specialist charters- at a price. They could I guess set up an operation to do it for Stobart with a different model - certainty of operation at Stobart's risk. There are plenty of RJ85s about- five currently at Cranfield. I guess that would also be ok for the franchise- not sure Flybe would want their name on some small Eastern European operators jets (e.g. SmartLynx)
Dusseldorf is in ideal ATR territory and would be more efficiently served by a turboprop than a jet. Some slot issues there though so may be Dortmund or Munchen-Gladbach
Dusseldorf is in ideal ATR territory and would be more efficiently served by a turboprop than a jet. Some slot issues there though so may be Dortmund or Munchen-Gladbach
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Essex
Posts: 1,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For those old enough to remember this is like an episode of Dallas at its best. Stobart were clearly working simultaneously on an alternative to the Cityjet deal. Have they been devious, smart or have they made a 'dogs breakfast' of the whole business as as been suggested on these pages. I guess if you're a Stobaphobic (and there are a few) then the latter is the answer.
Cityjet or Flybe/Sobart? Well I am looking forward to reading what others have to say about how this could work for SEN. At least the Flybe option should be backed with enough resources to market the new routes and the organisation to ensure they hit the ground taxiing, Surely everyone will have learnt from previous mistakes and this could end up being good news for the airport's future?
Cityjet or Flybe/Sobart? Well I am looking forward to reading what others have to say about how this could work for SEN. At least the Flybe option should be backed with enough resources to market the new routes and the organisation to ensure they hit the ground taxiing, Surely everyone will have learnt from previous mistakes and this could end up being good news for the airport's future?
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think CityJet was ever a good prospect for SEN. They are a business airline with a reputation for high fares which is exactly NOT what SEN's market is.
Flybe are established, and have a presence in the area, plus this was Stobart control everything and make a margin at every step of the way.
Personally, I think it could be good, it could be good for the SEN, and also good for the airline, providing growth and possible new equipment ... interesting times I think
Flybe are established, and have a presence in the area, plus this was Stobart control everything and make a margin at every step of the way.
Personally, I think it could be good, it could be good for the SEN, and also good for the airline, providing growth and possible new equipment ... interesting times I think
To be honest, it looks like a bit of a disaster
Stobart now have to find "up to 18 new routes" for which they don't seem to have any a/c.
They could look to play around with their current ATR's to create some capacity, but the sort of routes they can service haven't proved to be a huge success in the past.
If they go for jets they have to buy at short notice (from where? those 146's are parked up for a reason) with all the costs of a new type and crewing etc or lease in - so BE take a cut and the operator takes a cut, so how much does that leave Stobart?
On the other hand, CityJet are left with a fleet of new jets, and no apparent focus. Moving away from SEN, the Aer Lingus Regional model looks a good one and the SSJ would have slotted in nicely between the Atr's and EI's Airbuses. Wouldn't have done the SSJ and CityJet any harm to have a solid customer like EI, either. Not saying that won't happen, but would have worked better.
Hopefully both parties have "plan B" in place and they come off.
Stobart now have to find "up to 18 new routes" for which they don't seem to have any a/c.
They could look to play around with their current ATR's to create some capacity, but the sort of routes they can service haven't proved to be a huge success in the past.
If they go for jets they have to buy at short notice (from where? those 146's are parked up for a reason) with all the costs of a new type and crewing etc or lease in - so BE take a cut and the operator takes a cut, so how much does that leave Stobart?
On the other hand, CityJet are left with a fleet of new jets, and no apparent focus. Moving away from SEN, the Aer Lingus Regional model looks a good one and the SSJ would have slotted in nicely between the Atr's and EI's Airbuses. Wouldn't have done the SSJ and CityJet any harm to have a solid customer like EI, either. Not saying that won't happen, but would have worked better.
Hopefully both parties have "plan B" in place and they come off.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: essex
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Judging on previous form i have my doubts as to whether there is a plan B
I'm unsure as to how you keep these negotiation and plans secret and piutting an SSJ into Southend a couple of months ago on a "familiarisation" pretty much gave the game away but would i be right in thinking that LCY could have put pressure / made incentives to Cityjet to pull out of this deal?
I'm nothing more than a keen observer / enthusiast but it looks to me like Stobarts have been backed into a corner with Flybe being the only viable option at present, i doubt they were in negotiations with them until the Cityjet deal went belly up and that appears to gone that way only in the last few days, surely Flybe are now in a position whereby Stobarts will have to bow down to them to get any sort of deal.
I love this airport, it's been part of my life in one way or another for 50 years but after the initial re-juvination things seems to be getting steadily worse under the Stobart stewardship!
I'm unsure as to how you keep these negotiation and plans secret and piutting an SSJ into Southend a couple of months ago on a "familiarisation" pretty much gave the game away but would i be right in thinking that LCY could have put pressure / made incentives to Cityjet to pull out of this deal?
I'm nothing more than a keen observer / enthusiast but it looks to me like Stobarts have been backed into a corner with Flybe being the only viable option at present, i doubt they were in negotiations with them until the Cityjet deal went belly up and that appears to gone that way only in the last few days, surely Flybe are now in a position whereby Stobarts will have to bow down to them to get any sort of deal.
I love this airport, it's been part of my life in one way or another for 50 years but after the initial re-juvination things seems to be getting steadily worse under the Stobart stewardship!