MANCHESTER - 9
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Not just trains. We're actually talking about surface access to Manchester Airport by public transport generally. Big changes are afoot with the imminent opening of Metrolink to the city and the fourth heavy rail platform for inter-city trains. A major opportunity exists for MAG to push forward its policy of encouraging increased usage of public transport by both passengers and staff. This includes existing users and others who may be attracted to use Manchester Airport by more practical transportation options from their localities.
Of course we're interested in discussing new air service expansion. But in order for new services to succeed good surface access to the airport must be provided. Significant improvements on this front are vital to the success of Manchester Airport in their own right. If you consider the big picture and the customers' door-to-door journey in real life (as opposed to just runway to runway) you will understand the logic and importance of the topic. No need to bang your head like that!
Of course we're interested in discussing new air service expansion. But in order for new services to succeed good surface access to the airport must be provided. Significant improvements on this front are vital to the success of Manchester Airport in their own right. If you consider the big picture and the customers' door-to-door journey in real life (as opposed to just runway to runway) you will understand the logic and importance of the topic. No need to bang your head like that!
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I understand where you're coming from but the head banging is the emoticon for frustration which, in this case is borne of the lack of debate about two of the biggest positive developments to affect MAN in its history.
I suspect it is because hardly any of the posters on this forum are actually 'in the know'.
I suspect it is because hardly any of the posters on this forum are actually 'in the know'.
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If Saudia are already able to fill Y Class, I genuinely hope that FlyNas have a decent sales-rep talking to the leading ethnic travel agencies as a matter of urgency. Customers clearly exist … FlyNas just isn't reaching the market.
All names taken … I agree with your assessment reference discussion of the 'big ticket' topics you raise. I'm sure those subjects will be discussed to death once clear information emerges into the public domain. In the meantime, speculation and wishlists are of limited value. I will contribute to discussion if I feel I can add something new to the thread knowledge-base, but prefer not to post empty speculation for the sake of it. It is quite likely that afew regulars here are 'in the know' but they will be restricted by confidentiality considerations. Best regards.
PS. Ever since first posting on the subject of Saudia and FlyNas on this and another well-known forum I've been receiving loads of banner ads for Hajj and Umrah packages. Some of the prices look very attractive for the exotic flying element alone … but I'm not sure the Saudis will be admitting an Infidel like me to their country any time soon! Meanwhile, Tesco is marketing 'Ramadan Mubarak' groceries (delivered to my door) right here on the PPRuNe page. I'm not sure what they are. Perhaps I should order some. Maybe FlyNas should talk to Google and the like ...
All names taken … I agree with your assessment reference discussion of the 'big ticket' topics you raise. I'm sure those subjects will be discussed to death once clear information emerges into the public domain. In the meantime, speculation and wishlists are of limited value. I will contribute to discussion if I feel I can add something new to the thread knowledge-base, but prefer not to post empty speculation for the sake of it. It is quite likely that afew regulars here are 'in the know' but they will be restricted by confidentiality considerations. Best regards.
PS. Ever since first posting on the subject of Saudia and FlyNas on this and another well-known forum I've been receiving loads of banner ads for Hajj and Umrah packages. Some of the prices look very attractive for the exotic flying element alone … but I'm not sure the Saudis will be admitting an Infidel like me to their country any time soon! Meanwhile, Tesco is marketing 'Ramadan Mubarak' groceries (delivered to my door) right here on the PPRuNe page. I'm not sure what they are. Perhaps I should order some. Maybe FlyNas should talk to Google and the like ...
Last edited by Shed-on-a-Pole; 22nd Jun 2014 at 16:31.
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Quoting Capetonian re SV loads:
"Booked :
F5 (capacity 24)
C16 (38)
Y 171 (170)"
If 189 was the final figure, the booked numbers suggest 3 no-shows, but F & C combined is 1/3 occupancy. That doesn't strike me as too bad, and the total load of 189 is about 82% LF on the 232 seat a/c. If that is typical, I imagine SV will be pretty pleased in the first 3 months of operation.
"Booked :
F5 (capacity 24)
C16 (38)
Y 171 (170)"
If 189 was the final figure, the booked numbers suggest 3 no-shows, but F & C combined is 1/3 occupancy. That doesn't strike me as too bad, and the total load of 189 is about 82% LF on the 232 seat a/c. If that is typical, I imagine SV will be pretty pleased in the first 3 months of operation.
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That depends on the yields (which I could work out and publish but clearly that is confidential commercial information).
The majority of the passengers were on fairly heavily discounted tickets in lower yield buckets, fairly typical of that ethnic market. Only 16 in full Y and and none in full C class. Similar loads over the next few days.
The majority of the passengers were on fairly heavily discounted tickets in lower yield buckets, fairly typical of that ethnic market. Only 16 in full Y and and none in full C class. Similar loads over the next few days.
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I sincerely hope i am wrong but it appears to me that a certain airline are being left to swing in the breeze.
Now that may be of their own doing, so be it.....
but if other competition on the route did not exist ill bet somebody / somewhere would have been a wee bit more agile in retaining this destination, if Allah forbids there were only one operator.
Seems to me there is a bit of complacency in the air !
I don't want to quote the line
"We are alright Jack"with a smirk.
....but I recall a similar level of smugness when the locos arrived at Liverpool in the early 90s.
Not sure how many times I have to repeat this but we are not LHR we should not miss ANY opportunity. .
I am sick to the back to the teeth of this gain 3 lose 1 mentality!
Make every route offered by EVERY airline work !
It really is not that difficult. ......to at least try !
Now that may be of their own doing, so be it.....
but if other competition on the route did not exist ill bet somebody / somewhere would have been a wee bit more agile in retaining this destination, if Allah forbids there were only one operator.
Seems to me there is a bit of complacency in the air !
I don't want to quote the line
"We are alright Jack"with a smirk.
....but I recall a similar level of smugness when the locos arrived at Liverpool in the early 90s.
Not sure how many times I have to repeat this but we are not LHR we should not miss ANY opportunity. .
I am sick to the back to the teeth of this gain 3 lose 1 mentality!
Make every route offered by EVERY airline work !
It really is not that difficult. ......to at least try !
Last edited by Bagso; 22nd Jun 2014 at 21:02.
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Capetonian - Without breaching confidentiality, are you able to confirm whether the bulk of passengers were ending their journeys in Saudi Arabia? It would be interesting to learn whether there are efforts to feed flights beyond Saudi to markets such as Pakistan and India. Thanks for your info.
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Quick answer ......... yes.
But can't do it right now, will try to remember to do it later or tomorrow. In order not to breach any confidentiality I will just say :
Out of 'x' passengers, 'y' are connecting to destinations beyond SA. That information is not confidential, anyone willing to pay (lots of money!) for it can get full details from the MIDT figures.
But can't do it right now, will try to remember to do it later or tomorrow. In order not to breach any confidentiality I will just say :
Out of 'x' passengers, 'y' are connecting to destinations beyond SA. That information is not confidential, anyone willing to pay (lots of money!) for it can get full details from the MIDT figures.
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Done, quickly.
60 pax connecting onwards within 24 hours. >24 hours is not considered as connecting and it would be a bigger job to pull that stat.
57 to destinations within SA (majority to RUH), ergo, 3 to an international destination.
Looking at loads over the next few flights, those figures are pretty typical, in fact some have less international onward connecions.
(For avoidance of doubt SA is correct ISO code for Saudi Arabia,
South Africa is ZA)
60 pax connecting onwards within 24 hours. >24 hours is not considered as connecting and it would be a bigger job to pull that stat.
57 to destinations within SA (majority to RUH), ergo, 3 to an international destination.
Looking at loads over the next few flights, those figures are pretty typical, in fact some have less international onward connecions.
(For avoidance of doubt SA is correct ISO code for Saudi Arabia,
South Africa is ZA)
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Thanks for that information, Capetonian. And what a revealing statistic that is. Just 3 out of 192 booked passengers continuing travel beyond Saudi Arabia. WOW!!! So underlying demand for travel to Saudi Arabia itself is pretty strong to/from NW England (at the right price). And for FlyNas, there must be significant brand-awareness at the Jeddah end of the route. Maybe Saudia is winning on price?
One consideration which had crossed my mind … and it may be totally "out there", so feedback is welcome. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is fiercely proud of its role as the guardian of Islam's holiest sites. The emblems and logos on Saudia aircraft relate to the Qu'ran and each aircraft carries the slogan "God Bless You" on the front of the fuselage. The airline is an extension of the country's Islamic identity and ideals. It also reflects the Saudi Royal Family's Muslim values internationally.
As such, yield on fares may not be the only consideration at play here. Saudi Arabia is over 99% Muslim (excluding foreign guest workers). 85%+ of these are Sunnis, and many of those are Wahhabis - following a particularly devout, ultra-conservative interpretation of Islam. As such, the 'Five Pillars of Islam' govern every facet of life. One of these - Zakat - relates to charitable giving, a sacred duty to every Muslim of means. Another is Hajj - the sacred duty to make pilgrimage to the holy sites.
For a devout Muslim, there can be few greater gifts to another Muslim than to assist in enabling a less financially-able pilgrim to visit the holy sites. Saudia - an extension of the immensely wealthy and supremely devout Kingdom - is in a position to provide affordable travel to those holy sites. Commercial YIELD may not be the key driver in this case … putting the sacred duty of pilgrimage within the financial reach of additional devout Muslims could be a far greater consideration. It can form part of Saudi Arabia's gift to the wider Islamic community. Money is a total afterthought to religious obligations … Saudi Arabia has financed grand mosques in many other countries. Maximising access to the holy sites is considered an honourable religious duty.
Of course, whilst Saudia is an extension of the Islamic Kingdom, FlyNas is a private commercial concern (albeit owned by a reportedly wealthy backer). Perhaps they must provide fares governed by commercial returns rather than operating as a conduit to discounted sacred pilgrimage travel?
Certainly, Saudi Arabia deeply values its role as home to Islam's holiest sites. Is it a stretch to suppose that the state airline is subsidising pilgrimage travel to maximise numbers able to visit them? Observing the Five Pillars is absolutely fundamental to devout Muslims. Enabling others to do so is deeply honourable. It is perhaps a far greater consideration than maximising yield on economy ticket sales ...
One consideration which had crossed my mind … and it may be totally "out there", so feedback is welcome. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is fiercely proud of its role as the guardian of Islam's holiest sites. The emblems and logos on Saudia aircraft relate to the Qu'ran and each aircraft carries the slogan "God Bless You" on the front of the fuselage. The airline is an extension of the country's Islamic identity and ideals. It also reflects the Saudi Royal Family's Muslim values internationally.
As such, yield on fares may not be the only consideration at play here. Saudi Arabia is over 99% Muslim (excluding foreign guest workers). 85%+ of these are Sunnis, and many of those are Wahhabis - following a particularly devout, ultra-conservative interpretation of Islam. As such, the 'Five Pillars of Islam' govern every facet of life. One of these - Zakat - relates to charitable giving, a sacred duty to every Muslim of means. Another is Hajj - the sacred duty to make pilgrimage to the holy sites.
For a devout Muslim, there can be few greater gifts to another Muslim than to assist in enabling a less financially-able pilgrim to visit the holy sites. Saudia - an extension of the immensely wealthy and supremely devout Kingdom - is in a position to provide affordable travel to those holy sites. Commercial YIELD may not be the key driver in this case … putting the sacred duty of pilgrimage within the financial reach of additional devout Muslims could be a far greater consideration. It can form part of Saudi Arabia's gift to the wider Islamic community. Money is a total afterthought to religious obligations … Saudi Arabia has financed grand mosques in many other countries. Maximising access to the holy sites is considered an honourable religious duty.
Of course, whilst Saudia is an extension of the Islamic Kingdom, FlyNas is a private commercial concern (albeit owned by a reportedly wealthy backer). Perhaps they must provide fares governed by commercial returns rather than operating as a conduit to discounted sacred pilgrimage travel?
Certainly, Saudi Arabia deeply values its role as home to Islam's holiest sites. Is it a stretch to suppose that the state airline is subsidising pilgrimage travel to maximise numbers able to visit them? Observing the Five Pillars is absolutely fundamental to devout Muslims. Enabling others to do so is deeply honourable. It is perhaps a far greater consideration than maximising yield on economy ticket sales ...
Ref JED. It would also be interesting to know how the freight loads have been so far, and whether Saudia is getting the lion's share of that as well ?
A healthy revenue base downstairs gives an airline more ability to withstand lower yields and/or demand in the passenger cabin, especially with 777 and A330 aircraft which have plenty of volume available under the floor for freight.
A healthy revenue base downstairs gives an airline more ability to withstand lower yields and/or demand in the passenger cabin, especially with 777 and A330 aircraft which have plenty of volume available under the floor for freight.
Goes to show just how many Saudis live in the greater Manchester area, and reflects extremely poorly on the marketing department of FlyNas
As an aside, is Saudi Arabia the only place currently in existence where the ruling family named the entire country after themselves? Maybe Britain should be called "Habsburg Island"? Just a thought.....
As an aside, is Saudi Arabia the only place currently in existence where the ruling family named the entire country after themselves? Maybe Britain should be called "Habsburg Island"? Just a thought.....
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Chancellor George Osborne set to announce plans for new 'HS3' line between Manchester and Leeds - Manchester Evening News
Election in the offing ?
At bloody last, this is more important than Hs2 and more relevant..but what about Liverpool ?
I think we should all toast Evan Davies for this.
MAG could do with somebody with this vision !
With Manchester at the centre this can only be a boom for Manchester Airport.
Re Saudi, thee largest followers to holy sites from Birm to Hull to South Yorks to Lancs are actually from Pakistan not Saudi.
...that may or may not be relevant to Arabic thinking but either way it's a massive market.
Here's an innovative idea why not push Jeddah and The HOLY SITES on twitter/Facebook in various languages targeted at specific groups ....its free
AND may be comercially more rewarding than the current campaign
ie ....10% off breakfast
Election in the offing ?
At bloody last, this is more important than Hs2 and more relevant..but what about Liverpool ?
I think we should all toast Evan Davies for this.
MAG could do with somebody with this vision !
With Manchester at the centre this can only be a boom for Manchester Airport.
Re Saudi, thee largest followers to holy sites from Birm to Hull to South Yorks to Lancs are actually from Pakistan not Saudi.
...that may or may not be relevant to Arabic thinking but either way it's a massive market.
Here's an innovative idea why not push Jeddah and The HOLY SITES on twitter/Facebook in various languages targeted at specific groups ....its free
AND may be comercially more rewarding than the current campaign
ie ....10% off breakfast
Last edited by Bagso; 23rd Jun 2014 at 05:59.
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Shed : I would be wary of placing too much interpretation on those figures, although you make some very valid points.
It is possible that some of those pax are continuing to destinations outside SA but with a gap of greater than 24 hours.
Others may be continuing on tickets sourced elsewhere, for example going to Pakistan using tickets sourced in that country. Ethnic agents in the UK and elsewhere are very skilled at finding the best deals through wide networks of contacts.
Neither would show on the lists that I have pulled, although it would be possible but very time consuming to get such details (which is why MIDT data is so expensive!).
Despite the demonisation of Islam which has been, understandably, brought about by the deeds of a number of fanatical murdering scum, and despite what we may see as primitive and unacceptable practices in some Muslim countries, I would add that I have spent some time in Saudi, and also elsewhere doing some work for Saudia, and was treated with kindness, generosity, and courtesy.
It is possible that some of those pax are continuing to destinations outside SA but with a gap of greater than 24 hours.
Others may be continuing on tickets sourced elsewhere, for example going to Pakistan using tickets sourced in that country. Ethnic agents in the UK and elsewhere are very skilled at finding the best deals through wide networks of contacts.
Neither would show on the lists that I have pulled, although it would be possible but very time consuming to get such details (which is why MIDT data is so expensive!).
Despite the demonisation of Islam which has been, understandably, brought about by the deeds of a number of fanatical murdering scum, and despite what we may see as primitive and unacceptable practices in some Muslim countries, I would add that I have spent some time in Saudi, and also elsewhere doing some work for Saudia, and was treated with kindness, generosity, and courtesy.
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While Saudi offer decent international connections, both RUH and JED are absolutely awful to transit through and you'd have to be either brave, stupid or very adventurous to use them (I fell into the stupid and adventurous category).
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The vision, comment, tone of the Osbourne speech re HS3 on enhancing Manchester as a powerhouse to London is almost exclusively lifted from the first class BBC2 programme "Mind The Gap", presented by Evan Davies and aired over 6 months ago.
Sorry, no original thinking from the Chancellor here I'm afraid !
If it does come off (this side of 2050) and with the metrolink expansion to the airport plus crossrail Manchester it really will offer some excellent connectivity in respect of Man Airport.
On a theme Transport for London of have been spouting copious amounts of hot air re domestic connectivity or lack of it at Heathrow and how a 3rd runway will bring back those connections, hopefully in circa 15 years time when the thing actually gets built.
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cm...onnections.pdf
Maybe somebody at MAG could respond by indicating that Manchester serves more than double the domestic airports served by LHR and LGW as at, er NOW !
If you couple our 12 routes plus the easy road/rail connection to 5 other major cities which are less than an hour away, connectivity to long haul at Manchester is not that far behind Amsterdam !
Sorry, no original thinking from the Chancellor here I'm afraid !
If it does come off (this side of 2050) and with the metrolink expansion to the airport plus crossrail Manchester it really will offer some excellent connectivity in respect of Man Airport.
On a theme Transport for London of have been spouting copious amounts of hot air re domestic connectivity or lack of it at Heathrow and how a 3rd runway will bring back those connections, hopefully in circa 15 years time when the thing actually gets built.
https://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cm...onnections.pdf
Maybe somebody at MAG could respond by indicating that Manchester serves more than double the domestic airports served by LHR and LGW as at, er NOW !
If you couple our 12 routes plus the easy road/rail connection to 5 other major cities which are less than an hour away, connectivity to long haul at Manchester is not that far behind Amsterdam !