MANCHESTER - 9
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Saudia's now showing in the GDS - well in Sabre at least.
and bookable on Saudia website.
I know it's early and the coffee has yet to kick in, but it seems business 'value' fares are a lot cheaper than via LHR. Surely not?
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Thanks for the new times. They now appear across all platforms, but interestingly the old ones for SV198/199 are still in 'preview'. Obviously now, it appears some form of mistake.
Flights will operate from T2 and is yet another First class cabin being flown into Manchester.
Flights will operate from T2 and is yet another First class cabin being flown into Manchester.
Last edited by LAX_LHR; 20th Dec 2013 at 09:46.
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Germania will once again base an aircraft at MAN to run the Olympic holidays flights to Greece:
Heraklion:
Friday out 1755 in 0320
Tuesday out 1700 in 0225
Corfu:
Monday out 1600 in 2350
Kos:
Saturday out 1720 in 0250
Rhodes:
Wednesday out 1720 out 0350
Zante:
Sunday out 2330 in 0800
Obviously a lot still to be added (like daylight sectors), but a start.
Heraklion:
Friday out 1755 in 0320
Tuesday out 1700 in 0225
Corfu:
Monday out 1600 in 2350
Kos:
Saturday out 1720 in 0250
Rhodes:
Wednesday out 1720 out 0350
Zante:
Sunday out 2330 in 0800
Obviously a lot still to be added (like daylight sectors), but a start.
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Flights will operate from T2 and is yet another First class cabin being flown into Manchester.
Oddly enough the new B77W we're seeing more often at LHR don't have F at all.
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Davies Commission
Johnnychips, you are absolutely right about why Stansted didn't make it to the Davies short list. I'm always impressed by Bagso's passion for MAN - which is shared by many - but I thinks the facts speak for themselves.
I think there are three questions which were critical for MAN/MAG in relation to Davies.
1. Could expansion of regional airports (esp MAN) remove the need for new runway capacity in the London area?
Davies is clear on this one. Although there is a perception that the London airports are cluttered up with pax from the UK regions making connections, the actual numbers are quite small - a few millions. Even if all of these chose to fly from their local airport, either direct or via a different hub, it would be a drop in the ocean of London airport throughput. It might delay the need for a new runway by one or (at most) two years, but this is irrelevant in the context of the timescales being considered by Davies.
2. Leaving that aside, what more could be done to increase the usage of regional airports?
I think that MAG has reason to be a bit disappointed with Davies here. Davies dismisses such ideas as differential APD, tweaks to bilaterals etc, in a fairly high-handed way. MAG should challenge Davies on these and other points. But it doesn't really affect the fundamental point of the Davies report, namely that more runway capacity is needed in the London area.
3. Accepting that new runway capacity is needed in the London area, should STN have been on the short list?
The basic problem is the shortness of Davies's short list. He decided to have only two realistic options (LHR & LGW), and to consider further a new site on the Isle of Grain. That being the case, it is not surprising that STN failed to make the cut. Firstly, it was inevitable that LHR would be on the short list. While it has big problems in terms of its environmental impact (and politics), only government can ultimately weigh up the balance between those factors and the national interest. And with only one more real slot on the short list, LGW has a much stronger case than STN, in terms of its existing utilisation and strength of its airline mix, catchment area etc. STN's only advantage was the possibility that it might ultimately develop into a 4/5 runway hub, replacing LHR as the capital's key airport. But here Davies thought that Isle of Grain was a better bet for such a hub, partly because a STN hub would require a big reduction in the scale of LTN, thereby offsetting some of the capacity gain. So STN lost out on both grounds.
No doubt if Davies had added another airport to its short list then STN would have been the obvious bet. But I imagine that Davies wanted as short a list as possible, to justify the work of his commission.
And although MAG is no doubt embarrassed politically by the 'snub', it really has no impact on STN for the foreseeable future. No responsible owner (especially MAG's new Australian shareholders) could conceivably have proceeded with a second runway at STN in the face of a very uncertain financial return.
I think there are three questions which were critical for MAN/MAG in relation to Davies.
1. Could expansion of regional airports (esp MAN) remove the need for new runway capacity in the London area?
Davies is clear on this one. Although there is a perception that the London airports are cluttered up with pax from the UK regions making connections, the actual numbers are quite small - a few millions. Even if all of these chose to fly from their local airport, either direct or via a different hub, it would be a drop in the ocean of London airport throughput. It might delay the need for a new runway by one or (at most) two years, but this is irrelevant in the context of the timescales being considered by Davies.
2. Leaving that aside, what more could be done to increase the usage of regional airports?
I think that MAG has reason to be a bit disappointed with Davies here. Davies dismisses such ideas as differential APD, tweaks to bilaterals etc, in a fairly high-handed way. MAG should challenge Davies on these and other points. But it doesn't really affect the fundamental point of the Davies report, namely that more runway capacity is needed in the London area.
3. Accepting that new runway capacity is needed in the London area, should STN have been on the short list?
The basic problem is the shortness of Davies's short list. He decided to have only two realistic options (LHR & LGW), and to consider further a new site on the Isle of Grain. That being the case, it is not surprising that STN failed to make the cut. Firstly, it was inevitable that LHR would be on the short list. While it has big problems in terms of its environmental impact (and politics), only government can ultimately weigh up the balance between those factors and the national interest. And with only one more real slot on the short list, LGW has a much stronger case than STN, in terms of its existing utilisation and strength of its airline mix, catchment area etc. STN's only advantage was the possibility that it might ultimately develop into a 4/5 runway hub, replacing LHR as the capital's key airport. But here Davies thought that Isle of Grain was a better bet for such a hub, partly because a STN hub would require a big reduction in the scale of LTN, thereby offsetting some of the capacity gain. So STN lost out on both grounds.
No doubt if Davies had added another airport to its short list then STN would have been the obvious bet. But I imagine that Davies wanted as short a list as possible, to justify the work of his commission.
And although MAG is no doubt embarrassed politically by the 'snub', it really has no impact on STN for the foreseeable future. No responsible owner (especially MAG's new Australian shareholders) could conceivably have proceeded with a second runway at STN in the face of a very uncertain financial return.
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Maybe of interest to some, a list of confirmed new routes for 2014:
Condor:
Fuerteventura, Palma, Ibiza, Kos, Zante and Rhodes begin April/May.
Tobago begins 29th March on Sundays with B767/W
Monarch:
Hurgarda, Naples, Enfidha and Agadir begin April/May. Based aircraft increases to 12?
US Airways:
Charlotte begins 23rd May
Air Canada Rouge:
Toronto begins 26th June
TAP Portugal:
Lisbon increases to 11 weekly (there was a 12th weekly on Saturdays that seems to have disappeared)
Aegean:
Increase Athens to 3 weekly and increase season starting April instead of June.
Saudia:
Begin 3 weekly Jeddah on 1st April
Etihad:
Upgrade EY21/22 to B777-300ER from 1st June. EY15/16 remains A330-200.
Jet2:
Begin Vienna 3 weekly, Bergerac 2 weekly, Fuerteventura 2 weekly and Jersey 3 weekly from April. Many increases across other flights. Based aircraft increases to 15.
Ryanair:
Begin Bologna at 3 weekly. Many other schedule changed based aircraft remain at 6.
Easyjet:
Begin Catania at 2 weekly from May, Lyon continues as new route from W13. Based aircraft remains at 8.
Germania:
Return with a based A320. Schedules still being worked upon.
American Airlines:
Upgrade Chicago to B767-300 in April rather than June of previous years
Cathay Pacific:
Introduce the B747-800 on most flights.
Aer Lingus/regional
Shannon and Cork increased to 3 daily, Dublin increased to 6 daily on mix of EI/EIr.
Lufthansa Cargo:
B777F used on Tue/Sun, MD11 used Mon/Wed
Condor:
Fuerteventura, Palma, Ibiza, Kos, Zante and Rhodes begin April/May.
Tobago begins 29th March on Sundays with B767/W
Monarch:
Hurgarda, Naples, Enfidha and Agadir begin April/May. Based aircraft increases to 12?
US Airways:
Charlotte begins 23rd May
Air Canada Rouge:
Toronto begins 26th June
TAP Portugal:
Lisbon increases to 11 weekly (there was a 12th weekly on Saturdays that seems to have disappeared)
Aegean:
Increase Athens to 3 weekly and increase season starting April instead of June.
Saudia:
Begin 3 weekly Jeddah on 1st April
Etihad:
Upgrade EY21/22 to B777-300ER from 1st June. EY15/16 remains A330-200.
Jet2:
Begin Vienna 3 weekly, Bergerac 2 weekly, Fuerteventura 2 weekly and Jersey 3 weekly from April. Many increases across other flights. Based aircraft increases to 15.
Ryanair:
Begin Bologna at 3 weekly. Many other schedule changed based aircraft remain at 6.
Easyjet:
Begin Catania at 2 weekly from May, Lyon continues as new route from W13. Based aircraft remains at 8.
Germania:
Return with a based A320. Schedules still being worked upon.
American Airlines:
Upgrade Chicago to B767-300 in April rather than June of previous years
Cathay Pacific:
Introduce the B747-800 on most flights.
Aer Lingus/regional
Shannon and Cork increased to 3 daily, Dublin increased to 6 daily on mix of EI/EIr.
Lufthansa Cargo:
B777F used on Tue/Sun, MD11 used Mon/Wed
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LAX_LHR
Thanks for that
Couple of points.
Tobago. Does this run from March? I recently looked on the TCX website( which I now find is hopeless) There is no mention except by very devious means it will take you to the condor site but even they don't show it at present.
Also LS have been reducing a number of there frequencies recently one for example is BUD is down now to 5 per week. It was 6 earlier and 7 this year
Thanks for that
Couple of points.
Tobago. Does this run from March? I recently looked on the TCX website( which I now find is hopeless) There is no mention except by very devious means it will take you to the condor site but even they don't show it at present.
Also LS have been reducing a number of there frequencies recently one for example is BUD is down now to 5 per week. It was 6 earlier and 7 this year
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Hi Viscount.
Just to bring you up to speed as I have only just noticed your Ryanair Dublin question.
GDS is showing 5 daily every day except Tue and Thu which are 4 daily for Dublin.
In terms of Tobago, its showing as 1 weekly from 29th October on Sundays with B767-300 and 'operated by Condor', though I suspect it will eventually turn out to be operated by a MAN based A330 as that amount of positioning will certainly dent route profitability.
Also, as there is still some time to go, I will expect to see much more schedule tweaking from all of the MAN based operators.
In terms of GDS preview, I'm learning now to take it with a pinch of salt after SV198/199 actually turned out to be SV123/124 on 2 different days out of the 3 published!
Just to bring you up to speed as I have only just noticed your Ryanair Dublin question.
GDS is showing 5 daily every day except Tue and Thu which are 4 daily for Dublin.
In terms of Tobago, its showing as 1 weekly from 29th October on Sundays with B767-300 and 'operated by Condor', though I suspect it will eventually turn out to be operated by a MAN based A330 as that amount of positioning will certainly dent route profitability.
Also, as there is still some time to go, I will expect to see much more schedule tweaking from all of the MAN based operators.
In terms of GDS preview, I'm learning now to take it with a pinch of salt after SV198/199 actually turned out to be SV123/124 on 2 different days out of the 3 published!
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Vince Cable
Three points:
(1) If Vince thinks that about London, then stop whinging and do something about it. As a Libdem in a senior position in government (very rare indeed, unlikely to be repeated), he has had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
(2) MAN is not operating at 99% capacity and has the same number of rwys as LHR, not exactly a problem there. Davis has concentrated on LHR and LGW because LHR is full and LGW will be soon. LHR needed to double its rwy capacity years ago, MAN already has.
(3) Apart from a handful of restricive bilateral agreements, there are no impediments to carriers wishing to operate to/from MAN or any other UK airport. If they can make money, they will be there. It as simple as that.
(1) If Vince thinks that about London, then stop whinging and do something about it. As a Libdem in a senior position in government (very rare indeed, unlikely to be repeated), he has had a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
(2) MAN is not operating at 99% capacity and has the same number of rwys as LHR, not exactly a problem there. Davis has concentrated on LHR and LGW because LHR is full and LGW will be soon. LHR needed to double its rwy capacity years ago, MAN already has.
(3) Apart from a handful of restricive bilateral agreements, there are no impediments to carriers wishing to operate to/from MAN or any other UK airport. If they can make money, they will be there. It as simple as that.
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Hi Viscount.
Just to bring you up to speed as I have only just noticed your Ryanair Dublin question.
GDS is showing 5 daily every day except Tue and Thu which are 4 daily for Dublin.
In terms of Tobago, its showing as 1 weekly from 29th October on Sundays with B767-300 and 'operated by Condor', though I suspect it will eventually turn out to be operated by a MAN based A330 as that amount of positioning will certainly dent route profitability.
Also, as there is still some time to go, I will expect to see much more schedule tweaking from all of the MAN based operators.
In terms of GDS preview, I'm learning now to take it with a pinch of salt after SV198/199 actually turned out to be SV123/124 on 2 different days out of the 3 published!
Just to bring you up to speed as I have only just noticed your Ryanair Dublin question.
GDS is showing 5 daily every day except Tue and Thu which are 4 daily for Dublin.
In terms of Tobago, its showing as 1 weekly from 29th October on Sundays with B767-300 and 'operated by Condor', though I suspect it will eventually turn out to be operated by a MAN based A330 as that amount of positioning will certainly dent route profitability.
Also, as there is still some time to go, I will expect to see much more schedule tweaking from all of the MAN based operators.
In terms of GDS preview, I'm learning now to take it with a pinch of salt after SV198/199 actually turned out to be SV123/124 on 2 different days out of the 3 published!
I take your point about GDS. The systems available to you give any indication not available to others but that does not guarantee anything but do keep posting what comes up.
LS in past years have published a timetable and then overtime reduced frequencies so nothing new there. Disappointing though but posts still suggest 15 or 16 units ( with spares) although I can't on previous frequencies come up with more than 13.
The lastest TCX website for flights is now appalling . All it seems to do is list in Bold and fancy pictures the flights operating for the current and next season only you can't browse as you used to be able to do.
On FR posts elsewhere think as I do now that TUF and KTW have now gone-time will tell. Dublin is odd and picked up by others as reducing rather than increasing. Also the EI site doesn't show the Regional flights to Dublin or the increase to Cork. Not good for selling seats.
However as you say more changes are no doubt in the pipeline across the board.
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I think TUF has now gone full stop but Katowice may turn out to be a winter destination, as there are a few seasonal routes at MAN.
What MAN has been lucky with is the usual 'Ryanair Shuffle' with destinations, in which today MAN destination list, barring additions and the odd drop, looks broadly similar to the destination list Ryanair opened their base with.
In terms of EIr, I would imagine the extra flights will be added after the Christmas break now. The 6 daily Dublin flights were loaded a few months ago, but then the EIr flights seemed to drop off again.
Lastly, I agree the new Thomas Cook flights site is awful, very hard to navigate and I cannot see that one lasting long. In fact I would go as far to say the Thomas Cook flights and Condor ones could eventually be merged, as seen as there is a whole host of sharing resources going on now. It directs you to Condor for a lot of flights ex-MAN now anyway, in line with the condor base and codeshare.
What MAN has been lucky with is the usual 'Ryanair Shuffle' with destinations, in which today MAN destination list, barring additions and the odd drop, looks broadly similar to the destination list Ryanair opened their base with.
In terms of EIr, I would imagine the extra flights will be added after the Christmas break now. The 6 daily Dublin flights were loaded a few months ago, but then the EIr flights seemed to drop off again.
Lastly, I agree the new Thomas Cook flights site is awful, very hard to navigate and I cannot see that one lasting long. In fact I would go as far to say the Thomas Cook flights and Condor ones could eventually be merged, as seen as there is a whole host of sharing resources going on now. It directs you to Condor for a lot of flights ex-MAN now anyway, in line with the condor base and codeshare.
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I think most on here would agree the last 3 or 4 postings have been excellent !
Excellent rundown by Lax (as ever) for 2014.
I do want to make it clear I have never suggested MAN as a replacement for LHR, but given the chaotic , shambolic way in which this issue is has been handled I do think there was an opportunity to capitalise.
Given the evidence placed before him the options seem limited unless RW3 is a given and he is merely paying lip service to the other options.
There seems to be some blindingly obvious facts which missed which tend to undermine the whole premise of what he has come up with.
(join me behind the barricades Basil )
Excellent rundown by Lax (as ever) for 2014.
I do want to make it clear I have never suggested MAN as a replacement for LHR, but given the chaotic , shambolic way in which this issue is has been handled I do think there was an opportunity to capitalise.
Given the evidence placed before him the options seem limited unless RW3 is a given and he is merely paying lip service to the other options.
There seems to be some blindingly obvious facts which missed which tend to undermine the whole premise of what he has come up with.
(join me behind the barricades Basil )
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And for balanced debate, a list of routes/frequencies not continuing in 2014:
bmi regional:
Drop Antwerp, Lyon and Edinburgh
Easyjet:
Moscow down to 2 weekly from March. There are bound to be other decreases to accommodate growth on other routes.
Ryanair:
Tours has gone, Katowice gone but may be seasonal. Warsaw down to 2 weekly. As easyjet other decreases are likely
Virgin little red riding hood slot sitting service:
Heathrow down to 3 daily from March
Germanwings:
Stuttgart gone (I really hope another carrier picks this up, always seen high loads and reasonable yield, I fear it was a victim of the re-shuffles that ensued after brought from Lufthansa)
Norwegian:
Stockholm seems to drop from a peak of 5 weekly this year to just 2 weekly next year. Oslo also takes a break for 2 months around July. Id be surprised to see any growth from them next year, the North west seems to have taken a huge hit with LPL-CPH going as well as these decreases.
There may be more but frankly its Friday night and were it not for Antibiotics I would be enjoying a drink or 2 now....
bmi regional:
Drop Antwerp, Lyon and Edinburgh
Easyjet:
Moscow down to 2 weekly from March. There are bound to be other decreases to accommodate growth on other routes.
Ryanair:
Tours has gone, Katowice gone but may be seasonal. Warsaw down to 2 weekly. As easyjet other decreases are likely
Virgin little red riding hood slot sitting service:
Heathrow down to 3 daily from March
Germanwings:
Stuttgart gone (I really hope another carrier picks this up, always seen high loads and reasonable yield, I fear it was a victim of the re-shuffles that ensued after brought from Lufthansa)
Norwegian:
Stockholm seems to drop from a peak of 5 weekly this year to just 2 weekly next year. Oslo also takes a break for 2 months around July. Id be surprised to see any growth from them next year, the North west seems to have taken a huge hit with LPL-CPH going as well as these decreases.
There may be more but frankly its Friday night and were it not for Antibiotics I would be enjoying a drink or 2 now....
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Revealed: Manchester's top 10 holiday destinatioins from Manchester Airport - Manchester Evening News
Based on these figures next year will see Dubai replace Heathrow as main connecting hub I guess !
really not sure who "flies" to London for shopping , sightseeing etc
Based on these figures next year will see Dubai replace Heathrow as main connecting hub I guess !
really not sure who "flies" to London for shopping , sightseeing etc
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Viscount. Re LS.
I recall a month or so back someone on here or another site listed the increased frequencies on a significant number of their routes. These, together with the 3 new routes would certainly have meant at least 1 extra based a/c, possibly 2.
If it turns out to be 13 based, is this without a spare a/c, and how does that compare with S2013?
Anyway, thanks to you and LAX-LHR for your input re gains and losses for S2014.
On Easyjet, I'm sure they said the 2 Moscow flights being dropped would be replaced by an extra Athens and another Greek destination (can't remember which).
Norwegian is disappointing, more so in view of the rumour of a base at MAN.
Personally, I still don't think it's yet clear how 2014 will pan out in terms of seat capacity.
I recall a month or so back someone on here or another site listed the increased frequencies on a significant number of their routes. These, together with the 3 new routes would certainly have meant at least 1 extra based a/c, possibly 2.
If it turns out to be 13 based, is this without a spare a/c, and how does that compare with S2013?
Anyway, thanks to you and LAX-LHR for your input re gains and losses for S2014.
On Easyjet, I'm sure they said the 2 Moscow flights being dropped would be replaced by an extra Athens and another Greek destination (can't remember which).
Norwegian is disappointing, more so in view of the rumour of a base at MAN.
Personally, I still don't think it's yet clear how 2014 will pan out in terms of seat capacity.
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MANFOD The 13 based for RYR is an "aspiration", a year or 5 down the line !
I think we would all be dancing round the Christmas Tree and polishing our baubles if that came to pass in 2014 ! ( As long of course that it was new destinations/increased freq and not duplication)
The EZY destination you are looking for is Thessalonica.
Really frustrating re Moscow at least EZY are giving it a good go re advertising on local radio in Manchester BUT this should have been done 12 months ago in the lead in period, and certainly not now the service is effectively being slashed by 50%.
Joined up thinking comes to mind ?
EZY did say they were after more business routes ex MAN and at 4 a week this was at least dooable, although no doubt most will stick with KL, LH etc.
Unless you are very easy going the times have to fit around the business not the other way round, that said for some maybe delaying or organising visits/appts over the 4 day flight window , coupled of course to the lower cost was a benefit. You would no doubt also waste half a day both back and forth by going via another hub.
My worry is that I don't see it coming back at a reasonable level.
With the su[port we are NOW seeing and had it been successful at 4 it "might" have gone daily which would really have increased critical mass further, a "daily" offers that complete flexibility ......but 4 to 2 makes things more desperate !
2 a week whilst ok for leisure is a waste of time for business, and this at a time when trade with the NWest and across Russia is up 21% (again I appreciate not all of that will be in Moscow of course).
I think we would all be dancing round the Christmas Tree and polishing our baubles if that came to pass in 2014 ! ( As long of course that it was new destinations/increased freq and not duplication)
The EZY destination you are looking for is Thessalonica.
Really frustrating re Moscow at least EZY are giving it a good go re advertising on local radio in Manchester BUT this should have been done 12 months ago in the lead in period, and certainly not now the service is effectively being slashed by 50%.
Joined up thinking comes to mind ?
EZY did say they were after more business routes ex MAN and at 4 a week this was at least dooable, although no doubt most will stick with KL, LH etc.
Unless you are very easy going the times have to fit around the business not the other way round, that said for some maybe delaying or organising visits/appts over the 4 day flight window , coupled of course to the lower cost was a benefit. You would no doubt also waste half a day both back and forth by going via another hub.
My worry is that I don't see it coming back at a reasonable level.
With the su[port we are NOW seeing and had it been successful at 4 it "might" have gone daily which would really have increased critical mass further, a "daily" offers that complete flexibility ......but 4 to 2 makes things more desperate !
2 a week whilst ok for leisure is a waste of time for business, and this at a time when trade with the NWest and across Russia is up 21% (again I appreciate not all of that will be in Moscow of course).
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Is there any particular reason Etihad are operating MAN-DUB-MAN today?
A6-ETI B777 operating EY8021/8022.
Both DUB flights are operating today and the aircraft is only on the ground for about 50 minutes?
A6-ETI B777 operating EY8021/8022.
Both DUB flights are operating today and the aircraft is only on the ground for about 50 minutes?